China and Democracy

A session from the 2012 Aspen Ideas festival. In much of the world, China is admired-or feared-as the rising new model of economic achievement under ruthlessly effective government direction. In the eyes of many others, the Chinese model is increasingly showing its contradictions and limits: economic, environmental, social, and political. Two of the world's leading exponents of these respective views discuss where they disagree, and why-and what the next stage is most likely to hold for the world's most populous and (until recently) fastest-growing nation
Speakers: Eric X. Li, Minxin Pei, James Fallows

[@flyoverbluesky]

This is the year 2022, 10 years since this session in 2012, and I look forward to the follow-up session with the same 2 speakers. The world has changed a lot in the past 10 years, and Eric's perspective on China has proven still valid. Thank you!

[@bartonlee3594]

Nice to see that Eric has reverted to socialism and denounced capitalism now, in line with Xi Thought. He's not a "venture capitalist" anymore. He's a "venture communist" again.

[@tigading2177]

@@bartonlee3594 what's in a name? Eric has always propounded practicality over rhetorics. You can claim to be whatever you want but let's look at the results, for ordinary people that is what matters. U$ always proclaimed itself to be the greatest, freest, democracy - is it? Does it really change anything? U$ always proclaimed itself to be champions of human rights - is it? U$ itself was born out of european conquest, genocides, sure we can all put it down to history, therefore it is entirely okay. But just look at U$ post WW2, post cold war era, look at what it did to the middle east, the wars, the slaughter, the looting even today looting is still going on in Syria by U$ marines aka mercenaries. U$ always proclaimed itself to be wealthiest nation - is it? Perhaps it has the wealthiest people on earth, but is it any good for the ordinary Americans, does it make America great again? More and more people are waking up to the illusion of the so called American Dreams, you'd have to be asleep to believe it. I don't think China cares what you or U$ thinks or do in the U$A, so long as you don't force it down the chinese throats.

[@bartonlee3594]

@@tigading2177 I agree. The USA is a capitalist state run by a cabal that serves the rich billionaire class. China was following the same path. But fortunately China is returning to socialism. Xi Thought provides the correct path. The multimillionaire class now understands that service to The People and The State is the correct way. After the Covid death massacre ends, the rich class will be brought in line. Eric X. Lee understands this. Which is why he has became a 'venture socialist' instead of a 'venture capitalist.' Thank you for your input on this particular matter.

[@docaz9453]

@@bartonlee3594 many people already said that china not really communist country

[@bartonlee3594]

@@docaz9453 Oh, I agree, not "commuist." But President Xi is now making the capitalists give up their money to the poor. Rich people for many years took their money overseas out of China, bought assets overseas, and got overseas citizenship. They cannot do now. The rich are warned: follow the party or go to jail. I think Eric Lee understands that. He was a rich man who now does what the CPC says for him to do. This video is very old, from when Eric was a capitalist.

[@Ldsyldsy]

Pei has legitimately suffered from the worst years of China's development, but he was brainwashed by the fairy tale of the American form of democracy and, like many other scholars, failed to objectively study the facts and effects both in "democratic" countries and China's reformations. Eric Li, on the other hand, speaks from actual, first hand experiences and with penetrating insights.

[@DBGE001]

Exactly, Eric speaks with fact at hand, avoiding dogma's and bias.

[@varivavariva6045]

Minxin Pei was 100% wrong in his predictions. Ironically, his predictions would be 100% correct if they were applied to the US.

[@user-hr6tb9fh8k]

lol

[@inkbold8511]

🤣 that's so true. Definitely apply to US

[@judyling3173]

Well said Variva 👏 ？！

[@yananneteoh9818]

He 's elitist and has a colonial mind. His interpretation eg. of nob Honygkong

[@jopeco2538]

Yes

[@dearship]

Pei is from the age of suffering, and Eric is from the age of rising... one looks back but didn't look ahead, another has broader viewer... from when I comment on this video, Nov 2020, it proves Eric is correct.

[@jackyeh7512]

Well said. One is nick-picking the past and the other is forward thinking for the majority of the people.

[@josechong8207]

Not to diminish his suffering, because like him, many have suffered during those difficult years and throughout human history. But one must look forward, not backward...

[@JeanBaptisteCalo71]

Definitely

[@leesgtk8969]

Pei is paid

[@thecrimsondragon9744]

​@@leesgtk8969So is Eric.

[@yuningchen2019]

Watch it today and you realize how far sight was Li.

[@nelsonlim512]

cannot agree more

[@mikef6399]

The only place that white hair guy can hold a job is in the US where there are enough naive (or stupid) people who WANT to believe those predictions given by people like Gordan Chang and this guy that China will collaps on its own. Well, 10 years later after this debate, it simply proved these guys are no better making predictions about China than your drunken uncle. The only difference is you won't take your drunken uncle's prediction seriously, but you believe this guy and Gorden Chang.

[@judsonsilva8618]

@@mikef6399 OMG! and that was all bf they built all those HSR!

[@HeresMyView]

This debate was in 2012. Today, it is 2021. 9 yrs later, Eric Li is precisely correct. China has not collapsed as described by Minxin Pei. The contradictions n limits, economic, environmental, social, and political reasons have NOT marialized. All the predictions by Pei were wrong. Why? Becos these reasons were based on illusions, fake news, n superficial misinformation driven by mainstream media focus primarily on Red Scare and Yellow Peril. America is in decline today n suffering fr faded glory. China is a dynamic "democratic" country constantly undergoing reforms n transformations to serve its people. It is the government of the people, for the people n by the people of CPC (Communist Party of China), not CCP (Chinese Communist Party). The CCP is gone. The CPC is the population of the Chinese People with a one- party system who elect its leader based on meritocracy n competence to cater to the interest of the Chinese people. In US, the oligarchy (1% elites, super rich) rules the population, control the propaganda n campaign fundings to elect its leader. That’s why the rich is getting richer n the poor is getting poorer resulting in huge inequality in wealth gap. In China, over 850 million were lifted out of poverty, unprecedented freedom enjoyed by the population, n the most phenomenal economic prosperity achieved in the history of mankind. That's why Pei predictions of China's collapsed failed miserably. China will be the largest economy in the next 20 yrs. Watch the rise of China's super economic power house by 2040 kzbin.info/www/bejne/al6Vn6Saa5KNjsk The primary reason why Pei failed bcos he did not see the deficiencies in the US democracy. In reality, the oligarchy are in control, not the democratic system as perceived. It is the system of government based on "some are more equal than others." So, in fact, MSM used misinformation, manipulation, fabrication, n indoctrination to drive the narrative to control the population. That’s the sophistication of control that overide Minxin Pei's conviction. He truly believed in freedom but was misled. Sad.

[@DrakeLimOfficial]

@@HeresMyView Yes, misinformation and fake news is what is circulated widely in this notion of freedom of press to cause more disarray and violence to escalate even further. We are seeing this in full force now. They excuse extremist sentiments and allowed it to perpetrate the security of a safe society.

[@bobguard]

This is year 2021. A lot of what Eric said is still valid. Unfortunately, Minxin's dogmatic notion of democracy is under pressure.

[@NookaNifty]

Minxin Pei is not objective, his prophecies were based on fantasies. I don't know what he thinks today, but I don't think he has learned anything.

[@zuckergolf4442]

Autocracies like the Chinese one party system are the embodiment of dogmatism, the ruling minority doesn’t even allow the majority to have a political opinion that is against the view of the ccp.

[@bobguard]

@@zuckergolf4442 The CPC has embraced capitalism but maintained it's socialist roots. The US-style liberal democracy with all it's short- falls being reveal each passing day, and it's refusal to do any self appraisal and work to improved the huge middle class? So who is the dogmatic ones? As for the ruling minority, etc., the last I heard is that the majority of the Chinese supported their central government and their policies in general, so I don't know where you can that notion.

[@zuckergolf4442]

@@bobguard the Chinese citizens have to agree with the ccp and get indoctrinated with the idea that the Ccp has no flaws. That is the definition of dogmatism

[@zuckergolf4442]

@@bobguard so you’re saying that the US should take away all the political power from the working class to improve their conditions??

[@jeansempe1441]

China's GDP almost doubled since that talk in 2012. The Chinese government continues to deliver.

[@angkihermawan9322]

Now 2022, Eric Li's opinion is getting more TRUE. I would make a conclusion: It is not the system that is matter, but the INTEGRITY AND INTELLIGENCE of the leader that is THE KEY. or in another word: COMPETENCE AND INTEGRITY.

[@Utube1024]

My choice goes to Eric Li. His argument is more realistic and coherent.

[@smartviewer7323]

Mr Li is a excellent representative of young Chinese generation

[@user-dh3qo8ge7n]

Or the mouthpiece of ccp

[@1tan269]

@@user-dh3qo8ge7n yeah yeah yeah everything a Chinese person said is a propaganda to you we all get it

[@user-dh3qo8ge7n]

Yuri Wedgwood no I am not

[@user-dh3qo8ge7n]

Yuri Wedgwood no I didn’t say anything. how could I be a mouthpiece if I didn’t even speak anything.

[@JC-sl7bs]

@@user-dh3qo8ge7n Yeh, that thought surely eases your sour soul....

[@joshj6615]

Everything Eric said become true now. Democracy is in trouble

[@blardymunggas6884]

He is a very successful venture capitalist

[@stevenyourke7901]

There’s no democracy in China or in the USA. Just different types of oligarchy. In China, the state controls the private corporations and in the USA the reverse is the case. But there’s no democracy anywhere. The people in China and in the USA are merely so manly cattle on the corporate - state plantation.

[@blardymunggas6884]

@@stevenyourke7901 there is definitely more responsible democracy in China. 100%. The US has democracy on papers only

[@marcellathe9430]

What is the meaning of democracy if the are no peace and peoples are poor.

[@wilsonluytan212]

Eric is superb. The other discussant is another Gordon Chang. Predicting and hoping the collapse of the Chinese system and nation. Both proven as pseudo- prophets.

[@sjaw100]

Eric Li you are the best voice for China. Individually liberty is defined differently to the Chinese people - freedom from gun violence, hunger, insecurity, war, etc.

[@marygarvin1715]

Eric Li need too be more visible on social media and TV he’s so intelligent and informative always out debate his opponents!!

[@BilalAhmed-si9mr]

Eric Lee is a super star . 2020 China’s rise still has no stopping.

[@Ping-pc7uy]

Eric li, came to USA by family reunion immigration, claim super poor and got free tuition, living cost in Stanford, came back to China as a propaganda machine for China system defender, earned lots of money, but never give up his USA nationality, (which in his Chinese speech, a country full of violence, drug,and declining), how ironic it is? *(Parents wrote this stop replying it’s annoying also to that one person replied, I’m Chinese too, I don’t think my parents are judging by background when their chinese)*

[@sankaragarvey5862]

@@Ping-pc7uy isn't amerikkka full of violence ,drugs, and declining? Don't be such a hater that u refuse facts.

[@raphellemar4089]

《Itz Gaming With Cookiez》 This is called freedom of speech. I thought you westerners dig that.

[@gsquyrb]

@@raphellemar4089 they only practice it when it benefits their world view

[@iknowzthiz1483]

Legitimacy like trump losing lol?

[@infinitejustice2991]

I remember when I was watching this debate 8 years ago, I really wanted to aside with Eric Li at the time, but I did have my doubts. Today, 8 years after, China's political system has dwarfed the western neoliberal systems in every aspect. I'm really glad that China has ditched the western teaching of political reforms and focused on working on the improvement of its own system which has brought China's development to where it is today. Congrats to Chinese people.

[@susans4036]

I love watching this in hindsight. Now, 6 years later, China is still standing, and I would argue in no danger of collapsing anytime soon. My god, was Eric spot on or what? What a sharp mind! Minxin Pei? Pathetic.

[@wodemoshou]

7 years later China is still doing fine

[@user-hr6tb9fh8k]

CHina lives with its philosophy for over 5000 years. 6 years is nothing for China, but long enough to slap some people's face very hard

[@slavish_superiority]

打脸了吧

[@sankarhaldar4887]

Eric Li is simply BRILLIANT

[@sankarhaldar4887]

But 2022 China makes Mr Pei arguments moot

[@rayjrh2850]

This moderator is fabulous. Surprisingly this guy has no bias at all! the way he is coordinating, asking, summarizing questions was absolutely objective, rather than implying or suggesting in any harsh tone with bias. Especially his unique ending vote. This is the way where the real rational ppl can communicate their ideas with each other, just like the scientists discuss an academic topic, they use numbers, stats, facts , not presumptions, speculations or stereotypings

[@DD-wx4jc]

Everyone has a bias, including him. He dosnt show it as a moderator because he is a professional.

[@jenniferariesta6635]

@@DD-wx4jc true, it’s possible to not let bias cloud your action

[@user-hr6tb9fh8k]

He is great at doing his job!

[@kevinlee5857]

In China, if you want to be promoted, you don't just need votes and brag about what you can do for voters, but actually make achievements in your current position

[@greentea8852]

100% agree, it‘s very rare to find this kind of moderator these days

[@MrBlinder514]

Those oversea Chinese who lost in touch with the development in China always have such wishful thinking as this is the way to make them feel better about their choice.

[@itloads]

They choice life over genocide.

[@talkfacts100]

@@itloads where is your proof?

[@itloads]

​@@talkfacts100 Mao didn't murder +60million of his own people? Mao didn't instigate the Korean War? Xi Jinping hasn't locked-up 3 million Uyghurs as of today?

[@itloads]

@@talkfacts100 mate couldn't even bother to read your dribble

[@hl8684]

@@talkfacts100 Maoism doesn't kill people, people kill people. (of course it's a joke)

[@AbdunK99]

Wow, man. That Chinese advocate is so brilliant and insightful, I am very impressed.

[@iriszhang4563]

Eric Li❤

[@cityhunter2006]

Eric is so sharp, logical and persuasive. He used facts and clear logic to support his opinion based on objective observations, and his conclusion is insightful and to the point. Minxin has mistaken phenomenon of the surface as the root of a problem. Minxin's perspective is so narrowly restricted that he could not see anything beyond a tree or two, nor to mention the forest. He could not understand history and development. It's so shameful that people like Minxin Pei is regarded as the expert of China, but in fact he has no idea of the truth. Pei earned his title and recognition not because of his talent and knowledge, but because the west wants it so as a weapon to disrupt the east. Shameful on him.

[@jameswkyip]

You are spot on. Pei is a useful idoit. How the hell did he get his title. Really beats me. Pei doesn't care about results, only postulates n repeat lies of msm. What a joker

[@inkbold8511]

This pei guy is just another copy of Gordon Chang just a shill of US propaganda

[@peternjoyce]

And the likes of Yasheng Huang of MIT. He predicted that India would have a bigger economy than China about 20 years ago because India is biggest democratic country in the world. And one party system of China will kill economic growth.

[@dengist8172]

If only Eric would quit his investment job to write books, Minxin would be out of a job.

[@lemistshu]

I doubt that. The vast majority of people like to read what they agree actually.

[@iriszhang4563]

Eric has just wrote a book and published in 2023 Oct, Party Life: Chinese Government and the World Beyond Liberalism

[@zetingliu]

After 7 years since the original session, I think Minxin Pei is totally defeated by the fact of today - what China grows into and how robust Chinese economy and political system are now

[@blardymunggas6884]

Many westerners are harping about freedom of speech but do not realized they really don’t have one. A bad comment on yt is taken down all the time for example. The west don’t understand how the chinese view the ccp and why are platforms like FB or YT are banned. Most chinese view their ccp gov as their father or head of the family by heart due to recent successful track record. Regarding the ban of FB or YT, as I mentioned above, they can control what they want you to see which is dangerous for any country. No difference to why so many countries ban porns or etc. If a platform that can be used by the US to brainwash their people, why would any country allow it? Freedom comes with responsibility. Do you have the freedom to kill? Same thing

[@alfeeman]

He might say there is still a few years before his predicted collpase

[@pauloferreira7543]

@@blardymunggas6884 In China for your comments all have the same view, you forget that isnt true. In the west you can have comunist, liberals, democrats etc, in the same countries (becausa everyone of us have diferent values and beliefs) that exist in china the same way... China tradition in confucionism of course demand an "mandate from the heaven" that envolve all the empire of the midle, but inspite of that tradition in 1917 Sun Yat Sen fullfill a break in that tradition, and for what, for Liberal Universal values (they went to every western country demand the suport against their emperor, to fight for Universal Liberal Values). Even if those values were break by comunist, they still live in the people, the people didnt became all again the same as before 1917, the only thing that keep people apart that individual values is the power of CCP nothing else. If im wrong Tawian should remain as an dictatorship, but it didnt people, when they were call to decide decide for democracy. And for democracy people tend to be confused for direct democracy, or representative democracy. But the main slander is that democracy is the rule of the stupid people. That is just nonsense, nowdays we depend from each other more than ever, we only have one job, but all our live and way of living depend on thousands of other workers, if that chain of workers stop, millions would died, because of hunger, in floods, in fire... So right now we have the most skillfull population, and we still ear the slander that democracy isnt right because depend on ingnorants... that is just ingnorance from the ones who claim that.

[@blardymunggas6884]

@@pauloferreira7543 Fake democracy sucks. America has fake democracy. I have been to China and if you have a democratic checklist with you, China has more ticks on it than America. That is because modern China adopted a complex meritocratic system where only the best trialled over a few decades get the highest position to govern their country. In the west however, only the person with the loudest mouth gets elected. Elect and regret and repeat seems to be a norm with the western democratic political system. Those in power will get one shot of their lifetime to steal as much as possible before their term ends for good. No brainer

[@pauloferreira7543]

@@blardymunggas6884 If its so brilliant, why they dont let people chose?

[@krzysztofdanel4475]

2021 ....and it is very hard to listen Mr Pei ,He can only in USA become professor and call himself.... intellectual. Mr Li 👍 100% on target with every answer .

[@tobylee6456]

Eric Li's perspective of viewing broad subject is impressive and inspiring. His horizontal and vertical angles of examining and judging phenomena is a good lecture and a revolutionary thinking for me. Thank you Mr Li.

[@Idk-cb5qg]

Dr Li*

[@simben4435]

I came back to watch this debate held in 2012. Eric li is correct. Democracy is in trouble while China is still rising

[@suratpongpipatpanich5627]

I quite disagree with Minxin Pei that, when the per capita income rises to a level, the political system in China would change to a multi party format otherwise a political crisis might happen. The way he think is too much influenced by western ideas.

[@joellis5915]

Western breeded and cultivated Pawns speaking the West propaganda language, try to change China's policy to West defected so called "Democracy" is a day dream, that US/The West tries to destroy China. Chinese woke up and see the ugly faccs of the Wests, and not buy-in the scheme that US/The West sales to China any more by any defected products. Period.

[@suratpongpipatpanich5627]

@@joellis5915 Different ways to deal with the pandemic crisis in the two countries with outcomes dramatically different between them have been an excellent proof whose system is superior, so many years arguing back and forth on which system works better. After clearing out this pandemic, China will make a tremendous progress by complementing the well established BRI scheme with the digital yuan already launched out along BRI routes. I can't imagine how influential this country will become before the celebration in 2049 for the 100th anniversary of PRC. Long long live China, the motherland of my ancestors.

[@alexp2019]

chly coh lol does the western copy China or China is copying western? It’s so unclear to talk about it because you use double standards. Just like amazon to Alibaba, Alipay to Apple Pay, Is there any one popped out to say these western copied from China? Eric li seems copy your idea because he use your idea to persuade you, that’s way difficult compared to using one idea to cover another idea

[@joellis5915]

@@suratpongpipatpanich5627 common ground of recognization are the same.

[@rickm4054]

@@suratpongpipatpanich5627 I kind of disagree with you, although I am Chinese as well. Different political systems have different cons and pros. What we can conclude from this pandemic crisis is our system acts quicker and more efficiently in response to an emergency like this. However, we should see our problems and relentlessly fix them. I really hope our uprise will have more and more positive impacts on other countries so we could make this planet better.

[@PatrickPascolo]

It's fantastic because Eric Li speaks about facts, instead, Minxin Pei speaks about ideologies. But it's well known worldwide that Democracies keep surviving just with theoretical promises.

[@abdeenn3]

Eric Li has won the debate even before it starts.

[@rockyroc9155]

The whole argument ended when Eric said its like Asking apple to make blackberries. :D

[@ManMan-bm6fs]

Minxin Pei has a very naive view of democracy. He has a religious devotion to democracy, which he simply does not understand. He seems to believe that the casting of a ballot is sacred and will solve the world's problems. He cannot see that the people who cast the ballot are not really free. The vast (I would venture 99%) of those who cast a ballot for a national leader in any coutnry, do not have a sufficient understanding of the stakes or the true ability of the candidates. They know only what they see in the media. And corporations control the media. This is why nothing changes in the US in spite of the constant rotation of leaders. This is the fundamental flaw in democracy but no one -- not one person -- acknowledges this. Democracy has become a religion.

[@j.f.a.l3715]

Wonderful comment. Actually there are plenty of American scholars pointing this out Economist Jeffery Sachs and philosopher Noam Chomsky wrote extensively on the flaw of the system. But alas, they are labeled anti-America and no media wants to invite them to talk to the mass.

[@yananneteoh9818]

Pei is Taiwanese. He's naive or a rather, dishonestz..

[@whitesalmon0925]

what I learn from this Video is, Eric is the only guy that holds the pager and analyzes the evidence. Minxin, not so much... and in 2021.. wow!! the monumental disaster has proven Eric's thinking process to be incredibly accurate!!

[@user-hr6tb9fh8k]

there is a big group of them in China, helping us moving forward

[@cenaloh4714]

Watching this from six years later 🙂 Minxin pei clearly doesn't have any clue what he's talking about...

[@fannybirot2362]

Eric rocks! 9 years later, only to prove he was so so so right!

[@taolitang8403]

Eric rocks! A genius, a legend, brilliant scholar and National Treasure of China!

[@josechong8207]

Indeed he does... He has demonstrated time and again the brilliance of his arguments.

[@adamng7526]

A wise man

[@Whitfield369]

@@josechong8207 It helps the facts were on his side, and not being dogmatic as the other guy.

[@eymeeraosaka2954]

Prof Minxin Pei reminds me of Gordan Chang. He wrote the book "The Coming Collapse of China" in 2001. Today, 20 years later, China is still riding high. This debate was held in 2014. Fast forward we are now in 2021 and the China economy is still very strong compare to the rest of the world. Seems to me Prof Minxin Pei prediction is completely out though...

[@tyh9206]

Gordon and Minxin have both lost touch with the reality, maybe they were not able to visit China for the past years. They have positioned on the opposing side of the chinese Givernment for some reason…

[@streetcar6080]

Totally different people. Gordan Chang is an idiot and a fool. Pei Minxin's predictions have proven to be correct.

[@NorCalMoDo]

Remember Eric was saying "let's put down the money"? Minxin dared only to say "lots of people in the room". .... well, even more on the internet....

[@bihailantian929]

The debate was held in 2012, but posted here on 2014.

[@alaltest9319]

Gordon and Minxin make a lot of money with china collapse stories. western peoples love it.

[@1tan269]

looking at this from 2020, you tell me who is more accurate in their prediction about the future

[@JC-sl7bs]

Certainly, not Pei

[@horley88]

Without a doubt Eric Li and he is not only a capable venture capitalist but an incredible futurist confirmed

[@labanyu]

1 Tan Minxin Pei has been singing the same song for 30 years. He never changes his tune. He has got to be a CCP plant. To fool gullible Americans. There’s no other explanation.

[@MegaSuehan]

@@labanyu Like Gordon Chang?

[@MegaSuehan]

My bet is on Eric Lee.

[@fannybirot2362]

Just to tell Pei, many foreigners living in China want to apply for Chinese passports, it's just that China is making it very very difficult. And me, with my french kids, are considering to go back to China for university education😃😃😃

[@zyang03]

Was Pei Minxin's tenure granted by NED? I feel sorry for his academic competence.

[@voiceofchina1788]

@Gary M lots of pc, even doubts the legitimacy of a 70 yo China

[@regnyly3163]

Any young Chinese college student can debate him easily. I cannot even consider his words as “debates”.

[@leesgtk8969]

Exactly, he's gotten worse and worse. Just predicting negative guesses, nonsense, basically

[@wanderfa9390]

@Alex H 66hhh6

[@adamng7526]

Pei is American nationality and I believe that’s one of the reasons why he was short sighted and narrow minded, he was not involved and experienced the changes in China in recent years and he was still wearing a color glasses when talking about China.

[@ManMan-bm6fs]

Eric Li ran rings around the other guy. Li is simply more well informed and intelligent. And now in 2021 the results are clear.

[@labanyu]

The most interesting part of this discussion after 8 years is on the effect of the internet on China. They should have talked about the effect of the internet on liberal democracies as well. The internet has solidified China’s government and has destroyed political discourse in the West. Wow... who could have known? ... actually, Eric Li appeared to have known. Speech is act and has caused damage since time immemorial... Wow... he saw it all then.

[@terenceshared9040]

Underrated comment here. The internet is a huge source of misinformation that is leading to conspiracy theories and contributed to the attacks on the US capitol. It's also a medium used to organize violent riots. Not saying it should be censored, but it is a double edged sword.

[@user-hr6tb9fh8k]

You should see it from WW2, but the west chose to close their eyes

[@ClaudiaMitchell-jn7fw]

Fake News.

[@jackoneill28]

​@@terenceshared9040Well, it is censored in the West as well. Now more than ever.

[@hhsim6983]

Today after 9 years, the economic is still growing. The fall of one party system and transform into democracy system has not taken place as predicted by Pei. That shows that Eric is the most far sight and has a full understanding and confident in China system.

[@raymondfoo6167]

Eric was right all along. Keep up the great work..

[@tabarnak2622]

Lol can we have a part two? Would really enjoy what the two would say now

[@inkbold8511]

I wish they do a follow up

[@gantamad6656]

Funny. Minxin Pei should watch this again in 2020 now

[@cjoe6908]

He would be surprised by what he had said.

[@lemistshu]

He is not interested in the past, but only in the future. He would not look at his track record.

[@leesgtk8969]

Pei Minxin, if I'm not mistaken, I've read several articles written by him which has recently (2021) become even more distorted and delusional, going near the levels of Gordon Chang soon.

[@cjoe6908]

@@lemistshu A wished-for future only in his own mind

[@neuralvibes]

​@@leesgtk8969 Wow, that is sad... I watched a video on C-SPAN recorded way back in 2001 where Gordon Chang presented his then brand new (but today infamous and discredited) book on the "coming collapse" of China and Pei was tasked to critique his book after the speech. Pei actually roasted Gordon Chang's prediction in his critique, which made me respect him as I was fully aware of his political biases against the CPC. Back then, he did not let his political biases or wishful thinking distort completely his professional opinion. Sad to hear that he's now joined Gordon Chang in the loony bin...

[@black_eagle]

Eric Li is brilliant; he shreds the delusions of the democracy idolators with cold, hard facts.

[@darkdefender6384]

Man I wish presidential debates could be 1/2 as professional as this talk was!

[@user-hr6tb9fh8k]

audience not smart enough to take this lol

[@michaelding5970]

Watching this from 2021, you can see how wrong that Pei was. I've met many booksmarts like Pei, all they know is what described in the textbook without really understanding them. I trust more on people like Eric, who are in the trenches and are closer to reality. Democracy and freedom of speech are almost like a religion for most Americans, I don't know how many people in the audience understood Eric's arguments.

[@regnyly3163]

I doubt their intellectual levels.

[@frankhill605]

@@regnyly3163 I think only the guy in the audience who's the venture capitalist understood.

[@user-hr6tb9fh8k]

'shut the ** up, we are talking about the freedom of speech' lol

[@inkbold8511]

Lmao the irony

[@ouchh35]

I’ve been thinking the same. Democracy is the new religion for the west and its missionaries are out there spreading it similar to hundreds of years ago. That dogmatic view blinds an honest understanding of governance

[@ybi2610]

the family of the middle guy is badly treated in the cultural revolution. As a Chinese, I really thank him for keep telling US that China is going to collapse, China should give him of a ton weight medal.

[@regnyly3163]

His experience is unfortunate. But it doesn’t make his point valid. Very poor debates from him.

[@user-hr6tb9fh8k]

@@regnyly3163 yeah he fails in early and late life. what a poor guy.

[@daiseritz4774]

I've not seen a better debater than Eric Li.. n he is calm n poised

[@jenniferariesta6635]

Also how is it that the Chinese businessman more eloquent in English than the professor?

[@kamikaze1888]

@@jenniferariesta6635 to be a 'professor' in topics regarding China in US universities, the main criteria is how anti-China that person is. As long as they show enough hatred towards China, fame and money shall come along.

[@yananneteoh9818]

I really find the old prof. 's arguments whimsical and biased.

[@bihailantian929]

​@@jenniferariesta6635The businessman got his college education in the US, and the professor got his graduate education in the US. The earlier the better for a none-native language.

[@jaybleu888]

Minxin Pei is the softer version of Gordon Chang, both had been campaigning the idea that China would fall soon. My money's on Eric Li.

[@brandonteohcheowjeen7289]

Eric view stand out through time!

[@samliew6610]

PEI truly do not know China.

[@Mmmmmmmwwww]

Good debate, modern China 's Eric Li vs. old China' s Pei. One is facts based, sharp, open-minded, while the other is clearly the contrary. Eric won greatly.

[@ruthwanjiru8137]

Eric has foresight. Democracy has failed everywhere including Africa, freedom to vote "mediocre leaders" is an illusion when it cannot deliver outcomes. Meritocracy has the best chance of growth and adaptability. Africa should start seeking to learn from the Chinese model and adapt to its own unique realities.

[@DisobedientSpaceWhale]

Eric Li literally said the Chinese model cannot be copied by any country anywhere else lol

[@ruthwanjiru8137]

@@DisobedientSpaceWhale 😅 he is being modest...the best way to teach is not to force others to learn from you but to let others see the need to learn from you. "Wise people learn from experience, the wisest learn from the experience of others" that is an African Proverb.

[@horridohobbies]

Minxin Pei seems to suggest that voting in a government is the only way it can achieve legitimacy. However, I believe a government can be legitimate when the people accept it willingly and support it wholeheartedly, as the Chinese do. And why not? The government has delivered all the goods...a fantastic economy and quality of life, substantive freedom, social stability, national security, public safety, etc. China's government has given the people the very best 30 years in China's entire history. Why should they want change? Minxin's views are heavily predicated on individualism. He doesn't seem to understand that China's culture and history have been steeped in collectivism for over 2,000 years. The good of society outweighs the wants of the individual. This is why Eric Li is absolutely correct when he says that the China model is not exportable. China is a nation unique among all nations. This is also why one of the questioners is wrong when he says that once a country reaches a middle class level, the people clamour for democracy. He disregards the fundamental nature of China. Though as I said in a previous comment, China may transition to a more democratic state *when she is good and ready* .

[@kylepuppy]

It's interesting that even if I was a deaf and pick a winner from body language, facial expressions only, I would have picked Eric.

[@paulli1535]

I think the most important question one should ask is: is election the best way to select capable leaders? If it is, why corporations don't use election to select CEOs and other leaders.

[@aagung46agmail]

Because corporation is a private sector, own by private, individual, and stockholder/investors. Their governance is dictator - make profit, operate how they like.

[@TheTariqibnziyad]

Paul Li because elections are meant to elect political leaders who will have powers, CEO is something private companies do, they dont influence you you can quit and change your company, while for the state you cant just leave so you have a say on who is going to be a ruler.

[@tripontube365]

a super lack of intelligent question , because the corporations give you money for live but government you have to give your money to them so you should choose the right and satisfying leader for you and your live. government is your employee

[@alloomis1635]

capable leaders should be groomed through education and promotion through the ranks of the public service. they should work under the control of the electorate, expressed through referendum and initiative. democracy, in short. but politics is the struggle for power, not an intellectual exercise in vireo-gaming. the welfare of the nation is always secondary to the prosperity of the ruling elite, whether one, one hunderd or 1%. at times, rule is simply ego-gratification for a general, or a plutocrat. so your question is in a sense, 'unreal.' the sad truth is that homo sapiens is nowhere a society of equals, although the swiss could at least claim a reasonable approximation of democracy. the rest of us, are elite and cattle.

[@Alfaspring]

You have a great comment Paul Li

[@amylin5487]

Awesomeful! Eric! Please accept my respect!

[@chamankhan7396]

Eric is so great I love him

[@saraishinisayoutubetroll3720]

to understand china people should try to understand china and not look at a western perspective.

[@hjuniform]

Looking back from 2019 on what Pei said, he is like a joke: completely out of touch of the reality, have no idea of how CCP works, and over-idealistic.

[@sherashera7791]

china just celebrated 70th anniversary, what the fuck is that fake chinese talking about

[@mmokwmmokw1280]

China retains leadership for long term goals and objectives. The USA plans for the next elections. The representative are reactive to the social services, While the Chinese are proactive.

[@htin08]

China needs some people like Pei. If the West believed China is going to collapse, they will leave China alone and China can progress in peace.

[@itloads]

Mate Xi became Emperor for life.

[@user-mn8cx4kp5y]

@@htin08 Jordan Zhang. you can check his work

[@sugardaddy2155]

Mr. Pei hasn't been in China for 30 years, his perception of China is still in 1980s. If one must say that Mr. Pei is an expert of China, then he is an expert of the Red China, not the China today. Multiparty electoral democracy is not the ultimate regime of mankind, and it is not suitable for every country.

[@stevewong1640]

agree

[@ardobobo]

Exactly! He should keeps updating himself, he cant catch up the the speed of China...

[@williamchan4144]

Agree

[@TheTariqibnziyad]

Sugar Daddy then what guarantees my rights ? if i have no say in my countrie's politics ?

[@darrenou7605]

The brightest minds of the country who work their ways up from the bottom of the society.

[@Peter-sj3zi]

The bottom line is: you are free to have your own system, or you have the Western system. The proud Westerners want you to have their system and call you the copycat.

[@davyleisure9469]

Can you even imagine what you are up against if you got a couple of million Li's like that.

[@user-hr6tb9fh8k]

I am not as high, but definitely one in the Li's side. and i know there are many of Li's in China.

[@hey01e5]

it is better to have only one party that represents the vast majority of citizens, than multiple parties that only represent the interests of the ultra-wealthy

[@readie10145]

What the...Are you joking? You might as well work for the private federal reserve against your own people.

[@lepeiyan2341]

Looking back from 2019, I realize that several points that Minxin Pei list out here are going a quite different pattern in this world. Pei's claim is highly questionalble.

[@tharukajayasinghe7958]

This is year 2023. A lot of what Eric said is still valid. Unfortunately, Minxin's dogmatic notion of democracy is under pressure. In sri lanka we have multi parties and we are fucked up🤣🤣

[@Kimmbaap]

The last question by James Fallows is absolutely brilliant, asking who had their opinion changed prior to the talk. It shows that people are not against different forms of governance, they just need to understand that governance is not a free-sized clothing but one that has to be custom tailored.

[@zfs816]

There shall be more realistic men like Eric X Li

[@TheTariqibnziyad]

zf s Li is delusional

[@JC-sl7bs]

@@TheTariqibnziyad Is that all of your wisdom?

[@inkbold8511]

Remember Eric was debating them when Harvard university study hasn't been release yet, cause the recent release by Harvard shows 95% of Chinese approves of cpc party. Meanwhile Harvard also release a similar study that showed US gov only have 33% from its citizens. Just shows the dramatic difference.

[@NoreenHoltzen]

Much respect from Australia to China successfully fending of western imperialism, a profoundly difficult achievement. Look at the result of the other major regions that failed in this regard (Africa, India, even aboriginal Australia, etc). Respect to Mao and vast bulk of the ordinary population for protecting China from outside interference. Mao also did the forgotten but crucial work of rural health development programmes saving ~100 million lives, increasing life expectance from 45 to 70, literacy from 15% to 70%, and the crucial agricultural reforms and rural health programmes that set the conditions to make the industrialisation that followed being possible.

[@orchidoutdoor648]

8 years later, Eric proved he is the real expert, and the other "expert" who would like to give "insight" about China, told a very good joke.

[@calvyncraven1141]

10 years later. This was held in 2012

[@orchidoutdoor648]

@@calvyncraven1141 Thank you for pointing that out.

[@pauloroberto7875]

It's so funny to watch these videos about China failing in 2020. How they must feel? Why not a new debate today and confront them with their predictions?

[@lvcnlvcn5534]

Pei will sh..t in his pants.

[@user-hr6tb9fh8k]

@@lvcnlvcn5534 lol he would blame China too for his bad stomach

[@tongfattho6913]

Watched this almost 10 years later and China is moving closer to Eric's prediction.

[@kevingarlick4617]

Wow this was 7 years ago, dude nailed it. Go China!

[@talk1105]

Berkeley certainly beats Harvard

[@abdeenn3]

Standford, MA

[@interalia_Y]

It’s so interesting to watch this at the end of 2021, Eric’s arguments hold true till now whilst Pei has been slapped by the facts on the face for so many past occasions. I guess the only thing safe to say now is that history will not be ending on the US or western style of systems and institutions, which, in a way, proves what Eric has said about how a country should choose and modify its own system and copycats will never succeed.

[@wodemoshou]

How can Pei says there is no objective criteria when a official is promoted in China? The criteria’s are way higher and harder than any other country could imagine

[@sunrisingzoo9192]

A session from the 2012 Aspen Ideas festival. 8 years late, corruption problems have been mostly solved esp in eastern china, very good progress.

[@suratpongpipatpanich5627]

Eric Li breeds out a new paradigm in political science whereas a conventional idea tends to dichotomize democracy and dictatorship.

[@chenchen6841]

This is the year 2023 11years since this session in 2012, and I look forward to the follow-up session with the same 2 speakers. The world has changed a lot in the past 10 years, and Eric's perspective on China has proven still valid. Thank you!

[@etlay5684]

Watching this in 2022 and how Eric was so spot on. Our election is coming soon here in Australia, not sure who to elect..Coke or Pepsi? My friends said they are going to vote for the more good looking one...Ahh..this is democracy, how useful.

[@jackoh5134]

Like many people of his generation, Minxin Pei grow up in a time that China was extremely poor and weak. So its understandable that he has been on his knees worshiping Western Democracy like a religion. Now in late 2021, almost 10 years past, looking forward to hear from him in a few years reflecting on his predictions he has made in 2012.

[@hkfelinefriend2365]

democracy sounds good on the surface. however, no one can win elections without some money men behind them unless he himself is super rich. therefore, it is quite easy to figure out whose interest the elected gov will try to protect first. during 2008 - 2009 financial crisis, tax payer's money was used to bail out wall street while the ordinary people who lost their jobs and houses are left to fend for themselves.

[@herta3286]

Its now 2022, I see China is still rising economically and I still see China is still politically strong

[@rosyyumnam5458]

Eric Li seems a little bored here, mostly throwing one liners and clearly not giving his best... But he still won the debate for me

[@johnnyw6467]

Probably been repeating the same thing over and over again

[@mohmeegaik6686]

Minxin pei is no match for Eric Li . PERIOD.

[@tbseow344]

Moderator should give a copy of this debate to Pei now in Y2020. Let him see what a fool he has been.

[@answerhan]

It is 2020 now, not too much time left for Pei.

[@P1G5CanFly2]

Almost 10 years later. Fact check again, and it is amazing how far off was Pei.

[@horley88]

Eric Li an incredible futurist, another feather in the cap added to his great resume

[@duinay3]

This was 7 years ago but Eric Li is completely right

[@goodfriend6170]

What is Pei talking about? He is in denial! Please listen to speeches and reads books by Kishore Mahbubani is a Distinguished Fellow at the Asia Research Institute (ARI), National University of Singapore (NUS).

[@binlian4014]

I don't understand why they invite Pei...He seems living in his own universe....

[@georgemarsh9639]

May be there is a reason. This one view from mainland China itself: 改革的体制对象进行这样的区分，是非常必要的。上轮改革前的旧体制，以再分配经济和权力集中为特点。但经过30多年的演进，我们所面对的已经不是这个体制的原型，而是这个体制在新的环境中的变种。目前这轮改革的体制对象，应当是这个权贵体制因素及其弊政。这样界定本轮改革的体制对象， 第一，这个权贵体制因素及其弊政，是目前中国社会种种问题和弊端的根源。前一段时间我讲"弊政"造成的四大灾难，即活力下降，两极分化，法治倒退，社会溃败，生态灾难。这些灾难就是由这个权贵体制因素造成的。在过去的十几年中，真正意义上的的改革已经陷入停滞状态，而旨在掠夺民脂民膏的伪改革却层出不穷。这时的改革实际上已经开始成为财富掠夺的战争。于是，社会中贪腐横行，贫富差距不断拉大，社会矛盾激化，各种社会乱象迭出。为了缓和社会不断加剧的紧张状态，只能一方面走火入魔式地发展经济，另一方面打压民众权利，进行所谓维稳。今天的这场改革，应当成为对这种弊政的系统清理。这些问题都是老百姓有着切肤之痛的问题

[@123zhc]

watching this in 2021. Eric won.

[@MegaSuehan]

There is no one system suits all. Every country needs to find and adapt a system to suit one's country.

[@urbandweller]

Mr. Pei looks hopeless in this discussion. Perhaps because Li is a practitioner while Pei is theoretician. Problem is Li's ideas have a concrete factual base. Pei's don't. Li wins, Pei loses.

[@henfan6158]

Mr. Pei seems to be a little out of touch with reality. The example of Chinese coming to US was one indication. Eric should have reminded him that many many more Mexicans are coming to US than Chinese. So, what does Democracy have to do with it? By the way, the comments critical of Pei have been DELETED from here!

[@urbandweller]

hen fan This seems to be common with most democracy in China advocates. Simply because they rely too much on a priori arguments and not actual facts and evidence. I suppose because there isn't much evidence favoring their a priori position.

[@xinyes1742]

urban dweller The only thing hopeless is your own future. If you are not living in China and raise your children there in the future, dont pretend you are a CCP defender.

[@urbandweller]

So typical of the justice warriors: ad hominem attacks on the person rather than the argument that has been said.

[@Danskadreng]

You need democracy to prevent corruption. You need meritocracy and aristocracy to get the best possible outcome. All these three would make up for an excellent form of government, if constructed well.

[@albertchow4333]

Eric well done. We fully support you. 为祖国和人民加油 💪👍🏻✌🏻

[@horridohobbies]

Minxin Pei says that liberal democracy has been the trend over the past 40 years. This does not, however, imply any kind of superiority in democracy. It simply implies that *individualism* has gained primacy over *collectivism* in recent times. Human beings by nature resist being controlled by others and *selfishness* is a strong human characteristic. We can see how human nature has failed societies in the wake of COVID-19. Individualism and selfishness have led to COVID disasters in America, Brazil, India, Mexico, UK, Italy, France, Spain, etc. Electoral democracies have failed in other respects. Political leaders are chosen on the basis of *popularity* rather than *meritocracy* . Thus, we have incompetent and inexperienced leaders like Donald Trump, Boris Johnson, Justin Trudeau, Emmanuel Macron, etc. In stark contrast, Chinese leaders have to go through a rigorous process of education and practical experience that can last decades! With regards to corruption, Xi Jinping has "cleaned house" quite well and greatly reduced corruption in the Chinese system. In the Western world, corruption is systemic and often underestimated, which is why liberal democracies don't appear to be corrupt. But the fact is, corruption is built into democratic systems in the form of political donations. Money from rich corporations and special interest groups distort the electoral process. Most democratic nations are essentially oligarchies. Aren't oligarchies a form of autocracy?

[@BlackwaterEl1te]

Dam looking this in 2019, that guy in the middle was so wrong. Maybe i should rewatch this again in 2025 or 2030.

[@learning2800]

You are so right, it is most interesting to rewatch and listen again after some time past, the idiot remain an idiot such as Pei, the trash from Shanghai

[@itloads]

Xi made himself Emperor for life....

[@BlackwaterEl1te]

@@itloads Why would i care its not my problem, that's a chinese people thing to decide. If he is a incompetent leader, im sure the party will find a way to dispose of him.