Catalina Island Baron Crash 8 Oct 2024

[@blancolirio]

Sad update- sounds like the Baron pilot went out Catalina to pick up some fellow pilot/friends who were stranded there with maint. issues.

[@HsquaredH2]

That doesn’t explain the intentional lack or complete disregard for procedures, rules etc!

[@greggyd321]

Unreal

[@JoshuaTootell]

If true, he still flew into a CLOSED airport.

[@MrPLC999]

Yeah I would have guessed they were going to do a quick stop at Catalina for something, got delayed and decided to leave anyway when no one was looking. But then what? Engine failure? Overloaded? No flaps?

[@Britcarjunkie]

I'm wondering if the Baron lost a engine after takeoff? OR: was the pilot even checked out to land at Catalina? Taking off (or landing) to the west, you can't see the actual end of the runway because of the hump in the center, and it throws people off all the time. (Back in the late '70's/early '80's, it seemed that every plane that was tied-down on the north side of the field, was wrecked, it happened so often)

[@speedonsteel]

My wife and I had reservations for 2 nights at Avalon for our anniversary a few weeks ago. We flew into Palm Springs the night before in order to fly to Catalina first thing in the morning the next day. You have to arrange for transportation from the airport to Avalon in advance as there are only a few services that will transport you between the airport and the town. The fog at Catalina and the weather to the island was terrible. We made the decision to rent a car to drive to Long Beach and take the ferry to the island. I never gave it a second thought about going to plan B but some of my aviation "friends" questioned my decision making. This terrible accident re-enforces that we need to make good decisions and not look back regardless what others think. Keep up the great work!

[@ericaschemeyer827]

Live to fly another day… Be safe.

[@RoseSharon7777]

My fiance and I had similar situation but ended up on Ferry at dusk with several hundred girl scouts...the sea turned into a MONSTER midway.....Helicoptered home...never been on a boat or ship since....traumatic. 😮

[@JoshuaTootell]

I flew there on Saturday and had already decided in my head that I wasn't going to land unless conditions were perfect. Conveniently, conditions were perfect.

[@jamesonpace726]

@@RoseSharon7777 I'm sorry helicopters became traumatic for you, though I'm unsure why, (haha, I kid)....

[@UnitSe7en]

Especially at a strip like Catalina where one end is a cliff to the ocean.

[@gonetoearth2588]

As someone that flies into Catalina on the regular basis I will tell you it’s dicey even during the day. However runway 4 is preferred to depart simply because it is downhill. Night time is suicide. Also the up and down drafts at each end are very significant because of the elevation Mesa type situation. It’s a significant drop off on both sides of about 700 feet. Bad news.

[@williambarry8015]

Ive always heard that place wasn't for beginners.

[@chuck_in_socal]

This is an over dramatization. This airport isn't that hard. I've been in and out of there hundreds of times. The problem in this accident was no ground lighting for visual reference and the pilot didn't switch to gauges for reference.

[@MattyEngland]

​@@chuck_in_socal How can you possibly know that? Sounds like a very experienced pilot. Could have been mechanical problems.

[@kenclark9888]

Former local SoCal guy here I whole heartedly agree. I’ve always landed 22 there and always seemed to be in a 17RG. At night no bueno

[@kenclark9888]

@@chuck_in_socalthere is nothing overly dramatic here a simple stating of what happened with this accident no matter which way this guy took off the op was prohibited as per the airport info

[@Mike_Blunt]

I'm not a pilot, I live in Northern England and work in a factory, but I appreciate your brilliant content and hope you make a huge contribution to aviation safety.

[@paulmatley8818]

Me too!

[@steveb1739]

Eyup!

[@paulregan9245]

Another brit here... albeit a ga pilot..... this is a place to go for flying knowledge. California is no different to some of our areas in the UK. Don't like the subject of fatalities but the learnings are universal

[@TheNapalmFTW]

FELLOW BRIT. I live in the US and I would absolutely recommend trying to emigrate here

[@--SPQR--]

So you're saying you don't have a loicence mate

[@CharlieFoxtrot00]

I pulled the time lapse from one of the Alertca cameras that’s on a different peak, but facing the direction of the airport (early on, before the 24-hour playback window disappeared). The marine layer came in quickly from the west right at sunset and got up to nearly the 1500’ MSL level by the departure time. While we can’t see the airplane nor directly see the departure end of 22, throughout the video we can at least see that the very top of the hill the aircraft crashed into was not obscured by fog. That hill tops out 100 feet or so below the airport. Not long after, you see the lights of several ground vehicles, then you see an LA County Fire Bell 412 come in. So while the crash site itself was just below the fog line (which came and went throughout the rescue op), there is fairly good evidence to lead me to believe there was no fog at the elevation of the departure end of runway 22 at the time of departure. Due to the remainder of the airport being lower, it’s hard to say whether there would have been fog on the first half of the runway, but as it’s leeward (east) of the crest, it’s less likely than it would have been to the west. That doesn’t preclude any other illusion they may have encountered.

[@PaleoWithFries]

@@CharlieFoxtrot00 Thank you for this.

[@igclapp]

Thanks. Is there a way you can upload that to your KZbin channel?

[@thedownwardmachine]

On taking off from a foggy, unlit runway: "I lined up on the runway as straight as I could using the only two runway centerline markers I could make out over the nose of the Seneca. There might have been a momentary hesitation in my hands before they shoved the throttles forward but soon I was speeding down the runway. It was a lot harder than I thought it would be. I could barely make out the edge of the runway and the centerline stripes came at me faster and faster. My feet danced on the rudder pedals as I fought to keep the plane going straight down the runway. If things started to get away from me I’d have to jam on the brakes quickly to avoid running off the side of the runway. But I had it. The centerline stripes were coming at me faster and faster, straight and true. As my speed increased I lifted the nose of the plane slightly prior to takeoff, but when I did that the nose blocked the few centerline stripes that were my only visual cues to keep going straight. I was speeding down the runway with my main wheels still firmly planted on the asphalt blind as a bat. Crap. I hadn’t thought of that. I was going too fast to stop so I locked onto the directional gyro compass and used that to hold my heading. An odd sense of calm came over me as I roared blindly down the runway. It was as if I just accepted the situation as unchangeable and could only do what I could do. Instead of trying to haul the plane off the ground early I let the speed build up normally and smoothly rotated into the air. I didn’t feel the plane hit any runway lights so I assumed I’d managed to keep the plane going straight enough for government work. When I saw the altimeter start to climb I raised the landing gear and let out the breath I’d apparently been holding. Dinner was excellent." McCauley, Kerry. Ferry Pilot: Nine Lives Over the North Atlantic. (pp. 253-254). Kindle Edition.

[@Chris11249]

Best comment so far. Likely what happened sadly.. Loss of situational awareness. The drop off at the end of the runway seems like a nice little advantage to have if overloaded, but I think like the story above, there were other things that made the pilot unable to make use of it.

[@sw7366]

Reading that made me wonder. . . That scenario is definitely plausible.

[@cypilotiowan4761]

I bought Kerry's book at Oshkosh this year. That guy personifies the FAA dangerous attitudes.

[@johnburgess2084]

So this guy's takeoff might have been hairy and uncomfortable, but it sounds like the plane got off the ground. OK, so why didn't it climb? Overloaded? Maybe I'm super naive, but during my flying days and subsequent proficiency checks, I could fly under the hood and keep straight and level just by instruments. No, I'm not IFR rated, and might have been in trouble later on. But, again, why didn't it climb?

[@99guspuppet8]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ WOW GOD controls the universe ….. there is no free wheel

[@markg4459]

I own & fly a '69 Baron. They have installed seats for four folks. One can add two more seats in the rear but weight in the back two (small temporary) seats typically require some offsetting weight in the nose baggage compartment. Depending how large / heavy that fifth passenger was, the offsetting weight (if used at all) could have them close to gross weight...or out of W&B limits. I keep a scale & ballast in my hangar & careful W&B calculations are a must for each flight with more than four folks, esp if anyone has luggage.

[@danielgoodson703]

Agreed. Have a 1964 D95A Travel Air. Looks like it can carry a load, but no. Great two person aircraft. 😄

[@mariehart4294]

One small correction: the stock B55 Beech Baron had IO-470 engines which produced 260 hp each. The C, D and E 55 Barons had the IO-520’s which produced 285 hp. As other people have noted, the B55 Barons are really 4 person + luggage aircraft.

[@AZFlyDive]

I've landed there six times. I would sleep in the plane before attempting a takeoff at night. A couple of times, the airport was sticking out above the marine layer. That is an interesting sight.

[@I_SuperHiro_I]

That must look surreal.

[@AZFlyDive]

​@@I_SuperHiro_I The mountain top was sticking out of a sea of white. I was too busy flying to take a picture.

[@BeechSportBill]

Sad.. The Kennedy crash of a much less qualified pilot… The autopilot could have saved them…

[@danielreuter2565]

I agree completely. It's total black hole. And when the marine layer is in, the visibility can be a couple hundred feet. And that's during the day.

[@danielreuter2565]

​@@I_SuperHiro_Iit's completely wild

[@bingsballyhoo711]

Thanks. Local CA news had the facts in this case all screwed up, so it's nice to get the truth of the matter.

[@M1903a4]

Local news reports on light aircraft incidents rarely bear any resemblance to reality. Decades ago I was an eyewitness to a crash at the airport where I learned to fly. Later, when the news was talking about the crash my first thought was "holy crap! There was another crash after I left??" They had every single thing except the name of the field wrong. Type of plane, number of occupants, injuries, phase of flight and what the plane hit.

[@railroad9000]

That is typical for CA news!

[@composerdave68]

Came here to say the same. They said it crashed trying to land after coming in from Santa Monica. They also said the plane was owned by a flight school. Clearly they had old info in both cases.

[@kevinvanlohuizen2709]

Why i wait for Juan to get it all straight for us

[@jamescollier3]

What!!?The news is incorrect lol

[@dfwdon4674]

I am based at F46 Rockwall Texas and it has the same issue. You can't see either end from other. Started my training June of 1979 at KADS and my instructor regularly made me do touch/go's and full stops at F46 day and night. I'm so grateful for such a wonderful flight instructor. His exceptional and wise instruction (for such a young CFII of 20) contributed to my 46+ years of safe flying. Thank you Mr. J. Renaud! (you can't teach good judgment, but you can exhibit it to your students)

[@dandaniel439]

During my flying days 30 years ago I learned a non-textbook landing approach technique expecially useful for flying into Catalina. Because, as Juan referenced, Catalina is akin to landing on an aircraft carrier (sheer dropoffs at both ends) I would find a bug spot on my windshield and fix it on my proposed landing spot on the runway. And I held that bug spot on there until over the threshhold. It was like my own glideslope. I found that technique useful frequently.

[@isabelfox4231]

when i came back from my daily walk with my oma our neighbor told us the sad news. they were good friends with one of the passengers who was also a neighbor down the road and were in shock. she started taking flight lessons a couple years ago and is a mother. you never think something like this will happen so close to you. it really is a reality check. thank you for providing more information so quickly

[@megworley6374]

That sounds like my friend who was killed in the accident. I never thought I'd be reading about the death of a friend here, but the moment I heard, I was hoping that blancolirio would cover it. We don't know what happened yet, but as JB has been reminding us for years, overconfidence is deadly.

[@Dan-xo9ly]

No runway lights, 5 people in a Baron - must have been heavy. Why? This seems like such a preventable accident.

[@calcutronsmith9198]

A post on the Airplanes and Coffee group says the back story on this crash is that a flight school had an airplane that flew into Catalina earlier that day and when it failed a mag check before departure, the 3 people on board got stranded on the island. The flight school owner and another pilot flew the Baron from KSMO to KAVX after hours to attempt to fix the aircraft and when they were unable, they decided to ferry the 3 stranded people back to KSMO that night. It is possible that they got special allowance from the operators of KAVX to do the after hours flight. Based on flight records, the stranded aircraft was likely N116FR, which flew to KAVX from KSMO earlier that day and has never left.

[@JHe-f9t]

I wonder how much higher the fatality rate is for 'owner of the business' on board. Seems substantial.

[@kennethraysealsphotography3513]

It's unlikely to impossible they had any kind of night authorization or approval.

[@danielgoodson703]

@@JHe-f9t Pressure is immense. You end up giving up your decision making and the owner begins telling you what to do. Have lost five jobs over 41 years, because I said no, and took the conservative (read not insane) approach. Why I eventually ran to the airlines. Tired of non-pilot owners asking me to be a better "Fog Pilot" and "Make it happen". Nope.

[@Andrew-13579]

I wonder what staff is at the airport during operations hours? 1 person or more? Do they leave before sunset to drive down the hill to Avalon? I bet they don’t like to drive up or down that unlit mountain road in the fog, at night, either. But certainly 100x easier than trying to fly out of there with so many things stacked against success. I wonder what conversation went on with the 5 aviators before the airport staff left duty? Or were they still there? It’s probably too cold to sleep in the open up there in the fog and breeze until sunrise. There looks like enough buildings up there they could shelter in overnight in extenuating circumstances? Wonder if that offer was made before the staff left, but maybe the pilots declined, thinking they’d be out of there before it got dark. And then they were stuck. If…if such a thing happened, it would be better to call for help and pay for assistance than to attempt a takeoff as challenging as, if not more so, than a night cat shot off a carrier into the soup, in my opinion. I don’t know how cell phone coverage is up there, but they had two sets of aircraft radios to at least call ATC from the ground for emergency assistance. -Overloaded?? -Taking off uphill -minimal headwind component, 70 deg off to right. Wouldn’t it have been better to takeoff downhill on Rwy 4, even with a 3 knot tailwind component? The terrain just drops off steeply to the ocean in that direction. If they’d done that, I bet they’d have made it. -minimal runway length…or less than minimal? -At night -unlit runway -probably indefinite ceiling, sky obscured, visibility less than 1/2-mile -into the inky black muck. I think I’d rather walk down the road in the fog and dark without a flashlight than fly into the inky black. Man! It’s a 4-hour, 10-mile walk to Avalon from the airport! Sleep in the planes, if nothing else. Yikes!

[@calcutronsmith9198]

@@Andrew-13579 If you are willing to pay a lot ($100-200 apparently), you can have a private taxi drive up from Avalon to the airport and take you down to Avalon, where you'll find the comforts of civilization. Cell service is really bad at the airport, although their gift shop/restaurant does have Wifi. Everything up there closes at 5pm.

[@DianeCooperTW]

I was waiting for your explanation of this case

[@jossy573]

PINC...Always learning something new on your Channel JB. Love it.

[@davestarr7112]

Second on that, jossy. I've been a pilot for many, many years but I learn something from almost every one of Juan's reports. PINC. Taking off from a closed airport ... not to even mention launching into IMC without a clearance. Reminds me so much of the Avjet crash at Aspen many years ago. The pilot intentionally began the approach _AFTER_ sunset when the approach was plainly labeled NA at night. NA means Not Authorized. So sad. I'm sure the pilot felt a lot of pressure, whether from others or himself, but how much pressure would the average sane person need to hold a gun to his head and pull the trigger? Not that much pressure in the world in my estimation.

[@UCLASMR]

​@@davestarr7112 There could be some scenarios: what if one of them got a call that their child had been hit by a car and was in the hospital on life support? If I was the pilot and it was my child, I don't think I'd wait 10 hours. And if it was the child of one of my passengers? I'm not sure I could make them wait 10 hours either.

[@thresher4]

SMO was my home base for 20 years. I met several times Ali. He owned the Santa Monica aviation flight school there. He had a uniquely colored C-172, yellow with green trim. Everybody liked him, great guy. It shocked me when I found out who was flying. RIP Ali and the others.

[@johnmorrison8942]

Thanks!

[@theoldman8877]

I planned a flight to Catalina in my RV4 . GOOD weather before departure at Catalina. In the time it took to go from Upland (I toped off at Upland) to Catalina the marine lawyer moved in . I could see the runway but I could also see heaver fog coming in so I turned back and went back to Tehachapi. After filling up at California City. My plan was to visit my Son at Catalina see camp. He survived without the visit and I made it home safely.

[@militi]

I am a CFII that has flown in there many times, including this past weekend. It’s unlikely there was any fog on the airport at the time of departure - the ASOS there is working on radio, but unfortunately is not reporting online this week. However, taking off on runway 22 at night is crazy as it is a complete “black hole” departure toward the ocean. My suspicion is that the pilot had nothing out the window, did not get on the attitude indicator or autopilot right away and let the nose come down along with a little right hand bank - and that was it.

[@westcoaststeamer]

flew Catalina for 30 years out of Torrance Airport... these people were dead before they even tried to take off (heavy at nite is madness).............

[@bw162]

@@westcoaststeamerDitto only out of John Wayne. My guess, more than his judgement was impaired.

[@jimslimm6090]

It is funny reading the comments on some of these incidents. It realty is not relevant what the facts are that are not know. Just make up a fantasy story about the unknowns and comment on that. That still serves as a warning of how to fly in what ever made up scenario is assumed.

[@bw162]

@@jimslimm6090 Speculation on a/c accidents by pilots based on limited or preliminary info is human nature that is only constrained if you work for the NTSB. I drove by a car wreck today and speculated the rest of the way home.

[@josephoberlander]

It's a LOT worse than the picture and video he showed us - you simply can't see the other half of the runway. It's a barely usable strip at best, but at night and in fog.. My guess is that he was looking at the last few bits of usable light as he made it to the taxiway and turned around and got ready to take off, not knowing that the fog had rolled in on the other side, already. (since it will bunch up behind the island as it moves towards the coast) So he takes off and then flies into into black soup, even though the uphill part of the runway ( from his perspective ) likely looked clear.

[@hotttt28]

Back in 1966 I had just gotten my private ticket . I wanted to impress the young lady and suggested we fly to Santa Catalina Island from San Carlos California. She seemed excited about the idea. I started checking out my sectionals flight duration in assessment one50 etc. etc. etc. then I noticed on the note going into the airport at Santa Catalina Island, a note that said experienced pilots only. I went and talked to Mr. Vanvleet. My instructor about the experience pilots only business. He looked at me and he said "if you have to ask you or not" I decided not to go to Santa Catalina , for a few more years, it's a horrible, horrible accident and my condolences. Go out to the family and their friends.

[@DrJohn493]

Wise! And here you are today, able to share your experience. Hope you had many pleasant and fun flying experiences along the way.

[@Bright_Broccoli]

I hope the young lady was impressed with your decision. If she wasn't, oh well. You are here to tell the story.

[@alandaters8547]

Flying always requires that you know your limits! I had a similar situation trying to land on Block Island (off Long Island NY). I tried 2 approaches and decided that the combination of crosswind off the ocean, a C-150, and my less than 150 hours meant that I would be taking my date back to home base. A pilot with more experience could have made the landing, but I was not ready.

[@tdkeyes1]

@@alandaters8547 A man's got know his limitations..

[@chetmyers7041]

Good of you to seek the opinion of a more experienced aviator. How many pilots fly to Catalina without a raft or basic floatation devices onboard? Hope most pilots follow the know boat traffic route.

[@carolinelvsewe]

Juan, I love that your channel, bottom line is about safety and respecting the plane and the regulations at each airport/landing strip. To the families of these passengers, condolences .

[@julzb7165]

Sounds like they should have waited for the morning. Get thereitis, very tragic. RIP to the victims and condolences to families. Covered thoroughly as always Juan.

[@steveneldred8928]

This probably doesn't have anything to do with this incident. I do not fly, but have had a lifelong love for aircraft. Years ago a friend of mine and some of his friends flew from somewhere on Michigan's mainland to Beaver Island for a weekend of fishing. He had gone on this trip several times before and knew people on the island. When it came time to go back to the place on the mainland of Michigan where they had departed from, the weather had become bad. My friend told me that he and his fishing friends were in a bar at Beaver Island airport waiting for their plane to come in. While they were there they were talking with a woman, the wife of a doctor, who owned recreational property on the island. She told them that she would never fly to or from the island, but always went by boat. But, because of the weather, the boat wasn't running. She told my friends group that her husband, who was a pilot, had insisted and forced her to have him pick her up by airplane; she was terrified. Eventually the airplane arrived to pick up my friends. But, the bartender, who my friend had known over the years, said, "DO NOT GET ON THAT PLANE!" They were dumbfounded, as he had been a friend. They said, "The plane got here, it doesn't have far to go to get us back to where it came from." Again, the bartender said, "DO NOT GET ON THAT PLANE!" He upset them so much, they didn't get on the plane. A while later the doctor arrived, as I recall it was in a Beechcraft Bonanza. Boyd, my friend, watched as the doctor forced her to board the plane, while she was crying all the time. They set in the bar with their beer and watched as the doctor took off and crashed a few seconds later, neither survived. He told me he spent the rest of his life thanking that bartender.

[@mattlongen1927]

Holy crap! I’ve flown my wife before and she’s a nervous flyer. I always stress to her and my passengers that if they are uncomfortable they should speak up. I encourage passengers to ask questions. It doesn’t matter if they aren't pilots or if they don’t know much about aviation, their voice/concerns/questions, if they have any, matter. I can’t imagine forcing my crying wife into an airplane she didn’t want to go into. Not flying out of the airport in your story is a classic definition of personal minimums and despite the wife not being a pilot, pilots should respect the minimums and concerns of their passengers. After all, we as pilots have or should have our own set of personnel minimums when it comes to the go/no decision and adhere to them. That being said, I understand “get there itis” and I’ve definitely pushed the envelope a couple times by myself when I just wanted to get to my destination. I’d be interested in reading the NTSB report on this one. @steveneldred8928 What year and where was this accident?

[@Starship007]

It’s a scary runway during the day. Similar to a deck landing on an aircraft carrier

[@queazocotal]

ADS-B data was transmitted, for a flight taking off at night. It would be interesting to look back at logs, and find out if there was more than one flight doing this.

[@kmrtnsn]

It’s a flight school aircraft, trends would be impossible to ascertain.

[@queazocotal]

@@kmrtnsn I do not mean this particular aircraft, or indeed airport.

[@Johnfisher12345]

@kmrtnsn You didn’t even watch the video. It was NOT a flight school aircraft any longer. This was a private flight.

[@juliogonzo2718]

​@@Johnfisher12345actually he owned the defunct flying school that was the previous owner I'll try and post a link

[@juliogonzo2718]

​@@Johnfisher12345yeah it didn't post. Google his name and the flight school name

[@TIO540S1]

I heard an interview with someone who claimed to have been at the airport at that time. He said it was clear, that the marine layer tops were below the airport. I flew out of Long Beach, about 20 miles from Catalina and at the coast, early the next morning, i.e., this morning, October 9. KLGB is at 40’, sky condition was 400’ OVC. I reported tops at exactly 1,500’ MSL. Usually the early morning is when the marine layer is thickest, so the witness’s report of Catalina being clear is credible.

[@frankgulla2335]

Very patient and thorough report. Thank, Juan.

[@Bright_Broccoli]

Juan is a great reporter with his research and facts.

[@Aereaux]

When I lived in the LA area we used to fly to Catalina. Interesting approach from east to west. There were always turbulent winds coming over the runway at the east end. This could put you into a decent. I always was a little steep on the approach and kept a little more power. When you take off, there is sometimes a problems with winds that can tend to make you decend. Just need to be ready when you get to the end of the runway. I was flying a 182 so we never had a problem, but in an aicracraft like a Baron, you were close to the limit for safe runway limit.

[@rogerpenske2411]

I have driven up and down PCH in the evening when the marine layer comes in. No fooling, you can barely see 10 feet in front of you.

[@Garth2011]

With 4 passengers, the airport rules say no night flying and the airport being closed, what else is there to suggest the pilot put off the trip until morning?"Got to get there" strikes again.

[@bills6093]

I wonder if the pilot has done this before?

[@itjustlookslikethis]

@@bills6093 Of course he had done this before. He pushed his luck one too many times.

[@Raelven]

I can see the Catalina and San Nicholas islands, part of the Channel Islands, from my front yard. It has been exceedingly foggy the past week. The thickest marine layer I've seen in ages. Visibility of maybe 500 feet on the coast, can't imagine it was much better over the islands. RIP to pilot and passengers.

[@juniortsf]

Yeah what’s up with all the fog down here lately

[@mattf49006]

spot on Juan..i'm a san pedro native and got my PPL training at KTOA in torrance...the FBOs rules were NO night /dusk/dawn operations to Catalina...my instructor took me out and we did a dozen approachs and go arounds before landing for lunch while he debriefed me...back then the strip ahd a distinct hump mid way down that gave the impression the runway was about to end as you rolled out ive flown 172s..152s..piper warrior.. 182RGs..210s and the FBOs 310R...if you did your planning and didnt do something stupid you were golden

[@hattrick2219]

Which KTOA FBO? When? TY

[@lindaschad9734]

I got my PPL, Commercial and instrument rating at one of your neighbors: LGB! There was no flying to Catalina, Big Bear or Las Vegas without a CFI endorsement, and my CFI made the most of his free lunches provided by me everywhere we went (Jorge Correa - I wonder whatever happened to him?).

[@mattf49006]

@@hattrick2219 southwest skyways ..'84

[@hattrick2219]

@@mattf49006 Collins-Dietrich...'65

[@Alexgeo4975]

One of the passengers on board was a flight instructor based in the Sacramento area.

[@a1reliableairconditioningi149]

Assuming that was a BE-95-B55 as reported, it would have originally have been equipped with IO-470L engines, not IO-520’s.

[@rickjackson4330]

I was thinking the same thing, then I saw the photo of the plane with 3 bladed props. I checked the Type Cert, you're correct about the IO-470s, but with 2 blade McCauley. I recall working on B55 that had an STC to put IO-520s and 3 bladed (Hartzells maybe). My FAA Maint inspector at the time made a huge deal about the IO-520s being installed. We were trying to put it on our 135 cert at the time, we had to jump through a lot of extra hoops.

[@a1reliableairconditioningi149]

@@rickjackson4330 my B55 has 470’s with a 3 blade STC. If it came from the factory with 520’s it would have the scoops on top of the cowls. It could have a 520 STC I guess.

[@dvpro1]

This came from someone who knew the pilot.....pilot of the Baron was the owner of the flight school. Another flight earlier in the day from that flight school went to Avalon. Upon engine start / run up one mag was inop. Apparently the owner flew out to pick up that pilot / pax

[@davidchmelir]

Juan, a guy posted on reddit that another plane from a flight school in SMO failed a mag check and this Baron was dispatched to retrieve the 3 people in that other plane.

[@AirSafetyInstitute]

Thanks for covering this, Juan. Lots of good takeaways for GA pilots.

[@timadolphson6971]

Operations are prohibited at night.That pretty much sums it up... Play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.Unfortunately , took four other souls

[@georgewchilds]

Self-cleaning oven. smh

[@baomao7243]

No night ops is EXACTLY the same first thought that came to me. (Even when you simulate flying it at night, one sees is way more challenging than expected. )

[@OMGWTFLOLSMH]

Who gets on as a passenger though? What's their thought process? Why?

[@robertlafnear7034]

Well... during the day (evening ) they have a fine restaurant and it attracts dozens of transit planes...... it is Pitch Black after dark... PITCH BLACK !

[@JoshuaTootell]

A lot of pilots tend to be "rules don't apply to me" types, and their friends are probably the same ​@@OMGWTFLOLSMH

[@RedArrow73]

I hope NTSB thoroughly checks the back story. RIP to those lost.

[@T_Mo271]

I'd guess the NTSB will look at the facts and decide this accident investigation only requires a few phone calls.

[@ACME_Kinetics]

@@T_Mo271 You might not be wrong, but everyone underestimates the time the NTSB has.

[@jimslimm6090]

Hopefully, the NTSB thoroughly investigates s o that this kin of accident can never ever happen again. /s

[@chuckschillingvideos]

I'm just curious what your reasoning is here and why it would matter. An illegal flight from a socked in airport with no lighting, no ATC. Is that not enough for you?

[@andrebello4191]

​@@jimslimm6090its one thing for the NTSB to do a good investigation. But its also up to pilots to pay attention to what happened and learn from the mistakes or circumstances that caused this.

[@bradylaplante8441]

Been flying SoCal last few weeks and Catalina has been above the fog layer when we fly by it early mornings, so it was probably VFR when they departed

[@xfirehurican]

I only have 18 landings/departures at AVX for the occasional Buffalo burger at the terminal or a day visit down to the marina. I missed the 1700 closure deadline ONCE. The four of us got a room.

[@OMGWTFLOLSMH]

And you are still alive. Funny how that works.

[@HowShouldIKnow6543]

Power loss on #2 might give the same ADSB track

[@ArambulaFlights]

Oh wow… I was in Torrance yesterday around 6pm and I actually saw that plane flying above at around 4,500 ft heading towards the Palos Verdes practice area. Being the aviation enthusiast I am, I quickly open Flightradar24 to see what plane it was and where it was it coming from. Noticed that it was coming from Santa Monica and it was a beech twin engine. Surreal to think what would happen a few hours later.. My thoughts and prayers go to their family and friends.

[@daxflame163]

I'm hearing from the local flying community here, that all 5 of them were licensed pilots, 2 of them CFIs. My condolence to the families.

[@bart1950]

More than likely at least 1 of them was against the idea and was peer pressured into it. I feel for that soul.

[@airpilikia]

That's a terrible thought that we just lost 5 pilots. Very sad. RIP and condolences to the families.

[@theflyer4916]

Just a correction, the B55 series Baron is powered by the smaller Continental IO470 engines. As always, thank you for your informative videos.

[@SlowFlight101]

As an instructor in the local area out of KTOA, I can say the marine layer this past week has been unusual in its lingering, very thin, and extremely low AGL. Catalina is the only VFR airport all morning long. By 8 pm it is likely to be encroaching around AVX, but from what I have been seeing, its a high chance airport itself was still VFR. Tops consistently below AVX field elevation. I have been getting out early morning VFR On Top with students and Catalina truly does appear to be the "airport in the sky" as everywhere else is socked in.

[@Aeroaviator27]

Agreed, tops of marine layer where below AVX field level, no fog present either.

[@slimjim3280]

I’ve been hearing the same thing, AVX was clear at the time of this accident.

[@stevegiron8825]

I along with the people from 10 other planes spent the night at Catalina long ago. We flew in at about 12 noon for lunch with severe VFR weather. Remember those 1990's all you can eat summer bbqs??? At about 3pm a fog bank was seen rolling in. We all ran to our planes and started up and headed to Rwy 22. I was #3 for departure. #1 took off, #2 accelerated down the runway and then aborted as the fog rolled in at the departure end. I lined up, added full power and about 5 seconds into the roll, I aborted and took the first runway exit. I knew I'd only need 10 seconds into IMC and then it would have been VFR all the way back to LGB. I has passed my IFR written, had a few instrument lessons, plenty of time in the sim, I KNEW I could climb through the thin layer, make a 180 to the north and be in VFR conditions quickly. I also knew that if I had an engine issue I could not get back to the airport. I had flown in there 30 times previously and knew the surrounding terrain has never been survivable for an off field landing. 30+ years later I'm here to tell this story. The layer was slow moving and the airport stayed open an extra hour to let us depart. No one was able to depart. We all took the shuttle down the mountain into town, all ate at the Italian restaurant. It was a co-worker and I, and we had to call the boss to tell him we were stranded on an island in the pacific ocean. We were only 1 hour late to work the next day in downtown LA.

[@jimchesnutt7879]

And that is near-perfect ADM. When I was training I flew into AVX several times and would never try to depart at night or in < VFR conditions. Also every time we departed the downhill side because there was good mountain effect and prevailing winds.

[@shelbyng8703]

Air Traffic Controller here. You are alive because of your excellent common sense and good aeronautical decision-making. Some pilots believe that everything will be fine once they are airborne. However, what happens if they are unable to remain airborne? In our profession, we have a saying: "The safest aircraft is the one on the ground." My condolences to those who have passed away.

[@AlanToon-fy4hg]

But at least you got there....alive....

[@FourthWayRanch]

So you were gonna take off into IMC without a flight plan?

[@MWTGoldenGun]

​@@FourthWayRanch My thoughts exactly. No instrument rating and no IFR flight plan means no cloud flying.

[@steveturansky9031]

The fog at SoCal / OC beaches has been pretty intense most of the last week, including Tuesday. On many of these days, visibility has dipped down to less than 400 ft. Could be even worse on Catalina.

[@nancychace8619]

Sorry for this unfortunate loss. Condolences. RIP.

[@gryhze]

Network news reported three pilot instructors and two students aboard.

[@batakasthedrummer]

Here in Mexico, we have our own "Catalina island", it is called "Atizapan airport MMJC" the strip is only 4000ft long and has an elevation of 8120ft, have an slope of about 2.5% is a true aircraft carrier if you are courious enough just google it, they operate a cessna 501 from there, not a joke, just like messing around with weight and balance. Awesome videos as always.

[@Redbaron_sites]

There are many AV channels I like, but Juan and Hoover are the Ace of Aces of aviation journalist.❤

[@robinr.2233]

Curious, once you get your head around that there is a hump in the middle of the runway and that you’re aiming at a cliff on approach, Catalina is a fun destination. I’ve never flown there at night but during the day VFR, it no problem.

[@PaulLemars01]

We've flown into Avalon Airport a few times. As Juan says, it is very much a carrier landing. They pretty much leveled off the top of a hill and painted a strip onto it. There is no emergency landing around the airport, it's all hills, tight canyons, cliffs and ocean. No handy golf courses or the like. The town of Avalon is a thirty minute taxi or bus ride down a very windy/hilly narrow road. There are no private cars on Catalina. So once the Taxi drops you off at the airport you are stuck. You have to call for transport from Avalon at that time of night. We used to arrange for a taxi to be at the airport to coincide with us taking off from Van Nuyes (our base airport). When we were there 20 years ago Avalon was an amazing destination off the coast of LA/Long beach but flying into it was white knuckle all the way. I'm sorry but the pilot was an idiot. And yes, I've seen people fly off the end of 22 downwards and disappear from view only to appear on the 'upwind' leg parallel to the runway from behind the next hill over. They were idiots too. We used to watch the fresh food DC3 land there as well when it was flying. It used to take almost the whole runway just to deliver the seafood and salad to Avalon. My flying days are behind me but I still fly into the simulated Avalon on MSFS. It never occurred to me to try and do it at night in the fog with a fully loaded aircraft.

[@geofiggy]

JB, I hope you and the Blancolirio team doesn't see my "thumbs up" as a negative action when you update us with sad news and fatalities. My intentions are to inform you that I appreciate you being there and updating me of the latest news, whether positive or negative. I do have compassion on those who perished. I think your extensive and updates are very informative and I've always indicated that for years. Your thorough investigative work and research is greatly appreciated. Once again thanks for your upate, time and resources. Fly safe and God bless. All the best to Pete, Jenny and your daughter.🤟🏼🖖🏼🙏🏼

[@transparentaluminum]

No worries, I'm sure most of us fans know that the likes are for Juan's work and not the misfortune of tragically lost souls. Aviation is safest when pilots remain informed about every tragic situation so as to more diligently avoid the same.

[@mazterz]

No one - and I mean no one - ever thinks that???

[@pcpolice7937]

Don’t use juvenile emoji’s. Problem solved

[@Performanceproductionservices]

I trained at John Wayne Airport and had to land at Catalina with a CFI to be allowed to initially rent the FBO aircraft. Since then I have landed and departed there numerous times. Take off with a Cessna 172 is short field, 10% flaps, lift off at VX but stay above the runway in ground effect and pull out the flaps and stabilize prior to departing the end of the runway. It can be tricky. Especially on a hot day. Many of the accidents through time have occurred there due to weight and balance problems and not following the short field procedure just explained. Pilots often depart local airports that are nearer MSL on a warm day on the edge of the weight and balance and depart from Catalina with a higher density altitude at 1,602 elevation on a typical hot day and drop off the end of the runaway when the ground effect disappears. I understand that this accident was a different scenario but even after the correct procedures I explained this pilot still would experience that sinking feeling when you depart ground effect on the west end of the runway. What was this experienced pilot thinking!!

[@divingfe]

a 3000 foot runway in a 172; Definitely NOT a "Short Field"

[@Performanceproductionservices]

@@divingfe You are right but for this runway departing uphill it is treated like a Short Field

[@JoshuaTootell]

I treated it as a short field, even though it wasn't needed. Just added a little bit of safety buffer, and make my new to flying girlfriend a little less anxious. But I was well below gross.

[@tdkeyes1]

Have to ask. Why not depart to the east?

[@davidwhite8633]

⁠​⁠@@divingfeCorrect. Nor was any flap necessary--that would just reduce both angle/rate of climb of course.

[@theronerd]

Juan you need to let me know when you're flying out of LAX. I work at LA Center. We handle the traffic going over the ocean and towards the bay area. Also look up N6077X. My old supervisor handled that situation beautifully.

[@TonyWilliams123]

All five victims have been identified in the 8 Oct 2024 crash at KAVX airport, with N73WA: 1) Ali Reza Safai, male, 73 - Pilot In Command (PIC), Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) and Certified Flight Instructor (CFI), West Hills, California 2) Joeun Park, female, 30s, CFI, North Hills 3) Haris Ali, male, 33, Private Pilot, Fullerton, California 4) Gonzalo Lubel, male, 34, Student Pilot 5) Margaret Mary Fenner, female, 55, Student Pilot Ali Reeza Safai and Haris Ali flew from KSMO to KAVX to pick up the other three. To my knowledge, none of them were aircraft mechanics, nor did they have tools to repair the plane that the other three Proteus flight school associates flew earlier to KAVX, but that was now disabled in some way.

[@heven729]

I’ve flown to Catalina many times (actually have flown the 172 in that AOPA video, N660SP). One thing is for sure, it’s a very tricky airport to fly in and out of. Since the restaurant at the airport closes at 4pm, it does seem likely that either they flew there and attempted to return or the pilot made prior arrangements to pick up passengers. There is a shuttle that runs between the airport and the city of Avalon. Usually runs 5-6 times a day with the last departure from the airport at 5pm.

[@dhrracer]

The scenario that first came to my mind was that the pilot was picking up the passengers. The time on the ground would suggest the pilot had no intention or plans to partake in any type of activity on the island. Five soles suggest to me it was the pilot and two couples.

[@williamlloyd3769]

Interesting that the iPhone crash alert feature made the initial alert. RIP

[@shawnhicks9838]

Could have been a pre set voice command

[@jeffreyschweitzer8289]

The runway is higher in the middle, you can’t see one end from the other

[@father-sonflightsimulator3838]

And at night you can’t see anything beyond the landing lights…and if foggy you can’t see Jack 💩

[@caiolinnertel8777]

Flew in under VFR, and departed with no IFR clearance. I checked ZLA ERAM Automation and there was no flight plan filed.

[@donmoore7785]

in the dark, with no lighting on the runway or field.

[@cremebrulee4759]

​@@donmoore7785it was beyond stupid.

[@transparentaluminum]

@@donmoore7785 + field closed into IMC with no clearance and likely no planning. Cringe. However, we all make mistakes and 5 souls have shed this mortal coil. Only sadness and a lesson for those of us who remain.

[@chuckschillingvideos]

@@transparentaluminum Why do people persist in calling accidents like this "mistakes" ??????

[@transparentaluminum]

@@chuckschillingvideos I'm not sure this crash can be classified as an accident. It's too early in the investigation to accurately say, but if it was PINC (Procedural Intentional Non Compliance) is it an accident?

[@Masterofnone-70]

The current owner was my flight instructor. He owns Santa Monica Aviation so it looks like he took private ownership of the plane from his company. I hope he wasn't on board. He was a highly experienced pilot and instructor and was instrument rated. During our lessons his emphasis was always on safety. We flew to Catalina as part of my training and had bbq at the airport.

[@N1120A]

He was on board and was the PIC, unfortunately

[@Starfish2145]

@@N1120Ayikes. Hurryup itis

[@mat1500]

A full loaded, very old unknown engine power, condition, piston twin, on an upslope off a 3,000 ft runway at 2000 FT elevation, fog, full dark, pushed every common aviation decision beyond all reason. Basically bootlegging it against regulations which in this case had good reason to exist.

[@tomasalvarez6040]

Ali was my instructor also, back in 2009. May he rest in peace. I just saw him this past saturday at Proteus at ksmo. We chatted a bit. Camt believe he is gone😢😢😢

[@tomasalvarez6040]

@@N1120Asoo sad😢😢

[@darksidemachining]

Great Video. Hoover of Pilot Debrief said in a video titled “5 Dangerous Attitudes That Get Pilots Killed” that one attitude is Anti Authorty… they don’t want to be told what to do and that rules and regulations don’t apply to them. The pilot broke the rules by attempting to depart at night. As the aviation phrase goes “Rules are written in blood”

[@navion1946]

That sounds right until you consider that night takeoffs are only prohibited if the airport is unattended. What does an attendant have to do with flight safety? It’s a private airport so they have the right to close it when they want, but if it’s just to make sure they have someone there to collect a fee then that’s not a safety of flight matter.

[@aaronpike1853]

@@navion1946 An attendant provides one more layer of safety and a less biased take on whether or not a departure would be safe. It sounds like this airport is generally not safe to use after dark, so the rule is "no use after dark" and the exception is "airport is attended" to allow for extenuating circumstances.

[@navion1946]

@@aaronpike1853 are you a pilot?

[@josephoberlander]

The issue is that due to how the fog quickly bunches up behind the island, the uphill first half would have looked likely clear as it was sloped upwards to the sky, but once you hit the other end that flattens off, you suddenly can't see. It'd be solid fog and a black hole. Perfect conditions to get disoriented in a heavy plane.

[@litarea]

Wow. I just hiked the Trans-Catalina Trail two weeks ago and stopped at this airport for lunch... you might get away with taking off to the east in the dark since it's just a big dropoff, but going west just makes zero sense.

[@N1120A]

Speaking to a a friend familiar, the owner of the well regarded Proteus flight school/hangar operation was apparently also on board and killed in the crash.

[@kennethraysealsphotography3513]

Years ago I spent some time with the pilots of the Wrigley family at their base in Chicago. They explained to me that they routinely landed their in the Company Falcon 50 (which is awesome at short field operations) at Catalina. After dropping the passengers off, they would relocate to a mainland airport for the trip back to Chicago since the Falcon 50 would need more runway for the return trip than available at Catalina.

[@markcassen4139]

95-B55 Baron stock has Continental IO-470-L producing 260hp, not the IO-520’s. Small detail, but is what it is.

[@fosterkennel649]

It has been many years since I went to Catalina by ferry. My heart goes out to the families affected by this blessings

[@rallyden]

Many times the wx at AVX would be vastly different from the mainland and San Clemente. AVX has been clear above the marine layer for the past 1-2 weeks. AVX ASOS has not been up on text but still broadcasts on VHF.

[@JoshuaTootell]

I couldn't even pick it up on the radio Saturday, and the phone line didn't work. I decided ahead of time that I wasn't going to land unless conditions were ideal, and they were.

[@kevinmaizey6118]

Nice to see you back. I look forward to your video's. I worked in aviation for my whole working life, especially interested in aircraft accident reports without the BS. Your reports are factual. That's what counts.

[@N1120A]

1) My guess, given the age, is this Baron was actually IO470 powered. 2) The pilot appears to have been a CFI and former owner of a flight school at SMO.

[@lisasteimer5860]

Thanks Juan for the quick observations.

[@madreep]

Not aviation related, but I was a chaperone on my son's school trip to the marine biology camp on the island, and at night, it's so dark. Even to walk from the cabins to the bathrooms, and they had outside lights on them. I can't imagine why anyone would think that they could fly out in that. It's an entire sea of black. We flew in and out of Long Beach and took the passenger ferry.

[@RoseSharon7777]

We took the ferry from long Beach to Catalina at dusk back in the 80s. It was loaded girl scouts. The sea turn horrible midway and it took hours to get there. Everyone was throwing up even the crew. I was barfing blood by the time we made it. I refused to take the ferry back so my fiance was forced to hire a helicopter to get us back. It was awesome! Got a tour of Queen Mary, Spruce Goose Dome, thousands of dolphins jumping out of water, shipyards, etc. Although I've never been on any kind of boat since in 40 years!!! It was that traumatic. 😮

[@madreep]

@RoseSharon7777 similar experience, except we went in the middle of the day and we had 89 8th graders puking everywhere. I didn't throw up but I was terrified. The next morning the kids went kayaking and my son's kayak went too far out from shore and a speedboat had to tow him back in. The water was so choppy it just drug him out. The coast guard ended up closing the waterway for the first 3 days we were there. It was still gorgeous though, and an amazing experience at that camp. We were there from Oregon. His middle school takes the 8th graders to that camp every year. They learned alot and it was alot of fun, minus the ferry ride. The kids were so nervous to get on when the week was over, but it was great that day. I would love to visit Catalina again one day.

[@madreep]

@RoseSharon7777 we were on the opposite side of the island from all civilization. So there were no attractions except the cute little foxes and the beautiful elk that came through during the night. I often have insomnia so I was the only one who got to see them.

[@AndrewWells527]

I wonder how many night operations happen out of this airport that aren't reported?

[@theberrybest]

My aunt was a pilot back in the 70s. She flew in once, and that was the end of that. Lol. She recalls the landing was something of a bouncing ball.

[@mitchellsmith4601]

There’s no ILS. Cloud cover can obscure the airport. KAVX is closed at night, and it would have been closed when the Baron departed KSMO. What was this guy thinking?

[@PatrickDuffy-u3s]

The reference to Kobe Bryant is a good comparison. The problem was not loss of spatial orientation but rather the foolish decision to fly in poor conditions.

[@cremebrulee4759]

The Kobe Bryant flight wasn't going to an event worth risking your life for. The pilot made so many bad choices that day.

[@johngreydanus2033]

@@cremebrulee4759 And yet he was the top rated pilot who instructed others on safety, specifically what do do in that exact situation.

[@kewkabe]

Short runway, heavy load, maybe the pilot figured he would level off and fly in ground effect to build up speed, not remembering the ground fell away right after the end of the runway? Hard to stay in ground effect when the ground drops off.

[@tonylevine2716]

New subscriber. Someone mentioned your page in a news story about this tragedy. I usually watch the @Pilot Brief” channel. Both of you do a great job reviewing these accidents. I’ve learned so much, and it will help me when I pursue my PPC. As far as this tragedy, I hate when the mistakes of the pilot not only kill themselves but also their passengers. Curious about the weight & balance and if there was a stall. The “Get-There-Itis” is real!! RIP. 🙏🏾

[@Redtail_Pilot]

Never be afraid or ashamed to say "NO". First to yourself, then to your passengers! 🙏🏾

[@erselley9017]

If it had been a successful flight would the pilot face any type of consequences for taking off when it wasn't allowed or would he have gotten away with it since no one was there?

[@MikeCris]

It's a private airport...they'll permanently ban you from landing there again.

[@pplusbthrust]

An uncomfortable feeling comes over me when there is more distance to shore than I can swim. The song says it is twenty six miles.

[@markhwirth7718]

It’s a very sad situation for every body involved! I wish there was a way to intervene when decisions like this are being made to go ! But Instead we just have to hear about the accidents . Thanx Juan for the report !

[@tclem44]

Is it a sad situation when someone crashes a car driving 100+ in the rain? I say no, it is not. It was not an accident.

[@markhwirth7718]

Thanx for your response ! Accident was probably the wrong word here ! It’s more like a bad decision made ,by let’s go ,shouldn’t be a problem and I’ve never had a problem before ! It’s hard for me to see and hear about these basic misjudgments that take innocent lives !

[@carlstrohmeyer]

Ive flown to Catalina several times when i was an active pilot. I have multi-engine rating and flew Senecas, but never rented a Seneca for this airport, rather Archers or a 182. Definitely a more challenging airport and a fair weather airport too. Great restaurant though.

[@zanny2388]

I got my license in the 80s out of El Monte. I haven’t flown for decades. There wasn’t any restrictions back then flying the rental 172 to Catalina. In my brief time as an active pilot, I flew to Vegas, Big Bear, and Catalina. Great memories. Sad to hear about this tragedy.

[@rd4660]

We've had at least ten days of serious fog here along the coast in SoCal. It's been clear for typically only four hours midday. Also one thing people who don't work or live on the ocean realize is how inky black it is at night. Add blackness plus anti collision strobes bouncing around in the fog and you have a visual nightmare of disorientation.

[@bw162]

It’s an upslope on 22 but not mentioned is a “hump” about halfway down that first time visitors aren’t aware of. Numerous aircraft have had accidents initiating a go-around after touch down mistakenly thinking they were about to run out of runway. Likewise, a TO at night with only minimal distance illuminated with landing lights, the hump can cause a pilot to attempt an early rotation before the airplane is ready to fly. I’ll wager that’s what happened here and when ground effect ran out, down was his only option. And that’s even a tough option VFR in daylight.

[@jfkastner]

At the End of the RW they were at 97 kts depending on GW that could have been enough ...

[@bw162]

@@jfkastner”could have been”. Pitch black w/o any visual reference outside. Dark cabin. No runway lights. Closed airport. Can’t visually see end of runway even at midfield on TO in even normal conditions. If he did the TO in fog, he likely had moisture on the windscreen. And was taking off uphill. Makes you wonder if he didn’t have another impairment besides bad judgement. I have flown many times into Catalina in my prior life including in a 58 Baron. 10kts above stall speed in dirty config, is not much in those conditions especially if he had horsed it into the air because of the runway “hump” and got a stall horn to add to the stress. Hand flying with those distractions and even the best pilot can misplace 10kts in the wink of an eye.

[@jfkastner]

@@bw162 Sadly was definitely not a good choice to fly anyways. Overconfidence / Get-there-itis? Esp. experienced Pilots think 'I can do this anyways'. Thanks for your insights. We'll see. Maybe problems with #2, couldn't see anything during the preflight in the Dark ...

[@bw162]

@@jfkastner There is another post that I hadn’t seen that explains what were the real circumstances. Tragic anyway you cut it.

[@josephoberlander]

@@bw162 It amazes me that when they had the runway "renovated" (state forced the owners to do so ), that they didn't address this issue. Near maximum weight, rotate early, disoriented in the fog.. all the holes start to line up.. :(

[@aircampilot8025]

sad for the innocent passengers that had no clue

[@rogerallen6644]

Another pilot that thought the rules didn’t apply to him. Just maddening.

[@megadavis5377]

I wonder what type of attitude indicator was on board. You know, the old ones are susceptible to precession pretty badly - especially during a flat, rapid acceleration takeoff. The indicator will show an ever-increasing climb attitude as the airspeed builds quickly. A pilot fixating on such an indicator will naturally push on the yoke in an attempt to gain a normal climb attitude. That, of course, will cause the aircraft to descend even though the attitude indicator shows a definite climb attitude. A poor instrument scan will cause the pilot to miss all other evidence of a descent.

[@josephmarciano4761]

So almost immediately after becoming airborne, he began descending and then CFIT?

[@JeroldMurphy]

That was my takeaway, too.

[@transparentaluminum]

So sad. Some basic facts make clear the initial landing was well after the published operating hours when the airport office and shuttle to Avalon are closed for the night (17:00 local). Regardless of the reason for why this flight was conducted, it was never advisable or legal from the get-go. As a So-Cal pilot for 35 years, I've flown into AVX many times, and chose not to land there several times for visibility and/or wind. It is a very challenging runway environment with rapidly changing visibility (the frequent marine stratus layer often presents as ground fog at the 1602' field elevation), a sloping runway that creates the illusion that you are much higher on approach than you really are (this requires the pilot to ignore the visual cues and trust only the VASI and altimeter) causing pilots to approach too low if relying on visual reference alone. The most favorable prevailing wind will typically have a 20 degree or greater crosswind angle (>=240 for rwy 22). It is perched on a flattened mountain top with steep drop offs at both ends which cause significant vertical wind shear. The 3000' runway length at 1602' elevation on a hot day requires the pilot to review the density altitude and aircraft limitations for both landing and takeoff to determine if the maneuvers are possible. However, when conditions are safe, the pilot is well prepared and adheres to procedure it is a beautiful experience like no other. The SeaBees completely replaced the runway a few years ago as a training/practice project and it is far better than it ever was before.

[@motorTranz]

May God comfort the families of those who perished. My sincerest condolences. Thank you Juan for your analysis

[@drgruber57]

Amen.

[@2140BlackCreek]

As I remember, that airport is nothing to be played with. Memory again, but was't the first pilot of the X-2 or was it the 3 killed going into Catalina in a GA aircraft- back in the day? Thanks Juan.

[@Mikey300]

You're thinking of Bill Bridgeman, who as a test pilot for Douglas Aircraft flew the D-558-II "Skyrocket" to Mach 1.88 and 79,494 feet (both records) in 1951.

[@Surfcityham]

@@Mikey300 Research says Bridgeman was flying a Grumman Goose amphibian. His body was not found. They flew from Long Beach to the isthmus and, I believe, to Avalon. They stopped flying in about 2000. I have a photo of my sons in our Boston Whaler with the Grumman landing in the background.

[@erich930]

What a terrible tragedy... Unbelievable that someone with his ATP would do such a thing. Just goes to show that no one - NO ONE - is immune from making stupid decisions!

[@DrJohn493]

I run out of fingers counting the mistakes this pilot made, and carried himself and his passengers to their deaths. The last mistake, not establishing and maintaining a positive rate of climb, but that might have been impossible given the load that Baron was trying to lift. Poor decision making all the way around. Tragic beyond words.

[@davidmerwin7763]

Such a sad ending. Thanks for your report Juan.

[@MA-ro5qi]

Sad indeed. Thanks for the info sir.

[@JSFGuy]

As predicted. Let's check it out, analysis and all.