Catherine Liu: Trauma, Virtue and Liberal Elites | Doomscroll

[@GG-mn9ls]

‘leveraging and instrumentalizing your suffering to accentuate your brand’ something i’ve thought for a long time, but she says it so succinctly

[@agricolaregs]

This is not a revelation. People have been talking about this for years.

[@GG-mn9ls]

@@agricolaregs ok

[@GG-mn9ls]

@@agricolaregs i didn’t say the idea was revelatory. i said she put it succinctly.

[@patrickalmeida5778]

Truly beautifully said

[@alheno5423]

This is literally one of most satisfying and helpful conversations I’ve ever seen on the internet! As a working class person I instinctually know all of this but have had no words and context for it. This is so powerful!

[@caroespinoza9287]

I second this sentiment. I am also in grad school and am annoyed by some of my classes that only focus on theory that is one sided and does not actually apply to reality

[@JesusHammer]

@@caroespinoza9287 You're probably too retarded for grad school then

[@ericw.6107]

"The less realizable a political goal is, the more they like it." That says it all and explains a lot.

[@Joeyjojoshabbadoo]

Yeah, that sums up hardcore careerist liberals pretty well. That's the name of the game. They're parasites. And without a broken society, to one degree or another, what does anybody need them for? So it' needs to stay broken. Probably not part of some grand, insidious strategy, but a keen instinct for it, like a survival instinct. And that's how they make their money, and where they stake their claim.

[@softfocus9042]

In Argentina we have something similar called “Baglini’s theorem”, related to how crazy the proposals and plans from a political party can be, and how they are inversely proportional to their actual closeness to real political power (winning the elections, having many seats in congress, etc)

[@maxmcdonald4227]

hey josh. not only have the guests been excellent but you as an interviewer have been incredible. making sure certain topics are being explained properly while still letting them speak freely. excellent work, really hope you continue this project.

[@maxmcdonald4227]

@@brentoncarter4275 nice one

[@ploob906]

I am loving the card board box

[@WhizPill]

This was on my recommendation

[@Kathleenpoors]

Brave

[@buru44]

This is one of the best interviews I have ever seen. I am so fired up and moved by Catherine Liu. I literally took notes! Her wisdom is spellbinding.

[@OKANjarrod]

Sometimes the algorithm drops a gem on the TL; she is my new favorite human. Ruthless Critique!

[@Historiansplaining]

long been one of my top favorites. Irreplaceable

[@simonnilsson5356]

A new thinker for me, I liked her a lot. Just like you can trust a man with an ugly wife, you can trust an intellectual who ruthlessly and unapologetically criticises people on her side of the political spectrum. We need people like her, Slavoj and… who else? to start building or engaging much more with leftist alternative media efforts. It would be great for people on the right, like myself, if we could watch, learn from and debate people who we respect on the other side of the political spectrum. Not the snow-flaky, history-less, victim parrots who currently occupy the establishment and alternative leftist media. Real leftists have to remove these woke idiots to ensure that the pendulum doesn’t swing too far to the right when the time comes. We tried that 80 years ago and nobody wants that..

[@robertacampani5663]

She is good!

[@wesbraver9335]

@@simonnilsson5356 sounds like you might actually be a leftist who is fed up with liberal respectability politics and has fallen into the hands of the right, just as Catherine was discussing

[@placer7412]

​@@simonnilsson5356 brother im on the other side of the aisle and I want to say, I love that someone on the other side is extending an olive branch. Its time for a reunion of the american people. These type of leftists have inadvertently given us a path there. I feel I genuinely understand the conservative perspective so much better now, In a way its liberating.

[@MattJarjoura]

Finally, having the language to describe my lived experience is so incredibly powerful. Thank you for sharing your life’s work.

[@boomgatbing]

THis woman is a national treasure. I gave 3 copies of Virtue Hoarders to friends last Christmas, and they were all floored. Brilliant speaker and writer.

[@airmark02]

Yes ... Amazing book

[@ektran4205]

class ladder buffer zone, the working class is the buffer zone between the underclass and middle class

[@samvogel4179]

Heard her speak for 30 seconds, read this comment, and auto-copped her book.

[@JohnMoran]

Catherine Liu seems to me so brilliant, it's refreshing to hear an academic language expressing an honest, working class perspective.

[@garyweglarz]

"Telling 'your story' as a billionaire - does not heal ANYBODY." - love it. : )

[@jordanelizabeth4664]

Dang, she’s amazing. It feels visionary. Even though most of what she is saying is highly observational and common sense, the way she hits the nail on the head repeatedly is so intellectually skilled & I haven’t heard many people put these ideas as poignantly. Excited to read her book :)

[@AMRARDvermebrungruppe]

I love this talk because it's like she's very articulate and precise in saying something that I for one, and I think we all, have basically been thinking for a long time and unable to find the words for.

[@nicko8118]

god it is so good as a psychotherapist to have people like Cathy Liu in the world, talking about the bullshit in the industry

[@MrFirefox322]

It's also interesting how deeply ingrained the idea that physical labor and mental labor can't coexist in host is. Like it seems to me some of the times I think clearest is when I am using my body. I think the issue is the exploitation of the body. Of course we can't think clearly when we are overworked and exhausted, but then the issue isn't that those people don't deserve to think--they deserve to have rest so they can think. Very strange to me. loved this discussion and shared it widely.

[@AdamBechtol]

Mmm

[@lenorefoxmoor9985]

🎨🎯 Appreciate your Thought-share (Brilliant)👏

[@JohnLimeson]

Embodiment is key to good mental health. The more time we spend in a "high" intellectual state, the more we risk entering a negative feedback loop of negative thoughts/physical discomfort.

[@tunab666]

As I am struggling with my "mental" career (content marketing for tech/gaming companies, I swear it is consuming my soul) and really pondering the idea of learning a "manual" profession instead, I also realized how uncommon this might sound to most people whereas it is totally normal to me to feel inclined to do both. I think women are a little more prone to integrating practical intelligence/labor in their lives than man are because of domestic labor etc, but we are still so conditioned by education and society do disrespect and reject anything manual nobody really thinks about it enough.

[@placer7412]

@@tunab666Find a skill that works even if the world ends. Even guitarists may be kept around if you have to think about mouths to feed. I would say I was the leftist Catherine was speaking of in days passed, but I’ve personally come to appreciate things we might typically see as conservative nowadays, for better or worse. Atleast my disenfranchisement with “the left” has given me the option to radically alter my world view and maybe finally break out of my prison that I’ve been duped into building

[@nostromo13]

What a great conversation. It's so good it's worth multiple viewings. I also want to highlight how good the book Virtue Hoarders: the Case Against the Professional Managerial Class is. It's short and to the point, something the vast majority of non-fiction books fail to do. Her substack is great, too.

[@brat6969]

Isnt there this thing that you know something is well presented and explained when you hear it and you feel like they are talking about something you already understand. Great interviews. Thanks!

[@ScottRiddleArtist]

This is a very complex topic. My spouse and I moved to the Silicon Valley from Los Angeles about 10 years ago. My spouse would be one of those industrially educated salaried workers that you are speaking about. Another thing I noticed about the majority of this class/population here in the Silicon Valley? it’s such a monoculture combined with their industrial education. That they are destroying all other forms of culture in the area and wherever they populating concentration. Making it both unaffordable, but also being completely uninterested in supporting art ,culture ,craftsmanship. and many other forms of what people for centuries have helped to grow and define because they were the class of people in power financially.

[@r3fus32d13]

I would love to hear Catherine Liu speak to Gabor Matee about trauma and depoliticization. Please make it happen

[@silvinacarrizo2726]

Pero ella está hablando de estructuras de sentimientos privatizadas por la industria cultural y del entretenimiento.

[@Pandoradow]

Yes agreed. Would love hear a truly interdisciplinary talk

[@wesbraver9335]

please oh my god

[@ronmackinnon9374]

@@silvinacarrizo2726 Might you say that she is talking more about the commodification of trauma (or even of 'trauma,' in quotation marks)? Whereas Gabor Mate´ deals with real trauma, and what it takes to heal.

[@silvinacarrizo2726]

@@ronmackinnon9374 hola, no conseguí la traducción de tu texto, pero estudié y leo inglés, creo que tenés razón, ella está hablando de algo que se volvió una práctica y se volvió un sinsentido al ver lo que sucede ahora en el mundo post pandemia Eso nada tiene que ver con el gran Dr Gabor Maté que está luchando contra las violencias en todo sentido, por lo menos es lo que entiendo

[@caden.927]

This interview was more insightful and engaging than anything I've ever seen on television

[@saeorwss1670]

This showed up on my recommended as I was, in real time, thinking about how samey youtube content has become, and how it's like everyone has been repeating the same few shallow thoughts over and over again. The depth of thought and ideas presented here are such a breath of fresh air by youtube standards. Thanks for making all this free for everyone to watch, amazing work!

[@MizJilly]

What an amazing, no-games-tolerated woman. Thank you for this interview.

[@caseymckenzie4760]

The funny thing is only PMCs are likely to listen to this. Who is ready to be a real class traitor?

[@eastonclark3151]

i am a trashman ✌️

[@coda-n6u]

One of her points is that you need leftists at all levels of society for social democracy to emerge. Personally this made me feel like I should be a lot more vulgar, and a lot more critical, and that those ideas and behaviors are important for us as leftists. “Ruthless criticism of the present”

[@isaiahjindrich4844]

I’m a commercial fisherman.

[@extendedclubmix420]

based on what?

[@goodluck5642]

@@eastonclark3151dont be so hard on yourself

[@c.andrew3944]

So far this podcast has done a fantastic job of highlighting the contradictions within the 'modern American left' and sometimes within some of its biggest voices. Watching you push and pull on the guests is good interviewing, its revealing, and its self critical. Genuinely makes me think. Good show, thank you.

[@tritisan]

I am so grateful to have been introduced to this amazing woman.

[@jefferycorley8006]

She really hit the nail on the head, dead on. My job at a library has all of these issues, and this passive aggressive language and inability to communicate is epidemic, particularly among those around 10 years younger than myself.

[@felixclarke1601]

Boomer moment

[@rowe9327]

this podcast is gunna get huge. great format. thanks for this.

[@odetelizi]

I just want to say THANK YOU for this conversation and the way Prof Catherine makes certain questions that constitute the collective unrest so clear. I feel truly enlightened

[@dillandsweetgrass145]

this is outstanding, it should not be as refreshing and rare as it is to hear someone articulate all of this so perfectly.

[@lovelyleeyah]

I've never seen this podcast in my LIFE. But you know, even the small act of the interviewer writing down notes throughout the professor talking was very insightful into the productive conversations this podcast wants to have-- it shows intent and thoughtfulness. Only 22 minutes in and i really like this video :)

[@erich7861]

This was such a good conversation. It really goes much deeper than the usual criticisms and she offers perspectives I dont hear often (ever).

[@AdamBechtol]

Wow, she's incredible. So perspicacious! A new fav for sure. One of the few people who seems to have such a full and spot on assessment of our modern culture. How disappointing there's only one or two other videos of her on KZbin it seems.

[@ai_serf]

So much of this I agree with. The guilt factor is huge if you have a heart and you're part of the bourgeoisie. It's a massive contradiction to somehow justify why you receive love while others experience hell on earth, and worse. This is why ideologies such as 'The Secret,' capitalism, etc., exist-to justify a necropolitics happening both domestically and abroad. You sleep well, while others don't even get that.

[@AdamBechtol]

Mmmm

[@eightiefiv3]

Epic interview. Catherine is a true gem!! Joshua, you’ve earned yourself a new follower. ❤

[@profe3330]

So many seemingly disparate topics coming together so elegantly . . . WOW. Catherine Liu is AMAZING.

[@headrat1]

Incredible conversation. She is so articulate in calling out the false dichotomy of the liberal conservative paradigm. Time to read Virtue Hoarders.

[@JasonPhippsProducer]

This is a joyously challenging interview and conversation, Catherine bursts so many bubbles its just fun to watch!

[@theonionpirate1076]

Haven't finished yet but this woman is possibly the best articulator of what's going on I've ever heard, and I've listened to plenty of people who do it excellently.

[@ibc53-y7g]

What a wonderful and refreshing interview. I ordered a copy of Virtue Hoarders and look forward to more of these interviews. Many thanks!

[@56macaroni]

I sent this to a friend saying " this is what I've been trying to say, but didn't have the words" . incredibly interesting interview. Thanks.

[@PostYourJaggahog]

I still cannot believe this channel is so small. The quality of these interviews is off the chain.

[@hudsonfreemanmusic]

Catherine Liu showed up on my TL at such an important time. I remember feeling so utterly confused and bereft leaving the Evangelical Church that formed me, getting into Leftism, and feeling so much of the exact same things I grew up with - paternalism, moralism, a sense that the world was intractable and fixed in place as evil, that the goal was to join an elect that could enclave themselves from that perverse world, etc... so grateful to her

[@DelandaBaudLacanian]

she's a good Marxist evanglist even for conservatives, its why billionaires like Marc Andresson pay attention to her

[@cafeacupiper]

Read marx engels lenin. Lib academics will make you even more confused

[@jlethal4929]

Woke people are basically neo Calvinists

[@parakeet5]

This is exactly my story too, you’ve described it so well I’m floored. So hard to describe to a leftist how much like an evangelical they are, and trying to explain it to a liberal will trigger the hell out of them. I haven’t read her book but I guess now I have to!

[@hudsonfreemanmusic]

@@parakeet5 100%

[@kipwonder2233]

This woman is COMPLETELY fascinating 🤩!!!

[@ebonyyyyyyyyyy]

Great interview! I took her classes in university when I was younger and she was a great mentor. I love to see her here ❤

[@Numina_]

This was amazing. I needed to hear this. Thank you.

[@garygroesch4195]

Thanks mucho, J..C., this conversation is already having and affect on the rest of my life - I have been waiting for decades to hear Professor Liu, but of course didn't know it, until just now, I am standing up straighter, the ache in my left knee is better, hell bell--

[@ronmackinnon9374]

Not only do I appreciate Liu's articulateness and mental dexterity, I also love her forays into voice mimicry of these PMC twits -- hilarious!

[@arphaxad1]

This was spectacular, articulate and very relevant to this moment in history.

[@joesligo1516]

She is brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I love how she flows.

[@RighteousCrow]

Holy moly what an enlightening conversation 🤯 gonna follow y'all fur sure

[@jimmydean9602]

Biy this is good stuff. Fighting the establishment with facts and intelligence, been waiting since 2016 for this

[@samezidrovibes]

I will certainly be seeking more talks from Catherine out. Grateful this was recommend.

[@skurtov]

Wowza. Fantastic work. Good substance and hits the nail on the head.

[@Patience694]

This was absolutely mind blowing! thank you for this so very much!

[@jeffreyhotchkiss9451]

"Intense veneer of moral superiority...what would happen if that was pierced?" IDK I think supporting a globally witnessed genocide is pretty piercing.

[@Harrier32]

Realizing a majority of the country hates you enough to elect a criminal does it too.

[@azim0v0]

I love this interview, this and the previous have been great. However, stop talking about the working class in the abstract and hire someone to solve the condensation issues on the windows. I don't like seeing that mould grow.

[@BradDunn]

I've told so many people about this conversation; it was excellent. So much good stuff in it.

[@parkerfritts]

Enlightening conversation. Thanks for starting this podcast 🫡

[@orangecountyhouse]

I told my story to spread awareness about abuse and exploitation. However, no one believed me or wanted to listen to me. Then Paris Hilton told her story and they listened and believed her.

[@hambospictures]

Wasn’t aware of Catherine Liu before this but you’ve done it again! I could listen to a lot more of this

[@Mr.paillant]

In a world where truth gets evermore hard to find, this video is a beacon

[@Zachreekane]

New favorite channel. Great interviews, my friend.

[@afroaesthete3701]

This is SO good, thank you for doing this and thank the algorithm for showing it to me.

[@Pandoradow]

yes😂 I was so surprised this showed up in the middle of my doomscrolling.

[@st3venseagal248]

Liu cracking up at the mention and description of monarchists is so good.

[@Juantjw]

yeah smugness is how we will win the right wing over

[@st3venseagal248]

@@Juantjw I'm just laughing at entertaining stuff on the internet officer.

[@Juantjw]

@@st3venseagal248 smug again

[@bradmurray1736]

​@@Juantjw I don't think monarchists are popular or should be taken seriously. I mean come on, maybe a British monarchist. That counts on a technicality.

[@samvogel4179]

@@Juantjw expressing sincere surprise and laughing at the thought of there being people who unironically call themselves monarchists isn't being smug go outside

[@Rosecrucian]

This guest is wonderful.

[@iansterling9150]

Enjoyable and excellent interview, Catherine helps clarify contemporary class dynamics better than most i've read.

[@LaurenBerns]

23:04 love that she points out the issue plaguing America's leftists: seeking to make their "movement" as obscure and self-obsessed, rather than finding ways to expand its appeal to as many actual human beings as possible, so as to help them.

[@Dannutts]

havent gotten there yet. but i have a HUGE problem with how dems & repubs generally classify what is "left." most seem to have a 1:1, left=dem idea, when that's just not correct

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

​@@Dannuttsthis is exactly the type of behavior being discussed lmao

[@Dannutts]

@@chickenfishhybrid44 lol superficially yes. but not overall. liberals are going to go with leftists in the end or they wont. it's working class conservatives that have become class conscious & are war averse that hate msm that will ultimately usher in change. not pmc libs. it's ultimately a worthwhile discussion& distinction to make that leftists are nit dems, are not liberals & we distrust the media as much as you

[@Dannutts]

@@chickenfishhybrid44 weird. My reply to this seems to have been deleted/disappeared. I got a notification & it's gone. I don't think I said anything insulting or negative, but used the term PMCs and libs lol. & talked vaguely abt working class solidarity. But yeah idk edit. im guessing you reported it bc ??

[@LaurenBerns]

​@@Dannuttsthis was a successful propaganda effort on the part of Republicans. They've worked hard at collapsing the distinctions between liberals, welfare-state liberals, socialists and communists. The Democrats, in turn, often conflated those just right of center with "the far right." The combined effects of these efforts has been to destroy the already under-developed ability to have a basic political conversation in America: no one understands the meaning of the words they throw around.

[@johnkobert307]

This is now my new favorite pod thank you so much for introducing me to your excellent guest !

[@billybee9659]

What a fascinating guest. I could listen to Catherine for hours.

[@hollynewton243]

Omg I'm only half through and taking notes. Literally, the conversations I've been having lately here in Shallow Palo Alto. I came here on Travel Nurse Contract. I've been surprised and NOT at what I have witnessed here in society and the hospital. ( and I have traveled a lot since 2019 both overseas and in the States) To be frank the institution I'm in is the most hypocritical of them all. Texans are like kittens in comparison. I've witnessed more performance art as far as Healthcare values and ethics are concerned while being amongst the most toxic/passive aggressive and bitter health providers and management yet -well besides from the East Coast. Which I find very interesting. The management pretends to be hands off, so to speak, and yet there's more micromanagement, less support, and "managerial speak" as Catherine speaks to. These people have NO clue how to relate to their patients and look at me like I have three heads. They blast music in the Operating room as patients enter the door - I turn it off. That whole eye contact thing - - Apparently we're not supposed to give too long of eye contact (this from a North East Hospital). And Wow, the whole part on the Feminized Angry humans. Just said this to a friend the other day. And it's so strong here in the Bay area - I've actually had to question whether I'm a misogynist or something?? LOL. Anyway really great content. Thank you

[@user-yr1si5db3d]

Funny you mention them blasting music. When I lived in the Bay, I worked at a help desk for a major hospital. Doctors would submit incident requests like "Pandora not working" and it would be considered a high priority incident. I learned some of the doctors needed the music while working.

[@hollynewton243]

@@user-yr1si5db3d insane. And I get it… but seriously, not when patients are still awake arriving into the OR half naked and scared. There is seriously zero mindfulness anymore. …. It’s me me me.

[@Dylan-James]

Great first two guests!

[@Dylan-James]

Get Jen Pan on the pod.

[@airmark02]

I read the *Case Against the Professional Managerial Class* & really enjoyed it. ~ thank you Catherine Liu

[@stuffbydom]

Very good interview - this is my first time hearing Dr.Liu speak and she's amazing - always references great sources and articulates her thoughts so specifically

[@synapticmemoryseepage4447]

Awesome. Thanks Liu and Citarella.

[@hankheat]

Absolutely brilliant! Articulates SO many things that have been bothering me without the clarity of this analysis. I’m about to go read any Catherine Liu I can get my hands on.

[@scoot2live]

wowowow i'm way too dumb to fully absorb what's going across this entire conversation, but it's really resonating and hitting my brain the right way.

[@gabrielem3lis848]

Omg this woman is brilliant it’s such a joy to hear her speak

[@dq405]

This interview is too important to ignore, and so (of course) it will be ignored. But anyone who needs to understand what the professional managerial class has become, why it acts against the interests of the working- and middle-classes, and how its increasing authoritarianism and resentment of "common people" has undermined democracy in Western countries, will want to hear this conversation.

[@dawnfmEnthusiast]

I like the lightness of your set. Better than most.

[@IAmTheWalrus6700]

I love Catherine Liu and this is brilliant and also fascinating to listen to from an adjacent discipline that never made contact with this world of literary studies/theory/etc. (philosophy)

[@cherylewers6322]

This is a fantastic interview! Thank you for putting it out!

[@knowsutrue]

Much of the mechanics that make trauma personal rather than political is the medical and psychiatric models that are well girded by eugenics. Those are powerful entrenched institutions that many many have been pushing back against. Telling a history of the holocaust through personal stories within the context of historical events is one of many ways to render history. Just like in Albert Camus’ The Plague shows how fascism rises within the context of a community.

[@BlissfulBasilisk]

I’ve never heard an argument about the appropriation of vulgarity. Great interview, she is amazing!

[@JoeDope00]

Never seen your channel before or know who this lady is but I love her, she is so spot on! In fact I just quit my high paying tech job because I am so tired of all the boring mind-numbing HR/corporate administrative drudgery of my job, not to mention the HR sponsored feminization of the entire corporate structure. I am not employed right now and don't care it doesn't matter where I go, most companies these days are paying people to NOT think, not the reverse. Cheers!

[@allaprima5097]

very thankful to come across this video, she’s wonderful

[@senhara5875]

came from the brace ep and damn, Liu next, awesome

[@TobiasBlack-w9d]

I don’t know how I got here but I’m glad I’m here your guest is wonderful and I’ll be picking up her work thank you

[@ZachKins]

Its Liu time

[@anastasiale331]

💯🙌

[@CharlieBabbitt1988]

You’re goddam right it is!

[@78deathface]

I didn’t go to college

[@777jones]

@@78deathfaceyou did now.

[@kristinashepherd3003]

After finding this video, I’m now a subscriber ❤ can’t wait to explore your older videos

[@fowchiiiliedpuppiesdied]

I quit my job as a fine arts professor in protest in 2018. I worked at GWU in DC. Same issues.

[@SamJCopeland-gj1vg]

This video made me feel so seen and valid.

[@ayuds7042]

How so?

[@Mandelasmind]

@@ayuds7042 Going through any corporate institution you are faced with the consequences of these ideologies daily. People who make way more than you and preach constantly about being virtuous are the same ones you see treat others so disposably.

[@ayuds7042]

@@Mandelasmind That’s true, I agree. You are punished, I feel, for having a sense community and vulnerability under exploitative systems of control. However, conversations like these on platforms like this, when translated into actual life, generate the consciousness and collective understanding needed to motivate a cultural shift! I would say it’s up for individuals to find their calling in how to play into this development, but it is becoming stronger, more agile, and present. (i.e. George Floyd Uprisings, increase in unionization, college student protests against corporations, etc.) At the end of the day though, once corporate limits imagination and empathy, then it has accomplished its goal :/

[@djmeisner]

dawg ur killing it, love these episodes excited for more

[@Patrick-jj5nh]

What a riveting lady, her thinking is so refreshing!

[@Izzysai]

As a conservative who really wants to understand the left..this interview has been extremely helpful for me to understand both the far right and far left. I think everyone should listen to this interview as it doesn't offer massive "slams" on either side but a nuanced perspective and rebuke for the left and right. Her comment about looking/ correct your own faults before others is a tenant wasn't aware of on the left.

[@k8schmate]

Conservative here, same…that comment was confusing however still enjoyed hearing her perspective on the whole

[@selfdribblingbasketball9769]

This podcast is so good

[@imtuz]

love this episode! catherine is such a great guest

[@Isabellaa-ms5dk]

wow i could listen to her talk all day! amazing

[@josephcaldwell7692]

I grew up in a family of stone masons where family was the unit of labor I was under a system of care where people were more important than profit and the acquisition of skill was the primary goal. The division of labor was temporary as one gained mastery. Every one of my mentors were self-employed and could build or fix nearly anything.

[@nexuslux]

Such a good interview. Excellent questions. Just awesome.

[@m271-c1h]

I love random clicks that work out. 😊 And what a sharp guest.

[@lisadurden2399]

This was a breath of fresh air.