Chapter 5: Two pastors react to Tim Alberta's book "The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory"

[@PatriciaDuffy-v7y]

I am a 75 year old Roman Catholic grandmother from Nre Jersey. I am truly grateful to have found this podcast. Pastors Pat and Dave have helped me to understand what has happened to our fellow Christians and country. I plan to purchase the book by Tim Alberta. We need to continually educate ourselves as well as pray that God will guide us through this battle.

[@AkoDal]

Thank you Pat and Dave for modeling critical discussion graciously and intelligently.

[@laurieberns]

Thank you Pat & Dave for your insight as to what’s taking place in America under the banner of “Christianity.” I have found your videos to be very interesting, to the degree that I purchased Tim Alberta’s book, so that I can read it for myself and follow along with your talks. Again “Thank you!”

[@bradforward850]

We are who Jesus was warning us about.

[@BillandDebRaab]

Thank you, Dave for your thoughts and honesty! We need more Christian leaders to stand up and speak out. There are so many things you said that are quotable, my fav is 'if you're following Trump you're not following Jesus" (or something like that.) and just quit calling yourself Christians :) God bless you.

[@deantodd8103]

"They are willing to jettison their values to protect their values." Exactly! 💯

[@eftsoulpath333]

I am not an evangelical, and that’s why I wanted to listen to this. The first word that comes to my mind when I think evangelical is hypocrisy. Thank you for giving me the viewpoint that all evangelicals are not.MAGA hypocrites

[@k4walton12]

Really good and thoughtful analysis. I wish there were more Christians who felt this way. I am a trans Christian who has been unable to find a safe Christian congregation. Mostly I would like "Christians " to leave me alone so I can get on with my life and work so I don't have to keep looking over my shoulder. God bless you all

[@gregevans4126]

@@k4walton12 We are a small group, but we are growing as more of us get brave to speak out. There is also a growing group of us whom still hold to a more traditional view of scripture, but have seen that God's ideal is we love all into Jesus. I do hope and pray you feel loved today!

[@chelabuford7106]

​@@k4walton12Evangelical is most definitely not synonymous with Christian, not all of Christianity is the same. I pray that you will continue to follow this channel and learn more about those who are Christ Followers and live it out wrapped in love.💜

[@frankcostello2973]

I am very appreciative of your messages and pointing toward being a true witness day by day God in Christ convicts me of sin and I rejoice that Christ died for me I am called to pray for these leaders and others who have been led astray by the power of politics and the cult of Trump and this is not easy for I find this truly evil and a great fallen away

[@FWR123]

Thank you Pastor Dave for speaking the truth.

[@battlejitney2197]

Thank you so much for your discussion of the truly sad state of our tradition’s current reputation. Helps me to not feel so alone in my thoughts and opinions.

[@proft1942-y7n]

Amen to that

[@reddyandre]

Thank you for addressing this, Pat, at 4:02. The point is: NOT taking a side, politically, IS taking a side. It's allowing these new, hypocritical interpretations and behaviors to become normalized.

[@michaeldunigan1067]

Can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?

[@ShirleyMarin-m1c]

I’m really enjoying this channel.

[@barbarascott8276]

I so appreciate you two.

[@LornaDoone07]

Oh wow, I just finished your chapter 4 episode, and this one just posted. Yay! I’ve been enjoying this series so much. Thank you.

[@laurac56]

Talking about fear as a tactic, many years ago, in my more conservative days, I tried listening to Rush Limbaugh. I couldn’t do it, and told my Rush-loving husband that Rush was constantly using negativity and fear regardless of who was in positions of governmental power.

[@sharijohnson4024]

As an Evangelical PK and former Evangelical missionary, I was shocked to realize that my faith was grounded in fear not love. Most Evangelicals believe that fear is more powerful than love and use fear (of hell) to "win" souls for Christ. Faith rooted in fear is as fragile and vulnerable as a house built on quicksand. Fear has no power to transform... its only power is to enslave. ...and yes, I could write a screed on this....

[@AdamJohnSwenson]

​@sharijohnson4024 - interesting point. I do think that many individual Christians are very much motivated by love, as are many churches and pastors. It's when you get to the scale of large institutions trying to ramrod through social change of the type they want (marriage, abortion, states rights, etc) that fear becomes a huge part of the equation. And of course this will depend largely on the personality and ambition of thr pastor involved too. Just thinking.... interesting....

[@jamesklein1278]

Only if you're willing to throw Biden out as well.

[@PeaceProfit]

Curtailment of privilege for the greater good of all, is neither antagonism nor persecution of anyone. 👣🕊👽

[@widsomseries]

I've harbored concerns about our nation transforming into the violence driven divided States of Russia, and the potential loss of our God-given free will has been a source of fear. However, a point made in this podcast struck a chord with me. Confronting our fears with a 'so-what' attitude can significantly diminish their hold on us. True faith involves trusting that, no matter the circumstances, Christ will be by our side, and we have alternative paths if the worst occurs. My family has already contemplated a worst-case scenario - and if Trump were to win, we would strongly consider relocating to a place with less anger, violence, hypocrisy, and hate. While no location is perfect, I hold onto the belief that goodness lies in the options available, guided by my faith and relationship with Christ. I don't want to live around a community that applauds and cheers a statement that says... "doing it the way Jesus Christ prescribes hasn't worked." I will continue to strongly advocate against Trump through prayer and discussions… but I refuse to live in fear of him and his cult followers. Thanks for your podcast. I’m hooked.

[@kimsteinke713]

I just found your channel and I pray we all vote for democracies on the books I pray we're all voting for democracy and if Joe Biden is all we have then that is all we have but Joe Biden is not a traitor so I know y'all do the right thing Americans usually always come through but I'm 63 and I've seen some things anyway this is a gay grandma in Texas checking y'all out. 🙏🏳️‍🌈

[@eftsoulpath333]

Dark Brandon rocks💕

[@michaeldunigan1067]

Evangelicals are not duped by Trump. They know exactly what they want and they think that he will get it for them.

[@proft1942-y7n]

But he won’t

[@TheDaleSwitzer]

I agree that's what they think. But Trump has betrayed everyone who ever trusted him.

[@TeraJohnson-nv2sp]

I understand that the reason the evangelical leaders who agreed to back team trump was they got some measure of political power out of the deal. What I don’t understand is why they didn’t reflect that Christ was also tempted with worldly power and he turned them down and said “get behind me satan”. Why didn’t they follow the example of Christ when they made the decision to follow such a corrupt and worldly leader?

[@trinidad2450]

You can’t speak so broadly, this isn’t fair. So many times in Scripture there’s a remnant of believers which hasn’t bent the knee to Baal, Molech or Trump, for our times. Nothing that’s happening is taking the Lord by surprise. We must pray for many who aren’t faithfully following the Lord Jesus, and are instead following the man Trump. He’s become an updated Baal for many who call themselves Christian.

[@michaeldunigan1067]

@@trinidad2450 My condemnation is for the evangelical movement generally. God is no longer working through the evangelical vision. He is doing something else.

[@loisthiessen9134]

thank you for telling the truth

[@jeremydaw56]

I have enjoyed all of the episodes so far; thank you for sharing your insightful perspectives. If I might make a suggestion on how to resolve your confusion on how evangelicals could turn such a rapid about-face on the question of candidate character, I would direct you to some of the findings of both neuroscience and social psychology. (Keeping in mind that the below is a simplification on both counts.) From the neuroscientific perspective, I would urge you both to investigate the interplays between the limbic brain, brain stem and amygdalae. Both of you are obviously coming at these questions from a neocortical view (which is why I love this series); that is entirely appropriate for pastors IMO. In fact, qualities like character and integrity are built on the gradually developed bridge between the neocortex and the limbic brain, which is why your role of guiding the interplay between emotion and Law (in the Christian case, the Bible) is effective -- when it works. The Trump era, however, has been dominated by the internet and social media, which engages the limbic brain instead of the cortex. This is quite significant, because the limbic brain makes its snap judgments (based largely on imagistic factors and/or in-group/out-group dynamics) MUCH faster than the neocortex can think its way through anything. The end result, in an ADD culture like the internet, is that the limbic brain drives essentially all cognition, calling on the cortical regions as a post hoc justification exercise to cement what the limbic brain has already chosen. This problem becomes MUCH worse when, in its turn, the amygdalae are activating the brain stem in response to fear stimuli ("under siege" and "persecution", which y'all rightly examine as significant factors in the evangelical discourse today), which in their turn direct the limbic regions to divert nearly all limbic activity into fight/flight/fawn mode. Flight isn't an option here, so the default choice is to fawn over the one who will fight FOR you. I.e., Trump. This neurobiological interplay manifests in the effect which social psychologists call "system justification". Unconscious associations activate so quickly that the thinking mind is recruited for no more than coming up with a quasi-logical story about why what the subconscious has already chosen is somehow justified. Whether it's a strong argument or not doesn't matter; it's merely an exercise to relieve cognitive dissonance. Keep it up, you two. You both remind me of my late father, who pastored in the church of Christ for 40 years before his passing.

[@culturefaithandpolitics]

Thanks for this - fascinating. A lot of new concepts for me to think about.

[@AdamJohnSwenson]

You know how they tell you to NEVER read the comments? Especially about politics? Especially about Trump of all people? That this is the comment section on these videos tells you something about this channel. Finally. ACTUAL SANE DISCOURSE. Thanks Jeremy for making these great connections, and thanks Pat and Dave for the excellent discussion.

[@nitapeterson9029]

Any advice on finding a church where people still want to follow Jesus and believe the Bible is true?

[@joycebegnaud9645]

Same issue I’m having.

[@laurac56]

It’s tough because if you find a pastor who fits the bill, finding parishioners who do adds another layer. It’s exhausting to try to be a voice of reason in Sunday School and Bible studies.

[@bwhiterma31]

@nitapeterson9029 Try an Anglican Church. Solid doctrine, found people who love Christ, not caught up in politics. It’s been refreshing. Very liturgical so it was different from our former church but we love it.

[@barbaramathew7821]

After 35 yrs living without a church I found the Episcopal Church! They follow the life of Jesus and love of all people. They believe all flesh is from God. I now am continuing my intimate relationship with the Trinity through the Holy Eucharist. Search one out and have a great religious experience for a change.

[@gospeljoy5713]

My church is non political unless calling out political but not by name. Like don't get joy from politicians.

[@T-41]

Thanks for another thoughtful and constructive program. It isn’t easy to deal with the disconnect about following Jesus and at the same time have the long history of white Evangelical Christianity supporting slavery, opposing civil rights, opposing gender equality in the public life, opposing civil rights for LGBTQ people, opposing Black Lives Matter, etc., etc. Is it possible to show ways that these Christians are doing more good than harm?

[@AdamJohnSwenson]

Just wanted to say that's exactly what I am wrestling with now too.

[@normabrien8331]

I think that instead of calling themselves Christians they should be called trumpians.

[@normabrien8331]

To this day I feel so depressed that people are still with trump despite all the things that have happened since he came into view. One thing that it’s hard to forgive is the number of people who lost their lives because of his inability to do the right thing which was to support the efforts of the medical community in urging people to be vaccinated but what is unforgivable is the fact that he knew three months in advance what was coming and yet he did absolutely nothing except to give the most ridiculous advice like drinking Clorox.

[@MarkBeals-t8j]

This verse was hard for me to understand… until trump and his cultists who claim to Christians came along! I believe God did send us trump…. As a test and these traitor trumpet cultists failed miserably… I do appreciate trump for exposing all the hypocrites we all know who the snakes are now! Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV) 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? ' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness

[@grit5124]

I absolutely agree with you. Trump is part of the sifting that is happening right now...possibly part of the great falling away.

[@normabrien8331]

In more ways than not I feel deeply sorry for Donald Trump because he does not know what he is doing to his own soul which I think is in a rotten state.

[@pamroth6975]

He doesn't have a soul he's a Narcisst

[@reneelewis6419]

Read Right Use of Will books.

[@kristinh8541]

Tares in the church.

[@kimsteinke713]

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in". Matthew 23:25 "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites For you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish inside however they are full of greed and self-indulgence"

[@simonbacaltos5660]

These evangelicals have no principles, they spin and flip flops all the time.

[@michaelkistner6286]

I'm certainly no Trump supporter. But if practicing deception disqualifies someone from holding national public office I won't be able to vote. Indeed that's exactly where I find myself. I find it ironic that folks who have participated in the construction of a system where the best liar wins are now wringing their hands over dishonesty.

[@proft1942-y7n]

True that but this country has never faced anyone as totally corrupt as Donald Trump.

[@Calcprof]

MAGA song musically is banal, I just listened to it.

[@MartinJ-t7y]

Word to the wise. Trump was born on a total lunar eclipse of Friday June 14, 1946. The Speaker of the House Mike Johnson was also born on a total lunar eclipse of Sunday January 30, 1972, Bloody Sunday that had 26 victims that horrible day. Trump turned 66 years and 6 months old (666) on December 14, 2012, Sandy Hook horror with also 26 victims that horrible day. The number 26 in Hebrew is the value and name of YHWH, Yahweh or God. Do you remember who was crucified on Friday April 3 33 A D and was resurrected on Sunday April 5 33 A D for humanity's redemption ? The odds of any one person being born on a total lunar eclipse is 1 in 8,600. The odds of a President and a Speaker of the House is astronomical. Revelation chapter 13 ×2 = 26.

[@hendihorlings2341]

And??

[@MartinJ-t7y]

@@hendihorlings2341 The number 26 in Hebrew is the value and name of YHWH, Yahweh or God. Satan is still showing his petulance towards God. St Malachy Pope Prophecies of 1139 CE states Pope Francis will be the final Pope. Mother Mary at the Garabandal Spain Marian Apparition in 1961 - 1965 also stated Francis will be the final Pope in the end times.

[@garudagal23]

🤪🙄 how i wish there was magic, that incantations worked, that there's a secret way to know the big secrets---but there is not. You know of course the calendar has been changed over and over and adjusted due to miscalculations just to begin....

[@susanstein6604]

The Pharisees were not hypocrites. The Pharisees had nothing to do with the Temple. The Pharisees had no power. The Pharisees were deeply and genuinely religious men. They wanted to democratize the Temple and turn every home into a portable Temple. They wanted to sanctify daily life. They believed that saving lives supersedes every law, including Sabbath observance. The “New” Testament’s depiction of the Pharisees is distorted 10:55 and inaccurate. Several parables make no sense if one knows the truth about the Pharisees. It’s all anti-Judaism. You can’t even keep the Saduucees, the priests, and the Pharisees straight. You just confused them. The Temple priests could be replaced by Roman authorities. The Pharisees were loved by ordinary people. The. Pharisees laid down the foundation that allowed Judaism to survive the destruction of the Temple. The Gospels were written decades after Jesus’s death by people who didn’t speak Hebrew or Aramaic or know anything about who the Pharisees really were. You should be able to criticize Robert Jeffries without bringing up the Pharisees because that is a theology of contempt for Judaism.

[@michelegyselinck5400]

"Christians under siege". That's paranoid. I don't know if Jeffress himself believes that. I'm getting the impression that he's a very cynical guy, and I have doubts about his faith in Christ if he's into power that much, but anyway. He's feeding paranoia to his flock and to everyone who listens to him.

[@sojournern]

Jeffress wants the biggest baddas sob, than we should get Putin. Let's just bring Putin over and use him as our president.

[@garudagal23]

that's what they have in trump already

[@joelelliason6843]

If these guys were around during King David's time they would be saying all these things about King David too. Another King David is here, 3,000 years later, Donald Trump, a flawed man, but a man after God's own heart like King David.

[@culturefaithandpolitics]

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Edit: I regret saying that, but only because it's a cliché. What I should have said is "Thank you for reminding me of why I need to keep going with this channel. You're not my audience - my audience is people who would never say what you just said, but who get brow-beaten into thinking they HAVE to support that sort of madness."

[@AdamJohnSwenson]

That's the argument? Hilarious. Which Psalms did Trump write again? As he reads from "Two corinithians"

[@gospeljoy5713]

If trump is a man after God's own heart the bible is fake. Trump unlike King David has never seen himself as lost sinner condemned by God apart from jesus christ. God resists the proud why God is humiliated trump. Can trump be saved? Yes but all his self glory and self righteousness must be tossed. God be merciful to me the sinner. All trump's bragging is worthless empty and vain. His thought that being president gets him to heaven is false. David was repentant and confessed his sins. David had deep intimacy with God trump does not. He skirts questions about his faith and has a brownie points christianity. I am Presbyterian I have my mom's bible the bible is the most important book on my bookshelf. When did you realize that you were headed to hell apart from jesus?

[@1844kalume]

David also was much repentant, remorseful ps51 and and very compassionate person...

[@gospeljoy5713]

@@1844kalume two things explain trump norman Vincent Peele power of positive thinking. Second he doesn't believe in creationism. Last million years powerful men have grabbed women's privates and might be a problem or might not be a problem. Very telling if no adam and eve. He got this reinforced with Jeffrey Epstein and howard stern who sees nothing sacred and women as play toys.