Catholic/Protestant Debate: Is the Papacy Affirmed in the New Testament?

In this formal debate, Suan Sonna (Catholic, left) and Gavin Ortlund (Protestant, right) discuss whether the Catholic teaching of the pope/papacy is affirmed in the New Testament.
Suan Sonna is a philosophy student at Kansas State University and a Baptist convert to Catholicism. Suan has two published papers: one on the presumption of innocence in Cornell University's LOGOS journal and another published in the Heythrop journal not only responding to Jerry Walls' objections to the papacy but providing a positive Biblical case for Vatican I papal theology. Suan is also the founder and head of the Facebook page, podcast, and KZbin channel "Intellectual Conservatism" which is dedicated to conserving ancient Christian morality, political theory, metaphysics, theology, and more! Suan's YT channel: / @intellectualcatholicism
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai in Ojai, California. He is the author of several books, including Why God Makes Sense in a World That Doesn't: The Beauty of Christian Theism. He runs a KZbin channel called Truth Unites: / @truthunites
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#Protestant #Catholic #Papacy

[@shlamallama6433]

I love the overall positive attitude in this debate. Everyone was charitable.

[@doxamedia377]

Loved the debate. I’m a Protestant, but I loved the depth of knowledge Mr. Suan depicted. Thank you Dr. Gavin for your work!

[@Xgy33]

? He was wrong about everything

[@dennischanay7781]

I'm Catholic convert late in life but feel same for Gavin. Gives me hope that we all can learn something from each other. I'm convicted Catholic but do believe God must have had a good purpose in the Reformation. And we can't forget our Orthodox brothers. Strange that there are 3 main branches of the Christian faith each representing a different element of humanity. Catholic logic Orthodox mystic Protestant heart.

[@matthewn2559]

@@dennischanay7781 "Strange "is not something we should be basing our faith on.

[@konterrevolutionbeginnt1457]

@@dennischanay7781 God did not bring about the reformation, and that's rather a very Protestant view of the events; if one really looks at the reformation and what came with it and what its fruits have looked like, then one can not claim that what happened back then had anything to do with God, for revolution always is the work of the devil; now I agree though, that God will turn it into something good in the long run because that's what He always does...

[@konterrevolutionbeginnt1457]

@@baddog6003 All the so-called reformers chose the heart and their passions, and with it, many times the sword above logic and reason; the sword of Christ is a spiritual one; just read the works of Luther and how he talks about the enslaved will and his other works where he rejects reason and basically blames God for his own wicked sins...

[@joelmontero9439]

I really like how Gavin debates against the papacy I think he's the best protestant I've seen debate this topic, Suan is the best catholic I've seen on this topic too. Great debate keep it up Cameron ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

[@solidbooston524]

It’s crazy to think Suan wasn’t even a catholic for a full year iirc when this debate was posted lol

[@johnlloydc.semilla1666]

Nah

[@kynesilagan2676]

For me. Gavin is the best Protestant to debate papacy. But for Catholics. It's not Suan as awesome as he is. It would be any of the following. Jimmy Trent Tim Steve ======= And yes, it is terrifying how Suan would become if he matured through the years. He's a genius at his age.

[@joebidensdiaper8526]

Dr James White has 30 years of epic Catholic debates

[@sivad1025]

@@joebidensdiaper8526 I'm a protestant whose faith has been severely damaged by James White's debates. Every one I've seen, the Catholic has completely decimated White. I don't know how any open minded viewer could find White persuasive

[@barry.anderberg]

I've been moving towards Catholicism for a couple of years now. This discussion certainly reduced my momentum. Lots to think about. Thanks to Gavin and Suan!

[@samueljohn6937]

For me also catholicism is making alot of sense to me lately

[@versatilelord8893]

I’ll welcome you home in advance!!!

[@versatilelord8893]

I wouldn’t let anything Gavin says deter you from the truth of Christ’s mystical body

[@vituzui9070]

So you were more convinced by dr. Ortlund's arguments? Could you tell which arguments in particular?

[@Justas399]

@@vituzui9070 there is nothing in the New Testament that mentions the office of a pope. Peter never claims to be the supreme leader of the church nor do the apostles acknowledge him as such.

[@gyldandillget4813]

Cameron that setup is looking immaculate

[@paulywauly6063]

Awesome debate and i really love the very charitable and friendly tone of this debate . Congratulations to both sides for being uber respectful

[@sarahyoder4035]

A debate run and participated in the way it should be! We need to be searching for the Truth, and as we do that charitably together, we will find Him. Keep up the good work, all three of you!

[@frankN326]

What a refreshing debate! Genuine questions, humble responses, and great insight!

[@timcole2701]

Thanks Suan & Gavin for agreeing to do this. May the Lord bless you guys, and may clarity & unity among the saints of Christ continue increasing to His glory

[@mvlandis6456]

Wonderful, balanced debate between two very wise and educated men! Enjoyed hearing both sides and learned a lot as a Catholic. Thank you!

[@stephanelarochelle2484]

Awesome debate, done by two of the best experts in the field. Thanks you!

[@MBiggens]

Fantastic debate. I'm grateful to have it still available on KZbin even a couple of years later. I'm currently in OCIA and as I've been researching things on my own outside of that I've been really fascinated by the many parallels I'm finding between Old and New Testaments. It's really helped me appreciate better how the Catholic Church understands some of its unique doctrines such as the papacy or Marian dogmas. As such, I find these kinds of debates invaluable as I try to discern their truths and make my own mind up about them. Quick question: were the opening statements ever made available? Cameron mentioned on a couple of occasions wanting to get those and make them available, but I don't see them in the video description anywhere.

[@lh1053]

Suan is amazing, a true gift. Thank you for this talk!!!!

[@nametheunknown_]

Wow very gracious debate. I appreciate the almost immediate effect I sensed Dr. Ortlund's attitude had on Suan. Not the Suan was aggressive or rude but he was "business-like"; he was in debate mode. As Dr. Ortlund pointed out, he's a good debater. But as soon as Dr. Ortlund gave his first remark I sensed a change in the entire mood of the discussion towards graciousness and mutual understanding. That is the way of our Lord. Good on you, sir. God bless all 3 of you.

[@lonelyberg1808]

Keep up the good work Suan

[@lucashondros3418]

Amazing dialogue. Often Catholic/Protestant debates get heated to the point where the discussion is useless [at least in blogosphere.] These two gentleman were humble & cordial, while knowing their stuff simultaneously.

[@gideondavid30]

Yeah, thank God for patient and respectful brothers like these. It doesn't seem fake either.

[@ImTiredOfThisChurch]

That’s simply not true most Catholic/Protestant debate are usually civil and charitable especially when hosted on Christian channels or platforms. That is unless you’re talking about the comment section below them in which case you’re totally right

[@truthisbeautiful7492]

Suan doesnt mention that the handful of early Fathers (ancient Christian writers) that mention a 'New Eve' typology also CONTRADICT required Roman Catholic Marian Dogmas. Such as Tertullian and possibly Ireanaus. There is no 'patristic consensus' on Marian dogmas as any scholar knows.

[@gfujigo]

This is interesting. Do you have a quote or link? Thanks.

[@kevinbartolen5881]

Tertullian isn't really a church father though.

[@gfujigo]

@@kevinbartolen5881 What do you mean he is not really a church father? How did you come to that conclusion?

[@kevinbartolen5881]

@@gfujigo He isn't considered a church father by the church. Church fathers praised some of his writings but also criticized or condemned others. Later in his life he left the church and fell into heresy of Montanism. He isn't considered a church father for similar reasons as Origen.

[@truthisbeautiful7492]

@@kevinbartolen5881 speaking of him as a historical witness, who was very influential to the development of latin theology, likely a pastor, used the term Trinitas. He is commonly cited by roman catholic theologians. So his testimony that is early and against roman catholic doctrines, with no evidence that anybody contradicts him, is relevant. Why shouldn't historians use the oldest historical evidence rather then the later historical evidence? Why do Tertullian and Ireanus, who perhaps originate the 'New Eve' analogy, briefly mentioning it in their vast writings, explain what means differently then modern Roman Catholic?

[@markfrideres284]

Love Suan. Converts like him that follow the evidence are powerful witnesses to truth and hope for unity because he speaks to a Bible-only presupposition exquisitely.

[@SuperrBoyful]

Yes indeed!

[@gfujigo]

He does an excellent job of speaking to Protestants like me by sourcing scriptures and Protestant sources. I pray God continues to bless him.

[@chonk6683]

Well, the only problem is that his argument as a whole is based on a presupposition which cannot be found Biblically - That there is a pope, who is infallible, has apostolic succession, and is the figurehead of Rome. These things need to be assumed and forced on scripture to have any argument whatsoever. But otherwise, I agree.

[@markfrideres284]

It's not assumed or forced on scripture. It is the witness of the church. It's only a problem if you refuse the witness of extrabiblical evidence a priori or force an extrabiblical rule upon Suan. Dismissing evidence based on an ad hoc a priori is not a sound way to arrive at any sort of truth. You'll see skeptics do the same thing when they say, "I can dismiss what was written in Acts because it is not corroborated in the Bible nor extrabiblical witness." Okay, who made that rule? The rule you've applied didn't exist before Martin Luther made it up whole cloth. Protestants use extrabiblical witness to arrive at a necessity of biblical witness. They also use extrabiblical witness to arrive at a canon. The sword cuts both ways if we want to be consistent with an epistemology, so it's rather easy to dismiss your claim about his assumptions.

[@chonk6683]

@@markfrideres284 The difference here is that I'm not dismissing acts or anything of the sort, as it is in the Bible. I'm not saying I disagree with something just because it isn't corroborated the bible. But when it comes to an interpretation and denomination of Christianity claiming that Peter was the first pope with little to no very early/biblical evidence, it makes things far easier to dismiss. Why? Because it is a manmade notion with no link or association with the written words of Jesus.

[@higherthanhope27]

Dr. Gavin Ortlund is a true blessing in this community. He has articulated my confusion and questions when I first started hearing typological arguments from Catholic and Orthodox Christians.

[@patrickbarnes9874]

I find typological arguments completely unpersuasive. If person X and person Y shared some characteristic or had a similar experience, then that means X and Y are identical in any aspect or respect you feel like asserting -- that's how typology appears to me.

[@BrianGondo]

@@patrickbarnes9874 that's never true even for typological arguments about Christ

[@Deto4508]

@@patrickbarnes9874 There’s definitely ways in which that can be but I do think Suan brought more than just a vague typological argument here

[@kyrptonite1825]

It is a really good typological argument though, especially when you realize the Jewish background of it. We know the Matthew verse about Peter is a reference, a typology, of Eliakim in Isaiah. But I wanna explain. God says he would give the keys to the House of David, or the Davidic Kingdom to Eliakim. He was not king of Israel, yet he acted in the kings stead, and had second authority over all Israel only under the king himself. God says he would give the keys of the kingdom to Eliakim, which is what Jesus says He will give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, the New Israel, and Messianic Kingdom, to Peter. In the Talmud, this is also seen as the Keys to the Temple, so Eliakim was literally given spiritual authority and kingly authority over Israel. He was given priestly garments and a kingly robe, emphasizing not only his kingly role but his priestly as well. In Jewish thought at the time of Jesus, bind meant to prohibit, and loose meant to allow. Jesus gave this authority to Peter specifically, saying these specific words in a Jewish world, before the other Apostles, indicating a special type of authority given to Peter alone to do this. God also mentions Elikiam was supposed to be a father to Israel, the Pope is the holy father, and Pope is essentially “papa”. We also see Elikiam’s role is an office. God gives him an office to be passed down, not just a title. And what we see is that Peter and the Papacy is the same way. We also know that in the Talmud, the Jews in sorrow over being evil, three the keys to the temple into heaven, the sky, and it was though a Hand took them. And God in the Old Testament Promises the Messiah will restore the Judges of Israel, etc. Setting up a New Kingdom. Also, when we look at what Jesus says, he names Peter “Kepha”. And then He says something like, you are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my Church. The foundational stone in the Temple was where the priest would pour the blood of the Yom Kippur Sacrifice onto. It was a foundation of the Temple, which is kind of like a prefigurement of the Church. So, this all means so much to a first century Jew, that you wouldn’t understand unless you read it in context. I mean also, the Jews had God, but God still chose Moses to rule over them, and Moses still had judges, kind of like Bishops. The Jews had a three tier priesthood, with a High Priest, which goes into the Temple, a priest, and a Levite, just as Catholics have a Pope, Bishops, and a priest. The Priests offered Sacrifice and atoned for sins, just as the Catholic priesthood offers the one Sacrifice of Jesus, the Eucharist, onto the Altar, during the Mass. They also are the ones through whom the Sacrament of Reconciliation is done. Jesus even references a “seat of Moses” Talmudic Tradition not found in the Old Testament, but that was found in Jewish oral tradition, which stated Moses had a seat of succession, which fell to the Pharisees, and a literal chair that followed the Jews around in the desert. That’s why we say the Pope speaks from the “Chair of Peter”, when speaking infallibly. Jesus straight up tells those around Him to obey the teachings of the Pharisees, because they sit on the seat of Moses, which was a succession of Mosss tradition not found in the OT. We Catholics have a Tradition of succesion of the Apostles.

[@kyrptonite1825]

Also, adding onto it Eliakim was called a steward, just as Peter was called to be a steward of the Church. Peter was called to be leader, as Jesus said to feed his sheep, and we even see Peter’s name is always listed for at, the earliest Christians, disciples under the Apostles, spoke of the Bishops this way, and also Jesus also tells Peter specifically in one instance satan is trying to sift you all like wheat, but Jesus says he would pray specifically for Peter, to strengthen his brothers.

[@aajaifenn]

Great Debate Dr Gavin . Love your work !!

[@benjamindavies2095]

Thanks for a great debate from both sides. I realised, growing up protestant, that I've been dismissing a caricature of catholic beliefs rather than their actual beliefs. Time to go do some more learning!

[@drewmiller2613]

I agree. I'm actually a former Lutheran (now Catholic), and until I started questioning my (former) protestant beliefs I had no idea how much I didn't know not just about the Catholic church but even Lutheranism and Protestantism. I had always believed that the Lutheran church was the true church by my ignorance and obliviousness and now that I have much more knowledge my position obviously has changed.

[@Convexhull210]

@@drewmiller2613 I am a settled Protestant (SBC) and am not convinced RC or Orthodox.

[@princessc660]

@@Convexhull210 As a Protestant I’ve decided to join the Catholic Church. For the following reasons. Relying on scripture alone doesn’t make no sense. During the first century there was no Bible. Christians relied on what leaders off the church told them and the letters of the apostles but there was no biblical cannon. The church had the number one authority. The first about 300 years of Christianity there was no set biblical cannon. The church had authority. The biblical cannon comes from the Catholic Church so it’s their book. The oldest bible we have is from the 4th century. So the first three centuries people relied on the church. God himself didn’t pick the cannon it was the Catholic Church. You trust the Catholic Church to tell you what books are the word of God but reject other beliefs? If the Catholic Church is wrong in areas it would make no sense for you to accept they have the word of God right. To reject the Catholic Church you need to reject their book the Bible. As long as you accept their bible you are under the Catholic Church authority. The original bible the apocrypha books in it until the 16th century until Luther chose to remove it. Protestants have changed the Bible by removing books. What gives Luther the right? The Bible cannon was picked by the early Christian leaders in the Catholic Church. These people were taught by people who learned from the original disciples then centuries later Protestants believe a man who never learned from the disciples or the disciples disciples. In conclusion why do Protestants trust the Catholic Church bible but not the Catholic Church. It was the church authority that picked the Bible cannon so the church has authority over the Bible because before the Bible was put together people only relied on the church. The Catholic Church is the only one that can interpret the Bible they put it together. If it weren’t for the Catholic Church Protestants wouldn’t even have their religion. You’re entire religion is based off the Bible the Catholic Church put together. To reject Catholicism you need to reject their book.

[@joecastillo8798]

​​@@drewmiller2613 Drew, Perhaps these quotes from Jesus might help. ▪︎Matthew 16:18 18. And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. When Jesus says "My Church", He's referring to just one. Unity is a divine quality. The following reaffirms it: ▪︎JOHN 17:21-23 21. so that they MAY ALL BE ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may BE ONE, as WE ARE ONE, 23. I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to PERFECTION AS ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. God bless.

[@sammcrae8892]

They praise me with their mouths, but their hearts are far from me. Depart from me, I never knew you. If you really examine the history of the Roman Catholic Church, and not just the ones written by them, and really look at what the Popes and the RCC have done throughout history, you might have to question the authenticity of the RCC and their claims to infallibility and Apostolic derivation. The blood of the Bogomils, Albigensians, Waldenses, Hussites, and many other groups of believers (they were NOT HERETICS) Many others were martyrs murdered by the Catholic Church, and the fact that they forbade the Bible to anyone outside the clergy for over a thousand years is very indicative of their apostate condition. When you read Revelation, the description of the woman who rides the beast dressed in scarlet and purple with a golden chalice full of abominations that is also referred to as being a city on seven hills; do you really need a better description of the Church of Rome and the world domination that it has sought for centuries? I grew up among Catholics, and have many Catholic friends that are dear to me, but I disagree with their doctrine and beliefs. Please study the Bible and see what it says. Examine the scriptures closely, and even though the RCC dismisses the Bible as the primary authority for the Church in our time, nevertheless, Jesus Christ considered the scriptures as His Words, and that they were authoritative. I do not see the Roman Catholic Church in the Scriptures. Neither are most of their doctrines. 🙏✝️👑✝️🙏 ​@@joecastillo8798

[@Miatpi]

I felt like it was quite even during the rebuttals but Suan definitely took a lead during the cross exams. It become pretty clear that the basis for the typology is there and Gavins response was mainly that its not explicit enough considering the weight of a papal office. Which is a stance i think is respectable, though not a strong rebuttal of Suans case. Nonetheless, a fantastic job overall from both sides. Gavin is incredibly humble and honest, and pleasent listening to. Thanks guys for making this! This was a blast!

[@Mr_A1-37]

Typology is always based on established doctrine. It never creates or forms new doctrine. Suan is too ambitious with these typologies and like Gavin pointed out in 1:04:01 ,without boundaries or some explicit textual support there is no limit to the types of interpretation one may infer from this exercise.

[@LetsTalkChristMinistries]

@@Mr_A1-37 🎯 I felt the same way. Way too generous with the application of typology.

[@Miatpi]

@@Mr_A1-37 the doctrine of the papacy isn't based on the typology either, so I don't think i see your point there. I agree that typology can run amok without any boundaries, and I don't think suans case is without textual support: Revelations 3:7 explicitly connects the authority of Christ to the one of Eliakim (not saying its the same, but that there is a connection) spoken of in isaiah 22:22. So there are at least some typology going on with respect to the authority of Christ and the keys to the house of David, which by my lights should be necessary to get an argument for the papacy going.

[@neptali_allane]

@@Mr_A1-37 1:04:04 The typology, allusions, and parallelisms in terms of the language used in accordance with the context, is hard to deny. Choosing reject it is to willfully ignore or deny divine revelation in Scripture. Dr. Ortlund is correct in pointing out the Pope's military leadership role, being the successor of Peter, who is indentified as the new Joshua. One of the Pope's roles, assigned by God by virtue of Peter's identity as the new Joshua, is to lead the faithful in the cosmic battle against the ultimate enemy of God's Kingdom- Evil. Although the war has already been won by Christ through His incarnation, cross and resurrection, the faithful's personal battles continue on. We are all called to be a "𝗴𝗼𝗼𝗱 𝘀𝗼𝗹𝗱𝗶𝗲𝗿 𝗼𝗳 𝗖𝗵𝗿𝗶𝘀𝘁 𝗝𝗲𝘀𝘂𝘀" (Tim 2:3) and to persevere till the end for God and His kingdom's greater glory. Notice the military language used to describe the armors we Christians are supposed to equip ourselves with as we battle the forces of evil, being soldiers of Christ: (Ephesians 6:10‭-‬17) Finally, 𝗱𝗿𝗮𝘄 𝘆𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝘀𝘁𝗿𝗲𝗻𝗴𝘁𝗵 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗟𝗼𝗿𝗱 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗺𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁𝘆 𝗽𝗼𝘄𝗲𝗿. 𝗣𝘂𝘁 𝗼𝗻 the 𝙖𝙧𝙢𝙤𝙧 𝙤𝙛 𝙂𝙤𝙙 𝘀𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗺𝗮𝘆 𝗯𝗲 𝗮𝗯𝗹𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝘀𝘁𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗳𝗶𝗿𝗺 𝗮𝗴𝗮𝗶𝗻𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗮𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗰𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝘃𝗶𝗹. For 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝘀𝘁𝗿𝘂𝗴𝗴𝗹𝗲 𝗶𝘀 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗳𝗹𝗲𝘀𝗵 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗯𝗹𝗼𝗼𝗱 𝙗𝙪𝙩 with the 𝗽𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗰𝗶𝗽𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝗶𝗲𝘀, with the 𝗽𝗼𝘄𝗲𝗿𝘀, with the 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗹𝗱 𝗿𝘂𝗹𝗲𝗿𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗽𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗱𝗮𝗿𝗸𝗻𝗲𝘀𝘀, with the 𝗲𝘃𝗶𝗹 𝘀𝗽𝗶𝗿𝗶𝘁𝘀 in the heavens. Therefore, 𝗽𝘂𝘁 𝗼𝗻 the 𝙖𝙧𝙢𝙤𝙧 𝙤𝙛 𝙂𝙤𝙙, that you may be able to resist on the evil day and, having done everything, to 𝗵𝗼𝗹𝗱 𝘆𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗴𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱. So 𝘀𝘁𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗳𝗮𝘀𝘁 with your 𝗹𝗼𝗶𝗻𝘀 𝗴𝗶𝗿𝗱𝗲𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗿𝘂𝘁𝗵, 𝗰𝗹𝗼𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗱 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁𝗲𝗼𝘂𝘀𝗻𝗲𝘀𝘀 as a 𝗯𝗿𝗲𝗮𝘀𝘁𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗲, and 𝘆𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗳𝗲𝗲𝘁 𝘀𝗵𝗼𝗱 in 𝗿𝗲𝗮𝗱𝗶𝗻𝗲𝘀𝘀 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗴𝗼𝘀𝗽𝗲𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝗽𝗲𝗮𝗰𝗲. In all circumstances, 𝗵𝗼𝗹𝗱 𝗳𝗮𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗮𝘀 𝗮 𝘀𝗵𝗶𝗲𝗹𝗱, 𝘁𝗼 𝗾𝘂𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗵 𝗮𝗹𝗹 [the] 𝗳𝗹𝗮𝗺𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗿𝗿𝗼𝘄𝘀 of the 𝗲𝘃𝗶𝗹 𝗼𝗻𝗲. And 𝘁𝗮𝗸𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗵𝗲𝗹𝗺𝗲𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝘀𝗮𝗹𝘃𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 and the 𝘀𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗱 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗦𝗽𝗶𝗿𝗶𝘁, which is the 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗱 𝗼𝗳 𝗚𝗼𝗱. (Ephesians 6:10‭-‬17) We have to recognize the bigger picture. Dr. Ortlund should pray for eyes to see, so that he can recognize more clearly the typology presented to him by Suan. Just because Dr. Ortlund does not yet have the eyes to fully see the overall structure of God's Kingdom, and just because he could not yet comprehend God's divine revelation as it was entrusted to His chosen disciples/apostles and their successors, does not mean the typology is not there nor does it mean that the typology has gone amok.

[@LetsTalkChristMinistries]

@@neptali_allane What are you saying these verses highlight?

[@krenomichael1812]

Great debate/discussion. Two excellent young men!

[@JamesPullman]

Really enjoyed both of these presenters. Clear respect for each other & the opposing position. Very clear communicators.

[@koppite9600]

There is nothing to respect. One is outside the church of St Peter and that's it. How do you respect something lost? You run away from it lest it takes you with it

[@nevin8604]

@@koppite9600 woah, church of who? Glad i am part of church of Jesus Christ and not saint Peter. Even Peter was the member of church of Jesus Christ. And btw, i am a saint.

[@haronsmith8974]

@@nevin8604 When you perform miracles and cease to sin than you can call yourself a saint.

[@mangographics225]

What a wonderful debate, full of information by informative and positive reflection. Thanks

[@depicklator3526]

Fantastic debate! I think both sides did well

[@jamesmisfeldt264]

Two bright, respectful guys. Very good, illuminating debate.

[@John-um7lz]

Do a part two!

[@aure818v]

Oh man, Suan. I seen one of his debates last year and he is very well informed. I'm glad this video put up on my recommendations.

[@martincorneille7998]

Thanks for the great debate. The issue of the Eliakim typology had never appeared so decisive in this argument to me before, so thank you a lot for stressing and elightning this point so extensively. However, I am a bit surprised that following very explicit indications by early CHurch fathers of Rome's Church supremacy and guarding of the true faith were not mentioned, especially given that Gavin made a key argument out of it : In the 3rd century, Saint Cyprian of Carthage: “Would heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come” (Epistulae 59 (55), 14, [256 A.D.]). Now the quote by the same Cyprian of all bishops" equal in honor and power" does not seem contradictory to me, in the sense that all bishops are autonomous in ordinarily administering their respective diocese, while Rome has a special charisma of doctrinal infallibility and exceptional, last resort supreme jurisdictio. In the 2nd century, Irenaeus of Lyons : “But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]). In 5th century, Pope Sixtus III : “all know that to assent to [the Bishop of Rome’s] decision is to assent to St. Peter, who lives in his successors and whose faith fails not.” Pope Leo the Great, 5th century: “The dispensation of the truth therefore abides, and the blessed Peter, preserving in the strength of the rock, which he has received, has not abandoned the helm of the Church which he undertook to control. For he was ordained before the rest in such a way that from his being called the rock, from his being pronounced the foundation, from his being constituted doorkeeper (Key-holder) of the kingdom of heaven, from his authority as umpire to bind and loose, whose judgments shall retain their validity in heaven - from all these mystical titles we might know the nature of his association with Christ. And still today he more fully and effectually performs what is entrusted to him and with him, through whom he has been glorified. And so if anything is rightly done and rightly decreed by us, if anything is won from the mercy of God by our daily supplications, it is of his work and merit whose power lives and whose authority prevails in his See” Pope Vigilius (538) (letter to Profuturus of Braga): “To no one well or ill informed is it doubtful that the Roman Church is the foundation and the mould of the Churches (fundamentum et forma sit ecclesiarum), from which no one of right belief is ignorant that all Churches have derived their beginning. Since, though the election of all the Apostles was equal, yet a pre-eminence over the rest was granted to blessed Peter, whence he is also called Cephas, being the head and beginning of all the Apostles: and what hath gone before in the head, must follow in the members. Wherefore the holy Roman Church, through his merit consecrated by the Lord’s voice and established by the authority of the holy Fathers, holds the Primacy over all Churches, to which as well the highest concerns of Bishops, their causes, and complaints, as the greater questions of the Churches, are ever to be referred, as to the head. For he who knows himself to be set over others, should not object to one being placed over himself. For the Church itself, which is the first, has bestowed its authority on the rest of the Churches with this condition, that they be called to a part of its solicitude, not to the fulness of its power. Whence the causes of all Bishops who appeal to the Apostolic See, and the proceedings in all greater causes, are known to be reserved to that holy See; especially as in all these its decision must always be awaited: and if any Bishops attempts to resist this course, let him know that he will give account to that holy See not without endangering his own rank.”

[@Mygoalwogel]

Yeah, I thought Gavin gave that point way too much attention. It's completely out of nowhere.

[@beverlypecsoy4383]

Wow! great cross-examination by Dr Gavin. I appreciate Suan's knowledge but Gavin is sharp

[@tonyl3762]

That quote by Cyprian appears to be false or at least very inexact. I tried to look it up myself. The actual quote is: "After such things as these, moreover, they still dare - a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics- to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access. But what was the reason of their coming and announcing the making of the pseudo-bishop in opposition to the bishops?" Letter 54:14 Despite his heated dispute with Pope Stephen over re-baptism, Cyprian is actually good evidence for Catholic claims, but I'd stop using that "quote" you gave.

[@martincorneille7998]

@@tonyl3762 thanks, I stand corrected! The true version is perhaps even more useful for apologetics as it backs the arguably less well documented papal claims to supreme jurisdiction and being the visible fundament of Churches' unity. The other quotes back the infallibility claims

[@tonyl3762]

@@martincorneille7998 Along that line actually of supreme jurisdiction, I came across the Catholic Encyclopedia's "incontestable" claim that Cyprian's Letter 66 "is here explaining to the pope why he ventured to interfere, and that he attributes to the pope the power of deposing Marcanus and ordering a fresh election." Letter 66 from Cyprian to Pope Stephen (New Advent website): "Wherefore *it behooves you to write a very copious letter to our fellow bishops* appointed in Gaul, not to suffer any longer that Marcian, froward and haughty, and hostile to the divine mercy and to the salvation of the brotherhood, should insult our assembly, because he does not yet seem to be excommunicated by us; in that he now for a long time boasts and announces that, adhering to Novatian, and following his frowardness, he has separated himself from our communion; although Novatian himself, whom he follows, has formerly been excommunicated, and judged an enemy to the Church.... *Let letters be directed by you* into the province and to the people abiding at Arles, *by which, Marcian being excommunicated, another may be substituted in his place,* and Christ's flock, which even to this day is contemned as scattered and wounded by him, may be gathered together.... dearest brother, the body of priests is abundantly large, joined together by the bond of mutual concord, and the link of unity; so that *if any one of our college should try to originate heresy, and to lacerate and lay waste Christ's flock, others may help,* and as it were, as useful and merciful shepherds, gather together the Lord's sheep into the flock.... For the glorious honour of our predecessors, the blessed martyrs Cornelius and Lucius, must be maintained, whose memory as we hold in honour, *much more ought you, dearest brother, to honour and cherish with your weight and authority, since you have become their vicar and successor* .... *Intimate plainly to us who has been substituted* at Arles in the place of Marcian, that we may know to whom to direct our brethren, and to whom we ought to write."

[@Azkahamm]

Great, cordial debate.

[@seeker3599]

The speaker's credibility is directly proportional to the amount of books in the background camera shot.

[@duncescotus2342]

Lovely debate. Good work to the host, and the two brothers. Christianity in action!

[@shepherdson6189]

God bless your work Suan! Very insightful presentation of the parallelism in support of the typology between Matthew 16:19 and Isaiah 22:22. Godspeed in discerning your vocation either entering the religious life or pursuing graduate studies.

[@ttff-bd2yf]

If you read Isaiah 22 it literally tells you who Isaiah is talking about

[@claudiaperfetti7694]

Shepherdson, first rule for accepting a type in the Bible. It has to be taught in the NT. Then you can propose similarities and parallelism all you want, but it won't be a type. There are figures, illustrations, examples, etc. But types are defined in the Scriptures.

[@shepherdson6189]

@@claudiaperfetti7694 says who? Sola scriptura wasn't even taught in NT. If that rule of faith even had a type in the OT, then the apostles clearly went against it when they decided not to burden the Gentiles with circumcision.

[@bobizzle1605]

Isaiah 22 clearly foreshadows the steward of Christ’s Kingdom having the keys. It couldn’t be any more clear than that.

[@tonywallens217]

Very skilled debate.

[@JeanRausis]

Suan is so impressive. Gavin is a better communicator and it can feel like he's on top, but if you listen carefully, Suan is going so much more in depth and giving so much information condensed that you would need time to unpack everything. What a great demonstration.

[@Nolongeraslave]

Could also be that Suan overwhelms the listener with too much information as he mixes tradition, Scriptures, typology and other Catholic interpretations that may not be necessary right.

[@geraldhunt669]

Gavin effectively uses denial and doubt. He doesn't really have arguments. He doesn't really have an alternative. He just says it is typology run amuk by decree of Gavin.

[@cooperthatguy1271]

@@NolongeraslaveI agree lots of suans statements especially in his opening lie upon catholic presuppositions of succession, Jesus founding the bishopric, and the incorrect reflection of type/anti type. As much as I respect suans great knowledge and desire for truth I think he gets caught up in the intrinsic guilt in catholicism to fear consideration of these topics (due to countless anathemas

[@joecastillo8798]

​@@cooperthatguy1271 Cooper, Remember these words: ▪︎MATTHEW 16:17-19 17. And in response, Jesus said to him: “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father, who is in heaven. 18. And I say to you, that you are Peter, and UPON THIS ROCK I will build MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hell SHALL NOT PREVAIL against it. 19. And I will GIVE YOU THE KEYS of the kingdom of heaven. And WHATEVER you shall BIND on earth shall be BOUND, even in heaven. And WHATEVER you shall release on earth shall be released, even in heaven.” Such authority does not end wirh Peter, the biblical and historical evidence confirms that is ongoing, according to: ▪︎MATTHEW, 28:19-20 19. GO therefore and MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20. and teaching them to obey EVERYTHING that I have commanded you. And remember, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, TO THE END OF THE AGE.” Such promise confirms the permanent presence o Jesus until the end of times, guiding each successor of Peter and all the other Apostles to the truth. May God bless your discernment.

[@fantasia55]

Gavin is a clever manipulator.

[@Adam-ue2ig]

Suan really turns those pages loudly...lol.

[@szilardfineascovasa6144]

For more emphasis.

[@jakeracick2301]

Suan, way to affirm my faith in the Church!

[@peter_hobbs]

totally agree!

[@xintimidate]

So your faith is based on human tradition and not God's word?

[@charliefrostcharlie]

@@xintimidate tradition is something which is handed down, isn't scripture itself also handed down?

[@xintimidate]

@@charliefrostcharlie Do you know what a spectrum is or nuance? Why do Caths/Orths always assume tradition equal good. Its ridiculous. And I didnt say all tradition is bad I clearly said pagan tradition. The only standard is the Bible.

[@charliefrostcharlie]

@@xintimidate depends on what do you mean by "good" . And no you didn't write pagan traditions, you wrote "human traditions", stop saying "clear" when you evidently did not write what you said now. If you say the "ONLY" standard is the Bible, can you show that from the Bible?

[@katzenGEGENrechts]

Suan is so based. He does not even flinch, when being cross-examined. "If you have a problem with that, you should talk to Moses." And "Yes, why shouldn't we change the Scripture to appease our modern western sentiments instead of listening to the word of God?" Seems like a very good idea! After all who is Moses if measured by the golden standard of the post-modern sentiment? This kind of argument doesn't go very far against people with the courage to stand up for what they believe.

[@ClipPerry]

This a great debate, both are really respectful to each other. As a protestant, I really appreciate Gavin Ortlund for his very clear statements. Love his calm presentation. I wish Capturing Christianity will get Matt Slick of CARM on future debate too. Blessings!

[@tijojoseph3315]

These men have so much knowledge that it puts me to shame. I need to study the scriptures more often.

[@lauromartinez8948]

If the typology is so important that you can even forgive sins… YOU NEED a textual warrant. Otherwise ANYTHING can be a typology.

[@KillmanPit]

1:16:00 I do love the honesty right here. Cheers

[@EC-sl9dm]

Saun really persuaded me in a lot of ways. Still not all I need, but closer to understanding the view

[@Mygoalwogel]

I agree with Gavin's point that Suan's arguments don't have a basis in early church sermons and commentary, but I'll keep listening. Maybe Suan will have some sources. He sure seems to favor recent scholarship.

[@Mygoalwogel]

Suan kind of debunked himself saying that the type can refer to more than one individual. That's exactly why Cyprian and Jerome say that all bishops sit on Peter's throne.

[@dman7668]

I don't think it's so much that he is debunking himself as he is just admitting his arguments absolutely have their weaknesses, Gavin himself does the same thing, which adds a certain authenticity to their dialogue.

[@globyois]

Why didn’t Paul mention the Papacy in his instructions to the churches? Excellent question - absolutely IMPOTENT answer.

[@mercibeaucoup2639]

Is like saying, why didn't Jesus Christ my God, Lord and Savior write the Bible.

[@globyois]

@@mercibeaucoup2639 He DID write the Bible! “The word of God” GET IT?!

[@ClipPerry]

@@mercibeaucoup2639 He did write it, through His chosen people. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness”

[@davionknight521]

​@@mercibeaucoup2639😮‍💨🤦‍♂️

[@LetsTalkChristMinistries]

Great debate. I'm Protestant, so I found myself agreeing with Gavin, as he made clear concise points and his arguments were more convincing. God bless both of them.

[@Ericviking2019]

@@eternalbyzantium262 this is a disgusting comment, go confess your sin

[@educationalporpoises9592]

@@eternalbyzantium262 I am inquiring into Orthodoxy and I do not think that the comments you have been making in this comment section about Protestantism are savory or useful. I don't like Protestantism myself, but imagine if a Protestant came up and said that "Orthodoxy is of the devil whose Saints are pagan, polytheistic deities"? It wouldn't make you want to listen to anything they'd have to say about Protestantism. Please stop.

[@matthewbroderick6287]

Let's talk, Gavin says there is no one leader among the 12 Apostles, yet, Peter is mentioned over 195 times, and the next of the 12, John, at 30 times. So much for equality! Jesus prayed for Peter alone to strengthen his brethren and Jesus renamed Simon as Cephas, which is Aramaic for rock. The same Church authority in Peter the rock and sole key holder, who stood up and put an end to all the debating at the council of Jerusalem, since Scripture alone could not, as Peter authoritatively ruled that circumcision of the Flesh was no longer necessary, even though Holy Scripture said that it was. Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@nevin8604]

@@eternalbyzantium262 is it disgusting, because you want to add man made tradition that they restrict?

[@LetsTalkChristMinistries]

@@matthewbroderick6287 Respectfully, a lot is being inferred by you, imho. Christ calling Peter the rock was after the declaration of Peter calling Him Christ. Upon _that_ truth, he'd build His church. Just a clear reading of the text gave me that, even before I was a believer.

[@prolelog]

Love the points both brothers made, and with that rare dint of charity we often don’t see on the Internet. Dr Ortlund, in my opinion, is the gold standard when it comes to presenting forth the “Protestant” argument. What concerns me, however, is which? Given the variety if interpretations of Protestantism writ large, it seems to me that the particular methodological tools Dr Ortlund is using beg the question: which? That concerns me, because I do not think other Protestant brothers and sisters would make similar arguments. And given that there are so many denominations, so many occupying the pulpit, there is something about the 1,500-year history of Catholicism and it’s doctrinal development that makes me much more spiritually at ease. God bless everyone and thank you, Cameron, for hosting this extremely important debate!

[@Miatpi]

Well put.

[@arminius504]

@@GS-cj7rf Spot on

[@Adam-ue2ig]

Quite true and eloquent. The Word of God never changes while theoretically tomorrow the "Pope/magisterium" could declare Mary Co Mediatrix (5th Marian Dogma which is being pushed by some RC).

[@sotem3608]

I'm having trouble with the same question of which. There's so many opinions and interpretations; it's a real difficult ocean to traverse.

[@RenanGuilherme-xn5gj]

@@GS-cj7rf Well, the canonization of the bible is a dogma! We as Catholics do not change the truth, dogmas are an affirmation of what the apostles always believed but not what was explicitly stated in the bible. An example of this is the trinity, can you quote an unmistakable passage that leads to this conclusion? On the other hand, you Protestants changed the truth, you reversed the order, first the church and then the bible, because the second is dependent on the first. Afterwards, you cannot have unity in baptism, communion, the Lord's day and the question of iconoclasm. Now that is change. Sorry for bringing this up so late.

[@jayguison480]

I love and admire that Suan is very honest and does not shy away from possibility it could go either way. Thank you for that.

[@pepeinno9336]

The attitude of Dr Ortland when defending sola scriptura, namely that a doctrine does not have to be explicit in the Bible, are not extended to his reasoning against Catholic doctrines extracted from Scripture. He keeps saying there is too much stretch. This seems to be double standard given his strategy in defence of sola scriptura.

[@joshuakepfer8140]

Great, clarifying points on both sides. I'm still not Catholic, but understand their reasoning a bit more now.

[@joelmontero9439]

¡Viva Cristo Rey y la Virgen de los ángeles!

[@redbird9000]

Repent “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” ****Revelation 21:14**** • Peter was no different than the others. We can see here in ****Revelations 21:14**** that Peter was still an apostle, not a pope. John saw a vision of the New Jerusalem, so if Peter was a pope, John would have said I saw the foundation of the city walls in layers of 11 apostles and the one pope. ------------------ - Eamon Duffy, an Irish historian, said, “There is, therefore, nothing directly approaching a papal theory in the pages of the New Testament,” and “from all indications, there was no single bishop of Rome for almost a century after the deaths of the apostles”. - Eamon Duffy was a Catholic Historian and he basically refutes that *Matthew 16:18* alludes to or supports papal authority. He said it without any confusion that the New Testament scriptures do not support the papacy. Therefore Peter was not singled out. When Christ said, “upon this Rock, I build my church”…. to say that he was proclaiming a papacy through a lineage of Peter is speculation. - If that were true, there would be other scriptures to cross-reference the theory of Pontification. Paul would have had to check in with Peter if Peter was the Pope. Instead, Paul went to see Ananias to receive his sight. - In ****Galatians 2:11-21**** we can see Paul putting Peter in check for treating the Gentiles differently based upon their state of circumcision and Peter’s fear of criticism. - If ****Matthew 16:18**** was Peter’s proclamation of pontification, that leaves a huge issue. The biggest problem of all is that if Peter is the rock, then the scripture wouldn’t say that Christ is the rock. That’s a contradiction. We can’t build our faith on contradictions. The Rock is spiritual, not earthly. ****1 Corinthians 10:4**** - and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. ------------------ ****Matthew 16:18**** The Catholic Church says that tradition holds that Peter is the first pope and the rock, and that this scripture is proclaiming the Papacy. ****1 Corinthians 3:11**** / ****1 Corinthians 10:4**** The word of God says that Christ is the spiritual Rock. A Rock for the wise builder. ------------------ - I’m choosing to go with the Word of God, not the traditions of men. There is no evidence that Peter ever even went to Rome. Christ is the Rock, Peter is a stone, and we are all stones. ****1 Peter 2:4-8**** ❤❤❤❤❤

[@mdg6117]

¡Amen Amen, Que Viva!

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

An enjoyable debate. I'd say both side did well putting for the argumentation. That said, though Dr. Ortlund somewhat touched on it I would have liked to have seen him stress and emphasize the importance that doctrine MUST be built upon the clear teaching of Scripture and not something as abstract like Typology,. ESPECIALLY one with as much significance as the Papacy and even more so Papal Infallibility. Secondly, while I think Dr. Ortlund, again, touched on and mentioned Gal. 2:9, I would have liked to have seen him devote more time and attention to Gal. 2:7-8 and ask Mr,. Sonna what his exegesis of the passage is and specifically how he defines "kathōs" (G2531) in v.7/ "On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles)" (Gal_2:7-8) That seems to me to be the lid on the coffin. I'd be interested in hearing how Mr. Sonna gets around the clear meaning of that text,. Overall, a good debate but I didn't see either side really load up the bases and then hit a Grand Slam. I have to come back and add a comment because of something Dr. Sonna says during the Q&A. First, he makes a grave error by claiming that it is the Church that gets to decide "these things" referring to the binding and loosing. Uh, no, it's not. It's God who gets to decide and the Church gets to choose to obey or disobey. Follow or go astray. Secondly and MUCH more importantly, Sonna says he would "never abandon the Church" no matter how difficult it gets. THAT is a EXTREMELY dangerous position to hold. Many believe it will be the Pope who becomes the False Prophet during the Great Tribulation. Putting one's eschatology aside, he claim begs the question, "Would you still hold to that even if the Pope pronounces ex-cathedra an obvious, indisputable, easily-recognizable heresy as orthodox and acceptable? And since I'm back I'll jus add his as well. I'd like to ask Sonna and every other Catholic out there that wants to tout Unity in the Body...exactly how do you suppose that is to be done when 109 anathemas were pronounced upon Protestants by the Council of Trent and Vatican II and have NEVER been withdrawn and never will because to do so would destroy RCC doctrines?

[@CoreyLennox]

I personally did not find Suan’s arguments convincing. I think Gavin’s closing statement really hit the nail on the head… Suan’s interpretations felt like trying to read something into the text that isn’t there, using a somewhat vague typology that wouldn’t get us to a papacy even if we accepted it. Just my takeaway, I know others probably got a lot more out of his line of reasoning than I did.

[@yancy3987]

Well done mr. Suan.

[@hopelessstrlstfan181]

Reason & Theology is the best & Capturing Christianity isn't exactly chopped liver either! Thanks for hosting this debate. Gavin is by far my fav Protestant debater (w/ Dr Flowers a close second) & Suan is starting to rise very high in my ranking of Catholic debaters. Luv his work on the Papacy.

[@RobRod305]

I find it very very ironic that the main backing of Gavin’s arguments are patristic consensus

[@wilsonw.t.6878]

Well then you have no idea and have never read Protestant theologians especially Lutheran Reformed and Anglican. Moreso, it's not consensus but historical evidence. There's no universal consensus and they wrote many times to judge their work by scripture.

[@koppite9600]

@@wilsonw.t.6878 lutheran from luther who hurled feces at the devil?

[@workinpromo]

@@koppite9600 Lol

[@michaeldonohue8870]

And the even more ironic thing is he doesn't even have a consensus haha!

[@martincorneille7998]

Especially given that very early in the Church are the papal authority's primacy over other churches and apostolic succession acknowledged (saint Clement to the Corinthians, saint Ireneaus in the Easter controversy, saint Ignatius of Antioch).

[@PInk77W1]

There are literally 100s of videos on KZbin debating whether the pope has authority and 0 videos on KZbin debating whether Gavin has authority. Why ?

[@codytempleton3512]

Because Gavin never created a doctrine out of obscure typography with little textual context or evidence that he has supreme power and authority and then left a wake of blood, violence and anguish in his path all throughout the Middle Ages. Christ never charged his followers to behave like authoritative barbarians to conquer and burn anyone who disagrees with them. That’s just one major reason the papacy is null and void.

[@PInk77W1]

@@codytempleton3512 Gavin has no line of succession either The Bible in Mathew 1 has a line of succession. In Acts 1 we read His OFFICE let another man take. Gavin don’t. Name one Catholic doctrine that states We have to act like barbarian conquerers ? You can’t. The first 38 popes were klllld in office. Tons have disagreed with the pope and not been burned. Billy Graham preached in The church of Pope John Paul ll the day John Paul ll was elected pope. Billy Graham don’t agree with the pope. You’re so far off as per usual

[@kadeshswanson3991]

Yo where are the downloadable documents of their opening statements? I would love to be able to read them on the go 🙂

[@rolandovelasquez135]

At 2:01 so is the papacy there from the beginning or is it embryonic evolution? Choose one or the other.

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

To me, the primacy of the bishop of Rome is a matter of common sense, based on the certainty that Jesus was (is) not stupid. The disciples were fighting among themselves for supremacy even during His life on earth, right behind His back. But He prays to the Father for them to be one.... Would He leave His Church without a clear supreme living authority to serve as rock and guarantee of unity? If the Protestant Reformation made something crystal clear-a crystal that even today keeps breaking in thousands of denominations-is that, without a final authority, unity is impossible.

[@junkim5853]

But the Catholic Church fails to bring unity either, they have 253 denominations, and the interpretation of the magisterial authority is actually subjective at best. The Catholic dogmas do not go over every doctrine hence why there is room for subjective interpretation in doctrine which can lead to division. If you think your Church is immune to sin you are in denial. The Catholic Church like any Church is a body that consists of nothing but sinners. Paul has said that sin has entered his church and we can clearly see Peter and the 12 disciples' sins. To think that through a man can unite a body of Christian is questionable, a man is a sinner regardless if he is a pope or not. It's up to the powers of the holy spirit and the will of God to unite Christians together as one. Now, will our triune God unite all Christians across the world through the Roman Catholic Church? Perhaps, but can we know for absolute certainty? My answer is no.

[@jericawilson1484]

It alarms me that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures aren't enough of an authority for Catholics. Yeah, you're right, but Jesus didn't leave us with nothing. That was like the whole point of Pentecost and Paul's letters. Why do we need an elevated sinner to intercede and guide us when the New Testament made it clear that we are the new priesthood? I mean no disrespect to you or the Pope, I'm just genuinely trying to understand it. It seems so contrary to the teachings of the New Testament.

[@bethanyann1060]

@@junkim5853 No Catholic claims that the pope is without sin or that the Church is without sin. I think you are confused about what papal infallibility means.

[@junkim5853]

@@bethanyann1060 well get proper context please I was responding to another person. He is trying to claim that the Catholic Church is united when in reality I believe they are not. Sometimes I doubt Catholics' understanding of sin and its nature because they think their Church is in unity when sin suggests otherwise. I know Papal infallibility you don't need to tell me at all. My point is it certainly won't be the Roman Bishop speaking without ex-cathedra that will unite Christians together. If papal infallibility is true perhaps all Christians would become united with the Roman Catholic Church but do I think all Christians can say this with absolute certainty? My answer is no.

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

@@jericawilson1484 Of course the Holy Scriptures are like the touchstone of all what we believe, and of course there's no higher guide than the Holy Spirit! But it is from the Holy Scriptures that we learn that Jesus didn't give us a sacred book to be the foundation of His religion. Like I said, Jesus is not stupid, and very well knows of our weaknesses. Mohammed left a Holy Book as the foundation for his religion, and soon after his death, the book started being interpreted to massacre each other among Muslims. We revere and seek the backing of the written Word of God, but we're not Muslims. And Mohamed was not Jesus. According to the Scriptures, Jesus didn't give us a Book for us to found a Church on it. He gave us a hierarchical Church founded directly by him during his lifetime on this earth, with a rock at its foundation. And whom did He chose? Among the twelve, He chose the most sinful of all after Judas, Simon whom He renamed as Peter, He called him "Satan" right away, and was the only one who denied Him, not once but three times, and yet, was charged with shepherding the sheep and was the one Jesus promised to pray for that his "faith will fail him not" so that he, once converted, would "strengthen" his "brothers in the faith." Why are we surprised when his successors sometimes sin and deny the Lord, and even behave like Satan? After Pentecost, the Holy Spirit inspired the hierarchical Church to give us the New Testament. On Pentecost, only the hierarchical Church received the Holy Spirit. I agree with you that we all share, by virtue of our Baptism, in the priesthood of Jesus. We call that "the common priesthood of the faithful." But Jesus instituted a ministerial priesthood, with powers and responsibilities to "forgive and retain sins" and to celebrate the Eucharistic sacrifice on behalf of all His priestly people: "do this in memory of me..."

[@Holypurity1928]

Do you still plan to post Suan’s opening statement?

[@tonywallens217]

What would Jesus be pointing to in “the keys” and “binding and loosing” if not the typological reference. What would I guess the “normal” interpretation be absent any typology?

[@EdwardGraveline]

Suan won

[@dovygoodguy1296]

I am not a Christian, but I am a serious student of religion and history. My own feeling about Rome is that it acquired a certain importance because of its political and cultural significance as the center of the Roman Empire for hundreds of years, and Christianity awarded a certain honorary position because of it. That's all. So the bishop or patriarch of Rome gradually sought greater authority leading to the schism and thereafter. But certainly those who take religion seriously realize the gap between Rome and Istanbul now is still far too great to bridge for unity.

[@WilliamFAlmeida]

Why can't I watch this in 1080p? Is this a patron-motivated ploy? Brilliant!

[@echomike8591]

I love them both. I noticed that Dr. Gavin always said "I don't think", "I see it as", or "in my personal opinion".

[@missouriblake]

The fact that Sonna was studying at Kansas State *almost* converted me to being a papist. However, learning that Ortlund drinks beer was compelling. So I remain Lutheran. However, what a great debate. EMAW.

[@Burberryharry]

Bro so true

[@imjustheretogrill4794]

I think a round table discussion with Suann, Gavin, a Catholic who really knows the church fathers, and a Protestant scholar on typology would be helpful. Gavin and Suan both have great strengths but I think they also have weaknesses that keep each from fully addressing the others arguments.

[@gfujigo]

Good points.

[@ProfYaffle]

I'd like to hear the debate between these men on Immaculate conception and transubstantiation and praying to saints. Two knowledgeable passionate intelligent gracious men discussing would help clarify the argument

[@joelmontero9439]

Cameron should bring Dr. Gaven Kerr on the show to talk about metaphysics

[@josephpotter227]

The Eucharist is everything the true presence of Christ under the veil of bread and wine and how he transformed the Passover into the Eucharist is key also the magesterium is not just a new covenant concept it existed in the old covenant thus it is plausible that it exists in the new also what about Protestantism is biblically and authentically defined as worship most evangelicals think that concert like jam sesh is authentic worship it’s not no where is this defined as worship in the Bible sacrifice is always what worship is defined as

[@loganross1861]

Great comment, thank you.

[@vladtheinhaler8940]

Both Catholics and many Protestant denominations are apostate churches. They consist of man made traditions and ignore the actual Bible.

[@jayguison480]

When Dr Ortland said “ I bet people who’s hearing this debate never even heard of Eliakim until it was use to depend the Papacy”my jaw dropped 😱 because the same thought came to my mind. Also when he mentioned Joshua’s role to control an army and fight and likened it to the Pope as false typology. This is by the best debate of this I heard so far. Both gentlemen did a great job.

[@c.s.froggis9982]

Suan, looking forward to your book on this. Have you looked into Peter as the new Joshua, as Jesus is a new (and greater) Moses?

[@valentinoserrano393]

He lost the debate

[@alexs.5107]

A great debate by two great minds. Suan is amazing given he is only a student.

[@neptali_allane]

Early Church fathers who recognized Peter/Pope's primacy: Irenaeus of Lyons (180 A.D.) [T]he very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also the faith preached to men... comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus (successor of Peter) the office of the episcopate. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement, To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us.And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth. (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3.3.2-3; trans. ANF i.415-l6). Clement of Alexandria (200 A.D.): “[Peter is] the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute." Tertullian (211): "[R]emember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]." Letter of Clement to James (221): "“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed.” Origen (248): "[I]f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]." Cyprian of Carthage (251): "[A] primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair." Cyril of Jerusalem (350): "[Peter is] the first and foremost of the apostles" and "both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven." Ephraim the Syrian, as Jesus to Peter (351): "You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples...I have chosen you to be, as it were, the firstborn in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures." Jerome (393): "[O]ne among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division.” Jerome also, in 396, calls Peter "chief of the apostles." Augustine (411): “Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven.'" Council of Ephesus (431): "[T]he head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle...[Peter is] prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church." Pope Leo I: "Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles, and from him as from the head wishes his gifts to flow to all the body so that anyone who dares to secede from Peter’s solid rock may understand that he has no part or lot in the divine mystery...among the most blessed apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power...All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others."

[@josephmiller3672]

Where does the Council of Ephesus say that about Peter?

[@adamduarte895]

Cherry picking the church fathers. Ignatius was silent on the bishop of Rome.

[@josephmiller3672]

@@adamduarte895 So? Arguments from silence are tenuous, this one especially.

[@soulosxpiotov7280]

Peter was preeminent - but this is not the same thing as a continual line of bishops who speak ex cathedra.

[@laurapiovan]

Yet, none of the church fathers recognized infallibility nor succession . So where do you derive those from?

[@martincorneille7998]

A follow-up to @Gavin 's argument that Cyprian of Carthage (Treatise on Unity) preached equality among bishops. I have actually identified the full passage where he mentions "equality in honor and power". Read in full, this excerpt is actually to mean the very opposite of what Gavin makes it sound like. It strikes me as a very clear statement of Rome's See primacy and guardianship of unity around a single creed: “The Lord speaks to Peter, saying, ‘I say unto you, that you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.’ And again to the same He says, after His resurrection, ‘Feed my sheep.’ And although to all the apostles, after His resurrection, He gives an equal power, and says, ‘As the Father has sent me, even so send I you: Receive the Holy Ghost: Whosoever sins you remit, they shall be remitted unto him; and whosoever sins you retain, they shall be retained;’ yet, that He might set forth unity, he founded one chair; he has arranged by His authority the origin of that unity, as beginning from one [Peter]. Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honor and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity, and primacy is given to Peter, that one Church of Christ and one chair may be shown.…He who opposes and resists the Church, he deserts the chair of Peter on whom the Church is founded….”

[@Swo37]

This is big. Gavin was biased at this point, it seems to me.

[@shepherdson6189]

Indeed that is quite clear. Nice observation!

[@jotunman627]

Well, this is true, but for those who are able to move the goal post, then anything can be interpreted suit them. They have five views on the Eucharist, four on salvation, five on sanctification, and baptism we can't even count the variations, etc. etc....why do even hope for them to believe in the Pope. Lutherans believe Lutherans, Presbyterians believe Presbyterians, Anglicans believe Anglicans, Catholics believe Catholics, etc...Protestants are not united, they are a big bowl of salad. There cannot be differentiation in the truthful interpretation of the Scriptures within the Bible because there is only one truth of God, not hundred variations of half-truths and falsehoods.

[@timtaft8585]

@@Swo37 no he really wasn’t. Gavin has already addressed this part of Cyprian’s quote before. No one is denying that the early church looked to the chair of Peter with a sense of primacy and unity. What Gavin specifically is denying is that Peter held any kind of special authority that the rest of the apostles did not have, especially in terms of infallibility. Nothing about Cyprian’s quote, even when taken in full context, suggests that he thinks Peter spoke infallibly in a manner that the rest of the Apostles did not. That would be reading it into the quote. He didn’t say that the apostles shared equal authority just to contradict himself a sentence later.

[@lucianbane2170]

@@timtaft8585 exactly so

[@user-nathan]

Does anyone know if the written form of the opening statements of Mr. Sonna and Dr. Ortlund were ever made available?

[@roshankurien203]

Gavin has so much catholic love.. what a wonderful man

[@kl2642]

Suan did great but I'd like to see Gavin debate Dr. Brant Pitre on things like the papacy and the Eucharist. Once you understand the deeper Jewish roots of the faith, things become clear.

[@mjramirez6008]

unfortunately Dr. Pitre doesn't do debates

[@noncalvinistbydecree1672]

I never realized how a lot of significant doctrines of Catholicism stem from typology. If the New Testament authors aren't drawing the typological conclusion for me, then I'd be hesitant to believe it. Just because there's parallels, I don't think gives us justification to create doctrines out of those parallels.

[@hectorchavez1589]

The entity of the New Testament is dependent on typological truths, Paul’s clearly draws this out.

[@noncalvinistbydecree1672]

@@hectorchavez1589 I wouldn't necessarily agree that the New Testament is "dependent" on typological truths nor does the New Testament claim that. I would need more clarification on what that really means. And the foundation laid for typology is that the Law and the Prophets were pointing to Christ. That's the only relevant typology we get from the New Testament authors. The authors use the Old Testament to reveal truths about Jesus, but not Mary or Peter.

[@vituzui9070]

@@noncalvinistbydecree1672 "The authors use the Old Testament to reveal truths about Jesus, but not Mary or Peter." That's just a protestant assumption without evidence. Truths about Mary or Peter are ultimately truths about Christ. Furthermore, the only way to understand well the OT is in the light of the NT, thanks to typology. Without typology, many parts of the OT seem like a weird collection of historic facts that don't seem to be strongly related to Christ. For example, why would God care about giving us information about Eliakim in Isaiah 22? Without typology, it seems like a random an useless information. Typology gives us the key to understand it.

[@noncalvinistbydecree1672]

@@vituzui9070 Can you show a New Testament author that states they're making a connection between Mary or Peter and something in the Old Testament? Their intent must be somewhat clear otherwise it's just up to interpretation or our imagination.

[@catholic4ever447]

@@noncalvinistbydecree1672 ...straight from Gen. 3:15”...I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers...” Ahhh...right there in the beginning, He mentions His beloved mother😉

[@bradleesargent]

How much impact do the words of Jesus make in Dr. Gavins view? If the verses in Matthew 16 were removed from scripture how would that change Dr. Gavins life?

[@giuseppesavaglio8136]

As is the case when subjects like these arise, the best modern usage answer can be summed as being, "How many angels can dance on the top of a pin?"

[@mcspankey4810]

In my opinion, if you did not presuppose the Catholic Church was false and had no theological bias while you studied the scriptures in light of its first century Jewish context in the light of the writings of the early church fathers then you’d definitely be Catholic. Suan is a beast - I think he did well in both rounds of the cross examination - great debate on both sides for sure.

[@dixylynejoshua9469]

Thank you Suan....God bless your efforts/works in defending the true church, founded by Jesus Christ 2021 yrs. ago...Jesus wants us to be one...no matter what, even His apostles were not perfect ...but He said that He will be with us until the end of time...thank you also to Cavin .,pls continue to know the truth.. May God bless you all who made this debate possible...

[@jackholman5008]

No you wouldn't

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

When the RCC was the only game in town you were allowed to follow, or you'd get excommunicated, which could be a slow death sentence in itself, seeing as how no one would trade or help you anymore. Or if you were stripped of possessions and thrown in prison, or put to death at worst, then it would easily be the default mode to be RCC. People were illiterate back then, so I can totally see how the church evolved as it did. Good people fought hard agaisnt Roman authority to provide the bible to common people, so we can now read it for ourselves. This is why a lot of Christians no longer choose to be Catholic, now that it's not dangerous to choose.

[@coloradodutch7480]

I have never met a new Christian that read the RCC claims in the Bible without having to be told the RCC claims are there The trinity doesn’t have to be inserted into the Bible, it is already there and people can find it without having to be justified to new believers, they read the basic principles right away. Like this discussion of the papacy, even the apostles’s successors for hundreds of years didn’t see it in the Bible, that should tell you right away that the problem is not people not opposing RCC but that the RCC claim has a biblical problem.

[@Adam-ue2ig]

I think Dr. Ortlund won the debate.

[@Chris-yr8wb]

If you read the comments most people agree that Suan won

[@Adam-ue2ig]

Actually i have and comment section looks mixed, even if what you say is true it certainly does not follow that therefore Soan won the debate. There does seem to be a fair amount of Catholics that follow Capturing Christianity youtube channel so that probably has something to do with. Altleast 1 of the Catholics on here that thought the Catholic won openly admited they have a bias because they are Catholic. That would be a fallacy of appeal to common belief. When the claim that most or many people in general or of a particular group accept a belief as true is presented as evidence for the claim or proof.

[@Compulsive-Elk7103]

No

[@dman7668]

People believe what they want to believe. Rarely do people flip their minds no matter how smart an argument Gavin or Soan make.

[@Adam-ue2ig]

@dman7668 they believe what they genuinely believe is the truth (presumably in most cases)...to claim otherwise seems to be venturing into uncharity...to imply they have bad motives or they are not being genuinely honest rather they are just believing what they "want to".

[@JJ-cw3nf]

It’s so easy to critique and say I don’t see it, I want more

[@sandiemckenzie3299]

Suan seemed to have substantially more talk time overall. Unfortunate, because I would have liked to have heard more from Dr. Gavin.

[@heb597]

When Protestants challenge other religion's doctrines, they require an explicit verse but when it comes to defending Sola Scriptura, Protestants do not need an explicit verse.

[@theKpen]

Man shall not live by breath alone but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. Christ is the Word. The Word is the Word. The church or tradition is not the word...

[@heb597]

@@theKpen Oral tradition existed before written scripture. The writings were based on teachings handed down. Luke explains that his writings were based on what have been handed down Luke 1:1-4 1 Since many have undertaken to set down an orderly account of the events that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed on to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, 3 I too decided, after investigating everything carefully from the very first, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the truth concerning the things about which you have been instructed. Show me a single verse that says Scripture Alone. You will see that you have been lied to.

[@Lambdamale.]

@@heb597 What do you mean by scripture alone or sola scriptura? Edit... Specifically....To prove the authority of Tradition you went to scripture? Do you start with Tradition or do you start with Scripture? If you were proving the Papacy, would you start with a foundation of Scripture or Tradition? If there were no scriptural support for your belief in the Papacy, would you still believe it? If so, what would be your basis? How would you draw the conclusion that the Papacy has authority, that it is infallible?

[@heb597]

@@Lambdamale. Scripture Alone = Scripture is the final authority in all areas of faith and life. To prove the authority of Tradition/Oral Teaching, I went to Scripture because Protestants do not believe that Tradition has equal authority with Scripture. If there were no scriptural support for a tradition, I would not believe it because everything in Scripture was derived from Tradition. Scripture owes its existence to Tradition. Example when Paul was teaching that we are "saved by grace through faith not by works", this oral traditon had existed in the church before he had written it. In order for me to believe a doctrine, it has to be supported by both Tradition, Scripture, and approved by the Chruch Authority. All three must be in agreement because all three are equally authoritative. If any doctrice, is not in line with all three, then it is not orthodox.

[@Lambdamale.]

@@heb597 Fair enough. You perceive Rome to be the authority that waa founded by Christ, and therefore subject your judgements on faith and Morals to them. But what is your foundation for doing this? Because when you define sola scriptura as scripture being thr final authority for the protestant in all areas of life (depending on which group) , it seems to me that Catholics also start with Scripture as their foundation when it comes to establishing Cburch authority.. In other words, for you to get to the point where a teaching is supported by scripture, tradition and approved by the church in order to believe it, it looks to me like the foundation for this comes from the oldest tradition that all Christian groups accept, the scriptures. It looks to me that this is where we all start, and also where we part. Even in this debate we are commenting about.

[@rolandovelasquez135]

At 1:44. If I heard Suan correctly he admitted that there is debate in the Church Fathers insofar as the primacy of Peter. 👍🏼

[@valentinoserrano393]

I want to become Orthodox

[@markquioas6097]

After all the lengthy analogical arguments.If you see Ephesians 4:11 there is not a mention of an office of a priest let alone Papacy in the church.

[@internetenjoyer1044]

Barely Protestant tearing up the q and a with his questions. You guys should check outhis channel uf you like roman catholic vs anglican debates and stuff, among other things

[@BoyKagome]

I have a hard time getting beyond Sola Scriptura because of Jeremiah 17:9. I know for a fact God preserved his word, and it is unchanging ( Psalms 12). I can't say the same about Catholicism. I also believe that each denomination ( as long as they teach Christ as the savior) are just different branches to bring different-minded people to God, according to Romans 10:9.

[@m.miller7674]

I agree with you brother

[@lukewilliams448]

What about when Paul says to follow the traditions?

[@sal_vulcano_maybe6873]

The problem is that you're presuming that "God's Word" is the Bible and only the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible does the Bible make such an assertion about itself. Furthermore, the Bible never enumerates its contents, which means that your infallible collection of books is based on a completely fallible list of books, which is a major problem, because 1) the canon is a tradition outside of Scripture that all orthodox believers are held to, which is profoundly anti sola scriptura, and 2) to resolve this problem, you would need an authoritative body (the Church) to decide what goes in there--or you're really just hoping that you somehow got it right, when the entirety of Church history points to a canon with at least seven more books.

[@destinycharles2237]

This is so interesting that I had to like your comment. But the Catholic church doesn’t “change”. Instead, doctrine is understood better over time and eventually well thought out dogmas come out from teachings that have been held for years and years, even since the apostles. I’m not going to mention the scriptures yet since I’m going to go read them now, but I just wanted to mention how one’s perspective on a thing can reveal more truth from God. Thanks again for this post!

[@destinycharles2237]

I’ve read the prescribed scriptures and… I see these aren’t actually about Sola Scriptura but rather they display *why* you are wary about the Catholic Church’s way of forming dogma. Such fear is not something one can “argue” a person out of. I know, I was there😅. But I do hope that you can come to consider why Christ wanted “one body” of believers, and why the apostles constantly wrote about unity. Think about what unity meant to them, not what it means to you. You may come to a different conclusion than me, but one understanding of God makes the most sense to me. God bless you as you watch more studies/debates such as this one.😊

[@gburns9222]

18 minutes in and I've only learned I need to study typology ;)

[@johnbreitmeier3268]

Then you have learned nothing because typology is a cheat and is NOT valid.

[@gburns9222]

​@@johnbreitmeier3268I believe that's what I was saying....

[@johnbreitmeier3268]

@@gburns9222 Well your comment was about as clear as Catholic typology, lol

[@gburns9222]

@@johnbreitmeier3268 Well theres a wink for context. The irony...maybe read the comment and think before you post a comment next time.

[@johnbreitmeier3268]

@@gburns9222 Maybe write clearly next time.

[@duckeggcarbonara]

I'm Orthodox, so I enjoyed the comments from both guys here.

[@eternalbyzantium262]

Only Orthodoxy is true.

[@duckeggcarbonara]

@@eternalbyzantium262 Correct.

[@pilatpahanpilat2112]

@@duckeggcarbonara hellow . do you pray to mary ?

[@eternalbyzantium262]

Yes we do. We ask for her intercession. Our Blessed Lord also taught intercessory prayers, and said that we ought to pray for each other. When you ask your parents or friends to pray for you, are you committing idolatry and thus be condemned to hell? So you’re allowed to distinguish prayer from worship in one sense but the Orthodox aren’t allowed to distinguish prayer from worship when we seek the intercession of the Blessed Mother, despite the fact that we are both consistently applying the principle of seeking the prayer of others especially since the saints in Heaven are more alive than us and are are basking in the glory of God. You inconsistent demon, son of satan.

[@pilatpahanpilat2112]

@@eternalbyzantium262 did jesus say to pray to mary ?

[@dcndrew_faithofourfathers]

Crucial 7 mins in Gavin’s opening statement now available. These were lost in the original live video that was uploaded. They significantly strengthen his overall arguments. Anyone who watched the live stream (as I did) or who watched the earlier uploaded version should go back and watch Gavin’s opening statement again. Can’t weigh the two sides of the debate fairly without doing so.

[@lazaruscomeforth7646]

The question at 34:25 has an answer: It would take all of Christianity perhaps a thousand years to finally start coming up with it.

[@gloriamacias2180]

Love Suan!!

[@lukesellers2673]

Man I love this debate, and I can’t believe it took me this long to find it. One of the main sticking points for me was in the cross-examination of Dr. Ortlund, Suan responded to a concern about the lack of patristic support for the typology that he appealed to, by stating something that sounds dangerously close to the classic Roman Catholic argument AGAINST Protestants. That is to say, that because Protestants or Protestantism did not exist from the beginning or have historical support, that it cannot truly be considered a part of the Church that Christ established. By Suan’s own admission, his typological argument did not exist before the 17th century but was a later “invention” or discovery as it were. Now, it is my opinion that the Roman Catholic Church must not surrender this typological assertion because it is the bedrock of their claims to the papacy and its relevant powers. While they may lay claim to other passages, the conversation seems to always find its way back here to this verse in particular, as this is sort of the “hinge” of the argument. I suppose that a Roman Catholic answer to my point about historical support could be framed in a way as to make it sound as if this typological connection was part of the continual revelation of Scripture or to use their own buzzword, a “clarification” of a previously unclear truth. I still continue to take issue with this type of argumentation if paralleled with any assertion about the Protestant church not having stake in the historicity of the Church of Christ. In my opinion, it seems as you can have one but not the other. To use this typological assertion, one must admit that Protestant doctrines, though formulated hundreds of years after the creation of the church of antiquity, are still valid and can lay claim to historical roots. They were not as some claimed, “new inventions” of the sixteenth century. If one were to make appeals to the historicity of the RCC and its dogmas as opposed to that of the Protestant churches, it would be dubious at best to rely on much later (historically) clarifications or arguments that have 0 basis in the historical records of the church. Just my two cents, though I may be wrong on these points and someone may point that out to me. I just thought it was an interesting concession to have to make, given the nature of most RCC and Protestant debates and their assumed positions.

[@koppite9600]

Even Paul used typology saying Israelites going through the red sea were baptised into Moses, typology is valid.

[@lukesellers2673]

@@koppite9600 I don’t remember ever saying typology wasn’t valid? I only stated its interesting to me that a Roman Catholic apologist is relying on a typological connection found over a thousand years after the writing of the text.

[@koppite9600]

@@lukesellers2673 it's very normal and obvious if you know about typology in the bible.

[@PhilosophiaeAmator]

@@lukesellers2673 So what’s your point, then? They sound similar, to you at least. Of course false analogies also exist. In this case you’ve used one.

[@cooperthatguy1271]

I did find that Suan took the stance and method of sickening truth that Protestants are accused of. I.e. quoting scripture and commentaries on scripture and not patristic beleifs. I found it sort of funny but also made me appreciate ortlund even more for his concern of cooperation between scripture patristics and contemporary scholarship.

[@ChristiansColloquy]

Great debate for the most part. The Q&A was pretty rough, I think the debaters should have been given equal, timed responses. Even for questions directed to Dr. Ortlund, it felt like Suan was given a pass to dominate the discussion and always have the last word of substance.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I haven't gotten to that part yet, but this seems to be a protestant channel. In older debates, where the organizers and most of the audience is protestant, the questions mostly go to the Catholic debater as well (because the audience wants to challenge them more). The protestant debater is not questioned directly near as much, and only gets half the time to do a short follow up. I guess this offsets the home court advantage a bit.