Ross's Game Dungeon: Echo

Ross is his own worst enemy in Echo.
You can buy Echo here if you're interested:
af.gog.com/game/echo?as=16759...
accursedfarms.com

[@ShroudedHand]

It wouldnt be a Ross video if he didnt go off on some tangent about some deep philosophical shit or anti-aliasing

[@ballinbalgruuf8198]

It wouldnt be youtube if I would not upvote a comment made by a random verified account

[@eury-bosch]

hellow shrouded hand, everybody here (love your videos)

[@drexcarratala5290]

it seems like youtubers of all paths converge at the game dungeon

[@ImNotFine44]

Philosophy and anti-aliasing; They are one and the same.

[@adalagarzi5495]

@@ballinbalgruuf8198 Shrouded Hand is a youtuber that uploads videos of various human atrocities as well as supernatural stuff. In short, a horror channel, but be prepared to feel depressed or motivated to become the gavel of justice after almost every video.

[@DerptekofGoochland]

"I would rather have blockier graphics but a clean image." They hated video game Jesus because he spoke the truth

[@janwijnants3995]

video game jesus is a great name

[@unknownuser3926]

That's why I'm so disappointed with the direction games are going, shooting for better and better graphics but never optimizing or improving anything else. Imagine what game systems or AI would be like if the industry was competing over those. Games have become increasingly stagnant over time.

[@Nevermore2790]

@@unknownuser3926 At the same time, I also hate people forcing developers to have a stylized artstyle that's opposite to their vision. I can stand ANY type of graphics. Retro, stylized, gritty, realistic, cartoony, anything to be honest for as long as it's their vision and not because they were forced because this is trending or this is what the audience or the fans want. Yeah, they definitely need to optimize their games and improve things that need to be improved on their Game Engine. I may expect some games that have those problems to run well in like a decade unless it's Engine related, but that's just me. However, these problems are getting too complicated that the audience and gamers do not nor fully understand or don't really like to understand.

[@_..--]

@@Nevermore2790 I have no idea why, but this reminded me that I really need to play Disco Elysium, after I stop playing the Yakuza games lol.

[@_..--]

Oh and only now am I learning about the Final Cut controversy, weird games can get lost media just by patches if the dev thinks it's for the best.

[@joseaca1010]

Here are your messages: - you have 30 minutes to move your cultists - you have 10 minutes - your cultists have been abducted - your cultists have been compressed into a cube - you have 30 minutes to move your cube

[@TheStoodUpKid]

Homer: Y'ello, Ross's Game Dungeon Burns: Is this about my cube?

[@jamesduncan6729]

😆😆

[@hueghh3775]

what happens to the cube? does it get double-cubed?

[@defectivegorilla]

@@hueghh3775 The cube gets squared.

[@Yusuke_Denton]

There's a somewhat rare "feature" in the game I noticed from this video. In most games when you are surrounded by enemies, only one can actually directly attack or grab you at a time. The animation cycle is only designed for one-on-one action, so all other enemies just stand back and chill until you break out of it. Same for games with "glory kills". In Echo you can get grabbed by a mob of clones all at once and they all jump into the animation. Not a big deal, and this animation probably just means game over, but a nice little touch none the less.

[@doomyboi]

Yeah it looks like if you get latched onto by three clones the "struggle" QTE disappears completely

[@LonelySpaceDetective]

Fun fact: The first game I'm aware of that did this "only one enemy in a group attacks you at a time" trick is Ocarina of Time. IIRC, z-targeting certain enemies like Stalfos will cause the others to back off until you either kill that enemy or lock onto another/remove the lock-on. There's two different stories to the inspiration of the mechanic (according to The Cutting Room Floor), but it seems that either way a samurai play was involved. It was done to help the camera be more manageable; especially in combat, rather than for any sort of animation-related reason.

[@TheAlison1456]

Multiple enemies don't attack you at once because it's not fun and you have no agency over it, not because it's convenient for targeting or animation. FPS games often do this.

[@Yusuke_Denton]

@@TheAlison1456 I think it's more a combination of hard to implement, and not wanting to bother because it wouldn't be as fun, but why wouldn't you have agency over it?

[@DrakeKnight99]

Saying it like that reminds me of Neo getting jumped by the clones in Reloaded

[@Derpageddon]

This game's story is an english teacher's dream. The enemy is yourself, the dialogue is verbose yet vague, and the main characters overanalyze an inanimate object!

[@Rendo86]

yeah, then you have write an essay and get everyone gets an F.

[@adenowirus]

Reminds me of that time I've read Stepan Chapman's The Troika.

[@DetectiveOlivaw]

Hell yeah, shit’s dope

[@icelandia4]

Upon careful examination of this post I have reached the conclusion that I channel strong English professor vibes. Coincidentally, I found Echo to be a thoroughly enjoyable game and its story was, whilst not superb, adequate.

[@macdeus2601]

Hey, before I went to rehab, I might have found this a really evocative metaphor for my life. You know, you manage to solve some of your problems, but then a black-out happens, and suddenly you have a bunch more problems again.

[@aparzoo]

And when the world needed him most... he sorta stumbled back into focus

[@EggBastion]

that's our boy!

[@Ribbons0121R121]

like... he's a little disoriented but he got the spirit

[@TheHippyProductions]

The mould outbreak at his old apartment has influenced his mind

[@zintosion]

He always does.

[@unknownuser3926]

Having a "put away the gun so your doppelgangers do the same" could have been an earthshattering Bioshock-level twist if the game was focused on violence as a third person shooter with your doubles shooting back and constantly learning. Imagine having quicktime events where it only *looks* like you need to tap X to fight back, and instead you're supposed to do nothing.

[@Sandro234]

if you don't mash x the doppelganger just gives you a warm hug and slap on the ass - then you're on your way

[@Crowley9]

So... what Prince of Persia did back in 1989?

[@cupriferouscatalyst3708]

@@Crowley9 and arguably Mother 1 the same year

[@judyhopps9380]

@@Crowley9 the mirror boss was an incredible idea

[@Trynt33]

@@Crowley9 For a new generation!

[@EJsGameplay]

"I played a flash game where you tried to kill yourself and Faint by Linkin Park was the bgm" Don't worry Ross, I can 100% believe that was a thing.

[@IC-xk4gi]

That sounds 100% newgrounds pre 2009

[@MrZega000]

I have hazy memories of playing that

[@phoebeaurum7113]

I believe the game he's thinking of is Karoshi which in classic Newgrounds fashion is a game around a salaryman committing violent suicide repeatedly. Having said that though I also remember the game providing a suicide hotline.

[@FizzieWebb]

@@phoebeaurum7113 Karoshi: Suicide Salaryman, I remember playing that, hehe.

[@n_eyes7256]

I think there's a Doom .wad like that.

[@sinisterwombat3128]

Ah yes. That dolphin game.

[@thecoolcario9048]

No that game has 2 "C"s

[@nicefloweytheoverseer7632]

Still pronounced Ecco.

[@SirFeatureCreature]

Dontrel the Dolphin

[@Scanlaid]

@@thecoolcario9048 the Atlantic and Specific?

[@bennyboiii1196]

was just listening to eccojams vol 1 by opn

[@exoblivione6086]

This feels like a game made by a 3D modeller rather than an actual level designer.

[@tukkek]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if every single one of those assets is purchased from the Unity Engine store or similar. They fit pretty well so they'd have to be part of a pack though. Like there's what, a dozen or couple dozen environmental assets shown throughout the palace sections in the video? Meanwhile Unreal Engine 5 is coming out with hundreds of high-quality free assets bundled with it.

[@sacb0y]

This is peak "small team AAA visuals" game design. It just needed a better designer.

[@dasme8210]

It's a real shame the game turned out like this, because the palace is genuinely an interesting place I'd like to explore.

[@fnhatic6694]

@@tukkek The fact that it's this palace with no actual reason suggests strongly that this is an asset flip. Disappointing.

[@tukkek]

@@fnhatic6694 If you think this game with uniquely original gameplay is an asset-flip, you don't understand what the term means. Not to mention multiple voice actors...

[@KRIMZONMEKANISM]

Here's a cool idea that was a completely missed opportunity: "If you *shot* an automaton, then shouldn't your Echoes ALSO shoot it?" Hell, imagine this, if you decided to evade the automatons, vs killing them, you could trigger an actually interesting development like so: -A: if you evade the automatons you have no issue with the Echoes, up until the moment the Automaton has ran out of Echoes to kill. -B: if you shoot the automatons, then the Echoes also learn to do this. This makes the palace halls a chaotic and frantic battlefield as the palace attemps to compensate for the Echoes' increased danger with EVEN MORE automatons. Heck, in the B scenario, maybe the Echoes learn to also prioritize the Automatons, rather than you in their shit list, and they will start firing at you when they run out of automatons?

[@DanielFlores5555]

This is a really cool idea. Unfortunately, by the end of the game I felt like the developers ran out of steam, so they didn't add a lot of new things. The automatons were a bit of a letdown, to be honest. I wish they could make a sequel and expand upon the concept, but it looks like they didn't sell enough copies, so the studio closed down...

[@uselessDM]

I think there is a lot of potentials with the Echoes. I remember in the game Project Snowblind there was ammunition that turned an enemy into an alley if you shot them with it, something like that could work here, getting the Echoes to work with you or at least fight each other as well.

[@czarkowskipawelyt]

Yeah, I was expecting exactly that while playing this game, unfortunately the "automatons" (or Golems, as I labelled them) always win against Echoes. The coolest thing you can do by that stage is pushing an Echo to the floor, so that an Automaton chasing you kills the Echo instead.

[@Triffgits]

they do lol

[@roadent217]

@@uselessDM "I remember in the game Project Snowblind there was ammunition that turned an enemy into an alley if you shot them with it" Like... A back alley? Or a bowling alley?

[@coachrenaldo]

A missed opportunity: “Alright, awards time! First award...” *BLACKOUT*

[@MrSHURIKENCHO]

He stopped the awards for some fucking reason...

[@benbot0733]

I think he said before that he's only giving awards to games he thinks really deserve them

[@MrSHURIKENCHO]

@@benbot0733 No, he started giving awards 2-3 episodes into this and has been doing it for every single game up until 2 episodes ago. I actually remember even the first episodes had "awards" but he was like "I give this game a rating of 3 reeses peanut butter cups" or something

[@Mathadar]

@@MrSHURIKENCHO Both of you are right. He is now retiring the awards unless the game really deserves it.

[@Walczyk]

@@MrSHURIKENCHO better unsubscribe then

[@Arson_Hole]

This is the video game equivalent of "Stop hitting yourself."

[@EugenijusKrenis]

Echo feels like a bunch of Artstation concept artists decided to make a game all by themselves.

[@1r0zz]

It seems just one who really love fractals?

[@AugustusBohn0]

they watched a bunch of Mandelbulb zoom videos, a summary of that Alien prequel nobody liked, Oneyplays's Black Baby let's play, and made this game.

[@1r0zz]

@@AugustusBohn0 Let's not be minimal on the art style, the palace design with it's fractals inspired looks it's interesting, even if modular and slightly overused (in repetition) and misused (in the repetitions). The story is a mess, but the location visuals are good

[@TheFaqvideos]

@@AugustusBohn0 "Oneyplay's black baby let's play" I'm fucking done LMAO

[@asgoritolinasgoritolino7708]

@@1r0zz Yes, but guess what? This is a videogame, if I wanted to see pretty architecture i would be at the museum, not playing a game. Videogames is not a platform where you put all your art, it's an art medium by itself, and one which these artists clearly didn't understand. Having great art doesn't save bad games, because games are much more than just art packed toghether.

[@sirpatrick549]

"I'd rather have blockier graphics but a clean image" Thank you Ross, thank you. This is a message I hope will be taken by developers.

[@Azf12]

Deep Rock Galactic is the only game I know of with recent games. It really seems like a lost principle.

[@bigdaddydons6241]

I've been on a STALKER kick and I feel like all of those games are the antithesis of what you said

[@PoliPantev]

​@@bigdaddydons6241stalker looks pretty good even today, what are you on about

[@bigdaddydons6241]

@@PoliPantev they're great looking games but to me at least that from the lighting the graphics are muddy as hell on vanilla

[@PoliPantev]

@@bigdaddydons6241 thats what eastern europe looks like mate :D

[@TheMovieCave]

The point of the venus fly trap eye in aeon flux was that her body was cybernetic, literally even her eyelashes could be used as a weapon.

[@YABBAHEY1]

Plus it was cool & edgy in the 80's "urban punk". Comic- good, Anime- corny & prosaic

[@goldycoia6944]

@@YABBAHEY1 true

[@tukkek]

It also sells that "look, we have impressive trippy hand-drawn animations for you" pitch pretty well! I'm not a huge fan of the style but it was still a major appeal of AE.

[@horacegentleman3296]

Don't forget the Freudian angles.

[@sorrenblitz805]

The show never ever stated that she was a cyborg. The movie did I think but not the show, she was just some weird bio modified super spy. Not to mention Trevor Cloned her, and the original died, did he clone the cyborg parts too?

[@waterguyroks]

I find these massive, seemingly infinite man-made constructions to be incredibly engaging. I would love an exploration-heavy game a la Subnautica set in some mammoth, highly detailed castle or even a modern skyscraper overrun by enemies

[@alexeyeliseev6322]

Yeah, imagine being inside a colossal structure that builds itself further as you explore it

[@GlowingOrangeOoze]

I don't know much about it but I think Control is set in a space-defyingly huge corporate building full of dark secrets.

[@triplehelix3207]

Look up a game Yedoma Globula, it has something like that but the environments are generated by fractals

[@mendelovitch]

It reminds me of "BLAME!", a comics of almost no story and lots of megastructures.

[@fattiger6957]

@@GlowingOrangeOoze It is, but since the areas are fairly small, you don't really get an immense of scale from the world in Control. It just feels like you're going through a strangely designed, large building.

[@Draqer]

I feel like the blackout leading to enemy respawns thing could make for a decent stressfull horror *section* in a game. Not a entire game.

[@termitreter6545]

Depends imo. Having your screen go black too much can be immersion breaking... not having anything to focus your eyes on can remind you that youre looking at a screen. Also, its a really bad idea to have those bright rooms and then go black. That contrast is eye strain inducing.

[@Draqer]

@@termitreter6545 Oh it would definitly need some work. But i think the basic idea has some potential.

[@Zelix678]

Or at least have some warning it is going to happen. Like her going; "No... not again." As lights start to slowly dim. Or give limited amount of items to stave it off.

[@fnd2583]

Honestly the blackouts where nice when you are being hunted by a mob, it just means you can escape quite easy. It's not as bad as Ross tries to be.

[@nopushbutton]

@@termitreter6545 The real horror is seeing your own greasy face reflected in the black screen

[@trucy1337]

"They jog slightly faster than you" The game designers deserve the death sentence, preferably one from That Onion video

[@LonelySpaceDetective]

Honestly, I think that would be fine, *if the levels were actually designed for stealth.*

[@TheEmeraldSword04]

Onion News? I think I know what you mean, is it the one with soothing music that would rip you head off?

[@PackRatTheArtist]

I think it's logical as En was a human being with exhaustion. The artificially created creatures, while biological, still had regeneration capabilities and a lack of self preservation. It makes sense En's own speed would fluctuate as she became winded, but the doppelgangers would not. Mechanically, it is a stealth game, so if you could outrun them, you'd just breeze through the game.

[@calebb7012]

I mean, the game dev that made this game went bankrupt.

[@Dr.Oofers]

@@calebb7012 lol

[@ThatCreepyReading]

Whenever I feel sad or wanna go to bed I put on Ross's Game Dungeon. The tangents and reviews and common sense approach to analysis really just makes me feel a little less insane. Thanks dude your an hero!

[@zydian_]

I fall asleep while a ross s game dungeon is running

[@bcatgamering]

(an hero actually means someone who committed or is going to commit suicide)

[@TillTheLightTakesUs]

^What he said.

[@Juhziz]

00:00 Intro. 00:53 Main menu. 01:22 Start of the game. 04:22 Landing and Icy Gieger Tech part. 06:27 "why don't we shoot it" part and rant about UE4 stability. 07:17 The Palace love moment. 11:32 Flickering lights and blackout rant #1 12:24 Copies mechanics and main gameplay loop explained. 20:35 Blackout rant #2 23:22 Lore reveal #1 (obvious Ross's cults segway), also plot delivery rant. 27:45 Music in the game. 29:10 Soul cube love moment, also soul cubes rating part. 31:23 Losing the cube, plot twist #1 reveal. 33:21 Gold level love moment, also antialiasing rant. 36:10 Plot twist #2 reveal and story rant. 38:15 Game ending. 39:13 Ross's story rant #2 40:07 Conclusion. Possible solutions for fixing the game. 42:30 Credits.

[@InternetUsername]

_"Thanks dude your an hero!"_ How dare you even put that thought in my head >:^(

[@lysander789]

After six months of silence, Ross has gifted us with another Game Dungeon. Things will finally make sense.

[@shogun2215]

More later.

[@flaturiah]

Breaking off for a moment...

[@TheMartinChronicles]

Wow, I didn't realize it had been that long.

[@cranialtoxicity4434]

I thought I was finally losing it when I heard ross echoing in my headphones Fell asleep listening to Freeman's Mind one too many times perhaps

[@Truffle_D_Toad]

You're not hearing multiple Rosses in your head at the same time, Cranial. You're just being paranoid.

[@AmalekIsComing]

man this crackhead is creeping me out

[@kkeanie]

Man, I cannot stop litening to Freeman's Mind before I go to sleep. Now I think I am paranoid!

[@AmalekIsComing]

@@kkeanie do you happen to use reddit?

[@kkeanie]

@@AmalekIsComing never used it.

[@edgelordleon5859]

It never clearly explains to you the ACTUAL way the repeat mechanic works. It records your actions when it's lit, then goes black, and now the DG's will adopt those actions. BUT, they forget those same actions during the next cycle. However, a cycle will only occur once enough actions have been taken. So the ideal strategy is legit, do your best to stealth while lit, only taking rash actions when you absolutely have to, black out, go guns blazing and try to get as much done. Repeat. But I legit had to Google/Wiki it back when I played because I too had NO idea and was just getting increasingly frustrated.

[@williammanning7207]

That was all very clearly explained by the time you leave the introductory levels. There is a part where En notices the echoes can't walk through water, then you walk through water, then next cycle they can walk through water. In the next level, they can't walk through water again, and En literally says something like "they also *unlearn* things that I don't do" to London.

[@valletas]

@@williammanning7207 you missed the point of his comment He wanst talking that the game doesnt explain the learn vs unlearn mechanics What he was pointing out is how the blackouts are not in a timer but are tied to the actions you take wich the game doesnt explain

[@johnran6015]

The "it's deep because its vague" curse has stricken movies the past 10 years as well.

[@TheMaabusAdmiral]

Ah, a new Game Dungeon. Now things are starting to make sense. More later. Happy Memorial Day.

[@KingLich451]

Welcome back!

[@kaerfnatas2042]

The joke never gets old.

[@TheTeddyGuy28]

Glad to have you back, Admiral!

[@manifoldexultant7331]

o7

[@alexeyeliseev6322]

How things are going for you, admiral?

[@Cimlite]

Dev: _Creating character models is so a nightmare... I don't know what to do. I got it in me to do one, but that's it._ Writer: _Don't worry about it, I got you._

[@LonelySpaceDetective]

To be fair, working around personal, technical and/or budget limitations has created a lot of iconic works. ...Even if Echo probably won't be one of them.

[@Rendo86]

@Weapons Of Mass Distraction gary? gary? GRAY!

[@maskettaman1488]

And the 1 character model he made is ugly as sin

[@UsmevavyPanacek]

@@maskettaman1488 Right? The face and hair reminded me of models from Fallout 3 quite a lot.

[@TheGaluMoD]

The Evil Within actually lets you skip walking segments like you would cutscenes. It's the only game I know that does this and I think it's awesome if you're doing multiple playthroughs.

[@smergthedargon8974]

TEW is a a flawed but enjoyable game - that's definitely a positive in its favor.

[@AndGoatz04]

"I still don't know what London is..." -Ross, out of context

[@comicsamsthegreat]

It feels like they made a beautiful walking sim and then decided to add the mechanics later

[@z-beeblebrox]

The second the dopplegangers stood up I lost all interest in wanting to play it, but it *is* very pretty. It's almost like they wanted to make a big environment puzzle game, in the vein of The Talos Principle, but then realized they didn't know how to do puzzles so they just dropped in duplicates of the player character and messed around with pathfinding code.

[@VulpesHilarianus]

This seemed like a portfolio project for an environment modeller and a shader coder. 'Cause it doesn't seem like the rest of the team did much.

[@planescaped]

@@VulpesHilarianus It really does have that "demo/example" quality.

[@killertrip10]

I remember that flash game you were talking about. With the song and everything. Just wanted to confirm you're not crazy

[@alexhussinger3550]

I feel like this game would have been much better had they added 1 simple feature--places where you can stash the cube safely, thus making the enemies not attack you. Make it so you can only accomplish the objectives with the cube in hand, but you're giving the player the option to map out the level first. It helps turn it into much more of a tactics and puzzle game (I'll go through this door and jump this gap, but walk around the water so that once the blackout hits I can cross the water to escape), and also helps out the pacing issues by giving the player some breathing room in places. If you standardize enemy locations between cycles and give the player some ability to trigger when the blackouts happen (levers to interact with mid-level maybe?) and then you have an interesting and really novel puzzle game that would be worth checking out.

[@TheRenofox]

I thought they'd be doing the exact same thing. Also, making the frequency of the blackouts RANDOM was just abysmally stupid idea, turning any opportunity to use their core mechanic in a sensible way into tossing dice and hoping for the best.

[@bukvaQ]

@@TheRenofox nah, the blackouts arent random, its much worse - the blackout comes faster if you kill echoes or make recordeable moves, further punishing the player for doing literally anything

[@Zodroo_Tint]

@@bukvaQ Sometimes people have a really stupid idea what sounds good on paper. They just don't think it further and try to figure it out how it would work in a computer game.

[@michimatsch5862]

@@bukvaQ That could still work if they gave you an exact timer and a static amounts of time lost when you kill an echo.

[@weneedaladder8384]

@@michimatsch5862 it's not based on time at all, but on actions. The game gives you a bunch of useless actions to perform (such as playing the piano or hitting a tuning fork) so you can manually speed it up. I think the game requires you to do at least a few useful actions to trigger a blackout, so as to avoid you just making the AI completely useless every third cycle (I don't think Ross mentioned this, but the palace doesn't remember skills forever, only for the next two cycles after seeing you do it). It's genuinely nowhere near as bad as Ross describes it. You have about ten things you can do to completely protect yourself from the echoes, you just need to make sure you don't teach them all your skills at the same time.

[@kittenmittenkitten]

Quick response to the anti-aliasing part: Ross is right, something did break anti-aliasing over the last 10 years: deferred rendering. Previously, gpu's could natively multisample around corners, but deferred rendering broke that, and nobody has found a solution since, putting the burden of anti-aliasing on developers rather than GPU manufacturers, hence the proliferation of all these pure image based alternative options. If you want someone to blame, funnily enough it's Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl for being the first major release to use deferred rendering. The good news is that increasing monitor resolutions mean that eventually (and honestly with a 4k monitor I haven't really even thought about anti-aliasing that much) aliasing just won't be a thing anymore, unless you use a magnifying glass.

[@saniel2748]

I wonder why can't we just supersample gBuffers around the edges. I googled and even found some paper about that though idk if it's what im talking about UPD It is what I'm talking about, but to supersample deferred you'd need to basically render scene twice, so it's a bad idea

[@TheAlison1456]

The issue with 4k is that they're just too big. Can't we just have high DPI monitors? If we can fit 1080p in rectangles that fit in our palms, we could fit 4k in rectangles of the size of an 18imch screen.

[@_keerp]

Lately I have been using dynamic super resolution on my 5 year old Nvidia card, downsampling from 2k to my 1080p monitor. Runs quite well in most games, and looks way better than regular AA

[@michaelbitzer7295]

@@TheAlison1456 what? Small 4k screens are a thing. Why would you even want a standalone 18inch or smaller?

[@TheAlison1456]

@@michaelbitzer7295 Idk Wym by standalone, but I'd like to hear the name of this "small 4k" screen.

[@novelezra]

"Little did Ross know, by mentioning this one lost flash game, he would set in motion the biggest lost media search since Clock Man"

[@DroppedMyMarbles]

fucks me up because I'm pretty sure I played that one, is it actually lost media?

[@novelezra]

@@DroppedMyMarbles I have no idea! I will try and look into it later I suppose!

[@FellowHuman137]

Newgrounds

[@danielgordon2907]

i totally played that one too, it wasn't newgrounds it was i think an old adventure game engine

[@novelezra]

@@danielgordon2907 that would make sense considering Ross's penchant for old shareware/home made point and clicks.

[@batbrain55]

For your one-letter name collection, there's a character called N in Pokemon Black and White.

[@lShadow426l]

I don't think he counts nick names because N's name is literally Natural; Natural Harmonia Gropius

[@Zodroo_Tint]

You expect me to call a character N? "How are you my N?" "N please!" :)

[@milofranklin5386]

@@lShadow426l He lists both M and Q, which are codenames. What is a codename if not a professional nickname?

[@Magitek1112]

Also, G from House of the Dead.

[@lonewanderer3219]

For the start, Naruto also features characters called A and B

[@nikomo]

This literally looks like a tech demo that went on too long.

[@ThePadawan3]

like Hydrophobia!

[@theblackwidower]

Hardly demoing a lot of tech, given it was clearly made in AGS.

[@Myth_or_Mystery76]

Hellgate London: Ross complains about the same areas. Echo: Ross acts like tinting the screen make the same pattern new. Okay ...

[@Zodroo_Tint]

@@Myth_or_Mystery76 I think he said it clearly he knows there are only few things there but they managed to mix it together in a various way. (sorry my english failed me) And this is the situation. Think Different -> Think Sandwich! You can make different food with the same ingredient if you creative enough. I agree with him, devs did a pretty good job with those few they had. I'm talking about the areas of course not the gameplay.

[@satnav1980]

So basically Assassin's Creed then.

[@sawyerboigenzahn4174]

Literally had a blackout during one of the blackouts. Well played, Ross.

[@Brunosky_Inc]

The MIT squirrel is back with a vengeance!

[@Kadett-rr7ry]

Now this is 5D

[@eviljoel]

Oh hey, a fresh Game Dungeon about a game I've never heard of, just in time for dinner.

[@eviljoel]

Wait, so he apparently hates the game, yet also offers a discount. What?

[@dimsumboy22]

its the opposite, A fresh GD about a game I've played, just in time for breakfast!

[@AmalekIsComing]

I'm not eating anything

[@EmergencyChannel]

Sup SuperGreatFriend fam

[@phantomspaceman]

@@eviljoel You're right, if he hates the game it should cost 25% more for a month.

[@Shaderaygun]

I feel like this game's start is At The Mountains of Madness turning into 2001: A Space Odyssey more so than H.R. Geiger.

[@azmodanpc]

Yup, the palace looks like an homage to Kubrik's 2001 final scenes.

[@IDSearcher]

My favorite thing about this game is that it introduced me to the concept of basically space elves reimagined as smug AI that are smug because they live for thousands of years during warpless space travel. I find it clever.

[@robertflinch2447]

Ross sprinted through a stealth game through sheer determination

[@Johnny_Golgotha]

Yep! Whatever else one may say about the review and the understandable frustration he went through, gotta appreciate the commitment. All in all, I also appreciate how he can still keep perspective when tilted. For example, appreciating the architecture while torturing himself not even trying to stealth through.

[@EXRazeBurn]

A stealth game with wide open spaces in between cover, enemies that have randomized patrol patterns every couple of minutes, that RESPAWN every couple of minutes, and you're a character in a black suit sneaking in a fully white background. Stealth game, okay sure. 9_9

[@whelperw]

Stealth game with utterly irritating stealth gameplay (and gameplay in general). Playing slow and safe in ENORMOUSLY big rooms, that repit themselves over and over and over and over, is just waist of time.

[@Jake_Eyes]

When I look at the soul cube, I can't not see a block of redstone from Minecraft.

[@moronicalmeister]

Holy shit, I was wondering why my brain thought it looked silly.

[@MrNobody47710]

Wait... Ross forgot to include Soul Sand, in his soul cube comparison. Soul Sand is used to summon/create the Wither. That makes it highly mysterious.

[@thewizard2390]

Thanks Jake eyes. Can't wait for more m&m game review

[@johndoe5432]

Oh thank God it's not just me.

[@PressA2Die]

@@MrNobody47710 I do wonder if Ross has ever played Minecraft, one for the fan Chats.

[@Bluecho4]

>Creates an entire backstory about a cult of cloned children, forced to fight one another >Does absolutely nothing with it, and just makes the "clones" spontaneous copies with no individuality or character Like, Echo could have had a great plot about a woman returning to face the fanatical sisters she left behind. Missed opportunity.

[@weneedaladder8384]

It kinda couldn't have been about that. At least, not while still being called Echo. It's pretty clear it was designed from the gameplay mechanic of accidently teaching the Echos and then they came up with a story for it.

[@etodemerzel2627]

Except, En was the best student, she bested everyone, always. So, there's no point in facing her fanatical sisters again.

[@Sewblon]

@@etodemerzel2627 But there is strength in numbers. So all of en’s sisters together could still easily be a match for her. Her sisters could have learned new techniques in the time that they were apart that en doesn’t know about. En could be reluctant to kill her sisters and bring her full force to bear on them. So there are plenty of ways for her sisters to still be a threat. En trying to save her sisters who don’t want to be saved would have been an interesting story if they took the time and care to get it right.

[@Sewblon]

@@weneedaladder8384The title does not matter. The title is just a marketing tool. The echo learning mechanic is interesting. But the echos doing things without being taught that make them deadly threats makes it ultimately superfluous. So I still like the en vs sisters idea. It will probably never happen. But if it did happen, that would probably be better than the story that we got.

[@valletas]

I dont remenber the name now but theres a fictional law that if a story features an element it has to use it Like if a story shows a shotgun that shotgun is gonna be fired at some point What is the point of putting this here if you arent gonna do shit with it?

[@AustinJFerret]

"People like this aren't bad, but they're just going to waste your time, because all they do is introspect, even though they're making all this up as they go." I feel attacked.

[@flyingace1234]

God I just love the look of the palace in this game. I used to travel through Europe a lot and saw plenty of palaces and cathedrals. This game seems to combine both into one structure that exudes a mild sense of unease on its own.

[@Zodroo_Tint]

We had a royal palace but it got bombed in the second war, miraculously it was only mildly damaged but the Soviet occupied the country and they destroyed the interior on purpose, now it looks like a college dorm from the communist era. :)

[@Godspeed657]

Love it when Ross says "new game dungeon coming soon."

[@brandonmorel2658]

Ross experiences time like Dr Manhattan. That means his interpretation of time is not linear but more a collection of memories of the present, future and past. Ross is possibly referring to the Tyrian video, because he is still not able to differentiate past or present.

[@classiccustoms2010]

@@brandonmorel2658 Coincidentally I've actually been reading the Watchmen graphic novel for the first time ever. Unless it's not a coincidence at all . . . ;)

[@TBM1121]

@@classiccustoms2010 there are no coincidences, only cowinkydinkys

[@beepmoo8771]

@@TBM1121 what about cowankadonkas?

[@classiccustoms2010]

@@beepmoo8771 Sounds like a Wonka candy bar that the Oompa Loompas thought up while on crack.

[@Archipuddi]

I feel Ross missed an important gameplay point. Some action you do leave a "ghost" behind you meaning that action was recorded and will be used against you at the next cycle. A good way to deal with enemies is to varie these "skills" such as opening doors, going over obstacle or jumping down so you can outsmart them. If during one cyrcle, you open a door, vault and obstable and cross water, you're going to get at an heavy disavantage next cyrcle. You can even record useless stuff like playing piano so the clones gets one less skill. It's way more tactical than it is steathly.

[@DoubleBob]

That sounds like a really interesting concept. I guess it's an issue with communicating then. One or two tutorial messages from the AI could move this game from frustrating to intriguing for people, who missed this feature.

[@dwavenminer]

Yeah I think he also missed that you have some reasonably good control over the blackouts, they only occur after the echos have learnt a couple of skills from you (its been awhile since I've played so I can't remeber how many it was), more than a few times I gave them a skill just to trigger a blackout at a good spot.

[@Archipuddi]

@@DoubleBob The tutorial is to frustrate people enough so they try to figure out the cycle of light>dark>reset and what action are recorded and what aren't. It's a pretty challenging and terrible way to teach players a very unique system.

[@Archipuddi]

@@dwavenminer You're right about the blackout being triggered by skill learned and not by time so you can't cheese the system. Also, if you wait and just take in the environement, you wont have a blackout.

[@th3highwayman]

Holy shit. I'm looking at myself.

[@LiloVLOG]

A very stressful game indeed. I finished just because I love the design. The game is clearly inspired by manga "BLAME!". The gun, the enormous structures(even bigger in BLAME and they show how it is constructed) and other stuff. Love the design hate the gameplay.

[@JohnVmc2]

Woah, look who we found here... Wassup, Lilo? How's ya going?

[@JohnVmc2]

By the way, Blame! is on my top 3 manga.

[@BinaryDood]

I think you are stretching that connection

[@shktech6026]

Its got fucking nothing to do with BLAME!

[@LiloVLOG]

@@shktech6026 A gun that pierce through, life in a machine, huge construction, black clothes, going through levels(blame up, echo down). Yeah I'm crazy.

[@delphicdescant]

The issue with anti-aliasing is that deferred rendering became big, and the best of the oldschool anti-aliasing approaches don't work with it. But the old-fashioned forward renderers that *could* use those approaches have "unacceptable" drawbacks in regards to lighting. Specifically the number of lights that can be supported. There are lots of exceptions to what I'm saying, and all kinds of fancy workarounds, but in general, we sacrificed straightforward and good anti-aliasing for having a ton more light sources.

[@sacb0y]

Also MSAA doesn't help with all the dithering effects we use to avoid transparency issues. Stuff like DLSS and TXAA handle that much better. Also some effects are largely considered to work best with deferred, Screen space reflections, and I think certain decal tech works best with it. But they both have some work arounds for forward.

[@Zodroo_Tint]

Thanks, this is super interesting even if I'm a coding analphabet.

[@flippedoutkyrii]

Wasn't expecting this! Tried Running Echo a couple years back and it turned my GPU into a Jet Engine. I genuinely thought it was gonna set my Tower on Fire so I never went back to it. No other game on UE4, let alone any game in general, has done something like that.

[@flippedoutkyrii]

@Lassi Kinnunen 81 Lol no, my Overclocking days are far behind me, not since I fried 3 prior GPU's in my teens. Can't afford that now that I am living in my own apartment.

[@endig4501]

@@flippedoutkyrii Just saying, if you have an RTX card, MSI Afterburner has an automatic OC utility now. Won't hit the same highs, but it's super unlikely to break anything.

[@stevethepocket]

How much you want to bet there was no LOD optimization and the stuff a hundred meters away is just as high-poly as the versions right next to you?

[@Lowback]

Sanitarium has eyes following you around the menu! Thanks for the video Ross!

[@sirpuffball6366]

I mean that main menu was actually pretty cool. Always like when game devs try something interesting with that

[@TimDownsAnimation]

I can see a really cool alternative method to the black-out/doppelganger gimmick: no blackouts, but a quick warning before a random shift in colored lighting in the Palace. And for each color, the doppelgangers exhibit a different behavior. Maybe either just different levels of speed/aggression for each color, OR they remember certain behaviors they learn from the player per color. So if it's green when you vault over obstacles, they'll only do that when it's green again. And the colors are either randomized or have an elaborate pattern the player might be able to recognize like in the movie Cube. Or something, I dunno. I see lots of room for more interesting twists on the premise, as it's a really interesting idea having the enemies learn your behaviors between cycles so the player has to keep track of not only the enemies but themself. I dunno how that'd solve the infinite respawn problem though. It seems like the devs were really trying to Do Something with this game, but it ended up like this for whatever myriad reasons I'm sure there are. Awesome vid as always Ross!

[@z-beeblebrox]

I think with the the Aeon Flux eye, Aeon is actually meant to represent the fly. Because before the show, Aeon Flux was a series of short animations with no dialogue that appeared on Mtv's Liquid Television. And in every single episode, no matter how successful she is at her mission, Aeon manages to die somehow. Doesn't really explain WHY an eye, but at least it explains the venus fly trap imagery.

[@admiraltonydawning3847]

The eye because you can see her misfortune. And if you haven't looked, you wouldn't know what happened. So effectively your eyes sealed the fate of a character.

[@Piotwor]

I'm pretty sure they just did it because it was cool.

[@phantomspaceman]

It fit pretty well with the body horror themes. That series went to some weird places.

[@elijahnakumura4375]

Also didnt she turn out to have a bunch of clones made by that one blonde guy she was always trying to fuck/kill turned into a blue bird god of some sort.

[@phantomspaceman]

@@elijahnakumura4375 I guess? The movie didn't really live up to that show. The one I remember the most is the border wall that amputated limbs. And the gross eggs. And the microfilm tooth train scene.

[@Foostini]

The suit, outer palace, and gun are VERY BIOMEGA by Tsutomu Nihei. Hearing Ross go "all the fucking time" really caught me off guard.

[@bigbrownhouse6999]

Ross amazes me because it’s like he’s a genius but with pure common sense.

[@HypnotizeCampPosse]

4:50 that annoying questioning and aggressive attitude about not liking things was my entire set of colleagues in university. They met everything they didnt understand with this angsty questioning and straight up deny something could ostensibly exist or be possible because they dont understand it. And they get resentful as hell if you bring them around to understanding if they made that initial knee-jerk move and then shortly after ate shit. The university education system was even tailored to this sort of annoying thought process and i had to think like one of these annoying people to get through the classes.

[@KingLich451]

someone hire John Carmack to do RSAA - Ross Scott Anti Aliasing

[@somemadman262]

You mean Electricity Based Programming Demon Lord John Carmack?

[@falguard]

You mean Conscious Embodiment of the Technological Singularity that will inevitably consume us all, John Carmack?

[@Derpageddon]

You mean Benevolent Hyper-Intelligent Architect of the Post-Singularity Simulation we all live in, John Carmack?

[@Strawberry92fs]

He has the same face. HOW DOES HE HAVE THE SAME FACE?

[@fetidcreeper]

Suicide game might have been that game on newgrounds, that was part of Picos universe. The girl character wakes up with a cold sore and wants to kill herself, and you choose how. What a time that was.

[@tba113]

RE: the cult's tailored genetics... This wouldn't be the first sci-fi setting to have technology keyed to only be usable by people with specific bloodwork. It came up in a couple different ways as a recurring (if minor) plot point in the Stargate franchise, vibrantly blue eyes denoted a royal lineage and unlocked a badass giant robot in Xenogears, and the alien precursor tech hates you in Subnautica because it thinks you're infected with a space plague. Would have been kind of nice if this game mentioned what exactly the cult-refined blood actually did for you - it's not like it opens doors for you or anything, after all - but I guess they spent that part of their storytelling budget on blackout mechanics instead.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

You ARE infected with space plague in Subnautica doe

[@tba113]

@@ineednochannelyoutube5384 Indeed. My point was that computer systems deciding whether to allow a user access or locking them out based on the user's blood work was part of the plot, so gene-coded computers aren't unknown in science fiction.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

@@tba113 Sure, I agree with that. My first game in mind with dna locked weapons specifically is Escape from Butcher Bay, the Riddick tie in game. It has most certainly been used elswhere too.

[@GeorgeMonet]

@@tba113 I don't think a computer that locks you out if you have the very virus that the planet was put on lockdown to prevent spreading counts as gene-coded. The computer isn't locking you out because you don't have the right genes, it is preventing you from disabling the planet lockdown until EVERYONE is cured for the virus.

[@scienceguy8]

Ah, the good old ATA. The Ancient Technology Activation gene. Useful for keeping your young cousin species from using the technology you've left haphazardly laying around, until they invent a gene-editing medicine that can let anyone pilot a Puddle Jumper (with varying levels of success and proficiency).

[@oergpoerg4658]

Awards: Love & Hate Best Space Palace *award went missing during a blackout*

[@BenersantheBread]

Seems more like Hate & Hate to me

[@Rusminin]

I'm gonna call this game "Getting over yourself with London, the Paranoid Android"

[@Sewblon]

London sounds less paranoid than he does just cruel.

[@Rusminin]

@@Sewblon Well that's the original joke of sorts - Marvin isn't paranoid either.

[@VeryPeeved]

a game about copies of you learning from your actions would be a great opportunity for a moral of some kind about being a role model. this wouldn't be hard to codify into the gameplay. have the more direct means of dealing with the clones be easy to use, but make things more and more difficult as you go along, while subtler means could avoid conflict entirely, and with some wrangling you could even get the clones to aid you, with puzzles or later on with fighting the automatons.

[@teranokitty]

Just make sure that the clones always see you helping a little old woman crossing the street.

[@JediEdi]

@Weapons Of Mass Distraction Sometimes breaking the mold is what a game needs.

[@user-xu2pi6vx7o]

You actually can trick the clones into helping you. The clones will imitate your actions, so if you spend one turn looking for collectibles, then on the next turn, the clones start searching for collectibles as well, which are then counted as having been found by you, the player.

[@DarthBiomech]

I kept thinking that avoiding killing the clones, eating the berries and playing the instruments will affect the clones behavior in some way, but nope. I've made the fist chunk of the game significantly more frustrating and longer than it needed to be thinking that if I won't be agressive towards the clones their behavior will change.

[@DarthBiomech]

@Weapons Of Mass Distraction The trivial thing to mitigate that is to structure parts of the game in a way that being friendly prevents you from progressing.

[@mynameisozymandias7150]

Fun fact: Martin Emborg, game director and art director of this game, now works for IO Interactive.

[@TheAlison1456]

That makes a lot of sense.

[@0uttaS1TE]

Good on him. Honestly the game does look good. It's only the mechanics that fail it.

[@caav56]

@@TheAlison1456 More later.

[@TheAlison1456]

@@caav56 it'll make more sense later? Why?

[@caav56]

@@TheAlison1456 It's a Maabus joke. When Admiral goes "Now things are starting to make sense. More later."

[@wakipaki7381]

Where's the awards for this game? That's one of the best parts of your reviews, Ross! I made some mock-ups of what I feel were fitting: 1st Award - Archeology Dreamhouse. If you wanted to explore a beautiful, opulent infinite palace full of great decorations and designs, then I can't think of something better. It's sort of like the mansions from Black Mirror, just a different style and taken to a more supernatural extreme. 2nd Award - Faulty Lightswitch. The light/dark cycles of this game are easily the most annoying part. Hard to enjoy the game like this, where every minute you're just getting cut off so it can- 3rd Award - Doesn't Respect Your Time. Between the slowing the player down for conversations, the respawning enemies that impede progress, and dying over and over making you restart; the game is just a timesink.

[@wakipaki7381]

Potential 4th Award - Kiddie Pool Plot. It wants to seem deep and complex and cool like the ocean, but it's just sitting in the backyard with a hose pouring water into a shallow tub.

[@CaptainPrincess]

this game is definitely a prime candidate for that extractable game worlds thing you talked about look at this place damn

[@mendelovitch]

If you want more megastructures, look up the comics "BLAME!".

[@gestaltengine6369]

That manga is just pure misery. Some incoherent violence followed by some kind of destruction.

[@night1952]

Yeah, i got BLAME! vives from this game too, the gun as well.

[@stryker5055]

Glad I wasn't the only one who picked up on this.

[@ThatSlowTypingGuy]

BLAME! was one of the first things I thought of when they were down on the surface.

[@mendelovitch]

@@gestaltengine6369 Also, En looks like a miserable goth. In "BLAME!" everyone looks like a miserable goth, especially the cyborgs… The designers of Echo might have taken inspiration from "BLAME!" but the author of "BLAME!" took inspiration from Hellraiser's Cenobites. Incidentally, Kentaro Miura took inspiration from Hellraiser lwhen he created the miserable goth looking God Hand.

[@genuinesaucy]

It's Gears of War's fault for popularizing forced walking sections. That shit was an epidemic for the entire following decade. It's still not gone yet either.

[@Other_Kev]

I know the 2nd game lets you press the select button to skip those conversations, I guess nobody else got the memo

[@0xyg3n]

I'd really like to see Ross' version of The Shining as The Shimmering with him playing losing his marbles over bad AA.

[@BloodrealmX]

All polygons and no anti-aliasing make Ross an angry boy. All polygons and no anti-aliasing make Ross an angry boy. All polygons and no anti-aliasing make Ross an angry boy. All polygons and no anti-aliasing make Ross an angry boy. All polygons and no anti-aliasing make Ross an angry boy. All polygons and no anti-aliasing make Ross an angry boy.

[@weldonwin]

This very much seems like an Auteur game, IE, one that was created by someone with an artistic vision who would not compromise on said vision, even if it ultimately made for a bad game. And I will say, the game does look incredible, no one doubts that I think, but it is also obvious that it was the vision of the game, that all the effort and thought went into. The story only serves the look, doubly so the gameplay

[@user-xu2pi6vx7o]

You can easily kill the clones, without triggering a blackout. At one point I killed every clone in a level at the same time. 1. The game has a shove function that eats regenerating stamina. The game also has a melee action, to free yourself from a clone's grasp if you're caught, that eats a separate regenerating stamina from the shove. Both actions eat the same amount of stamina and thus take the same amount of time to replenish. Thus, you can juggle between a shove and a melee indefinitely, because the stamina for one will regenerate while you're using the other. 2. Clones always die if they go over a railing. Doesn't matter how low a railing and it doesn't matter what's on the other side of the railing, it just needs to be a railing. So, just walk up to a clone and shove it, then start jogging towards a railing. When the clone eventually catches up to you, use a melee to get it off your back, then go back to jogging towards the railing. When the clone catches up to you again, your shove will be ready, so just shove it again. Keep doing this until you reach a railing. When you get to a railing, start running as close to the railing as you can, so that the clone does the same. Stop and either shove or melee the clone. Once that is done, reposition yourself so the clone is now between you and the railing. As soon as the clone recovers after the shove/melee, simply shove it over and job's done. Clone is now dead, but the game never registers this as a death so it never blacks out and it never lets the clones learn from this.

[@Juhziz]

Reminds me of trick speedrunners use to do accidents in Hitman:BM, when they just push target over the railing, no matter how high it has to fall, it always count as accidental elimination.

[@quint3ssent1a]

For a game made by a bunch of students as their graduation project Echo really looks and plays good. The idea that your actions make your future worse and worse really makes this horror real.

[@MadGameBoy]

Some steps to make the game actually fun: 1: first floors would be the longest, incomplete en clones walking about, they are very dumb, and learn even slower than usual, and it's up to the player how to proceed with them. They can be friendly throughout the entire stage, and even help you and possibly talk to you later on in the game if you proceed that way, however, London encourages you to get rid of them as he has records of what previous clones have done to fosters previous soldiers hes sent down here. If you follow London's orders, immediately they become more aggressive. This gives players a reason to play the game multiple times for different styles of playthroughs. This also results in different endings 2: the power outages only happen for the first few instances when revealing the black masses, they do not return. However a seperate version occurs in a later stage (either the white or black floors) that act like they do in the current game. These blackouts are only on this floor and dont happen anywhere else 3: while the enemy of your enemy is not your friend, your the first enemy doesnt like the 2nd one either, clones attack automatons once they witness you doing it enough 3: the ending of the game isnt the ending. You now play as foster, who is given two options. A) go back up and leave the facility, encountering clones of himself in the process, b) go even deeper and attempt to save en who London said sacrificed herself for you encountering different entities

[@cola98765]

I hate that there are so many good ideas in the comments

[@marley7868]

it would also help the player cause london has no charisma but he would have a decent point that the player via his personality is prompted to question

[@MrNobody47710]

Ross's stance on "graphics quality vs image fidelity" seems similar to LowSpecGamer's general point of view. The quality of a game's graphics can be reduced to spectacular lows, but the ability to clearly make out the image should never be compromised. Blurriness and unwanted shimmering are unacceptable. The main issue is that ultra high quality graphics are a better selling point than something as basic as effective anti-aliasing. Most people won't even notice anti-aliasing, but they can drop their jaws at astounding visuals.

[@fattiger6957]

You do notice anti-aliasing. When patterns are going nuts because of the lack of it, it's really distracting. Just like how some older games had low shadow detail, so they had this sawblade jaggedness to the edges.

[@MrNobody47710]

@@fattiger6957 True, but anti-aliasing might not be noticeable to the casual eye, beyond a certain point. It wouldn't surprise me if this were the case, but game developers are probably making a deliberate decision, when it comes to making a trade off between visual fidelity and quality of graphics. They might rely on assuming that graphics of a high enough quality can "balance out" issues with visual fidelity, such that the casual gamer will fail to notice or care about visual fidelity issues. As long as anti-aliasing and other aids for visual fidelity are "adequate," so that people aren't distracted, then the gratuity of "amazing graphics" will keep people satisfied. Something like anti-aliasing can't be absent, but it can be lowered to a certain level. This seems like another example of catering to the "lowest common denominator," while people that aren't in the LCD notice everything that's wrong.

[@LonelySpaceDetective]

I'm far from playing modern "high-quality graphics" games right now, but something I have noticed when looking at documentation on graphics options and some enthusiast discussion is that a lot of games in the past decade or so have poor implementations of anti-aliasing, and almost all of them rely on either somewhat poor post-processing solutions like FXAA or full-blown supersampling/downsampling with nothing in-between. MSAA works fairly well from what I know and at a lesser performance cost than downsampling, yet few games actually let you use it anymore. Ambient occlusion seems to be in a very similar position; most of the time you either get a poor screen-space AO implementation or full-blown raytracing with everything good and bad (i.e. it dragging down your FPS) it entails. Horizon-based AO can look really nice (it's not raytracing by any means but it definitely adds nice depth to a scene when done well, and at a much lesser performance cost), but most of the time it seems developers just don't care. I'm not sure why I'm posting this since I kinda agree with the point (though I admit that I'm one of those people who treats AA as a low-priority thing when setting graphics options, maybe my tune will change later), but I guess I wanted to get my two cents in.

[@MrNobody47710]

@@LonelySpaceDetective Game developers have been guilty of poorly implementing a variety of "graphical enhancements" for a while. Way before modern ambient occlusion was bloom lighting. As soon as that was popularized, everyone tried to use, to the point of overusing it. For a certain period of gaming, there was almost nothing but visuals that were oversaturated by overly dramatic lighting. It was like staring directly into the sun. Aesthetically, its overuse was terrible, but it was probably "impressive" enough to make the then modern graphics seem "good" to the casual gamer or reviewer, despite its aesthetic ruining nature. In the end, it might all be about "what sells," not what "truly" looks "good."

[@MrDrCthulhu]

@@MrNobody47710 Ah, the classic "Brown and Bloom" era. So realistic! So HD! Man, I'm glad that's over, even if I'm a bit nostalgic for the games themselves.

[@Wannabe_Baby]

Having never heard of this game, it seems like a tech demo that someone decided to flesh out after a positive reception to their proof-of-concept. Couldn't agree more as far as making the player walk slowly during playable story segments. Not a fan at all of how that particular quirk caught on among certain developers. I get that they don't want to break up the gameplay and then they describe it as "immersive" but just having a skippable cutscene would be a huge improvement over handicapping the player to listen to dialogue for a story they may not care about.

[@nifftbatuff676]

These walking segments are beautiful imo.

[@GrimmShadowsII]

It would be better if they spent more time planning so the story part would be the same length as atleast the average speed, I don't like it but I can excuse it disableing run, but this game it makes you go the slowest speed and thats what makes it annoying.

[@night1952]

It's not like there are enemies, just let me walk normally while i listen to the story. And there are ways to make the player want to slow down instead of forcing them.

[@EvilDoresh]

I would like to say that they think this is more "cinematic", but I don't recall many movies where a character is leisurely strolling around talking to a disembodied voice.

[@Rendo86]

there has to be term for slowing down movement but, I call it like yank the chain, or maybe The dog walk. I see this alot and I can't not think this isn't codifed.

[@gworfish]

This is one of those games I really appreciate because they are trying new things, but have no interest in playing. But a game where eating grapes is a part of the tactics does sound a bit interesting.

[@xXMapleVodkaXx]

Hey, Hellraiser fan. The LeMarchand Puzzle Boxes aren't soul cubes, technically they're the keys to the doors of Hell, or handheld portals to Hell themselves. But, arguably, they're sort of soul cubes as the activation of one immediately releases/calls the Cennobites into the mortal realm to drag people into Hell. And Hell is the biggest soul cube there is. Soul Cube-adjacent I guess.

[@marley7868]

well soul diamond

[@Rad-Dude63andathird]

It's worth noting that cenobite Hell isn't necessarily biblical Hell in terms of like, being a place to punish damned souls, moreso a hellish dimension.

[@patrickmiller4229]

Stopped everything I was doing...This deserves all my attention!

[@CluckN]

Same here, I was preforming CPR but this takes priority

[@michaelmaage]

Me too. Looks like it's gonna be a great Sunday after all

[@MoldRoss]

So true Ross content is worth it

[@DopecrawleR69]

I wonder if people back in the days felt the same way about everyone's favorite "What a horrible night to have a curse" box from Simon's Quest.

[@z-beeblebrox]

Simon's Quest has always been notoriously obnoxious. If anything, it's beloved in *spite* of its gameplay, not because of it. Well, even "beloved" is arguable. Some people just hate it.

[@joeyv.7360]

Horrible night was completely irritating, but one could work with it. It didn't stop the player from completing main quest objectives (mansions, defeating dracula). The mistranslations and red herrings made the game legitimately awful, (even though i like it still.). Now this game, I don't know. This game really looks like it never got past the "these missions suck" phase of development, which could only be determined by playtesting. Glad other people see the echo = scifi simons quest.

[@LonelySpaceDetective]

The fact that it was picked upon by the AVGN in the very first episode suggests to me that it was seen as an issue well before the advent of caustic critics, though one still has to keep in mind that the character of the AVGN is intentionally hyperbolic. Personally, I feel the larger issue with Simon's Quest is its terribad translation and various unclear tasks. At least there's a nice hack that retranslates all the dialogue and also adds things like an in-game map and a clue log. As for Echo, while this video is my first exposure to it, going from what I've seen I think the problem at it core is that its a stealth game with environments that are built to look pretty rather than be sneaked around in. They definitely look nice, but they do not offer much in the way of hiding places or areas where you can remain out-of-sight of the clones, making the experience of playing either very slow or something along the lines of what Ross experienced here with being constantly spotted. Removing the blackout mechanic might be an improvement technically, but I don't think it'd solve the core issue with the level design. It could even turn it from a stealth game to essentially a clunky third-person shooter. EDIT: Late edit, but I wonder how many games nowadays suffer from this issue of having levels that're made to look nice or like a real place, but had no thought put into whether they feel good to play through or if they fit the game design. Not to sound like a boomer, but I feel like Duke Nukem 3D solved this issue and that was a game from the mid-90's that can't even do true room-over-room.

[@sleepyNepeta]

At least for Simon's quest, we have a hack that fixes most of the issues called Castlevania II: Simon's Quest Redaction(AVGN has a review of it). I would love to see a remake of this game with a slightly better gameplay, but the chance of it is quite slim.

[@LonelySpaceDetective]

@@sleepyNepeta I'm personally more of favor of the retranslation by Bisqwit, since it sticks more closely to the original text and adds new things like what I mentioned in my earlier reply, but Redaction seems like a good hack too.

[@kieranhurst8543]

The whole "forced walking cinematic" segments were popularised by console games in the late 2000s to early 2010s, the most notable example is The Last of Us which would constantly restrict your speed for the sake of narrative moments. I think it was brought in to address the common complaint that cutscenes are not interactive.

[@EvilDoresh]

Either way you have to wait for the dialogue to be over before you can _play the game_ again. Cutscenes are just more honest about it. "Forced walking cinematic" segments might also be considered the "lazier" alternative, since you're basically just playing an audio file while restricting player actions (and _maybe_ start a unique animation of the character holding a phone / putting a hand on an ear piece or something).

[@drifter402]

It's total cancer that's always bad

[@HallyVee]

Not Halo 3?

[@Wizardofexisting]

I was completely enamored by this game when I first played it, but then I saw how unforgiving it was in it's core gameplay loop. I like stealth games, but I don't like that feeling of overwhelming oppression Echo gave me. The story seemed fun and interesting at first, but the characters motivations were very weird. All in all, I think Ross nailed it and he's a better gamer than I for finishing the game. I couldn't.

[@JomasterTheSecond]

"Death by combat or get turned into a cube." Yeah, sounds like a normal weekend.

[@azmodanpc]

Worst cult indoctrination ruse whatsoever.

[@beanseason6515]

I always thought the Aeon Flux intro was just showing how precise and deadly an agent she is. Plus, a lot of it was just weird for the sake of weird, so prob not worth overthinking.

[@supersnow17]

It's been TWO YEARS since this one launched? Feels like this one came out months ago...

[@Raybro16]

Aight, so I'm playing this game myself as of writing and I've noticed several things about it that Ross either missed or misinterpreted or whatever; 1st, it actually plays better as a stealth game. Actively hiding and taking out enemies is more engaging than constantly jogging with maybe three or four chasing you. The only issue would be the level design as a number of the levels are a bit too open, making stealth difficult. So far maybe one or two sections of levels gave me real difficulty due to how wide open they were, so Ross is right about that. 2nd, there IS a way to control the blackouts, though I have a vague idea on how it works. I think its tied to the amount of actions that are recorded that the enemy clones can learn from you. If i need to force a blackout, what i would do is perform some repeatable actions like grabbing items, sliding over counters or even shouting, stuff i can work around, and once i hear the audio que and the blackout starts occuring i can be as reckless as i want just as long as i find a safe place before the lights turn back on. Not only that, i hold off on more important actions like opening doors, riding elevators, and walking on water so the clones don't learn them until i absolutely need to use then, like either during a blackout or a tense chase. Its a neat little strategy even if the blackout stage is short and it limits me during the light stages, ending up with me standing around and waiting for the lights to go out. It also explains why sometimes the light stages are too short or long. Not only that, most enemies usually stay in place when the blackout finishes, so you can learn where they are and their routes they follow. Any clones that are out of their original position will jog or walk back to where they started, forgetting that they were hunting you in the first place as long as you're out of sight. Third, the whirbly text at the end of each stage is tied to these tuning forks that you find throughout the levels. If you find enough of then, the text is perfectly legible. However, they can be a pain in the ass to find due to how open the levels can be. Text has something to do with the cult En was in as they read like verses from some holy book thing. So far, not a bad game as long as you play it as how it was intended to be played. Still has its hiccups like the respawning enemies and the frequency of the blackouts despite being able to control them

[@Zodroo_Tint]

"So far, not a bad game as long as you play it as how it was intended to be played." This maybe the problem. I remember playing Thief with a tonne of moss arrow shooting everyone in the face and running around like a madman because I was detected. Not the intended gameplay but still availabe if you failed to stealth. I reloaded though but it was fun to get some break and I think the game would have no problem with it if I continued playing like that.

[@aprofondir]

So it is a bad game

[@Raybro16]

@@aprofondir like I said, it’s not a bad game. However, I can see where the gripes are and how frustrating it can be. If anything, one would play this game primarily for the aesthetics; the game is GORGEOUS, every inch of the Palace is incredible. The liminal spaciness of it all makes it an incredible location to explore. If I had to make a comparison, it would be on the same level as Asura’s Wrath; while the main gameplay is rough at best, that’s not the main reason you would play it. For Asura, it’s the off the wall anime esque story, and for this game it’s to explore the Palace.

[@DerFreiegedanke]

Every time a Game Dungeon video pops up in my feed it really, i mean really, provokes a wholesome feeling. It's like getting a warm cup of chocolate when sitting in a comfy chair. Thank you Ross! Really appreciated!

[@TheTeddyGuy28]

"Hmm, the day off and nothing to watch...I sure would love a new Game Dungeon." Ross, an hour later:

[@QueenSydon]

Spot on about the slow-walking thing. It's infuriating when it can't be skipped at all. Moving slow and taking in the sights/story should ALWAYS be up to the player, now matter how "artistic" your game is supposed to be.

[@piotr78]

Plague tale games say hello. God it infuriates me

[@hongquiao]

This feels very similar to the game "NaissanceE". At least in the "Exploring a giant fractal nightmare environment clearly inspired by the manga Blame" sense. (NaissanceE came out first (2014) You're not constantly being chased in that game though. It's more of an abstract Puzzle/ Exploration/ Platforming affaire. The atmosphere and the music are stellar, and it's free on Steam, what else do you want me to say?

[@argentoAFK47]

It feels so weird seeing an episode on a game that I actually played not so long ago. I actually came out of the game loving it, warts and all! It's a shame you didn't, but you got that right: sticking to stealth, getting a good handle on detection radius, hoola hoop visor open 24/7 and strangling enemies a lot makes the game a lot smoother.

[@user-xu2pi6vx7o]

Or just shove everything over a railing, since that is an instant death for the clones, but not a trigger for the next reset. You can lure the clones to a railing by letting yourself be spotted by them and then alternate between shoving and melee-ing them, as you jog away.

[@CarlMakesVideos]

25:35, this kind of problem absolutely permeates a lot of high budget games these days. At a certain point, the exposition should just be relegated to a cutscene. Since it is technically gameplay and cant be skipped, it makes the player dread doing repeat playthroughs.

[@fearjunkie]

Watched half of this before falling asleep and the other half right after waking up so I got bonus video blackouts everytime I nodded off.

[@Yusuke_Denton]

I'm a raging alcoholic, so the blackouts come naturally.

[@ZenSolipsist]

Solipsism Simulator: The Game. The Self is all that can be known to exist

[@Edward256]

You know, the first level of the Palace, The White Palace if you will, kind of reminded me of 2001 Space Odyssey's ending with David in his luxurious apartment. Just the mystery surrounding this game made me thing of the mystery surrounding David's apartment. Or 2001 in general.

[@rapchee]

re: genetic requirements: i played this briefly after reading nihei's "blame!" (pronounced blam, incidentally, because japan), where the protagonist's main quest in to find humans with the "terminal gene" (as in command line, not final), that can access the network that runs the world. so i automatically assumed it was this sort of genetical engineering, she needed to have certain genes to be able to access the palace

[@Giffsen]

Was expecting someone to mention BLAME! Great manga!

[@termitreter6545]

Yeh, that was my thought as well, considering shes obviously not some super soldier. Its a common trope to have some genetic key. Heck, Ciri in the Witcher, for example, has a specific combination of genes bred into her to unlock her abilities.

[@zacharychristy8928]

Weird! I found this game shortly after reading BLAME! Too... thought it was a weird coincidence that there was so much media based on mysterious and dizzyingly infinite architecture.

[@spacejunk2186]

Rip Foster then he is now stuck I guess

[@Triffgits]

@@spacejunk2186 I think foster may actually have full control of the palace now.

[@Chreeeis]

This shares a few traits with my favorite work of fiction- Blame! -incomprehensibly far into the future -gigantic and illogical architecture -little narrative of importance Its a good thing i kept watching because i was ready to download this game immediately.

[@BumboLooks]

Do you also like music that repeats forever?

[@brandonmorel2658]

The story of the game strikes me as the epilogue to an epic journey. The game assumes we know the characters and their relations and motivations. The ending itself looks like the completion to the character arc of En. Maybe it is a transmedia narrative. Like the Halo books, comics and the erotic novels that explain the story of Master Chief, Cortana and the other guys.

[@PharmacyCzar]

Recognizing the Rama music once the end credits started brought me an immense amount of joy.

[@jujuplayboy]

The Palace is fucking gorgeous.

[@glitchedoom]

Kind of reminds me of parts of the castle in Resident Evil 4 at times.

[@SuperCatfire]

it creeps me the fuck out because it looks almost normal but then its too fractal and perfectly symmetrical and its just too uncanny

[@Infernal969]

I love it for the same reason Ross mentioned. It just looks like an abstract dream that seems perfectly normal to you until you wake up. We need more games with enviroments like that.

[@vgamedude12]

En is a moody depressed character set on self sacrifice. Her doppelgangers are the logical evolved parts of her subconscious trying to stop her from destroying herself. They stop attacking once she is rid of the soul cube since the reason for her self sacrifice is gone. Thats what I got out of that.

[@KurenaiHideyoshi]

Honestly, ECHO had a great concept on their hands--but the execution was problematic. I’d agree on removing the blackouts, as they do seemingly bog down the pacing and visuals… But there’s also something of importance: “It turns out the doppelgängers weren’t interested in En. They wanted the cube!” THIS. If they expanded on this plot element, it could’ve solved a lot of the game’s difficulty and pacing problems! Let’s say you had a mechanic where you could throw the cube somewhere. It could be used for hitting switches or fitting it into slots, but a doppelgänger might run to the cube and snatch it, putting it on their back. Now the other fakes would chase the new carrier and eliminate them, then take the cube for themselves. Being able to keep the heat off your back could prove useful in trying to figure out the puzzles; Just hand them the cube, let them fight over it while you search around, and then continue pushing on. This would also allow for a more natural difficulty curve in handling the clones; If you relied on tossing the cube too much, the clones might start getting the idea to throw the cube elsewhere if they’re being attacked a lot. And if you throw them directly at other clones, they might do it too… And could even throw it your way, making you the target of ire once again. If you attack clones that aren’t carrying the cube while you’re not carrying it either, they may begin to not trust each other and thusly fight a bunch; They’ll be distracted more frequently, but ditching the cube will not keep you safe. Then you get to the automatons, who are hostile to pretty much everybody. Their animosity and power forces you to shoot them… but the clones will then learn about shooting too, and will begin gunning down carriers while also shooting the automatons. Now the cube is essentially a homing beacon for enemy fire, while also being a necessary puzzle element--so you then start playing hot potato, trying to minimize the danger of holding the cube. I’d also say that the generative AI should be reset after each level, unless you choose an extreme difficulty. Now, I know that this pitch isn’t perfect--being able to hand off the cube and avoid being targeted might make the game too easy. But of course, the currently-presented product can prove to be too hard--so it’s honestly up to the jury.