Cattleya Seed Experiment

[@Naturamorpho]

I have tried a similar procedure for epiphyte cattleyas, using tree bark inside plastic containers. I have had some germination on Ficus branch pieces, but the protocorms never passed the first leaf formation stages. I believe the Ficus may have some sugar in it that allows germination, but not enough to sustain the seedling as it grows without the proper mycorrhizal fungus. I have entertained the idea of adding sugar by misting but never tried, afraid it would boost up any old mold and fungus, not only the good ones. I heard that you can use root tips from other orchids to try and make an inoculum of mycorrhizal fungi. Now, you should really try that with Catasetum, that you seem to like! They are by far the easiest ones to germinate ex vitro. Keep us updated on this!

[@SVKLOrchids]

@@Naturamorpho Will do!! Interesting that your experience didn’t get the babies past the initial leaf formation stage! I wonder if the sugar gets them through that stage?

[@williampetrovich1998]

🏆movies from the 80s typically set in Miami

[@SVKLOrchids]

@@williampetrovich1998 🤣😂

[@siggyincr7447]

Interesting topic. I think people like to call the orchid/fungi relationship symbiotic because they don't think of orchids as parasites. But as far as I can tell the orchid seedlings are straight up parasites on the fungus. Now maybe this changes later in the orchid's life, as it starts to grow maybe it offers some benefit to the fungus. But I've never seen anyone show that the orchid actually offers anything to the fungus. Catasetinae are really good examples of how the orchid seedling exploits the fungus as I've seen Catasetum and Mormodes seedlings that were developing behind some bark and grew quite large (over an inch long) without any light. The only way that could happen is if the orchid got all of its energy from the fungus. You might want to add some form of complex carbohydrate, like pulverized leaves or bark to the sand as I don't think mycorrhizal fungi are adapted to sucrose as their carbohydrate source in nature. Though maybe this is a non-issue. The seed look really good. These are actually pretty big as orchid seed go with some being like fine dust. Looking forward to updates on this. Good Luck!

[@SVKLOrchids]

@@siggyincr7447 Yes, I’ve wondered about the use of only sugar in the water. I assumed it was broken down by another microorganism before being useful to the fungus, though I honestly don’t know! That’s the reason I added some Jims purely organic. We’ll see how it does, I guess!

[@Naturamorpho]

I'm thinking if the sugar is possibly meant for the protocorms rather than for the fungi...

[@SVKLOrchids]

@ I’m not sure! I might have to ask my friend The Plant Propagator!

[@siggyincr7447]

@@Naturamorpho That could be, the seedlings grown in-vitro are certainly capable of absorbing sugar directly. But I think for ex-vitro germination your main concern is to establish the fungi that the orchid seedlings will then parasitize. Those fungi need to be strong enough to feed the seedling. I'm not sure they would develop well given just sugar as a carb source. But fungi are famously well equipped for breaking down things like cellulose and lignin into simpler carbs they can use as an energy source.

[@Naturamorpho]

The argument over symbiosis or mycophagy is an old and still raging one! I've heard both points of view, but few objective arguments for or against either. I don't know if these fungi can live their full life cycle without the plant, but if they do and get nothing in return, then I have to agree with the mycophagy hypothesis... But I suspect it is not so clear cut after all.

[@pixie2488]

I was always thinking why no one trying to propagate with out agar or laboratory. It is really interesting topic even if it don’t work. Just nice to share. Looking forward to see if anything grows. Thanks for sharing 🙏

[@siggyincr7447]

Some of us are, but I think it's a lot more difficult if you don't live where they are native as you might not have access to the right fungi.

[@michaelmccarthy4077]

it can be done, the problem is that the yield is typically very low. I have germinated Dendrobium antennatum on ordinary mulch taken from my yard in Florida. Out of the large number of seeds sown, about 20 made it to protocorm stage and only about 10 of those got to the point of true leaf and root, only 1 of those grew to a size that could be potted up.

[@siggyincr7447]

@@michaelmccarthy4077 That's encouraging. I've tried to get Dendrobium crumeatum to germinate and so far nothing. I assumed the fungi that Dendrobium need might not be found in the Americas.

[@SVKLOrchids]

@@michaelmccarthy4077 Shoot, getting 10 would be perfect for my little setup!

[@SVKLOrchids]

@@pixie2488 I’m curious as well! I’ve got a friend doing something similar in Houston and it’s working well! He’s using epiphytes though.

[@Spencer_Plant_Projects]

I think there is a lot to learn about epiphytic orchid biology. It's hard to replicate the wild in a lab and may lead to incomplete or incorrect conclusions. Nitrogen fixing biology like asospirilium and microbes like bacillus and psudomonads would help with propagation. I would be weary about leaving the sugar solution around for more than a few days with the organic fertilizer because its probably going to ferment into booze or vinegar. Andy from Andy's orchid talks about using moss from imported orchids that are grown in more natural settings as reserviors of symbiotic organisms.

[@SVKLOrchids]

@@Spencer_Plant_Projects Hmmmm… I hadn’t considered that I could be making hooch!! I’ll definitely give it sniff every few days. I assume blocking light wouldn’t help slow down the fermentation process?

[@Spencer_Plant_Projects]

@SVKLOrchids keep in the fridge. But we all know not to water our chids with cold spray... You can't make that solution stable and you will be propagating a random assortment of stuff. Could be good could be bad. I think a solution of amino acids and sugars will do well for you. Cheap to buy digested soy aminos from bioag or growers secret. They should be directly available to the plant + the sugar. Freeze dried coconut water powder (no additives) is also a think they use in SE Asia for baby chids

[@michaelmccarthy4077]

you probably would have been better off taking some sand from the wild and using that to inoculate the rest of the sand. The sugar can be a magnet for a number of unwanted microorganisms and fungi, as almost any bacteria and fungus will happily use glucose as an energy source.

[@SVKLOrchids]

@@michaelmccarthy4077 Yes, it’s a definitely a race against time with the micros! Seeing the results in Brazil give me hope it will work though.

[@lookthrumyeyes]

Very interesting, Stephen. I contemplated of doing this but never went ahead with it. Maybe now I will :) Can't wait for some positive results! How will the ones on the sand get any mycorrhizal fungi?

[@SVKLOrchids]

@@lookthrumyeyes ideally the fungus is in the sand too!

[@lookthrumyeyes]

@SVKLOrchids perfect 👍🏻 can't wait to see how it goes

[@SVKLOrchids]

@@lookthrumyeyes Me too!

[@ericjenkins5815]

I've recently germinated 8+ species of terrestrial orchids using the cardboard method (some are already growing leaves). If you have some extra seeds I'd be happy to try adapting it for lithophytes or epiphytes, or I could send you some information if you wanted to try that method yourself.

[@SVKLOrchids]

@@ericjenkins5815 I’d love to learn more about the cardboard method! How did you get those tricky terrestrials to grow??

[@ericjenkins5815]

@@SVKLOrchids I tried to post a reply but it seems to disappear every time I post it.

[@SVKLOrchids]

@@ericjenkins5815 Argh, KZbin is not user friendly! I did join that cardboard group on FB though!

[@channeliman521]

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[@SVKLOrchids]

@@channeliman521 🙌😃

[@channeliman521]

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[@SVKLOrchids]

@@channeliman521 🙌😃

[@channeliman521]

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[@SVKLOrchids]

@@channeliman521 🙌😃