Catastrophic Airbags When Towing

[@maxwood192]

Because you work in the car suspension industry you are going down a trial of discovery through trail and error. Which is a great way to work out what works. There will always be a weak link in the system as you will discover. You can install good suspension but the basic problem is we are all towing to much weight in relationship to the tow car weight. I enjoyed your video.

[@bretdempster9964]

Great video. I am surprised, No one has looked at taper coils. Contort and load bearing. Have a look at what simplicity axels have come up with.

[@auzy_stevo5037]

It’s like you did the vid for me, I’m trying to decide what to do. Appreciate the info, this is gold information.

[@adambatchelder4121]

I have 2 points to add . First is on coil springs . When possible use progressive wound springs they start out softer and ramp up to the full rate. With airbags especially the ones with the bigger lines use a separate air volume tank and you will be much happier with the ride.

[@zeitgeist785]

If your patrol client is driving the ST, he’s got 582kg payload available. Minus over 350kg for towball weight like you said he has, leaves at most 232kg payload for his towbar 40kg, himself 80kg, his travelling companion 80kg, recovery gear Inc air compressor 30kg OOPS already out of payload and that’s even ignoring the GCM figure (use that and you get even less). What about clothes? Food? Water? 2nd battery? Jerry can for the petrol that thing will drink? Irresponsible.

[@Rexy888]

Cool story bro 😎

[@ThaSpud1]

keen as to see the "new system", i have been looking at them for a long while and it is hard to find a decent review on them. .... are you going to throw some on the front as an experiment ..... ;)

[@jozefgrimes4139]

Cheers for this

[@zeitgeist785]

And what about extended bump stops/aeon springs? Maintain comfort and lower height when unloaded with increases spring rate when loaded. Cheap, simple, reliable, easy to fit, no moving parts, actually improves ride even when unloaded (improves bottom out performance) although may benefit from an updated damper, especially in rebound.

[@obs2746]

What’s a ball park price for the gear in that TIL

[@angusrainbow8853]

I'm excited, proper air bag system. I have to park in the city and can't increase my height any further

[@zeitgeist785]

Have you looked into aeon springs/ extended bump stops? Pedders make some. A long bump stop that, when unloaded, does nothing, but when loaded, becomes a load bearing spring of sorts that ramps up spring rate the further it is compressed (much like an airbag) but without the aggressive rebound of an airbag.

[@angusrainbow8853]

@@zeitgeist785 I don't get how this can raise and lower my vehicle like an airbag can

[@zeitgeist785]

@@angusrainbow8853 Oh, they can't. I was assuming that the reason you wanted to raise the vehicle was so that, when loaded and towing, it would drop back to its normal ride height. If you want to change your ride height for other reasons, then an extended bump stop isn't going to let you do that. EDIT - Oh, I get it, I wrote "maintain comfort and lower height when unloaded...". by "lower height" I meant that the vehicle's ride height is lower than if you fitted stiffer springs needed to deal with weight when towing. So while extended bump stops can't change the ride height of a vehicle, they improve your load carrying capacity without having to increase the ride height.

[@andrewiannello6548]

Re: Springs not available.... That's why I used Browns Springs in Thomastown. Don't know if he's still around? They could hit any height for any given load you wanted to the millimetre. He was cheap too, worth looking up if you want to go commercial. The workshop used to make parts for the West gate bridge. They moved into springs after the industry slowed.

[@gtf0102]

Good informative video , but rather than just put a stiffer spring in the rear and or airbags to carry the weight which it will do quite well. Another alternative is to run a spring one rating lighter and use a weight distribution hitch which will bring the rear up and transfer some weight to the front axle improving steering and mainly braking ability with the benefit of a good ride when not towing. Tough dog TDC790L front coils, rear TDC795 with airbags rides like std empty but will tow 3200 kg with 320 on the ball has worked well for the last 3 years, just another way to do it. Keep up the good work.

[@DW-10]

But a WDH is a bandaid to compensate for spring rates that are not up to the job. WDH work, but they are not without their own risk and cost. They add mass, they add stress through the tow coupling and entire vehicle chassis, they can mask instability up to a point but once that point is exceeded they can make things worse. The best solution to sagging suspension is to reduce mass. Then spring the vehicle appropriately. This only becomes an issue when the vehicle is being asked to perform two tasks that are very different (comfort when unladen and support when load carrying). In a typical (space constrained) vehicle application, it is easier to make an effective variable rate leaf spring than a coil spring, which is why (airbags aside) most load carrying vehicles tend to use leaf springs. My 2c, I’d rather run appropriate spring rates (steel or air) on the vehicle than bolt a large spring across the tow coupling to try and force the nose of the tow vehicle down.

[@kevinmaggs6370]

Not all of us believe that a wdh bar works yeh i know they work on bending a frames on trailers. Anyway the video above is very informative i reckon a lot of fellas are now be working toward this setup as shown by dash. Thanks dave very informative

[@hayleyandblake]

Hey mate, is there a follow up video to this?

[@johncanalese588]

How about some manufacturer look at a Progressive Rate springs. This could be another pathway between the thicker wire/airbag assist before moving onto full air suspension.

[@thebeaton8460]

Great video Dave. Just wondering how you guys went testing the jumbo airbag man airbags in the standard height y62.

[@DASHOffRoad]

Jumbo’s work fine on standard height vehicles, but as per Airbagman, they have asked us to fit 119 standard heights to vehicles that are not lifted

[@stevegoodwin5841]

Tyre pressure is actually determined by tyre construction, axle load and road conditions, so 50 or 57 PSI in the right tyre construction and conditions can be accurate.

[@weridegiantsmtb284]

Good video mate! I’m waiting just a little longer as there’s talk of quadralift like JGC. But I’m leaning towards what u an murts have an lower an upper control arms in the front. I’d like to sit at least 2-3 inches higher. Plus the price needs to be right as on track lift felt excessive. Odin62 🤘🏼

[@zeitgeist785]

!connecting airbags! Mate, perfect anti-anti rollbar. As you lean (when cornering) pressure increases on the loaded side so would increase pressure on the unloaded side effectively lifting that side and further increasing lean. Sure, it ‘might’ help get extra travel but only if you’re not getting full travel already (and ‘great’ way to encourage your already lifted and tippy 4wd to take the final step and fall over onto its side).

[@DASHOffRoad]

Agreed, need to be careful of air moving across the bags to cause a roll over

[@RobertOgs-ik9hc]

Great post (just discovered your site and subscribed) I have just brought a 2019 Y62 , pick up next week and tow a 3500 van Given all that you have said and it is now 6 mths what spring upgrade do you suggest and air bags (think my ball weight would be say 280/300) Would get you to do it but i think you said you are based in Adelaide and i`am in Perth so not very practical to drive over Please let me know your thoughts

[@KangoV]

Very nice video! 3.5t on the back of a LR3/LR4? No problem ;)

[@fenflyer]

P38 D2 12,000 Ilbs in US 🤠👍 That's 4.5 t + 🙈

[@sambo47]

G'day dave. any update on the new bellow system ?

[@jason-dashoffroad3096]

Hey Marc, The bellow system Isn't quite ready for production just yet. We're still working closely with Ontrack to get the auto leveling sorted and a means to control it. Once we get that sorted and approved for Engineering and ADR we will release them to market! stay tuned!

[@poellot]

I have a 2014 passat, i have quite a few hundred pounds of tools in the trunk all the time. I want to get back to normal height. I am considering options. I see no heavy duty springs available. I can get firestone coil rite, or try my chances with passat wagon springs, but no idea if they even fit let alone if they will be the correct height when im done. I do not want to go full air ride for one simple fact, all the 12 volt compressors are way to loud. Is there any option that i do not see? I checked many web sites and find no other option.

[@DASHOffRoad]

Not sure sorry

[@gregstephens361]

Great video Dave ,much to learn here ,on air bags with leaf suspension will the air bag put all the weight on the chassis arch in one spot resulting in chassis failure , this is for towing with a ball weight of 250kgs on a 79 series , also have a friend about to buy a Nissan to tow a 3.1 tare van ,I will direct him to this video ,again thanks for the no bull or commercialised information

[@wyattfamily8997]

Why would anyone buy a Nissan in 2022....crazy.

[@kenezos]

Is that on track system only good for towing? I don’t own a caravan, but wondering what a good set up for going off road is? Great vid mate

[@garynew9637]

Where did this 10% tow weight on the ball come from?

[@vektorhome]

Hello from America can all you talked about fit my 2018 armada? Need to know will be towing in the near future Looking to you to purchase and ship to the states. Victor B.

[@CptChilliRing]

Good video, good info, full air is the way but you could also just tow less

[@4x4CampingandAdventures]

I am really curious to why people who know they want to tow a big rig but they still buy a 200 or 62 there are so many better alternatives like Rams F150s etc.

[@flynncruickshank6211]

People want wagons that are big but still tow well, they are simply better than an Everest or Pajero type but are cheaper than a massive American Ute

[@jasonh6475]

Buy a 200 series or y62 and spend a easy $25,000 on suspension,brake ,gvm and power upgrades ,find out your GCM doesn't give u 3.5t towing now ,.Maybe a ram or chev is probably better as factory ready with warranties that are valid

[@4x4CampingandAdventures]

@@jasonh6475 yeah that’s what I was thinking I wouldn’t bother towing a big van with mine I would sell it and buy a Ram or F150 every day of the week.

[@jasonh6475]

Hate the phrase bolt on weights. You cannot make a airbag in a coil take a extra 600kg(4 people,food,camping stuff and any thing else people cram in a car) plus towball weight . At 20psi your spring is literally bound to the air bag destroying any handling .all that shock loading is going straight into the mechanical components.My view and its what I was told years ago by airbagman is 15psi max. Any more change the spring rate.

[@auzy_stevo5037]

For me I may tow 2-3 weeks of the year, for the other 49-50 weeks I want to be able to Zip around freely and not feel I’m in a truck that our roads and car parks aren’t really built for. If I were going around Aus I may think differently but right now enjoying the V8 Y62 will put a smile on my face every time I push that pedal down.

[@kman6482]

My concern with the bellows airbag is failure. What happens when your in the never never with your caravan with ball weight of around 250 kgs shits itself. Bit risky I say.

[@tinnyona4x424]

G'day Dave, great info. What's your opinion on doing big gvm upgrades 4t plus and putting a 3.5t caravan on the back, is the rear end on these things built well enough?

[@DASHOffRoad]

Can’t be done, I’m afraid a Y62 isn’t the right vehicle for that sort of thing 😩

[@tinnyona4x424]

We love our 62 and we're days off from handing it over for said upgrades and we also tow 3.5t van but after seeing this it has made me question the build. For someone that doesn't particularly like American trucks it doesn't leave many options. Appreciate the reply Dave, cheers.

[@brucebrownhill1117]

@@tinnyona4x424 why would you want to tow such a Heavy Caravan with a 4wd ,safter to buy a small truck they are made to handle weight like that not 4wds .

[@JohnSmith-hr3gv]

Hey there. What is your recommendation for leaf springs and airbags? Is it essentially the same as coils just with leaf changes or are they not affected as much as coils?

[@DASHOffRoad]

I’m sorry but I don’t really have any experience with leaf springs so couldn’t say

[@grimreaper6112]

look at the size difference between a coil spring and leaf spring and if thats not enough go have a look at a truck.

[@JohnSmith-hr3gv]

@@grimreaper6112 It's not just a size difference. There is a whole different dynamic working here as they operate using different mechanisms. Am I right or am I over thinking the whole issue?

[@pen1910]

gives you another 300kg on your gvm but what does it give you on the rear axel mate ??

[@DASHOffRoad]

300kg, it’s all on the rear axel

[@brooksy2093]

pen19 Rear axle loading on the Y62 is above GVM from factory & it’s where the additional 180kg rating directly comes from with zero modifications to vehicle from factory.

[@adamsurf76]

Hi Dave just have a question I got the GVM 300kg upgrade done with you guys with billet arms not long ago which is awesome however I cant seem to get the van level even with the bags up to max. Just wandering you stated in that y62 you use now the 795L in the rear I only have the 795. Would it affect my engineering certificate if I installed the 795L in the rear mate? In the front I have the 790HL cheers

[@DASHOffRoad]

Could be a few things. Next would be to look at your tow hitch height and of course, ball weight

[@fossilfuelenthusiast]

Check your ball height

[@adamsurf76]

@@fossilfuelenthusiast hey mate yeah I have checked that actually first thing I did lol

[@adamsurf76]

@@DASHOffRoad yeah cool checked the height and it’s fine ball weight about 285kg

[@aussiewalkabout4x4]

when i had airbags joined and hit a side slope the bottom airbag pumped its air into the top airbag and tipped it over even more .... just sayin'

[@travelandadventurewith4x4]

Just curios, did you watch this before you uploaded it?

[@DASHOffRoad]

Yes, of course. Why do you ask 🤷‍♂️

[@travelandadventurewith4x4]

@@DASHOffRoad Well first of all let me say that it is fine to use Air Bags on standard suspension per se. I have used them on GU Patrols for the last 20 years with no dramas, level the combination and rides normally ! As to the comment obviously you are a warts and all creator just shoot and upload with no or minimal editing, I see from your statistics works for you so no need to change I guess, all the best !

[@rossevans1774]

The 'wire size' in itself is irrelevent without consideration of the steel quality and the temper of that wire size.

[@Portyhouse]

great video, I've been very mindful of weight. My Isuzu MUX has 3.5t. The New Age Road Owl is 2.35t empty I believe but with a mixture of load in the car and van I'm probably carrying another 400kg (people, fridge, offroad gear, kayaks, ball weight etc). I'd be close to GVM and GCM but still legal from my calculations. The MUX however is quite saggy on the rear, even when the van is empty which to me was surprising at 2.35t. Soft suspension I guess. I'll probably look at air bags very very soon.

[@djnmv]

Hey Dave, you are probably already aware of this, but just thought in case you weren't, that I should let you know that the audio wasn't great on this vid. It sounded muffled and cut in and out a few times. Interesting new suspension design there, looks similar to the Cruisemaster ATX airbag suspension my father in law just put on his caravan!

[@DASHOffRoad]

I’ve always struggled with audio sadly. For this vid I changed to a level mic which did have improvements whilst it was working, but did cut in and out a bit unfortunately. It’s something I’m continuously working on 😩

[@djnmv]

@@DASHOffRoad can't say I've noticed too much audio issue in other vids, maybe a bit of wind noise here or there but no big issue. Keep up the good work! 👍

[@angusrainbow8853]

Use an audio compressor

[@brianwalker1933]

Leaf springs are superior for load carrying. Coil springs are inferior in comparison. Either carry less loads and tow less loads or buy a more appropriate tow vehicle.

[@barrymurphy3554]

Dave long time supporter Legendary Mate You & the Wife & Family deserve everything Nissan should give you a free Car to Max out. Come on Nissan Dave is selling your 4wd’s every day how about supporting him, I am just a viewer Dave & Company is making your Product so much better. Dave has single handed taken on Toyota & has made a better product how about some support. I am sure $100 grand would help out Dave’s Business Dash Off Road. Show so support for a Family that has pushed your ( Great ) Product for years and will for more to come. Nissan Japan & Nissan Australia please look at help out a Aussi Battler doing there best. Thanks Heaps Legends

[@DASHOffRoad]

Too kind. I’d be happy with just a NISMO jacket 😅

[@zeitgeist785]

And what about the practicality? Tow 3500kg and carry SFA in the car. You’d be lucky take your missus, her makeup bag and a full tank of fuel in most vehicles before hitting you GCM (certainly if you already have fitted bash plates, bullbar and a winch). Towing 3.5t (100% capacity) is impractical and dangerous.

[@PaulMotu]

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Martin. I posted a reply to the comment by 4x4 overlanding above (or is it below LOL) which sets out my experience with our current Toyota L/C 200 series so won’t repeat all of that here but 5 years ago we also drove a “relocation” L/C 200 series and the 22’ family van back (combined relocation after some guy and his Czech family travelled around Australia from Perth and left it in Sydney) back across the Nullarbor from NSW back to Perth and it too was an absolute towing dream and tow vehicle. We’ve had our 200 series now for going onto 5 years and ditto our 3.5T van (purchased a week apart). We are young’ish and travel a lot every year in our 3.5T (when fully loaded) van - 6.5T total GCM which we are at when fully loaded. We carry a LOT of shit and are right on our GCM when fully loaded (we have weighed it officially on two big trips to check our weights beforehand). I’ve never bothered towing our big van with anything smaller after experiencing the ‘relocation 200’ which lead us to buy our 200 series and she’s an absolute beast for towing and overtaking ROADTRAINS into headwinds on UNSEALED roads which I can honestly say is when all tow vehicles will come under the ultimate test of capability and stability and I would strongly suggest anyone buying a tow vehicle totally disregards the bullshit that the sales person at the car yard will throw at them to buy any vehicle he wants to sell you (unless it is like a 200 series). I invite any one who tows a big van with a 79 series to also give their views too about that as a tow vehicle because I can vouch the 200 series can tow 3.5T safely, comfortably and with absolute stability. Off-road, overtaking a road train into a headwind!!

[@zeitgeist785]

@@PaulMotu Both our views can co-exist. You say towing in the LC200 works. I don't disagree. I say when you do the sums, the Patrol towing 3.5t means you get to carry SFA in the cab itself because the max GCM leaves very little payload. The 2021 LC200, unladen weight 2720kg. +3500kg for the van like you said. Gives you 6220kg (edit- leaving another 630kg before hitting max GCM but that's irrelevant because of limit imposed by max GVM). EDIT- Max GVM 3300kg less 2720 less 350(assuming 10% towball download) leaves 230kg payload in your car. Say 80kg per person, leaves 70kg for luggage. So either your van didn't weigh 3500kg or you and your passenger weigh almost nothing. Remember that 70kg has to include towbar, bullbar if you have one, roof rack, jerry cans etc etc. Sure, you can tow 3500kg, just don't expect to take much else, let alone go for a holiday somewhere remote.

[@PaulMotu]

@@zeitgeist785 Yeah sorry mate. Bit misleading of me. Our van is 3500 fully laden with everything in it (at that weight it is at it's max). It's the Coromal PXC 612 which has a max loading of 3.5T which we get it to. Ball weight when fully laden is a tad under 300kg's (we have ball weight scales and check that each major trip too). The GCM of the 200 series is 6850kg's (not 6220kg's) which we also get it to (GVM upgrade doesn't change this as you will know) when hooked up and all our shit on board including installed extra's. We are on the legal limit but towing capability and safety are definitely 100% with this vehicle. Appreciate your reply mate and for keeping shit real for everyone. Cheers Martin

[@zeitgeist785]

@@PaulMotu Yeah, getting the GVM upgrade does unlock you from the genuinely impractical payload limit. Lets you use some of that spare GCM that is out of reach otherwise. Some manufacturers do well to give you the impression that towing 3.5t is a practical option for stuff like going on holiday with the family but then neglect to point out that (without a GVM upgrade) you have to pick either the family OR their luggage, NOT both! lol. Which then creates the GVM upgrade market (The cynicism is strong within me....I think I must be auditioning for a grumpy old man position!)

[@joshuakerr2411]

Gcm on the patrol/ lc200 and other makes is unattainable with out a large gvm upgrade. Patrol has the potential for 1100 kgs of payload keeping within 7tgcm and towing 3500kgs. Sounds like your bad at maths or lack education either way a garbage comment.

[@acenterten2142]

I have bajaj auto rickshaw want to take her please guide thanks Sir

[@newport5504]

I don’t think those big air bags will be the next thing, too much to go wrong on your chassis where the bags mount and the diff, they will be the weak point instead of the spring/ airbag, they

[@cluby62victoria59]

The issue you’re possibly aware of with structural weakness was on the GU upper mount always breaking. The upper mounting point on these is super strong as is the chassis. The diff can’t be impacted by the airbag cell. The known weakness is the lower control arm which OnTrack has already come up with a bullet solution :)

[@LGR_LGR_LGR]

Sounds like the vans weight is more than the vehicle, which isn't good.

[@brooksy2093]

Sorry Dave but your generic statements with regard to coil diameter means better is totally incorrect. You need to understand coil rates, windings, different processes (cold & hot) & other things that go along with it. Put the verniers down as they are a machinists tool 😉

[@DASHOffRoad]

Thanks for watching Brooksy 😏

[@brooksy2093]

@@DASHOffRoad love ya long time mate. Just trying to help as there is far too much misinformation out there.

[@Wilbargosh]

I powder coated my springs red 20 times and ended up increasing the spring thickness by 3mm, it has made the car go faster and now I’m confident towing a ton ball weight offroad!

[@DW-10]

To be fair, he did comment he wasn’t going into windings etc. Arguably all else being held equal, surely coil thickness should result in a higher spring rate.

[@brucebrownhill1117]

Why would you not just a truck to tow 3.5 tonnes ,with safer for ever one on the roads. Not a 4wd drive you make suspension stronger. Then your next week point will be your chassis.

[@beaver528]

Why is there no mention of load distribution hitches.

[@DASHOffRoad]

Can’t say I’m a big fan of them. They are a bit of a pain to use I reckon

[@marty754]

Skip the Y62 ... go straight to the U5023 Unimog .... its a no brainer zzzzzz LOL the MOG will tow 6 Tonnes !!!! and carry 6 Tonnes.. like I said, its a no brainer @ 260,000 AUD

[@brianmaclennan561]

Be easier an safer for these caravan clowns to buy a smaller, lighter caravan. But that makes too much sense i guess..

[@CptChilliRing]

Gotta tow that big box of air around

[@Wilbargosh]

I’ve decided, when I’m traveling remote I’ll camp in a tent with stretcher. My Dmax with Norweld canopy has all I need. When I’m touring, I’ll stay at a hotel/motel. The cost of a room per night, even a cabin at a caravan park, is cheaper than buying a big caravan and hauling it around

[@jorjimaco5331]

Good vid… I feel sorry for all the y62 owners. More money than sense. Buy a chev. No dramas. Nice cars tho. 👍

[@Corey-pd3mi]

Too much beer will do it every time

[@DASHOffRoad]

Or not enough 🍻

[@Keithy_W]

It’s pretty epic to see the exploded bag! Not often you see them that bad. Weight overloads and debris are the usual culprits for these. I hope you find the results you’re looking for in the bellow bags twin setup. Personally I don’t think you’ll get the wheel travel you’re looking for in that setup. The single bags have more room to flex. I’ll throw up a vid from my own channel, this is a P38 Range Rover with factory air suspension. I’ve lifted the suspension 2” and put Arnott air spring is (made in America). They’re a factory fit bag for this Range Rover and offer about an extra 2” of travel - they’d be something good for a Y62. The vid shows the impressive wheel travel they offer. Love watching your vids mate 👍🏻 kzbin.info/www/bejne/mHmnmIeXjtmdoZY

[@DASHOffRoad]

Thanks for that, I’ll check it out 👌

[@craigmooney2630]

Shout yourself a decent mic 🎤 Dave, audio pretty average 🤠

[@DASHOffRoad]

Yep, on it.