Case Hardening And Heat Treatment - Making A Toolmakers Mill Vice (Part 2)

Part 1: • Making A Toolmakers Mi...
G'day everyone,
This is the second video in the toolmaker vise build series. In the previous video I machined the vise components from a low carbon steel. The steel is relatively soft and is easily scratched and marred. Toolmaker vices are usually hardened to 57-58 HRC to prevent wear. Unfortunately low carbon steel can not be hardened by heating and quenching because it lacks the carbon content required for heat treatment. The solution is to add carbon to the steel. The process I will be doing today will be the case hardening process using the pack hardening method. The outer surface is carburized in the forge to make a hard, high carbon case. I hope you enjoy the video.
Timestamps
0:00 - Intro & Issue With Hardening Low Carbon Steel
1:20 - Preparing Charcoal Power For hardening (Carbon Source)
2:28 - Making The Packing Boxes
4:42 - Packing The Parts For Case Hardening
6:07 - First Attempt And Problems
7:01 - Case Hardening The Steel
9:44 - Emptying The Packing Boxes
10:41 - Case Hardened Parts
11:05 - Quenching & Hardening The Steel
13:05 - Hardened Parts & Removing Scale With Vinegar
14:10 - Testing Parts For Warping
14:44 - Testing Part Hardness
15:45 - Removing Oxide With Electrolysis
#machining #diy #VISEBUILD

[@InheritanceMachining]

I have a growing stack of tools I’ll need to harden eventually so this has been very enlightening. I appreciate your scientific approach and explanations. Good luck with the grinding!

[@hidhshsj123]

good to see you here.

[@glasmou]

I appreciate the will it blend reference at 2:19

[@nickhadfield3192]

Blast from the past right there.

[@artisanmakes]

Is it a cheeky blendtec reference? That is the question.

[@jemt1631]

When quenching you want to move the part in a circular motion to break up the boiling water or oil, otherwise the bubbles that form can keep the water or oil from touching the entire part and cause uneven hardness and also increases warping, at least that's the conventional wisdom.

[@grendelum]

leidenfrost stickin his nose in…

[@HBR.MetalWorks]

Exactly what I was about to say !!

[@autumn5592]

No, up and down, it prevents warpage. Well, maybe on something this size it wouldn't really matter, but up and down does a better job at mitigating warpage.

[@jemt1631]

@@autumn5592 I have no idea what effect different motions have when quenching, i always use a circular motion. I've only heard of knifemakers recomend using a circular motion, for what it's worth.

[@autumn5592]

@@jemt1631 No, knife maker worth anything will tell you to do circular quench, it is the thing that introduces the most warpage. Are you sure you don't mean recommend AGAINST?

[@cullendolan5619]

Only 5 minutes in but this is a super interesting thing to watch and I've never heard of it. Thanks for sharing

[@Mtaalas]

Will it blend, that is the question.... that reference was so much fun :D The good old times of YT!

[@brandontscheschlog]

Love the detail you went into on each step showing what worked and what didnt!

[@charlvanniekerk8009]

Im really starting to enjoy your videos! I admire your constant desire to improve and undertaking a project of this magnitude. Thank you for sharing your process and your result. I cant wait to see it finished and in action!

[@andrew1977au]

Loving this series, can't wait to see it finished

[@markspc1]

Wow Case Hardening, a technical and evolved process. Thank you for the demonstration.

[@TeAwsomeCo]

Just watched both the videos. Class job so far! can't wait to see it finished! Love how you put your learning curves in the video. Wish i could double like the vid for that!

[@EDesigns_FL]

Stainless steel foil is an alternative to making boxes for case hardening.

[@tungsten_carbide]

Yes but from what I've seen the airtightness (is that a word?) leaves _a lot_ to be desired - the first time I saw this used the amount of mill scale at the end was a real disappointment. Honestly looked about the same as if it had been uncovered! And this was just for a basic heat treat, not eight hours soaking at red head. And, given one of the recurring themes of the channel, surely this is also loads more expensive?

[@bobvines00]

Along with making tight hems/seams, don't forget to add some paper into the stainless pouch. The papers burns and uses up the remaining O2 trapped inside the sealed pouch.

[@EDesigns_FL]

@@tungsten_carbide Steel is going to discolor during heat treating, but, if it's properly protected, it shouldn't oxidize. In industrial applications, an inert atmosphere or vacuum is use to prevent oxidation. Stainless foil has become the standard for small operations. Done correctly, it's very effective and inexpensive. To me, the biggest drawback is that foil is razor sharp and needs to be treated with extreme respect. As Bob Vines stated, the seams need to be tightly folded to ensure integrity of the enclosure, and a source of carbon, needs to be included to consume oxygen. In this particular situation, the charcoal used for case hardening will also do a great job consuming remnant oxygen. Foil is not a good choice when there isn't good control over the heat source or where it's subject to physical abuse because it can be damaged.

[@Thorhian]

@@EDesigns_FL Discolor? The discoloring (especially the more "rainbow" effect) are due to thin film oxidation isn't it? Ideally you should extremely little or none.

[@EDesigns_FL]

@@Thorhian Just as it's impossible to create a perfect vacuum, simple combustion is not going to consume all O². Oxygen is extremely reactive and clings to metal surfaces. Combustion is only going to reduce the quantity of O², not completely eliminate it.

[@StripeyType]

Seeing pack casehardening in the home shop is awesome!

[@TigerCarpenter]

excellent. I'm enjoying your combination of a scientific and try-and-error approach, to learn and to confirm or dismiss the theory. I guess I need to build a proper forge, and join the game.

[@theunfrailhale]

Hey man. Been watching / lurking and just wanna say nice work. I am learning a lot from your methods. Thanks for sharing the lessons learned as well.

[@waynethomson3852]

Great job mate. Love how you can get things done with out all the fancy gear others use. Now we need to get you a band saw and a surface grinder!!

[@robyoung1890]

Hell yes!!!

[@bostedtap8399]

Very interesting to see pack hardening, great job.

[@tinker5349]

Thanks for sharing your intersting video, look forward to the next episode.

[@y2ksw1]

Very well done! You are becoming a master of arts.

[@u_watch9497]

holey dang bro, i really liked looking at those gooey liquids on the metal during the various processes. it was so freaking awesome.

[@farimannorozizadeh9811]

Fantastic video

[@TheDistur]

Fun stuff. Good thing you left extra for grinding!

[@maple5793]

Sad to say that your misspelling of Vice (sic) drew me in but I'm glad that I stayed for your content. Well done.

[@ludditetechnologies]

Great informative video as always.

[@davidrule1335]

2:52 holly crap you got a grinder!

[@hedning003]

hahahahha!! i was thinking the same! no more hacksaw

[@an2thea514]

You could see the grinder in 3 previous videos.

[@MattysWorkshop]

Gday, I found this very interesting and I’ve never seen this process before, the hardness turned out great and keen to see the next instalment, Cheers

[@ch5139]

Fantastic project, takes me back to my apprenticeship. I have a set of old files at this very moment de-rusting using electrolysis. The local wildlife we hear in the background sounds very exotic to my UK ears😁

[@artisanmakes]

Just the lovely sounds of an Aussie afternoon

[@daveharriman2756]

Some great tecniques there being used, just amazing how you've produced hardened parts from no carbon steel, hat's off to you mate!

[@tungsten_carbide]

Excellent job on the case hardening! I was really looking forward to this after the first instalment and it didn't disappoint 🙂 (also great to discover that you _can_ get away with using nothing more sophisticated than crushed charcoal, none of the arcane or exotic home-brew mixtures or the now-unobtainable Kasenit.

[@artisanmakes]

Thankyou, I've heard great stuff about kasenit but I've never seen anyone sell it. Shame, id love to compare it to the charcoal

[@james.d.8044]

That was an amazing job 👏 🙌

[@Threadexpress]

Brilliant video thanks! Home brew case hardening! A year ago I went down that rabbit hole also, using the same ingredients and process, but I had an explosion on my first trial that damaged my electric kiln. So I just through harden now using 01 steel...and I don't have to worry about case depth. Cheers Cliff

[@artisanmakes]

Blimey. I'll have to be careful about these explosions. If I could get tool still in thick bar stock I'd definitely use it over using case hardening steel. Cheers

[@sparrow4266]

Love your channel 👍

[@artmckay6704]

Nice work! Thanks for sharing! :)

[@garlandtx10]

Mild steel + case hardening (with bone charcoal) = pretty guns.

[@DudleyToolwright]

Very nice work.

[@joshclark44]

Very interesting process of carbonizing the steel in order to heat treat it. And it keeps with the channel theme of being inexpensive and accessible. Electrolysis definitely seems like a good choice for a part with a lot of surface area like that because it can get into all the crevices and do the entire process all at once. I am curious how you plan to take out the warp in the parts though and get them to fit together and be square and uniform. Can't wait to see your next video!

[@GBWM_CNC]

Pretty interesting topic! thanks for the video!

[@OWSNubbles]

I love hearing the wildlife in the background!

[@jays_metalworks9399]

Angle grinder at last 👍🏻

[@Ilikeit616]

Looks like it will turn out nice ...I made on in the 12th grade 1973 ! retired now and still use it now and then ... I do not remember do so much to harded it

[@bakkendorff]

Love the "Will It Blend" reference

[@robertwalker7457]

Very good thank you.

[@NASA-AU.]

Very interesting to watch, as all your vids seem to be:)

[@qcnck2776]

My only vice is wanting to watch more vise building videos from Artisan Makes😁

[@alexportiiii6414]

thank you!!!

[@bigbob1699]

I found that taped screw holes on the fixed jaw will come in handy as a stop.

[@EasleyDone.]

Now I want fish and chips. 🥰 hard to find in central Texas😐 Great info, thanks.

[@backyardmachinist]

This is sick

[@kemet-son]

what 🤔.. artisan use grinder istead of saw 😃 amazing work man 😍👌🏻

[@14Mew]

Nice blend tec reference

[@rixogtr]

That pointy spatula in rounded edge bowl triggers my ocd hard hey :D

[@sparkiekosten5902]

Bugger, I wish you could have put in a sacrificial part which you could cut open to show us the hardness layer! would have been cool to see. Keep up the good work!

[@UnitSe7en]

Might have been interesting for his own knowledge to know how deep his case is.

[@l-xll-zombie-llx1112]

This is awesome to watch, funny enough I am making this for my milling assessment. One thing i am learning heaps from you is there any way u can label the mill/drill/lathe attachments 😊

[@DolezalPetr]

I love it

[@gary851]

im glad you didn't cut anything by hand!

[@tc5963]

You can also use graphite since its pure carbon and already powder or granules. Usually best for parts like drills or taps that you can use a little at a time by using gypsum as youre "box"

[@otterconnor942]

Sodium hydroxide is good for rust stripping too. It's popular in aerospace for this situation

[@jamjamamam4139]

I recomend to try citric acid, works very well in rust remoing

[@user-tw9io9nz2m]

Awesome project, the way I see it this is a major step up for you in terms of showcasing techniques. I'm curious for next time as to how you plan to grind the surfaces. If I had to give one point of critique to the project up until now it would be this: The way the fixed jaw is mounted can be improved. If the bolts and the key switched places then the jaw would be stiffer. This is because if we look at the key as a pivot point when it's behind, the bolts are in a favourable position to resist jaw tilt. If the bolts are at the back, they are very close to the pivot (short moment arm). This reduces the stiffness and ultimately the strength of the joint. That being said, it will work just fine the way it is. I don't think you'd put excessive force on a vise like this. Just a small pointer in terms of design.

[@4pawsforge273]

I was hoping to see you use a hacksaw to cut the tubing... WHEN DID YOU GET THE ANGLE GRINDER! If you had it for a minute, keep using it! As always absolutely love your content!

[@an2thea514]

He used it on both QCTH for the Mill videos.

[@swampy1584]

I always wondered whar case hardening was. Now I know. Great vid

[@UnitSe7en]

Hardening only the outer region (case). You could have performed a 5-second Google search at any time in your life to find this out. There was absolutely no need to wait until now.

[@swampy1584]

I could have done but wheres the fun in that?

[@artisanmakes]

Cheers. It should be pointed out that this is just one method of case hardening. This method is rarely used nowadays, its been replaced by faster more efficient processes

[@phillipbainbridge9107]

I didn't see any toolmaker's addictions in this video. I did, however see a vise.

[@hirnalskoder783]

I‘ve tested vinegar for derusting too. But I boiled it some minutes in vinegar and it worked pretty good on a old drillbit. But it smelled so horrible in the whole kitchen… I continued using electrolysis. Best wishes

[@dontnubblemebro]

A camp stove and secondhand pot is a great idea for it, if you don't have many neighbours anyway

[@tungsten_carbide]

Just a quick thing on the rusting post-vinegar soak, I know you said you're going to rely on electrolysis in the future and there's no real downside to this but just in case you might need to use an acid bath again at some point in the future (and obviously hoping it's of help to any other readers) that tendency towards future rusting can be _greatly_ lessened, possibly halted entirely, if you give the parts a soapy scrub using common hand soap. The cheaper and harsher the soap the better from the results I've seen, but any bog-standard soap should work nearly as well. I live in a constantly-humid environment, although my temps are mild RH still rarely drops below 80% and frequently is in the 90s and while it's not like the tropics spontaneous rusting of bare steel is most definitely something we need to stay on top of. And after rust removal using salted vinegar or citric acid, thorough scouring/scrubbing to remove the black residue and then the final, thorough, soapy scrub using an old toothbrush and hand drying, leaving any remaining adsorbed water to air dry, I have been able to leave some things nearly permanently 'dry' and they barely flash rust, if at all. I'm sure I have some parts of to-be-completed projects, and definitely some restored files, that have sat for _years_ in drawers or cabinets that didn't even get a spray of WD-40 and they're basically the same. The most added protection some have had is a wrap in one sheet of newsprint and that's it. Hope it's of help to someone.

[@artisanmakes]

Intereting, I just used regular baking soda to neutralise the acid. Impressed at how well your parts have held up. Humidity is very high where I am and rusting is an issue if parts aren't oiled. Cheers

[@762xDevin]

Get a blasting cabinet bro. Gread vid

[@artisanmakes]

Maybe one day when I'm in a larger workshop :)

[@OuroborosArmory]

This is a kiln, or a foundry… not a forge. Mostly it’s in how it’s set up and what you use it for. As this has the opening in the top and burner on the bottom, it’s a foundry (mostly used for melting metal)

[@loveller]

Didn’t know you owned a grinder. Shocked that you did cut the square tube with a hack saw like you have done with all other metal bar.

[@an2thea514]

He's used it in other videos before.

[@bobvines00]

Depending in the amount of galvanized coating that needs to be removed, instead of grinding it away, use vinegar "overnight" to basically eat the zinc off of the steel. I'm pretty sure that another of the ~118 comments already made here (at the time I'm commenting) has already mentioned this, but I thought that I'd mention it "just in case."

[@manoch969]

Langsung di lihat🤠🤩🙏

[@astridvallati4762]

Another method for removing rust and scale: Dilute Muriatic Acid ( Pool Hydrocholric Acid) bath; once metal is Grey, wash in Hot water and Bicarbonate of Soda to neutralize any remaining acid. Dry and Oil. Simpler Method: Solution of One Part Molasses with 5 parts Water; drop parts in and allow to sit for several days to a week ( this works well for Rusty Large machinery, etc). Wash off with Pressure Water jet, dry and oil immediately. The Acid Method I used for a stack of Gunbarrels damaged in 1974 Floods; the Molasses method with a Blacksmith's Pole Drill Press. Both came out Grey Steel.

[@jackdawg4579]

I've found the only way to get vinegar to do the job of removing forge scale is to use an old croc pot set on high with double strength cleaning vinegar, the crock pot keeps it heated to 80 or 90 degrees, then it does a good job in just a few hours.

[@topduk]

Citric acid works better and is just as easy to obtain.

[@gangleweed]

BTW......don't ever use mild steel that has been casehardened for vice jaws as the core is too soft and will deflect and crack under the vice clamping pressure...don't ask me how I know.....a. case hardening tool steel like E200 is the steel for vice jaws.

[@artisanmakes]

It is definitely a concern, which was one reason for the deeper case, but it is something ill keep an eye out for. Whilst it is not 100 percent analogous, but i have a 100 year old inherited vise with case hardened vise jaws (at least to my understanding) and that has held up well. But of course of it cracks ill have to install some proper jaws. Cheers

[@wagneralencar]

Great video and work! Do you know where I could learn more technically how metal tempering works and the whole process of reordering atoms? Some content, channel...

[@clutch5sp989]

Wifes cooking utensils needed: Mac&Cheese pan, food pro, tupperware bowl , cake frosting spatula.

[@danyf3116]

After soaking it in vinegar, I usually end up soaking the part in solution of baking soda and water, to neutralize the rusting effect. I also might add a thin coat of oil if I can't work with the part at that moment.

[@JETHO321]

Just a bit of advice. Case hardened parts don't need tempered since they have a soft inner core.

[@JETHO321]

Also, you can boil the rust to convert it over to black oxide which is incredibly durable as a finish and won't rust further.

[@artisanmakes]

I wouldn't have thought so but the machinerys handbook did recommend a low temperature temper. Cheers

[@robertvaughan5263]

Hey mate, good vid! Where do you get your high temp mortar and what temp rating?

[@Karpe_Deem]

I would suggest shake your part around in the water. the leidenfrost effect makes a thin layer of vapor between the part and the water, making it not cool as quickly. But this is just industrial talk. You do you m8

[@nicholaspiscitelli7685]

In school I learned how to do hardening in , It's A powder sir I forgot what it was called but i'm sure you can find out, Plus borax works as an awesome Flux 👌

[@Axel_Andersen]

Would a 'soft' vice have a better grip?

[@robbiestevens1158]

Loving it 👍 I'm intrigued, do you learn about these processes in literature and videos or do you work in manufacturing? Machine shops are crying out for people like yourself!

[@UnitSe7en]

It's called The Internet, my dude.

[@robbiestevens1158]

@@UnitSe7en I mean, I'm not dumb lol. As I said I'm more intrigued with his background 👍

[@shadowcard6923]

Few things, you’ll want to use a brine instead of pure water for a quench as it produces less bubbles than pure water, and if not just oil quench and don’t worry about tempering. Second, lapping a datum face on your vice before you begin grinding is a good idea. Stick some 400 grit to your surface plate and seal it with tape to keep the grit away from the surface and then move the vice in a figure 8 without downward pressure. Measure, push slightly on high spots, get it kinda flat, then grind.

[@artisanmakes]

Yeah the data sheet from the supplier suggested water or brine, I just found it easier to use straight water.

[@kundeleczek1]

I suggest to anneal parts befor machinning. Even if they are hot rolled.

[@woozhi9218]

Would it be economical to invest in case hardening equipment or buy hardnebale steel in the long run?It would be great if you could make a video of the case depth varying from 1 to 10 hours

[@wantafastz28]

Am I the only one shocked to see him use a grinder? I thought the hacksaw was coming out for sure.

[@DavidPlass]

Same!

[@an2thea514]

He used it in other videos before.

[@domenicozagari2443]

To stop the rust when they are red hot dip the in old oil, they turn black and never rust.

[@Critter145]

10:42 Those are some pretty chatty birds! What are they?

[@johanjanssens4530]

VISE !!!

[@artisanmakes]

Vice is correct for British English

[@hugbearsx4]

Didi you get a chance to watch Clickspring's video on case hardening? It has some good tips in there, like making the casing out of clay (to avoid all that fabrication). Also, when quenching I think you might hurry up the dunking. It might mitigate some of the warping.

[@artisanmakes]

Yes I did, probably wouldn't have been as suitable for this type of set up. The packing paste seems much better suited for files like his. Sill couldn't figure out the reason for the salt in his mix.

[@jackdawg4579]

I've had a go at case hardening using "cherry red", to be honest, it didnt seem to do much at all. Relegated the cherry red to the back of the cupboard, and decided to stick with 4140.

[@artisanmakes]

Interesting. I've heard of these case hardening compounds made for this purpose but I was wondering how well they worked. Cheers

[@gangleweed]

@@artisanmakes I've got the Cherry Red compound too and some years ago I used another compound called Casenit........both worked, and if you get the steel to bright red and " cook" it for about 1/2 hour it will give you a .5 to 1mm case......more gives you a deeper case.....it just takes time for the carbon to get into the steel surface. The secret is to keep the compound evenly covering the material to be cased while heating......being powder it tends to blow or fall off. For really serious stuff it's best left to industrial hardening shops that use nasty stuff you wouldn't want to be near. I have read many years ago that a mixture of old bones and horns crushed up will also give you a case but it's also a slow process but works too.

[@artisanmakes]

So I have heard. Machinery handbook recommends potassium cyanide as a source of carbon. Crazy eh

[@RedDogForge]

muriotic acids perfect for removing forge scale

[@dennisyoung4631]

1 part in 10 of barium carbonate??? Other carbonates as well?

[@ErikBongers]

I thought this type of hardening had to be outsourced to get a decent result. Impressive that you got this result with basically household stuff. You don't have a surface grinder do you? Curious for the next episode.

[@artisanmakes]

Yeah normally you'd outsource this job because industry nowadays have much more efficient ways of case hardening nowadays. As I understand it molten cyanide salt baths and sealed carbon monoxide ovens are used to harden steel, rather than this antiquated method that I used. Funnily enough the book that I used recommend that I use "cyanide of potassium" as a carbon source which was a bit unnerving. Cheers

[@SouseMouse]

@@artisanmakes Cyanide smoke, don't breathe this!

[@wizrom3046]

For small parts we would coat with really dirty black old car engine oil, then blast it with a blow torch to get the steel red hot and burn off all the oil, then repeat. That gives a good carbon impregnation in to the steel so it can be case hardened later by heat and quench. Probably no good for such big parts but on small things like homemade bolts and widgets it works a treat. It needs to be small enough that you can get it glowing in 20 or 30 seconds with a blow torch.

[@artisanmakes]

That's awesome, never heard of that method. I'll have to give it a go one of these days. Definitely seems better than pack hardening for small parts. Cheers

[@herrkulor3771]

Then a tar+charcoal paste should also be quite interesting

[@wizrom3046]

@@herrkulor3771 .. sure would probably work. I think you just need carbon in contact with the steel, enough heat, and keep the oxygen out.

[@jamesspry3294]

Love your work mate, but I can't understand why you didn't just make hardened steel jaws? But it's cool that you case hardened your work.

[@artisanmakes]

Hardened body will be protected from any scratches and dents. Saves me from having to grind it again since it’s protected from most dents and dings it might encounter

[@samellowery]

I'm shook you didn't cut that with a hacksaw 🤣

[@bulwynkl]

for future reference try evaporust - aka tannic acid... almost like magic.

[@artisanmakes]

Electrolysis seems to work best, I've used that stuff before. Works fine but I keep it in the shop. Cheers

[@fairstnaimelastenaime1346]

in damascus knifemaking they use SS boxes [and metal powder] as it must become part of the forging I wonder if you could use muriatic acid instead of vinegar, but it might wreck the dimensions, and if left too long might rust in the solution, so a sweet spot of time req'd to be nailed

[@artisanmakes]

I don't know too much about Damascus steel, apart from the obvious pattern, but its interesting to know that they use stainless boxes nowadays

[@yellowice0]

I need to stress the safety of the charcoal dust you work with, I remember I was making some DIY… erm launchable compounds, and after I was done working crushing the charcoal, I took a shower since it got everywhere, and I sneezed a huge glob of black out of my nose, it’s no joke! Wear a dust mask when dealing with that stuff

[@artisanmakes]

Don't want to get the black lung disease

[@michelhv]

Briquettes being basically charcoal bits and dust held together by starch or another binding agent, you would have saved some time breaking up briquettes instead of lumps.

[@artisanmakes]

That's what I thought too, but as I was researching this I found an old forum pages where someone referenced that briquette binder contains some small amount of lime and phosphorous which could make the case brittle. Of course I can't verify that, but the machinery handbook does suggest that phosphorus can make the case brittle. Cheers

[@Cjarka_]

I was trying to remove rust from the inside of a long tubing and decided that electrolysis would be the best option. So I plugged one end, filled it with water, put in the soda and connected the tube and a piece of rebar to my welder set to lowest setting (10A). After a few hours there was a layer of thick foam on in the pipe and the rebar accidentally touched the pipe and my ears were ringing for the next half an hour or so. Do not let a large amount of hydrogen explode, it's very not safe.