Carnivore vs. Plant-Based: What Science Says About Fat, Fiber, and Heart Health | The Proof EP

[@Fanatikxs]

After an hour of this I am struggling to listen to Dr. Kilitz - the amount of gaslighting, folklore talk, story improvisation, avoidance of science, rampant ignorance of anthropology, lack of evidence-based approach, etc etc. I appreciate your approach Simon - what are the outcomes, what does the data show, what does science prove - save the stories - tell me the facts about what produces optimal health.

[@Thegrumpycarpenter]

For a carnivore this man sure loves him a word salad.

[@AstrologywithMelody]

crazymaking!

[@kentaxell]

Under rated comment

[@kristinachojnowski8712]

OMG I was thinking the same thing!😂

[@kentaxell]

One of these guys talks like a scientist, one talks like a preacher.

[@agray-4rodents]

a preacher and a slick salesperson

[@HeibesHealth]

I’m really, really trying but struggling to listen to this guy. Simon asks him to substantiate his claims, and he pivots to why a plant-based diet is supposedly bad without ever substantiating his viewpoint. I commend you for your very thorough discussion about plant-based diets, Simon!

[@markbobich6335]

Simon presents science and evidence to make his conclusions and Dr. Klitz presents stories and anecdotes to make his. I think I’ll stick with Camp Critical Thinking. Thanks Simon.

[@amyglynn9273]

“I think there are bad apples in every industry.” OBBBBBVIOUSLY, Simin. Apples are goitrogenic! They say an apple a day keeps the doctor away but if you really, really look at the STORY of william tell, that guy was messing with arrows in a way that, as a scientist, i can tell you was quite likely to end with someone’s heart stopping because an arrow was shot into it. Still think apples are safe to eat? What happened to newton? Clocked on the noggin by a damn apple!! You know what else is full of compelling stories? The Old Testament. You wanna read the book of Genesis and tell me apples arent poison?! if Eve had simply eaten from the tree of meat, she and adam would have been a-ok! But goitrogens and lectins and amygdalin cyanide, bro! You must feel well and truly chastened.

[@RibeyeRob]

What you don't understand, and neither does Simon is there is ZERO science when if it comes to what human beings eat and any hard health outcomes from that. What you and Simon are referring to is the many thousands of epidemiological studies of which none qualify as "science". Science involves doing experiments and there has never been, and never will be any experiments done on human beings. Therefore there is no scientific evidence with regards to food and human health outcomes. You can delude yourself for as long as you want but nothing is going to change that fact.

[@Sp1n3c]

All science aside.. Where are the carnivore centenarians doing it for 40+ years? It's the proper human diet, right ? If you cant sustain if for 40+, it's not a diet that promotes longevity. I have a massive lists of PHDs in their 90 and 100 on plant based.. None of the carnivore proponents has a degree in nutrition, or has reached this advanced age, disease free. Those are red flags ! Simon, you have a great approach to this debate !

[@Rickalicious]

It's all a loose weave of a theory, massive claims with little to no long term substansiating evidence. Or as the late Carl Sagan put it, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”

[@wfpbwfpb]

Yep. Plants are awesome. The dissonance of carnies is sad and idiotic.

[@Sp1n3c]

@@wfpbwfpb Nothing new under the sun. They just don't study enough. Their problem is in their microbiome, not knowing how to prep food, and there is a very small group of people with auto-immune diseases and allergies, who can't be accounted as advice for most human beings. With enough fasting, even this might be healed. We are Great Apes- Hominid /Herbivores with an omnivorous adaptation. We are not carnivores. And yes, the "Tribal ancestor Theory" and the isotopes do show that at some point we ate meat. This doesn't mean we lived long lives... Exactly the opposite

[@zentzu4003]

there are some societies that are carnivore like the inuit, from what I heard as soon as they had the opportunity to change their diet they did lol

[@chipsmith7459]

It depends on the user's goals and situation... If somebody is trying to fix their endothelium (75-100 year olds), then whole food based plant diet is the way to go. If somebodies metabolism is messed up, then carnivore or keto diet is an EASIER tool until the problem is managed (fasting also good for obese).

[@TheBookfather]

„Enlighten me“ - I feel you, mate. My respect for you multiplied in that scene, I don’t know how you could keep your calm.

[@ExploretheMallee]

100% agree! Some of it was so infuriating, but again highlighted to me what a chat operator Simon is, and also what a top notch communicator he is.

[@reason3581]

Long term carnivore is gambling with your life and long term health with extremely bad odds. Even Sean Baker admits there’s no long term data.

[@Amanda_downunder]

true. carnivore is not wise, and we are NOT lions or tigers ! lol

[@taylorhewett]

Simon you are a class act. You speak with insight and wisdom.

[@RibeyeRob]

What is wrong with you?

[@SkyRiver1]

That was a most shameless display of sophistry, deflection, and diversion.

[@lophiz1945]

I'm agnostic on food. However, this doctor kept talking about 'science' and claims to be a 'scientist', but could not point to any study to support his "story in life". I think he is just telling people good news about their bad habits. People, even MDs, can get caught up in their personal epiphany and sound deranged.

[@tigergurl33]

Ugh. This is tough to listen to. I appreciate science and facts. Not pivoting to other topics in response to direct questions. I’m sticking with for Simon!

[@bethgonzales1274]

Simon, thank you for having this conversation. You handled it masterfully. You provided sound scientific evidence over and over again and he could only give anecdotes. He is practicing quackery in the name of "stories and freedom". I feel sorry for his patients. Thank you for doing the hard work of calling out this misinformation. Bravo!

[@bluesouth9090]

Robert Kiltz is so non-science based. Painful to watch and a waste of time.

[@George2647g]

He he even explicity denounces the scientific method.. The debate camera work looked beautiful and simon did well not to lose his cool, but a better proponent of carnivore diets might be better next time yeah.

[@mobydog99]

Right, he kept answering questions about the research by denigrating scientific reporting entirely.

[@agray-4rodents]

I couldn't get thru it, it was clear this guy was thrilled with his "stories" as if that was all you needed. That and the belief that the plant growers are controlling the meat industry and trying to destroy it, something he believes but "hasn't figured out" yet 🤣🤣🤣

[@IAmZanderStewart]

@@George2647gwait, no, he claims he’s a scientist first, then he denounces all of science, thus denouncing himself by his own words 😳💀

[@greghill3611]

Exactly he is a “scientist “ and a DR! Wtf!

[@fratusd]

I love how he doesn't even answer the question He skirts around it and tells you what he wants to tell you

[@jacquelinemarek6132]

I’m so glad this guy is not my doctor, but I feel sorry for the patients he gives advice to. He is opinionated with no regard for the research. Thank you, Simon, for bringing the science to those of us who want knowledge.

[@BendeMark]

The number one reason why medical doctors must take a course or training in nutrition, at an advanced level, is this debate. I’m truly gobsmacked at level of ‘scientific’ argumentation from Dr Kiltz. It’s frightening 😨

[@theflyingdutchman787]

Kudos, Simon, for staying calm and collected in the proximity of this charlatan.

[@IAmZanderStewart]

35:35 how are you so patient with this guy, incredible stuff Simon, hats off to you!!

[@travistial]

Dr kiltz mostly talking in circles and not answering questions.

[@mobydog99]

After all "[he] could be completely wrong" LOLOL GTFO dude

[@jonmoore4588]

42:37 "I want to know the science. I'm a scientist" A few minutes earlier argued all science is full of biases and his idea of top level hierarchical evidence was personal anecdotes. Lord above, I don't know how you kept your cool. Such utterly contradictory points in the space of a few minutes. So much meandering, supposition and conjecture without tangible evidence. What a charlatan.

[@wendywitchner7401]

No meat since 1976.Vegan ( organic WFPB) 14 yrs. According to this guys failed logic I should be long gone. I’m a 67 yr old female senior with bigger biceps than him😳

[@demonfedor3748]

This guy loves his stories. Every time Simon wants to go to the science he just deflects with another story. Or digs down to mechanism and more stories. Is he allergic to quality outcome data or something? Everyone around us tells us stories our whole life ,but how do we figure out if they are worth listening to, especially if our health is on the line? Stories are mostly bias,we need to remove it so our story is as close to the truth as possible. We use science for that purpose. We remove our emotions and expectations and do the science to hopefully have a better idea where the truth lies as the result or where it doesn't. One hour in and I barely have enough patience to continue. No idea why I am watching it, I have heard all the carnivore arguments before both from inside the community and outside of it. Your guest collected a lot of biases fallacies and mental gymnastics. Scientists might be dogmatic,the system might be corrupt, people might be biased but we somehow move the science forward. At end of the day the science is here in a practical sense to improve our lives and ignoring it because you saw something which in your opinion contradicts it is very short-sighted.

[@George2647g]

Well he made it pretty clear that he doesn't think science is superior to personal anecdotes in terms of quality of outcome. This is (obviously) very unscientific. At that point I think we could all just turn this debate off yeah.. After saying that he goes back to saying the science is good, but not without undermining it. It's obvious those are his true feelings yeah.

[@aureliaglenn2220]

So many of Dr. Kiltz' followers (and other "carnivores") would be helped by reading, and actimg on, the work of Dr. Will Bulsiewicz. Seriously. The information in the chapter on histamines in his cookbook would help so many people.

[@aaronmyers2382]

Carnivores don't need help. When your body is healthy you don't need supplements or doctors. Have fun with your shrinking brain and no teeth. Lol

[@RibeyeRob]

I am so tired of listening to the nonsense from the pro-plant brigade. Plants and seed oils are the two main causes of all disease in the West.

[@radmehrabdolahi1346]

Simon, I appreciate you siting down and trying to debate/convince/enlighten a carnivore zealot - that's fine, we all like learn and are open new ideas as science enthusiasts, but platforming such people who either don't understand their own ridiculous thinking or are not intellectually honest causes net harm and gives legitimacy to their unfounded arguments. The more a lie or half-truth is repeated, even in front of good information, the more the neutral or skeptic person would doubt your position as they think there "must be some truth" in the carnivore arguments and hence why there is this psedudebate on the topic. The truth is highly likely that a long-term carnivore diet is unequivocally not conducive to health - at least that's based on the totality of evidence and converging data that you wonderfully pointed to. Best!

[@agray-4rodents]

that was kind of my worry too, legitimizing him....

[@leow9124]

"All plants are sugar and some are poison", (12:10) was so ridiculous! All of what he says based on anecdotes, mechanisms, evolution stories, and selected observational studies (which are only useful when paired with other **types** of studies!) At 23:20, finally he gets to the evidence question: "My grandmother" 😂

[@agray-4rodents]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@moiradrosdovech]

that caught me off guard too! Had to rewind and listen again!

[@joshuamarks1129]

45:36 “I’m just sharing a story in life. I could be completely wrong.” 😂Way to bury the lead 45 minutes in, dude!

[@agray-4rodents]

🤣🤣🤣thanks for the spoiler, I couldn't make it thru that far, it was so painful to watch.

[@IAmZanderStewart]

33:33 He completely avoided, derailed and didn’t answer that question… At all, he speaks and argues like a politician

[@happyvegancouple]

Simon, you deserve an emmy or some award for your ability to maintain calmness and integrity while conversing with someone who eschews science. What an unscientific perspective Dr. Kiltz presents. I would add he thinks he has clear cognition; I'd say his thinking is quite muddled.

[@BradStelmach]

Great Job Simon. Thank you for your knowledge, passion, patience, and articulation. Keep up the great work, informing us, educating us, reveling the truth, and keeping us healthy and alive. Blessings,& Love from all of us who love your pod casts. :)

[@kristinachojnowski8712]

Dr. Kiltz killed me. I was laughing out loud at some of the things he was saying. I understand his motivation which is noble but wow, what a character.

[@DobrinWorld]

Thank you Simon, it’s very difficult to talk with so big liars! Even It's imposible, but you did great!

[@gales3899]

Well….Simon making it to the end of this is amazing. Giving him a platform is controversial in itself. I’m not surprised he was told to stop at his place of employment.

[@elkepopp8001]

Mic drop! I have such respect for your patience with this guy. I found him quite creepy, similiar to an evangelical pastor spraking with phoney passion in an attempt to have listeners believe the nonsense that they speak.

[@moiradrosdovech]

condescending somewhat too!

[@Joseph1NJ]

I can't be the only who feels like this guy speaks in circles. I'm trying to listen, but he can't seem to stay on point. I find him selfishly indulgent, as in he very much enjoys hearing himself speak, with a propensity to digress without focus.

[@dbmittens]

I listened to this whole episode to the end. I learned nothing. But Dr. Kiltz's slippery relationship with science and factual data had me jumping up and hollering like I was at a poorly officiated football game with one side fouling on every play.

[@carnismiscancer2108]

Thousands of people are quitting the carnivore diet every year

[@aaronmyers2382]

It's the opposite. But you do you. Your brain will shrink and your teeth will fall out. Lol

[@Insight-music]

@@aaronmyers2382 lol keep drinking that blood Kool aid

[@RibeyeRob]

On the basis of what and according to whom? What we do know is there are thousands of former vegans who have turned to carnivore to heal from the damage that ridiculous diet did to them. To my knowledge I don't know of any former carnivores who decided to become vegan.

[@dorothyhibbs4702]

@@aaronmyers2382 70 year old vegan here have all my own teeth clear skin people tell me I don’t look 50 very active recently had my all my bloods done my GP told me whatever you are doing keep on doing it …BTW how old are you if younger then me come back and compare when you are 70 it’s ok I’ll still be here and so will my teeth

[@TheBookfather]

@@RibeyeRob And you know that from…? Facebook? TikTok? Show us the evidence.

[@mr0glass]

This guy says so much yet so little...all over the place, can't stay on the topic or provide any substance. I don't pretend to be an expert on nutrition but people like Dr. Kiltz turn me off of their way of thinking about nutrition. To be fair, there are a lot of vegan doctors who make a lot of grand claims too. Reasonable, balanced Simon without his clickbait nor any combative attitude makes me think his way of eating has the most rationale behind it.

[@AstrologywithMelody]

Well, I certainly didn't have to worry about this (carnivore) guy convincing me I should change my thinking on plant based eating. Painful to listen to but not a waste of time. A glimpse into the thinking of someone who thinks humans are carnivores. I cannot relate to the complete relativistic viewpoint he has and also his paranoia of being controlled.

[@howiejcee]

Anytime Kiltz is asked about the scientific method, data, analysis, logic, nuance, etc. his reply is basically "I'm here to tell stories". wtf?

[@greghill3611]

If I were a woman I wouldn’t go within 100 yds of his facility!

[@StephenPaice]

I'm only 20mins in the primary argument seems to be around anecdotal evidence which is about as far from scientific as it gets. I'm also confused by what is meant by "more people are allergic to plants than animals" after which he talks about cancer. Does he think cancer is an allergy? I find it concerning that a highly qualified medical professional can be so confused about his own field of expertise, even if you remove the plant based, meat based debate I'm not convinced this gentleman is still aligned with the principles of good medical practise he swore to uphold.

[@SydWalker3k]

Dr Kiltz ends by saying he cares about the health of everyone on the planet. How does he propose that 8 billion people eat like carnivores? If possible at all, it could only be done via vast factory farms. Kiltz's aversion to evidence and infatuation with storytelling is quaint at first, but utterly infuriating after two hours of repetition. How Simon kept his cool is beyond me. What an achievement! 😇

[@ChessMasterNate]

They could eat each other, I suppose. Actually, it could be done, by strategically fertilizing the ocean. But 80% of the "meat" you eat would be fish. It could also be done with tissue culturing. I don't know why I am analyzing this so closely. Clearly, 100% meat would be terrible for human health.

[@tonycollyweston6182]

What do mean by fertilising the ocean?​@@ChessMasterNate

[@ChessMasterNate]

@@tonycollyweston6182 There are large areas in the ocean where there is very little phytoplankton because there is some limiting nutrient that the plants need. This is usually iron. Experiments have been done where they made a fertilizer and released it on a small scale to see if it would work to grow plankton and provide food for the fish, so the fish would multiply. And it worked spectacularly. But they never did it at scale because the US has a treaty with other nations that forbids this except as an experiment. I think we need to press for a modification of that treaty or just withdraw from it. It also has the great effect of removing a lot of CO2 from the atmosphere. There is also the problem of no one owning the ocean, so the Chinese or someone else could take all the fish we grew for themselves.

[@readysteadyslow]

I was really excited to listen to this debate but it was painful. Dr. Kiltz was infuriating to listen to, and completely tone deaf. On one hand, he believes in stories over science, but then proceeds to use proven science to make his points when he can. Anyway, now I’m ranting. Good job as always Simon.

[@elizabethfranklin720]

I’m one hour in and if Kiltz says “stories” one more time I’m going to freak out. I didn’t realize that I was in a literature class. He’s so damn condescending too. Ugh.

[@TheMommydoc]

Totally agree with you all. When challenged on science, he pivots to his being a doctor, a statistician… and then tells personal and patient stories. He sounded like a priest AND a snake oil salesman (by undermining science and public health). Also DONT refer to a study if you havent read it. It’s not only about the pretty pictures (graphs)! Thank you, Simon for your patience. I would have been putting a pencil in my eye about 45 minutes in.

[@TheMommydoc]

PS I am a doctor in his field and I am embarrassed. Like Trump, Kiltz totally ignores science and facts, cherry picks questionable data… wonder if he will work under RFK Jr. Maybe he can sell the unproven-for-weight- loss green coffee supplements with Dr Oz. Ivermectin is looking for an indication other than deworming animals…

[@gales3899]

Not a statistician cause if he was he would understand the evidence pyramid. He literally doesn’t get it which makes me question his understanding. Anectodal being the least valuable.

[@IAmZanderStewart]

13:13 As far as I’m aware there are very good studies showing that we evolved from plants, mainly tubers… Our brain runs with glucose, it makes sense that we’d evolve something with the fuel it runs on

[@aaronmyers2382]

Lol. Lie

[@IAmZanderStewart]

@@aaronmyers2382a lie would be someone stating something they know isn’t true, as if it were true… Like the irony of this comment as you couldn’t possible know, lol!!

[@aaronmyers2382]

@IAmZanderStewart there's so much evidence. You just make it fit your biased narrative. You do you. Lol

[@TheBookfather]

As far as I know, we didn’t evolve from plants, but we have the same ancestors. We do indeed share 55% of the DNA with bananas for example. But I absolutely agree, the doctor doesn’t know what he’s talking about. With his theory there shouldn’t be any plant eaters in the animal world, they must have all gone extinct by now.

[@aaronmyers2382]

@@IAmZanderStewart lol. Go get an education mate.

[@IAmZanderStewart]

19:19 right from the outset he’s trying to undermine and avoid nuanced, data driven, more specific argumentation so he can make generalised, surface level arguments where most basic level educated (in this specific area of nutrition) humans can understand him, not Simon, and win public favour rather than be accurate and correct. Basically like a lawyer, winning the majority over to win rather than to have a dialectic to figure out the truth or optimal as Simon suggested earlier

[@gilbertsaller913]

Good insight.

[@mobydog99]

Just wondering why the carnivore doctor was deemed serious enough to even debate? He does not have expertise in the field, could not substantiate anything he was claiming, could not refute with evidence anything Simjon said. Isn't there a better expert?

[@IAmZanderStewart]

Probably not, he’s the best they have for a reason…

[@IAmZanderStewart]

And that would likely be accepted by him as it’s my only my ambiguous opinion 😝

[@greghill3611]

He didn’t know what a polyunsaturated fat is 😂😂😂😂 this whole debate was very bizarre!

[@k.h.6991]

The dr. doesn't know what saturated fat is?

[@MistyBell13]

Omg Simon, you have the patience of a saint. This guy has a huge ego and is so misguided! I couldn't stomach the entire interview. I actually burst out laughing at some of his ridiculous statements 😂 You did a good job tho 😊

[@TheBookfather]

„I‘m a scientist“ - „I recommend prayer for infertility“ Aaaaahm… okaaaaaaayyyy… makes absolute sense, doctor!

[@TezTezTezTezTez]

I have no iron in either fire but this kiltz guy is completely deluded and talking complete rubbish 🙈

[@cyberfunk3793]

So the carnivore claims to appreciate science and then just denies it like a conspiracy theorist 😂

[@joshuamarks1129]

I bet they both believe that exercise is healthy and important. But Simon reads through mountains of evidence from the scientific community in search of truth. Dr. Kiltz likes to tell stories and to listen to stories. That cross speaks volumes about his philosophical values. He loves powerful stories and doesn’t much care about the actual facts.

[@IAmZanderStewart]

He’s not here for this in good faith, at all 38:38… This is exactly why people are so confused, he wants to tell everyone a story!! He’s not even really talking to you Simon, you’ve been way way too nice to him, get a psychologist to analyse his behaviours and way of speaking.

[@amyglynn9273]

At my house we call what this dude is doing “Narcissplaining.”

[@YASAIMAN9000]

Everything Dr Kiltz said was so abstract/non specific and he constantly dodged questions using "story" as an excuse for everything. It honestly frustrated me listening to this. Good job challenging him Simon.

[@Zombie_Basil]

There’s a difference between an allergy and an intolerance. Also, there are roughly 300k known edible plants and 5 categories of animal products (meat, seafood, eggs, dairy and honey - seafood could be divided between fish and crustaceans). So, of course there are more ppl with food allergies or intolerances to plants… but let’s talk about how roughly 65-68% of the world’s population is dairy intolerant, vs 1-2% that have a peanut allergy, or 0.8% with nightshade allergies, 1% allergy to avocados, 2% have anaphylaxis to shellfish. I’m not saying one is better or worse, but these allergies aren’t making plants inedible on a large scale for ppl. My mom and brother have avocado allergies. I don’t. We all still eat plants. It doesn’t make the rest of them bad… what a ridiculous argument! I feel like a lot of this nonsense is a byproduct of FODMAP eliminations becoming popular. Again, improper messaging.

[@ChessMasterNate]

You forgot mollusks, sea anemones, sea urchins, sea cucumbers, whales, dolphins and porpoises, sea turtles, sea turtle eggs, caviar and more.

[@SantéOriginelle]

I am impressed how many physicians pretend beeing scientific people … and have absolutely no clue about the scientific method ! … this guy doesn’t care about studies and consensus … he is interested in anecdotes and selected stories only … it’s a shame

[@ilonabaier6042]

If what Dr K says were true, I would have been gone with the wind ages ago.

[@S9636-e6l]

Did bro say there's no such thing as a bell curve 57:41

[@DrDaveND]

Yes, I think he did. I was on 2x at that point. But that is what is sounded like.

[@elizabethfranklin720]

I’m definitely not trying to defend him but I think he was saying there’s no such thing as an “average person”

[@JW-jx1se]

Yep, that seems to be his approach to science 🤣

[@TheBookfather]

„The meat producers are just sharing their food and I wish they would tell us more about how good it is for us“- wtf? So, he argues that big meat and big dairy are altruistic organizations that only want people to be healthy, that’s why they torture and kill hundreds of millions of animals each year. And then he knows that big meat and big dairy are not investing in scientific studies to make people eat or drink more of their products (which is absolutely and ridiculously false, just look up the numbers). But surely he’s not getting any money from big meat or big dairy, isn’t he? Speeches, seminars, whatever? No? Ok, if he says so…

[@IAmZanderStewart]

2:27:27 Simon: it’s my duty to serve people the best I can by studying and exploring the science and data as objectively as possible Robert: it’s my passion to tell stories, and tell you that my stories and better than your stories because it’s all just stories in the end but meat rules, plants kill and that’s a fact but not a fact fact, just my story and opinion kinda fact which people who eat animal flesh will love… Manipulation through emotive words, because my passion is more powerful than your duty… you’re doing it because of obligation, I’m doing it because of love… The only lie Simon told is that he would like to hang out with this guy, surely not, be serious, come on!! 😂😂 He might be a lovely guy but so disingenuous, Simon is being way, way too nice here

[@greghill3611]

Simon is a very calm person and that’s a good trait . Not me! I’m type A and wouldn’t have been able to finish the podcast because the guy is a nut!

[@greghill3611]

This was one of the most interesting plants vs animals podcast I have heard….But, the guy is way too far out in left field. I wish there was more pushback by Simon when he talked about how plants cause colon cancer! And he mentioned several times that fiber and complex carbs are bad for people. This was totally insane. I wouldn’t have handled this nearly as good as Simon!

[@nickr31]

Trust the story... sure, no bias at all. Well done for being respectful despite the level of delusion @the proof

[@EnhancedEnergyHealthCoaching]

Well done Simon, you made a great case for the scientific method, very clear cut in my mind. I also was very impressed by your graciousness, but also your ability to bring things back on point. As a nutritionist myself, I really appreciate your scientific, non-dogmatic approach - whilst I class myself more as an 'omnivore' I find your views very interesting and would agree that a mediterranean approach is probably the best for health - although everyone will have their own take when it comes to environmental/ religious/animal welfare principles. That said, it did make me smile at the end when the vegan was defending fermented dairy to the carnivore! But I don't disagree with anything you said in th podcast Simon so props to you!

[@thewayiseeit8766]

Kiltz is a zealot. Dare I say gaslighting narcissist.

[@amiewatson1]

This was such an infuriating listen. Reminiscent of listening to a preacher that has such an inflated sense of self. Comparing science with stories of his grandmother! And with such conviction. I appreciate this was an important debate because there is so much nonsense out there but man it must have been hard. Anecdotes don’t trump science. Pun very much intended.

[@kristafordham6873]

So....evidence is anecdotes?? N of one? Uhhhh...okay. Perhaps Dr. Kiltz should stick to fertility.

[@joshuamarks1129]

I wish that Robert would simply admit that far more people in the USA are eating pizza, hamburgers, hotdogs, donuts, and ice cream on a daily basis than people who are eating Greens, Beans, Onions, Mushrooms, Berries, and Nuts and Seeds. Most of the population has not increased their fruit and vegetable consumption while reducing animal, salt, sugar, and alcohol consumption. The recommended guidelines have simply NOT been followed by the general public.

[@jjjames6894]

Strong gundry vibes, kudos to Simon for not dunking too hard on kiltz. Simon:1+1=2 kiltz:no no, look-it, listen to my story

[@patriziagiammaria3541]

Its funny how he talks about the power the mind when it comes to smoking but not with dairy, he's contradicting himself over and over again... Im not vegan but Kiltz makes me want to become one!🤣

[@HakuCell]

things i didn't know: - mitochondria runs on fat, not carbs. - if we don't eat fiber, our gut flora starts eating the intestinal mucous layer and we get increased intestinal permeability.

[@DrDaveND]

Mitochondria (the electron transport chain) does not run directly on carbs or fat. It uses NADH and FADH2 as it substrates to generate ATP (the main fuel for our cells). Glucose is an excellent source for generating these substances--via glycolysis and the TCA cycle.

[@HakuCell]

@@DrDaveND but then why did both Simon and the carnivore doc agree that the mitochondria runs on fat?

[@skippy6462]

Mitochondria, often referred to as the "powerhouses of the cell," generate energy in the form of adenosine triphosphate (ATP). They can utilize both carbohydrates and fats as energy sources, with the preference depending on the body's needs and activity levels. Key Points About Mitochondrial Energy Sources: 1. Carbohydrates (Glucose): Glucose is broken down into pyruvate through glycolysis. Pyruvate enters the mitochondria and is converted into acetyl-CoA, which fuels the Krebs cycle (citric acid cycle) to produce ATP. Carbohydrates are a quick and efficient energy source, especially during high-intensity or short-term activities. 2. Fats (Fatty Acids): Fatty acids are broken down in a process called beta-oxidation in the mitochondria to produce acetyl-CoA. Fats provide a more sustained energy supply, as they yield more ATP per molecule than carbohydrates. This process is slower and requires oxygen, making fats the primary fuel during rest or prolonged, low-intensity activities. Does Mitochondria Prefer Fats Over Carbs? It depends on the situation: At rest or during low-intensity activity: Mitochondria primarily utilize fats because oxygen availability supports beta-oxidation. During high-intensity activity: Carbohydrates are preferred because they can provide ATP more quickly, even in limited oxygen conditions. Diet and Nutrition for Mitochondrial Health: To support optimal mitochondrial function: 1. Include a balance of macronutrients: Complex carbohydrates (e.g., whole grains, fruits, vegetables) for quick and sustained energy. Healthy fats (e.g., avocados, nuts, seeds) for long-term energy and fat-soluble vitamins. Protein (e.g., legumes, tofu, tempeh) for repair and enzyme function. 2. Micronutrients that Support Mitochondria: B vitamins (B1, B2, B3, B5): Crucial for energy metabolism. Magnesium: A co-factor required for ATP production. Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10): Supports the electron transport chain and ATP synthesis. Antioxidants (e.g., vitamins C and E, selenium): Protect mitochondria from oxidative stress. 3. Lifestyle Factors: Regular physical activity enhances mitochondrial efficiency and density. Adequate sleep and stress management support energy metabolism and reduce oxidative damage. Conclusion: Mitochondria utilize both fats and carbohydrates for energy, with the choice dependent on activity levels and oxygen availability. A balanced diet rich in essential nutrients and a healthy lifestyle help maintain mitochondrial function and overall energy production. Source: ChatGPT

[@kristinf6167]

I’m from Wisconsin. I’ve never seen people eat for processed food in my life. Kwik trip, fast food, bar food, etc. Most don’t work out. Most are at the bar drinking. They go towards a carnivore diet because they love meat, and it ties in with their culture (farming/hunting). They would have the same if not better results if they followed a vegan diet, but it’s highly frowned upon, and you’re constantly ridiculed. Also our ancestors didn’t primarily eat meat. They were alive for millions of years before having access to weapons/tools/fire, and they weren’t out catching wild animals with their bare hands. Go try it. If they wanted meat they had to risk eating an animal that they found dead or that died of disease and compete to get it.

[@peterbedford2610]

All the microbiome researches I've listen to say that fiber is a critical component to microbiome health. Is there fiber in a carnivore diet? I eat very low carb, but not with red meat or very much meat in general. Works for me.

[@Insight-music]

@@peterbedford2610 yeah meat does not digest into a clean stool if your diet lacks sufficient fiber. Case all the carnivores whom experience severe diarrhea. Ontop of aiding digestion of all foods, it’s the fiber in whole carbs and fruit that allows glucose/fructose to be metabolized at the proper rate so it can be utilized as a sustainable energy source. Hence why processed carbs which lack whole fiber, tend to sap energy rather than provide it.

[@ki5ngau]

I can see this guy has serious gout problem.

[@amoeba8888]

this guy's friends, sisters and patients came back to life once they switched to carnivore

[@Psychophski]

This is probably the best episode lately! A very fruitful dialogue. Vegan for the animals, 9 years strong. I won't argue anything but Macrobiotic and Ayurveda which are thousand years old lifestyle traditions are vegetarian/plant based.

[@Sunnysue31]

You are amazing Simon ....

[@chimz1310]

from my POV this is not a dialectic this is logic vs rhetoric and therefore not an actual debate i could not finish this due to the frustration i felt from Dr. Ks arguments

[@joshuamarks1129]

🤔13:33: “I wasn’t there, none of us were there but certainly the scientific review of what we likely ate for many many years was probably raw meat.”

[@joshuamarks1129]

That’s an unbelievably bold claim and I wonder how many scientists would straight up laugh at that sentence.

[@CharlieFader]

And apparently he chooses to make an exception and trust this “scientific finding” because… he knows the scientists? 😅

[@TheBookfather]

If you can choose between some nice fruits or nuts, that you can find everywhere without being in danger or some raw meat that you have to hunt down first… I think we all know that our minds and stomachs are absolutely into raw meat, come on! Don’t start with parasites, etc, that’s just extra protein!

[@yadiachenia]

Im live in the middle east and our diet is mostly bread, beans, rice, cheese and we live in good health. theres no way for any human to eat the same thing over and over again everyday you need to enjoy live and foods is part of the enjoyment. I will share with you some names of the foods that we eat : Ful medames, humuus, Dolma, rice with white beans and we eat raw onions whole.

[@monaantony9096]

This doctor guest needs a huge kale smoothie to look healthy

[@George2647g]

Of course Mr Australian prefers Government intervention and Mr conservative America prefers no government and no regulation. Simon rightly points our that it's not the individuals fault when the guidelines have failed and Big Corporations control folks diets so much. This conversation was doomed from the start based on those deeper philosophical differences but I enjoyed the back and forth and how well Simon handled himself throughout. Well done!

[@braedenreid8803]

The same can be said that people on vegan and vegetarian diet, have a boost in health, mainly due to decrease in calorie intake, and removal of highly processed foods.

[@Insight-music]

This ultimate relativism is total nonsense loopdy loops that gives him an excuse to say anything he wants without criticism

[@johnmarsili4430]

Does the Dr. Look very small with limited muscle or is it just me? With all do respect he doesn’t look healthy.

[@greghill3611]

He is definitely a smaller framed person. He seems to look good on the outside, especially for 70. Also, I believe genes play a big role in people’s longevity..his parents lived to 94 and grandmother 104….so, the guy probably will live quite a lot longer with the carnivorous diet.

[@IAmZanderStewart]

1:48:48 I fell asleep, this guy is very difficult to listen to, he’s a scientist but science is pointless, he’s not a data analyst here’s a list of his data points to back up his argument, we don’t know anything and I won’t claim anything but plants are the cause of all disease and sickness although it’s down to the individual. It’s confusing out there so let simplify things except there’s terms you’ve likely never heard of beginning with G….. Is this guy being serious or what? Fluffing up the conversation to through bones here and there… Your work is good, I love your podcast, average humans are way more intelligent than we believe, very tactical manipulations weaponised to win over the crowd not the argument, he has no intention to win a fair and balanced debate… but ironically most people won’t be intelligent or educated enough on either of these things (including nutrition, debate tactics, manipulation etc to see it because they hear things that suit their lifestyle choices and make it very easy for them to decide how to move forward, especially if they “feel” and “see” externally short term results). That aside, his claim that we’re the most unhealthy we’ve ever been is highly questionable, we’re the largest, longest living population of humans across the globe… while pollution is up, accidents at work more prevalent, cars on the road, etc etc, suicide is up, crime is up, sedentary lifestyle is up, junk food is more available than ever, sitting down at work more common than ever… Genetics passed on more commonly though unhealthy people potentially in to unhealthy lifestyles and environments, and higher stress levels, poorer mental health…. The list of possibilities and considerations is almost endless and yet we’re still living the longest we ever have, exceeding limits and breaking more records than ever. Hence why stats and data matter to break all of that information down, considering all the factors… Which would be more than a lifetimes work and almost impossible to complete due to so many variables

[@DianaBumanglag]

Simon appears it was a one sided debate. Dr Kiltz, in my opinion, was giving a philosophy class vs participating in a debate. I wanted more scientific evidence presented from Dr Kiltz. Thank you for such a great episode.

[@IAmZanderStewart]

1:58:58 I don’t like the word balance but I won’t define natural but use it as an anchor of my argument… natural is such an easily, well defined word 👌🏼

[@Insight-music]

It’s natural for lions to kill cubs, should we mimic that lol

[@KST9182]

Excellent - thank you Ellen, Simon & Robert… it’s appreciated. 👍 I’ve learned to cherry-pick the very best health results ‘as I see it’ from a wide *variety of sources & *tailored to my *athletic & *health goals & *aspirations. It has led to the ‘best health & metrics I could have ever imagined’ would be even possible & for that I’m forever grateful. 👏

[@joshuamarks1129]

25:39 even his framing of the debate is misleading because probably about 90 percent of people are not choosing between vegan or carnivore diets. Has this guy never heard of an OMNIVORE? And that very prominent cross around his neck makes me wonder if he’s truly committed to scientific evidence.

[@LMPM0909]

Right!! His worldview statements and the cross he is wearing do not align in the slightest.

[@taylorm3195]

@@LMPM0909 They align at least insofar as intellectual dishonesty in the form of a profound disregard for good evidence and rational thinking.

[@greghill3611]

In our political climate a LOT of people don’t believe in science. It’s a big problem.

[@RaveyDavey]

Sorry I can't finish this. It's absolute tripe. This Dr is a master of avoiding points, making excuses in lieu of presenting evidence, telling boring stories etc. It's like torture! "What's the best for form of evidence?"...."my grandmother". 🤦‍♂🤦‍♂🤦‍♂

[@meatflake]

Love hearing Simon debate. Would love to see more of these. 👍

[@huntersparmesancheese2769]

“ it runs in the family “ doesn’t mean genetically, but If you are brought up together and live together you most like eat the same “food” that makes you sick!!!

[@fihughes_fitover50]

This guy is actually dangerous!! Kudos to you Simon…I couldn’t deal with anymore of his ‘stories’ 😖

[@PaulLebow]

Attempting a "respectful" conversation normalizes anti-science rhetoric. The exchange was typical where one party is arguing in good faith and the other is just using assertions. Attempting to "convince'" a meat eater makes no sense when they are driven by pleasure. Kiltz was fine with his "story" based upon anecdotes yet had no problem with dismissing Hill's science-based "story". Kiltz choses to define "science" to suit his conclusions.

[@joshuamarks1129]

1:49:42 I believe that us “unique” humans are more similar to one another than we are different. Hence, we all belong to “humanity.” We are very much distinctly different from other mammals like dogs, cats, bears, whales, etc. But we are quite similar to chimps.

[@drcarriesnaychuk]

Interviewer: "What is the heirarchy of evidence you are using?" Dr. Kilitz: "My grandma" and stories. This might work on case by case basis, but it certainly isn't how we progress as a scientific community. The placebo effect is very real - this is why we need repeatable, rigorous blinded, randomized placebo controlled trials. The carnivore diet from an esteemed doctor may very well help some clients. But would it help more than a different diet with the exact some context and delivery? This is what science helps us answer. I would love for Simon to do a solo podcast on his thoughts about this conversation, especially as it relates to goitrogenic foods (which many are healthy cruciferous vegetables etc), fat and the microbiome, and the FEW things that Dr. Kilitz said that I think had some sort of biologic plausibility.

[@constantinaceza5386]

I tried but I couldn’t listen to this one, Simon. I had to stop, it frustrated me to listen to this guy. Hope your blood pressure returned to normal now

[@chipsmith7459]

Thanks Simon for attempting a debate on a very difficult and complex issue. Personally, I think for an overweight person with insulin issues and struggles with cooking, keto & carnivore might be better tools for compliance vs plant whole food diet to get them to an ideal weight. However, I think animal products have too much saturated fat if someone was going to REVERSE their damaged blood vessels/endothelium. So to me, it's individualized medicine specific to the patients needs. Dr. Kiltz is generalizing way too much.