Cheater Analysis

[@MoluskToeCheese]

Hackers in fgs are shit, But its genuinely fascinating to watch JDCR analyze and problem-solve

[@kaputasri]

JDCR instead of raging hes amused and trying figure how to beat the cheat.He truly does enjoy all aspects of tekken

[@AirLancer]

Because at that point you're not even fighting a person, so why get mad about it?

[@newearth9027]

Besides the netcode

[@yozora-]

@@AirLancer exactly, no point in gettin mad

[@misteralien8313]

It doesn't really matter as these players can only win online matches.

[@glucky2119]

@@misteralien8313 why

[@boolcops]

BABE WAKE UP NEW JDCR VIDEO

[@hanyuluvr]

IM AWAKE BABE

[@MuhammadAli..]

You don't even havev a BABY

[@KingVictor7]

wake up bro. you don't have a babe.

[@gabegabe4747]

yeah because he are weirdo

[@slurmsmckenzie.]

Any of u know if this is on pc or ps4?

[@dexanwtripontidis3652]

Cheaters are always godlike content, the matrix reflexes when dodging jabs were fucking hilarious

[@ymb9shinzou743]

Yeah it does make me feel a little like we might even be encouraging this behavior. It's a bit like stream snipers who are just so thirsty for any kind of attention from Daddy streamer, if you cheat against a streamer you're almost guaranteed to get on their channel.

[@razborkaptrsk9428]

@@Padlock_Steve so why he is playing on TGO??He could just give free points to poor opponents

[@ymb9shinzou743]

@@Padlock_Steve Funny definition of a good time.

[@ymb9shinzou743]

@@Padlock_Steve You don't see a problem with cheating your way to TGO, ruining the games of countless others just to play a streamer who thinks you're a waste of skin? He's a spineless cheating little scumbag, there shouldn't be much more thought outside of that.

[@nahdontevenstart]

@@ymb9shinzou743 i downloaded so many scripts jjst because of the response to this video, i cannot wait to cheat relentlessly

[@KusunokiSG47]

Cheaters have two polarizing reason Either they feel inferior, so need cheat to feel good Or they feel superior, feeling like they so strong while using cheats

[@KusunokiSG47]

@@nahdontevenstart Eh I'm just making small talk though Either way if I met a cheater I usually just throw the game

[@KusunokiSG47]

@Thomas I like you already

[@realenew]

Maybe they just curious if they can make the perfect AI

[@NomSauce]

You forgot the third, since this is a video game, the guy could also be a developer/coder etc. Meaning they're deriving fun from this for a completely different reason than we would playing the game. I'm sure if you work or study in that industry, coding your own hacks, engineering and problem solving when someone breaks your A.I etc, is probably really fun. Rank also works as a system to grade how well the script is working and so on. This is especially telling by the replay, it's clear this is a script, hence the weird mashing and very parameter-like behaviour (if opponent in x range, use x move etc) rather than some kind of A.I. What I mean is this level of script can definitely be written by some independent person, it wouldn't require some deep knowledge of A.I., instead they can code on set parameters by combining their fighting game knowledge and coding/engineering knowledge. That being said I'm not sure if the place to do that is a game with a AAA fullprice lol, you'd rather do it on a cheaper of f2p game. But if Tekken is not very strict on bans it might end up just fine I suppose.

[@davipenha]

both is pathetic. why would you feel better for taking credit in a lie?

[@Kenlac92]

this just honestly showcased JDCRs knowledge of the game, stress testing the AI and seeing what it can overcome

[@Bounty2223]

JDCR labbing against the cheater and his tools is the funniest shit I've seen in a while.

[@KFGC]

예전에 철권핵 조사해보니 저 유형의 핵이 철권 출시 1일차에 뚫리고 지금까지 방치되어 왔고 지금은 거리와 확률 설정과 반격있으면 반격할지 여부까지 설정가능하게끔 되어있습니다. 가끔 보이는 이런애들은 그걸 구해서 사용하는거 같은데 단순히 승리시간이 짧은 유저만 밴하던 트레이너 사건때와 다르게 게임을 망치는 핵쟁이는 왜 안막는건지... 온라인 대회도 활발해진 철권7인데 이런얘들이 교묘하게 쓰면 핵인지 아닌지도 모르는 선수들이 핵인거 확인할려고 경기를 던져야하는 상황도 나올수 있는데 이걸 왜 방치하고 있는지 모르겠습니다...

[@ChestyMcGee]

it's weird/interesting how the hacker lets you test stuff out on them, and is clearly showing off different aspects of the hack (like doing the insane movement). it's like they're proud of the hacks lol

[@preyEU]

@Reality found the hacker

[@BanDal.]

Or maybe letting AI to learn 😂

[@SebuTK]

@Reality yeah, you guys can fuck off and “have fun” with it outside of online play.

[@AbbeyRuins]

serves as advertisement to their scripts

[@Geheimnis-c2e]

@Reality "testing their abilities" so they can test their cheating abilities but not test their abilities legitimately. garbage.

[@ewgf6667]

JDCR you are the best this video was educational and hilarious af at the same time. You can’t beat that kind of content

[@FahmiZFX]

This is where unorthodox characters like weapon users such as Yoshi and Negan and also 2D characters for chip damage shines in these kind of match ups. Yoshi also has plenty of unblockables to pull out.

[@eVuLeX]

doesnt matter, everything that hit does so because he lets you

[@gamesplay5400]

They can do whatever they want even unblockables won't help you kzbin.info/www/bejne/gaPcealrgqiVipY Look at @3:38

[@appleaccount7608]

I fought a jin player a couple of days ago. He wasn't using all this but I guess he had the electric mapped on a button somehow, a macro may be. We played around 6 matched and he executed like30-40 perfect input electrics, and he was some warrior ranked player. I cannot understand what enjoyment they get from all this.

[@filldrich]

Maybe he was a former tekken god rank , maybe

[@appleaccount7608]

@@filldrich or a tekken god prime but even evo players mess up at least a couple of times. he didn't.

[@slasher8091]

@@appleaccount7608 i encounter this on the daily started hating playing vs mishimas or bryan

[@MrDxfusion]

You can become very very consistent with electrics with enough work, I wouldn't worry about the electrics themselves but the electric punishes that are what you got to look out for, next time do a -14 move and see if you get a PEWGF/HF from your opponent, if they do that consistently then they're 99% cheating

[@pressmybutton]

@@MrDxfusion as a sweaty kazuya/heihachi/Bryan player who only labs, this is completely true. I used to find electric the pinnacle of Tekken up until I could do like 60 PEWFG's in a row. They didn't seem very exciting up to that point tho. But it did feel exciting to get TGP with a mirror match (kaz v kaz). SO MANY ELECTRICS AND 112's

[@razcipherff7272]

Honestly the whole cheating situation in Tekken is imo the worst factor when it comes to online. I dunno if someone else feels like it but every time I get bodied online there is always a thought at the back of my head that maybe that person is hacking. My weird way of fighting with salt was to always compliment my opponent but with the hacks being so elaborate it feels like that is harder and harder to do. Recognizing real skill in random games gets muddied by hacks.

[@nahdontevenstart]

my favorite part about people like this too is they just say “hacks” cause the real issue is that you lost lol scripts in tekken are so obvious you can literally tell this guy is cheating within 30 seconds

[@SleepyChloeFist]

Hacks aren't so common that you need to consider them any time you're losing. Anybody who's hacking is going to put themselves at the top ranks, anyway, so it's unlikely that whatever rank you're at has any kind of people cheating, outside of quitting matches.

[@josephrobinette8609]

@@nahdontevenstart but these stream snipers are trying to get noticed, some of these people are the ones selling the cheats so its free advertising. If a cheater really wanted to rise up the ranks it wouldnt be that hard to hide their cheats during a match by telling the scripts to only execute 50% of the time or less. Making the replay inputs look human might not be possible but players can only check that after the match is over

[@muhammadihsan4896]

idk man in my 400 hours of tekken i only got 1 cheater and that cheater cheats low parry and leroy parry thats it, ive take 2 rounds of him though lol. that cheater actually quite famous in south east asia server (filipino) and his steam comment is flooded by people.

[@slasher8091]

@@muhammadihsan4896 we must play on different servers cause i encounter this bs on the regular not to this extreme but still the auto parry is frequent And mishimas who cant even kbd that have perfect electrics and omens binded to a single key

[@MrDrumStikz]

I just fought a cheater the other day. The funniest part is that he kept mashing, so I won two games in a row before he got banned.

[@Bounty2223]

Not a single cheater has been punished let alone banned in Tekken 7.

[@Geheimnis-c2e]

Fought a 26-winstreak Feng a while ago. Suffice to say you just ki-charge them and then leave.

[@meatwax]

Thus reminds me alot of old arcade A.I. from mortal kombat. The bot just sitting and waiting to counter. You only won if you found an exploit

[@mayhem-zz1wb]

What's going on with people? Such disgusting behaviour, why would you ruin the game for all the players? And since Namco isn't punishing them, it is punishing all the rest of the good players

[@GohanDaGucci]

Jdcr I love you so much. You are very talented and very funny Tekken player. keep up the good work

[@Cla_Disney]

I love how the cheater didn't push buttons ('cause he would have been blocked/whiff punished) but waited instead for JDCR to do any move so the AI would duck/block/punish basically doing all the work.... Sad this kinda players even exist. Great vid from JDCR always finding the fun side even in these situations instead of getting upset.

[@Pdudi]

A true pro. Instead of raging or flaming he is even enjoying playing a cheater.

[@realice.]

Must be Violet System readying the best combot to delet the bloodline

[@brokentoaster4231]

EXCELLENT

[@Insanity-vv9nn]

Imagine paying for a game and not even playing it

[@SgtHeartmann.]

Just saw ur channel after hundreds of your matches. You’re a beast man,you’re scary as a player. My best respects from Italy

[@Nameless.Hermit]

I love how JDCR can still make exposing hackers hilarious. Viva JDCR!

[@MatteBlack42]

Soy Boy: Imma avoid this cheater GIGACHAD JDCR: *IMMA FIND OUT HOW TO BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF CHEATER NO MATTER THE RANK POINTS COST*

[@barulicksama3838]

If it's on PC of course there is cheaters like in every other PC game.

[@NvrCryToaster]

* oksavingsbank* : “your nothing but a cheap knock off” * this guy* : “ no no, I’m the upgrade.”

[@woosukchoi2897]

이렇게까지 해서 상대를 이기는게 대체 무슨 의미가 있는가. 보는것 만으로도 역겹네.

[@jonisasaki]

JDCR doing live TAS Tekken 7 gameplay

[@PUNCHEDPUNCHEDPUNCHED]

I am like 90% sure that's an AI, no human. If there is a person there though JDCR should've just kept jabbing so they can't play the game😂

[@CrystalMang0]

It's not an ai

[@jonch009]

0:20 is like a PhiDX backdash on steroids lol

[@madness231]

오세뱅의 뒤를 잇는 후계자인지...아님 오세뱅 본인인지.......ㅋㅋ

[@lil_sway6967]

And I was there thinking cheaters don't exist in video games anymore idk why people even cheat where is the fun in it I'd rather win honestly then get a free win

[@kamikaze4172]

Reminds me of a protagonist trying to break an opponent's defense

[@BanDal.]

게임 오래 하지도 않고 만난 지 얼마 안돼서 핵인거 알아채는거 짱신기하다

[@으허어하]

느낌이 쌔함 ㅋㅋ

[@SEcond.IMpact]

오메가 레벨에서 25연승할 인물이 거의 없죠. 무릎도 매번 25연승은 못할 텐데... 아무튼 설령 그게 가능한 플레이어가 있다하더라도 그 정도 고수라면 이미 천상계 유저들끼리는 대부분 다 알고 있죠. 근데 처음 보는 아이디거나 모르는 사람인데 오메가에서 25연승이다?? 그것만 봐도 일단 뭔가 이상한 낌새가 남

[@IAmEnormous]

I wonder how cheats would react to Bryan's taunt? Seems like the perfect way to open them up.

[@rhyanvalk7897]

I played Fariborz with yoshi and did the quick unblockbke and he would df2 the instant i tried i checked multible times and it was definitly alsp macro

[@IAmEnormous]

@@rhyanvalk7897 Not the same, taunt is cancelable frame 1 so you could use it to force the AI to react or get hit by an unblockable, and once you know you can cancel with a block, sidestep, or move of your own.

[@rhyanvalk7897]

@@IAmEnormous ye didnt think of the fact u can instantly taunt cancel

[@slasher8091]

Its already quite hard to catch a person with taunt but with type of backdash it will be near impossible without wall

[@IAmEnormous]

@@slasher8091 It's less about "catching" them and more messing with their cheats. Every time you taunt they hopkick? Input taunt into sidestep, or block, or jab. They jab when you taunt? Taunt into duck and punish. There's always an answer. And, of course, you can always just dash them to the wall since you know cheaters are terrible and will let you get away with that. They start retaliating? You start f3ing on their timing.

[@TehOak]

Fascinating watching JDCR dismantle another AI.

[@Da-peu-nen]

상단 회피 하단 방어 중단 반격 잡기 자동풀기 헛치는거 자동 공격 ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ 저정도면 그냥 게임켜놓고 가만히있어도 이기겠네 ㅋㅋㅋ

[@6thdim]

Hans Neumann playing tekken be like

[@take_04]

펭이길래 무릎데스인 줄 알고 뛰어온

[@zasterheffor]

Genuinely interested in how the AI interprets player inputs alongside its commands to co-pilot the fight. Watching this, if anything, is an incredible display not only of the AI's sophistication, but how exploitable frames are for cheaters. Instead of banning cheaters, perhaps Tekken needs to add near infinite variability in frame duration, making backdashes, crouches, sidesteps, parries, etc. to make moves unique? Every match could have its own seed generated that determines the value of this variability, basically. From there, AI wouldn't be able to rely on a consistent output even with commands given. What do you guys think?

[@makuogoku2102]

It'd be a disaster for pros, as they study each move's frames. meanwhile hackers are more flexible than you can think, I believe if they want then the program can even track the game's data when entering a randomly generated match, from then straight up bully the opponents. the best way is still add a proper bot tracking/anti cheating system to make the game better. your idea can be applied differently for diversed gameplay, not by making values randomly but by adding weather affected maps into the game, changing frames value and suchs, even then it could still be a bad idea considering how tekken 4 added map elevation then become one of the most broken tekken game.

[@Abhiously]

sounds doomed, tekken is known for a players reliance on frame data knowledge more than other FGCs. Not very many other FGs have commentators casually citing frame data for moves, its part of Tekkens identity

[@zasterheffor]

@@makuogoku2102 The weather component sounds like a good idea. If it's procedural and unpredictable that adds another layer of complexity and realism that AI won't be able to predict. A snowy landscape means the potential to slide further back or forward during certain combos? A high altitude landscape could make frames *somewhat* slower, etc., but nonetheless constant. If players have more mechanics to keep in mind when playing - not just map transitions: wall breaks, floor breaks - that would be an innovation for Tekken.

[@zasterheffor]

@@Abhiously As a side note, seed generation can definitely be handled server side rather than client side in tandem with Tekken's matchmaking system; an opponent and player matchup could be issued, along with a seed token that randomizes frame values, rather than having the client generate the seed for the AI to analyze. It wouldn't really be possible to train an AI on a randomized seed without access to every single licensed account in the first place - an inferred key - , which is why they're great for online account security. The AI will be able to read the seed, sure, but it won't be able understand the logic of the seed. I can see how it would devastate pro players, but frames would still maintain their importance and the overall identity of Tekken wouldn't really change. Maybe even a DR (diminishing returns) mechanic on spamming the same combo repeatedly could spice up gameplay, forcing players to incorporate different combos by slowing frames, rather than seed based randomization of all frames.

[@_winn0w]

Randomizing frame data for every match just to circumvent bots sounds like a terrible idea. You'd make the game unplayable since you can't really practice anything. Combos would have different delays each time, options from situations would differ, and maybe even punishes would change. Your proposed method wouldn't even work for circumventing bots since these scripts read the in-game process memory. They would just be able to read the seed value, calculate the frame data themselves, and function as normal. Just invest in good anti-cheat.

[@winnerlee7443]

부모님이 안 계신다는 걸 저렇게 어렵게 증명하는 방법도 있구나

[@onelefthanded6928]

I just learned KBD a few days ago and there's already a new backdash called 'MJ'

[@jonteguy]

..but why though? The most fun part about Tekken is to see how you improve.

[@zaprodex]

Genuinely wanna sit down with these people sometimes and just grill them for a bit. It has never made sense to me, especially in fighting games when it's like, half the game to get better and improve. I guess people really care about their (save-scummed) tekken rank LMFAO.

[@nahdontevenstart]

because it gets someone salty enough to a make a video about it, it gets another person salty enough to comment about it, and it takes very literally no effort. If you think these people actually put their emotion and thought into doing this you’re wrong lol it takes about 5 minutes to do this and ruin SO many peoples days. The fact that you’re even contemplating why they would do this shows that the world is truly sharks and fish lol

[@nahdontevenstart]

@@zaprodex a salty ass comment like this is literally all it would take to make me download a script like this it has absolutely nothing to do with winning at a game that came out 7 years ago it has way more to do with making people like you upset lmfao and it works so easily so well with minimal effort every lol

[@Sangsangwoo]

@@nahdontevenstart I see. You're one of them doing this. LOL you're putting so much effort to stand up for them haha

[@nahdontevenstart]

@@Sangsangwoo LMAO no but in absolutely going to now because there’s an endless pool of babies to harvest salt from apparently

[@RunningShovel]

We've circled all the way back around in online to the opponent basically reading your inputs and doing the optimal response. Reminds me of Tekken 1!

[@anyshittynickname]

The new genre, the autobattle fighting game. You turn on the cheat and watch as the ai gains your ranks. Future of gaming

[@Frieza96]

Don’t mess with the Korean hackers

[@esourteric412]

of course its @steam

[@noobmixups9102]

Tekken god prime and can't break throw, seems legit

[@Nahan_Boker94]

that 1-2 jab definitely hacker thing lol.

[@makuogoku2102]

If only tekken 7 added these bots(reduced version) in offline mode , I wouldn't need to go online to find people rejecting my wifi connection.

[@wirataadidharma]

Still bad for improving in Tekken

[@alberobluilblu]

Or you can buy a good one

[@makuogoku2102]

@@wirataadidharma Why is it bad tho ? bots in tekken 5 were so much fun to fight with, and in tekken 7 we barely have a offline mode.

[@makuogoku2102]

@@alberobluilblu I would if I could, I'm literally using the wifi in my college dormitory, I'm not financial independent so It's unavoidable for me. I always avoid ranked because I'm scared of ruining people ranks with lag. Only hit the player quickmatch when I feel like the wifi's smooth enough. :(

[@junkbig4867]

기술막지르다가 지니까 무조건 이기는 방식인 아무것도 안하고 핵으로만 이기기 시전하네요...

[@Rncko]

I was thinking maybe JDCR can bait out some outstanding loophole and beat the crap out of it. But dang, the Bot Program really had it all covered and instead can only do labbing.

[@죽는날까지하늘을우러]

핵쟁이 기술분석은 성공했으나 핵쟁이 마인드 분석은 실패한...

[@KacomGaming]

a lot of NA online players do this, and try not to be so blatant

[@abdullahoran1067]

Bro the fast dashes got me dead 🫡

[@j1nsullivan576]

So my thoughts about cheaters on tekken 7 not all wrong. Cus few days ago I play against player that use Bryan, I know that some of attack has a plus frame but that time all of his attack including the attack that are minus on block or Miss, doesn't have any minus like he keep attacking and attacking I try to counter punish but doesn't work. Idk if it's true but this is how I feel, and when I attacking he did the same like the Cheater did on the video

[@azazel7505]

Even I'm annoyed here If JDCR played Asuka he would have destroyed him

[@RAWKITHED]

Why Asuka?

[@boolcops]

@@RAWKITHED she’s braindead

[@Shibu_PL]

@@RAWKITHED Parries and evasion.

[@chrisap7053]

@@Shibu_PL feng also has that

[@RGV_FALCO]

@@Shibu_PL I'm sure the bot has an auto-chicken command for parries

[@wumboTK]

watching jdcr live lab the cheater matchup is amazing

[@Bounty2223]

Michael Murray did everything he can (which is absolutely nothing) to stop and properly punish cheaters.

[@BlackHermit]

I will never cheat in Tekken.

[@eggggg00]

Maybe weapons would work against it?

[@Ghakimx]

Noctis can carry weapon moves.

[@SleepyChloeFist]

Cheating is so despicable, but also, fucking boring.

[@iamauriyone3035]

had great laughs! best commentary

[@storkshot]

JDCR's stick movement's so quick he can make it seem like he also uses movement macros O_O

[@coooolibri]

at this point this is not even a human playing anymore. not saying that metaphorically :D this doesnt look like a person even sitting behind that character tbh. could be literally a self learning AI.

[@jyjpsmtc2943]

철권 10년넘게하면서 아케이드를몇만판햇는데 피시로나오고나서 저런애들 엄청많아진게팩트 일반유저에섞여잇는것도팩트

[@bluesss149nsss4]

Tekken 8 need to fix these problems, hopefully tekken 8 can detect cheater and can instantly banned them from playing online :)

[@catthestupid2686]

알파고를 이겨라

[@Joshua_Cartus]

I really don't know what's the point of cheating in a fighting game. In Tekken, winning doesn't matter. As long as u learn something from losses, it's better than winning. U have the chance to play against a top tier player, learning what they do and so on. But instead, u embarass yourself by being a bonafide cheater in front of a top tier player. I find it really sad because ur not really gaining anything from cheating. All those points or rank are all worthless when u go to a competition.

[@aljunaidbaunto3808]

He just have a good gaming chair

[@makhdoom65]

Jdcr squad for life

[@어나더레블-m8o]

철권 알파고 나와도 이길수 있을것 같다.

[@supreammms]

진짜 불쌍한 인생이다 이렇게라도 핵 쓰면서 우월감이라도 맛보나?

[@doxxu]

Someone email this to Harada, it will be appreciated.

[@newearth9027]

Saves stored locally kek

[@donzrellik8209]

try grab 1+2 for cheaters they cant break that or any other grab

[@angelo687]

나는 또 소리 지르다 잡혔다.

[@SebuTK]

It’s unfortunate that the solution here is to simply play on console, should be on the devs do establish literally ANY anticheat

[@Nobodysurvivesevenonebit]

Must be okbank brother

[@dust5717]

2:50 HAHAHA

[@alpha.n9481]

JDCR is the unpaid tester for these hacker making the hack better xD

[@Kinglizard220]

I'm glad I don't have this huge of a problem of cheaters on xbox servers >_>

[@nahrubish]

How about bot vs bot tournament?

[@theelusivememe1772]

In the end, the AI won. Humanity is doomed.

[@wh0isdis580]

I have run into a bunch of sus feng's( input wise) that frame perfect punish me with only shoulder

[@zatoby6705]

Makes me glad locals still exist. A lot less cheating there but you can't play all the time... :(

[@Uooooooooooooh]

If there's a human sitting behind it and using the AI to duck/parry your moves automatically couldn't you just wait and defend while waiting for them to make mistakes? They're probably ass at the game anyway

[@GuiDaFunkyMan]

lmYourFather beat that scrub also.

[@lilkampf4492]

AYO!? 3:00

[@qq-st9xo]

Bye

[@crimsondemon734]

There isn't really a rank I haven't seen players play like this Noctis. Even in green ranks. Really not entertaining at all. Me who can't really say for sure if I am being handicapped like this feels discouraging to keep playing the game.

[@vassilisdimeris6881]

What is this character he's playing though? Sorry, haven't played Tekken since Tekken 4. You can create your own character and play online now? Soul Calibur style?

[@void5516]

Noctis, from FFXV collab. Yea dont be suprised, Tekken 7 had so much collabs the pool is diluted with non-tekken characters.

[@dgoar2987]

녹티스 이 ㅅㄲ 만나고 진짜 벽을 느꼈는데 핵이었네 ㅡㅡ

[@reconwar]

2:19 holy fuck i nearly died laughing

[@mzilla911]

Crazy hack I'm guessing this is only on PC versions

[@earleebyrd]

lmyourfather fought this guy too lmaoo

[@snakedge]

This is getting a little silly are they actually going to do anything about this???

[@ladrellhart2063]

I'll never play this on PC.

[@imyourpogchamp6980]

Man... At this point why would u even bother playing? Literally the AI is doing everything.

[@colonelinfernal5004]

Anyone ever played against masterofmotion from the Americas? Suspected cheater, total loser and typically has around 100-200+ wins. They DC if they're about to lose.

[@theeyetriangle]

Nah why is this so fucking hilarious to watch

[@blurryface5744]

How do even people have fun with this shit if they arent doing it themselves. I feel great when I do the correct punish or able to low parry upon guessing but if an AI does it for you wheres the fun in that?