CATELYN STARK is NOT terrible | Therapist breaks down psychology

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Use the code TREE for 40% off World Anvil with the link worldanvil.com/?c=mltt Or else try it out for free!!

[@misabelrodriguez1163]

Thank you so much for this!!! Please do more ASOIAF videos! ❤❤❤ Brienne and Dany maybe? 🙏🙏

[@filbertrocko]

Came across your by a suggestion love your stuff

[@Ouchthathurt843]

I love that you used the Samurai Champloo soundtrack.

[@MsTinkerbelle87]

Your intro is so calming! Feel better!🎈💐

[@noragriffin6432]

I believe Ned had one person he could have trusted when it came to Jon. And that one person was Catelyn. Ned surely would have told her how much their youngest daughter Arya reminded him of his only sister. Had Ned trusted Catelyn she would have taken that secret to her grave. Then the whole dynamic between Catelyn and Jon would have been different. I blame Ned for that. But like you said this is a story of fiction, and one of the best ever written.

[@SetrinSkyheart]

The biggest thing I always get when reading Cat's chapters is that she's perfectly capable of understanding the greater political situation around her. However, she spends pretty much the entirety of the series grieving and fearful of more bad things happening to her family. She's not incapable of considering the bigger picture- she just doesn't CARE about it. The direct safety and well being of her family is more important; she wants out of the Game of Thrones and leave the rest up to everyone else whose jobs it is to actually worry about it. When that context is considered basically everything she does makes a lot more sense.

[@mierin802]

To be fair. She has spent her whole life pretty far out of the center of politics. Winterfell seems to be run by different rules than the rest of Westeros. A place where duty is held in high regard and a leader swings their own sword. Her actions make a lot of sense if you consider that to a certain degree she sees herself as her father's only son. So she tries to make moves as she thinks a man/leader would, but doesn't really understand the deeper currents due to not actually being raised as a son. If it had been Ned in her place he likely wouldn't have made the same choices because he would have been more knowledgeable of the possible repercussions.

[@realSimoneCherie]

Enneagram 6 duh

[@lizstolte2634]

She is SO smart. All her chapters show her predicting things that are going to happen or being rightfully suspicious about something. You could read just her chapters and get so much foreshadowing for the whole series

[@BananLord]

​@@mierin802 Ned wouldn't have made things better, he's the first Stark to die and not because of a bad streak of events like Robb, but because he chose to make enemies out of the queen in the most dumbest ways without considering further actions and planning. He's less politically inclined than you believe.

[@mierin802]

@@BananLord I agree. I certainly didn't say he would do all the right things. He has also spent too much time in the North. My only point is that he would have reacted differently to Cat, as he tends to be far more cautious and experienced. Yes he was the first to die, because of a child's whim and before the war even really started. He is also an experienced General, and if it had been him at Robb's side instead of Cat, he would have (no doubt) urged Robb to put aside the girl he impregnated and to marry the Frey girl as was his Duty, and been less easy to push aside in his guidance. He would have also likely seen the trap way sooner than Cat did. Especially since he would have been more knowledgeable of both the Freys and the Boltons. Likely things would have worked out very differently. In no way am I saying Cat is unintelligent, just that she makes decisions that a more experienced statesman (even one from the North) wouldn't have made.

[@jmace2424]

“Catelyn Tully is the worst person to have ever lived.” *Craster, Gregor, Walder Frey, and Roose and Ramsay Bolton have entered the chat*

[@changingmind2522]

Right? Don’t understand how people hate her more than those other sickos. I once saw someone say they hate Sansa more than Ramsay. Not sure what these people are on, but they need to get off of it. Their common sense is deteriorating.

[@Bingo4651]

@@changingmind2522 i hate to be that guy, but people who say that are just misogynistic. That is literally the only reason i can think of as to why they hate an innocent teenage girl over someone who literally hunts people for sport. And any other "reason" these people seem to give is "she doesnt do anything" and frankly, i dont ever think thats a good enough reason to hate any character.

[@youngnat]

@@Bingo4651 Agreed to an extent. You can dislike a character simply for the character itself or how they’re written. I dislike Dany chapters but I don’t dislike Dany for example. I dislike certain characters because of where they’re chapters are located and so on.

[@changingmind2522]

@@Bingo4651 I’m glad you said that because I don’t like throwing around the word ‘misogynistic’ like it’s nothing, but it definitely comes to mind when I hear people say these things. It just doesn’t make sense to me. I know men most the time won’t relate to female characters as much as women (like myself) would, but I still can’t understand the hatred.

[@iamcsxii4043]

@@Bingo4651 I just find Sansa (show Sansa particularly in the later seasons) to be absolutely insufferable to watch on screen. Some of y’all take this too seriously, these are fictional people 😭 obviously people like Joffrey and Ramsey are evil people, but they’re fiction. And they’re created to be in contrast to our protagonists. You’re supposed to like them enough to enjoy seeing them on screen or in the pages, otherwise how will you be invested when they eventually lose? 💀Obviously if these were real people, people wouldn’t like them. Don’t think too deeply into it, lol.

[@Druzica18]

OMG thank you for pointing out Edmure's kindness. I HATE that the show didn't embrace that, Tobias Menzies would have performed it beautifully, I'm sure.

[@MotherOf-Ferrets]

I think the show really did Edmure a disservice

[@gingerbell07]

The show did every character a disservice tbh.

[@Druzica18]

@@gingerbell07 I completely agree!

[@X525Crossfire]

While I more or less agree that the show did Edmure, and tied to that the Blackfish, dirty, that "act of kindness" by Edmure bringing all those smallfolk into Riverrun ahead of a potential siege *is* a massively stupid move on his part; and that was only one of the strategically inept moves he made, not even counting his ruining Robb's plan for dealing with Tywin in the westerlands.

[@Druzica18]

@@X525Crossfire Oh yeah. it was probably the most impractical thing he could've done. 'Stupid'....yeah okay, that's harsh but true. My point was that, from a PR perspective, this makes him look great to all the smallfolk. People who will eventually become soldiers willing to fight and die in his service.

[@JMTgpro]

On the reason why Bran is "her favorite", in my opinion, it stems from the idea that he is her first child "free" of expectations or role. Robb as heir, maybe he felt more of Ned than hers, more of a duty than a real child after all, it wasn't until Robb snapped about her vigil with Bran that he began to realize Robb is still a child. Being a similar circumstance with Sansa, with her, she presents her more as a "lady" than a girl. She has socially high expectations to meet, which she does not seem to be able to reconcile. Bran on the other hand, like the second son, lacks great expectations, and so it could be said that he is "completely hers". Even Arya leaning more Stark than Tully, could be seen as more of Ned than her. But I think it has to do with this idea. Bran is her favorite because she is the first child that really is hers, who is not immersed in social role, family duty or other circumstance that makes her "distance".

[@geriwiri1901]

so funny i literally wrote what u wrote a few minutes ago before scrolling through the comments. completly agree obviously! 😂😅

[@svetozarbubalo230]

Definitely not as important but maybe still worth a thought, Bran, for the longest time, had been her youngest child. After Bran, around four years would pass before Rickon would be born.

[@simmingsammi]

To be fair to Cat we don’t really know her Bran. We think of Bran as handicap kid that wargs into animals and Hodor.

[@AWinterLullaby]

I don't think Arya leaning more Stark than Tully is a factor. Clearly, Catelyn wants her children to resemble their father since she resents Jon for looking more like a Stark than they do. I think with Sansa and Arya, Catelyn is very aware that their destiny is to be married off in some far away kingdom and she might not see them again once they come of age (similarly to what happened to her and Lysa). Like Robb, she knows she has to let them go eventually.

[@Otsego]

​@AWinterLullaby I think this goes beyond more than looks. Arya has "the wolf's blood". She stands in opposition to what her duties are supposed to be, the anti-Cat. She wouldn't lover her less but it strains the relationship and creates a different dynamic. It would only add to Bran being the baby boy. He's only 7 when this all happens.

[@FabalociousDee]

41:14 Notice here that not once does she talk about herself. Even in her final moments, all she can think about are her babies and her husband. Heartbreaking.

[@Kangaroojack1986]

Cersei also loves her children and would do anything for them. So this doesn't mean much

[@grasstastesbad]

⁠@@Kangaroojack1986 it kinda does, since that’s about the only redeemable thing about cersei

[@bonanzatv3424]

​@@Kangaroojack1986not really loving. More seeing them as a extention of herself in a narcissistic manner. She loves them because they are perfect, because if they weren't perfect, she wouldn't be and that couldn't be right because she has the birth right to the throne besides of the fact that she is a woman which is also why she acts through Jamie.

[@HariKrishnan-kx1is]

Cat's last thoughts in the Red Wedding chapter are all you need to recognise what she really valued the most. She thinks about Ned and all her children, not power or ambition or making Sansa the queen. Cat is the perfect mother archetype for modern times. A flawed person who does everything she can to do the best for her husband and children, in spite of her her own faults and prejudices. She might make a lot of mistakes but that doesn't make her evil.

[@7PlayingWithFire7]

Cat is definitely not evil, but beyond stupid. Her idea to secure the safety of her daughters was to release the only hostage she has that guarantees her children safety, based on trust to a man who literally crippled her son. She is why the red wedding happened, not Robb. That is why people hate her. And that is completely understandable. HOWEVER I will not pretend that there isn't a huge amount of misogyny that causes that hatred - Same towards Sansa. Everyone loves Arya because she presents herself as a boy, and adheres more to masculine tropes than feminine tropes. You could argue that the reason most people are so angry at her is because she betrayed their side. But with that logic Theon should be more hated. But he's not, because misogyny.

[@owenleal]

​​​@@7PlayingWithFire7 no, Robb is the reason the Red Wedding happened. Catelyn letting Jaime go had nothing to do with Robb betraying the Freys to marry Talisa. But yes, you are right that alot of the hate Cat gets is due to typical fandom inceldry. You see it all the time, Skyler from Breaking Bad, most of the female characters in Peaky Blinders, Amber from Invincible, Syd from The Bear, if there is a female character present in the show, best believe the fandom is waiting for her to slip up and do something flawed so that they can call her a slag. And if she doesnt do anything wrong, then they might just say "fuck it, we hate her anyway" and call her a Mary Sue. Male characters will rack up a laundry list of transgressions, which the fans will be able to treat with appropriate context and nuance, but it will only take one or two fuck ups and that will be it for a female character. They will never let that shit go. Thats why I always take criticisms of female characters with a grain of salt. Cat did a lot of stupid and short sighted things, but that didnt make her a bad or evil person and it also doesnt make her the sole reason at all that the Starks lost.

[@lawv804]

The way she treated Jon Snow was evil.

[@marmar23.]

I've always thought that reason Cat dislikes Jon, not just has admittedly founded worries about the political implications of his raising at Winterfell, but genuinely dislikes him is because she's projecting any remaining insecurities she harbors about her marriage onto him. Even though the marriage started as a political arrangement and not a love match on both sides, Cat has stated that the love grew. And the logical part of her really does believe that Ned has grown to love her just as she grew to love him. However, being that it is thought by all, Cat included, that Ned is Jon's father (the show stated otherwise, but the books have yet to confirm his true parentage if I remember correctly), it can be said that Ned's treatment of Jon is proof positive of the love he felt, maybe even still feels towards Jon's mother. On top of the fact that he refuses to name the mother still, and I believe in the books Cat says the one time she was ever afraid of Ned is how he reacted when she tried to ask, I think that Cat still harbors a bit of doubt and resentment towards Ned. And being that she's such a dutiful person and does genuinely love him, she can't express those feelings towards Ned. Instead her only outlet is her coldness towards Jon. Not that it should be taken out on Jon, I think she should have just confronted Ned about it, but I think that's part of where her resentment and coldness towards Jon comes from.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Absolutely agree and I feel a bit disappointed that I didn't mention more of this in the video, so I'm glad you've commented it

[@JenksAnro]

Yeah I think this might be the most important reason, though tbf I hadn't really thought of the political side of it and the quote about Jon's sons does make that apparent

[@christinestreeter8566]

Omg yes! I just commented the same thing although not as articulately as you did! I’ve always felt that was the main problem. Her ego was seriously bruised by the perceived notion that Ned had some deep love for Jons mother just like anyones ego would be bruised. That’s why she was so resentful of Jon. 100% agree!

[@Li_Tobler]

YEs finally someone gets it! She's not just vile to be vile like a comical one-dimensional evil-stepmom trope, she has a valid reason (even though I of course condone the way she treated Jon, and would love to think that I would be the bigger person if I was in her shoes, but in reality... I just sincerely don't know if I 100% would). I love Ned but he's also to blame here. He shouldn't have kept Katelyn in the dark about this ALL these years, even after their love and trust for each other grew.

[@cockycookie1]

Which is exactly what makes her a bad person. Projecting your issues on others and making them suffer for it is absolutely disgusting behaviour

[@ErasMcras]

I'm unsure how you can call cat the worst person ever when she shares her world with multiple dictators.

[@VerbenaComfrey]

And serial rapists and torturers.

[@imtired3861]

Because catelyn is an emotional woman who made a few poor decisions. People love to villainise emotional women.

[@raaaaaaaaaam496]

@@imtired3861nah I think it’s more that 1) contrarianism 2) a lot of people have a lot more familiarity with mothers that they don’t like than they do dictators

[@annavafeiadou4420]

I ve seen the video that calls her "the worst" and I commented there too that it baffles me how someone can see as the worst a normal woman who sometimes has poor judgement and petty feelings or jealousy when in the same books have numerous absolute sociopaths like Ramsay the mountain Euron etc .... if she is the worst it means she is like worse than ramsay ? I mean seriously who can say that while keeping a straight face

[@annavafeiadou4420]

@@raaaaaaaaaam496 those reasons especially the one with mothers sounds very convincing

[@yensid4294]

When I read Catelyn's pov chapters I got a sense of her being consumed by anxiety/fear & grief which made her a very reactive not proactive person.

[@svetozarbubalo230]

An important aspect I feel gets lost amidst the pages is that Catelyn looses her sanity PRIOR TO dying. After what to her mind is her only living child left, Robb, is killed before her eyes, you literally have her crying and screaming, tearing her own face to shreds and then laughing as the blood drips own her hands and forearms (which is an image I personally don't think will ever leave me). Aside from the flesh-sloughing-being-dead-for-three-days aspect of Lady Stoneheart's appearance (and maybe the greyness of what is left of her hair), everything else looks what it has ALREADY looked like prior to her death.

[@bookswithike3256]

You were actually correct the first time about what Lysa's son was called. He's Robyn in the show, but in the books he's Robert, nicknamed Sweetrobin. They changed his name to avoid confusion in the audience. (This is also why they changed Asha Greyjoy's name to Yara, to avoid the audience confusing her with Osha).

[@mylittlethoughttree]

That explains how even I got confused then 😆 thanks!

[@ko-miyavi]

One thing I always contemplate about Catelyn is the mental abuse she must've suffered since coming to Winterfell. Her betrothed and FIL die in a fire, her new husband isn't the most affectionate of men, he rides off to war leaving her with a baby, then she has to travel to a cold cold land where her Gods do not reside, only to find another woman's baby in her son's nursery. And here's the real kicker, Her husband puts more RESPECT on the name of the bastard's mother than his own wife. He goes around letting people know this is boy is his illegitimate son (which is a VERY bad look on both Ned and Cat) and the moment he hears people spreading rumors about who the mother might be it is SILENCED in that same night. And this isn't like now-a-days where if your husband pulled this shit and you can run off with your kids to live with your mother or separate for some time, Catelyn AS A DUTIFUL WIFE, has to support Ned's decisions. Ned says the boy stays? The boy stays. She can't take her frustrations out on Ned otherwise he would look weak, letting his wife speak to him in any unrespectful tone or manner. So who does that leave her to take it out on? No, it's not good. No, it's not an excuse. But damn if that were me? In that world? I might walk a path closer to Cersei's idea about bastards at court.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

I wouldn't count the deaths of Brandon and Rickard as emotional abuse when she didn't seem particularly close to either.

[@misskate3815]

⁠@@fightingmedialounge519she was pretty close to Brandon, as far as betrothals go. But it’s more about the trauma of the events than the abuse, which comes from Ned. Ned is shown at his worst, in a very personal way, when it comes to Sansa and Catelyn. He crosses their boundaries in a very careless way and refuses to understand what he’s done, because that would require him acknowledging his own privilege. It’s abusive behaviour. Not to say Ned is the worst person ever, just that he has this obnoxious side.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

@@misskate3815 I also wouldn't call Ned's actions abusive. Inconsiderate sure

[@WhitneyAllisonGG]

My feeling is Jon's mum whoever she might be if she was an average person knowing her name wouldn't have mattered. The woman is dead it doesn't make sense keeping it a secret because she is common person no one cares about her reputation and this applies to most noble women as well. This society women reputations only matter to nobility and that the children will have something to inherit. Jon Snow is son of Ned Stark and a Milk Maid and everyone knows he born wedlock no need to mother's identity a secret. Because no one will care about her or talk about her negatively she is a nobody. If Jon Snow is Lyanna Stark son and yeah there's a need for secrets. 1. Jon Snow could be Rhaegar's. 2. Robert Baretheon desired Lyanna Stark as his wife. Jon joining the Night Watch was his idea not Catelyn. Ned Stark was very much against this. Ned stated that he against this by inheritance. Jon Snow has no inheritance not at Winterfell in Book 1. Uh he is a Snow and he isn't in line for inheritance. So what are you talking about Ned. In fact it is Rob Stark that inherited followed by Bran and Rickon then the girls. Ned Stark why haven't you talked to Jon Snow about his mother. Which is very odd. I can understand why Catelyn doesn't know but Jon. After all Ned supposedly cares about Jon's mother.

[@dhamiprlove17]

Arya is definitely Catelyn writ small. They are both consumed by vengeance and have an almost “masculine” sense of honor and duty as a highborn lady. Catelyn’s childhood nickname is Little Cat and Arya literally wargs into a cat in Braavos. Arya while warged into Nymeria pulls Catelyn’s corpse from the river. There are too many parallels for the characterization of Arya and Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart to be coincidental. Personally, I think that Arya is going to be the one to end Lady Stoneheart and will be the lesson she needs in the dangers of vengeance.

[@seanightshad4670]

I love how someone else noticed this parallel between Cat and Arya. People are so convinced that Sansa's like their mom and Arya's like their dad and I think it's the opposite. Like a vengeance is a staple of Arya's and Cat's story , Honor and fairness is a staple in Sansa's and Ned's story.

[@sydneymoore4319]

​@Sea Nightshad, weirdly enough, I've never made this connection to their mindsets and arcs, and this take changes A LOT for me.

[@seanightshad4670]

@@sydneymoore4319 I've noticed it because of Little Finger. He treats her like her mother and Sansa is more like her father .I also believe it's going to be Little Finger's downfall.

[@peyotebritta]

@@seanightshad4670I’m always trying to tell people this. Ned was also fostered at the *Eyrie* with a *Robert* (Baratheon) and an a (Jon) *Arryn* . Guess who’s currently coming of age in the *Eyrie* , looking much more like Ned with her black hair, along with a *Robert* *Arryn* A lot of people think Myranda Royce is just another fake friend for Sansa but I think that’s too obvious. I could see it ending up developing into alliance like it did for Robert, Ned and Jon. Either way, she’ll be making allies in the wake of the coming wars just like her father. And I think Robin will outlive both Littlefinger and Harry And Arya’s chapter title literally changes to *Cat of the Canals*

[@justineharper3346]

Interesting. I never noticed the parallels between them

[@luiz_paninis]

What’s interesting to me is how the way these characters become caricatures and seen as just a “fool”, or “insane”, “good”, or bad” mimics the way we remember historical figures. Even the Romans were very quick to forget a lot of the nuance behind the actions of people like Nero and Anthony.

[@nidohime6233]

People do tend to flanderizase characters, meme culture is like a joke that everyone laughs at but no one remembers why is funny in the first place.

[@Shenanakins]

Catelyn mostly ignores Jon and the one time she didn't ignore Jon, the infamous "it shouldve been you" line, it was when she was half-mad and grieving her son and its not even like it was only Jon catching strays. Even Maester Luwin, who she loves like a father, was catching strays during this time too. And the moment she snapped out of her grief she regretted all of her behavior leading up to that moment. she understood that byletting grief consume her, she was being a bad wife, bad mother and a bad lady to Winterfell and a bad representative for House Tully and she pulled her shit together.

[@tombullard123]

Also he looks the most like ned, hes a real danger to her kids as the heir of the stark line. Even if Jon would never harm the starks, she cant say the same for his kids. If she starts to accept him and treat him well, that gives him legitimacy and could lead to him being recognised. Its not the nicest thing but completely understandable as someone who loves her family so fiercely

[@c.w.8200]

It's clearly not expected of a noble lady to raise a bastard with her own children in this society and Catelyn is at least tolerating him, look at Cersei's reaction to Robert's bastards, I think most other women in her position would have demanded he leaves the castle at the very least.

[@Shenanakins]

@@c.w.8200 not saying that its her responsibility to raise Jon AT ALL. in her madness, She was being a bad lady to winterfell because she was letting her underaged son Robb run the place and not really caring for Rickon. even though robb is a good ruler he is still just a kid and even he admits to being overwhelmed at the time. he needed his mother too and she was consumed by grief. i completely get catelyns rage. she's its not expected of her and thats why she's so pissed off about everything. this isnt what she was promised her entire life. Especially given how Catelyn was basically raised to be a lord as well as a lady to riverrun. from her perspective she has done more than just be the perfect lady. by every measure Ned hit the jackpot with Catelyn. She is one of the more educated and most beautiful women in the kingdom and ned is the less attractive, less charming middle Stark brother. she did everything to be the perfect wife and her new husband repaid her by humiliating her. Considering what a downgrade from Brandon Ned was the least Ned could do was not bring the child home.

[@doovstoover9703]

Michelle Fairley was absolutely fantastic in that role, she was definitely one of my favourite characters in the show . Catelyn is just so real... she's complex and flawed and has all these competing feelings about love and duty which cause her so much pain, and that's what makes her so relatable. It's so strange to me how viewers/readers will take such a multifaceted character like her and try and apply a "goodie/baddie" label. Like you say, it misses the entire point of the story! And imagine how boring the story would be if everyone just did the morally right and most logical thing all the time.

[@chandrawagner4061]

While Cat was never my favorite, I chalk up a lot of my sympathy for her and the fact I don't hate her to Michelle Fairley. Her acting is what made Cat likable to me.

[@svetozarbubalo230]

I wholeheartedly agree! 🙌 A huge amount of my favourite series scenes have Catelyn in them because Michelle's portrayal manages to make me emotional every single time.

[@larrytinsley4247]

A competent dictator like Tywin is way preferable than her fumbling bumbling nonsense

[@neuralmute]

I loved Michelle Fairley in that role, and even though I'd read the books, her performance in the Red Wedding still shredded my heart into tiny pieces. And I thought that her portrayal of a well-written, believable mother character who would do anything for her children was so spot on that my own ASOIAF-loving mum gladly accepted the nicknames Lady Cat, or Mama Wolf.

[@victoriawhite3662]

Fairly brought a motherly warmth out of the character as well as her high born ideals.❤

[@madelineroberts4693]

They really said Catelyn is the worst when Ramsey exists in the same story 😂😭

[@kaitosevski3881]

And Joffrey. And Craster. And Cersei. And Gregor Clegane. And Tywin. And Roose Bolton. And Walder Frey

[@lavinder11]

Reminds me of HP fans who say Dolores is worse than Voldemort

[@ely_sky]

hearing the way you talk about catelyn makes me wanna hear you do a deepdive on alicent (specifically show alicent) because I find her to be incredibly overhated and actually think shes far more similar to catelyn than to cersei (a common comparison, but one I find lazy. people want her to be an evil stepmother sooooo bad but by this point, all she wants is for her children to be safe, much like catelyn. and I feel way more sympathy for her than most other characters in hotd. not to mention their similar views on duty).

[@mylittlethoughttree]

I did not know people felt that way, she was one of my favourites from HotD

[@anna_caps]

I feel like the hate Catelyn receives is akin to that of other female characters who take on the role of mothers, especially if they are protective of their children, sacrificial and hardened by a tumultuous past that is hardly acknowledged most of the time. It reminds me of Demeter's depictions in Greek Myths and adaptations, but with a greater animosity in modern days, as they are perceived as stifling, overbearing and manipulative. It's quite sad.

[@reesehendricksen269]

Bingo, just like why Skyler is so reviled in Breaking Bad.

[@lorigarry6098]

I hate her for no other reason than taking her frustration and anger out on a blameless child, rather then her supposedly unfaithful husband. Then telling him she wished he would have died, and and essentially condemning him to a punishing life long service and not allowing him to stay at Winterfell. Not because she loves and protects the children she loves.

[@aishah7730]

@@lorigarry6098 she didnt do anything of the sort. she has no obligation to jon and the incident with bran was isolated. catelyn spent jon’s entire upbringing ignoring his existence and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. get over it.

[@perseus3115]

@@aishah7730 nah, i dont think you understand the stuff Cat put Jon through, she didnt ignore him she actively went out of her way to try and manipulate her kids and other people to ostracize Jon, she did talk down to him throughout his whole life and obviously wished him ill multiple times and wanted him gone, the problem with Cat is tbh not her fault entirely, a lot of it stems from her upbringing in many ways, little time with a mother figure, a father who kept her sheltered and indoctrinated by the Faith and viewed her as little more than a tool in practice. She is extremely naive contrary to her paranoia, she involves herself in things she doesnt understand at all, and she sold her children she loves so much for a perceived status and to cross a damn bridge instead of calling out walder frey's bluff. Almost the entire story is hers and Petyrs fault alone.

[@starsofnysar]

@@perseus3115 her kids didnt ostracize jon if that happenned none of the kids would have a relation ship with him, thats blantlatly making up stuff robb and arya were the closest to him and he has memories of playing with the others if Jon was that isolated he'd straight up hate his family which he clearly doesnt, the only thing that was happening was ppl reminded him that he was illegitimate i think ppl blow out of proportions what in fanfics thats why everyone thinks jon was cinderella or something also pretty sure the petyr and the lannisters are more to blame for everything that happenned

[@sydneymoore4319]

Something that always bothers me about the takeaway from other people of Cat is that they cannot get past her view of Jon. Regardless of what WE know SHE doesn't know the truth of Jon's parentage. Her chapters pretty much admit that she isn't surprised Ned slept with someone else, they were strangers when they married and he wasn't sure he was ever going to come home. She near expected the man to stray. However, in the fictional time period we're dealing in here, it's unheard of to bring your bastard children to live in your home if you're a highborn lord. Her noble husband brought another woman's baby home from the war when she was hoping to present him with the one she made. She doesn't know about R + L. All she knows is she was cheated on and now she's expected to raise the representation of that alongside her natural born children like nothing is wrong. In addition to the conflict of Jon potentially rivaling her own children for lordship over Winterfell. Westeros doesn't have much of a concept of step-children. 😅 Is it right? No. I was able to empathize with her while reading. I'm not sure if that makes me a bad person or not. 😂

[@melissaharris3389]

They do have a concept of step children as Lord's remarry after their wives die in childbirth all the time.

[@nidohime6233]

I think people who dislike Catelyn is because they are fond of Jon Snow. I do like Jon Snow too, but many fans tend to forget family dynamics in a clasist society are complex, and you cannot force a step-mother to love her step-son considering her position in a medieval-esque society, where she can be thrown to the streets by her husband if he wants to, and how there is some old resement from things that happend in the past. We as the fans know now, according to GoT version of the story, that Jon is actually Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, but no one in universe until the reveal knew that. Catelyn died believing her own husband Ned cheat on her and kept a bastard and treat him like a legitimate son in the castle for almost 15 years. Can we really blame her for that? Of course her behavior towards him wasn't ok either, but it doesn't came out of nowhere, she is flawed as anyone else in the series.

[@BertoPlease]

So you're basically telling me, that everyone was telling Cat they'd get revenge for her, but no one could, so when she turns into Lady Stoneheart she pulls a Thanos and goes: "Fine, I'll do it myself "? 🧐

[@inelouw]

I wonder if Catelyn is received more positively by people who've been parentified. Reading the books, she was one of my favourite points of view, and I was pretty shocked to see the amount of vitriol directed at her by other fans. But that idea of "acting superior, being full of herself, like she knows better when in fact she's making stupid mistakes" is something that people often feel about others in a parentified role.

[@thurielangel3239]

This made me feel a little called out and psychoanalysed… so I guess you’re probably right 😅

[@S.D._777_]

You make a really good point. My issue with Catelyn isn't the 'high and mighty' air she has. It's the way she treated Jon. While I can understand how she would feel betrayed, I can't understand taking it out on a child. It reminds me of the way I was treated as a child. I'm seeing it more from Jons perspective, and it totally skews my view of her. ETA: It was her "It should've been you" comment to Jon when he was getting to leave Winterfell that sealed it for me. Again though, that was said to me after I barely survived a car wreck that took the lives of 3 people. Seriously, thank you for this comment. It has made me really think. 😁

[@thelateescapist8266]

This is by far the best Catelyn character analysis I've ever seen! So balanced, so articulate, so empathetic. All the arguments are based in the text. All sources sighted. I also appreciate that her circumstances and relationships are used to explain her faults rather than minimize them. And that we are also given an accounting of her virtues as a mother to all her children and as an advisor to Robb. Just an excellent video essay. Well done! 👌🏾

[@jmace2424]

Catelyn lived through a civil war that claimed her fiancé and prospective father-in-law and then had to watch her husband march off to fight against bloodthirsty Vikings and is now having to watch a second civil war start up. That is enough to make anyone anxious.

[@Wolltazar]

And all that while one of her daughters got lost, husband died, father died, two of her sons died, her sister turned crazy and partially evil, her last son would rather have her thousands of miles away..

[@Wolltazar]

Yeah no wonder she let Jaime go to at least have a chance to see her daughter/s again

[@Kangaroojack1986]

On the flip side, she has only known a life of privilege being a Tully. She treats a child like shit because she thinks her husband cheated. She thinks only of herself (letting Jaime go), instead of the bigger picture like her son winning the war. She takes Tyrion hostage right after thinking "we must avoid war at all costs". There's so much more. She is obviously not as vile as others in the world, but by no means is she a good person.

[@r.r815]

​@@Kangaroojack1986 Everyone in this series is selfish, that's kinda the point

[@Kangaroojack1986]

@r.r815 That's one way to spot the "good guys." Ned Stark and Jon Snow are not selfish. The Hound and Jaime start out as self-serving and selfish but grow as characters and start focusing more on helping others/the realm. Brienne and Arya also care about others throughout the series.

[@fadidarwich3176]

People hate Catelyn?!?!?! I felt that she was the most tragic character in the books! All she wanted is her children back!

[@CASantos]

I think Catelyn's character hits different if you're more mature or a parent/guardian. I get why a lot of people don't "get" her, but while I didn't agree with all of her actions, I understood where she was coming from.

[@bannahannana9403]

​@@CASantosI agree. Catelyn's chapters really resonated with me, not because of any experience I have, but because I read the book on my kindle under my parents' amazon account and her chapters were pretty much the only ones my dad had highlighted passages of. Thinking about her from the perspective of a parent reading her made it so much easier to understand her.

[@Canadish]

​@@CASantos I think she infuriates some readers the way a loving mother infuriates their teenage children. She makes mistakes, not through lack of care but from her love and the risk of that being lost. She grips the soap too tight and it slips through her fingers. She puts her family first, but often in an immediate way, rather than a long term or politically and that leads to ruin in the end. It's similar to Ned, but their mindsets are different, Ned takes action that is in service of a higher, abstract idea of good/honor. Cat is, in some sense, very selfish odd as that may sound. She gives everything to her family because her emotions require this, not for some abstract concept or the betterment of the world. I think this is why Ned doesn't evoke the same revulsion despite being very similar. We have their thoughts and we know Ned has a more complex moral axis, and despite his reputation did put this aside at a few wise moments (such as when he took in Jon and lied about fathering a bastard to save an innocent boy).

[@nuzzlevee]

Hii! Just wanted to say, as a paranoid schizophrenic with c-PTSD, who has spent about 2 or so years total in mental hospital, and your demeanor, behavior and general outlook truly represents the best of this field, and makes me so happy and hopeful that lots of people can be met with understanding and patience, keep it up! You're so gentle and thoughtful and so, a very inspiring therapist. Thank you.

[@vivvy_0]

very cute eevee icon!

[@nuzzlevee]

Thank you!

[@WatashiMachineFullCycle]

Also, wow! I agree with you that the show did Edmure a massive disservice, but your rant about how sweet and kind he really is hit pretty hard. He really is one of the most considerate lords out there so far as his commonfolk are concerned. Idk how I came across this channel but I'm glad I found it this is fantastic stuff!!

[@valtr__]

All the hate Catelyn gets is undeserved. I also used to not like her but she’s genuinely a good person and after re reading the books she’s become one of my favorite characters

[@MaynardCrow]

Re read again. Her POV chapters show a passive aggressive narcissist.

[@bonbonvegabon]

@@MaynardCrow I disagree

[@enotsnavdier6867]

I didn't even know that people dislike her

[@MaynardCrow]

@@bonbonvegabon To each their own. Interpretation of fiction isn't an exact science with a single correct answer. A lot of readers sympathize with her and a lot of us see her as a destructive and self-absorbed force of nature.

[@aishah7730]

@@MaynardCrow catelyn stark is mant things 😂 passive aggressive ill give u but narcissist? she spends all her page time prioritising her children over herself and her own desires.

[@tsuritsa3105]

I would love to see a video about Theon. I have always felt he occupies an extremely complex position in the story, and while I can't excuse the things he did as a result, I think there's a lot to the psychology of long-term imprisonment and then unreasonable expectations from a family he barely recalls. I find Theon to be incredibly tragic. I wonder if - in the *books* - Lady Stoneheart might end up giving her unlife to resurrect Jon. I know everyone expects Melisandre to do it, and that makes a good deal of sense, but if somehow Stoneheart were to be the one to do it, it would, in a way, belatedly make her Jon's mother. I wonder if she might realize that she has treated Jon badly - which doesn't make her the WORST person in the world, ffs, but isn't alright anyway. I don't expect a redemption for her here, but I *do* think it would be interesting if she somehow was the one who brought Jon back into the world. I don't expect this, by any means, I just think it would be *interesting*. I always thought we had to look at Catelyn's fears of Jon being legitimized in the context of the history of the Blackfyres. I mean, she makes that point and it's a good one on the politics. WE might know that's not what Jon wants, but Catelyn doesn't know that. She doesn't know Jon; she never let herself know him because of these fears. Catelyn is not my favorite person. I think she suffers from some serious lapses in judgment. I think she has an overblown sense of her *rightness* sometimes. But the worst person in the world? Not a chance. Sometimes, though, I think Catelyn gets more dislike than maybe she earns because people have the sense that it'd be more *fun* to follow, say, Robb, or the Blackfish, and they miss Martin's point in focusing on that element of the story *from* Catelyn's POV. I want to add one more thing - and far be it for me to defend Catelyn too much, but...*ambition* in a woman is not a crime. I think the analysis here about her reasons for wanting Ned to become Hand make sense, however if her only reason had been plain ambition...so *what*? Ned's an adult; if he sees nothing of value in it other than ambitions HE doesn't want, he can say NO. If she's ambitious for her children, so what? That doesn't make her a monster. Ambition is not a sin. What a person does for that ambition is what matters, and Catelyn, for all that I don't care for her, doesn't sell people out for a desire for position, privilege or even prosperity. I think Ned never planned to tell anyone who Jon was. I think Ned thought that it was better if the Targaryen name died in Westeros. And after all, three people can keep a secret if two are in their graves.

[@Lgrftgf]

I so want the second red wedding and robb being rescurrectes to be true but that would be such a nice outcome and gives catelyn haters even less things to back up their hate

[@bonbonvegabon]

Agreed. Theon is my favourite character. Why didnt he win an Emmy for his acting?

[@sparksfly6149]

Certainly!

[@TheMonkeygoneape]

@@bonbonvegabon no fault to him, but he was also in a series with other heavy hitters like Peter Dinklage and Charles Dance

[@901stinababy]

I don’t see this mentioned a lot but there’s a war (Blackfyre Rebellions) that could help understand Cats not completely unfounded fear of Jon and the threat he is to her children. If he were to have children they could also be a threat.

[@destinyhntr]

I liked that Cat very clearly cared about people (even the poor people) with her internal dialogue about each person she meets. SHe'll think about THEIR backstories in relation to her own, unlike how most other characters just look at their outward appearance or flaws. One that stuck out to me was this innkeeper lady who she grew up seeing. The woman is described by her kind actions and creepy red mouth because she chews something to make it that way. This made it hit so much harder when we see her next through Tyrion's point of view, strung up and dead. It made me care about this random woman who isn't important and contributes nothing. While most of these wealthy lords and ladies only think about themselves, Catelyn reminds us through her POV that the farmers and shopkeepers have entire lives they've lived and the wore has stripped that from them.

[@geekexmachina]

The other thing to remember is the characters have much less information and reliable information than the reader. some of the information may take weeks to get to characters rather than 2 pages so peicing what you know together is like revising for an exam 3 weeks before taking it then not having access to revising in between. Also as you said there are so many cogs turning that its hard to not get blind sided by unexpected events its very good at showing the lack of control the characters have, Its very greek trajedy

[@melissaharris3389]

Yah. Lots I people don't seem to get the GRRM is often going for dramatic irony. Purposefully having the reader know something the charater(s) don't so we can internally wince and be left in suspense of what will happen.

[@lycanwhisper2724]

My son at age 18, told me he didn't think he wouldnt see 21. He told my father the same thing during his gpaw shed building weekend. He died February 2010, in a car accident heading home from work. He would have been 21 that following July. My heart was forever changed that day. Listen to your children, sometimes there is wisdom beyond their years in their words.

[@bundibird3213]

I don't think it's necessarily that Bran was her favourite, so much as a combination of other factors. The nature of a girl/woman's life in Westeros is that she eventually marries and moves away from her family, so Arya and Sansa going south was not only something she was mentally more prepared for (she'd have known from their birth that they would one day move away from home) but also they were likely to be safe by virtue of being nobleborn females (which didn't turn out to be remotely true of course but she would have assumed that the combo of their gender and their status would protect them quite well), and also going south was an opportunity for the girls to become versed in southern culture and meet a southern match, which Catelyn likely desired for them. She acclimated well to the north herself but she likely wanted her daughters to marry rich in the south, bc the south is undoubtedly an easier and more enjoyable life than the harsh North. So you've got Ned, who can look after himself (or so she would assume); Sansa and Arya, who would be safe AND this is a great opportunity for them; and then Bran, whi was sooo young still, and also, if training to become a knight, would have been at risk of winding up in dangerous situations at some point in his life. She didn't need to worry about Robb or Rickon going south, bc Robb was the acting lord of winterfell and Rikon far too young to be separated from her, but Bran was old enough to go south but young enough that thinking of his future of being knighted and joining battles and etc would stress her out. PLUS, she would never deprive the girls of the opportunities that the south provided, but Bran didn't NEED to go south to have good opportunities, the way she felt the girls needed to. The north doesn't care about knighthoods, so not being a knight wouldn't damage his standing at all, and he could have been made the founder of a cadet branch. He didn't need the south as much as she perceived the girls to need it. So all that combined, and I reckon that's why she wanted Bran to stay. Not bc he was her fav, but because he was still so young and he didn't need the opportunities of the south the way she believed the girls did.

[@alexx5064]

Well done; I really appreciate your nuanced take on Catelyn, it’s not just black and white. GRRM is not the writer of flat, one note characters, he doesn’t write pure evil or pure good people.

[@chanoy._v8758]

36:44 Bran shares the same name as Catlyn’s first fiancé, Ned’s older brother. He’s also the fist SON that was produced when Cat and Ned are on good terms and know each other. They had Sansa but she’s still just a girl. She was also telling him to stop climbing and his fall was the official start of things going back. I still can’t wrap my head around her easily abandoning Rickon, I toddler, so easily.

[@melissaharris3389]

It's because Rickon is a toddler. He doesn't yet have a personality for Catelyn to connect with. Catelyn isn't a 21st-century mom. She's a medieval(ish) lady. She is the Lady of Winterfell, which would be a large job in logistics and organization all on its own. She has wet nurses, the medieval equivalent of nannies, to care for her children and a measter to educate them. She even brings a Septa to act as a governess. There are weapons masters to train the boys. The actual role of primary child care wasn't done by noblewomen. Her job as a mother in this society is to ensure her children's positions by making good marriages and using her own political connections in their favor. She loves her children but how we express love is very socially constructed.

[@lanzinator4734]

Great video. A lot of the the older channels who were big back when the show was still on are deeply problematic and I'm glad to see a lot of these narratives get revisited by channels such as yours.

[@hgman3920]

If you think about it, both Catelyn and Cersiei are motivated by the fear that something bed will happen to their children. The difference between the two is how they choose to act on this fear

[@IchibanOjousama]

Cersei doesn't care for her children, just her status

[@slipstreamxr3763]

The difference is that Catelyn is genuinely afraid for her children's well-being. Whereas Ceresi's obsession with her children is tied into Maggy the Frog's prophecy about Ceresi's death. Ceresi only cares about her childrens' safety in regards to her own survival and wellbeing. Where Catelyn was always fully willing to die for her children in order to insure their survival. She went immediately up against the catspaw with no weapons in order to protect Bran, Cersi would've never acted as instinctively like that. Ceresi's love comes from selfishness, where Catelyn's love is motivated by selflessness.

[@raylast3873]

The Battle of the Fords thing is totally on Robb, in my book. Edmure doesn‘t know what the plan is, he doesn‘t know Robb wants the Lannisters to get through to essentially trap them on the wrong side of a strategic barrier and be left chasing him. That‘s a good plan, but also risky and counterintuitive to ordinary military reasoning. Edmure‘s reasoning in denying the crossing to Tywin‘s forces is entirely sound: Robb is attacking Tywin‘s own Land, Tywin is moving his forces to engage him to stop what Robb is doing; hindering Tywin from doing so is the most logical way to help Robb. Nobody told Edmure directly not to contest the crossing. He is only told to hold RIverrun, which can be interpreted as both either a precise instruction or a minimal expectation. Edmure doesn‘t and can‘t know. And incidentally neither does Catelyn, who has doubts about Edmure‘s plan but only on the basis of it being risky, not a potential strategic misstep. You can‘t expect your subordinates to just automatically understand your plan. That doesn‘t work. Robert E. Lee repeatedly made a similar mistake, giving out vague instructions and then thinking his new Corps Commanders would just know what to do. „Maybe also take the hill if you can“ is a different instruction from „definitely take the hill, we need the hill, take it ASAP“.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Yeah that's a really good point!

[@melissaharris3389]

Rob is a good strategist but a bad communicator.

[@raylast3873]

@@melissaharris3389 maybe but it‘s also not just about communication, but about predicting what other ppl will do. It‘s also possible that he and Brynden really didn‘t think the whole thing through and/or were not themselves decisive about wanting Tywin to get through. Either they weren‘t decisive enough about their own plan, or they didn‘t think Edmure could actually stop Tywin; maybe they also assumed Tywin would push harder. That one is quite possible, actually: Tywin abandons his push after finding out about Stannis‘ attack, something Robb and Brynden don‘t see coming. They probably assumed that Tywin really, *really* wants to pursue Robb, and would therefore keep trying and succeed in forcing a crossing, sooner or later. They probably didn‘t consider that it may be necessary to make it as easy as possible to make sure he definitely walks into their trap, and then when Tywin changes tacks after Edmure challenges him, they get pissed that their plan didn‘t work because their own assumptions about Tywin turned out to be wrong.

[@Somethingclever11111]

On a side note I feel there's a certain irony that Catelyn either is genuinely unaware of the fact or and far more likely if you ask me just can't accept that not only does Jon look like Ned the most he also acts like Ned the most. I do think a part of her is bitter on that note too.

[@aishah7730]

jon is not the most like ned imo. sansa is.

[@lisaseatle4965]

It’s interesting that Ned didn’t trust his own wife with Jon’s true identity. Would have made everyone’s lives easier. I suppose her disdain of Jon really sold the story.

[@lisaseatle4965]

@@aishah7730 disagree. She betrayed Jon pretty quickly by revealing who he was after swearing she’d keep his secret. I think Jon is most honorable and brave like Ned

[@aishah7730]

@@lisaseatle4965 we’re talking about the books. the show is complete bs

[@arielsteinsaltz1956]

@@aishah7730 Sansa and Jon are like Ned, Arya and Bran are like Cat, and Robb is a pretty even mix (Rickon is just a feral forest child who communes with the unicorns).

[@schizoidahole]

My favorite theory about Lady Stoneheart’s fate (and my favorite theory in all of ASOIAF) is that Arya will give her the gift of mercy.

[@VelkanKiador]

Also if I had to guess why Ned didn't tell Catelyn I think the answer is pretty simple. You said it yourself really, Catelyn worries about the possible misfortunes that could befall her family just all the god damn time. She worries, she worries alot, she worries too much. She can't bring herself to allow herself to relax and just take a moment to enjoy small victories, as all she can think of is how this could all be taken away in a instant. And she is like that before things get messy. Would Catelyn accept Jon more if she knew the truth? Probably not, but maybe. But one thing is certain, and that is that Catelyn would be living under stress and fear for as long as Jon is there, constantly worrying about the consequences of harboring the Mad Kings grandchild while the kingdom is ruled by someone who detests Targaryens. And yeah by the point Ned arrived to Winterfell he hadn't known Catelyn well enough to know she is like this, but he didn't know Catelyn at all. So he probably kept Jon's parentage a secret while he was figuring out Cat's deal, and while he probably figured out that Catelyn was trustworthy enough that he could share it, he probably also figured out Catelyn is the kind of person who would stress the fuck out about this. Though by the time Jon left for the wall Ned should have absolutely shared, he is beyond Roberts reach by then even if they find out.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Eh, telling catelyn at that point arguably would have made things much worse than they played out in the actual story.

[@yusufraage8554]

Cat would throw Jon under the bus the first sign of her sweet children were in danger.

[@bonbonvegabon]

This was a good analysis. I would love to see you do a video on Sansa, another GOT character that gets too much undeserved hate like her mother Catelyn.

[@jonahvigilia]

Just diving into this vid, but I recommend Glidus, a GOT channel. He does a review on Catelyn Stark. If I recall correctly, he also provides a great perspective on the character and why she isn't the worst person ever.

[@tonichan89]

👏👏👏 Love him!

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Oh that sounds good! Glad it's not just me that thinks so 😂

[@bonbonvegabon]

@@mylittlethoughttree Catelyn and Theon are my favourite characters. Would love to see you do a video on Theon

[@imtired9395]

If GoT lore was Greek philosophy, Alt Schwift X is Plato, and Glidus is Diogenes.

[@neuralmute]

Glidus is such a voice of reason in the ASOIAF community, as well as being hilarious. Highest recommendations!

[@JenksAnro]

I think Lady Stoneheart's end will be something like, learning that Arya is ok, or that Rickon and or Bran are alive, and possibly (this probably can't be it on its own, but maybe will be an additional thing) learning that Ned is not in fact Jon's father, and Ned remained faithful and loving to her. I think after learning some or all of these truths, her rage, the thing keeping her going (the thing that "lingers" as Qybern puts it) will subside and she will just "die".

[@mylittlethoughttree]

That's a pretty good shout!

[@EleiyaUmei]

Finally someone who doesn't hate Catelyn! As an AFAB person and first-born sibling with depression and anxiety, I could relate to Cat even back when I was a teenager (despite never particularly liking her).

[@12SickOne34]

Complexity. A good keyword. The way I see it, many people fail to see the complexity in Catelyn Stark's character, her decisions, and the circumstances that lead to her failure. Cate is a beautifully written tragic character who makes both good and bad decisions based on the best of ambitions. And all too often, even the right decisions, for the right reasons, lead to catastrophic results.

[@xavierrodriguez1370]

I think Catlyn was more willing to part with Sansa and Arya than with Bran is simply because she has always known she was bound to part with her daughters. The norm is that girls are married away to lords in far off lands, just as Cat was, and boys stay at home forever. I remember that in chapter in Cat's bedchamber, she thinks about letting her daughters go in her heart, and the truth is, she knew a day would come where they would part for good, be it sooner or later, but she was never prepared to let go of Bran, becuase she always exprected to have him close.

[@MCChibby]

To answer the question about Bran, I always interpreted this as a natural reaction to Bran's very dangerous obsession with climbing, iirc it is mentioned how he has been climbing ever more dangerous things as he grew and resisted any attempt to curb his passion. For the move from restraint to vengeance I saw this more as her having always harboured these feelings but was dutifully playing the voice of reason when everyone else was angry and vengeful, just as she took on the worries of others when everyone was happy, because she fealt someone should be looking at the rest of the picture. She (consciously or not) starts to lean into the anger as rob leans out of it because she no longer feels dutybound to fill the role of reason. I would never have believed anyone considered her stupid or evil if you hadnt shown that video series. It is important as veiwers and readers to understand that characters like Catelyn are working with incomplete information. With one notable exception (Jamie, which was desperation not tactics) all of her mistakes are because of things she had no way of knowing like Peter's plot with Lysa or Rob's full tactical plan. Lastly, while what she does to Jon is not ok, I also cannot be overly judgmental because she has very real reasons and fears that prevent her from loving Jon which is something she acknowledges as a personal fault. Thanks for coming to my TEDtalk, great video as always.

[@ОльгаСергеева-з6х]

I have a theory as to why Bran is her favorite, but it's pure speculation. First, she fulfilled her duty by giving Ned a son (I mean Robb), but at that point she didn't love Ned yet, it wasn't really personal, just this society's expectation. Then, she had a daughter whom she could now teach all the thing she herself had been taught, and share interests, and stuff like that, so it was nice. Then, as time went on, Catelyn started to love Ned and probably wanted to give him one more son (since sons are seen as more valuable to their fathers in this society; it's also backed up by her thinking that she might still have time to give him one more son - not "child", "son" - in the first book). But instead of a boy, Arya was born, becoming Catelyn's least favorite child. So by the time Bran was born, he was probably long awaited, and that's why she loves him so much.

[@jaderrdragonlover764]

That makes a lot of sense actually. Especially as she sees Jon as a threat to Robb's succession in the future. By having that second son, she cements her and Ned's "true born children" as being in a secure place. She is not only obsessed with true born children in her chapter, you can see that also in Sansa's and the other kids comments, but also by the worry of what will the future bring to their family.

[@HeatherHolt]

I could binge your GoT videos for forever. Perfect for when I’m working out or cleaning the house or driving or anytime I have a few moments to pay attention to what I’m listening to. ❤

[@katthunter6561]

This was a great breakdown, I never though of Cat as stupid or sociopathic. She makes decisions with the information she has, and clearly cares deeply about her family. One point to note- that message Lysa sent to Cat was written in code. How can anyone think it's all a conspiracy if it's written in code? Why not just fake Lysa's handwriting instead of going to the trouble of writing a letter in a code no one but you can decipher but then burn it unread by anyone else anyway?

[@Midnitethorn]

If the books ever get finished, and that's a very big IF, I hope that characters like Edmure and other minor names who actually care are the ones who end up taking power. It would be such a poetic Justice for all these main characters who really don't care about the small folk to become irrelevant and finally have the people who do care and are kind on top.

[@BiRios]

Why hate Catelyn when Cersei is right there

[@bigppisha]

I honestly find Catelyn to be really tragic. She's not perfect of course but almost all of GRRM's characters aren't, they're all grey people. I truly do understand Catelyn disliking Jon even if it seems wrong. Catelyn has explicitly stated in the books that she doesn't mind if Ned finds "comforts" on his travels, he's a man and she has no issues with who he sleeps with. What bothers her is that he decided to bring Jon and raise him like a trueborn son in all but name. Put yourself in her shoes, how would you feel if your husband was someone like Ned who held honour above all else, brings home a bastard son to raise and doesn't even tell you who the mother is? That's gotta hurt a lot. It isn't fair how she treats Jon but she has no choice, she doesn't know who the mother was so she can't hate her then instead she hates Jon because to her knowledge, he IS Ned's. She feels angry at Ned too, I'm sure but she doesn't show it or express it because it's her duty to be a good wife. I feel part of her knows too that Jon is not at fault but she truly has no other outlet for this rage so she just plasters all of that onto him.

[@heatherm2388]

I never hated Catelyn Stark, though there were things i disliked about her, but as a mother i understand her constant worry of her children. I mainly disliked how she went to Rob instead of her younger children but i also understood it because he was still a young boy going into war after hearing that his father was murdered and had not been able to grieve it and neither had she, but her youngest children needed her too. I also disliked her treatment of Jon Snow, i understand her thinking but if she would look past her negative thoughts she put upon him she would have seen how much he loved the Stark children. Though, i do wish they would have gone the Lady Stoneheart direction in the show, to let her be the angry and vengeful mother that she was in the books.

[@tombullard123]

Shes one of the most politically savvy characters of asoiaf. What sets her back is also her strength. Her love for her family and friends blinds her to some of what is really happening

[@MayhapsYes]

Edmure really is done dirty in GOT. He is one of true noble lords in Westeros.

[@monio.9444]

The subplot of Catelyn going out there to look for her husband and help him remind me of this theme that repeats in folk tales in many highlander type cultures, in which the man mysteriously disappears in the mountains and his wife has a dream about him being in danger and decides to leave home to look for him.

[@inavderhexo]

If Catelyn was terrible, she would have let jon die as a baby when he had that fever, but no she nursed him back to health and prayed for him. compared to cersei lannister, who literally order a geocide of all Roberts bastards in order to protect her own children's claim to the throne. sigh people are so harsh on Cat. thou she can unnecessarily mean to Jon sometimes for being something that is beyond his control. I still like her character.

[@sit-insforsithis1568]

She literally wished he was crippled she isn’t a saint

[@chrisrubin6445]

thats only in the show

[@kaleanaking5292]

And then she turned around and said she wished Jon was dead when Bran fell and then attacked by the cats paw.

[@neuralmute]

@@kaleanaking5292 Who hasn't said terrible things when they're exhausted, consumed by grief, angry, and lonely? If you've never had a mean slip of the tongue then you aren't human. And as a reference, I watch these videos because I'm a therapist too, and I love seeing another professional's perspective. If you claim a moral high ground here, I'm pretty sure that the truth isn't being told. Which is fine, if that's what you need to feel good about yourself, but there are better ways to work those issues out. Like therapy.

[@kaleanaking5292]

@@neuralmute I may have said terrible things but NEVER to a child and the fact that you as a "therapist" can excuse the fact that she said something that is fundamentally damaging to a developing child makes me question what you do. I've done therapy and I work with children but yet even before I did it, I never was able to take my frustrations out on any child because I knew that they are a child. I've had plenty of exhaustion, grief, anger, and lonliness in my life but yet unlike Catelyn, I never took it out on a child. Also being mistreated by a mother figure during my childhood also made it a lot easier to know how to treat a child and how not to treat a child.

[@tayetrotman]

I do think the context of how she treats Jon is an adequate defence. Is it nice? No. But can everyone here honestly tell me they could love the child of their partner’s affair? I couldn’t. I’d probably divorce, but Cately cannot do that. I don’t see how anybody can expect her to force herself to love him, or even expect that to work

[@breannadeal8610]

Love? No. Understand that they are an adult and that refusing to call a child by their name is hurtful, spiteful, and immature? Yes. I would think that in the vein of "Family. Duty. Honor." she would realize that: 1) Jon is Ned's family and therefore deserving of some respect just based on her values alone. I mean, she still respected Lysa to an extent and that woman is...yikes. I'm pretty sure she even respected Cersei to a degree for the lengths she would go to for her children. 2) Duty. "the binding or obligatory force of something that is morally or legally right." Duty would suggest that as Lady of Winterfell, as a Tully who has duty in her house words, as someone who considers herself a good person, that she should've see the morally right thing to do would be to *warmly* welcome a defenseless and blameless child into her home and treat him no differently than her children. If that is beyond her, it is at least her duty as an adult to act like one and not take her emotions out (passively or not) on a child. Write a diary or something to deal with your feelings. 3) It's not honorable for her to punch down. The honorable thing to do would've been to not be cold to a child who had no control over the circumstances of his birth or the emotional health of Cat and Ned's marriage. Does she have to love him or claim him as her own? No, but was there honor in the way she treated Jon? Nope.

[@CaptainPikeachu]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@breannadeal8610You’re acting like she never treated Jon with any amount of respect. The respect is that she’s just letting him be and willing to share space. She could have very certainly made his life far worse than she did, yet she didn’t. She doesn’t even prevent her own children from liking Jon. She is willing to let them spend time and form relationships. That’s a modicum of respect for him existing in her vicinity even though she doesn’t want that. Also, you claim she didn’t have to love him, and yet you now claim she’s expected to WARMLY welcome him and treat him like her own children, which he isn’t. So you’re saying it is her duty to love him, that she must be forced whether she likes it or not to love him as much as she does her children? That duty compels her to love another woman’s child, her husband’s bastard child, as much as she loves her own? I’m sorry, but the way we somehow expect or force women into having to play nice and be a mother even when they don’t want to be is honestly rooted in a misogynistic expectation. Why should Catelyn warmly welcome something that represents an insult to her? She’s just supposed to endure the insult? Why is the woman expected to endure and be forced into raising someone else’s child that by all logic of their culture and tradition, should be raised somewhere else? You keep trying to paint the situation as Catelyn should just welcome a defenseless blameless child yet willfully ignore the reality that this isn’t just some random orphan but a bastard child that her husband brought home, a child that could very well be a threat to her own. Expecting her to out of duty to treat him like her own is silly. Her duty is to her own children, not another child that could very well be a threat. The reality is that anyone in Catelyn’s shoes would have done as she did. You’re just able to judge her from a safer and modern vantage point without having to consider her position and what Jon means for her marriage and the future of her children in a world where we’ve seen bastards trying to kill their own siblings to seek power.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

@@CaptainPikeachu she really couldn't make his life that much worse without incurring Ned's wrath.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

@@panthornberry technically she didn't raise him.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

@@panthornberry he lived amongst nobles. Meaning the people who directly took care of them were the servants( think of a rich kid with maids and private tutors). Parents can choose to get directly involved. Something ned did for all the kids, and catelyn only did for hers.

[@RikkaP]

A lot to unpack. Thank you very much. Also: I never hated Cat and I think she is intelligent, but like Ned, just bond to fail. I want to add, though, that Minisa was also a Whent, and pretty much all women of house Whent hat problems conceiving or having their children die young. In fact, Catelyns kids had a claim to Harrenhal since they were the last decendens of House Whent (but then Harrenhal was taken, of course). This would make the whole: "Cat is the first child to survive"- thing even worse. Also people (most harshly in "Lyanna was just a teenage girl unable to give consent!") seem to think of a teenager in Westeros of somebody like a high schooler. But (like Lyanna a generation earlier) Catelyn had a fulltime job (we can catch glimpses of it when Robb was giving her the speach for neglecting her duty) as a Lady of Winterfell. That's no just sitting at the high table and overseeing feasts (a much more important job itself then the show realized). It was her job to manage the whole household- and she did it, dutifully. That also gave her social status (I guess that is why Lysa and Edmure resented her both), but also a whole lot of responsibility- much too soon. Edmure did come off as somebody who could not take responsibility, he was the glory hound- because he was a) raised in a society that clearly puts men above women, but his older sister was put above him because she was functioning (and treated) like an adult. b) even though Hoster was disappointed in Brynden, Brynden was also a war hero and very able. So not only took Edmure the back seat to his father (as would be normal), but also his sister and when his father went frail he was not "eased into" responsibility (as Ned tried with his sons, we get it with Bran taken to the execution of the deserter, Cat tried to deny him there because Bran was so young), but he had to take it pretty much all at once (and then again taken away when Brynden came home). Poor Edmure, could not get a break. Still, he is overshadowed by awesomeness and that is a tough cookie to accept. (The only one who ever made that was Kevan.) As for why Bran was her favourite (beside her saying that she loved his personality, because he was so sweet, she connected much more with him there. Not because they were similar, but because he was (happy, carefree etc) what she was not) I think she could allow herself to be attached to him. Robb was always going to be the heir, so he would always have been much more Neds then hers. And the girls would leave her, to be married off into other families. Bran was the first who could be mostly hers. About the letter: It was written in a secret language that Cat and Lysa used as kids, so only she could read it, showing it to anybody would not do. And Lysa was not afraid (even though she claimed that as a reason why she didn't help Cat- she was LFs pawn there. Lysa always did what the love of her life told her to do. And LF wanted to have Ned in KL to destroy him. I am more interested in the other letter Cat burned. The one from LF that reached her just after she went to Winterfell. I would bet a lot on it saying st like: "Don't worry, my love, I will get you out, even if it takes years. Don't answer me, I will take care of everything. You will be rid of your husband and we will be together. Maybe even rule: in Winterfell or Riverrun or even somewhere else. I will be worthy!" But she burned it without opening it- as she felt was her duty.

[@justaburgscousin]

My stepmother always treated me like an outcast. From age 3-18 she looked at me similar to how Cat looked at John Snow. A remnant of a previous woman. My 2 younger sisters that were her children were always treated as the favorites. As a child I resented my stepmother because she would blatantly act like the family didn’t include me. As an adult I have grown to try to put myself in her position, and I noticed she may have been projecting on me because she felt like the real outsider. What is kind of interesting is my relationship with my sisters are a lot like John And his sisters. Crazy how realistic the psychology of a fictional universe can be.

[@DominionSorcerer]

The biggest difference between you and Jon in that case, and arguably much worse for you, is that you weren't even the living and breathing symbol of your father's infidelity. That's what Jon is to her, and I feel like a lot of people forget that.

[@GoldenRose116]

​@@DominionSorcereralso the stepmother was not forced to stay with their dad, Catelyn is

[@melissaharris3389]

You've hit it on the head. Catalyn is the outsider. She's Sourthren and of a different religion than her husband and everyone around her. She has no friends in the North. No Northern ladies attend her. Even her children are, to a degree, separated from her by being Northern born and following the old God's. She tries he best to have Sansa and Arya educated like Sourthren ladies and brings them a Septa as she hopes they'll marry in the South. It doesn't work with Arya, and honestly, I think it causes confusion and identity issues for Sansa that will later be the foundation of her problems.

[@chrisrubin6445]

The Order of the Green Hand are absolutely unhinged fanfic writers

[@Laceylunai]

I think a big part of the immense vitriol aimed at Cat boils down to misogyny.

[@alexx5064]

absolutely agreed

[@yusufraage8554]

Or setting the golden prisoner free for her 2 girls on the promise that the oathbreaker will keep his word.

[@Laceylunai]

@@yusufraage8554 because she’s the only one in this series who made a decision based on limited information that we the reader have, yet she the character did not. Ok. Sure, Jan.

[@firehound1234]

Love these videos! Can you do one on Viserys (Danys brother) I think most people overlook his childhood in the Red Keep and on the run from Robert in exile and who and what his father did. Or one on Aerys II as there are many theories his mental health declined as it did after his kidnapping and such

[@blackbeardtx371]

Awesome! First off, thank you for the hard work on these Ice and Fire videos, they're great! I like your short form content but I like these long form videos even more. I generally listen to these videos multiple times since they are long and sometimes you miss things when listening(I listen on ear buds at work so distractions happen) but just for a few comments on this one so far- I like how you bring the family into the analysis of the characters, Lysa and Edmure are sometimes swept over and even Hoster's raising her in place of her older brothers is insight I hadn't even considered in her motivations. Also giving her a theme of 'grief' fits very well. I remember reading her POV and feeling almost bogged down by her sadness(which I understand is rightfully so, she has lost so much) but it's very grounding and in a way subverts fantasy tropes. Great video though! Thank you!

[@wallybonejengles5595]

If there is anyone who needs therapy its Lady Stoneheart. She's been through a lot.

[@angryowl5972]

I don’t know where this hatred of Catelyn comes from. I guess people hate the one that has had to tow the party line for survival regardless of whether or not they agree with it. People hate the ones grieving even more even if they see reality better through their grief.

[@Ashbrash1998]

Honestly I feel that a lot of the female characters on the show get criticized a LOT more than the males. Not saying they're immune to criticism. For example how people are so quick to call Dany and Rhaenyra the "Mad Queen" being vengeful or brutal. But they never call the Mountain, who had a "mountain" of crimes to pick from he personally did or Tywin Lannister, who drowned a whole group of rebels, women and children by boarding up the mines they were hiding in and filled it with water and don't get me started on the Tysha incident.

[@lorigarry6098]

It's about her abusive treatment of Jon, nothing else. And yes literally ignoring a child his entire life is abuse, whether a Man or a Woman is the one doing it.

[@901stinababy]

In Westeros she has no obligation to Jon with him being a bastard. She’s not his stepmother.

[@a.s.2112]

Deeming Catelyn the worst person ever when she exists in the same universe as Tywin and Cersei Lannister, The Mountain, Walder Frey, Ramsay Bolton??!!?!? Ridiculous

[@gailf1617]

Yes. Catelyn is cool and not loving towards Jon, while she raises him alongside her own children. Meanwhile, Cersei very likely had two of Robert's very young bastards born at Casterly Rock killed, and, after Robert's death, ordered the killing of all of his known bastards in King's Landing (the TV show had Joffrey do this, but in the book, the slaughter was by Cersei's command).

[@christinestreeter8566]

I always felt that Catelyns true problem with Jon was her belief that Ned had a deep love for his mother. Ned was a man of honor and Catelyn knew that. In my opinion I always thought that Cat felt that Ned must have been deeply in love with Jons mother and that wounded her. The fact that Ned brought Jon into their home instead of just financially providing for him, the fact that Ned was so adamant about no one discussing Jons mother, the fact that the one time she brought up Jons mother to Ned he frightened her with his response. I think it was a huge ego blow to her which it would be to anyone. Also bastards in Westeros society are seen as something sinister, less than. That is ingrained into their society. To Cat Jon would be a constant remainder of Neds unfaithfulness, his deep love for his mother and a constant mark of shame on her marriage and her name. On top of all of that her true born kids looked like Tullys (with the exception of Arya). Having Neds bastard son looking more like a Stark than her true born children must have been frustrating for her. Personally Cat isn’t my favorite character, but I can understand the way she feels about certain things and while she isn’t my favorite character I do like her. We’d all like to think we’d treat Jon better in her shoes, but honestly most of us wouldn’t. I think that’s what makes George RR Martin such a great writer he’s able to write people very well. These people think and act like people actually think and act. Real people with complex thoughts and behaviors molded by life experience and societal norms and beliefs.

[@geekexmachina]

Excellent Analysis its easy for people to miss some of the things you mentioned. Martain has said the difficulty he gets with his storytelling is because he behaves like the characters are real and writes according to what they would do rather that plan a destination for the character to become. So actually a psychological analysis should work if he is doing that. So you first question. Bran is a little younger in the book so it is possible that is maybe part of the reluctance, there is also the culture of hostage taking such as with Theon. Bran going to Kingslanding then maybe seen as a hostage situation even if informal to hold Ned to his word. Also my impression of robert and Neds relationship is that even though they are close friends it would take very little in Westeros for an act to be perceived as a slight by others and by Robert, we also see that Cersi has a way to get him to see what she wants, we find this while Ned is the Hand Catelyn is court wise enough to perceive the threat to Bran at his age, the Girls are a different matter because of the differences in the way men and women are treated. It is also possible that being ressurected deprives her of conscious agency and she is following in a zombie like way . Its interesting how these characters become almost like paragons of a specific trait its similar to ancient Gods who embody traits for example Nemesis the Goddess of retribution. in Westeros terms thousands of years later these characters maybe perceived as gods of legends....From a legend point of view Catelyn is almost like Cassandra... illegitimate children in Westeros itt doesnt seem appropriate to disclose Jons mother, it sheilds the Starks from her turning up after Ned is dead and claiming anything as there is no proof. but I think it also makes it less of a reality that she can pretend thatt Jon is no differentt than Theon as a hostage

[@gerganakoleva4137]

It is really interesting why the character of Catelyn manages to gather so much hate, keeping in mind all the awful characters in the book. I think this is due mainly to the movie (and that the book readers have more realistic judgment), since John became very fast the "favourite" and any offence against him suddenly was treated like a war crime. You did amazing job of analyzing her, I would like to add only three things: 1) Catelyn dreading disaster coming into their lives would be also fuelled by what happened with her first betrothed - Ned's brother (actually Ned's whole family). I think there is an underestimation on how that could affect a young 16 year old "almost" bride, since people are generally focused in how that affected Ned. 2) Many of her decisions could have been better, but I noticed that sometimes, even for the wrong reasons, she has the right gut feeling what to do and that in the grand scheme of things she may have set up some very useful things in motion (e.g. releasing Jamie). That said, her intuition fails her miserably couple of times, since she has this "tunnel" vision and cannot put herself into the shoes of others (e.g. her sister, her old friend Littlefinger, ...). But blaming her for all the misfortunes of her family is totally unfair, when you think of it it was such a "series of unfortunate events" for the Starks: Bran spotting the lovers, Ned failing to notice Sansa's state of mind, Joffrey being underestimated by the other Lanisters,... all of those were kind of accidental. 3) As a reader I am wondering why JRR Martin gave the Brotherhood without banners such a dark turn. They were the only one protecting the small folks in the riverlands, or at least trying to. I am also bothered by the idea what a dead person could do/want from life, although Catlyn is considered alive. But how alive: alive people have to manage revenge in between all the other things they need to do to stay alive: does she eat, if her throat is cut? (if not, how can she relate to people that need to have food, that need to consider the coming of the winter and gathering provisions),... does she need warmth?...

[@officialyoungmari]

i really think most of it stems from fans loving jon ive seen ppl who loved dany on episode 7x2 hate her on 7x3 when she met the beloved king of the north and demanded he bend the knee even tho her main storyline no matter what was happening in maureen was that she was gonna come to westeros and take the iron throne. however most are gonna be dishonest and say that they didn’t like it bc she didn’t rule like that in maureen (she did) just like the story the hatred of seemingly good characters are always going to boil down to the characters’ relationship w jon snow or even tyrion

[@gerganakoleva4137]

@@officialyoungmari So true. No one can "wrong" Jon and get away with it. That said many book readers condemn her for releasing Jamie. But as stupid as that was at, it did not affect so much the things that came to be. In the book the Boltons are already betraying them (the Starks), we know that from what Aria saw in Harenhall and I assume the Freys and Lanisters are plotting already the red wedding. Her decision did not affect the future as much as people make it sound.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

​@@gerganakoleva4137 do you mean show instead of movie?

[@gerganakoleva4137]

@@fightingmedialounge519 Yes, I did, the TV show. Especially now, when i am rereading the books and paying more attention, her decisions are not so bad altogether. No one is jumping on Ned, when he refused to act against Cersei right away, which at the end cost him everything.

[@tytybaby06]

I didn’t like Cat for her treatment of Jon but I understand it’s our world view vs that world so I also get it. I really didn’t like her because of the Tyrion thing but you really put it into perspective for me that it was logical if Lysa wasn’t crazy in love with LF. I’ve always criticized Lysa for not helping Cat & Robb, or even her brother & house! She is definitely one of the key reasons they lost so thanks for that. I agree that people want GRRM’s characters to be black & white or “good” or “bad” when he’s said serval times he writes to show the duality to man. & no one is all good or all bad we all make choices some right some wrong some good some bad such is life! You have to do the psychology of Daenerys & Viserys & maybe some HOTD characters like Alicent & Rhaenyra & Daemon!

[@awi1316]

Thank you ❤️💙 KZbin badly needs some positive Catelyn content when there's all this misogynistic nonsense out there

[@Happyheretic2308]

It’s not misogyny as much as a derogatory attitude towards the caring mother, by these Feminista types.

[@keineahnung6184]

I think, Ned never told Cat of Jons mother because he wanted that secret to be as safe as possible. It's probably only himself who knows the truth (and maybe Howland Reed if R+L=J is true) and "three may keep a secret if two of them are dead".

[@MaynardCrow]

He was right not to trust her with that information. She repeatedly betrayed Ned's trust and got him killed with her doing what Littlefinger planned like a rube and setting off the civil war with her impulsive seizure of Tyrion on half baked intell. If she went back to Winterfell and rallied the banners like Ned told her, the war would have been very different.

[@keineahnung6184]

@@MaynardCrow When did she betray his trust?

[@MaynardCrow]

@@keineahnung6184 He told her to go straight back to Winterfell and rally the banners. She got bogged down in her emotional hair trigger reaction to seeing Tyrion and set off realm on fire earlier than would have happened. She got Ned killed by deviating from the plan. Also, by getting him tied up with Littlefinger. Hell, if she stayed home like he originally told her, a lot of bad things wouldn't have happened.

[@keineahnung6184]

@@MaynardCrow That's true, I agree. Although I wouldn't call the Littlefinger-thing betraying his trust since she didnt know better.

[@officialyoungmari]

@@MaynardCrow she only went to tell him about bran and yes it was an impulsive decision but i think a lot of ppl are being dishonest to say that they wouldnt do the same thing. like if she went out of her way to look for a lannister then maybe id agree w u but thats not what happened they ended up at the same place at the same time. also she didnt want to see him or him see her but he saw her and talked to her and it was a lil too mich for her to have the person who she suspect of killing her son over here laughing and tryna make jokes w her. u guys are being dishonest if u say if that happened to u u could just sit there and let him go.

[@pikaman67]

Even as Stoneheart Catelyn is still doing good. In Feast for crows during Brianne's POV at the In at the Crossroads we see lots and i mean LOTS of orphan children. Putting the pieces together we find out that the brotherhood is still looking for Arya and Sansa as several of the orphan girls look like Arya. Now if Stoneheart was an uncaring monster wouldn't she 1) not even bother looking for her daughters and 2) just let those orphans stay homeless and hungry rather than housed and protected with Gendry?

[@jamespfp]

17:50 -- RE: Edmure and Catelyn's Changing Relationship; Personally, I don't think that this requires too much analysis. After Ned dies, Catelyn's power is exercised primarily through Robb, but also via her familial loyalties to the Tullys. Thus, her relationship with the Black Fish is also altered, because he's become the titular head of House Tully, nothing more.

[@chasedaus681]

I'd rather have a character be complex and have layers than a character who is one dimensional and has only one personality trait or only does everything right. The way Martin writes these characters leaves room for flaws or things you wouldn't expect from them. It makes the story more engaging, and can make the characters way more relatable.

[@multimediafan6777]

33:30 I have to disagree... We've seen in the first book how the Robert Ned grew up with has not only changed completely and grown bitter... He might never have existed at all. Ned idolises Robert to the point where he'll ignore everything he does just so he can keep the idea he has crafted in his mind of Robert the glorious, just, warrior leader that can keep the realm together. Robert just sees Ned as a means to an end. I don't think Robert has ever loved anything. He was still young when his parents died and didn't care for any of hi brothers. He says he loved Lyanna, but I think she was just a thing he wanted that he couldn't have. He grew up with Ned and could count on him because that's what Ned is... Dependable just like his hammer, just like his whine and his whores. Ned does the job! If somehow he would have found out after almost a decade that Ned harboured one of those dragon spawn without his knowledge... As Catelyn says if he thought Ned means to oppose him, he wouldn't hesitate imo.🤷‍♂

[@ratgirl34]

Thank you! When I first got into ASOIAF content I couldn’t find any decent videos about Catelyn where it wasn’t basically a smear campaign… Order of the Green Hand is the worst for it. Have you done any Sansa videos? Most videos seem to talk about the people around her rather than Sansa herself, which I find frustrating. (Like, a lot of them should have been Petyr Baelish videos.) Goin to check out more of your videos and see if there’s a Sansa one. I basically tolerate Sansa… always looking for someone who can humanize her for me a little. I just want to shake her silly for so much of the series….

[@mylittlethoughttree]

I'm really keen to talk about Sansa at some point. I don't know when because she's got a lot of chapters to reread but it's the one I'm most excited for

[@ratgirl34]

@@mylittlethoughttree Awesome! I’m keen to see your take on her, she has a subtle but massive effect on the series. And I wish I could bring myself to like her lol

[@seanightshad4670]

I never saw Bran as being her favorite I saw him as one of her kids she wasn't willing to lose yet. What I mean by that is on some level she expected to marry her daughter's off and they may not even be in the north anymore but her sons were supposed to stay in the North and in Winterfell but Bran was going to leave and he was like 9. I can't help but feel as if Ned didn't tell Cat on purpose about Jon because if anyone went to look at it long enough Ned having a bastard seems absurd but they will just have to look at how Cat is dismissive of Jon to believe it.

[@MotherOf-Ferrets]

I absolutely love your videos about the psychology of characters from the A Song of Ice and Fire series. I look forward to more of them, I think this series has some very fascinating and complex characters and your videos about them are amazing! Thank you for making these and PLEASE keep it up 😊

[@033MMAFiend]

Thank you for a video this long and detailed. No sarcasm. Seriously, thank you.

[@nickbenton4881]

I wish we had more information on Ramsey or Gregor cause an analysis like this of somebody who actually is evil would be wild haha

[@mohmmedbinsalmanalsaud]

This might come of rude but its supposed to be a compliment. Your vice is very calming and I love going to sleep to your Video :) I especially really love your GoT Analysis ! Keep em coming

[@chelscara]

Every time that doll divine family comes up I get flashbacks to middle school lmao

[@Anxious_McStabby]

I never related to people's views of Kat being a cold stuck up B. I always had the impression that, yes, she is those things... Outwardly. She always seemed reluctant, or obligated to that roll, and internally just as jealous of her siblings getting to be themselves as they were of her being perfect. I think she hated the responsibility but it was all she knows. I always had the impression that after losing the 2 sons before her, that her parents distanced themselves from her on any substantial level and the only way she could get attention was by being the "perfect" daughter, or the best replacement she could be. It explained why she is so attached to her kids and catastrophizes everything. She grew up filling a space left open by tragedy, so being actually happy is probably difficult to be comfortable in and it seems more pragmatic to prepare for when it will go wrong than figure out how to actually be content. I think she is wonderful and so deeply complex. Arguably one of my favorites because she is so unique from the other characters and they are all brought up by her. I mean her whole world falls apart like a dozen times before she starts to crack

[@melissaharris3389]

He also skipped over that the man she was betrothed to was killed not long after. At the same time, her sister fell pregnant with an illegitimate child by their childhood friend and the whole country was thrown into civil war. I'd say Catelyn has learned to fear anything going 'right' as that's the time tragedy seems to strike.

[@RhiSoundsLikeRye]

In the GOT universe, it seems that many women maintain their family name (Cersei, Rhaenyra, Margaery, etc.) but Catelyn is known as Catelyn Stark, why is that?

[@CharleyGurl]

When you marry the King - you don't take his name. Only the children get the family name, not the Queen. As for Rhaenyra - she is the Targaryen heir and kept the royal family name.

[@RhiSoundsLikeRye]

@@CharleyGurl So if they are not a queen, do they take their husband's last name like Lysa Arryn and Alerie Tyrell? Why did Rhaenys and Rhea Royce keep their last names?

[@CharleyGurl]

@@RhiSoundsLikeRye Rhea was the Head of her House and Rhaenys is referred to by her married name as well as maiden. I would imagine it's because she's a Princess.

[@RhiSoundsLikeRye]

@@CharleyGurl I can't follow all of this shit lmao thank you It's cool to know that there are different rules that dictate that stuff

[@melissaharris3389]

I'd say it all depends on if a woman's married name is greater then her maiden name. But it's mostly up to the individual lady how she wants to be styled. Catelyn goes by Stark as she gains more respect in the north as Lady Stark. Cercei remains as Lannister because she's still the Lady of Casterly Rock and her father's name being more influential. Historically a woman didn't always change their surnames and royal families didn't actually have set surnames; they used titles.

[@ethantaylor9613]

I actually drew a few parallels between her and Tywin Lannister. They are both immensely capable people, massive assets to their houses, and some of the most sharp political movers of their time. Both are undone, at least, in part by being really horrifically angry and wanting to kill an infant.

[@arielsteinsaltz1956]

This is a wild comparison. Tywin is a heartless monster and Catelyn is a loving mother. She also never wanted to kill an infant.

[@ethantaylor9613]

@@arielsteinsaltz1956 notice how when I compared their characters, I never mentioned their general dispositions, just the things about them I thought were similar. That’s how comparisons work.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

That's not really why catelyn was undone. Also I don't think she was exactly a political mover

[@kyndramb7050]

I've been waiting for this and somehow missed the drop! Thanks for all your hard work. I love long-form videos like this.

[@lindamarie8632]

My sister once said, “If I need to know about history or anything sad/ dark, I ask you.” Lol 😂🖤 As the oldest of seven children there was an immense pressure put on me and my parents didn’t even lose two before me like Catelyn’s did. I felt a motherly protectiveness for all of my siblings and my parents always had me watch them as a Mini mom. I am sure Cat probably was treated similarly and as the dutiful daughter worried about everything to protect her family. It wasn’t until Sound of Freedom came out that my little sisters looked at me differently since they saw how real what I worried about was. When you go out of your way to know all the evil in the world to protect your naive family, it can be hard to be happy but you feel like you are taking it on because someone has to know what is out there. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Heck even when the Coof happened I told a friend “don’t hoard them, but get a few disposable 😷 because you will need them in a week to get groceries.” And we all did. History repeats itself. What is forbidden today is necessary next week sometimes. Worriers look at history, trends and risks to always be on guard and decide what we should do to protect our loved ones. Think of it as a sheepdog for a family of sheep, you are always on guard to avoid anything happening, but have this looming sense something could. When you let your guard down is when it usually happens, so always be vigilant but allow them to enjoy the happiness to not be a downer/ cause them to lose their innocence too soon. If they are leaving the country/ safety of home you have to let them know how to protect themselves and I think that was Ned and Cat’s biggest mistake. They should have let all of the kids know the risks outside of Winterfell, so they all could come back home safely.😔 Sadly they didn’t have a family emergency plan and it ended tragically.

[@jamespfp]

44:35 -- RE: Resurrection and losing part of one's self; See also the classical symbology of Justice as a Blindfolded Goddess. I think GRRM's point is that the only way there could be Justice for Catelyn and the dead of House Stark is for others to take up the Cause. Similarly, Brienne of Tarth continues to serve Catelyn. "To Lose Part of Oneself" seems to me to be functionally analogous to being Blind. That's why it doesn't matter to Lady Stoneheart whether a Bolton, a Frey, or a Lannister was personally involved with the Red Wedding.

[@jamespfp]

There are many words we can consider here alongside of "vengeance". "Vindication" immediately springs to mind, also "retribution".

[@raylast3873]

Why is Catelyn always expecting bad things to happen? I don‘t really buy the „absorbed grief in infancy“, I think it‘s actually much more simple: she never had a carefree childhood and was deprived of the fundamental trust that well-adjusted people preserve from childhood. The thing that allows most of us to assume that the world is fundamentally a decent place, people can be trusted and things will turn out ok. Victims of childhood trauma loose that, and so do kids who are forced into adult-roles early on. This latter one is exactly the case with Cat. She spends her entire adolescence (and much of her childhood) as the surrogate mother of her siblings and even has to be „Lady of Riverrun“. She has to be the adult from very early on, and as a result she never learns to trust the way normal kids do. She has to worry, because if she doesn‘t, her remaining siblings might die or some tragedy befall the Tullys as a whole. Yes, all kids eventually need to learn to distinguish trust from naivete, but that only works if they are able to trust to begin with. Those who never learn to trust are always in survival mode, always on edge, always anxious for the future, and I think this is very much the case with Cat. It‘s a survival mechanism that goes back so far we can‘t shut it off, it‘s always on. Kids aren‘t adults and they break if they are expected to be. Then they learn behavioral patterns that actually impede the ability to function in the long run. Cat had to start worrying so early on that she can never not worry. She is so fundamentally conditioned to expect danger that it overrides her adult judgement. All the worse, this conditioning is much too vague to help her perceive actual threats more clearly. All it does is make her unhappy and anxious.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Brilliant comment! I absolutely agree

[@santiagomartin2696]

I whould kill for a Lysa video. She is such a intresting and unrelated character

[@vivvy_0]

underated and overlooked for sure

[@gray7433]

Thanks for another great psychology video. These take a lot of work and I appreciate them.

[@jeffreydupree8670]

Hopping on very late. Enjoying the analysis. Catelyn's flaw is that of the entire Stark family (other than Sansa and Arya) is that they don't play the game well. They are not Machiavellian enough to fare well in this environment. Part of it is that their primary position they are so remote from the rest of Westeros that they have not had to routinely engage in the intrigue and corruption of the the other regions. This causes them to make bold decisions which usually go very wrong. They don't see the vipers in the grass. One example of a could have done 1) The wedding to the Frey's should have taken place immediately for political reasons and bond Walder to the North which would have been very much in Stark tradition (Ned marrying Catelyn)