Cartoon Redemption Arcs: The Good, The Bad, And The Catra

[@mr.shreddergaming1940]

What I quite like about Scorpias Redemption is that its completely fueled by her friendship to Entrapda. She didn't join the Heroes because she didn't like the Horde anymore but because she wanted her friend back. And only after joining the other Princesses she found out how Friends should really treat each other. Like she was conditioned to belive that's all there is but once a better way opened up she switched.

[@izthistle6196]

And she also have a really strong moral compass which probably also contributed to that

[@x_void_princess_x]

This is why I ship Perfuma x Scorpia x Adora over Catradora

[@WalterWhite-jz7ct]

there is a Meme that fits Scorpia so perfectly i have to mention it here "I need to start thinking for myself.....unless you guys don't think thats's cool! Then i won't"

[@bananaspice1967]

She's a big oaf and I love her

[@michaelgamel5915]

Agreed I thought scorpias was quite well definitely in my top 5 favorite characters

[@popculturedata]

Hunter's backstory is indeed both horrifying and amazing I'm sure Dana and the team would have gone further if they had more episodes for the Owl House

[@DLxxx]

Yeah, the way they fumbled the delivery of Hunter's backstory is one of my main critiques with the character. His history and life BEYOND his Belos-related trauma is so underexplored and barely fleshed out (always being relegated to throwaway lines). Especially in comparison to characters like Eda. All of Hunter's screentime was dedicated to railroading his redemption arc, and thus focusing on getting him connected with the main cast/setting up his eventual heel-turn. Personally, I would've liked it more if we spent an episode/B plot/flashback exploring his home life and relationships with his coworkers (or heck, just seeing him actually _run_ the Emporer's Coven) rather than SOLELY trying to get him acquainted with everyone in Luz's friend group. I mean, we know absolutely NOTHING of his rivalry with Kikimora, even though they spent so much of her screen time in S2 focusing on it. Actually, we don't even know what Hunter thinks of her as _person,_ let alone a rival, lol. I just find it ironic, because it could've given us insight into the kind of person her was before the main story, and thus made his redemption feel more like.. a redemption (especially since it's heavily implied in the dialogue they did some pretty terrible stuff to each other). Similar situation with Lilith. She was the first person to tell us *anything* about Hunter, yet they're relationship is never acknowledged again outside of that scene in Seperate Tides. Which again, I found ironic, because she was set up to have this major focus in S2, and one way to have Luz organically come around to her more would be for Lilith to give us a flashback of her time in the Emporer's Coven (detailing her own trauma, how the Coven ran, what her relationship with Hunter and Kikimora was like, etc.). But I digress. In the end, Hunter's position as the Golden Guard (the title we're given before we even know his name) and the trials he went through to get that point, feel COMPLETELY disconnected from the rest of his character and his arc. Even though those things would've defined his entire life up until we meet him. Outside of simply being an underling to Belos, if you stripped away that aspect of the character, you really don't lose much of value-- at least not in regards to the arc we ultimately received. Which is genuinely sad for such a conceptually interesting character!

[@skyrimassassin5626]

​@@DLxxxIt's not the writers fault they got cut short it sucked, I wish we got more but not their fault and they did great even then. The series was going to be very different before the cut so we probably would have gotten a ton more than what we did

[@DLxxx]

@@skyrimassassin5626 Of course! It's clear the show underwent a major shift in overall direction after the cuts had to be made. The crew always had my sympathy for that, and the fact that we'll never know how the story would've gone is ultimately Disney's fault. However, at the same time, I do still think the execution could've been better in spite of that. They didn't NEED to push the Day of Unity to the end of S2, for example, but because they did, we ended up getting less time to explore the society that Belos had built, and spent the rest of the show building toward a climax that had significantly less set up. All that screentime spent on building up the Collector, establishing him as a threat, and setting up his redemption, could've been transferred to the established cast (not just Hunter, but also characters like Willow and Gus, for example, could've gotten more time to develop _outside_ of their connection to the Golden Guard).

[@MrWanton16]

@@DLxxx late but TBF he has no relation with his coworkers. That's how Belos kept Hunter in line everyone he works with is an acquaintance at best(Steve) a nuisance at minimum(Lilith,Darius) or despises him(Kiki). If the season had more time we likely would've had time to explore that subsection a tad more but just given how much he's set up to believe Belos' rhetoric as well as start connecting with Luz's friends even prior to the shortage being put in gear during 2B I don't think we were ever gonna get much GG-Hunter/just GG. They unmasked him in like his 2nd appearance

[@DLxxx]

@@MrWanton16 See, I appreciate the defense, but that's just supposition. Nothing in the show tells us that Hunter had no relationship with his coworkers, or that Belos specifically went out of his way to isolate him from the literal people he worked with (in fact, considering he grew up inside the walls of the castle and was raised in the Emporer's Coven, he MUST have plenty of history with his peers). Just cause we don't see them interect, doesn't mean there's nothing there worth exploring, it just means they chose not to use in the end. In hindsight, I feel like choosing to flesh out the relationships between Hunter and the characters he already had potential _years_ of history with (and letting THOSE be used to inform his development), would've felt more organic and less contrived than pairing him with Luz's *best friends* through sheer coincidence.

[@Luminar_Yurei]

As much as I would have loved to see Hunter and the Collector's individual backstories play out in a flashback episode or something, I can't really get mad at TOH for NOT having that, since the series was cut short. I bet those would have been properly shown if it was given a full season 3.

[@namelessechos5380]

Yea, I feel like Hunter's arc also suffered from Disney's wrath.

[@tarniabook3076]

The real villain was Disney.

[@justapersonallity115]

I will never not be bitter about The Owl House getting cut.

[@dumbassgoth]

the collector wasnt even gonna exist im pretty sure!! like that whole entire part of the story was a reaction from the fact that season 3 was cut short like mid production of the second season and they had to resolve everything a lot quicker if season 3 had been made belos was probably gonna stay as the main antagonist for the entire thing and the story would’ve just been a lot more focused on developing that but honestly? i really like the collector and think the entire concept and like the archivists are really interesting and mysterious too so i kinda like that they got to create that lore

[@caramelcandys]

What i imagine his full out redemption arc could play out his him being stuck in the human realm and learning the value in life and lived ones during the potential full season. If dana knew about the cut short season 3 then he could have been introduced about halfway through season 1 to let his redemption arc breath a bit

[@swordsmanthegamernine7973]

Honestly, and obviously this is my opinion, Catra is her own worst enemy. She doesn’t actually revel in anything she’s doing, it’s all, every last bit, an act. She’s acting how she thinks she’s supposed to act, and when that idea gets challenged she gets scared and doubles down on it as hard as she can. This is what makes sense to her and she doesn’t understand why everyone else doesn’t see that. Most of all why Adora, the person she’s known longer than anyone, doesn’t see that. It makes her angry and to cope she refuses all fault and just keeps doubling down. She’ll make things the way that they make sense, she has to. Her worst action has to be, in my opinion, opening the Portal, and it’s at this point she’s her most desperate, most clearly seen when she becomes…I mean I don’t think I can say it any better than ‘Broken’ after the portal opens. And after that, once Horde Prime shows up, her whole facade is already crumbling and is swiftly and utterly shattered by his manipulations. The way things used to make sense for her just don’t anymore. So she gives up, she gives in to the Empathy, and joins Adora’s side

[@cripplingdepression6273]

I totally agree

[@markusbarten455]

The weird thing about Catra is that you can actually understand why she made every bad decision.

[@kittypeanut4102]

Aha, i'm SURE she didn't absolutely love to hit, scratch and torture Adora in every way possible. Sure...

[@huhhuh9598]

@@kittypeanut4102 People act differently in a heat of a moment and what they really actually deeply want. It’s not obvious to most

[@christianlangdon3766]

​@kittypeanut4102 lol in the horde they practiced war against each other. So Catra and her constant inability to take responsibility for her moral actions, even before she was against adora she would cheat and do anything to get the upper hand. No she doesn't even need to pretend to feel about it. The fact she does still in fact feel bad about means she can still be redeemed.

[@fandomonium3789]

She-Ra just has horrible tonal whiplash. Only in She-Ra would you see the heroes throwing a party in the middle of a war zone and then complaining that the war is interrupting their party. And the war itself is so nonchalant at times too. To the point where sometimes it feels more like the war is more of a pillow fight than an actual war. In A:TLA, you FEEL the war. The occupation. The hopelessness. The war has weight and every single character is marked by the war. Meanwhile, in She-Ra, characters seem surprised that a war that's been going on Adora's entire life has managed to reach their doorstep.

[@Z.O.M.G]

Agreed, the fact that one side has like 10 people in total and horde has an army, yet they still manage to lose is even worse in my opinion

[@ghoste3991]

Yeah. The build for the war and the way they don't have an army at bright moon sucks. They did a really good job at character creation but the way they put the story together really sucked. Its a good shoe nonetheless tho

[@Pelusanefasta]

Real

[@Pelusanefasta]

​@@Z.O.M.G #thepoweroffriendship

[@ensetsu]

Agreed

[@CaydeTheSixth]

Chris Mcclean walked so Jack Horner could run

[@LighterFluidDrinker]

I love how this is the first comment i see before the video and it now makes me much more engaged about what im going to see next

[@robxholicfoxyfan8552]

Chris and Jack are both just awful, for sure. I definitely see the resemblance in how little they regard others lives.

[@CaydeTheSixth]

"Oh yeah, Jack Horner, that guy. Man, I taught that amateur everything he knows dude."

[@crowskivonchronos]

You said it friend!

[@avesnspade]

RRAL

[@LostInTimekeeping]

it depends how the redemption arc is for me. in movies. It feel so rushed, but in shows since there’s more time to flush out the characters I feel it’s easier to do. But it really depends on how the writers take hold of it

[@josephcain9445]

I think the biggest issue with Catras arc is Angella. Or rather, the fact that the show needs to pretend she didn’t basically murder her in order to make the romance happen. Some of the writers have said that Angella was meant to return, having been trapped not killed, but this was vetoed for time I’ve heard people say bringing her back negates Glimmers arc, but the thing is, you can’t have both. You can’t have Catra activate the portal and kill Angella and also have her be Adoras girlfriend. If they wanted both Horack should’ve opened it

[@themadmagpie1742]

That's a really good point that I didn't even consider! You're absolutely right, and the thing is- once again, the thing is, I'd trust this show to do this kind of thing really well if they actually committed to it. Like, have a whole little arc dedicated to Catra and Glimmer where she (Catra) has to come to terms with what she's done in the past, and Glimmer has to force herself to work with the person who killed her mother in order to stop the same from happening to all of her friends? Like, that's some amazing storytelling on a platter for you! It's a real shame. Maybe She-Ra needed 6 seasons...

[@josephcain9445]

@@themadmagpie1742 I think Glimmer and Catra already have really good parallel characters. The difference between them is that Glimmer had a loving mother and Catra didn’t If they’d had time a mini arc in the middle of season 5 about rescuing Angella would’ve been a good way to explore that and also start Catra on actively making up for her mistakes

[@StareachValcin]

Even though Catra definitely played a role in Glimmer losing her mother, Angella was trapped, not killed. Plus, it doesn't take away from Catra trying to make right some of her wrongdoings. Redemption arcs don't erase the bad things that were done prior, but those who are on a path of redemption are willing to at least try to be better. Plus, there have been those who have been redeemed for doing far worse than Catra.

[@josephcain9445]

@@StareachValcin except that the show doesn’t make clear that she isn’t dead. On a meta level it’s clear she was meant to return, but because she didn’t, narratively she is functionally dead. There’s no indication she ever gets freed. So the main characters start buddy buddying with the woman who killed their leader and never mention it

[@StareachValcin]

​@@josephcain9445 the series clearly stated that the one who pulled the sword out of the portal would be trapped between the dimensions, so she isn't dead. Plus, the series itself was open ended enough that it may not be the end of Angella. Not to mention that Glimmer herself never forgets her mother, even when she doesn't bring it up. The worst time Glimmer brought up what happened to Angella is when she blamed Adora, and that nearly damaged their friendship, along with the last time Glimmer brought up Angella being when it gave her the strength to overcome her mind controlled father. You also can't forget that while Catra played a role in Glimmer losing her mother, she also helped Glimmer escape from Horde prime without wanting or expecting to be forgiven. It doesn't erase what Catra did, but the good Catra did shouldn't be overlooked either, as well as the heroes willingness to give her a chance, which paid off since Catra helped save the universe.

[@momochan8920]

With Andrias, I feel like they didn’t really redeem him as the characters really didn’t seem to forgive him, but rather just give him reasoning for what he’s doing. Granted, the whiplash is still there. However it’s really not shown how the characters forgive him. Marcy said bye to him, but that’s it. I don’t think they truly forgave and redeemed him. He just made something good of himself during the final battle

[@DLxxx]

I agree! Andrias got CLOSURE in the final episodes. His redemption comes in the epilogue, where it's shown he's going to work to repair Amphibia for the rest of his life.

[@valentinkambushev4968]

Still, he basically got away with a slap on the wrist. For all the stuff he did, rotting in a cell for what little is left of his life is a fitting punishment.

[@jrax1713]

He definitely didn’t get a slap on the wrist. He lost everything he was put in chains for the rest of his days farming, and repairing Amphibia he’s getting his punishment but he’s OK and content with it because he knows he deserves it and is also happy to help fix all the damage he did

[@turtswing]

I don't think Andrias was ever really forgiven of his actions. In the timeskip, we see him in chains, still repairing the land far away from the other characters, and he's slowly growing blind and older, AKA he's lost his immortality. It's his punishment until probably the end of his days. No one has forgiven Andrias, and I think he's ok with that. But what still makes it cathartic is Andrias keeping his friends' items near him: he's got rightfully punished and has lost all of his power, and chances are his days are numbered. But he's finally at peace with himself, and the fact he was able to see the light. No one forgave him (rightfully so), but he has forgiven himself.

[@mohamedlamin2968]

@@valentinkambushev4968 he didn't get away with it, at the end during the credits you can see him as a prisioner condentated to rebuilt all the damage and destruction his family caused with his barehands and all alone. You don't need to kill the main villain to give him a well deserved punishment

[@DaddyDynastic]

You can tell how quickly they had to wrap everything up with season 3 being cut for the owl house and it's a shame because of how interesting Hunter getting to interact with Caleb or the other golden guards would have been

[@pandalousactual]

There's so much cool stuff that we missed out on, it's a real shame

[@Pelusanefasta]

I hate disney

[@elrondxiloscient]

its really such a shame, theres so many lovable and brilliant character designs in toh that its easy to tell how in-depth they could've gone in season three... screw disney, really

[@kiwiparfaits]

before the second episode of season 3 came out and i still had the s2 finale stuck on my mind, i started thinking about what it would be like if hunter had seen the pit of golden guard skeletons. it might be too mature for the show but man it would be really messed up. i ended up writing a mini thing of either a past hunter or our hunter where he found out the truth and while fighting belos, was thrown down into the cliff alive. and the bodies at the bottom softened it enough to where he survived and had to deal with the sight of that. it's like the show set up that scene but we never got too much from it? like king was the only one who got to see that and then it was never talked about... there was so much more space for hunter's character and arc and i loved what we got but I'm very sad about what we could have gotten with more time

[@mafiyuus]

if i had the chance to i would find the people that cancelled owl house and burn everything they love to the ground but unfortunately that is illegal and i dont wanna get arrested or get death penalty

[@philly_sports1558]

If I had a nickel for every time in a cartoon I saw a 16 year old boy who’s going through a redemption arc after realizing his father figure was an abusive and gaslighting person almost have a breakthrough with the 14 year old female love interest of the main character voiced by Mae Whitman who carries a pouch of fighting liquid with her only to end up turning on her due to selfish and short-sighted reasons in an underground area filled with green crystals, I’d have 2 nickels. Which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice.

[@nevamorsmt8287]

How?

[@teacupp01]

⁠@@nevamorsmt8287 the comment is talking about zuko (avatar) and hunter (the owl house)! mae whitman voices aang’s (avatar) love interest katara and luz’s (owl house) love interest amity

[@nevamorsmt8287]

@@teacupp01 wow realy?

[@micromints1735]

Zuko is 17

[@uncroppedsoop]

@@micromints1735 in the show it's outright stated that Zuko's banishment has passed its 3rd anniversary offscreen. it's also said he was banished at 13 years old. Zuko is 16

[@ZoobiethePopplio]

I really like Peridot’s redemption arc. Still the best redemption arc in Steven Universe.

[@VanNessy97]

I also lost it when she called Yellow Diamond a clod

[@tarniabook3076]

@@VanNessy97 Or when she yelled "Remember me?!" and Yellow Diamond was simply like "No" and poofed her, which meant that Peridot talked trash at her boss the moment before getting rid of her uniform.

[@sawk1875]

Agreed. She’s just so fun

[@GaribaldHludwig]

Personally, I think it was an unnecessarily long without nothing major happening until near the end.... just like all SU in general.

[@entrapta.exe_]

Me too. Peridot is the most well-written SU character. Always my favorite.

[@Louisville0321]

I think the worst "redemption" was Hordak's. All the other characters who got redemption at least somewhat acknowledges the harm they caused. Even if it's just a bit. Hordak on the other hand caused so much harm. He started a war, killed how many people,and took the kids of the people he killed and turned them into child soldiers. He never once even said anything about the horrors he committed. He kinda got turned into a "owo soft boy" when he met and I guess fell in love with Entrapta. His "redemption" was not killing Entrapta when he was ordered too. That's literally it. He then gets to live his life with Entrapa.

[@sarafontanini7051]

its PRETTY WEIRD to give the original big bad a whole ass redemption arc and not actually have him actually fight the protagonist. Especially since they played him straight as a villain for so long.

[@floffy2695]

I know, he was played up as the big villain who caused ALL the harm in the series up until the final season and his "redemption" is just in the form of amnesia and a love interest.

[@entrapta.exe_]

But writing a good redemption arc for him would be too much effort! And you know how much the writers of She-Ra hate effort 😭😂

[@gamingcookiereal]

im ngl i havent watched shera since it ended but i completely forgot about his redemption

[@e.corellius4495]

hordak thing was because he didnt actually have anything do do with 99% of that. he spent literally all his time trying to gtfo , and its somewhat clear from season 2 onwards that hordaks commanders the "shadow weavers" that he had over the years were the ones doing all the war crimes. all hordak did was touch down in the land of scorpia's ancestors and tell them, hey i need X things so bring me them and ill give you the tech to do it. it was all for that singular goal to escape a planet he was trapped on, a planet he could not care less about. falling for entrapta made him care about "her" planet by proxy, he actually hasnt really changed at all by the end of the show, his singular goal simply moved to her since he "succeeded" in his original goal. so personally i think it kinda works.

[@aceash459]

One of the more overlooked reasons why Zuko's redemption arc works so well is that one scene where he tries to save General Zhao's life even after the general attempted to murder him. And that was season 1 Zuko mind you. Somebody who can forgive and empathize with their enemies deserves forgiveness

[@tomnorton4277]

Yeah, that's a great scene, not only for Zuko but also for Zhao. His contempt was conveyed without a single word because in his mind, Zuko showing mercy was a sign of weakness. He'd rather die than be helped by an enemy.

[@elae4051]

He also is more or less quick to keep his crew safe even if it means Aang and his group escape for the time being. Like even early on, he’s got some redeeming aspects to him.

[@skyhideaway]

there were so many great moments in ATLA that highlighted why Zuko was deserving of empathy and redemption. the entire reason he was banished was because he was actually a good person who didn't want to sacrifice the lives of innocent people. ATLA did such a good job at creating an actually misunderstood character who has good in him and shows in several times.

[@TherealRNOwwfpooh]

@@skyhideaway Then that's not a redemption. A redemption is when an actual villain turns good & the turn has reasons for it happening, whereas Zuko was always good inside all along but was made bad by the circumstances of his environment & the misplaced need to reclaim a supposedly lost honor (even if he actually had his honor all along, it was his cruel father & deranged sister who had no honor to begin with) more than anything else.

[@skyhideaway]

@@TherealRNOwwfpooh Zuko was still a villain. villains are allowed to be multifaceted rather than pure evil. just because Zuko had good in him doesn't mean everything he did was right. he burned down a village. he tried to get Aang killed. his actions were more impactful than his intentions, and that's why he was a villain. like Sokka said "good inside him isn't enough, why don't you come back when it's outside him too?" there are plenty of villains who have reasonable intentions but still do the wrong thing. what they get are still called redemption arcs.

[@upumpkin]

I wonder if there are any good redeemed villains who don't have a "Even Worse Villain" with power over them (usually a parent or authority figure).

[@realmsthewitch8242]

I'd argue Sasha. I always saw her as more of a threat than Grime and she seemed like the biggest treat before it was revealed what Andreas's true intentions were.

[@DLxxx]

@@realmsthewitch8242 How was she a bigger threat though? After Reunion that poor girl went through the _wringer_ and didn't even interact with the rest of the main cast till the end of S2. She was already undergoing her redemption arc and positive development before she ever took the throne in True Colors, and even then, she wasn't a threat to anyone EXCEPT Andrias (and the Core, though we didn't know about them yet) at that point. That said, I do appreciate how they allowed Sasha's past to inform her actions and flaws without absolving her of responsibility. That's one of my favorite aspects of Amphibia: even characters who have a heart of gold are punished HARD for their mistakes, and are forced to grow as they suffer the consequences. Even Marcy wasn't given a free pass, despite not having as much baggage with her friends as Sasha and Anne did.

[@toadlord8594]

How was she the bigger threat until Andreas though? The girl goes through hell in S2 and it makes it clear she starts doubting her involment in helping the Toad rebellion throughout the season.

[@realmsthewitch8242]

@@toadlord8594 I said before it was revealed that Andreas had more to him than the surface. She was the one in control and bossing around grime

[@lvx_ray]

@@DLxxx ​ ​ Sasha was never under the control of anyone else throughout the series, and up until Andrias was revealed to be a villain, she was the biggest known threat (in terms of villains) to Anne and the Plantars. Unlike characters like Hunter and Zuko, Sasha had almost complete control over her situation. She didn't change because she realized that she was being manipulated - because she wasn't - she changed because she saw how her actions affected those she cared about. So in this case, Sasha is a great example of a character who was redeemed without having an "even worse villain" holding power over them

[@starlightrai]

For the moment when the collector was laughing about the Grimwalkers, he wasn’t aware that they died. Just like how he thought he could fix Luz when she died, he also thought that belos just “broke” them and fixed them. I’d reccomend Yipeesha11’s video, Why shadow collector feels so different from our current collector for their take.

[@DLxxx]

But Belos clearly WASN'T fixing anyone that he broke though. As far as the Collector was aware, those Grimewalkers were dead and _stayed_ dead (hence why he suggested they "make" another Grimwalker, instead of simply fixing an old one). Also, Belos isn't HIM. Sure, the Collector might be able to "fix" someone, but there's no reason for him to think Belos, a mortal, can.

[@starlightrai]

@@DLxxx the collector didn’t know what death was. Maybe what i said was a stretch but to him, the grimwalkers were broken.

[@lunakingsley.7247]

​@@DLxxx two things. One the collector littarly has no idea what death is, death isn't a thing for him at all. He also taught belos his magic so it's very possible he thought he could fix death.

[@DLxxx]

@@lunakingsley.7247 No, you're misinterpreting the dialogue. The Collector knows what "death" is, he just believes he can *fix* it. When Eda says "and everyone nearly died from the draining spell", he doesn't litterally ask her what "dying" is (which you'd expect, considering he's trying to defend his actions and understand why they don't agree with them), he just questions why it should matter to _him._ He also doesn't understand their perspective of death because HE is an immortal who can't die. However, it's also made apparent that he understands mortals AREN'T like him. Hence him viewing them as "toys" in the first place, and asking questions like "What do mortals eat again? Rocks? Fire? Gravity?" By definition, the difference between "mortals" and "immortals" is that one lives forever, and the other doesn't. Even if he doesn't understand the permanence of it, he MUST have known what death is on the basis that mortals eventually _end._ Edit: There's no indication _anywhere_ that the Collector ever taught Philip how to outright reverse death (especially considering the imperfect method he used to preserve his own life). Even if he had, Belos clearly had no intent on using it for anyone else, and the Collector didn't care. To the extent that he literally suggested MAKING a new "player" instead of reviving someone else. That was my whole point.

[@The1andonlysharpshooter]

@@DLxxx One thing I will say is Luz asked him in the last episode if he’s aware what death even is. Of course he would know what the literal definition of death or dying is, what he doesn’t understand is that he doesn’t have the ability to just bring people back, hence not understanding the concept of death. His view of death is skewed.

[@marisolbecerra06]

The fact that Catra joined the good side only a few episodes before the finale is so insane to me. The fact there was so little worry from the group and they so easily forgave her is ridiculous considering the amount of damage she caused them for the last four seasons. Not to mention that she literally almost tore apart space and time and they just glossed over that. Catra needed so much more time to be redeemed and be shown with an actual interest in joining the other side. And there also needed to be way more time with her interacting with the group members and slowly getting their forgiveness (even though I feel that she wasn't really redeemable after all the bs she pulled throughout the entire series)

[@DouglasTheAlien]

Not only that, she’s literally the one who killed glimmer’s mother by opening that portal. Glimmer must know that, but she just forgives her as easily as everyone else? If I was in her position I don’t think I could ever forgive Catra. Especially like, immediately :/ that really really bothered me so much.

[@marisolbecerra06]

@@DouglasTheAlien EXACTLY, it makes no sense that Glimmer forgave her for that so easily, and it shocked me that the others were never aware of that either, you'd think considering how close they were that maybe they wouldn't want the person who killed one of their moms to be cruising around with them as if nothing happened

[@falconeshield]

You guys really love hanging on to the Angella thing to hate on Catra, as if it's not one last mystery keeping the show alive like Zuko's mom for 8 years after TLA officially ended. At least Glimmer regained her dad if unintentionally. It was gonna be addressed in a potential movie. Catra probably would've been banished from setting foot in Salieans alongside Hordak but that one makes sense even with Melog making them invisible if needed. That and Catra is now hydrophobic thanks to Prime. Angella would have been rescued thanks to Entrapta's machinations and the BFS. It's also a perfect tiein to the og Shera movie. Angella was always destined to be trapped in a void and to be rescued by Shera. It's just the circumstances are different. Would be neat if Heman manages to be a part of the rescue like the og VHS movie. I wonder if a Harpa can be included in the rescue somehow.

[@sanctimoniouslocke3941]

@@DouglasTheAlien I feel like there are a couple reasons why Glimmer was able to "forgive" Catra so quickly. For one thing, she and Catra were essentially alone together on Prime's ship, and Glimmer had nobody else to depend on. If she wasn't able to force her way past whatever emnity she felt for Catra, she probably would have died there; bonding with Catra was just survival instinct. Aside from that, she was feeling the weight of a whole lot of guilt over letting Light's Hope manipulate her into activating the Heart. A superweapon that nearly (and at that moment, still might have) destroyed the entire universe. When Catra flipped the switch that nearly tore apart Etheria, the end result was the death of Glimmer's mother. Super bad thing. But then Glimmer went and nearly killed everyone else. It's not directly comparable, given that Catra had fully intended to ruin everyone's day, whereas Glimmer was just intensely misguided. The results are also incomparable though; Catra might have destroyed one world, but Glimmer might have destroyed every world. When she was in that cell, she probably spent a lot of time thinking something along the lines of, "What Catra did is terrible, but I'm not any better." Aside from that, there's just the fact that Glimmer loves Adora, and Adora loves Catra. Glimmer felt like she needed to "earn" her friends' forgiveness and she understood that, going forward, Adora and Catra would be a package deal. None of which is to say that the show couldn't have used an entire extra season to flesh out Catra's redemption arc. Even if I'm right about all that, they could have done a better job of laying it all out for the audience.

[@TherealRNOwwfpooh]

@@DouglasTheAlien Catra didn't know the portal was going to cause reality to get all screwed up & prompt Queen Angella (who herself says, "I'm the Queen who stays behind") to sacrifice her immortal life so Adora as She-Ra wouldn't have to (Remember, if Angella didn't stay in the fractured reality instead of Adora, then Adora would've done so & the show would've ended with the death of the main character AND all of Etheria would be doomed without Catra & Hordak getting their redemption arcs, Shadow Weaver not being able to finally admit to Catra that she's proud of her whilst the dark sorceress willingly sacrificed herself for the greater good, and Catradora's sapphic kiss restoring the universe to its full glory, followed up by the conclusive defeat of Horde Prime after She-Ra purged his evil essence from Hordak's body). Angella stayed in the broken reality of her own volition. Remaining behind in a damaged continuity that was self-imploding was Angella's own decision to make, not Catra's, nor Adora's.

[@IceFireofVoid]

I think a reason Catra is so polarizing is because of how....real she is. In terms of a depiction of a child who has long lasting trauma as a result of chronic child abuse. We like to imagine victims as pure and innocent and abusers as pure evil, but the reality of trauma is that victims often end up adopting toxic behaviors either by copying their abusers or as maladaptive survival mechanisms and in turn becoming abusive themselves. Catra was consistently mistreated and made to feel lesser her whole childhood and as such has been warped to think the only way she can have worth is by proving herself to her abusers. That if she is "good enough", the abuse will stop. It won't. She will never be good enough. They are only using her. Her redemption is a story of healing and breaking free from the cycle of abuse by realizing this. We see her downward spiral as she gets more and more desperate before finally realizing that it was all for nothing and that is when she is finally able to change and move on. If you are a victim of abuse or have trauma, she is going to evoke very strong feelings in you either from reminding you of the ones who harmed you or reminding you of the ugly scars your experience left you with. I think she is an empowering story of healing because, even if she had become cruel and cold in her desperation for validation, she was never deemed beyond healing. A victim of abuse should not be considered beyond healing. The only issue I have with it is the same you had. Th reactions of the other characters. They shouldn't have accepted her so quickly and she shouldn't have had that romance. She is most likely not yet healed enough for that sort of thing. Trauma recovery and unlearning toxic behaviors takes a lot of time and hard work.

[@joshuagonzalez4183]

well at least you’re fair (when compared to the other commenters..,no offense to magpie)

[@Saltedroastedcaramel]

I'm going to have to disagree with her story being empowering given how the show handled her. There's nothing really empowering about healing when you only do it when you're in trouble rather than coming to that conclusion yourself. It's even harder when from the beginning, Catra already knew the horde was evil, and even more so when she managed to defeat her abusers. Even after she "redeemed" herself, she still hasn't changed. The show made Catra a villain for far too long to make anyone with critical thinking skills to see her redeemable and the fact she's based on an emotionally abusive relationship by N.D Stevenson makes it worse. It says something where Hordak and Shadow Weaver (the personification of homophobia) seemed to have a somewhat better "redemption" than Catra.

[@IceFireofVoid]

@Saltedroastedcaramel I'm not sure how Hordark and Shadow Weaver, the tyrants who abused Catra and directly caused everything bad she ever did on the show, have better redemptions than their victim. Shadow Weaver in particular comes off as a manipulative snake all the way through. Catra is more just confused and hurting.

[@Saltedroastedcaramel]

​@@IceFireofVoid Catra took both of them down and she hogged the most of the screen. Shadow Weaver sacrificed herself similar to Angela and Hordak was barely a villain character who had a surprisingly decent relationship with Entrapta compared to most in the show. Also keep in mind the word redemption was in quotes. None of them really redeemed themselves, but Hordak and Shadow Weaver seem to have a better one in comparison to Catra. There's nothing empowering of an abuser being rewarded with her victim just because she was abused herself. She lost her chance after season 3

[@Saltedroastedcaramel]

And another thing about Catra is that she knew the horde was evil, so she's not even sympathetic in that regard. The only thing that made her somewhat sympathetic is Adora, but even then she doesn't care enough about her to have some moral compass. In most shows, especially old ones and if Catra was a boy, her behavior called out as toxic and there would be articles of how the relationship between Catra and Adora is sexist and the case of stockholm syndrome even with Catra being an abuse victim. But because she's a lesbian cat girl, it's okay and you're homophobic for calling it out even if you've experience the same thing until recently.

[@thunderstrike101]

Catra's redemption had a decent beginning and end but no real middle. The buildup to her turnaround was nice, her chemistry with the rest of the good guys worked, but there wasn't a good job of bridging the gap. I'd say between being rescued and having the chip removed to when she says "I'm sorry, I got angry. It's something I'm working on" was the middle and the writers should've done more about it. With Zuko, even after his turnaround, he still had to make up for what he did to the Gaang. While the likes of Sasha Waybright didn't show much of a middle, I liked that we saw the result of how much she tried to do good, like starting and leading the rebellion. Even though she was forgiven fairly quickly, there was still a lot to iron out between her and Anne, like when she was being so desperate to not be in charge for fear of relapsing and Anne subconsciously thinking that Sasha only sees the frogs as simple soldiers and not caring much about them.

[@DLxxx]

What do you mean Sasha didn't have a middle??? Almost all of her screentime in the back half of season 2 was ABOUT her reconnecting with her old friends, seeing how much they've grown (namely that Anne didn't need her as a protector anymore), and coming to terms with and *admitting* to her own toxic behavior. Most of her baggage with Anne was dealt with in episodes like The Third Temple, The Dinner, and Battle of the Bands. Each one had them gaining a better understanding of each other, and had Sasha reflecting more and more on her mistakes. There wasn't much LEFT to tackle after True Colors outside of her taking the throne, which didn't involve any actual harm to Anne, Marcy, or the Plantars. There's also the fact that it was _immediately_ followed by Sasha trying to warn her about Andrias, which was proven right in the end. Anne isn't an idiot, nor was she free of blame for what happened in TC. SHE was the one who shut down diplomacy when Marcy and Sasha wanted to talk things out (something that could've worked, since Sasha herself wasn't sure whether she truly wanted it anymore). SHE was the one who let her personal hang ups with Sasha blind her to Andrias' true intentions (in fact, she explicitly admits in the dialogue). After reflecting on that, and realizing she was wrong to dismiss Sasha's genuine growth as mere manipulation, Anne chooses to free Sasha and trust her again. The moment Anne and Sash are fighting back to back in TC is the moment they FINALLY stopped they're petty squabbles and became true friends. It'd also be _really_ strange for Anne to continue being petty toward Sasha after seeing that she spent who knows how long defending the people of Amphibia in her absence. Not to mention Anne would be ecstatic to see her ALIVE, and not captured or killed by Andrias. And to top it all off, Anne's character development had her mature beyond that by S3b. That's part of why she and Sasha weren't on the same page about Marcy. While Sasha once again threw herself into fighting Andrias in order to avoid dealing with her feelings (just like she had in Toad Catcher), Anne had _plenty_ of experience with forgiveness. Not just because of what happened between her and Hop Pop, but also since already forgiven Marcy and Sasha once before. She knew how to open her heart up again and see when people are sincerely trying their best.

[@thunderstrike101]

@@DLxxx I'm talking about the turnaround from bad/waning to full on 'I'm fully committing to being better '. Like Zuko, her redemption arc was happening throughout the whole show but she didn't fully commit to the side of good until after True Colours or Day of Black Sun. Anne being blinded with rage towards Sasha was a boy who cried wolf situation so I'm not surprised she didn't bother listening to Sasha. As for the forgiveness, I'm not saying Anne wouldn't immediately forgive her or stop caring about her after everything they've all been through, but subconsciously there are still a few unresolved issues here and there that would've come up eventually after finally interacting again for the first time in possible months which as I mentioned, Sasha overcorrecting for her old behaviour or Anne silently underestimating how much she's done to change her ways.

[@nallyrose9048]

I totally agree with you about Catra’s redemption, but i put the blame on the absence of one more season to elaborate

[@delurces.delgado4352]

​@@nallyrose9048 Nah, the content of the show was too dragged out actually. They had 5 seasons, and Avatar was able to make a more compelling redemption Arc in only 3.

[@cartoonking1789]

@@nallyrose9048 they knew how many episodes they would have to tell this story and they wasted it.

[@BluAru]

We really can’t blame Owl House for Hunter’s lack of full arc, we can blame Disney for cutting the show short, but we really can’t blame the show, characters or writers themselves.

[@DLxxx]

See, I don't think the writers are totally absolved of responsibility though. They didn't NEED to rush his arc and get him into the Hexsquad by the end of S2 at all cost. They didn't NEED to build up a second climax with the Collector and push the Day of Unity to the end of S2, when they could've just made the Day of Unity the climax. And so on and so forth. Although yes, Disney is ultimately the one who gave them less time to sort things out, and I'm sure they could've done better.

[@BluAru]

@@DLxxx Okay but the story didn't end with the day of unity, and Hunter being in the Hexsquad by the end of season two was crucial for the plot. They didn't NEED to write the story at all. It could've been completely different. The choices the writers made with the time they were given were important. End of conversation.

[@DLxxx]

@@BluAru OK, Save the dismissive attitude for someone else? Let me be crystal clear so I don't have to repeat myself: _"The story didn't end with the Day of Unity."_ The only thing that followed the Day of Unity was the arc surrounding the Collector. That character didn't HAVE a major role in the story until after the cuts, and the only thing the story was building up to before then was the Day of Unity. How in the world do you come to this conclusion? _"Hunter being in the Hexsquad by the end of S2 was crucial to the plot."_ In what way? His presence in Luz's friend group did nothing to effect the overarching plot of S2b. It was all just self contained character development for his arc (an arc I was suggesting could be rewritten to take more time and explore him in more depth had they simply kept the story focused around the plot they were setting up with Belos and the DoU, as was my whole point). Unless you're referencing Luz disguising herself as him, but getting her to Belos could've easily been facilitated by other means. Case and point: in the early storyboards for the Clouds on the Horizon, Amity had the portal key around her neck. If Hunter wasn't originally going to be targeted by Belos (or he simply wasn't there), Kikimora could've gone after her instead, since we know Belos still wanted the portal key. Luz and Gus could then do a quick switch the same way they did in the final. Hunter was NOT necessary for that scene. _"They didn't NEED to write the story at all. It could've been completely different."_ You're right. They DIDN’T need to write the story the way they did and inject an entire second climax into the plot (which we know they did, since again, the Collector didn't have that role prior to Disney's interference). Yet they made a decision that ate up more of their limited screentime. It's almost like I was suggesting an alternative! 🤔

[@ImYourCherryBomb]

@@DLxxx Yes actually, they absolutely DID need to do all that because the day of unity was never planned to be the climax of the show, there was literally NO OTHER WAY for them to then tell the full story given the major time cut without having to do all that. Like, this is going to come off as rude and I’m sorry but are you purposely being maliciously idiotic just to shit on the show, or is it just that impossible for your brain to comprehend how story structure works and how negatively cutting off a story in the middle can affect it. Honestly you deserve the dismissive attitude from the other person because your comment and attitude towards what happened to the show is in fact THAT idiotic, and an insult to any writer, especially those having to struggle under a company like Disney. You clearly don’t understand how any of this works and your ‘suggestion’ shows it.

[@SirBiscut2470]

​@@DLxxx ok, i know im a year late, but oh well i cant time travel, anyways, i want to (respectfully) make two counterpoints to your statements, feel free to make counterpoints of your own if ya want to :) First off, the way i see it they kinda did need to push the day of unity to the end of season two, because, to my knowledge, the cancelation of the show occurred half way through season two, so if the day of unity were to be the climax, it would feel very rushed bc TOH was cancelled so close to its climax that making something else the climax would feel very contrived, and also the day of unity was being built up to be sometime in the future, not right around the corner, making the day of unity the climax, in my opinion, would have made it feel rushed and go against prior setup. Secondly, hunter did kinda need to be redeemed when he was because if he were redeemed later, he wouldn't really have that good of a dynamic in luz's friend group, we needed to get time with him with everyone else bc if we didnt, in my opinion, it kinda would have felt like the golden guard was just hanging out with them for no good reason, and again, feel rushed, bc if you push his development foreward then you have to then rush his inclusion with luz and everyone else. Im not saying what we got was perfect, but they did their best with what they had, and the decisions they made make sense when looked into. Sorry for being a year late, and this isnt meant to be an argument, just a respectful disagreement, and this is just what i felt i needed to say, we both have opinions and if they differ so be it, ill respect yours and i hope you respect mine, have a nice day :)

[@Veralos]

My main takeaway from this video is that Kipo and The Age of Wonderbeasts continues to be criminally underrated in the cartoon community. It's weird that the Disney trifecta is basically inseparable, yet She-Ra gets far more attention then Kipo despite both being DreamWorks/Netflix shows with many similarities. Anyway, the relevant point is that Kipo features a major redemption arc of similar calibre to Hunter and Sasha, and in general plays a lot into themes of redemption and forgiveness. Also, Kipo's soundtrack is straight fire and the show is worth watching for that alone.

[@lonelylittledot]

So true! I'm lowkey annoyed that Kipo is getting zero recognition while people keep raving about She-Ra.

[@HylianNecessary]

Agreed; KIPO is a fantastic show

[@pikatifc4301]

kipo is so so good but the way NOBODY talks about it almost makes me feel like it was a fever dream, so glad someone's mentioning it and the banger soundtrack too omg

[@marblecore]

YESS I was just going to the comments to see if anyone had mentioned kipo 🛐🛐 loved the way that they handled Hugo's redemption because finalllyyyy a show where everyone doesn't immediately forgive the villain after they switch sides. ALSO THE SOUNDTRACK!!! YOURE SO RIGHT!!!

[@honeymeansmel]

Kipo is one of my favorite shows!! I love the message and I absolutely adore the animation too

[@bobthet-rex2718]

I feel like had Catra not joined the Heros side but had gone more along the lines of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Where everyone is distrustful and tense, but slowly overtime there can be some minor growth where she has an ending similar to Andrias would have worked really well for her character compared to what actually happened.

[@roo1014]

This exactly

[@toadlord8594]

She could have also followed Cassandra’s ending from Tangled the series where she splits off from the protagonist and “find her own destiny”.

[@TherealRNOwwfpooh]

@@toadlord8594 Except this was never going to happen. Catradora being endgame was going to happen & it was planned from day 1 with the first episode of the show.

[@DipperPines1986]

In other words, Catra should do the same as Shadow Weaver in season 3.

[@sharrkan9177]

Honestly, I agreed with your points about Catra a lot. To me, her "redemption" didn't feel like a redemption. She never made up for what she'd done, only ever apologized to singular characters, not entire nations she'd razed, and didn't change because she wanted to be better; she changed because she wanted Adora to like her, and that's just not a genuine enough change for me. She stayed with the Horde until it had nothing left to give her, and only then did she decide to leave. I know she saved Glimmer, but that one good deed doesn't make it feel any more like she learned any lesson except, "This is what I need to do to make people like me.", not "I should avoid hurting people". And here's the thing; it makes sense for Catra's character, I don't think it's out of line with what we've seen of her at all, or even makes her a badly written character. But I don't think it can really be called a 'redemption arc', either. To compare, Zuko wanted acceptance too, first from the Fire Nation and then from the Gaang, both of whom initially rejected him, and human connection helped him realize there was a better way. But he also didn't become a hero because he wanted people to like him, he became a hero through the painstaking process of learning his lesson, and making up for the damage he'd caused, over and over again. I actually haven't seen any of the other shows in this video, so I can't make comparisons to the rest, but I feel like a simple change the writers could've used to improve her redemption arc would be to show in the scene where she conquers Salineas not just that she's sad Scorpia isn't there with her anymore, but that, upon seeing the damage up close and personal, she realized for the first time the true weight of what she was doing and could no longer disassociate the places she conquered from the people living there.

[@breadeater1194]

The interesting thing with Steven Universe, is that it doesn't take the shortcut of having a "source of evil" you can blame for the characters' bad actions (Belos for Hunter, Ozai for Zuko, the Core for Andrias). Even the people at the very top of all the tragedy that happens in this story... can just change. I see the Diamonds as not so much redeemed, but strategically dealt with non-violently. Not so much an ideal ending as the one that is most feasible for the characters given the dynamics they are in. Even She-Ra takes this "source of evil" approach, with Shadow Weaver and Prime. But it just didn't give Catra and Hordak a satisfying dynamic of moving past that person and recognizing that what they did was wrong, they just saw the humanity in the people they were hurting. Hordak really is a less developed Andrias, the Ramses-like tyrant who has to move past the father figure pressuring him to rule with an iron fist. But Hordak is also the Josef Stalin-esque "well he helped prevent a Worse Fascism so *shrug*"

[@skyrimassassin5626]

Honestly, the Owl House gets a pass on both Hunter and the Collector because it got cut short by an entire season. I get what you mean when you mention them but that's not because of bad writing or mistakes (Except on Disney executives parts) but because they had to skip a lot of stuff to get to the finish. Hopefully this wasn't a rant just felt I needed to mention this

[@sauteedlimes219]

Catra’s redemption is definitely my least favorite. It feels SO RUSHED. Like she kept choosing to make terrible decisions. She knew the horde was a bad place that did bad things but she didnt tell adora. And when adora finds out and wants to leave, catra gets mad at her. Like??? Then all of a sudden shes welcomed into the princess squad. No one has a serious problem with catra, literally the person who attacked and burn down their homes, joining them.

[@simonessays]

EXACTLY. Like if I was Glimmer and I saw what was happening with Catra, I would try to get violent really quickly. I can’t believe they just like brushed off all the crap Catra did.

[@falconeshield]

​@@simonessays They didn't brush off what Glimmer did either with the heart, but Prime took priority over past mistakes. Did you all forget Frosta punching Catra out? She may have joined the good guys but it was so satisfying to watch and I love her character. 😂

[@secretcastle1380]

The reason she kept making terrible decisions was clearly out of fear and continually doubling down on those disision because she doesn’t think she has anywhere to go I feel like the problem is that Catra is always a character that tries to hurry her emotions into her work than to properly work through them Catra did know the Horde was evil and Catra thought Andora new when she says “duhh did you just figure that out?” She didn’t care the Horde was evil because she wanted to rule the Horde

[@cartoonking1789]

@@secretcastle1380 she knew the horde was bad and had no problem doing those horrible things so long as SHE came out on top.

[@omegastar19]

@@cartoonking1789 you are looking at this from an outsiders perspective. Catra knows the Horde is bad. Unfortunately it is also the only thing she knows in her world - its literally pointed out that shes never been outside the Fright Zone in the first episode. And because of the way Catra grew up - raised as a child soldier, heavily abused by Shadow Weaver - she has come to see the world as an inherently evil place. Meaning she is assuming that any place outside the Horde is also going to be a bad place. She assumes that the princesses are just as bad as the Horde. So why would she leave the Horde?

[@ibrahimihsan2090]

Zuko is a master not only because I liked his design as a kid but because of the role they gave him. He's the perfect redeemed character for children's shows because you know he's not a terrible person, he is just misguided and somewhat vulnerable.

[@melomaniacwallflower]

The main thing that annoys me SO much with Catra is that she kept blaming Adora and saying Adora left her when every single time Adora saw Catra she literally asked Catra to come with her. If Adora was the only thing Catra cared about, why did it matter who's side they were on? Like so much of the stuff Catra did was just unnecessary and hurt herself and everyone else in the long run. Imo, Catra's the one who left Adora. She REFUSED every opportunity she had to go with Adora until the very end for her "redemption". I haven't watched She-Ra in a long time, so I've probably forgot a lot of details. I apologize if I seem biased, I'm going off of my terrible memory.

[@faffywhosmilesatdeath5953]

You're asking an abused teenager suffering from CPTSD to make rational decisions. Catra adapted to being in the Horde. It wasn't safe, but it was familiar. The rebellion was an uncertain place filled with people she was taught were dangerous enemies. In her mind, she was okay in the Horde despite the constant threat of abuse from Shadow Weaver because Adora was there to fight for her worth. Hell, Shadow Weaver straight up said the only reason she didn't kill Catra or leave her to die in the wastes was because Adora wanted her around. To her amused mind: if Adora comes back then she'll keep her safe as she always had and they can take care of each other ("as friends" wink nudge). If she goes with Adora there's still so much unknown, so much danger. It's not certain, it's not safe, and her traumatized mind reels at the thought. The way to deal with being trapped in cycles of abuse and trauma is to do anything different. Break patterns. However, that very solution is the one thing that's nearly impossible to do without outside help.

[@x_rouxi_ian_x4804]

Catras very own enemy is her mind. The horde is a shitty place, catra knows that but its whats familiar to her. She knows every part of the horde and she knows whats to expect, she can control her life in the horde no matter how shitty it is. But in the outside world she knows nothing to expect, she doesnt know the places, people nor does she know what to expect from them and that intimidates her. Being vulnerable is something catra doesnt know how to show and she refuses to get hurt more than she is now. She also refuse to follow anyone except her own and when her actions doesnt make sense she doubles down on it until it does, she hates being confused and avoids/ run away from feelings because being angry is easier than facing confrontation. At the end, she doesnt understand why people dont see what makes sense to her because she refuse to see things in others perspective than her own. She gave up after understanding she couldnt make sense of her actions anymore, all her actions are just her defense mechanism and her way of coping to things that doesnt go her way. She hates not being in control, she hates unfamiliar outcomes and she got tired of trying of making it work so she gave up and for once, let herself be vulnerable to glimmer and confront her actions. She acknowledged and accepted help and tried to confront all the people shes wronged and thats why people likes her redemption. Catras situation is more realistic than you thought, being angry is like a habit or addiction she had ever since she was little and at the end it feels like she finally accepted help to get rid of her addiction and acknowledge theres something wrong with her while rekindling her broken relationship with people she hurt.

[@UrMentalHealth]

I heard arguments saying she was mad at Adora, not for leaving her, but NOT leaving for her. For Catra it was obvious they were the bad guys, she was mad that harm towards some random people made Adore open her eyes and not harm towards her.

[@Leeeg]

I think that's the whole point. There are people who will act like that and wrongly see things that way. I think its great that we get to see a character in that mindset and that we see her delusion get shattered, causing her to rethink everything and finally, even after being so far gone, trying to walk the right path. Whether she's "redeemed" in your eyes isn't the point. Her value, in my opinion, is in the hope she gives to those on a similar path to her.

[@sayori9106]

I saw an interesting video about the Collector in season 2 vs season 3 and why hes so different. The idea that the collector simply was just a child and saw Belos for the time being as his only friend and began to mimmick his behaviors and tendensies while still being playful and silly like he usually is. Which makes sense, kids do try and mimmick the adults in their life when they're lonely.

[@my_universe1290]

Are we finally at a level in retrospect to say Catra’s redemption arc was not only rushed but completely undeserved? *LETS GOOOOOO*

[@bdariamihaela]

That's the thing about Andrias, he didn't get a full redemption arc. His ending isn't a happy one, he gave up the throne and started repairing the damage he had done while he is slowly dying. If it was a simple complete redemption he would have stayed king, or at least in power and have a happy ending, but he doesn't. It's not enough to say that he regrets what he has done he has do make things right, and he will do that untill his last breath

[@MichaelJW72]

I always preferred to view Andrias as atoning for his actions rather than being redeemed.

[@452pokemaster]

One thing that I really like about Zuko and Hunter's redemption arcs is that they both have someone who sticks with them through it all and offers unrelenting care and support, even when the other characters shun them. Zuko has Iroh and Hunter has Flapjack, but they both disregard that support in favour of seeking approval from someone who ultimately doesn't care about them at all. On top of that, their arcs only come to fruition when they realize just how much that support means to them. Sure, some other characters are optimistic that these two can change for the better, but they wouldn't come to be redeemed if they didn't have positive influence in their lives.

[@crystalpokedude4329]

I think what gives Andrias a pass here is that he's not pampered in the ending. Catra gets with Adora and lives happily ever after. Andrias becomes a homeless man who wanders the plains with an arm and a leg missing, tending to the ecosystem he nearly destroyed entirely. Redeemed villains shouldn't be coddled.

[@erichughes2024]

Mhmm! Say it louder for the unnecessary coddlers in the back! 😏🤣🥰

[@EmperorOfApathy]

It’s really sad that several character arcs and ideas never got explored in the owl house. Disney did Dana dirty with the early cancellation.

[@Dricor]

Ok, I would like to preface this with saying that this video was very well-done, and you raised many points that had never crossed my mind in multiple sections of it. But there are a couple of things I would like to mention. The first one is something that I have already seen multiple comments talking about, that being that most likely the biggest reason for Hunter's redemption arc being somewhat unexplored, especially in the backstory department, is that season 3 of the Owl House was cut short, and both seasons 2 and the 3 longer episodes that pass as season 3 were not what the writers had originally planned. And I think that given this, and the limited amount of screen-time they were left to work with, Hunter's arc was quite impressive. And just to continue talking about Owl House for a bit, I'll touch on Lilith and the Collector's arcs as well. I agree with almost all of what you said about Lilith, however one thing I would like to mention is that, at least the way I see it, the reason her redemption going so smoothly and quickly in terms of the way the other characters viewed her was less due to her relationship with Eda, and more about the extremity of the actions she took at the end of season 1, and her evident remorse during that time. As for the Collector, I personally feel that, again taking into account the cutting of a full third season, his arc was pretty much perfect. His characterization as a child with trust issues makes the change in his attitude and actions with Belos and King feel natural, as he is in a way reflecting what they are showing him in an attempt to prevent them from abandoning him like the Archivists did, which was something you touched on somewhat but didn't really explore. These two characters make a pretty solid transition into what I really want to talk about here, that being Catra. First, a couple disclaimers. Catra is my favorite SheRa character, so I might have a little bit of bias, but I'll try to avoid letting that effect what I'm saying. Also, and this is kind of a reiteration of what I said in the beginning of this way-too-long comment, you raised some really good points when talking about her arc. I just finished watching season 5 of SheRa a couple weeks ago, and I honestly didn't really think about how most of the reactions to Catra's redemption really didn't make since, but you are absolutely right on that count. With the exception of Glimmer and maybe Adora, the reactions are far too chill for the magnitude of this change. Now, this may have also been a timing issue, as I have no idea whether or not SheRa could have had a longer 5th season, or even a season 6, that would have allowed them to flesh out the change more. However, they absolutely could have done a far better job than they did in writing the interactions between Catra and the other characters in the later parts of season 5 without taking away from the resolution of the story. I feel that Bow especially should have been much more hesitant after rescuing Catra from Horde Prime. But that's not really what I want to discuss, as you covered it quite well in the video. What I really want to talk about (and yes, I know I took a ridiculously long time to get here, thanks to everyone who has gotten this far without giving up reading me ramble) is Catra's motives and development throughout the show. My main issue with what you said about Catra in the video is in her motives. Let's be honest, Catra has a lot of trauma. The toxic and abusive relationship between her and Shadowweaver, and her being all but shunned by everyone in the Horde except Adora during her childhood, are a couple of prime examples of what she has had to deal with before the show even begins. So when, at least from her perspective, Adora abandons her for Glimmer and Bow, it spurs her to becoming the show's antagonist. I believe much of the banter between the "Best Friend Squad" and Catra is her masking the pain she feels from this, which left her alone in the Horde after the one person she thought she could count on to always be there, and indeed who had promised to always be there, was gone, having joined forces with the people they had grown up being taught to hate. So my first big disagreement with what you said is that, at least in my opinion, Catra doesn't take joy in her actions. Sure, she outwardly appears to, but that is just a mask she puts on to avoid showing weakness, something that I'll get more into in a minute. In reality, these actions are eating away at her inside. Her pushing down these emotions is what fuels her decent into evil, along with the whole Shadowweaver situation. Indeed, Shadowweaver leaving her, after manipulating her for the millionth time might I add, and joining Adora and the princesses is what pushes Catra over the edge. This marks a shift in her character, becoming much less playful, and far more angry. At this point, there is no disputing her as the true villain. Quick side note, I really need to re-watch SheRa, because I took a large break between watching season 4 and season 5, and my timeline is kinda off as to when what happened, so this next part is a bit messy, sorry. Catra's trauma really comes to a head over the next arc of the show. She becomes much more violent and impulsive, lashing out frequently at those around her as she devolves into a trust-no-one mindset. Here, you can somehow feel her trying to be better at times, only to quash those feelings and lash out again and again. She seems to revel in hurting the Princesses not because she enjoys it, but because her life has taught her that the only way to avoid getting hurt it to strike first, hit hard, and let no-one in. The way she pushes away Scorpia, who in another reality could have been the one to show Catra that there are people you can trust if she had been given the chance, is a prime example of this, but there are many others. In a way, her breakdowns in the form of lashing out at everyone around her show that she is not evil, just hurting. And can we really blame her for the way she reacts? The closest thing Catra has ever had to a mother was Shadowweaver, who was not only a manipulative piece of s**t who lowered her self-worth at every opportunity and clearly thought she was a waste of space, but left her for Adora, and given that it's remarkable Catra didn't turn out worse. The bottom line is, Catra can't let herself be happy, because she doesn't feel she deserves to. She comes so close in the Crimson Wastes arc to allowing herself to just be... herself. Once she's free from the stifling confines of the Horde, she changes drastically. But it's not quite enough, and indeed sends her spiraling deeper and deeper. The end of this arc, of course, is when Catra goes fully off the deep end. I could go further into why this happens, but I'm trying to wrap this up as this comment is way too long already and I have more to say. But basically, after the events with the opening of the portal, Catra is stuck. She knows that she has dug herself far too deep a hole to ever get out of, and so she just kinda... gives up trying. She leans into her anger. And so while at the end of season 4, there has been no real or obvious set-up for her redemption, I believe that her spiral into villainy actually was the set-up. Her giving up fighting the image of her that everyone else has, and fully accepting the role of villain that has been thrust upon her time and time again, leads to her redemption. To escape her trauma, or at least learn to deal with it, she had to accept it. Her having given up like this, and the self-hatred this causes, sets up the scene where she saves Glimmer and sacrifices herself perfectly. And it is also the reason for the way she acts after Adora saves her, because she doesn't trust herself, and doesn't believe she deserves to be saved. Ok, so I kinda stopped making sense at the end, but I needed to wrap this up as it is waaaay too long. To anyone who actually read the whole thing, I applaud your dedication to reading my rambling comment on a 10-month-old video about cartoons. Honestly, I very well might do some research and make my own video about Catra's character and redemption arc, but who knows. Once again I would like to say that I loved this video, and it was very well-thought out. Also, I know I didn't get into the Catra-Entrapta situation at all, I really just needed to finish my thoughts, but it is also an important factor in Catra's arc. But yeah, if this comment gets a lot of attention for some reason (or maybe even if it doesn't) I very well might expand on this in a video. Otherwise, these thoughts may just be lost to time. Anyways I have no idea how to end this, so um... thanks for reading?

[@moonbeam0505]

🔥🔥🔥

[@mariaandcrobat]

Thank you for this video, I HATE Catra's "redemption arc" and I hate Catradora thanks to her awful arc, she did ONE good thing and everyone forgave her, meanwhile, Glimmer made one honest mistake and it took her many chapters to be forgiven by Bow. Catra is, without a doubt, a horrible person, even if she was abused, even if she did what she did because she was broken, or traumatized, or because she felt lonely, she has comitted such atrocious acts that I hardly understand how she was fogiven so quickly by everyone or how she was forgiven at all. She was indeed the writers favorite and they rushed her arc only because Catradora mattered more than anything else on the show

[@charmander297aj8]

Finally someone else in the fandom who has common sense on wtf is actually happening in the show. In my opinion there was no redemption tbh. The whole show is littered with bad writing for the sake of Catra **being good** they made it to where everyone forgave her because people behind the scenes favored her compared to the rest of the cast which I find complete bs. She isn’t that good of a person. She isn’t special. I was cheering on Frosta when she punched her in the face. Catra deserved it. In all honesty they made the characters out of character when they forgave Catra so easily. Especially Glimmer. So what if they had a small understanding on Primes ship? That’s enough to forgive someone who tortured you and your friends for years? Ok. No she’s a short tempered person who holds a grudge. Bow also felt out of character being so forgiving when he’s known Glimmer since they were little. It took him multiple episodes to process what Glimmer has done and to forgive her. That emotional processing felt real. So this genocide maniac who tortured everyone for literal years, abused the shit out of Adora since they were kids and continuing, gets forgiven after doing ONE THING? Meanwhile Glimmer makes one huge mistake and everyone in the fandom hates her? That’s bs. So what if she yelled at Adora? People need to learn not to be so sensitive. She was in the middle of mourning her supposed dead mother while ruling an entire kingdom during a war and mass invasion. how tf you want her to react? She realized she did something wrong and was going to apologize. Another thing I’d like to add is that the romance was pulled out of thin air for the sake of making Catra look good. I had initially thought they were originally going with a sister troupe not lovers- because that would make sense. However they went with lovers and it makes her look worse. Catra threw herself onto Adora and expected her to love her and yet- we never actually get to see Adora’s opinion. she just- accepts it? The ship is forced and filled with toxic energy. Apologies for rambling I just wanted to give my two cents. I could ramble on for hours if someone doesn’t stop me.

[@mariaandcrobat]

@@charmander297aj8 Omg please you can ramble about this shitty show for as long as you want. Everyone in the fandom overlooked the mess that Catra was for the sake of their toxic ship and the writers are to blame, they made awful choices writing Catra because "yeeahh gay ship go brrr", I mean, I love gay ships, Lumity has all my heart, but not only because they are gay, they are also a healthy and cute couple, not like Catradora. Everyone wanted Catra to be good because she is hot and gay, but that's not how things work, she killed many people, she manipulated everyone she came into contact, she tortured, she was cruel, you can't justify her actions in any way and everyone just felt out of character in season 5. Adora, Bow and Glimmer were the first ones to see the destruction and death of the war, the war that was leaded by Catra. And the worst thing is that they showed a good redemption arc with Glimmer! Bow took his time to forgive Glimmer, and you could understand Glimmer's actions because, they were going to destroy everything she knew, the legacy that her DEAD MOTHER left her. She did things wrong, but she did what she thought was good and ultimately she changed. But then the lesbian cat lady does one good thing and everyone loves her!! Because the writers wanted to end the series with a kiss!! A kiss between an manipulator, an abuser and a killer and one of her victims!! How cute! It's gay guys, so it's all perfect!! Yeah I hate that ship. And if you pay attention, neither Catra nor Adora were shown to be interested in eachother until season 5. Even the famous dancing escene is filled with hatred and despised. Catradora is the best example about how not to make an enemies to lovers, and also, as you said, they saw each other as sisters, yikes

[@charmander297aj8]

@@mariaandcrobat Dude if you give me the power to ramble on I will never shut up. At that point it be easier to call someone to talk to with. I’m always up for that. I feel like the show suffered a major blow when it came down to the writing and story building. There wasn’t much of any world building if you think about it. If you go deeper into the show itself everything happened just for Adora’s and Catra’s character development. Hardly any of the characters got their own story which had nothing to do with either of the two. It’s like they were only there for their purpose not their own. All the flashbacks we ever got were mainly from those two and no one else except for glimmers which was a five second flashback. I would have loved to see more about the other characters that have nothing to do with Adora or Catra. Just who they are and their kingdom/history. Especially Scorpia I would have loved to see a flashback in time on what really happened to them. What about the Crimson waste? I would’ve love to see other episodes circling that place rather than having to use for Adora‘s plot. Another thing that bothers me is that people tend to forget what actual character development really is. So what if the character is LGTBQ+ related? Does that automatically make them a lovable character? I guess so it must be that easy to get liked. I guarantee you if Catra was placed as a physical realistic person in our world, people would hate her and fear her. But instead she is a character who is a supposed gay hot cat woman which draws all the attention and that’s enough for people I guess. Now I’m not saying she’s the worst character in existence but she’s pretty close. I did like how they wrote her as the villain rising above her original leader and kind of took over that position. That was a neat transition I’ll admit however it was just kind of went downhill for her character/personality. lumity is a perfect example of how enemies to lovers trope should work out. It took her nearly an entire season or two just to get on good terms with Luz. Yet here comes Catra With her one good deed and somehow everyone is cheering her on like she just saved the world. Speaking of I know I might get hate for this but I despised the moment where they kiss. The fact that the toxic kiss was the thing that saves the universe really ticks me off. All the world is in danger: let’s just kiss! Why did Adora sign up for that? That was all out of character. she was just so excepting of it as if she just gave up on everything in that very moment which still doesn’t make any sense. Glimmers redemption ark was fought with peril in season four. Distancing herself from other people just for the sake of her own concerning views. I’d like to add that at the time Adora was practically stealing glimmers role as queen which was already frustrating enough for her to deal with. Glimmer was right they were pushing her away. No one asked for her opinion no one was bringing her into their conversations or discussions it was more like a slap to the face at the last minute. I was on her side when she refused her friends to go to beast Island and search for a person who’s likely dead. She was just trying to protect her friends and yet people are against glimmer for it. sorry she was trying to keep the only people she has left alive. :/ it’s really painful when you rewatch the show and see how horrible it really is. I recently had found out they sacrificed a lot of plots and deleted scenes that would’ve proved beneficial for the other characters but they pulled them out because it didn’t have any use towards Catra or Adora meaning the main plot so they pulled it. I know this might sound scary so you don’t have to if you don’t want too I completely understand. We could exchange discord and we could have a whole conversation or call about this so we don’t litter KZbin comments with our nerding out XD I’m all up for that I am extremely friendly and as an extrovert I normally kidnap people >:3 but like I said I can totally understand if you don’t wanna do that. No pressure at all ^_^

[@mariaandcrobat]

@@charmander297aj8 Omg all of your points are absolutely great, the worldbuilding of the series is almost none existent and the plot only focus on Catra and Adora, I literally don't remember anything good about the series except that I love Entrapta, Scorpia and Glimmer (because she is the best character), but I have to admit that Catra's writing as as villain was wonderful, she was intimidating, she was cruel and she was the literal meaning of destruction. And I COMPLETLY AGREE WITH YOU, THE KISS WAS TERRIBLE, THE BUILT UP THE FINAL TO JUST BE SOLVED WITH A FREAKING KISS!! A KISS THAT ADORA JUST HAPPENS TO LIKE, EVEN IF SHE DIDN'T CONSENT IT. And also, I'm devasted about those scenes and deleted plots, She-ra coul've been so much better... At least we have the fantastic The Owl House with it's excellent characters (that actually have a personality and interesting arcs) and it's excellent worldbuilding and plot. And yeah! You can add me on discord so we can chat, my discord is María&Crobat #5496

[@charmander297aj8]

@@mariaandcrobat I’d love to continue our conversation!! I had just sent you a friend request! I’m Gremlin Aroura

[@voidresident_m4r127]

With the Owl house, it’s redemptions are definitely flawed. Unfortunately, they didn’t have enough time to develop further but even then, the fact the made an okay redemption for the Collector goes to show how great the writers are. If the show wasn’t cancelled, it’s possible the collector could be close to Hunter’s redemption.

[@L0rdOfThePies]

Yeah, i wish they were able to touch on the collector and his time with king showing a different side of him little more, perhaps king’s expectations of him are subverted and or he slowly realises that the collector isn’t really thinking about anything hes doing seriously like king has had to think about. He recognises the kid is out of touch but hes not sure what to do other than gently nudge him in the right direction which culminates in w&d when he realises what death is really like and it couldve reminded him of his time with the baby titans as they all go missing

[@yolo-sm1sd]

Disney's fault...

[@voidresident_m4r127]

@@soberman1958 Personally, I think Hunter’s arc is great. His slow realisation that Belos is wrong is slowly built up through his interactions with others which he never got a chance to do. This made him develop into being redeemed. What I also notice is Belos knows that the Golden Guards he creates will betray him. This is based off the fact he sent Hunter to get Selcidomous Scales and in For The Future where he tries to possess a Grimwalker he was making presumably while Hunter was still the Golden Guard. For Lilith, she was promised Eda would be healed if she caught her and when that promise was broken, she saw the error of her ways and helped her sister by taking part of the spell. She definitely feels horrible for cursing Eda but there isn’t any hard feelings because Eda understands they were younger back then and she has come to accept the curse.

[@sweetbubblegum55]

Fun fact: if owl house wasn't cut short, the collector wouldn'tve existed. It would be interesting to see what the show could've been if Disney didn't axed it

[@damkylan3]

@@soberman1958 I don’t even like Hunter or his redemption but to call it rushed while praising Collector’s is absolute clownery. Just saying things to say them. Hunter’s half-baked arc took up WAY too much time, actively leeching off of other characters to do so.

[@amn2760]

Zuko obviously had the greatest redemption arc of any show ever aired. The most common reason many redemption arcs fail is because they just skip the whole arc like a character born as antagonist but then suddenly decides to join the side of protagonists. A redemption arc is like a journey, the character has to go through courses of struggle to understand what's right and wrong just like you having to go through courses to arrive at your destination.

[@toadlord8594]

Honestly People don’t know WHAT they want in a redemption arc these days. Or even understand what Redemption even means anymore. Whether it’s “not enough” or “needed more time” or “rushed”. People will bitch and moan about what kind of “redemption” they wish to see the character go through cause it’s never not gonna be perfect to them. Personally unless they’re on the Writing staff or in charge of said Character getting a redemption arc themselves than it’s just constant whining, modern writers are doing their best damn, they can’t All be like Zuko’s.

[@erichughes2024]

Right? Like Sara Lance said in Arrow season 7, episode 18, "Redemption isn't a destination, it's a journey."

[@joa0332]

I never liked the "redemption arc of catra" She manipulated the whole show, hurt adora psychologically and literally and in the ending she just like: "Hey adora we dating now" (My English is kind of bad lol)

[@blkpplareabsolutelygorgeou1691]

agreed

[@GaribaldHludwig]

Facts bro

[@derinwithaq5811]

Nah, but everyone’s entitled to an opinion

[@delurces.delgado4352]

Facts.

[@universalpower419]

@@derinwithaq5811 Yeah and some opinions are wrong, yours as an aexample.

[@Pinkywinkykinky]

I wouldn't mind longer content, especially with topics like this and I think you had good points and love Catra personally more than all the other antagonists on this video but I know the girl has problems

[@falconeshield]

She could've left and been happy in Brightmoon but her pride and hurt refused that. It took her five sesosns to realise that she was the one who broke her promise not Adora.

[@IsThisUsernameAvailable]

I hate how they sacrificed a perfect opportunity with She-Ra to tell kids you can "save the world" by simply recognizing your worth, without any romantic component being add into the equation. Adora's whole journey is about how she puts others' safety and feelings first to the point she's willing to die to protect everyone. I wish that at the end of the show Adora's own recognition of value and love for herself was what saved the world, and also Catra realizing she CAN LIVE WITHOUT ADORA, this is so confusing to me, I don't get why they wanted Catradora to be a thing when Catra spent the entire show hunting Adora down, mistreating her, abusing her and trying to unalive her, but at the end she's like "I've always loved you", it feels so weird. I would have wished for Catra to heal by herself somewhere else, not being with Adora, and I wish Adora's happy ending would have been one that taught kids a meaningful message instead of "love saves the world even if it's with someone that abused you for years"

[@cosmiquealiene6168]

The sad truth is...the writers set out from the start with the intention of making a show with a Sapphic romance the centre of it all, but bungled it horribly, to the point where the show would have been way much better without the romance angle.

[@retrorewind844]

I don’t mind a romance between these two, but I feel their romance overshadowed many chances of developing them individually.

[@vincent_ek]

Nunca en mi vida habia estado tan de acuerdo con un comentario

[@CheshireCad]

The writers could have had their cake and eat it too. Just have Katra and Adora start their romance at the end of the epilogue. Show that they've given each other time to heal from the guilt and pain, and for Katra to live in a healthy and supportive environment. Katra is confident that she no longer *needs* Adora, but after talking it out, they both agree that they *want* to be together. They kiss. The music swells dramatically. Rainbows shoot out of their nipples. Roll credits.

[@DarkMasterofCupcakes]

The issue is that the writers wanted to have a same sex relationship for the main character....but didn't make sure that it was written well. Honestly, I don't think it would have been impossible for the two to eventually get into a relationship, but the way the show was written did not lead up to the idea of them getting together in the end. Not only does it really seem to come out of nowhere with how horribly Catra treats Adora throughout the whole series (and I feel like the show realizes this, considering how heavy-handed all of the "ship tease" moments are for Adora and Catra in Season 5), but I almost feel like it negates the message I feel like they were trying to go for with Adora - that she needs to put value in herself as a person, not in what other people want from her? It just feels weird to try and give that message...then almost immediately push her into a relationship with someone who is shown to be pretty bad for her? On a minor side note, everyone talks about Catra specifically not wanting Adora as being super romantic....but it kind of comes across as selfish to me? Mostly because of what Catra says when Melog tries to get her to go back after she leaves. She doesn't say anything about not wanting Adora to die or something that really indicates she cares about Adora herself. Her main concern is that "Adora doesn't want me like I want her". Which I don't think was intentional, but really just makes me feel like Catra hasn't grown past her viewpoint that Adora has to prioritize Catra over everything and everyone else. Which makes me concerned for their relationship and future.

[@augustthenuz984]

I'm surprised Andreas was covered here when Sasha wasn't. She's got my personal favorite redemption arc actually(even if Zuko's is probably overall written better). I think the reason she works so well is because she doesn't have any excuses. We know almost nothing about her parents, there's no one that caused her to do any bad stuff all we know is that she is just a manipulative jerk. It makes it all the more satisfying when she ends up seeing how her actions hurt others and how bad of a person she was and, again, without making any excuses, decides to change for the better. Also, unlike some other characters, the sole reason she changes is for her friends. The antagonists have very little to do with why she actually changes, what finally makes her realize she needs to change is talking to people who knew and befriended Anne as well as reading her Journal. "I wanna be someone better. Someone that deserves you."

[@toadlord8594]

Yeah I believe that what make Sasha’s arc more compelling to me than Hunter of Amity’s. Usually with characters like Sasha we have to go with “they were abused at home!” or the tragic past but Matt Braly did something pretty different with Sasha in not giving her Anyone to blame for her actions and past attitude but herself, which makes her Turning Point” come Season 3 the more satisfying. Sasha had to learn the hard way about the consequences HERSELF, and at 13 years old. It’s honestly the most Most Adults and troubled kids in real life could hardly do that. It’s why Sasha’s arc inspires me more than Anne’s Journey did in my opinion.

[@transenby42622]

4:55 I think that the reason why it wasn't explored is because A, Owl House got cut short so they couldn't fit that in, and B, because the Hexsquad has bigger problems to deal with. It would have been really compelling to see everyone work this out, but again, not enough time. There's also the possibility that they don't fully understand what Grimwalkers are and therefore don't understand why this is such a big deal. Or the just don't care because Hunter lost Flap that night and they all have baggage and if they can forgive Luz they can forgive Hunter.

[@DLxxx]

Honestly, I always found the emphasis on Hunter hiding that he's a Grimwalker to be.. weird. Logically, it's less about how the _others_ will react (since it wouldn't mean anything to them), and more that Hunter himself just doesn't want to deal with it. There's no real drama to be had, which is why my issue is less about their short reactions and more that it was made such a big deal as a "secret" in the first place. There's also the fact that the entire thing is a continuity error, lol. Hunter cannonically DID NOT KNOW what he was a clone of at the end of S2. He explicitly said during _Clouds on the Horizon_ that he wasn't sure if the person he was cloned from was a witch or a human. All he knew was that "Belos made them dissappear." Because Hunter never learned about Caleb, it's baffling for him to say he was a clone of a witch hunter when he and Luz talked about it the *same night* they got back to the human realm. I guess the writers just sort of threw that in there for the sake of drama.. 🤷🏿‍♂️

[@transenby42622]

@@DLxxx Oh my God I never even realized that. Ok, that clears up pretty much everything!!! The only other possibility is if you believe the fan theory that Flapjack was Evelyn's palisman, and therefore told Hunter.

[@MrWanton16]

@@DLxxx Yes he did? The full line is "all I know is that I'm a copy of someone Belos made disappear." He knows grimmwalkers are clones in btw Hollow Mind and LR given he has books on the subject in the school area where he was hiding out.

[@teresadudley1524]

Hunter knew he was a clone, so for the internal struggle it could simply be that he was trying to figure out where he Began and the person he was a clone of ended and at the end of the episode the sign he was a grim walker ( the purple eyes) was gone P.S if the team had more episodes to work with there probably would have been one dedicated to hunter as a grim walker

[@delurces.delgado4352]

If it was true , the writers would've mention it in the live about the end of the show. They had the entire season 2b and the season 3 to handle that. Hello 👋🏾, Avatar was able to redeem Zuko in 3 seasons as well. But instead, they waste time torturing Hunter instead of improving is character and the episode For the Future is a so odd, especially because we spend time with uninteresting villains instead of development the Hexquad respectives traumas.

[@Barakon]

13:24 Adora was the golden child while Catra was the “trouble making” scapegoat. So of course she’d do anything for validation, to get out of Adora’s shadow.

[@yoursonisold8743]

The real monster of the story is Shadowweaver. She is probably the most manipulative and most terrible person in the entire show. She is the major reason for why catra did turn out so twisted. And the best part is that the show actively shows you the difference between real redemption and self-satisfaction. When Shadowweaver sacrifices herself and expects to be redeemed she does it just as a last way to mark the girls. They owe her. That's what her self-made redemption is. Catra actually feels guilty, torn, disgusted by herself and collapses constantly. Her sacrifice for Glimmer was not because she wanted to be redeemed, it was an actual selfless act. When she followed Adora and prevented her from sacrificing herself it was out of genuine love. Catra is flawed as hell, but she is a regretful person and she loathes herself enough to want redemption. This juxtaposition is actually quite amazing and often gets overlooked.

[@xeph8288]

@@yoursonisold8743 I'm so glad other people see this

[@zephyrschiesser5408]

Ya, I disagree with him on Catra's backstory not being a "good" enough motivation. Especially when he says that Adora turned out so much different. Like... ya?? That's the point, the are not the same.

[@missconstruct6968]

Catra is literally an attempted genocidal maniac 🙃 she's spend the entire show calling Adora stupid and worthless and telling her that everything is her fault. The exact same things Adora constantly tells herself and Catra says it with a massive smile, enjoying herself when Adora feels her absolute lowest

[@xeph8288]

@MissConstruct Here's the thing: Does Catra actually think Adora is stupid and worthless? No. It's projection. Catra feels like the stupid and worthless one (especially evident in S4). Now, that's no excuse for what Catra says to Adora, but there's a mountain of evidence that shows she's really talking about herself when she insults Adora. All that self-loathing turns Catra into a monster even *she* doesn't recognize.

[@xmant8842]

When it comes to the collector, i realized almost immediately that he wasn't really evil. Ever since that first dream where king heard collector talking and collector goes "wait wait wait! Dont leave! Come back!", i knew immediately that he was not really a bad person

[@RandoSando.]

Catra's "redemption arc" is non-existent. She said sorry 3 episodes before the shows finale and was magically forgiven despite killing glimmers' mom and being abusive to adora her entire life. I watched the show because people were hyping it up as this masterpiece of representation, but it's a glorified abuse fic. I wouldn't have even minded them getting together years after the war if catra had gotten extensive therapy, and her and adora both dated other people for a while. Them getting together towards the end of the was was tone deaf and gross. Especially with catra still verbally abusing adora?? Also it's dumb af that catra admitted to always loving adorable yet has tried to kill/ maim her multiple times in the show. That gave me such whiplash watching it.

[@retrorewind844]

I agree that the ending is off putting

[@vincent_ek]

Totalmente de acuerdo, hasta el ultimo maldito instante Catra seguia insultando a Adora, no pudo ser por lo minimo un poco amable hasta el ultimo estupido momento. Leo muchas historias o tengo muchos shipps en donde los personajes tambien se insultan para demostrar su amor, pero es mutuo o es un proceso lento en donde: Personaje A: "Eres un imbecil" Personaje B: "Mirate en un espejo tarado" Se transforma luego de un CORRECTO ARCO DE PERSONAJE a: Personaje A: (esta avergonzado pero esta tratando de ser fuerte y demostrar lo que siente) "De acuerdo, es muy dificil para mi decir eso, pero Te amo idiota" Personaje B: (sorpendido por la confesion de B): "Yo tambien te quiero B" (se abrazan y juntos van a terapia) Pero esto fue simplemente ridiculo, Adora JAMAS le hizo daño a Catra mas que una que otra vez cuando intentaba NO MORIR, entonces me estas diciendo que AMABAS a una persona que maltrataste, insultaste, denigraste, manipulaste e intentaste matar durante años. Muchas veces Catra dejo a Adora a morir a su suerte sin mirar atras ¿Y si Adora no hubira sobrevivido? Siento tanta lastima por la rubia, huyo de la zona del terror, pero ahora esta junto a alguien que no hara mas que maltratarla hasta el fin de sus dias.

[@fluffyphoenix8082]

I so, SO agree. I'm queer myself and we need representation, but like... GOOD representation. So I felt like I was going absolutely insane when people were screaming about how good the finale was and the awesome sapphic representation in She-Ra, and I'm sitting here like... how? How is this good representation?! I'm not saying Catra can't change - she's clearly been through a lot and is a victim of abuse herself. But the way they handled it was off. It felt triumphant to me when Adora FINALLY acknowledged that Catra's trauma wasn't her fault, that Adora being abused by Catra was inexcusable and she had done nothing to deserve it. What a powerful moment for any abuse victims watching. Then they go and throw it all into the garbage by ending the show with "oh but if your abuser changes it's totally okay to get back together with them". Excuse me?! That's how the cycle of abuse often goes - the abused thinks their abuser has finally changed their ways and they keep giving the abuser chance after chance after chance, and it turns into a horrific cycle. To me the ending felt far too encouraging of that exact cycle, and it left me with a very bad taste.

[@RushWheeler]

Adorable 💀

[@doratheshade]

@@fluffyphoenix8082 It's like Abuela from Encanto all over again

[@lightninggod123]

I like the longer length of the video, it allowed you to discuss the topics more in depth. You don’t have to apologize for it's length. Great Job!

[@justarandomchick767]

if i remember corectly they also added zuko as a character last minute. wich in my opinion makes it even more impressive how well he's written. his redemtion arc so far has been the best i've seen in media

[@awkwardpotato5971]

Oh, how I wish we could have had a whole episode dedicated to Hunter's backstory, and for the whole 'finding out he's a grimwalker' thing to take it's course with everyone...It's possible for a spin-off to feature Caleb and Philip's backstory, maybe also the past Golden Guards too. We can only hope!

[@MrWanton16]

Out of the ones listed while I think most would argue that Zuko's is by far the most indepth I do think Sasha's is handled pretty well for the most part. I do think there's a point right after the S2 finale where we move a tad too quickly between her selfish behavior and wanting to make things right, she wouldn't have done anything if Andrias hadn't turned out to be a bigger monster, but S3 does slow things back down showcasing it's very much still a work in progress. With Hunter and TOH I just find it pretty hard to critique just cause soo many of its issues are a result of executive meddling in S1 and the 2nd half of S2 having to be fast-forwarded so much. I think the show still turned out pretty great even if they couldn't give as much detail as they would have liked. As for She-ra... Catra's all over the place. It's realistic esp in how victims can inherit their abuser's bad traits and go self-destructive but not sure if that warranted so much of Adora bending over backwards for her.

[@lofkii]

I didn't realize how many characters had undergone a redemption arc in The Owl House lol +I'm really sad that TOH got cut short, the points you made would've definitely been resolved if Disney gave it a chance to tell it's story

[@bethanyhill8088]

In defense of Owl House, they ideally wanted 4 seasons had it cut drastically in the middle of season 2. So if given time to shine, hunter would be up ther3 with Zuko

[@jessicamalca]

The letter Leif wrote to Andrias tells me that they were more than just friends I think they loved each other Andrias blushes and looked away during Leifs dance, the secret messages to each other, Andrias the frist to rush to Leif after she fell to her hands and knees after the vission, the worried look on his face, Leif crying into Andrias, Andrias the one that took her betrayl the hardest and his blushing tears in his eyes and scraming her name when she left, and Leif dubbing her self as "your Leif" and her calling him my derest Andrias and saying I wish my love will reach you. Also in the painting Andrias and Leif are looking at eachother and there is a art that Matt Braly did Andrias Berral and Leif are back together and they are on his sholders and Andrias and Leif are looking at eachother. There was and still is something more than just friendship between Andrias and Leif.

[@missconstruct6968]

So because he liked her that way that makes the reveal any less stupid??? "I'm sad and she left 😭😔"

[@killerbean6254]

I actually don’t think Lilith’s redemption was bad, mainly due to the fact that she was never really evil. Her entire motivation for capturing eda was so belos could “cure” her while also giving her every opportunity to join willingly.

[@meganmarchionda1165]

Redemption Arcs are my favorite kind of arcs because of Prince Zuko but I am also very critcal of them. Personally I would have switched Lilith and Scorpia's rankings. I'm not high on how Lilith's was handled but I like her post redemption. What really lowers for me is why she cursed her sister and her guilt wasnt really made clear at least to me. For Scorpia I saw her as a good person born into a bad place. It isn't until she leaves, that she sees what true kindness is. (Though I haven't seen much of She Ra since it ended but I mostly enjoyed it)

[@caiobecker6989]

Steven universe, for me, had a paradoxal problem (related to cartoon network): It had to much and very few episodes "To much": when cartoon network had a good contract, it was too slow to show the show "Very few": after the wedding episode, cartoon decides to break the contract and the last episodes was made in a hurry Peridot had a great redemption arc Pink diamond had a good history (and she literally had one "reverse arc", because everything knlowledge about her is in backwards) Spinnel had a great history with a awful conclusion Everything about serie finale and SU Future is to hurry, both could had more episodes to make better (and more focus in SU Future could be great, they try to much in a very very few episodes, ended bad)

[@rmsgrey]

One thing that stands out about Catra's redemption for me is that it's not happening in isolation (except in the most literal way - Corridors is an episode all about isolation forcing Catra to face herself and her making some tough choices based on what she sees) - by the time Catra saves Glimmer, the BFS (Best Friend Squad) has already accepted the redemption of former villains: Adora, Entrapta, Scorpia, Shadow Weaver (conditionally), and the entire rest of the Horde except for Hordak and Catra. And it's only the BFS that immediately accepts Catra - Adora, Glimmer and Bow - Adora has never stopped wanting Catra to join her on the side of right, Glimmer just spent an intense period seeing Catra change (and watched her attempt to sacrifice herself to save Glimmer), and Bow is a huge optimist who struggles to be mean to anyone. You can argue that the BFS is too trusting, but they're in no way inconsistent about it.

[@isme1287]

Just a note, the diamonds never go through a redemption arc. Nobody forgives them and nobody wants them there, but they are needed then the characters disreguard and actively try to AVOID them.

[@SlamDunkPyro]

Yeah the fact people still don’t get this baffles me lol

[@tigersinlondon2152]

THANK YOU im so glad some other folks get this!!

[@ImYourCherryBomb]

Very good point. The diamonds are bettering themselves but they aren’t forgiven, which I think is important to show.

[@a_confused_spoon]

I'm pretty sure there has to be something marvelous about Catra's redemption if so many people enjoyed it, and maybe I just can't connect to it... I agree with everything you say in this video :) My personal issue with Catra's redemption is that She-Ra, as a whole, put so much emphasis and focus on the topic of toxic relationships to then go "forgive and forget" in the last season (or at least that's what it felt like to me). Like, not only it's bizarre, it feels like it comes at the expanse of the other characters' arcs, ESPECIALLY Adora's. And not only no one bats an eye, but no one mentions the portal, Angella, Mermista (who lost her kingdom to the Horde in s4) and Scorpia are, would you look at that, chipped when the squad is back on Etheria, like... It's OVERWHELMINGLY convenient imo. Idk😅

[@in_dyy]

I 100% get where you're coming from, but personally I don't think Adora 'forgot' about all the toxicity that Catra had put her through. By the end of s3, the way She-Ra/Adora glares at Catra by the portal suggests that she isn't going to put up with her bs anymore, and so Catra would have to earn this back later on. But this leads Catra to spiral further into a very nearly irredeemable character in s4 before she loses everything. Plus in the final season they arent 100% okay with each other, with several occasions where they argue due to Shadow Weaver's manipulation of them both. So I guess what they were trying to do was focus more on the parental abuse both Adora and Catra suffered from which made them both feel inadequate on two opposite sides of the spectrum (Adora felt inadequate so she had to be good and sacrefice herself for others while Catra felt inadequate so being more and more evil was her only chance of gaining attention) so when both of them confronted SW and Shadow Weaver went down the easy route of dying instead of repairing the problems she made it marked as a new start for Adora and Catra to start their relationship in a fresh, healthier way. But also I totally agree it was WAY too convenient for the plot to have Scorpia and Mermista chipped and I would've really liked to see either of them tear Catra apart for the damage she caused both of them (but especially Mermista)

[@a_confused_spoon]

@@in_dyy yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, my criticism is strictly about s5 alone, everything from s1 to 4 is pretty great. With that glare one would assume there would be at least an on screen conversation about that event, but nope...

[@hollowwoods7130]

​@@a_confused_spoon The reason everyone liked Catra's redemption was bc "aw sexy cat blorbo finally got her gf"

[@IceFireofVoid]

Catra is a very honest portrayal of a victim of chronic childhood abuse developing toxic behaviors as a survival mechanism from her trauma and thinking her only chance at self worth is by gaining the approval of her abuser. Her toxic harmful actions towards others are a direct result of the toxicity she herself sustained. She is polarizing because she is both a victim and an abuser, which is actually something that happens often in victims of child abuse who need therapy to unlearn the toxicity and heal. I agree the other characters reacting to her is convenient and badly written but I view Catra's arc itself as an important depiction of breaking the cycle of abuse and being allowed to heal as someone who has a trauma based disorder and mental health issues. She is allowed to heal even if she has done bad things along the way. She is not broken beyond repair.

[@a_confused_spoon]

@@IceFireofVoid oh absolutely! I never thought she was broken beyond repair at all, I always wanted her to be redeemed and I'm happy for her. Absolutely agree on how important of a portrayal she is. My complaints are as someone who, personally, related to Adora/ Scorpia (and partly Glimmer); I was really hurt to see what kind of "treatment" the writers gave the other characters, feeling a sense of "that's not how this works", especially because it felt like they did it to PURPOSELY avoid the themes of accountability and rebuilding burnt bridges (cause the way it went it looked like they were never burnt, unlike s4, where it was very clear both Catra and Adora were basically done with one another, safe for... 1 interaction I think? There's also a bigger matter of consistency in the portrayal/display of those arcs, but those are nitpicks of mine so I digress). The redemption could have still happened even with more hostility being met. Indeed, it would have been less wholesome and more bittersweet, but regardless, it could have still happened and it could have been beautiful just as much. Catra isn't the only relatable character in the show and mine is a little *I wish* that the other (just as important) characters weren't "damaged", in a way. And I'm very happy that the people who DO relate to Catra get to see s5 and feel a sense of hope, or optimism or whatever else they need, it's a wonderful thing. Probably the biggest positive of her story as a whole :) But when it comes to writing, to me, a character in whatever story of fiction exists within a world affacted by their decisions just as much as the other characters are: I can give credit to a character to choose a certain path and being investigated in it, but if it doesn't respect the weight of where that character walked before nor every other path taken by every other character, it's just gonna be deeply dissatisfying.

[@SlamDunkPyro]

The owl house is a weird case because obviously the show getting cut is a reason hunter’s arc went weird, but at the same time the writers’ solution to that was to give Boscha and kiwimoka more screen time because reasons so not sure why they did that

[@Dbzmaster159]

Okay, I don't think anyone has yet to make a redemption arc as deep and as complicatedly *HUMAN* as Zuko's. As for Hunter you can kind of get it. Same with Andrias and Collector.

[@indecisive2insomniac610]

I always took Hordak' "redemption arc" as the vibes of the villain in the first movie helping the heroes in the second, only to disappear before they can be captured at the end of the movie. But there is the lingering feeling that even if they didn't join the heros, they still changed.

[@Nova-gh5yr]

I know the diamonds have a pretty...yikes redemption arc, but I think Peridot as a pretty well done arc. If only they used her more afterwards

[@rosesanchez1252]

I think one thing to consider is that many of these shows faced conflict from the producers and companies that the writers had to roll with. They are placed in a position where they had to make compromises, give into pressure or fight for what they believed in just to get the shows made. In many cases they had last time to tell the stories they originally intended and also had to deal with the added stress of fighting higher ups which can affect creative choices as well. This is well Documented for The Owl House, and Steven Universe. I believe Amphibia and She-Ra also did but I have trouble finding the sources that I originally saw for them. This is also true for Avatars sequel series Legend of Korra which also has its own issues in pacing and character arcs. I think their is merit to both looking at what we got as a whole and judging it on that(its sort of what a lot of people have to do), but their is also merit in bringing the secondary text when analyzing *why* these stories might have been less satisfying.

[@elae4051]

I go back and forth on what I think Hunter’s arc was missing and it’s not that the cut season 3 had much to do with it…well, it did, but to me, it felt like he should’ve been in the cast from the start (probably could’ve put him as early as Covention), since he’s in much less of the show than one might think, and someone ran the numbers and he’s actually only in nine episodes of Season 2, which adding the three specials, adds up to 12, so he’s in less than half of the show. His arc still works, but imagine if Zuko only showed up in Book 2, only for half the length of the season, and then joined at the end. That’s kind of what it feels like.

[@ugxsan]

Yeah, actually it's super weird that Catra gets a redemption practically for free considering building trust and relationships seemed to be a major theme of the show from what little of it I watched. (Like 2 seasons, I think?) Like maybe you could argue the heroes were secretly hoping for Catra to turn this whole time but even that wouldn't explain just being immediately accepted into the fold like she hadn't just been waging war on them for years.

[@shirabe64]

I think you did a good job at pointing it all out. For me, when a character learns what they are doing is wrong and is tested on what they will do when the moment comes makes a difference compared to a character who KNOWS already what is good, that all they have to do is anything other that what they are doing, but they don’t yield until suddenly it affects them. Zuko saw what his father’s plans would kill thousands, it doesn’t just affect him, and he always wanted to care for people as a prince. The Collector learns that he can’t fix everything, it affects others he took for granted, he didn’t want to hurt anyone. I’ve not watched She-Ra, but everyone describes loving Catra while saying same thing about her redemption. A good redemption struggle I think needs the realization that you may not be accepted or forgiven for what you did, you may never have what you wanted again, but you choose to do good anyway. Sometimes even though it happens too quickly, you can see the moment it happens.

[@floffy2695]

Catra's redemption arc was so poorly done. Her villainous arc got so much attention and was full of complex, tragic motivations and it was so well-written, it was both gut-wrenching to watch her while also making her evil and hateful. They decided to do the exact opposite for her redemption and we got a cheesy, cheap 'good guy' montage for like a few episodes that was a shame to her character. Her redemption was nowhere near satisfactory given the immense damage and abuse she had done in the earlier seasons. And the fact that the show just brushed it off aside to give us the happy ending with her victim (Adora) made me really disappointed in She-Ra.

[@cosmiquealiene6168]

I'm really glad that a lot of people have the same issues with the show that I do!

[@tomnorton4277]

She Ra could have been one of the best animation shows if they hadn't botched Season 5. Up until the very end of Launch, the show was doing extremely well but it went downhill from the split second Glimmer changed her mind about telling Catra to piss off. After that, Entrapta, Shadow Weaver and Horde Prime managed to carry the show to the finish line but it was collapsing around them in order to prop up that demented cat. Even my man Hordak wasn't given the high quality writing that he deserved, although this was actually because of Wrong Hordak, not Catra. Granted, Hordak was given the best scene in the finale - Shadow Weaver's death would have been the best if she was saving Glimmer instead of Catra - but the buildup wasn't enough.

[@cosmiquealiene6168]

@@tomnorton4277 You hit the nail on the head there!

[@justxander1656]

Gideon redemption is honestly really good it was just rushed i find it also interesting that he didn't even brag to her about what he done to save dipper and before the bill stuff you could argue that he was just drunk with power since he was literally a child star that got spoiled and he had a magic amulet that let him do nearly anything he wanted

[@goosie8207]

Catra’s acceptance feels a little quick, it did feel like the others accepted her because of the energy cat (not sure what it’s called). On the second watch through her story feels more tragic. She’s doing what she thought she was supposed to do and to be because of how she was raised. The sadness she feels when Adora leaves and how much it pushes her into the evil role felt real and tragic. I would of liked a little more reluctance from the others until she proved herself. It felt like because Adora trusted her the others did, not seeing how compromised Adora was because of her love for Catra and her hope for redemption. I still loved it though 😊.

[@Crazychik96]

I will say this, for Hunter's redemtion arc there wasn't much they could do within the time the team writing the show could do after finding out about the cut off. I feel like they wanted to do more about hunter's arc, more about the adventures in the human realm with the others, more backstory between philip and his brother (possible flashbacks about them), a more fleshed out story in general....though considering that they only had three episodes that span a couple hours in total, they had to do what they could in those three episodes. The same could be said about the collector.

[@drawingoddessy]

Exactly! That’s what I was thinking. The writers can’t control what happened and in my opinion they did a excellent job with what they were given

[@Crazychik96]

@@drawingoddessy Story wise, yes they could control what we got to see. What they couldn't was the fact that what we saw was just surface level of what they actually would have wanted to show us for that season. The "Season that could have been" would have been deeper than the snapshots of what went on. I think they could have done different with episode 2 of the finale, seeing as in my opinion....and those of some others that I have seen...it stood out as an outlier compared to the first and third episodes. It felt...off, like it could have been an episode had they been given a full season to work with and it wouldn't feel out of place then....but that plot for the second episode just didn't feel like it fit as smoothly.

[@drawingoddessy]

@@Crazychik96 I completely agree

[@manolgeorgiev9664]

Catra and Andrias were so enjoyable as villains *because* of how they acted as villains. I believe Amphibia nailed the redemption though, while She-ra didn't. Andrias' story was sorta open-ended with him becoming a hermit restoring the land that he had destroyed. The residents of Amphibia seem to have just let him be, whether forgiven or not. With that kind of villains I think this is probably the best "redemption" they should get. I agree with you that his tonal shift as a character felt unnatural, but I don't think that's a problem considering that his "redemption" was handled very well. It's not crazy to consider that an evil person could decide that they want to change at some point despite them being passionately evil. Likewise with Catra the main problem is that the others' tolerance toward her was unreasonable, considering her villainy. And her "I love you" redemption was like a slap in the face, as if everything is forgiven if you "loved" the person you tormented for months. If forgiveness is to be given, the person who wishes it needs to earn it and that can be done by performing tremendous acts of good to metigate their tremendous acts of evil. Catra wasn't even close to that. She did one decent thing in her life and it's instantly "all is forgiven". Not to mention that her unstable mental state can only be treated with decades of therapy and may be pills. Anyway, I find fascinating the question of whether and how a tremendously evil person could redeem themself if they saught to change. Though this is a route that one can easyly fumble, I think it's worth exploring and tackling in entertainment media.

[@toadlord8594]

I’m also a fan of your Tier list, especially since you have a video of Sasha being your favorite. Yes cause to me Sasha was and will always be my favorite Calamity Girl and in my eyes one of the most memeroable Disney characters Matt Braly made, I'm always been more addicted to rude/antagonistic characters developing into better people and the journey they go through. And yes while it could be better (I.e more screen time) something that I will Never forgive Amphibia Season 3A for not giving us, same for Marcy I still enjoyed the moments she was onscreen. And honestly Sasha and Grime were mostly the reason I wanted to finish Amphibia to the end, same with Andrias and Marcy.

[@rockfan243]

I think if the ow house didn't have their 3 season gutted they might have had more time for hunter to confront the whole backstop issue

[@robxholicfoxyfan8552]

Diamonds weren't redeemed. They barely follow Steven's rules because of nepotism. Steven hates them. The only reason besides not liking killing that justifies the Diamonds existing is that Steven is the only one in their ballpark and it's still 3 against one, and there isn't a prison - gem or human made - that can trap them, either. Steven really only could make White realize she needs to actually come out of her literal head to fix anything they did at all, and help guide them to not kill everyone. It isn't a redemption and it isn't something Steven would have wanted to let slide this much if he really had a choice. Plus they are necessary additional sources of healing mineral water the rest of other gems they had already broken or corrupted can use to recover. The Diamonds as a concept backs the show into a corner, but it also seems to be that they know conquest through words only or at least minimal contact or attachment. Blue is surprised Greg has feelings of grief, none of the Diamonds or homeworld gems knew of the corruption, gems are taught to be objective and not have empathy even if they do know their missions because each has personality that isn't fitting towards being a perfect cog. Even if the Diamonds are to blame, Gems are technology, so to make the Diamonds must have had one big purpose. If it was as White thought she was doing, or if White and the other Diamonds rebelled against their makers (or White did before making the other three), who knows.

[@ismeza76]

we might have gotten more of that, i think it was mentioned that the original future plot was going to be exploring more Gem/diamond history but they changed their minds

[@delurces.delgado4352]

This is just fallicius. They could've kill them, because they were trying to kill the main characters (Bismuth armor cof). But the message of Forgiveness and No Violence as a theme of the show made basically a bunch of spacy fascists being free of any kind of consequence because of a extreme way to approach a simple message.

[@robxholicfoxyfan8552]

@@delurces.delgado4352 The Diamonds weren't even trying that much while fighting the Crystal Gems back at Garnet's wedding based on their thoughts after Yellow knocked Steven out. White had Pearl, Garnet, Amethyst, and the other two Diamonds possessed and only lost due to Pink Steven's lack of suppression. The only way to get a Diamond shattered properly when they are on guard is through direct damage to their gems or poofing. Both are extremely difficult just based on how powerful, fast, and sturdy they are compared to other gems. They may be brittle, but again, their weak points are substantially difficult to reach. And any time that Steven can surpass them is through his fight or flight response, which isn't easy to actually harness due to not being in the right mind. Yes Steven could shatter one but it again is three Diamonds against one, and any non diamond is very weak to the Monarch's abilities. Yellow can poof any gem, Blue's manipulation of emotions is crippling in combat to everyone besides Lapis or any gem forced to endure similarly severe trauma, and White can control any gem. Steven's abilities relating to memories and organic life haven't really been used to their full potential, even with how experienced he is with most of his defensive abilities. Even if someone would eventually beat the Diamonds, most allies would shatter regardless. It would be a powdery massacre.

[@delurces.delgado4352]

@@robxholicfoxyfan8552 the power of friendship would work. So many stories with overpowered villains being defeated with strategy or power ups. Believe me, Rebeca didn't even think about all this stuff u mentioned, she just wanted to make the "uwu violence is never the solution" bullshit.

[@robxholicfoxyfan8552]

@@delurces.delgado4352 She did think about at least that Steven would still hate their guts though, and has intense trauma. I'm obviously not happy about the Diamonds either, I'm just rationalizing what wasn't rationalized with what scattered and likely unlinked and random information we do have. The most I can say is Steven is at least justified in not wanting anything to do with them, even if he basically can't get rid of them now that he (Rebecca) forced that responsibility unto himself. I do agree that it would have ended way more soundly if even just White died. Blue and Yellow obviously don't deserve anything either, but at least White was the source of all the ideology and conquest, besides whoever made her since they are technically synthetic machines based on minerals. Blue and Yellow at least would be realistically able to change even if it was vastly nepotism. White just didn't even seem remotely redeemable and the fact she flipped immediately from a clapback instead of nepotism like the other two really makes it worse. I get the excuse was that White was never even once outside of her own head (literally and metaphorically), but how wasn't the conquest garbage solved centuries ago if she was so easy to convince? Pink could have done it way faster if she actually tried, considering her shield would have likely blocked White's powers. I feel this is becoming a rant but I guess it's fun to rant about things you kind of like or kind of hate, or both. I personally found most of Steven Universe fine aside from the Diamond's pass. Almost every other character was clearly subject to propaganda so it makes sense to have them realize their mistakes. The Diamonds, aside from Pink, at the very least knew they were killing, even if Blue and Yellow weren't fully aware that other life was equal in all the qualities they prided themselves to have. Probably due to the connection of emotions or logic being what could have swayed them into a different path. Pink I think was one hundred percent kept in the dark for the reason of adoring what she was built to destroy, for she had love and passion, even if she wasn't super empathic nor organized. I think even with the Diamonds being a eyesore to have in the story, Future did provide context and proof that Pink did benefit and the other Diamonds would have benefitted from not purging worlds or pressuring themselves for perfection. Pink went from a being of destruction of Gem and organic life and rage tantrums, to a healer and protector of any life she could (even if early on she definitely had a ton of issues and mistakes she didn't know how to cope with), and creator of life. Blue went from emotional infliction to emotional support. Yellow went from destabilizing and conquering to piecing together shattered gems and restoring their form and even undoing the fusions, as well as changing a gem's body at will. And White went from issuing control unto others and draining them of will, to allowing others to channel their will into her. Wouldn't want them around, but it does actually show that White's decree of conquest didn't ever let gemkind live to their own potential, not even herself, but also that it is very strange to have the additional powers to begin with if they were made only for destruction and replacement. I'm just rambling at this point, but honestly happy to spill my thoughts everywhere.

[@DawaraDragon]

You should talk about cartoon character sacrifices and what makes them good or bad. (Sasha, Marcy, Anne, Luz, etc.)

[@DLxxx]

Yeessss!! That’s a topic that doesn't get discussed nearly enough!

[@_______-3007]

Marcy and Sasha’s weren’t sacrifices tho, Sasha was going to kill herself and Marcy got killed, also, Anne’s is much better than Luz’s

[@DawaraDragon]

I feel like Sasha letting herself fall to save Anne was a sacrifice, but I agree that Marcy’s wasn’t.

[@sarafontanini7051]

the big rules of "does it make sense for this character to have a redemption arc", according to me: -does it make sense for the character to do so in the first place? -is their personality consistent between their time as an antagonist and their potential time as a protagonsit? if it isn't, then why bother with the change when you may as well jsut make a new character? -do their attempts to do good outweigh their crimes, or are their crimes too horrendous to actually forgive realistically speaking? -does it makes sense for the characters to forgive them? or to even give them that chance? let alone IMMEIDaTELY forgiving them and forgetting what they did? -Are they even actually reprentent? Do they ever even say "sorry" for what they've done? -would they actually be more interesting/fun as a protagonist than as an antagonist? if you can't answer these questions decently, maybe rethink the redemption arc you're proposing.

[@thathandsometryhard8605]

SO glad I'm not the only one who wanted to see more of the golden guard version of Hunter. He was so entertaining

[@AppleCinderr]

I was quite disappointed when Caleb and Hunter’s backstories weren’t explored because they were my favorite part of The Owl House’s story, but that wasn’t the show’s fault at all because Disney decided to cancel it for no reason. Hopefully they will be able to explore the whole story line through comics and such, kind of like Gravity Falls’ comics. Although I really enjoyed Amphibia, I totally agree that Andrius’ villian twist and redemption weren’t the best. For example, as soon as he was introduced I immediately knew he was going to be a twist villian, and was praying that he wasn’t going to be, and his backstory, although really good, didn’t really explain his abruptly cold attitude afterwards, and his redemption felt super rushed, having shown virtually no remorse. I’m glad that at the end it was shown that he wasn’t forgiven and is given a bittersweet ending. And lastly this video makes me want to rewatch Avatar after being reminded of how good Zuko’s arc was!

[@Apfeljunge666]

The thing is, and this should have been communicated better by the writers. The friendship squad was quick to forgive Catra not because she deserved it, but because they were tired of the fighting and just glad to put that conflict behind them. If they tried to roast Catra, what would be gained for them? more conflict, her running off or doing something bad again? Who wants that when you could spend that time to heal and fight the big bad. furthermore, Glimmer and Adora were the ones most harmed by Catra directly, and both had pretty good personal reasons to give her another shot. Adora because Catra was her friend for so long and she just wanted that back, and Glimmer because she actually saw Catra change and sacrifice for her personally.

[@wafagdplqs4421]

I agree with your tier-list.

[@og_dumpster_fire4482]

I personally think Catra acted the way that she did compared to Adora because they were both abused in different ways by Shadow Weaver. While Adora was molded into the perfect child soldier, Catra was used as an incentive to perfect Adora. She was punished in place of Adora which made Catra have a major inferiority complex and caused her to grip so tightly to the Horde compared to Adora. She always wanted to prove herself as something worthy. Adora left because she had a sheltered upbringing, much more coddled compared to Catra, and had no idea what the Horde was doing (she saw everything as good) while Catra knew of the bad from the beginning. Her sudden change was because everything was black and white for her and Catra was conditioned from a small age to see everything as Grey, she chose her path way earlier. I understand your side of the argument; however. I completely understand how much the reactions of the other characters completely ruin any chance of a realistic character arc and redemption.

[@trixxart777]

Honestly a thing that I hate that no one mentions how catra never properly tried to apologise to Scorpia when she has been just as if not more abusive towards her as Adora. Wich honestly this treatment towards catra is a big reason I hated Catra because she was soo needlessly awful to her and there supposed to be on the same side. Honestly in term of character Scorpia is a lot more similar to Zuko than anything as she never was really a villain but was more obsessed with getting Catra's affection and then by the end of the series decided to leve the horn because she wasn't putting up with her abuse any more. But it's clear that the show didn't care much about her wich is why I find it hard to rewatch it really rubs under my skin the way she is treated. I especially think that Scorpia should have taken longer to forgive Catra and it would have given a scene were Catra has to think more about what she has done to her same to a lesser extent Entrapta because she was awful to her too.

[@spencersawesomevideos7022]

Sasha’s redemption arc in Amphibia was just beautiful!

[@Saltedroastedcaramel]

Bout time people are shitting on Catra's "redemption"

[@cartoonking1789]

I like to think better shows are helping people realize how poorly it and the show in general was handled.

[@Saltedroastedcaramel]

@@cartoonking1789 It shouldn't take a better show to realize that, but I digress

[@cartoonking1789]

@@Saltedroastedcaramel agreed but the fact that people aren’t treating this show as groundbreaking and that ship and “great reputation” as much as they did before gives me a little bit of Hope for the future of entertainment.

[@Saltedroastedcaramel]

@@cartoonking1789 Boy I wished She Ra had the High Guardian Spice treatment. If Catra had the same personality as Sage, I bet no one would have liked her.

[@cartoonking1789]

@@Saltedroastedcaramel I think Stevenson’s show had more of a story structure (even if it was bare bones and flimsy because it focuses more on a poorly done enemies to lovers ship) than HGS so it was able to draw more people in.

[@elizabethk007]

My personal favorite villain redemption from a kid's show is Impmon from Digimon Tamers. As a villain, he murders a digimon in front of its own human child (a girl named Jeri) which traumatizes that kid for the rest of the season. And when he comes to regret his actions and decides to become good...and the heroes reject him. And he doesn't expect them to forgive him anyway. All he cares about is saving Jeri, the girl he hurt. The scene where he tries to get her to take his hand to escape and Jeri refuses him despite all the tortue she's currently going through? Heartwrenching. The idea of someone trying to be a good guy, being rejected by their peers, ultimately failing to do their "one good deed" of redemption but still continuing to try to be a better person? THAT's something that sticks with you.

[@vectory674]

After I finished She-Ra I was a little apathetic. It was fine but it seems rushed for some relationship but fine I guess. Then I started thinking about Catra's "redemption" and it hits me : She wasn't redeemed. She acted like she was told, it didn't work. She kept persisting on it until she destroyed everything and every relationship she had (Adora first, Scorpia and Entrapta after). She is a sociopath during a long time and it gets worse since to me Adora looks more like a trophy, dare I say a "coping living medicine". She doesn't look like she can do anything without the only person who never seemed to care for her about herself. Adora is the only one who did and was genuine. So she wants her back that badly but doesn't understand why Adora refused at first. Her view is twisted and that could be an argument, but to a point when you want to psychologically break her best friend and the person she wants back with her ? This is a bit much After that because another menace surged and Adora needs to fight it, she didn't stood in her way and the series wants you to think that she wants to reverse the damage she has done, but that not really the case at the end. That's sad really because it has a bitter taste when I think about Catra due to the fact that we just needed a little to correct that flaw to me

[@beegee80]

Hard agree that Zuko's redemption arc is the best redemption arc. It was incredible.

[@wafagdplqs4421]

I think the Collector's and especially Hunter's backstory could/would have been expanded on if the season three wasn't cancelled. And to be fair, Dana and the team behind The Owl House did great with the three episodes we got ! Catra's character was one of my favorite in the show, yet her redemption was very flawed, unfortunately. Like you said, mainly because of the other's reaction.

[@daboom75]

The Owl House for me was obviously going to have multiple different arcs it wanted to continue and wrap up, but was dealing with a 3 episode run time to wrap up everything so I give it some leeway for not being able to dedicate as much to Hunter, everyone had a bit of their story cut off. Meanwhile with king Andrias, he seemed like someone who solidified his villainess position due to first growing up in that imperial society with these expectations already set up for him, and then later on manipulation and self-loathing like you said, but I think it's good to note too that him caring deeply for his friends and being entirely fine with being a genocidal world conqueror aren't mutually exclusive. It isn't realizing that attacking the earth is bad that makes him stop, it's that he realizes his old friend betrayed the kingdom, but not him, and actively wished that they could have still been friends, hoping that he still kept his heart open. He first turns against the core properly when he gives up because the core has Marcy, and that's the one person he still truly considered a friend that he didn't want to hurt. He remains...pretty selfish throughout the whole show because of this, and it's kind of great! He's a bad person! Even before the betrayal he's kind of a bad person cause he's down for the destruction of earth and humanity! That never really goes away or changes. Or it might be me reading his nervousness as simply being nervous of his first time ruling, one can make the case it was about him needing to be in charge of this operation. Really great villain who's character stays consistent the whole way through but is still able to do good in the end. (And I mean really, the time when he actively helps is also a situation where he more or less dies if he doesn't, not the absolute hardest choice too when if the core wasn't losing it would have happily killed him along with everyone else). Marcy saying bye in the end was touching and was on theme with what he was searching for in the end, and probably the best he could ask for. It wasn't a redemption. I don't even think Andrias would have cared about if he was seemed as redeemed. He just didn't want to be forgotten by the people he cared about. Marcy leaving without saying anything would have hurt, while acting like they're the same old friends would have felt wrong with everything that happened, but they both know what it's like the hurt the people they love. There isn't time to try to repair their relationship. Marcy still takes the time though to say goodbye, because just like him, she remembers all the good times they've had together. Lovely video over all! If you want the tldr of the diamonds: This is a children's show that is trying to teach kids that the adults in their lives aren't irredeemable monsters and can become better people. A lot of people took/take issue with that but it's simply the message it's trying to teach, take that as you will.

[@WorldWeave]

While I’ll give you the point on the character’s reactions to Catra…I’d argue that that didn’t spell out why she is the way she is because…they didn’t really NEED to…we’ve seen Shadow Weaver threaten to murder her as a child TO HER FACE, and it’s pretty clear that she’d never be seen as good enough by Shadow Weaver, yet despite that, she’s content with the only life she’s ever known, and as long as nothing changes, she’s fine…so when things DO change, she lashes out (admittedly this is more character analysis so I should probably stop talking, but you get what I’m trying to say, right?)

[@joshuagonzalez4183]

I agreed

[@mishaquimbly2576]

Late to this video but it was definitely a fun watch. Personally I think comparing Catra to the Diamonds is far more accurate to how they undergo a "redemption" arc per se. In both cases, the characters relationship to the protagonist is largely what spurs their actions and defines their evil to the audience. Catra is so obsessively focused on Adora and broken emotionally that she quite litteraly would rather let the world burn if she cant have her, and Adora responds to this by forcing her to open up and embrace new friends to "redeem" her by curing her obsession. In a similar vein, Steven's relationship with the diamonds follows another line of obsession and callousness towards imperfection and chaos. Steven himself is the manifestation of an imperfection created by his mother to which they go so far as to deny his very existence by calling him by his mother's name. His relationship with the diamonds and how he repairs it is how they show to the audience the redemption. In both cases however the actions and past of the individuals never truly gets wiped clean, its left murky and cracked but in a way far more realistic and relatable to real life. Horrible people can find redemption but not in a Disney style perfect ending where everyone forgives them and all the damage can be reversed, but also better than the Disney alternative where a character with bloodied hands can only find redemption through a final self-sacrifice to end their story with a good reputation but no repercussions because the person is no longer here. I think Catra and the diamonds themselves would be perfect examples of imperfect redemptions, where they earn forgiveness from the protagonist who uses their authority to selfishly wipe away their sin.

[@ryanmatthews2068]

Catra probably is untreated bipolar while also being an abuse victim who's "mother" only taught her how to hurt others. She went to what was comfortable, being evil. It literally takes multiple breakdowns and more trauma to finally see she was wrong. Does it fully forgive her? No. But it helps with trying to understand her.

[@dunno7844]

This really helps with my own story, thanks

[@thebigidea9659]

Catra was just straight up abusive towards Adora, even when they were kids she lashed out at her. She was evil, twisted and obsessive. Not to mention that Glimmer's mom is basically "dead" because of Catra. She was undeniably the show writers favorite as she seems to outshine the show's main character.its honestly quite unnerving that Catra was rewarded with Adora despite the terrible treatment and obvious obsession she had with her. Its creepy and sends a bad message to younger viewers. What's worse is that she didnt really seem interested in redemption, she couldnt worm her way into Hordak Prime's good graces so she joined up with Adora and her friends. I have no idea why the writers thought it would be okay for Glimmer to lash out at Adora and blame her for what happened to her mother when the actual culprit is treated with hugs and cuddles.

[@conner8319]

Catra was my favorite Shera character, she seemed like a impulsive and emotional character. Her not going with her long time friend to the good side wasn’t as easy to see, but the emotional spiraling at not having that person she had spend so much time with she had seemed to me at least the reason why she kept getting worse. Sometimes focusing in on that bond and twisting it rather than doing any number of things that might prove better for the horde agenda. Like with the party at the snow princesses place. She could have swooped in after it started in a surprise attack on the princessless places and gained so much ground

[@jacksparrowismydaddy]

I blame Disney for not being able to flesh out Hunter's redemption

[@RedEveTillDawn]

You should watch Kipo and the age of wonderbeasts. It’s got a unique-ish redemption arc

[@TailsFan]

You made a lot of references to Gideon, but never talked about how, after fighting and winning against Dipper and being about to hand him over to Bill, Gideon actually listens to what Dipper is saying to him and, even knowing that Bill would severely punish him for turning against him, handed over the key he was keeping for Bill and then led his road warriors into battle against the incoming eyebats so Dipper would have time to get to Mabel's bubble and save her while Bill was distracted. I really think you could've gone into that moment of redemption better. He wasn't beaten down and begging for mercy, he was winning and CHOSE to turn against Bill, and that takes a lot of strength. He was then tortured and, even when they were all together, Mabel was still cold to him so he wasn't automatically accepted. But, at the end of it all, he decided to change his ways and be a better person, not because he had been kicked around by someone stronger, but because he realized that this...wasn't right. That he needed to change, if he was ever going to even be Mabel's friend again, much less her boyfriend. If he was ever going to be forgiven by the town for everything he did, he needed to change and prove that he wasn't that person anymore. And so, he rode into battle, a brave ten-year-old road warrior, so that Dipper could move on and save the day.

[@olivabishop6139]

One of the good things I can say about Catra is that she can show someone that even if you've done terrible things, it's never too late to change for the better. Of course, the show didn't do a good job at her arc (for the same reasons said in the video) but I still think it could be a useful character for someone who's in a spiral of self-destruction. You may not be able to fix the relationships you messed up but you can move forward and be a better person

[@roo1014]

*"You may have done terrible things, but it isn't too late to change for the better"* is a good message. Sadly, in Catra's case, it comes across as *"it doesn't matter how many horrid acts you've committed or how much pain you've inflicted, as long as you feel "sorry" you can be forgiven"* which is very much not a good message for anyone.