Challenging Terryl Givens - A Conversation About "All Things New"

Terryl and Fiona Givens' most recent book, All Things New: Rethinking Sin, Salvation and Everything in Between has received a remarkable amount of positive attention since it was published by Faith Matters a few months ago. We’ve been delighted to see that it’s resonated with so many people. Because of its bold scope, it has also sparked some wonderful debate.
In this week’s podcast episode, we collected some challenging questions from readers and posed them to Terryl. What followed was a really illuminating exploration of the book’s main ideas. As you might expect, Terryl had some really good answers to some really challenging questions.
Fiona is in Guam visiting her daughter’s family and was not able to join the conversation, but Terryl was as articulate, well-versed, and insightful as always. Enjoy this conversation with one of today’s most brilliant and engaging Latter-day Saint scholars.

[@christianelauener8975]

Maybe you are interested to know that a listener from Switzerland has been following you from the beginning and has read almost all of Teryl Givens books as well as those Fiona co-authered with him. I cherish the insights and the fresh perspectives. Also the awareness of the 'wind of change' that is blowling through the ranks top to bottom. The churchs aim for emotional and spiritual resilience needs the perspective of woundedness instead of sinfulness in the steps to healing. Your contributions are very much appreciated thank you

[@teena4rl211]

I am not LDS, but I am a long fan of Teryl Givens' books, which I think contain insights for all followers of Jesus Christ, regardless of denomination. Excellent interview and, as always when reading or listening to Mr. Givens, I am educated and inspired.

[@555huck]

Transcending denomination is nessacary, to come to a complete knowledge of Christ.

[@siumanspringer2014]

This is so good. Amen in every word! I have been enriched, enlightened and empowered! Thank you Brother Givens. Congratulations on your twins!!!!!

[@juliecrockett6394]

Thank you for combining your faith and expertise in helping break through so much of the cultural challenges that keep some from receiving the great gift of joy the gospel offers. Your work has resonated with my soul.

[@davidfrey5654]

When I think of God's judgement I just always go back to the story of the woman found in adultery and how the Savior reacted to that situation. He defended her against those who were judging her. And he didn't scold her or tell her, "How could you do that?" or "What were you thinking?" He just said, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.” THIS is the type of judge I want judging me. An understanding and merciful judge who loves me but is resolute in his desire for me to overcome my sins.

[@wendyfisher8609]

I loved this conversation, thank you!!

[@kavaliere77]

This is pure gold. Thank you!

[@wadedavida]

Rereading the book now which resonates with me but also vacillating on what to think of some perspectives. I appreciate and thank Bro Givens and the hosts for addressing some of these in the interview and for what I think appears to be a sincere desire to help define and perhaps elevate choices in language, and in turn our perfectly flawed yet aspirational Zion community that I love to participate in and wish all to discover. I admire the level of thoughtfulness and organization in the book. The first three chapters do seem to make a credible case for the theses.

[@GodblessAmericans]

Remorse from the spirit Guilt from the natural man Great to see these topics being addressed 👍🙌

[@carolswarbrick1505]

I have so enjoyed these discussions.. a gift.

[@jaroldroyc.lubaton6745]

This is thought provoking. Inspiring

[@carolswarbrick1505]

I think your guests are wonderful and truly trying to understand. 🇬🇧

[@Divineheart7]

I loved this book and it brought comfort to me as I do my best to choose the right. I know my Heavenly Parents love me, but this book helped me feel it. Thanks for all you do and I hope you are successful in your efforts. ❤

[@alisadunn5443]

Thoroughly enjoyed this discussion!

[@pammonson3036]

Thankyou for this conversation. I have read this book and your discussion helped settle my questions. I love the concept of woundedness rather than sin but still recognize that there is indeed sin.

[@askinfaithpodcast]

Absolutely fascinating and enlightening! Thank you!

[@leonardjwalker3717]

I enjoyed listening to this conversation. So agree we need to be more Christ like loving and tolerant of each other. We do not know what is in someone's heart and what their motivation really is. Judgement is the Lord's. Another scripture came to mind when you were talking about the thought of the third parts that influence us. Either 12:27 "And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them." To me Heavenly Father allows (gives) our emotions, thoughts feelings, disposition, attitudes, life circumstances in order for us to grow to be like Him through gospel processes. I feel He means by weakness our thoughts, attitudes, motivations and behaviours in relation to His commandments. To become strong, to me, He is saying He can help us be strong to keep His commandments as He requires so we get glory in the next life. Some people are born into wealth or use their skills to get it, others born into poverty or throw what they have away. Some people are born into abusive families and some into loving ones. Some people have high anger management needs and some are very placid. Some people have high sexual drives and some are very low. These are just a few examples. We all have some weakness and are currently fallen short of the glory of God. To me whatever are nature is or circumstances we encounter on our mortal journey the purpose for us is to live the commandments and the Lord is saying that by having faith in Him we can. It is the Lord who will decide our eternal fate, and us imperfect mortals to in a Christ like manner help our brothers and sisters on our journeys.

[@PainH8er]

I loved this! Thank you!

[@bruceparsons6299]

We feel guilt for what we do, we feel shame for what we are. It's sorrowful to confuse the two and to not see the distinct value of each one.

[@carolswarbrick1505]

Oh this is true...so needed to be understood...🇬🇧

[@Susieqbjoe]

Thank you

[@mwhitney2042]

I was looking forward to this- and it was okay, but I was disappointed that the FM team didn’t ask a very simple question: If God looks upon Sin with the least allowance; and Brother Givens explicitly states there is actual sin, which presumably requires repentance (apart from the poor-me-I’m-wounded kind of sin most of the book deals with.) -- YET, there is no retributive justice involved, what then is meant by the Savior ‘paying for’ my sins? What was that half of the Atonement about? Was it even required? There are just too many scriptures that aren’t simply waved away with the ‘woundedness’ construct. There must be some kind of universal law that says certain acts require cleansing- and we can’t get clean alone. After all the sanctification of change, forgiveness, and growth, with this book, there seems to be an end-run around the need for ‘justification.’ I LOVED the book- it IS a game changer. I DO get the nuance and the ‘various audience’ argument. And the interview, discussing scrupulosity was super helpful for me. I guess I need a 2nd edition of the book with a chapter addressed just to me called “‘Nuance” from “You’ve missed the point’ to “let’s try this again.”

[@Utah-Guide]

Thanks for adding your thoughts and perspective that seem to be missing from so much of this type of discussion.

[@mwhitney2042]

@@Utah-Guide Thanks, but I guess I’m still confused. What are we to do with Elder Packer’s debtor metaphor? Did Jesus Pay for my sins? Imagine I’ve got three kids: Tyler, Brett and Lindsay. Under retributive or penal substitution the story reads like this- Tyler breaks the rules of the house. Dad kicks Tyler out… but promises Tyler that because Brett beat up Lindsay, if Tyler hugs Lindsay he can come home. What kind of Dad would do that? As their dad, what kind of jerk would I be to make Lindsay suffer so she can subsequently ‘advocate’ for Tyler and persuade me to let him back in the house? Just what was it Jesus was doing for us under either this conventional (albeit reductionist) schema or under the woundedness schema. I just feel like I’m getting more and more dumb about stuff that really matters and this is a big one. I need help with it. Because Givins has confused me beyond repair when it comes to Atonement theory.

[@thawts9087]

Read Alma 34. There is absolutely a need for the atonement to pay for our sins and allow the demands of Justice to be met. I think the mincing of words comes to how we define justice and retributive justice. Givens is merely giving an opinion on the matter and shouldn't be seen as a source of authority; I would look to what the prophets say on the matter (both ancient and modern). Teryl is a good man, but isn't in a position to offer insight, revelation, or guidance that goes beyond the prophets words.

[@carolswarbrick1505]

We were free to come to our parents..not forced. It was our choice as we came to this earth from arms of a loving heavenly Father...🇬🇧

[@Sayheybrother8]

When defining someone as wounded there can be a tendency for members to ostracize that person in an attempt to avoid unholy people or places. There is much pride among members to associate with respected and publicly worthy individuals (those with callings). Also, peoples lives are so busy and challenging to begin with. To stop and help the men or women who have fallen on the side of the road can distract from their responsibilities and callings. It hurts to think it’s easier for members to spend two to three hours helping those who have passes on than the neighbor whose house they passed en route to the temple.

[@ks4893-m8v]

Thinking of those who sin as being wounded and in need of healing: “The nearer we get to our heavenly Father,” Joseph (Smith) told the Relief Society sisters, “the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs.” History of the Church, 5:24.

[@christopherjones2669]

D and C section 42 overview, " scriptures govern the church, " and by hearing and reading God's word, we have faith, Romans 10: 17, love Mr. Givens. New Testament is tougher than Old Testament, man and wife lie to Peter early in Acts 4 or 5 and their fate is sad. Be honest in prayer and show up to church, that is faith.

[@elainekoeppel7250]

You laugh about the hickory switch but that is what they did back then

[@g.p.ryecroft]

The Church is going the way of Catholicism under Francis. Downplaying sin, giving a pass to disordered affections that Scriptures plainly declare as sin (e.g., Romans 1). Terryl says he loves Spencer Kimball--has he read "The Miracle of Forgiveness"? It is 180 degrees diametrically the opposite of Terryl and Fiona's friendly, fuzzy and warm Mormonism. I mean, Boyd K. Packer, Bruce McConkie? All tossed on the ash heap of Church history for the LDS equivalents of smiling televangelist "Your Best Life Now" therapeutics and soft soaping 200 years of Church teaching. Ichabod--the glory has departed.

[@joetaylor8687]

Getting mired down in the paralysis of analysis regarding religion can easily lead people to completely overlook and discount some of the most obvious conclusions . . . like, for example, to say that "the brethren" (general authorities) receive constant revelation and direction from deity, is to say that God is essentially confused, undecided, wishy-washy, and even flaky. It's easy to say this, because it's all about non-stop flip-flop in "the Church" . . . regarding publications, proclamations, pronouncements, policies, procedures, programs, priorities, and even theology and doctrine. How can someone claim to be speaking for God if he just completely contradicts what some other supposedly inspired voice of God said?

[@jamescrane6583]

Jesus is not in the old testiment. Why would a loving god allow his church to be racist? Why would a loving god allow his church to treat women and LGBGT so poorly? Culture is a fruit of the gospel.

[@scottbowden4931]

I don't always agree with your guests or find the topics of discussion altogether inspired but any discussion relating to Terryl and Fiona's important work is compelling to me. It is my firm opinion that they are two of the most inspired thinkers of the Restoration in modern times. I have read almost all of their works and find their perspectives well considered, thoughtful and revelatory. A shift in cultural attitude has been very noticeable to this conservative "baby-boomer" - so much so, that I've had a hard time reconciling present guidance from church leaders with their past counsel. But as I watched Terryl's defense here, I come to realize that the perspectives offered compliment much of what church leaders are teaching today - the fallibility of these men notwithstanding. So, thanks! This helps.

[@mariannemarlor3242]

Is it that hard to love someone who chooses to live differently? I can’t believe your response to the person who was “happy” who asked if you couldn’t just be happy for them. Is your Love conditional? I loved your book but I was sad to hear this part of your interview. Christ asked us to Love our neighbor without judgement. The focus on Woundedness brings forth compassion and Love.

[@mwhitney2042]

Watch it again- that’s not remotely what he said.

[@123mneil]

11:26 This is a disappointing clip. Members don't like to be called cult members, right? Members don't like to have their meaning and how they are fulfilled in the gospel dismissed by others as feelings and not real and "you are just brainwashed". Yet that is exactly what you are doing to this close person that is asking you to have some humility in your beliefs and give them the dignity and agency and acknowledge that they are following the same God given intuition as you, even if they came to a different conclusion as you. I hope you understand that much of the wisdom from the bible can still be used from the point of view of a member that chooses to walk away. That quote that you referenced could easily be used against the claim of happiness that members have.

[@123mneil]

12:15 it's not much help believing that God knows when humans have an unreliable way of knowing what God knows

[@Sayheybrother8]

So I’m hearing you say that many members dint like to hear that what they’ve been taught for years is the truth and that the scriptures don’t support the heretical way leaders taught the “gospel.” The Book of Mormon contains the finless of the gospel, correct?

[@sei1391]

Yes the Bible's wisdom can still be used.. but only as much as the truth they can take out of it. If you walk away from the whole truth, you're stuck experiencing happiness in flashes not lastingly. When people who walk away from the truth or the church and say they are happy or I'm free.. they are experiencing the absence of long awaited freedom from binding obedience or barriers. Reality is.. truth is the things as they really are, were and will be. God lives, he in fact makes covenants that bind us to him, if you don't honor them or you "walk away" from them you have no promise. Now what I mean by promise is the promise of exaltation.

[@ddhatch]

,.