Cessna Citation N3RB- Pilot Incapacitation?

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[@blancolirio]

UPDATE: 1/14 2021 Pilot (owner operator) identified as Richard Wayne Boehlke a private pilot NOT rated in Citation Jet he was flying. FAA Pilot Database: Ratings Private Pilot Private Pilot - Airplane Single Engine Land Private Pilot - Airplane Single Engine Sea Private Pilot - Airplane Multiengine Land Private Pilot - Airplane Multiengine Sea Private Pilot - Instrument Airplane Private Pilot - Rotorcraft-Helicopter Type Ratings: P/G-111 P/LR-JET Medical Class: 2 Medical Date: 09/2020 Expiration Date: 09/2021 Waiting for more information on the 2nd person on-board. Possibly a CFI. Jb.

[@lellius]

If he received his type rating within the past 3-4 months it might not yet be updated in the FAA database.

[@lellius]

@@ProbableCause-DanGryder This is shaping up to be a strange one indeed. The medical incapacitation theory certainly makes a lot more sense if he was flying solo. Here we have an older guy, a successful CEO, presumably with loads of experience who already holds ratings in two very challenging types, and is the owner of the accident aircraft. Something doesn't quite add up.

[@joshc7091]

@@lellius You said it ceo.... Lots more high up suicidal people to come... He was drunk I am sure of it. He knew he was about to die. You can hear it in his voice

[@joeys8701]

He had been having issues on the ground at TTD. GC asked him if he was having radio issues prior to his departure, so to me that indicates this wasnt hypoxia and to me seems like it would be a long lasting stroke, etc.

[@joeys8701]

@@ProbableCause-DanGryder Do not know total time, but TTD was combined LC/GC at the time. Pilot had checked in with the wrong ATIS prior to requesting the extra time. He was also told to expect FL370 by TTD.

[@VASAviation]

Thank you so much for your support and shoutout, Juan. I'm so proud our content helps the industry in the best way possible. Thanks for your analysis too.

[@133dave133]

You rock man. I'm very impressed with your channel.

[@MrWheeler715]

The two best aviation channels on KZbin!

[@golfbravowhiskey8669]

Victor gets the audio and JB puts it in words we can understand like this accident. His many years of aviation experience decipher and make It east for us to understand. Thanks to both of y’all.

[@zacharynorman397]

Victor’s work is incredible. We all really appreciate your very impressive hard work.

[@engineerinnewyork]

@@MrWheeler715 Let’s not forget Mentour Pilot. All three are awesome.

[@Kdrive23]

VASAviation does a wonderful job! Love both of your channels!

[@wnhtynhatc1306]

This sounds like pilot voices I hear every day on the radio. I would not have suspected anything out of the ordinary had I heard his voice.

[@mourdecais4202]

I have a feeling this wasn’t hypoxia, the guy seems off from the start, and most people would not experience harsh symptoms of hypoxia that quickly at 13-14 thousand feet (for reference, the FAA doesn’t even post a useful time of consciousness at the altitude, and at 18000ft they state 20-30 minutes). This seems like it was intoxication or stroke or something

[@ironpony42]

I had a similar feeling. It could have been one factor leading to the next.

[@Dr_Kenneth_Noisewater]

I was going to mention the low altitude of onset as well. I was thinking something medical initially. The tight spiral could have been the passenger trying to pull up and tightening it but i pray that wasn’t it. How realistic is a carbon monoxide scenario in a jet? I’ve never really heard that mentioned other than for piston aircraft so seems unlikely. Anyway, yeah, he was sounding slurred even below the altitude (14.5k ft) where the FAA requires O2 for unpressurized aircraft. Condolences to anyone affected. 😞

[@KathrynsWorldWildfireTracking]

@@billb.7346 Exactly - the only thing explaining the passenger failing to yank the yoke up to climb - is they were incapacitated too. Only thing I can think of that matches what we see - Carbon Monoxide poisoning. I think the best clues to the crash will be found in maintenance records - as the bodies are likely...gone.

[@stay_at_home_astronaut]

@@Dr_Kenneth_Noisewater the passenger was very likely to have been seated back in the cabin.

[@jamesjacocks6221]

That thought hit me in the face. Sounds more like a condition that allows a few words to come through crisply, what would that be? Intox? Meds?

[@jamesbromstead4949]

The FAA's aviation physiology course is offered to civil aviation pilots at its Aeronautical Center site in Oklahoma City.

[@skyboy1956]

And not just the chamber ride but the whole course was outstanding! CAMI Summer '84.

[@michaeldufresne9280]

Thanks Juan For That Report. That was relatively Close To Where I Live ....With in 60 miles.

[@EvanOutdoors]

I am learning more every video Juan as a non pilot. It is a sad story again, but your incite is much appreciated. Will be interesting to know the fate of this aircraft and preventative measures for the future. Cheers from down under!

[@bjs2022]

Thanks for the updated/amended post. Now it’s much better. One request: When you’re playing the audio and commenting/explaining (and, they are excellent explanations, thanks) please pause the file so you’re not talking over the recorded speech. Dan Gryder’s theory (Probable Cause) is startlingly different and my comment about his video: When the forensic psychological investigation is complete we may know what really happened. For example, is his life highly insured? And, what is his relationship to the other person on board? Were there mass covid-19 deaths at one or more of his businesses? Was he under investigation for that and more financial troubles?

[@doctorartphd6463]

WOW...really appreciate this update. Thank you for your expertise and explanations.

[@shaunbrown85]

I noticed from VASAviations video that he sounded slurred, but he was at 14,000ft. There’s no way you’re gonna suffer from hypoxia after just taking off and teaching that altitude. His speech did get better. It could be a stroke, though.

[@ReflectedMiles]

The controller's main concern in getting him to respond towards the end is not just his unpredictability and busting his altitude assignment but United climbing up his tailpipe. That was the reason for holding onto and verifying 3RB's 230 altitude restriction and 2240 ends up having to be vectored out of the way.

[@tomk8663]

That's what I was thinking. United 2240 is climbing right behind N3RB out of FL240 with a 100KT overtake, requesting FL390, when N3RB starts his right turn. You can see that the controller working United, the higher sector person at this point, gives United an immediate left turn to the NE, in order to avoid N3RB. It was about a 60° left turn, pretty drastic climbing out of FL240. The controllers had no way of knowing what N3RB might do. It would be interesting to hear the coordination amongst the controllers when the situation was developing.

[@brentjohnson6654]

Thanks for another excellent report, Juan. As a contractor I was required to go through the altitude chamber. I went to Brooks until they’d closed it down. As a private pilot learning my hypoxic symptoms was invaluable. One day we were on a test flight with us contractors and Air Force personnel. The guy next to me asked if I felt funny, and I said yes. A little tingly which is one of my symptoms we called the front end to check the pax (pressurization) and we had been at a cabin altitude of 18,000 ft so we all donned on our masks and carried on. Without the training that would have been unsettling. OH you are right about the color wheel. I couldn’t believe one puff of oxygen and the black and white wheel turned to brilliant colors. I think all general aviation pilots should go on a chamber ride. I talked to an FAA rep at Oshkosh about this experience and he said they could go to Oklahoma City and the FAA would give them a chamber ride free. Don’t know if that is still going on. But any of you GA pilots out there should definitely look into it. It is probably the best thing you could do to keep you safe. thanks again for another great video!

[@davereaville4927]

Tough deal all around. In multi crew aircraft we are also trained to announce if we are not feeling well... ie: "I am feeling light headed/drowsy" The intent is to trigger a coordinated crew response into finding out if incapacitation is imminent. With single pilot operations, this additional safeguard is unavailable. BTW I listened to the last TX numerous times and it does suggest some slurring... although I doubt I would have picked up on it initially.

[@AMStationEngineer]

My sympathy and condolences to those affected by this tragic loss. It's getting so that I can't stand tuning in to the news anymore, it's all bad....

[@spuriouspodge7416]

Hi Juan. You do a really good job in these videos. Come from an engineering background and now work in healthcare. Not a pilot but I muck about with flight sims. Also quite interested in Human Factors and how they effect incidents. I'm probably guessing there is a LOW cabin O2 alarm or warning at 10,000ft or so? This would be the sort of thing where we should be engineering out the problem to prevent this from happening, warning someone if the cabin isn't pressurised, and you're climbing that something bad is going to happen. It does sound like Hypoxia to me. Victor/VasAvaiation has a great vid on a Cessna Caravan in Western Australia where he landed safely but there was a clear transition from confused slurred speech to better speech and less confusions the lower he got.

[@dynasty0019]

The ATC recording was interesting to say the least, lots of slurring and slowing of speech. Can't wait for the CVR transcript (if this particular Citation carried one). I can totally see Air Safety Institute doing a video on this crash in the future.

[@SomeTechGuy666]

It's funny that the ATC did notice this, ask about it and ask the pilot to take precautionary steps... turn around and descend to 5,00 feet ?

[@sw7366]

Stroke? Compounded by hypoxia and flying. Sad day.

[@tripodcatz5532]

A 777 apparently did a gear up landing on your deck railing and you're more worried about what happened to a Citation someplace else????

[@MajorHavoc214]

I've been subscribed to VAS Aviation for several years now.

[@qcan8468]

With the finger Pulse Ox units so inexpensive and readily available, their use could be another tool in flight safety. And not just for pressurized cabins ....

[@marktye322]

A pulse ox meter saved my life one morning at 3:50 am. I was very lucky to be awakened by the hand Of God and grabbed my meter to find I had a pulse rate of 30. A $35 investment might be a consideration for every flight bag.

[@deeanna8448]

I have a friend whose whole family suffered carbon monoxide poisoning. Two of the kids vomited and they thought it was due to food poisoning. Then, one of the parents got tunnel vision and immediately recalled reading that as a sign of hypoxia and was able to evacuate the family. Thank goodness!

[@gungadinn]

TAKEOFF RUNWAY 7: Climb via heading 055° to 1000', then turn left to 310° or as assigned. TAKEOFF RUNWAY 25: Climb runway heading to 900', then turn right to 320° or assigned. Notes; Rwy 7 requires a minimum climb gradient of 420' per NM to 4000'. Rwy 25 requires a minimum climb of 310' per NM to 2000' Plate effective until 28 Jan, 2021

[@billtodd6509]

You are so informative when you cover one of these events. Us civil aviation has so many guys and girls like you. You are envy of rest of the world. I got my private pilot cert in 1973, but unfortunately didn't get my instr cert. I was inbound at Canton,oh airport when Thurmond Munsen crashed his new citation. What a nerve rattler. Be safe,. Bill

[@nfcboys1984]

Juan I really enjoy your channel. Incredibly detailed while maintaining concise, actionable information. Your saving lives looking forward. No doubt. With that said, I’m truly baffled why KZbin demonetizes your videos? Is there anyway you could provide clarity on this question? Again, thank you for what you do.

[@Wayne_Robinson]

What a strange and unfortunate flight for the pilot who sure sounded like he was struggling for some yet-unknown reason. It's awkward that the first name drop of TTD that I hear, where I once rented a 172 to fly the prescribed sightseeing loop around Mt. St. Helens on a vacation trip long ago, is this peculiar loss.

[@bsa45acp]

As to the slow or slurred voice of the pilot, was that apparent while communicating with ground/tower before departure? I hope this will be looked into as part of the investigation.

[@joeys8701]

There were issues prior to contact with Seattle Center. On the ground they didnt read back taxi instruction and requested extra time prior to dept. After initial contact with Portland Dept (around 3000ft), 3RB didnt respond to calls until climbing through 5800. Then repeated this failure to respond again and failed to follow several different ATC directions while with P80. Prior to shipping 3RB to ZSE, the P80 controller coordinated with ZSE sector 6, advising they use caution with 3RB, due to potential navigation or comm issues. It was not isolated to only above 10k or even to being airborne.

[@bsa45acp]

@@joeys8701 Thanks for the update, I await the toxicology report. Back in the day I was a CFII and I have a bad feeling about where this may go...

[@iowaphotos9107]

While this is heart wrenching I appreciate the facts you present with each report. I'm not a pilot but I have experienced hypoxia and that's what I first thought here too. I hope there is something definitive found as a cause. It won't bring those poor souls back to their loved ones but maybe it'll make flying safer for others. Thanks again Juan.

[@badmonkey2222]

It was a suicide

[@AMoose454]

Rough last few weeks in aviation. We had a triple fatal accident in Michigan last week with a PA24 in IMC. No IR. Shame.

[@brucebratschi4300]

Thank you USAF. 3 times training in da chamber. 👍

[@elizabethg9346]

Excellent video. Condolences to the families of those onboard.

[@jays9211]

I have no pilot experience but have become interested in aviation recently. Great channel with great explanations even for someone with minimal knowledge

[@gregf438]

Thanks for the info Juan.

[@georgebernard2237]

I highly doubt that the autopilot was engaged as the climb fpm was erratic and the plane had relatively large heading deviations.

[@nickb6975]

Anyone notice anything familiar when Juan was pointing out the crash location in regards to the GASHE intersection with the mouse pointer? Looked exactly like the sprial the aircraft made. I am willing to bet the autopilot was circling the waypoint. Why the decent? No idea. I'm really looking forward to the NTSB report on this one. Fly safe all.

[@artd.]

Spot on..........

[@zinny54]

Good Job Juan, clear and factual as usual.

[@Bitterrootbackroads]

Medical oxygen providers have handheld meters the size of a cell phone for testing equipment. I'm sure these things could be made to sample air several times per minute, and provide a jarring audible alarm below a minimum oxygen level. Possibly loud enough to startle one into lifesaving action during early phase of hypoxia?

[@nightsailor1]

Can ATC request an "Oxygen check'? re: slurred voice. Maybe a mandatory pulse oximeter sensor input, smart watch type or?? would be a wise variable to monitor.

[@dopiaza2006]

Too low for oxygen issues when it started - he sounded unwell under 12k

[@samsam18200]

@@dopiaza2006 maybe, but the first audio clip is at 14k. Going from ground to 14k within 10 or so minutes can cause some of the early symptoms of hypoxia.

[@beezalbub7325]

Atc could ask them to don their oxygen mask, it would not be mandatory by any means and most controllers probably wouldn't recognize a problem with so few transmissions. As you can hear, the controller thinks it is a radio problem, especially since the pilot said earlier they think they fixed the problem.

[@tinbum45]

I was fully expecting to hear "Oxygen Oxygen Oxygen"

[@chrisjohnson4666]

Im a FT Medic and he sounds classic hypoglycemic... Id ask if he was a known diabetic... I thought hypoxia as well but Juan said he started out that way???

[@Graygeezer]

Thank you for the professional reporting. Excellent as always.

[@pietervaness3229]

Juan, I , also , agree that pilot indeed steamed " off " as one of the other commenters here noted X if... and when you obtain an amplification of this event, hopefully you shall post it on your excellent site X. THANK you

[@guh123]

It's a long process to enroll, but the FAA does offer free hypoxia training in Oklahoma City to civil pilots. More information here: www.faa.gov/pilots/training/airman_education/aerospace_physiology/

[@JohnKJohnson]

They also bring the equipment to local airports. I did it at KUAO a few years back. Eye opening, some guys lost consciousness, but were quickly masked and revived.

[@tonymckeage1028]

Great vlog, thanks for the info juan, thanks for sharing

[@wpherigo1]

So sad. Too bad there’s not a way for autopilot to take you to your destination or the nearest airport if ATC declares your flight as an in air emergency with the pilot not in control.

[@heathertaylor4677]

Any updates on this one? I tried to find a report on NTSB site, but nothing for this date. Kinda hit home as I live in Troutdale and have airplane watched most of my life.

[@YodpilotID]

Civilians can do the chamber btw. Done it several times in ND

[@davidobyrne9549]

Took a day to get in there ! Here in UK we can get a helicopter with fire crew and medevac team on scene of any air crash within an hour max.

[@mykofreder1682]

The final looping seemed controlled, the alarms should keep someone from flying high with low cabin pressure, the pattern does not seem like something a plane would do on it's own if auto pilot were not engaged. The lack of radio indicates incapacitation, the turn indicates control maybe a problem that caused the turning and the pilot had his hands full so did not talk on the radio.

[@imaner76]

I hate to speculate, but cabin pressure loss? Hypoxia.. AP elements disengaged and descending rotation unflown rotate down... I do hope we fine out.

[@imaner76]

Ah I kept watching, you covered that. Premature typing disorder right there. 🤔

[@maxmackinlay618]

If it was a medical episode, what was the other person on board doing?

[@mica24play]

The Fugoid [?sp] effect was achieved, by the aircraft. A natural aerodynamic effect of a aircraft under 'passive control' by environment. It can be altered very subtly with rudder trim, \[ I would trim for heading, on ALT HLD, if using Auto pilot during climb out in that mountains area by personal preference. Shifty Winds, I prefer to beat with a stick. I like to fly by hand, still * Putting myself in the seat, so to speak. The Crash pilot was only rated a Private pilot, so very likely using auto pilot in a complex aircraft.] *but kicked off in a moment of panic/lucidity, to instantly lower the altitude.[ explaining the moderate Bank] once the pilot was fully unconscious, the aircraft would have re- assumed the Fugoid effect with the resultant slight banking angle provided only by rudder trim. (Asymmetrical thrust settings could also account for a moderate banking angle/or a combination of both.) Ailerons in a neutral fluttering state. Elevators also uncontrolled. The Flight Path depicts this theory perfectly despite the flaws of the data, not keeping up with the changes in the aircraft [real-time] as quickly as I would have preferred to see...... If you think about it, it is actually lucky the aircraft naturally attained such a natural balance giving a 'conscious' pilot enough time to recover the aircraft. Engineering brilliance for an uncontrolled aircraft to 'circle a point' so well and so many times, you could see the wind drift, on the radar track. The deviations in Altitude, are the Fugoid waves. Pilot incapacitation, is nearly certain. Reminds me of the Paine Stewart Crash..... [sudden loss of cabin psi, Fuel EXHAUSTION...cause unknown.] Difference being an unpowered aircraft has oscillation waves [fugoid waves] of increasing magnitude, till it is vertical. Aircraft under power are naturally more stable, even when no control impute is made. I learned Hypoxia, both climbing mountains and in Flight Training, and I compare it to drinking a six-pack in 2 minutes. On the ground you can sit down and pass out. HIGH in thin air, it is more problematic. Especially when the pilot is conditioned to near sea level Physically. I did my flight training in Idaho based at 4470 feet' Just going 10,000 AGL was nearing the edge of what a person acclimated to sea level pressure, could handle without confusing effects, quite suddenly and without external ques.

[@tgmccoy1556]

I've had a chamber ride when I was in the CAP. Done a lot of hard IFR no Autopilot. Over the Cascades. Something seems to be (to me) more than hypoxia. I'd say medical. Diabetic shock? Looking at the crash site I Doubt it we will ever know..

[@gosportjamie]

Surely, if this does turn out to be a hypoxia incident due to depressurisation then the previous accident history of the aircraft could be relevant. If the aircraft had suffered undetected damage to a pressure bulkhead in the previous runway excursion then it's quite possible that could have deteriorated further and led to the loss of cabin pressure...

[@RealGoldRealWealth]

The loss of cabin pressure is one thing... the loss of 2 people and an aircraft is something else.

[@gosportjamie]

@@RealGoldRealWealth Precisely. With this being a fatal event, one would rather expect everything to be considered. Pressure bulkhead failure has led to fatal losses before, sadly...

[@RaysDad]

The blood tox may answer a lot of questions.

[@280zjammer]

It’s almost like when I fly because I still have everything to learn. I’ve had similar experiences fighting auto pilot in my simulator before I figured out what I was doing wrong.

[@HuckThis1971]

They were cleared to 23000 but kept on climbing and started to descend at 30000. Hypoxia? Pilot illness?

[@robinc6308]

HuckThis1971 Problamatic issues appear before that point.

[@oldcat3439]

Thank you for your very instructional videos. One question re the pressure breathing mask:. How do pilots handle the wearing of necessary vision correction eyeglasses ?

[@bobshaw4063]

How sad . May all aboard RIP .

[@rhbusby]

Only 50 miles from my home. Bummer to say the least

[@lubbas72]

Please explain hypxia emergancy. Me as a simple non athlete, I can easily hold my breath for almost a minute, at least at rest. When you’re In a aircraft at altitude when a catastrpohic decompression occurs , you seem to be delirious in a couple of seconds. Why?

[@ratrodshaggy4840]

If it was a rapid decompression then you don’t have time to take a deep breath to hold it. It’s so unexpected. It would be like somebody just suddenly telling to to hold your breath. Doesn’t matter if you take a deep breath if there’s already not enough oxygen.

[@MemoriesRR]

Thank you.

[@divineknowledge4607]

Is it possible a something went really bad really fast and he didn't communicate because aviate, navigate, communicate? Looks like he started trying to turn back or something caused to the turn and rapid decent. Look at the mechanics log to see what damage happened at the last incident with that aircraft. What might have been missed that slowly crept up to this day and caused the sudden failure.

[@davidd6635]

I was thinking he maybe didn't feel that well initially, and then got into the flight, maybe did take a little O2 and thought, ok, I'll be ok, took oxygen mask off, at altitude, but wasn't ok. Whether or not this proves to be oxygen related, we all need training in a chamber to recognize our own personal symptoms of hypoxia.

[@BalooUriza]

I strongly suspect this guy had a stroke on departure, like that flight was doomed by the time he got wheels up. It's been a while since I've been out of KTTD but I looked it back up, that loop at the start doesn't make much of any sense. And the way he sounded on the radio sounded not quite there.

[@TeachAManToAngle]

The owner of the plane and presumed pilot: Rick Boehlke. Portland. Interesting history if you google him.

[@blancolirio]

link?

[@golfnovember]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/aIm8lXWgiNmUmbs

[@golfnovember]

I’ll say this...it’s too early for conjecture. The link is a bit much with presumption, but gives a little history behind the pilot and plane.

[@JeffCounsil-rp4qv]

@@golfnovember Dan's usually spot on with his assessments...

[@JeffCounsil-rp4qv]

@@golfnovember If Dan is on the right track, it could have been the pilot took drugs to "ease the pain" which could explain his lethargic voice...

[@testboga5991]

Stroke?

[@az_pit_viper4270]

Rest in peace 😥😥😥

[@wuseling]

Is suspicion of "incapacitation" that often? I found another "incapacitation" involving Cessna 208B, VH-DQP, near Brisbane Airport, Queensland, on 2 July 2020.

[@markb.1259]

I don't know why Dan's review of this accident is already calling it pilot suicide. Was there a letter found that you didn't address? Just seems premature unless there was something else found that neither Dan or you covered. Hypoxia sure seems like a possible cause to my untrained mind. Very sad.

[@erniecolussy1705]

Is it possible that items packed in dry ice were being transported on this aircraft? If there was something packed in dry ice could the CO2 from from the dry ice's sublimation have caused a hypoxia event? What standards exist and how widely are these standards known? With more cold items being shipped including some packaged in dry ice I wondered if this was a possible factor. I has heard stories related to people having dry ice in cars.

[@marqueswilsonn]

Is a cabin pressure check not a part of the preflight?

[@ronaldjennings8057]

Yeah I listen very well what you said it sells logical that might of what happened but Ain't It Strange in the last few days I'm wondering myself what the heck is going on why appreciate your video I learn a lot by listening to you thank you once again all I tell Pete we love him he's a good kid I hope you learned a lot from you if he decides to fly he's got an excellent pilot can't wait to the next video have a great day

[@chineechik]

Are two pilots required on this type of aircraft if there are passengers?

[@mattiasbjorklund9520]

On another note, I see that you also got the Hind walkaround suggested...

[@johncheresna]

Thanks

[@merlepatterson]

Cabin depress?

[@kenclark9888]

Initially assigned to FL230

[@kevinferrell6466]

What is a P/G-111 rating? Is that a Gulfstream III?

[@jetstreamer374]

The Citation and its spiral slight instability is taught in many flight dynamics courses at aerospace faculties

[@nwbackcountry5327]

Any chance the bleed air used to pressurize the cabin became contaminated with carbon monoxide?

[@thereissomecoolstuff]

No chance whatsoever. 100% impossible. Great question though.

[@dennisharrington6055]

Thanks. Sad.

[@dlvox5222]

I took hypoxia training in the Navy. In the chamber. It onsets rapidly. Simple math problems are funny and difficult. Everything was funny. Patty cake was almost impossible. Then we donned our O2.

[@mqbitsko25]

Maybe. But what was the other guy doing?

[@samsam18200]

Very sad... Know the early warning signs of hypoxia!!

[@danilorainone406]

guy conked out,,head on ypke,column nose down

[@gawoodbridge]

First, you can go to the FAA center in OKC and play in the altitude chamber: www.faa.gov/pilots/training/airman_education/aerospace_physiology/. Also, if he was climbing in VS Mode on the autopilot, does the autopilot in this Cessna Citation switch to IAS mode automatically in the climb?

[@slayer6936]

My old girl friends dad was a pilot in the Air force and he said he was so high and then just passed right out in the chamber!

[@dawnboyd1753]

Over eight years at Beale flying 'Q' tanks with the 9th ARS I did the chamber a few times. The best one was was when the Sargent running the show said "As the pressure decreases you will feel abdominal pressure.... Officers feel free to pass flatus....enlisted just go ahead and fart."....Capt Mike....... SAT

[@allclassicmotors]

Took my Naval aircrew training at Pensacola Fl, the chamber ride was very telling. During the prime of my life at 26 years of age, I removed my O2 mask at 25K feet & within 20 seconds I was right at the doorstep of incapacitation. Another time I was in a DC9 that lost cabin pressure at 36K ft, once I had my O2 mask on, I checked my fingernails, oh oh, they were turning blue, I quickly tried another mask & they turned pink. This flying thing can be tricky.....

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

Did The Chamber" at Valdosta, Georgia in 1971. Crazy to suddenly start making math mistakes without knowing it. The real surprise for me was the sudden depressurization. You feel like your body or skin sort of expands a bit. and the place gets all foggy as you reach for the mask..

[@DennisGentry]

@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Yeah, one of my first symptoms is that doing mental arithmetic gets very slow. Weird! (I've spent plenty of time in the mid 20,000's in my Mooney.)

[@Purlee100]

I get quite euphoric, and from reasonably low altitude, about 13K upwards these days, old age coming on I guess, at least I know what it is. I did a de-compression chamber years ago, including a rapid. I never realized there were so many parts of your body that air could come out of!

[@billcallahan9303]

Juan, just pause it when you want to talk. We'll put up with it. Your input is more valuable than letting the video play through. My thought was hypoxia too but his voice was slurred from initial Center contact at low altitude. Possibly sickness/ medication or alcohol is my guess..

[@delukxy]

Yes, your voice over during the ATC section was mostly inaudible.

[@Cissy2cute]

Slurring may be an indication of stroke. Sometimes the person doesn't even realize they are slurring.

[@michaelashby8506]

@@delukxy I concur. It would be useful if the ATC is paused so that what he was saying is audible. I am surprised that Blancolirio allowed this to happen.

[@billcallahan9303]

@@Cissy2cute True that Cissy! Being 72, I'm overdue for slurred speech. :)

[@Cissy2cute]

@@billcallahan9303 I can relate....

[@davidkennedy3050]

Symptoms of impairment before reaching altitudes where hypoxia are problematic would indicate some other type of medical event.

[@stubbypeeps3166]

Diabetes (?) Stroke (?) Seizure (?) Intoxication (?) As Juan noted, he sounded 'off' from the start -

[@raybankes7668]

im questioning his impairment, how ever the unusual decent early in the flight is odd, his speach was different. Id like to hear him talking to departure or even TTD tower and compare his speech to later in the flight. he does a decent turns similar to what is in the check list for emergency decent. maybe he was having a medical issue himself and realized it, however he flys the plane. near the end he does get into quite tight turns hes not stall spin. It will be interesting to see what was going on.

[@doug112244]

@@raybankes7668 I wonder if he finally realizes there is something wrong with him, assumes it's hypoxia and starts an emergency descent which doesn't help because he is experiencing something else.

[@adamrak7560]

​@@doug112244 lower altitude can help in almost all medical cases (except epileptic seizures), so an emergency descent seems a good idea, if possible. If you have a 100% oxygen source, it can keep you alive in cases when you would normally die, even at low altitude. So if you have similar symptoms to hypoxia, even on the ground, using that oxygen mask is very good idea (it could be a stroke, AFib, basically any cardiac, pulmonary or vascular event).

[@josephjolly1936]

Working for Cessna at One of the factory owned service center for over 33 years, I would imagine they have people on sight. Horrible news.

[@fredricunderhill204]

The ATC was very professional and thorough. She immediately called for private verification.

[@eliotmansfield]

yes she seemed on the ball

[@tempname6632]

There was something already a bit off with the flight from the get go - flying too low, radio management etc. I'm not sure it was only a top of climb issue - the whole flight felt a bit off.

[@dwaynejohnson6277]

Im wondering about mechanical malfunctions. Why is no one talking about those possibilities?

[@raymarshall6721]

@@dwaynejohnson6277 If you have listened to the ATC audio the pilot seems to be somewhere else completely (mentally) well before climbing above 14,000 feet. Speech was slurred, delayed at times replying, almost like they were asleep (well below hypoxia issues). I doubt a mechanical issue would be the cause for him to act like that, let alone continue to climb to over 30k feet.

[@afwaller]

Agree, I think it’s possible he had a stroke or some other medical issue from takeoff.

[@LIamaLlama554]

PIC under duress

[@dougfraser77]

​@@dwaynejohnson6277 Reasonable question. The answer is that mechanical malfunction doesn't seem a good fit with the pattern of facts we have at the moment. We know the flight seemed a bit 'off' from early in the flight with that brief unexpected descent around 2117 UTC. We know that at one point he (maybe) dialled a completely incorrect altitude into the autopilot. We know the pilot was communicating on the radio, with apparently slurred speech, and he made no mention of mechanical issues or any problems at all. The almost symmetrical spiral descent seemed consistent with no active control inputs being applied. So the most likely explanation at this time is pilot incapacitation.

[@matthewjones9065]

Juan as always we deeply appreciate all your hard work and your information that you provide us about the aviation industry. It's always incredibly sad when there's an accident, but it's very informative to find out how to prevent future accidents and what people should be mindful of when operating aviation aircraft. God bless you, and God bless the family of this pilot.

[@sp1nrx]

The pilot (Rest in Peace!) sounded "off" as soon as he first contacted ATC so I don't know if hypoxia could have been the problem. I'm thinking stroke. Strokes sometimes last minutes/hours. Prayers for him and his family.

[@johnpinckney4979]

How much of a hazard is CO exposure in a GA jet? Back when I was active (Getting hit by a DWI cost me my Medical...) every aircraft I flew had a "Save-A-Life" dot sticker. Are these needed/used in jets?

[@thomaswhite935]

I didn't hear a "Cabin Alt" alarm in the background.

[@TheBeingReal]

Sure sounds like a stroke.

[@devnullNZ]

@@TheBeingReal or diabetes - hypoglycemia onset is sudden & is often misinterpreted as being drunk

[@wayneschenk5512]

Stroke sounds plausible his voice did sound ok on one reply then slurred the next.

[@edchester1773]

I was an AME in the US Navy on the USS America during the 6 Day War, I loaded Liquid Oxygen onto the aircraft....................... It was great for hangovers at 17-21 years old

[@richardkadar7673]

We took O2 bottles to crew rest at LaPaz, Bolivia because the field elevation was over 14,000'. One glass of wine with dinner was too much! ;)

[@timothycampbell495]

It was also great for making instant Gatorade slushies at Altus when the flightline could hit 115 in August!

[@joshadam7336]

Flying out of KTTD all IFR aircraft are required to fly the blue lake 3 departure. The departure (for RWY07) consists of an initial turn to the left to 055 until 1000’ and then another left turn north west to 310 to incept the battleground VOR. his departure was not consistent with standard IFR departures off of TTD. Also the 370 that you see in the data block on the left would be his final altitude for which he filed not the autopilot setting.

[@johnwright8703]

I got my pilot license at Troutdale, KTTD. my instructors name was Delcie Paulk. Is she still there? This was back in 2007.

[@joshadam7336]

@@johnwright8703 yes, she still works at Gorge Winds

[@johnwright8703]

@@joshadam7336 Thank you.

[@clerkmaxwell7912]

Yes, that's correct. Been a few years since I've flown out of there.

[@clerkmaxwell7912]

I was flying out of there starting in 1972. Dave Brisbane was flight instructor. We used to kid around about having a logging chain hanging under the windsock for the gorge winds.

[@6yjjk]

I assume that the "sine wave" variation in groundspeed at the end is an effect of an alternating headwind/tailwind in the descending spiral?

[@blancolirio]

Yes.

[@stay_at_home_astronaut]

@@blancolirio the pilot was sluggishly speaking when he was at 14,000. Kinda low for being full on hypoxic even with NO cabin pressurization... Stroke, aneurism , thrombosis, heart event and medicine side effects are possible, followed by alcohol or recreational drugs. I doubt there was anything wrong with the aircraft.

[@johnpinckney4979]

@@stay_at_home_astronaut Not only the slurred speech, but the labored breathing.

[@dawnboyd1753]

It's in a moving air mass. The airplane doesn't care , headwind... tailwind...The bird is seeking equilibrium. .....When my model gliders did that I'd just re-trim the tail feathers or adjust the CG......Stops the hunting. .....Your GS will vary due to the HW or TW I may be wrong but it's what my father taught when I about nine or ten.....But he was only in AF flight test and it was way back in fifties so who knows how times and the laws of physics have changed Capt. Mike SAT

[@TIO540S1]

@@dawnboyd1753 Flightradar 24 gets ADS-B groundspeed, not airspeed.

[@lex1945]

I watched and listened the VAS aviation transcription, and at some moment i also thought it could be pilot incapacitation.

[@trishayamada807]

That spiral at the end on the radar with the descent numbers plummeting made me physically ill. So sad.

[@tomtheplummer7322]

Yes, I viewed those as well.

[@Isaac-sj3jh]

30 year History as a Paramedic retired. This guy sounded like a stroke patient to me with slurred speech, falling forward to the weak side holding the yoke and pulling it to the right causing the right turning spiral.

[@danielw4401]

Was kinda thinking a recent onset of AFib that didn't tolerate mild hypoxia well, or something similar. Stroke fits the bill though. Definitely sounded more like a medical episode from the start. Hope it wasn't toxicological

[@19Photographer76]

@@danielw4401 AFib was a good differential call but once he started to spiral, well...occlusive stroke?

[@danielw4401]

The thought was that an arrhythmia would explain the apparent altered mentation early in the flight, and that a decrease in oxygenation could have precipitated a deterioration to a more serious rhythm like RVR. Stroke is definitely a possibility. The seemingly gradual onset just had me thinking more about a circulatory collapse of some sort. Listing definitely provides a convincing explanation for the spiral though.

[@Isaac-sj3jh]

@@danielw4401 Absolutely a great possible differential diagnosis with RVR A-fib. I also thought about maybe an AMI with acute Bradycardia which would also lead to hypoxia at low altitude and of course as he climbed the conditions would have gotten worse in this scenario. Dying Heart = Dying Brain = Dying Heart. Vicious cycle as I use to teach new Medics.

[@mikecrawford3805]

First thought to my mind, after listening to the ATC, “possible stroke, or blood sugar issue”. Either of these events, and possibly, coupled in tandem, with another “issue” is certainly a plausible scenario, to me.

[@johnvandenakker3245]

Thankyou Juan. Your content is always articulate with a masterful eloquence of transmission. Your visual presence is reassuring. It is sad that a man of your caliber has the sorrow that accompanies your news releases.