"Art" or "Kitsch" as a Name for Classical Culture? | Jan-Ove Tuv & Martin Romberg

[@vanzweedenart]

Thanks Jan-Ove and Bork for your excellent and very inspirational interviews. Thanks.

[@reaganwiles_art]

I was painting a dozen years before I let go of practice, influence and ideals and made a painting from nowhere but the painting; it was as if the orientation of everything came together to do it.

[@andrecruz9188]

“A master calls a thousand, knowing, that only 100 will listen.”

[@lyndadiamond564]

Hi Jan-Ove-Tuv... We met many years ago during 9/11. I was staying at Odd's farm until the planes could fly again to the states. There is a lot to say here. I think Odd is knocking himself out trying to change the meaning of the word Kitch as we have known it in the past. For me, the point of creating a painting is to articulate in an image what is not sayable in words. I do not understand why Odd is so caught up in words. Words are limiting. Odd's paintings are so articulate! But the word "Kitch" and the way Odd wants to change its meaning to suit his own needs ( and he thinks the needs of his students) is just not working! Odd knows when a painting isn't working but he doesn't get it when his philosophy isn't working. It's not working because his philosophy isn't relatable to the masses. It's elitist. Remember the Great Leonardo Da Vinci? His work was so loved because in it there was something for everyone. And I mean everyone. I love Odd's paintings but I don't think his work is relatable to the average person of today. My advice is to stay away from putting so much importance on words and stick to the images. And learn to value and relate to the little guy! I am sure Odd would make a face at this advice and would probably rant and rave about Kant. I say, stick to painting! Lynda

[@CaveofApelles]

Hello Lynda Diamond! Well, what about the concept of "Fine art" introduced in the 18th century (decades later shortened to "Art") which marked the separation between craft and spirit? It is not a coincidence that all the disciplines that Charles Batteux grouped together as the "fine arts" in 1746 now have been totally destroyed by mystical ideals. If words are not important, then why are the cultural marxists obsessed with changing our language? Because words are not just words. They carry meaning and thus, a change of language also changes our perception of things. - Bork Nerdrum

[@lyndadiamond564]

@@CaveofApelles Hello Bork! I wanted to think about this before I replied to your comments. First I want to say I agree with Martin Romberg's comment. He said " whatever words you use you are always gonna have a problem with it" I still think you value words too much. It is true that a change of language changes the perception of things. Language is always changing and so is our perception of things. That is why I think " Image" is a more powerful vehicle for change. You say "It is not a coincidence that all the disciplines that Charles Batteux grouped together as the "fine arts" in 1746 now have been totally destroyed by mystical ideals". You sound surprised by this comment. Thoughts and ideas are always in a constant state of flux. Is this a new idea for you? This is why it is important to not put too much stock in words. You can not count on them. They are "always" changing! Leonardo Da Vinci's "Mona Lisa" clearly articulated the change and perception of things at the time it was painted. This painting was so articulate it was way beyond words. Andy Warhol's "Tomato Campbells Soup Can" painting also articulated the change of meaning and perception in its time. Yeah I know, Odd HATES!!! Andy Warhol. But he did accomplish bringing his point of view to the masses in a painting. If Odd wants to change the way we see things he's gonna have to package his "message" differently. He's gonna have to be able to sell it to the masses. If he can not do this, no matter how true or brilliant his message it won't sell. Or it won't sell on the scale he'd like to see it sell on. My painting assignment to Odd is to make a painting that clearly depicts his message in a way in which everyone can understand it. Yes, I know it's difficult for a complicated mind to create something with great simplicity. But he must. PS There is a lotta truth to what I am saying Best, Lynda Diamond

[@vanzweedenart]

Absolutely right!.Do not spend so much effort trying to change the meaning of the word kitsch. Yes, kitsch is the plastic nonsense in your garden that has no value at all, kitsch is the crying youngh boy etc. The work Nedrum makes, doesn't sound like that. Yes, now we should call this kind of art classical art, A lot more people will understand were you are. You do not need to redefine a negative term. As a painter, I would not spent my time on this. What Nerdrum and his followers are making is just great and doesn't need the approval or recognition of any modernist.

[@lyndadiamond564]

@@vanzweedenart Yes Bart, Agreed! In 10,000 years if Odds paintings survive ( and we survive ) I think people will be way more interested in what the paintings are saying rather than the words. For me, images are far more articulate than words. I think it is a waste of time arguing about the meaning of a word. Who cares? I don't. First I want to say that Odd is my greatest teacher. I learned more in 10 days in his studio than in 3 yrs in art school. But I have learned from his example. He a leader, be a leader. "Respect" your own vision and not so much the visions of others. Odd wants to say he is seeing the world correctly when in reality he is seeing the world through his own eyes ( as he can only do). To my students, I say find your own way vision and path. Take what you can from the knowledge of others but do not walk in their footsteps. Make your own footsteps. I do not paint for Odd or anyone else. I paint for myself! And teach my students to do the same. Odd wants to argue that his way and vision are the right way. To me this is dictatorial. I have learned from Odd's example, but not from his dictatorial views. Best, Lynda

[@vanzweedenart]

@@lyndadiamond564 Yehh I do agree. I hope that this movement ends up in a statement for classic painting in stead of a warship about the term kitsch. Great that you give lessons and tell your students to find their own way of expression; that's painting in the first place. I found Odd Nerdrum by accident in a book of Classical painting. Never heard from him before that. Now I have seen the majority of interviews of the cave of Apelles. Some are very good, some a bit less. Great that you have visited Odd a stayed there for 10 days. How crazy to hear that you learned more in 10 day's than 3 years of academy. Here in the Netherlands the same sounds alle over. I studied Art in different places, workshops, a couple of years in Amsterdam and Den Haag. I was also surprised to notice that a lot of modernist seems not to worry their lack of skills; their ideas were good sometimes; the outcome horrible and really off. It didn't disturbed anybody. Now I am determined to stay with the classical stuff. I'm painting all my life (I am 63) but models and portraits just since 2018. Making slow progression but that's ok. I old enough to respect my own way, vision and not afraid to try other ways of painting. I made a lot of abstracts as well; why not? I think it can help to know the process of reduction and elemination. The opinion in the ' cave-boys' about the modernists is in my view a bit to short. Their are numerous European and American modernist that know very very well what they are doing. Take Anselm Kiefer (by far the best German painter/artist/modernist still living in the EU today), Look at David Hockney. How can they say that modernist are a kind of ' away' from reality? That man is fabulous. I never would paint like him, but he is a true master. And so on. So I like the interviews of Jan-Ove Tuv and his guest but sometimes It's a bit a closed community. That will not bring them where they actually wanted to be, I think. Thanks for your reply Lynda. Thanks. Great to hear. Excuses for my bad English.

[@tejasnair3399]

I think everyday people use the word art in both senses. At least in America, when everyday people think ‘Art’, they might think, Modern Art, i.e ‘that stuff I don’t like’ or think Duchamp; on the other hand they have the phrase ‘there’s an art to it’ which may be applied to menial skills. It breaks my heart to see the ‘stuff I don’t like’ sense encroach onto the Old Masters.

[@thecowfy]

Well you may set forth the obvious, but the facts on the ground are the market has seen to it that what is 'called' art is what the interests deem useful.

[@albertduplessis2482]

Once heard that the formula for creativity is A + B = Z or is the answer AB? Maybe it depends on how good the mathematician can turn a garden gnome into a masterpiece. Thank you for this interesting conversation, enjoyed!

[@ravenshadowz2343]

I see the influence of Zdzisław Beksiński, in this kitsch style of paintings, Odd Nerdrum's, and most of his students paintings are in more of the realm of a dream state, it takes great skill to create such a painting. I think someone who is a classical oil painter should be called a classical oil painter, not use a basically modern word such as kitsch.

[@thecowfy]

Ok the second guy(I still don't know who is Tuv, & who is Martin)(you guys don't introduce yourselves). Anyway brings the difference 'tween 'art', & 'craft'. You can be a master in either yet they are not the same. Giugiaro, & Farina, & Lowy, may be masters. But art is again some thing else. Class is the medium in a huge part.

[@thestaz8564]

Tuv is the host of the show, mostly sits in the middle or to the right. the bald guy

[@FilipSandecomposer]

Why insist on defining one self as a kitsch artist?! No matter how you put it, the way I am used to know the term kitsch is for something simply bad taste, if there is a painting, a film scene, a novel, music or even a buliding, china or a garden. And it is a well needed term to estinguish profound and challenging art , which then not is defined as kitsch, from a vulgar one. If you are making kitsch I find you are only confirming feelings and sentimentality that are not very profound to people, or put it that way, you are not trying with your art to challenge people to think more deep in to their feeling and understanding of the existence. It is an art that reflect puberty and superfical attitude in contrast to the mature state of mind which good art reflects.For me, art should not confirm, but challenge! It should always be provoking and it shall encourage an effort to think and feel deeper of everything.

[@CaveofApelles]

In the 1920s, Kitsch was used as a word to belittle recent things made in a classical manner. As an example later on, Hermann Broch wrote that Victorian Architecture made today (1930s) would be Kitsch. So the modern definition of the term is an altered definition. And the term "Art", in its modern sense and usage is barely 250 years old, going back to a time when the philosophy of modernism was taking shape. So the Renaissance masters did not use the word Art in the way that people do today.

[@FilipSandecomposer]

@@CaveofApelles The definition of terms and also even words, are always something to discuss and to take in to consideration. Nevertheless, no matter how much one have good reasons, and historical well defined ones, to define one self as Kitsch artist, the "everyday use" of the term Kitsch, for me, being also an artist (composer), and for the vast majority of people, will be taken as something second range, whereas Art will not, it has a a higher value for almost everyone. If one define one self as a kitsch artist one must be aware that one rate one self along with sentimental paintings and items, not always even good executed, which one will find by grannies and in second hand shops. When I see a painting by Nerdrum and his pupils I can not think of it as Kitsch, but as "classical art" which I find is a more suited term.. But it is not me to define your style ;)

[@yeraycatalangaspar195]

Very interesting, i also feel than "western" culture as it is now doesn't exist, to have a culture you have to build ON something, for the years than I been alive (about 30) I only seen deconstructions and irony seeping into everything, a patina of nihilism than makes everything to do with "western" art to be not only distateful but hard to even consume.

[@thecowfy]

You start by defining your context by separating the plastic arts from emotion by saying it's part, and parcel of 'music' there bye removing painting, drawing ,or what from the importance of the emotional. Will let's see where you go with this . I'm pissed, but continue. Oh, & don't hand me the amount in music , against the amount in plastic art. That's BS.