Cate Hall | What it's Like to Lose Your Mind | Win-Win with Liv Boeree

[@MrRaddd]

One of my favourite pod episodes ever

[@hsiaochen4775]

Excellent interview on sensitive topics. I appreciate your preparedness and focus on the interview with topics that aren't necessarily mainstream yet you made it accessible and relevant. And kudos to Cate for being eloquent, thoughtful, and vulnerable in sharing her feelings, experiences and point of view. One of my new favorite podcasts. Excellent job!

[@jasonharrington6717]

Very late to the party, never heard of you till listened to you on Lex Fridman while driving, now you're one if my favorite podcasts with several ofy favorite individual ones. This one was definitely one of the most interesting for me personally! Came for the addiction recovery story (a number of people very close to me have struggled with addiction issues) and stayed for the poker & mystical experiences. Loved this! FWIW as someone mildly bipolar who gets by without meds and who's best friend is off the charts bipolar for whom meds don't work, her experiences don't seem like typical manic episodes at all to me. Definitely putting it under either hallucinations or genuine mystical experience (which aren't necessarily contraindicative of each other). Anyway, so glad shes doing better and absolutely great show!

[@LivBoeree]

Thanks so much Jason, and welcome to Win-Win! Stoked to have you as a fan :)

[@benjaminlopez9662]

I’m also an atheist. I have at times felt like drugs opened my mind but I didn’t go super far with the hard stuff. I get the sense that Cate is a seeker and a helper and also a recovering self medicator. She’s also extremely intelligent and accomplished in many difficult fields. I think seeking god and finding god is something that she did and we do in order to protect ourselves from ourselves. She was hurting herself. She was hurting her mind. And now she’s not anymore. Glad to know that

[@MichaelLaFrance1]

I had to watch this episode twice, Cate's story is fascinating. edit: Today's Win-Win moment: "A belief that one's well-being cannot be separated from the well-being of others....And I think that recognition that advantaging ourselves at the cost of other people really isn't winning."

[@RobertMorgan-n8m]

I found this conversation very mentally stimulating. Good to hear people that have the words to describe their thoughts.

[@anonymoususer4356]

This is awesome. Liv, thank you for having Cate on. Cate, you are amazing. Thank you for sharing your story. I love the scientific way you approached your trips.

[@John12050]

That was an amazing conversation. There is openness in the way Cate is able to talk about her experiences that seem completely unguarded which is extremely rare when someone is in conversation in such a public way.

[@alxghyu1844]

This conversation is invaluable, whether you talk about law, poker or spirituality. Thanks Liv and Cate you're both brilliant !!

[@jdh2024]

Another winner! I always look forward to your next episode.

[@ChrisInmanDrums]

A really intelligent discussion, enjoyed every second of it. As someone who is highly sceptical when it comes to the topics covered in the latter half, I can still say I appreciated the matter-of-fact way that you both navigated the conversation. Can’t wait for the next episode!

[@HellsMaw]

I loved this episode, thanks (it was a win-win)

[@rcnhsuailsnyfiue2]

Incredible conversation. I had a similar transformation, like Cate I was a rational atheist and NEVER in my wildest dreams would’ve imagined I would call myself spiritual. But here we are (no regrets!). I also took excessive notes on every detail to try and understand it rationally, no one “thing” explains it all, but viewed together, the big picture makes total sense to me now.

[@thewakakeboarder]

What makes sense of the big picture now that you understand?

[@danzacjones]

I feel like something about psychosis and the spiritual is how much we take that experience and try to make it relevant in social contexts so its more like we all drool but if we drool constantly it is medical but nothing to say about the truth of drooling... drooling is definately a thing! ❤❤❤

[@drucev]

Kudos to the both of you for a very authentic discussion. Maybe from a decision theory standpoint, the beliefs question is which decision puts you personally and your values in a better place? So maybe you should decline the Pascal's mugging because from a game theory perspective it leads to getting repeatedly mugged, like the Pirates of Penzance who end up raiding ships crewed entirely by orphans? And from a Bayesian standpoint the mugger doesn't bring any real evidence or information to the table? and also, if believing in God makes you a better and happier person and if everyone did it would lead to a better world then it is rational to believe, just from an instrumental outcomes standpoint? "Too much sanity may be madness - and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” - Don Quixote

[@loveolutionaustin6449]

Yes of course you can have spiritual awakening without AS negative effects! But WOW this conversation was so intimate and powerful! Thanks so much to both of you for sharing and I hope this reaches many people! I learned a lot through this, like levels on levels of knowledge here: law, poker, psychology, spirituality, biotech? Amazing. 🙏🧘‍♀️💫

[@RamezNathan25]

This was beautiful thank you Liv. Keep podcasting

[@ypey1]

The way you personalize an abstract systemic feedback problem by calling it the evil god of Moloch is so interesting to me. It is a very powerfull retorical tool. I love it

[@halcyon7005]

Really enjoyed this one. The gamification lens on her experiences and roles in the world is really interesting. I'm hoping my understanding of it gets to a point where I can see some clarity in my own life...perhaps even direction beyond something like not wanting to participate in most of society. This podcast is helping. Do people like you exist to run into in bars? Also fascinated by her experience of seeing something like Samsara and then meeting God. I think it's real. Though I do like to keep my skeptical mind alongside, like some dutiful canine.

[@MichaelBoyle514]

This was great. Congrats to Cate on getting things back on track.

[@shoppster300]

What a slightly disturbing yet interesting look into the mind of an otherwise intelligent and practical woman, as she descends into drug induced delusion and even in full recovery, clings to the delusion as a way of giving the overall negative experience some positivity and meaning. The mind is fascinating. One should remember that even though psychedelics seem to open our vision to something that is other, all it is really doing is shining a light on our own inner consciousness and our minds derive meaning from this with whatever life experiences we have already had. This was another great podcast Liv, you don't shy away from topics or themes that even you have trouble reconciling.

[@DannoFZ1]

Project much?

[@tex959]

​​@@DannoFZ1 I'm not sure how he's projecting? One might consider the original post to be a little too confident in a naturalistic explanation but he also might be completely correct. I don't think anybody has a monopoly on the truth.

[@shoppster300]

​@@tex959 I dont think anybody even knows the truth, but this is my opinion I guess. One thing I'm pretty solidly sure about, is that nobody is seeing what they think they are seeing.

[@shoppster300]

@@FierBarca1899 Whichever way you like. I fail to see how geographical location and atheism dictates anything. Other than maybe education level.

[@tex959]

@@shoppster300 Correct. This topic is talked about quite a bit in epistemology. It's not that we don't "know" things, it's that we get way too overconfident. I don't think 95% of people have any clue how much they are programmed by their genetics and environmental influences such as social conditioning. I'm not sure how valuable intuition is, as a measurement for truth, regarding beliefs and how we interpret evidence. I'm much more confident with my intuition, when it's used to establish truth for situations that are directly related to our survival. Whether or not we think that we have a grasp on existential questions, has little bearing on our survival. If you think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs; I have more trust in my intuition for the bottom of the pyramid, the survival needs, but less confident the higher I ascend up the pyramid. At the top of Maslow's pyramid, I'm very skeptical of my intuitions. The truth behind meaning, purpose, self-actualization, and 'spirituality' has little bearing on my ability to survive or procreate. Don't get me wrong, these beliefs can absolutely aid in survival but the truth of these beliefs are not factored into the survival equation. For example, If I have a religious belief that helps me connect with my community, and also provides me with a sense of meaning and purpose; Which also might offer hope for an afterlife.... This belief need not be true to provide us with a survival advantage.

[@i_want_youtube_anonymity7099]

Who made the background music to your intro? It's absolutely lit.

[@LivBoeree]

Right?! Its Hadouken by Lupus Nocte

[@christianbache4074]

Very interesting onversation/interview. However, i also sit with the impression that we got left with some large gaps or questionmarks in this story. For example after the meeting god/break thing we get to know Cate didnt go back to poker and nothing more meat on the bone. What happend here? Why didnt she go back to poker? Did she lose all motivation for the game? Financial reasons perhaps or going broke? Other personal reasons maybe?

[@brendonlake1522]

Btw 'Meeting God' tacked on to the end of the video description. The description of the vision is very interesting, the experience of those Hindu type 'gods' VS GOD and the big contrast.

[@glenliesegang233]

55:46 mind is a process which brains enable, like what appears on a computer monitor is not created by the hardware, but the signals and information 'dancing through' that hardware. 58:46 not sure of the proof, but Australian aboriginals experience "the dream time" and communicate while out of body over long distances.

[@wills2864]

Excellent podcast, i have been a rational athiest all my life and have come to believe in some sort of deity, through more rationale persuasion than drugs, i beleive that the world is so deeply interconnected with nature and the solar system that we can barely comprehend it as a species. Now the question on the child cancers and whatnot if you look into nature, cancers heart disease do not generally occur, only when when we feed animals none species specific diets do these things occur. So cancer ,diabetes or obesity and many other human diseases are most likely toxicities than naturally occurring and the evidence would be in the fact that the further we have got away from mainly, a natural meat based diet and especially over the last century these things have massively increased alongside the use of seed oils and processed foods, all said diseases have skyrocketed. The problem with alot of science is the fact that it is done by people and paid for by people with vested interests so it is heavily floored, and alot of good science has been quetly disregarded and people silenced in favour of getting a certain outcome, such is the price of giving humans free will!

[@Athegnosticish]

I was not interested in the original title but added it to watch later from my phone and saw it was changed. Politics ~ Dog ~ Religions ~ God language is the tool of human communication...THE which is a giant improvement from grunting LOL

[@ikesau]

Just a heads up for anyone worried - DEEP VZN, the USAID pathogen research project discussed in the final chapter of this podcast, was cancelled in July 2023.

[@chill29394]

Why I saw Hate Call?

[@Wraith-Knight]

the key to wining is knowing the opposition better than they think they know themselves - if i ever get hold of some one in a position to listen in ukraine watch the difference

[@sushimidget840]

How is Liv so damn cool. How is anybody this cool?

[@donbarile8916]

Oh well... Cate's a keeper.

[@grunff]

While I understand your reasons for not discussing the drugs and drug experiences more explicitly, for me this decision left large gaps, and made the interview on the whole quite unfulfilling. As another atheist who met god on psychedelics, I was very interested to listen to Cate's experience. I am left somewhat disappointed.

[@tex959]

What type of God do you believe in? I'm an agnostic but can appreciate other's experiences.

[@grunff]

@tex959 I think that's beyond the scope of a youtube comment reply 😂. Best description I can give is that my god is whoever set the value of the fine structure constant (and maybe other physical constants, but maybe they emerged). It is definitely not a god that knows me personally.

[@tex959]

@@grunff Yes, a non-personal God is definitely possible. Spinoza, Einstein, etc., would probably be on board with that concept.

[@DD-co1zn]

40:56 ... Why is there so much handwringing here about the details of her drug use ? Just using the generic term 'drugs' is not meaningful, nor is 'low doses' .... She may as well not answer the question at all. Alcohol is a drug btw, but of course it's not what springs to mind when someone says they were 'doing low doses of drugs'.

[@michaeldillon3113]

I think Cate could make a great contribution to l society by writing about how the Law has become so corrupted. How she describes Law in reality is very far from say the principles of Magna Carta . Following American politics iwas naively surprised to hear how just getting opponents bogged down in litigation can be a way of destroying them .

[@michaeldillon3113]

I wonder if Cate knows the work of the scientist-philosopher Bernardo Kastrup ( PhD PhD) ??? He does some really interesting presentations on KZbin looking at what psychedelic experience looks like on functional MRI studies . Some very surprising results ! I personally regard Bernardo is a very important person as he brings together quantum physics , AI , consciousness studies , psychology , and spirituality - and that's all before breakfast 😅. I'm not his agent by the way !

[@jasonharrington6717]

Dunno about her but I at least thank you for the rec! (Many months later, when you will never see it)

[@N0N5T0P]

Poker is a zero sum game monetarily (well, actually negative sum given the rake). However, it's clearly positive sum with regards to utility, as demonstrated by individuals voluntarily engaging in it. This shouldn't be conflated.

[@Macattack11639]

While I can appreciate the frankness of thought, I think towards the end it became Pyscho babble and talking in circles. Just too long of self aggrandizement for my tastes. The NBA bettor guy was awesome.

[@jrbranum]

That's a stack I'd love to try! @45:00

[@NC-ck5oj]

If I thought Id spoken to or had communication with a supernatural being, my initial reaction would be that Im mistaken. If there is particular god amongst the thousands that have been recorded throughout history that is real, why does it only let a small section of the human population know about its existence?

[@tex959]

Agreed. It's the 'Divine Hiddenness' argument against an all-powerful and all loving deity.

[@tex959]

It's not that we don't "know" things, it's that we get way too overconfident with our existential beliefs. I don't think 95% of people have any clue how much they are programmed by their genetics and environmental influences such as social conditioning. I'm not sure how valuable intuition is, as a measurement for truth, regarding beliefs and how we interpret evidence. I'm much more confident with my intuition, when it's used to establish truth for situations that are directly related to our survival. Whether or not we think that we have a grasp on existential questions, has little bearing on our survival. If you think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs; I have more trust in my intuition for the bottom of the pyramid, the survival needs, but less confident the higher I ascend up the pyramid. At the top of Maslow's pyramid, I'm very skeptical of my intuitions. The truth behind meaning, purpose, self-actualization, and 'spirituality' has little bearing on my ability to survive or procreate. Don't get me wrong, these beliefs can absolutely aid in survival but the truth of these beliefs are not factored into the survival equation. For example, If I have a religious belief that helps me connect with my community, and also provides me with a sense of meaning and purpose; Which also might offer hope for an afterlife.... This belief need not be true to provide us with a survival advantage. However, if I have beliefs about how to survive in the natural world, these beliefs should be reasonably accurate, or I probably won't live long enough to pass on my "intuition", regarding those beliefs.

[@tex959]

Christopher Nolan's film, Memento, is a perfect example of what I'm referring to. kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4HRgqpvdtKdrJY Plato talked about the same concept when he wrote about the allegory of the cave. Academically speaking, this has a lot to do with epistemology and psychology.

[@Bolden47]

Great pod but Need a more aesthetic thumbnail 👌🏽

[@LivBoeree]

what would you recommend?

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

I'm gonna watch this freaky Dutch horror movie called Moloch. I'll have nightmares, and it's Liv's fault, because she always mentions Moloch so now I'm curious.

[@glenliesegang233]

1:10:53 Slartibartfast?

[@nikitashutkov1804]

❤

[@skaterdude14b]

I really wanted to know the substances. bummer

[@squatch545]

I watched this video on acid.

[@CrystalCloudPodcast]

Haha yeah trying to prove and explain this phenomenon to people never quite pans out, eh. 😘

[@j0hnsn0w16]

First

[@skaterdude14b]

37:19

[@Baskerville22]

"She's very intelligent.....but decided to take 'acid' " I think there's a contradiction there.

[@SadSocks]

I don't know man

[@glenliesegang233]

1:11:50 evolution mandates evil.

[@bermo7559]

53

[@SpareKingdom]

More heart. Less intellect. ❤️🖖

[@marcosadelino6990]

There's cognitive surplus here

[@gideontertius6266]

Needs Jesus!!!!

[@tex959]

Jesus needs a new PR team because his current public relations team, typically don't amount to much more than grifters with eternal threats of torture. 🤷

[@gideontertius6266]

@@tex959 Agreed. Although there is no need for a PR team to relate to an ideal or to reality, that would be devasting 😐

[@tex959]

@@gideontertius6266 True , but Jesus commanded that his followers spread the word, when he was probably better off being less 'hidden.'

[@gideontertius6266]

@@tex959 that is a great point, perhaps I need more of Jesus as well

[@tex959]

@@gideontertius6266 I didn't expect this conversation to go this well 😂

[@cruzilla6265]

C'mon, what drugs was she on?

[@Prometheus_43]

Tldr: Liv has nioce, long, protracted friendly, chat with her friend about everything and nothing all at once!. Oh yeah, and Cate finds god while off her head on acid!