Will Charging Infrastructure Become Overbuilt? | New DCFC Partnerships | Coast-to-Coast EVs 19

[@johnbaker5533]

Great discussion as always. I think you guys should look at the charging infrastructure in Europe and China to see how they are doing it. They have a more mature infrastructure and EV ownership and gives insights about how the US might look.

[@mossimo972]

Hey guys. Model Y and Leaf driver here from Phoenix. I have been following Eric for years and love his station reviews. I really like that Walter is carrying the torch. You guys are doing much to help the community. Eric, Steve, and Walter. You guys rule. For Walter, I was thinking these providers may be growing enough to make your list that you track: EVCS, Flo, Red E, EV Gateway, BP Pulse

[@newscoulomb3705]

Thanks! I'm going to try to test out an EVCS station soon.

[@plugandplayEV]

Thanks for the support and suggestions. We appreciate it and I'm personally excited to see how many options Walter has to potentially track!

[@Longsnowsm]

If businesses and employers would install L1 and L2 charging in parking lots much of this congestion should start to clear up in the metro areas where people are still trying to use DCFC like a "gas station". I won't say road trip is overbuilt until we finally have redundancy and competition on those major corridors. Get off the major corridors and into rural America there are lots of places with ZERO charging yet.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

Yes but only high power 48-amp stations in areas like grocery stores. You must remember that commercial areas have 208/120 volt power and not 240 volts. So 48 amps will only deliver about 10 kW of power instead of around 11 kW in residential areas. 30 or 32-amp AC chargers are out of date and should no longer be installed in public since you only get 6 kW of power.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

Great discussion, I do wish hotel AC charging would have been mentioned as it also contributes to improving public perception about EVs. It shows travelers that road tripping an EV with an overnight charging stop makes EV travel just as convenient as driving near your home. I think the biggest barrier to EV adoption is lack of public understanding regarding charging. Multi-unit dwellings and areas with only on-street parking are also areas of concern that were touched upon in the discussion. Overall, it just needs to be easier to charge overnight whether you're staying in a hotel, live in an apartment, or live in a house. Travel corridor DC fast charging is well on its way to being solved, although there is still work to be done. But as the statistics say, few people road trip long distances more than once or twice a year.

[@newscoulomb3705]

Definitely. I think we were trying to stick to DCFC, but AC charging keeps popping up because it is such a huge x-factor. L2 AC charging is another reason I think we are at risk of overbuilding DCFC infrastructure. If all multi-unit dwellings and residential areas with street parking were required to have L2, the number of DCFC required in cities would drop. Likewise, charging at hotels/motels would reduce the need for travel chargers, and as you noted, the level of awareness it would build would be significant.

[@thenetworkarchitectchannel]

As is all too common, we have many press releases and not much actual hardware getting installed. It seems the promise of hotel charging is always on the horizon. I stopped at one location that was a Choice Hotels that too had a press release about EV charging at their properties, but the desk clerk says all the Choice Hotels are privately owned so the corp can't really do anything the owners don't want to pay for. I thin in that case, there was just a deal where hotel owners could buy from corp at a discounted rate due to the deal that was made. Hopefully as some point things will change. One bright spot. The Walt Disney World resort in Florida has been adding charging at many of their hotels. Maybe the industry will catch on too.

[@vlad2838]

A really insightful episode, gentlemen. Walter’s and Eric’s observations are spot on about how the road trip-bias in media and KZbinrs overlooks the need for people who are tenants in MUDs and older dwellings that cannot support L2. I meet many people in the city of Detroit who are eager to adopt EVs if they had access to nearby charging facilities where they don’t have to leave their cars overnight.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

Agreed, AC charging needs to be prioritized more and hopefully local electrical utilities can help out. It is a lot easier & cheaper for them to install a bank of AC chargers than even one 50 kW DCFC due to the power draw and need for transformers. Utility coordination can hopefully mean fair or reduced charging rates, especially overnight or during times of low electrical demand. We need charging wherever people park overnight, absent that then wherever they park their cars during most of the day (workplace charging). Then after that, high speed AC (10-20 kW) or low speed DC (25-50 kW) where people shop or run errands.

[@newscoulomb3705]

Definitely. I won't deny the fact that the early adopters of EVs are more likely to travel and make longer trips than the average driver; however, we still need to reach and support those average, typical drivers.

[@thenetworkarchitectchannel]

IMHO, the vast majority of DCFC is needed by daily grind EV drivers who can not charge at home. This need will only increase over time. I am not sure what the answer is, but perhaps the c-store industry will step up.

[@anthonyc8499]

I hope you guys bring Chase on as a regular

[@plugandplayEV]

Thanks, we always enjoy his contributions ⚡

[@tonym4813]

Great discussion as always guys! Bolt EUV AND Bolt EV NJ household here and I’m with Eric, from personal experience, upfront price of car was the driving factor for us going for EVs and the Bolts… and hotel ac charging would be nirvana for road trips ! Like a Tesla like bank of them! One can dream…

[@ouch1011]

My 2nd biggest concern with DC fast charging infrastructure right now is that rural areas see no love, even if they a major interstate or travel route running through them. Biggest gripe is station reliability. Even on I5 through Oregon, there are fairly large gaps between high power chargers (excluding 50kw and single charger locations, which aren’t very viable for road trips in modern evs). There are also huge, huge issues of existing charge locations that are broken, which I personally experienced the huge gap through Northern CA (that I resolved by charging at a BP Pulse charger, but it was a single charger locations). Something I’d challenge you all to do is pull up a map of the USA with DCFC 150+kw and look at what roads go through the gaps. If you’re traveling between one major city to another on a major interstate, especially on the east coast, things are pretty easy. If you look at the middle of the country or slightly in from the west coast (east of I5) then there is still a _ton_ of work to be done. Travelling from Boise, ID to the next major city in Oregon (Bend) along the main highway (Hwy 20) is nearly impossible unless in a Tesla (recently opened SC in Hines, OR). There is *1* single 62kw CCS charger for that 320mi gap. If you own a CCS car that doesn’t have SC access, you either have to hope that 1 charger is working and available, or take a huge, multi-hour detour. Same issues in central and eastern Washington and even CA to some extent. I consider myself to be a highly skilled EV driver, far better than average, and there are large areas of the west coast that I’m not sure how I’d get to in an EV. I even ran into an issue last winter where the major path between where I was and my home was closed, and I couldn’t drive the huge gap necessary to do it on the back up routes. I literally couldn’t get home. Luckily the hotel I was in was cheap and I didn’t get stuck somewhere. People don’t want to just drive between major metros, they want to drive into the country as well, so lots of work to be done there. Even if the SC network suddenly becomes entirely available, that doesn’t fix the issue entirely because it creates all sort of new issues (like the cables being too short, leading to people blocking multiple chargers, people not having adapters, not having accounts, etc.) That said, I would *love* to see Tesla open up SCs in rural areas where there aren’t other charging options. Those SCs might not see a ton of use from Teslas, but opening them up to everyone in those areas could be a game changer for non-Tesla owners and substantially increase utilization of otherwise underutilized SC locations. The need for L2 charging where people live _cannot_ be stressed enough. I see complaints constantly about people using fast charging and SC for their daily use, especially ride share and delivery drivers. Most delivery drivers should be able to drive all day on a single charge (I know I was able to) and a lot of rideshare drivers should be able to as well unless they’re working across an unusually widespread area. Beyond that, being able to own your own home is becoming more and more difficult as home prices continue to spiral out of control. Most people are not going to buy an EV if they can’t charge it reliably at home or where they work. Absolutely there needs to be regulation for EV charging at high density residential, probably 1 plug for every 10 people. There also needs to be L2 charging at basically every hotel, as that would significantly reduce the need for DCFC on road trips, especially in rural areas where a road trip might only be 3-400 miles a day (due to slower speeds). Big companies also need to prioritize L2 charging. I would for a massive, international tech company that has a major presence in the PNW. Tech bros love EVs, I see tons and tons of EVs of all varieties on campus. I think we have maybe 15 EV chargers for a campus with 20,000+ employees. I work during night shift when it’s mostly technicians and not the engineers who drive EVs, so I can usually get in to charge, but during the day? Forget it.

[@newscoulomb3705]

Yes, I'm definitely familiar with the issues in Northern California and Southern Oregon. I-5 is at least covered on paper, but as you said, after filtering out the

[@rickmcdonald7075]

We are nowhere near overbuilt. There are two 50kw charging stalls in Bluff, UT, otherwise nothing in the 4 corners area these are major travel routes that are impossible in an ev between major national parks like Arches, the Grand Canyon, Zion and Bryce.

[@ArtiePenguin1]

I agree. Even Tesla has large gaps off the Interstate corridor in states like Nevada, Kansas, New Mexico, and Utah. The few Tesla stations in the Four Corners region are 10+ year old early Version 2 Superchargers, some still at only 120 kW max.

[@joeldheath]

Road tripping across I10 (southermost east-west interstate) is fine even if you're just counting EA. We've done Austin to Ft Lauderdale round trip twice. Anything North of that, I can't speak to.

[@thenetworkarchitectchannel]

ten is a long stretch of road. Areas are pretty desolate, but others are sweet spots. Not Jacksonville. That city needs a good pressure washing.

[@joeldheath]

@@thenetworkarchitectchannel I didn't think about this when I initially commented, but I also have the long range Ioniq 5 so I may not have a good handle on how far apart chargers feel to those with less range.

[@laloajuria4678]

did you guys ask the republican how their party is going to actively work against this?

[@ArtiePenguin1]

I believe Walter said that the mostly likely thing to happen is that EV infrastructure deployment will fracture based on state/local government political leanings. So progress will continue in some areas and progress may halt in other areas. The private market will continue to do its thing, but that means underinvested/underserved areas will continue to be ignored.

[@ouch1011]

Republican controlled areas also tend to be the poorest and rural areas, so the investment/incentive to build the infrastructure will be stopped in the places that could use it the most

[@ArtiePenguin1]

@@ouch1011 That is likely, except for busier travel corridors that link major metro areas - those will likely continue to see private investment. Today the I-90 and I-94 corridors throughout Montana, Wyoming, North and South Dakota suffer from lack of EV infrastructure investment. Even Tesla has mostly 10+ year old sites in South Dakota.

[@newscoulomb3705]

The political aspect is a bit more nuanced than that, and I wouldn't hold any individual citizen, constituent, or voter responsible for the actions of their party or elected representatives. Being brutally honest, most registered Democrats would be horrified if they were held responsible for what the elected members of their party have done in office. Specifically with EVs, the Biden Administration has been disingenuous when it comes to the charging infrastructure, and they are attempting to take credit for the infrastructure that had already been built prior to the Infrastructure Act (which was bipartisan, by the way). I personally think we're past the point where we need government help to promote EVs, but we still need the government to not offer resistance or continue to heavily subsidize the fossil fuel industry.

[@plugandplayEV]

Ohio is leading the federally funded side with a Republican governor and during an election year. The elephant in the room for EV deniers (on either side of the aisle) is that massive private investment that dwarfs any federal funding so far was - and is - committed to everything from battery manufacturing to vehicle production, charging infrastructure, and battery recycling across North America. In the US, a lot of that investment is going to communities in the Southeast and Midwest that have been negatively impacted by combustion-related jobs disappearing. Not to say that it's not possible to work against the EV transition, as Florida's failure to spend funds is showing, but it's very much a cut off the nose to spite the face act at this point. Mostly election rhetoric, hopefully.