Card Draw & Card Advantage | The Command Zone 127

[@apanapane]

Main topic starts at 03:24.

[@ChrisThe1]

god

[@roguewookiee]

Mvp

[@el_duck6577]

apanapane no it starts at 0:20

[@ty_sylicus]

This was a good episode guys. Thank you. I've been neglecting card draw as well as ramp in my decks for years. Largely due to rarely playing with Blue or Green but, also bc I just don't prioritize it. Your podcast has offered me perspective. Now I'm trying to improve my decks and play.

[@shawndiaz7528]

I'm surprised that this isn't stated in the video somewhere (long podcast, might have missed it honestly), but the value of card advantage, card selection, and tutors is largely related to the average power level of cards in a given deck vs the number of bombs. My Sram deck plays like 40 or 50 nearly worthless cards and less than 10 bombs so when I can tutor out a bomb it's card disadvantage, but it's way better than drawing a card or even 3 cards AT PARODY which is most often going to result in a different handfull of bad cards. In decks playing a lot of powerful cards (value-style decks), you want more card selection and still a good amount of draw. In decks with all synergy and very few standout bombs, card draw is all you need because you have natural advantage from all the synergy.

[@Duranous1]

The blue enchantment "Compulsion" is one of my new favorite card advantage engine. As a disclaimer it is firmly a budget card (cough, cough necropotence) and outclassed by tutor effects in the short run. It is definitely more power to have a rummage engine then you might think at first (especially since tutor engines are few and far between) it is decently powerful mid game to upgrade dead cards and a house late game to dig for a win con. This card requires very little effort to get advantage out of and it safely flies under the radar of your opponents usually. It is also worth noting that as far as discard outlets go, this is pretty top tier. I have only recently started testing it out I can attribute a couple of wins to the advantage it specifically generated already. It maybe still be fridge but its a fun budget card none-the-less.

[@rynotopdeckryno3726]

Jimmy- your avacyn problem can be solved byy favorite blue spell, reality shift (1u, exile target creature, its controller manifests the top card of their library)

[@amphetamean66X]

I think this is a good way to break it down. Phyrexian Arena creates card draw but technically it's not immediate card draw. I think generally something that draws you two or more cards right away is true card draw. One to replace the card you had and one or more extra. In some ways cards like Divination can be better than Phyrexian Arena and here's why. A lot of times in Commander you need to draw lands right away. Even when you run 40 lands sometimes you gets stuck on 3 and Phyrexian Arena gets you there for sure eventually but sometimes you need it right away and just casting Divination gets you there faster. It all depends on your deck though. I think the reason card draw is so important is that you need to find your lands and have more options of cards in your deck. I do agree though card draw is card advantage but not all card advantage is card draw. If you have one card in hand and it's Supreme Verdict if you cast it you now have no cards in hand but if you had Divination you will then have two options. You made one card two. Now that's not to say don't play Supreme Verdict though. You need to also include card advantage cards. The best decks in magic especially in commander have lots of draw spells and card advantage. When I'm running black I usually include Phyrexian Arena but I also include Read the Bones and other card draw cards. It also often times depends on the deck and if your commander helps you draw cards or not. Drawing cards help you have fun. Playing fun 2-3 drops is fun but you want to get to your 5-9 drops as soon as possible that's when the true Commander magic happens.

[@snakeman830]

When discussing Sylvan Library, you mentioned that everyone would die to have a card that lets you pick which of the top three cards of your deck you draw each turn. I'm rather surprised you didn't know Mirri's Guile exists! It is an enchantment that does exactly that, and only costs G!

[@700NitroXpress]

I use it in my Meren deck, if the cards aren't good, just cycle Krosan Tusker.

[@jtyree0226]

Sylvan library is card draw advantage and card selection. While mirris guile is only card selection that doesn't put you up on cards. With that being said I still like the card a lot

[@spencersonnier1]

Let me brag on how awesome Card Kingdom is. So me and a friend of mine made buylist of cards to send in for store credit and went halves on the shipping costs for 1 package instead of 2. Weren't sure if they would be able to take it or not so my friend emailed them and they responded within the hour and answered several questions. Fast forward to this past Tuesday, our store credit hit, and it was lower than I thought so I emailed just to see what happened and they said it had to do with conditions of the cards which was something I had neglected to consider. So I place my order around midnight on Tuesday night going into Wednesday morning and I check the tracking for the order and it was expected for Saturday. I checked it again last night out of curiosity and it was already at the post office in my city and today my friend and my orders arrived. As always it was very nicely packaged and with some of the cards I ordered versions that weren't near mint because they were cheaper, but after checking the cards after they arrived, they all seem to be in NM condition. I'm very satisfied with card kingdom and will continue to use them for everything. Keep up the good work guys!

[@joshleekwai8895]

This is great to hear and makes us proud to have Card Kingdom as our sponsor. Thanks for sharing!

[@colinjustice420]

I feel how you should think of wraths in card advantage is that they can be catch ups. If you are winning a wrath will not get you more advantage, but it you are behind it can get you back in it.

[@FhtagnCthulhu]

I really love Outpost Siege for mono red card 'draw'. Cheap card, and I don't see much of it around, but it's worked well for me.

[@cheesemedley144]

Thank you for this video and many others you've done. I'm new to the format and this helps so much

[@VMSelvaggio]

27:18 Merfolk Looter vs. Rummaging Goblin -- The difference between Seeing an extra card, or gambling first and hoping that you draw better after you've discarded.

[@thevanmansam3107]

6:04 is when I started thinking of MTG on on a much higher level. Thanks for the knowledge 👌

[@BrettTS]

Mindswipe X + UR, counter target spell deal X damage to the spell's caster. 29:36

[@mino82so11]

It's curious psuedo card-draw isn't brought up, such as Dark Confidant and Dark Tutelage. For certain metas, there'd be cases Dark Confidant is the more useful than Dark Tutelage and Phyrexian Arena for its cheap casting cost and card type (and the life loss between the three are negligible). The fact Confidant and Tutelage are psuedo-draw cards enables evasion from Consecrated Sphinx and Notion Thief abilities.

[@ultraviolentkingofthedeath4817]

Kevin Tran bob and tutelage are good cards but u need a realtively low cmc curve arena is pretty good too but i feel its got weaker cuz of mulligan change i personally fill cards like treasure cruise necropotence harmonize skullclamp etc are the best ways to draw cards arena is relatively slow and prone to removal

[@mino82so11]

The decks most appropriate to house Bob and Tutelage are highly competitive decks and the avg. CMC of all my decks are never above three.

[@maximefaille610]

Thank you so much for this. I have been playing magic for a long time and those terms are not the easiest to teach to new players. I just sent them this video and now they know why I win haha! Good job guys!

[@edwardfisher6087]

Amazing work guys, please don't every stop doing this!!!! All of your content just makes my day!!!

[@joshleekwai8895]

Thanks! That's awesome to hear!

[@Festentorsdag]

A topic idea, What's fun to play against? I happend to see my playgroup involve into more and more competitive deck and with new commanders such as Leovold as a wheel effect deck, but also old commanders like prossh with food chain. This makes the games goes faster, but it also starts to make some strategies less effective, and i'm seeing people being less likely to come and play commander on sundays as we use too. So i guess it is a question of how to adress this problem, cause you could have the deck that answers Leovold's wheel effect all the time, but now is that person having fun playing or are you being the one who have to have the answer. This turns the games into control matchups, where those who prefer taking an aggresive rout is still likely to find better use of their time. It gets more of a social issue of fitting everyone in or making a playgroup for hardcore and one for softcore or maybe motivate your group to play for the fun rather than the win. Have you got experience with this? Being a podcast or not, I'd still like to hear your thoughts.

[@PAPP0NE]

Play edric and go under leovold?

[@BoomBoom54543]

I've run into this problem with my own playgroup and the solution I came up with was to put a budget cap on everyone's deck. 100$ per deck or no cards over $5. limitations breed creativity and some interesting synergies have come to bear.

[@big53mac]

Swagamemnon does the 5 dollar limit includ the comander?

[@themadgamer4571]

Cardkingdom is my go to, not having a LGS where I am at. Gotta travel, but to check prices on my pulls, or if I need something specific I'm at Cardkingdom, loyal fan for sure.

[@matthewgragg2152]

Card draw like Mana ramp is like skipping ahead several turns. It's like you're on turn 9, where everyone one else is on turn 4.

[@bquel5800]

I'm a bit put back by the lack really mention of like reclaim effects I'd claim they can count as card draw if you get multiple cards out of it

[@erubin100]

Personally, I believe "card advantage" means having more options available in your hand vs your opponent. I wouldn't really count tutors because most only trade one for one, and if your opponent eliminates that one option, you have nothing to follow up. That being said, I would count "field advantage" as a separate entity. Like, if you can run a boardwipe that kills more of your opponent's permanents than yours, you have field advantage. BUT that won't really matter if you don't have the hand advantage to back it up.

[@JSuperfly]

card kingdom shipping to the uk is actually very reasonable. i order all my singles from there

[@summerstream4809]

9:35 If u trade everything into 1 piece advantage, you will draw rather winning. Most chess players trade for better positioning and ultimately promotion opportunities.

[@arunpremanand4891]

I asked long ago, but I am still interested in seeing your Child of Alara Lands deck. If you are finished with it, I would love to see it

[@joshleekwai8895]

Really want to do an episode on it at some point - when that happens I will definitely post the list.

[@j-rodjarredvenema9513]

How about cards like winding way, satyr wayfinder, grisly salvage that self mill and let you grab a land from graveyard. That's basically card draw and mana fixing ? (In the right deck)

[@letsongakemi]

Who is watching this episode in 2019, after the 300th Episode?

[@txag007]

This guy!

[@markc6571]

Over here lol

[@lupojw6566]

Me

[@Zac_Craig-Claveau]

Me.

[@700NitroXpress]

Don't think you guys have covered Mana Doubling yet as an essential part of EDH decks. There's a big difference in what how much you can effect the board when you're the one that has lands that tap for 3+ mana a pop. Especially when the deck you have balances all that mana with either tutor or draw to make use of all of it.

[@Juliett-A]

Almost nothing feels better than cloning and bouncing Avacyn.

[@michaelislost7164]

My Savra EDH deck is full of Edicts, Which is some incredibly card advantage. Often you loose 1 creature in exchange for 3 per player. This is NOT card draw thou- as i find i often find myself mana flooded. Card draw helps power through draws you don't want to get the ones you NEED.

[@residentzombie]

Umm guys Acidic Slime is a 2/2 DEATHTOUCH. If played correctly this card destroys artifact/enchant/land AND a larger creature.

[@Sin_6R]

Portal of sanctuary with acidic slime would be awesome

[@Astronomater]

another great episode folks. I build decks that are too fair and lose more than my share of games. can you choose a topic that will help me build better combos or get nastier?

[@Kestral287]

What are you losing to and what are you running? I actually primarily run a very "fair" deck in most senses-- there's no combos, there's no lockdown, it's just a ton of removal and ways to play Magic forever. If you're losing to combo-- which seems to be what you're implying-- increasing your control element can definitely solve that without just changing what you want to play entirely

[@andrewwinston1291]

Seconded, Would love an episode based around building mean commander decks.

[@MrDononino]

BuddyJesusSmokes make sure you have removal to protect your own stuff. And maybe change your mindset from 'how do I win?' to 'how do I become the last man/woman standing? '. that's how i started winning :)

[@haydenjohnw]

Agreed! I would love to hear an episode on "nasty"combos. I'm ready to embrace the unfairness

[@TheRaon75]

BuddyJesusSmokes I hardly ever put infinite combos or instawin combos in my deck, because I generally find it uninteresting. My lifegain deck (that runs leyline of anticipation and vedalken orrery) would be better if I included a felidar sovereign or test of endurance, but that's not a satisfying way to win in my opinion. If you want to win more, either make your combos more consistent, or improve the controlling element of your deck (more counterspells and wraths) and put in extra big cards that can win you the game (craterhoof behemoth, insurrection).

[@zenbrown7144]

A friend of mine thinks the only real way to win is to draw every single card. He runs Laboratory Maniac, but even if it's destroyed he'll still mil himself for kicks.

[@Arakasi0]

Not all card draw is card advantage, some are card selection. Faithless Looting for example, or a tutor.

[@grantbowersox1875]

"Use all your mana every turn" Mono red player holding mana geyser and some copy spells, "Yes please."

[@TSC.CHAZZZZ]

i have " crimson acolyte" and " shadow slice" in a zombie deck

[@Wisdomseyes1]

Mulldrifter didnt come up and elvish visionary did. Odd

[@thisislesbomaya]

just play necropotence and you win

[@ultraviolentkingofthedeath4817]

Zach Chaffee best card draw spell in edh by far and my fave card lol

[@erubin100]

I feel like it's only good in a mono-black deck or dual-colored deck that runs cabal coffers. And even then, the deck needs a shit ton of lifegain!

[@DerDarkfire1]

erubin100 Edgar Markov. Mardu. Army of Lifegain Bloodsuckers.

[@itzpharaoh2325]

Hey guys great vid, made the matter more clear as many people probably came in not thinking of the full picture. I do have one question though, I remember Josh counting graveyard so does that mean by milling someone they are in card advantage?

[@jays2376]

Would you consider a card like Torpor Orb to be card advantage? If you have a deck that has 0 ETB effects, and opponents have a lot of of them, it doesn't take away the cards they play entirely (they still have a creature out of it,) but they lose a major part of the cards.

[@Duranous1]

I would classify torpor orb a time-walk effect. Timewalk effects are a bit fussy to point out but their name sake comes from the card timewalk: take an extra turn. Timewalk effects don't actually have to give you a turn but rather "put you ahead by a turn." In one on one magic many cards that stop your opponent from their draw or bounce their creatures are considered timewalk effects because they virtually put you ahead of your opponent by a turn or put your opponent back a turn. Torpor orb skips your opponents turns if they aren't willing to play out their ETB cards effectively as they are not developing their board state.

[@galacticscalepenguins6092]

Definitely depends on the deck you are running (I run Kozilek, Butcher of Truth stax and it is always amazing to see and prevents 90% of the things I hate to see while playing that deck and completely negates a lot of infinite combos.) I also only have 3 ETB abilities in the deck, all of the rest are cast triggers. I would consider it to be similar to a Time Walk ability as previously mentioned due to it either demanding an answer (which wastes their turn) or significantly decreasing the effectiveness of most creatures (which might as well waste their turn and might result in them just not playing the creatures).

[@joshleekwai8895]

I'm not sure I would call it card advantage exactly. It's definitely a very powerful effect though it won't do anything against some decks. It's probably in whatever category cards like insurrection are. Not card advantage per se but still super powerful and can win you games.

[@jordan8119]

Torpor Orb is great especially when you also have humility out and counterspells in your hand. Makes you opponents creature decks with multiple etb effects suck. If you have night of Souls' Betrayal out also, it kills all creatures your opponents put into play.

[@austinchuilli3652]

The way I see tutors is if its repeatable on its own count it as card draw if not dont

[@SuperDomi94]

Guys, can I send you the list of my Gonti deck? I built it with card that I had at home (plus 4-5 additions) and I would love to have your feedback, although I don't want to bother you if you're too busy.

[@djskype020202]

are you guys on Snapchat? Sharing your games as you play them

[@davidcurtindale2291]

Lol. Jimmy messed up talking about Minds Eye. His brain was still on Rhystic Study apparently

[@Kay_Drechsler]

Brilliant like always

[@tmcdon]

You guys inspired me to build my decks without tutors, (it really forces me to be way more thoughtful about card selection), so it always makes me sad when you talk about using tutors. :(

[@littlecloud3330]

what would you count cascade abilities as. especially throwing things like glimmer of genius and contingency plan in a maelstrom wanderer deck.

[@joshleekwai8895]

Hmmm...this is interesting I hadn't thought about adding that to the discussion. Cascade (if repeatable) is probably pretty close to card draw.

[@ianwalling]

What category would you guys include Dig Through Time in?

[@Kestral287]

Dig is strictly card draw. Just like Divination, you start with X cards and end with X+1. It's definitely better card draw then Divination, but that's what it is.

[@ianwalling]

Kestral287 I understand that but can I still consider it card selection as well in a way?

[@Kestral287]

Sure, it's also selection. It's worse than the best of those in that regard in that you don't keep the remainder on top (meaning that you lose out on that game information and stacking ability; I can't Dig cards to the top for Narset like Brainstorm can or float a Terminus with a Top). The only reason* that one deliberately goes out of their way for selection is to make use of some ability like those, and since Dig doesn't do that it's not great for selection in the usual context. Seeing seven cards is, of course, inherently powerful, but mostly just to 'draw' the best two of them. *Putting aside "I'm in green but not blue so Sylvan Library is one of my best actual card draw spells"

[@joshleekwai8895]

It's both card draw and card selection. But it's mainly selection since you are really only up one card.

[@ultraviolentkingofthedeath4817]

Ian Walling card selection

[@twinstarMD]

Would it be correct to consider tutors as cantrips? Sorry for the necro :P

[@jacobyspurnger8488]

hey guys check out tomorrow, azmi's familiar. gives you card selection on every card drawn.

[@epee11c]

Except for the graveyard shenanigans I would call looting and rummaging card selection, not card draw.

[@Senshi-un2bu]

So are cards like Dig Through Time, Fact or Fiction, Impulse, Epiphany at the Drownyard, Preordain all card selection?

[@wandererofwastes4221]

Senshi Kori Not quite, all the cards you mentioned are card draw apart from preordain and impulse because they can get you any card and will get you more than "card parody" which as they said in the episode means that you end up with more cards in your hand than you started with. The reason that preordain and impulse are card selection but not card advantage is because they let you look at multiple cards but you can only pick one meaning after you cast them you end up with the same number of cards in hand and not more. I hope this was helpful and cleared up the issue for you.

[@joshleekwai8895]

Well said!

[@wandererofwastes4221]

Josh Lee Kwai Thank you

[@cieramanning923]

I never hear y’all talk about soothsaying it’s one blue pay x look at top x cards of your library put them back in any order pay 3 and 3 blue shuffle your library

[@jhoku1]

Is it Jester's Cap card Advantage? I have it in my Intet deck because certain combo decks and important pieces whit make decks working fast and winning. Yesterday i exile Omniscience. Cyclonic Rift and something i dont remember. It's so good cards especially when if one guy play whit Selvala infinite combo deck i just can exile umbral mantle + new selvala and some other untapper and that deck don't do much anymore. :D

[@Bucket_Boy101]

Brb gotta go listen to Rawhide now.

[@Lucarioguild7]

Now I'm wondering how commanders that draw cards fit into this, like if I'm playing kozilek and I can reasonably and consistently play him early is it ok if I only have like 3 or 4 card draw. Azami another example where every creature is draw on a stick once a turn

[@joshleekwai8895]

Really good point. We probably should have covered this. If your Commander draws you cards (and doesn't cost a million mana) then I could definitely see running maybe 5-7 draw spells depending.

[@jbrake09]

mindswipe is the card you were making up

[@kennethacuna9996]

Hi! Great episode as always! I made my deck when partial mulligan was available. We still did partial mull till about a month ago. Now my deck seems inconsistent with the opening hands. Anyways, I did a sample hand of my EDH deck 50 times and here are the results. 60% Definitely Keep 14% Meh, but still keep 26% Definitely Mull I didn't check what are the % on the hand of the after the 1st mull since in our play group we have 1 free mull where we get 7 cards again. I would like to have your advice or idea on what is the acceptable percent of opening hands that should be mulled.

[@joshleekwai8895]

Hmmm...interesting question. I have no real data to go on but I want to be keeping like 80% of the time or more I think.

[@abhorhybrid]

Yo Josh, where do I get one of those hats?

[@strider2175]

I would offer a sort of rebuttal to the idea that tutors aren't card draw, because those cards thin out your library, which makes your future draws more consistent.

[@julien4414]

What about this: my commander of choice is omnath, locus of MANA.how are the proportions?

[@Kestral287]

I'd maintain 10ish ramp spells but go up in card draw. Especially in green, because your card draw does other things as well in most cases (Regal Force, Soul of the Harvest). Omnath himself is ramp in some ways in that he ensures optimal mana efficiency and that can jump you on the curve, but you still want ramp in order to keep him functioning ideally. You want extra card draw to ensure that you have things to do with that mana. If you're trying more of a voltron strategy with him you might adjust those ratios though. How do you normally try to win? Combo, creature aggro, or specifically just bashing in with Omnath?

[@700NitroXpress]

The new Selvala is all the mana you'll ever need, just protect her. Then use Elemental Bond and Zendikar Resurgent for card draw, Panharmonicon doubles the effect, so does Alhammarret's Archive, having some landfall creatures would help. Momentous Fall and Soul's Majesty are insane if you use them on Omnath, you could deck yourself if you're not careful. Then add some devotion like Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Karametra's Acolyte, for a ton of mana ramp. An often overlooked card is Patron of the Orochi, card is busted.

[@Kestral287]

Panharmonicon does not work with Zendikar Resurgent. Resurgent triggers on cast. It does work with Soul of the Harvest though! Archive is going way deeper than you need to in green card draw. Soul's Majesty is great, though Shamanic Revelation is a slightly-improved reprint (but really, just run both). If you need more than that, See the Unwritten is Super Green Dig Through Time for a creature-heavy deck. And for creatures, Duskwatch Recruiter, Tireless Tracker, and Nissa Vastwood Seer are great in more formats than just standard; they're all cheap creatures that get you more cards in hand. Oracle of Mul Daya doesn't technically draw cards, but letting you play lands off the top means that sometimes the top of your library is an extra card in hand and she always improves your card draw. For heavier creatures, on top of Soul of the Harvest and Regal Force we can use Sandstone Oracle and even the original Kozilek (new Kozilek is also technically an option if you want to build your mana base that way but... I would not). For noncreatures, we have Greater Good's insanity and Sylvan Library. Especially Greater Good: say you have nine mana floating with Omnath and it hasn't died yet. Sac Omnath, draw ten discard three, spend five of that to recast Omnath. Nine's a pretty small amount of mana for Omnath most of the time but you just got to completely reload your hand. Green planeswalkers also draw cards pretty often. The five and six mana Garruks can both get you a pretty silly number of cards. Agreed on Patron though. Card is insane. It suffers from being in the same color/CMC as Vorinclex, but really, you can run both.

[@700NitroXpress]

Right, Panharmonicon doesn't work with Zendikar Resurgent, but it works with Elemental Bond. It gets hard to keep track of triggers sometimes when things get crazy. You can draw on cast, then draw 2 on ETB. Cast a creature and draw 3 cards is really good. Patron of the Orochi untaps Selvala and Karametra's Acolyte, so that can generate insane amounts of mana, then just Genesis Wave for 50+, Craterhoof comes down, GG. I'll usually use a Natural Order to get Patron or Selvala, if it's late game, it gets Craterhoof. I found that when you play Vorinclex you better win that turn or everyone at the table will try to kill you. So Patron doesn't get that kind of hate because it can untap other people's stuff as well. If you go overboard with card draw, Myojin of Life's Web can help empty your hand into play, then you can discard all your lands and play Splendid Reclamation. If you want to screw with someone, add in Life Force, it could very well shut down a Meren deck, Leovold, mono black stuff. It's really under played, once your Omnath is storing tons of mana, no one can cast another black spell for the rest of the game. Ground Seal can also shut down graveyard decks if you play against a lot of those.

[@iSupportDaThing]

don't mess with big mamma

[@djethanol256]

can someone plz tell me how to email command zone

[@oscarw1579]

In the "section below" it says their email.

[@justchillin5031]

Land tax :)

[@d00dxKVLT]

Necropotence.

[@Karnigel]

@The Command Zone I think there is somethink wrong or at least not clearyl true. Even if you are the first person who draw a card from holing mine you have no advantage. Becouse you hae to play the card an so one behind it is then more replacement and advantage for the others.

[@MrBuns-yi2hk]

Teddy? Is that you? T_T

[@MrBuns-yi2hk]

Why did they rename it? Just keep it fatpack.

[@TheBlackdragon936]

Calling it a fat pack is fat hate and shaming so they had to call it a bundle. And who says social justice and feminism doesn't change things for the better lol.

[@niallreid7664]

If true, that bothers me more than it should.

[@bucketspree4952]

it bothers you enough they called it a 'fat pack' bc it was full of value they weren't calling it an 'unhealthy pack'

[@dielabtec7882]

Punish ignorance counters and drain. I thought that Josh was refering to this card when he said counter something damage you.