Challenging the Deckbuilding Template | EDHRECast 173

[@AlistairZands]

The thing is that whenever Joey finds cards Dana has never heard of he just makes Dana stronger

[@screwthisin]

Dana be like this isn't even my final form.

[@koelkast9]

Dana got so strong he got restricted in vintage.

[@facelessgames94]

More sustenance for Dana, yes yes *Dana builds a cacoon* Dana grows

[@Morrodin182]

Nice show as always. It is hard to share a template as it indeed matters a lot on your commander. Personally I like in general to play 36 lands, I have a tendency to play around 30ish creatures around 4 mana rocks (apart from any ramp) and for the rest spells. Amount of draw, removal, ramp depends. What I also have learned is to not overdo things like spot removal, counter spells. The problem in multiplayer is that more players win versus you, you removed a threat for them and they didn't have to invest anything. That being said the other side of the coin is also true. You need a minimum amount of spot removal and preferably instant speed. Finally I try to watch out not to add too many 'comes into play tapped' land. Not that a few of those lands will ruin your deck but if 1/3 of your land base comes into play tapped you will be having too many turns that you lag behind. Anyway just a few very general loose rules that I use when building decks :)

[@hopposai787]

song of the dryads, darksteel mutation, imprisoned in the moon, and cards like these are why i try to include an underrated card in most of my decks where i can fit it. that card is claws of gix. comes in useful in way more situations than you'd think.

[@chriscubbernuss3288]

I've been using Kyren Negotiations for years in Goblin decks, most recently my Krenko, Mob Boss deck. You can also use it at instant speed right before your turn or in response to a board wipe, ( targeting the player trying to wipe the board). You can just sit there, watching the game, and the moment anyone tries to screw with you, tap your army and end their game.

[@zackkelley2940]

Know what goes great with Zacama.... Zirda! Drops cost of activated abilities by 2 leaving Zacama's at a single mana per

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

From my recent Nevinyrral deck, the heavy presence of wipes is probably because he is extremely good at zombie bombing and making satirical numbers of zombies. If you drop him after a boardwipe - especially a boardwipe you pay for in advance like the Disk or Phyrexian Scriptures - you get a backbreaking zombie army. And if you have either of the Altars, instead you feed all of those to the Altar and replay him with an even bigger army.

[@Narkhada]

Wow, I was just looking through my cards I got from my step dad for my Ojer Axonil deck, and found Kyren Negotiations. It's so good in that deck if you're going the impact tremors/raid bombardment route.

[@SWNJim]

I’ve recently retooled my Edgar Markov deck to lean even more heavily into combos. I’ve found I need less removal in general because I can flood the board and swing in for lethal on the same turn using those combo pieces. They’re mostly there for stax.

[@randyjames9450]

Cool thing about Kyren Negotiations, is that it has an errata that now allows it to target players or planeswalkers.

[@Neuverfleischer]

Regarding the Ramp commanders: I assume the reason that they tend to play an increased amount of additional ramp is that they usually want to play reaaaally big spells. And as the ramp the commander provides only helps you so far regarding these big spells, additional ramp nicely compliments the commander's ramp.

[@donnytheg]

oh damn that joey time wizard joke really went over their heads that was funny as hell

[@Yontanian]

To Dana's point regarding equipment decks. For my rograkh decks I realised i could ignore all equipment that shared his abilities, which really helped narrow down the options.

[@AndrewWoodford]

March of the Machines, Titania’s Song, Yasharn, Kitaki, Stony Silence, Collector Ouphe, Null Rod… that is all.

[@TheStephenation]

Zero-drop artifacts are not what the slang term "eggs" has traditionally referred to. From Extended, to Legacy, to Modern (R.I.P. Second Sunrise), and in Canadian Highlander where it's still a relevant archetype (I've tried it in EDH myself), "Eggs" decks have been ones with artifacts that can both cheaply draw a card and send themselves to the graveyard. The original egg cycle from Odyssey consisted of Skycloud Egg, Sungrass Egg, Darkwater Egg, Shadowblood Egg, and Mossfire Egg. Did Dana mean "Cheerios"? I know there's been some use of that one as a term for zero-drops.

[@DenverEight]

Dana’s ability is probably, when this creature takes damage say “ow!” if you do, prevent that damage.

[@andrewsparkes8829]

Kykar + Kyren Negotiations + Faces of the Past = Deal N+(N-1)+(N-2) down to 0 damage, where N is the number of spirits you control (i.e. tap them all to deal damage with Negotiations, then sac one to Kykar to untap the rest with Faces, tap them for damage again, sac one again, repeat). With 10 spirits, that's 55 damage to throw around! Maybe not an infinite combo, but as a late-game finisher when people are already starting to run low on life and you've built up a spirit army, it's amazing! Edit: Kyren Negotiations is still strong on its own, though, even if you can't untap easily.

[@hopposai787]

i run kyren negotiations in my kalamax and krenko decks. it's a free tap for kalamax and if i don't have haste or enough goblins to willingly sacrifice yet it comes in handy in krenko for something to do with my goblins, especially if i poop out 20 goblins or more in a turn.

[@Morrodin182]

Yeah during the video I was also thinking 'That card is perfect for Krenko' (both versions even although I prefer his original version). I don't play it though, as I was not aware of it's existence :P (I did play during that time but its so long ago lol and unfortunately don't own the cards from that era anymore :'( ... never sell your cards 'because you stopped for good'. One does not stop MTG for good >.>)

[@atticustezza9872]

In my Magda deck I don't run any ramp technically, I just rely on making treasures with the dwarves and it works completely.

[@alexrice3180]

That card Kyren Negotiations might be a pretty good piece in Xyris wheels like Opposition

[@RezaCerna]

nice episode! I would say that when you run an aggro deck with a bunch of tokens/creatures, you don’t have so many wraths cause you don’t want to screw your board state and you hope you are faster then others at killing. so also overall strategy can change the numbers.

[@silentkingsubject]

one ideal time for a wrath in aggro is a little after another wrath from a different player, so you can screw over their attempts at rebuilding while you look for your own tools

[@thrasherftw]

@@silentkingsubject or even better, when someone cyclonic rifts and still has their stuff.

[@Dynoboot]

My Chulane deck is running more ramp and draw than it should! To be fair, it is a landfall deck, so the ramp is justified. But thanks to you guys, I feel safe on cutting some card draw. Cheers!

[@aaroncorsini6165]

Oh I love seeing that title guys

[@mong0038]

What about azusa? I found that she breaks from the play more ramp cards package except for one drops

[@mitchevett5051]

I can't wait to watch this episode!

[@zen_tewmbs]

Suggestion: do it

[@brandonhiggs88]

Is your intro song a modified version of a final fantasy 9 song? When I hear it I instantly think of ff9

[@filipskraburski732]

Please do „Upping The Average Krenko, Mob Boss”🥺👏🏻👏🏻

[@justcausee]

Just started to bling my budget build out and I'm kinda partial to all those cheap Threaten type effects (steal a creature for a turn). Almost all of them can target and untap Krenko also has the added benefit of being able to use them as intended. Three-ish mana to double the doubling of my token for pennies yes please.

[@thrasherftw]

@@justcausee yeah those are really good effects. If you have a lot of goblin sac outlets, thornbite staff can go infinite very easily, cool if you have something to do with all those goblins.

[@justcausee]

@@thrasherftw Already in the build goes especially well with prospector.

[@Matazuma]

@3:10 3:15 was Joey making a Yu-gi-oh reference?

[@SorryImissedThat]

Matt: *cracks Midwestern joke Me: *laughs in Michigan

[@drewclark8799]

Obviously this is 2 years old, so this may never be seen, BUT any chance you (or anyone) would explain the Midwest - Taupe joke?

[@SorryImissedThat]

​@@drewclark8799no problem, I love reliving this joke! Lol. The joke is a play on the Midwestern thing of saying "ope" which sounds like "taupe" after little interactions. I catch myself saying it all the time, especially while excusing myself past someone in a crowded area like "ope, just gonna get by you real quick" or something like that.

[@drewclark8799]

@@SorryImissedThat thank you!

[@thetogtube2]

Viridian Revel has a very high ceiling but the floor is so low i feel. If it had cycling I could maybe see running it... but depending on your opponent's deck for draw seems so so.... yet again ... top end is draw 10 for 3cmc

[@sammyabalos9628]

Joey had the best joke this time

[@Therodaas]

Dana has which? Tottem armor? 🤔 Regenerate? 🤔 Persist? 🤔

[@marljevincalabia3746]

Challenge the stats: elder gargaroth on adrix and nev decks. :)

[@dyciefisk2535]

Price is the reason it's not showing up more

[@FriendlyNewt]

Challenge the stats - Royal Assasin

[@jasonhart543]

Love it. I have a tap/untap heavy Dimir deck that this does so much work in. Even w/o haste, this can be a great target for removal before the actual scary stuff comes out.

[@Number1masksfan]

Danna is a plainswalker that’s why he did not die to death touch

[@willlindell8904]

pretty sure umbral mantle is a famous infinite combo in Green period, but yes

[@justcausee]

Seton Krosan Protector makes more mana than Nikya of the Old Ways change my mind. Also Kyren Negotiations is amazing in Krenko.

[@thrasherftw]

Can you tap the untapped goblins Krenko made that turn, or does summoning sickness prevent this?

[@justcausee]

@@thrasherftw Summon sick only applies if the ability is on a creature and uses the tap symbol. So since this an ability of an enchantment and not the enchantment giving the ability to the gobos. Yes you can create and immediately tap for damage.

[@MoxAmber26]

the opening joke got me so good as a midwesterner

[@corrosivecabal]

Haven't heard of Kyren Negotiations? Bro, do you even Krenko?

[@jeremy.oliver]

22:47 Eggs? I always heard them to be Cheerios

[@bladetb3934]

Cheerios are a reference to the mana cost of cards in those deck, largely all costing 0. Where eggs are artifacts that you sacrifice for an effect, typically mana and or drawing a card.

[@k9commander]

3:13 to 3:16 Was that a Yugioh joke?

[@dustinchang5089]

Someone explain the opening dad joke to me please!

[@vanessaeve925]

Midwesterner here. "Ope" is a common phrase here. Usually used in place of "oops", "pardon", or the f bomb. Taupe is a shade of brown. His pun combines the two to "t'ope"

[@bcoble121691]

How do these Zacama decks not die to aggro, if I didn't wrath the board I'd die so fast with mine

[@jacobjensen7704]

Possibly less aggro decks in their meta. You've gotta race Zacama, otherwise Zacama kills your creatures.

[@bcoble121691]

@@jacobjensen7704 I'm the Zacama player in my handful of friends. They definitely know they have to murder me, if I didn't have like 4 wraths in that deck I would get murdered so fast.

[@okgut2033]

@@bcoble121691 i think theyr zacama decks are a bit tuned up on the ramp setion: gayas, dorcs, manacrypt, all put additional lands in play and so on. So zacama savely comes out but mainly to combo of at that turn or on next one if they have a ton other options to untap all lands again. Like on one of the episodes of i hate your deck. Also some of them go to the subtheme of landfall, so they have tokens :) I personally also take a ton of boardwipes esp those that let one creature survive or ugin, the spirit dragon (btw the last one build up a softlock with zacama) Edit: the avarage zacama deck has btw 24 manaramps and 4 costreducers.... Without zacama itself xD

[@jonram6009]

Yes

[@TheVargaszm]

"challenging the template" turns out to mean "these commanders have little to no challenge in building them"

[@alexrice3180]

Also slightly surprised Yawgdad didnt show up when you guys were talking about draw or removal

[@maddworld2544]

our pod has a 25 ramp and 25 removal meta. its pretty casual cedh, lol.

[@crawdaddy2004]

I hope people actually know how Horn of Greed works…

[@Naturessightsandsounds7040]

If they know how to read I think they will be fine.

[@jamespatterson5644]

@@Naturessightsandsounds7040 Play land versus put land into play is a very common mistake.

[@happybrain2674]

ohh zacama, primal calamity needs Ugin, the Spirit Dragon for a removal. his is a strong lock...

[@emmkestrel442]

surprised how they didn't talk about decks that run a lot less lands than usual, selvala plays on average 32

[@emmkestrel442]

and thats, even from a casual standpoint, probably too many

[@sheahon1179]

Minor point but you make it sound like Nykia will double mana from creatures but that isn't actually the case

[@kwagmeijer26]

t'ope

[@spurcalluth6300]

Tokens don't end up in the graveyard, do they?

[@jacquesdespadas]

Tokens go to the gy before they disappear.

[@spurcalluth6300]

@@jacquesdespadas, I'm not sure you're right about that. As far as I know, tokens can only exist in the battlefield zone.

[@diggerdog9205]

I run way less lands than most. 🤷‍♂️

[@kameronscott7830]

I wouldn't play Viridian Revel into Smothering Tithe because they can deck you if you don't have mana to pay for the draw

[@user-yy1nb2iu7z]

Viridian revel is a may