China: Friend or Foe?

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Is China, with its unfair trade policies and shameless theft of intellectual property, an enemy that needs to be reined in? Or is it in the West’s best interests to view China as a strategic partner and aim for mutual respect and cooperation?
We were joined by Keyu Jin, Professor of Economics at LSE; Sir Malcolm Rifkind, politician and former cabinet minister; and Martin Wolf, Chief Economics Commentator at the FT
The event was chaired by BBC News Presenter and the BBC’s first China Editor, Carrie Gracie.

[Intelligence Squared]

Reflecting on this debate in 2020, has your opinion on China changed?

[PikeSlayerTv.]

They have showed there true colours and intensions......

[Jonas]

Calling a regime that prosecute political dissidents, build concentration camps for Uigurs and is involved in forced organ harvesting "a friend"? Seems like fifty percent of the audience are clueless. A bit embarrassing for a debate calling itself intelligence squared.

[Real Highman]

@Jonas Full of nonsense. Come to China and see

[Jonas]

@Real Highman you can watch the oppression in action in Hong Kong on any news channel. I've been to China, seen the facade, but don't dare going back. There's no rule of law and critics seem to "dissappear" quite often.

[Real Highman]

@Jonas Dear Jonas, As a Chinese who is studying in Europe currently, I am thinking everyday that why a lot people have the same image towards China as you have, even though China has never hurt anyone, after all, the only answer is because US, the super power has a bad history with CCP ever since the lost of Chiang kai-shek and north korea war. But we will see this change in 10 years, because US is falling and European who are more rational will reconsider actually Chinese are much more reliable and trustworthy. This is a historical inevitability, no doubt.

[Hugh213]

This was a great discussion. Intellegent, well balanced, critical thoughts. Bravo to all participants. We need more civil discussions involving real thinkers and not pundits hawking non-relevant gibberish.

[James Rowlands]

I'm halfway through, and getting lectured to about China's "rule by law", which he claims harms Muslims in Xinjiang, when the government he was Secretary of State for Defence participated in illegally bombing Iraqis. And was followed by another British government that invaded and interfered in mutliple Muslim majority countries, completely illegally. So I hesitate to agree with your statement that all of the participants were well balanced.

[VARIVA VARIVA]

Mr. Wolf and Ms. Jin made some very compelling observations. The host did a great job keeping the discussions fair and balanced.

[L Singh]

"I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole… we had entire training courses." This is a line from a speech made by U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo in Texas. Following a burst of laughter from the audience as a response to that line, Pompeo hastened to add: "It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment."

[J C]

That reflects true American value. Just win, regardless.....

[Houshang Semino]

Talking like that has a reason the person who talks like that does it to exercise and enjoy his domination.

[Don Cohen]

@Houshang Semino

[Gabriel Caleb]

Really ... Pretty bold

[2smoulder]

Sir Malcolm Rifkind always speaks as if he is 100% correct on every issue, which has always given me concern because he is often a stranger to the truth. Of course, there are issues with firms in China being subject to state control, which is also the case on a different level in most other countries, particularly the US. Rifkind also skirts around the problem that the UK is often subservient to the US in economic policy, investment etc. It is refreshing that Professor

[John M]

I remember Rifkind years ago when he used his position to block some development where he lived. He lived if I remember in a little village in Cumbria and was minister of planning and while giving the go ahead for all sorts of controversial planned applications he blocked one that affected where he lived. That is the sort of person they have on these debates

[Hunter Auckland]

Watched only nearly half so far, have to say this is great dialogues to hear. Such clear and reasonable debates. The hostess interacted and managed the whole flow professionally, asking so much valid questions. Should have more of these talks often. Decent demonstrations and allowing everyone to speech properly, without any interruptions like some of the BBC interviews. So good. 👍 But I do get the point that western powers do fare that China is this new guy came to the neighbourhood with a rather bigger build, muscly, serious, so that this guy must be dangerous! Totally get it.

[Video Czar]

China is not a new guy. They have always been a world power except for the last 230 years or so.

[Chavdar Naidenov]

The very question discussed is it's own answer. A partner that deliberates aloud on whether it's more profitable to be your friend or enemy, cannot be a friend. This holds not only for people, but for nations. I even begin to wonder, how much the USA can trust a partner such as the UK.

[Canary Canary]

Countries do not have friends - they have interests.

[kiwitrainguy]

"how much the USA can trust a partner such as the UK" - ...or the other way 'round...

[Tom Kelly]

It is so interesting to hear westerners like myself talk about China. The part I find most fascinating is that China is considered to be a country while its population is larger then that of all western countries combined! Personally I am friends with many chinese people, I disagree with the actions of many other Chinese people and mainly I have no clue what to think of such a large and very very diverse group of people who live so far away and speak and entirely different language then me without using letters. I feel very grateful to the nameless chinese people that have made my life much much easier because they provided so many fine goods at such low prices. I am glad to hear that their society is on an upswing after being in tatters for so long. I am so glad that they are bringing so many of us up with them

[Alan Friesen]

China is an empire, as are the United States and Russia.

[ivan tsl]

Alan Friesen Yes, China is an empire and it has been for thousands of years. It’s coming back stronger than before, so deal with it.

[Alan Friesen]

@ivan tsl I'm totally cool with it. I'm an imperialist by nature. What I don't care for is nationalism.

[Gaurav Kaushal]

@ivan tsl i thought China is a developing country, is it not!

[will engel]

amannisa oigur how can you detain 5 million or just half million Uyghurs? feed and house them. just because the offshoot of taxpayers fund NED spouted such nonsense at the UN? use your brain or let it rot.

[Ben Hui]

This is a very constructive dialogue model for people to talk to each other, it would be naive to think and speak for oneself, just as much so, to think there is a universal perfect solution/route to fix it all in one. The panelists are great, and so are the audience and host.

[吳小芳]

C.C.P country

[Jerry Loo]

After one long year as we come back to this program, its so interesting to note the short-sightedness of some politicians. In fact its more than that, its simply blind loyalty.

[Emptywis 3]

The most old politicians don’t know better they have lived in a system who dominated the world bij force just like the Roman Empire. The top 5 security agency in the un are the top 5 weapon sellers in the world so they really don’t know better.

[Mary Wrong]

People in China is friend, but the CCP is foe.

[Jerry Loo]

@Mary Wrong You are demolishing the home your friends stay in, how cruel!

[J C]

@Mary Wrong A foe who lifts hundreds of millions of your Chinese friends out of poverty in four decades of economic reform. It must be the most fearful one for you, right?.

[steven tan]

This is a tragic situation. We need the younger generation in the West to get involve with relations with the outside world.Malcolm is 20th century outlook.

[siamcharm]

more like 19th century.

[forexking]

Some people view life as a journey. Some view it as a competition. Some even view it as a torture or punishment. Some as a test. Some a challenge. Some as an opportunity. Then it will decide what they view others as. But losers will usually will view others as an enemy. Foe? What is a foe? What is one's biggest foe?

[Wishful Guy]

The biggest foes of oneself is him n herself.

[Martin Gabel]

It gives me a little hope to see these real experts with a neutral view warning of simplification, demonization and the paranoia of politicians in the US and Europe..

[oligokid]

"I want China to do well, just not as well as us" - Donald Trump. There I just saved you 84 minutes of your life

[Brain Washington]

lol that was the first thing that came to my mind too!

[Ronald McPaul]

Thanks

[Carter Hu]

'Fine, I guess I'll just have to do much better than you' - China

[Le e]

Thank you for saving my time...

[How So]

lol

[Stephen Cotton]

Opening up the financial sector is a good strategy for the Chinese government. It can help spread the risk of the highly leveraged and highly debt burdened sector to the rest of the world. They want the rest of the world to come in and help fix this sector - as Keyu Jin stated. I would stay out of that sector... but there could be some great opportunities there for companies that specialize in that kind of thing.

[RealHistoryPlease]

When I worked in international banking we always took every statistic from China with a pinch, nay a bag of salt. The entrenched corruption and fear of underperforming lead constantly to over-reporting of positive indicaters and under reporting of the negative.

[Amir Khan 168]

While I'm an anglophile and have great admiration of the uk culture, the Brits tend to forget that when Britannia ruled the wave they did far worst atrocities in the world. The way they used their mi6 to remove mossadegh of iran, the way they got Israel to attack Nasser when he nationalized the Suez canal and the way they removed the sultan of Zanzibar to appoint a sultan who was more pro Britain were just a few examples of how Britain is no angel either in geopolitics of the world.

[Amir Khan 168]

Adam LB I do love British culture sans it's imperialistic past. You should also check your grammar.

[Amir Khan 168]

@alison rogerson arabs? Your ignorance is very telling. In the earliest known records, slavery is treated as an established institution. The code of hamurabi (1760 BC), for example, prescribed death for anyone who helped a slave escape or who sheltered a fugitive.The Bible mentions slavery as an established institution. Slavery was practiced in almost every ancient civilization eg in Egypt in pre-Islamic times. It was the prophet Muhammad who encouraged the freeing of slaves. The first muezzin, prayer caller was bilal, a freed slave. Until today a muezzin caller is called bilal, to remember him. It was the British empire and its royal family that flourished through slave trade. If you are to lazy to read I suggest you watch the Netflix documentary series Explained. One particular episode on the Royalty will give you and easy explanation on it.

[Ye Ai]

And a small quote from Encyclopedia Britannica: ¨Foreign traders (primarily British) had been ILLEGALLY exporting opium mainly from India to China since the 18th century... ¨

[kiwitrainguy]

Was it MI6 or the CIA that was instrumental in deposing Mossadegh? Yes, The British Empire practiced slavery until 1830, then they abolished it and compensated the slave owners (not, however, the slaves). They also abolished the Slave Trade and used their Royal Navy ships to make sure no one else participated in it either.

[Theodore Teo]

China is a friend or foe depending how each country wants the relationship to be. Just like everyone of us we cannot be friend with everyone. We all have different values, different culture and different expectations. And in the end to the West it depends on USA.

[R. A.]

It's interesting how Malcolm Rifkind used Japan, South Korea, India and Indonesia. India and Indonesia were colonized. Japan and South Korea were forced to opened up and adopted democracy. Japan was controlled by the US ever since they lost WW2. Korea was ruthlessly divided into North and South after WW2. South Korea received support from the US during the Korea War. If you take these facts into consideration, it's obvious how these countries came to adopt a democracy.

[kiwitrainguy]

What about Taiwan?

[SQ]

@kiwitrainguy what about Taiwan then?

[SQ]

That’s so true. Malcolm is so biased and paranoid. Advancement of a country to him means conquering and colonizing. It’s just so interesting to hear from him talking about Hong Kong. Mind google how UK got Hong Kong in the first place?

[Nat N]

The question is problematic at the outset. Friend or foe are overly simplistic terms. China is not a person, it is an entity to be engaged with, and the real question for China and the West is how to best engage with each other to safeguard their individual interests, without going to war. Just like in business--and really, it all comes down to business--there are no eternal friends or foes. To categorise China as either a friend or a foe...is a childish and naive way of thinking about the relationship between countries.

[I'll Be Back]

Exactly

[Dino Joe]

Isis, an entity to be engaged with: friend or foe?

[Deon Richards]

Thank you for one of the most serious, current and insightful topics with the most well balanced panel in a critical discussion ..... proof that dialogue is key

[Wai yuen LEONG]

I would assume that China is more interested to work with all countries based on "win win" financial situation without poking its nose on other country's internal affairs. I opine that they are strong enough to claim back part the South China Sea under its sovereignty. It applies to Taiwan during the Qing Dynasty who came from Manchuria, seized power in Beijing and North China in 1644 and gradually consolidated their control over the Chinese mainland in .many decades. The defeated Ming Dynasty fled to Taiwan in 1662. The Kangxi emperor had been building up and training an invasion fleet that successfully took the island in 1683 and incorporated it into the Qing Empire. The Spratly Island........the Cairo declaration paved the way for declonisation in Asia, and ensured the return of Japanese occupied territories to China including Taiwan. (part of the story was extracted from SCMP news)

[Guy Webster]

poking its nose all over the world. what are you talking about? From south America to africa they are poking their nose. They have been involved in politics and "investment" control all around the world bruh.

[EmperorCQX]

@Guy Webster nope I suggest you better get more knowledgeable on the topic.

[simply_felix]

Great discussion & extremely well moderated!! two thumbs up!!

[Sam liew]

Every country wants to do well so that their people can have better lives. No country in their right mind should demonize and try to stop such countries from developing and doing well. By selfishly sabotaging is a blatant violation of Human rights itself. As the saying "Don't do to others what you don't want others to do to you" In fact we should encourage and help each other to do better and live a peaceful lives.

[6 9]

I’m chinese and I don’t treat my foreign friends like the way china does to Australia or United States. This way I do not worry about having any enemy, western, foreign or not

[Raul Tiangson]

In China its about loyalty for a country rather than love for a country.

[Bimal Rathnagoda]

I feel like this: China: friend or foe? What is this topic? In fact, this is not a complicated topic but a silly topic because in this century, the whole world is connected because of advancements of technology, so we all have to have an advanced mindset to analyze world issues without creating clashes among nations. We need a peaceful world, so we all need to be friends not foes.

[kolton crane]

Yes we need to be friends in a global world. I think most countries can bury their head in the sand when it comes to human rights or concentration camps. What pisses governments off is when China steals billions in intellectual property. The US spends billions on research and development. Respecting property rights is a key factor when it comes to being friendly and trading.

[AlienEdu]

North Korea Uyghar Muslims Belt and Road Drug War (Fentynal) Huawei 5G Confucius Centers Propaganda Hong Kong and Taiwan Do I need to go on?

[david Simon]

@kolton crane are you sure what are you talking ? Your CEO takes all the profit for their bonuses...pls do some researching

[Thomas Peh]

@AlienEdu ？

[Khan Idrees]

The Chinese paradox is not ideological. It is institutional and economic. Therefore it would not be a USSR to repeat. An insightful debate. Thank you IQ!

[theOverseasJin]

1:09:00 he failed to realize that most of the Asian economies that are developed today were authoritarian during their development stages (Singapore, Taiwan, S. Korea).

[Hector out]

Well lucky they moved to democracy fast or else it would ve been a disaster for them! Look at how authoritarians can do the damage when they over stay and over play. We get Coved19! Why are you still staying in the West if you hate it so much. Ain't you a hypocrite?

[STEX]

@Hector out He didn't say anything negative or remotely displayed any hatred. He was simply stating a fact, which negates your knowledge of how the world works. I understand you might have a lot of frustration in your real life, and you felt you can vent a little on the Internet. Well, I certainly hope you feel a little better after that comment.

[Casimir Kiendl]

What about Japan and Taiwan? No, didn't think so

[Eugene Debbs]

@Casimir Kiendl South Korea only became a democracy in 1987 lol. Till then, it was a dictatorship. Taiwan was also an authoritarian state (KMT dictatorship) till the late 80s. Japan only became a democracy in 1952 and only managed to develop with a ton of US economic aid.

[Michelle Sui]

@Casimir Kiendl Taiwan became democratic in the 90s after it got rich. Singapore has had one party majority for its entire existence.

[Michael T]

Seeing this debate 3 years later with more information. China's market have not opened up and it is strategically open to selected industry for its own purpose. One may say having Tesla there is to help develop the supply chain for the EV industry. Also make it much easier to emulate the latest technical advances there. As far as the external engagement and china giving back from one of the guest. It turned out belt and road has similarities to loan sharking. Among other things.

[Jon Dubai]

I opened a factory in China, and spent six years there living with the locals, and they had incredible freedom in the true sense of the word, they did not live in fear of violence, children played in the street after dark, the factory employed over 100 locals and I have never had such a happy workforce. I also had factories in the UK and the USA. There was a local church that anyone could visit and pray. So when I hear these so called 'experts' waffle on about something they know very little about, they only know what they have read or visited and stayed in hotels. Yes of course China is not perfect, but there again which country is?

[Yong Deng]

@jon Dubai you go ahead and tell the world. Western people only “ know” china by reading some garbages or hear someone said some fake stories. Ridiculous to say the least!

[Mary Wrong]

People in China is friend, but the CCP is foe.

[Pascal Poussin]

FREE JULIAN ASSANGE!!!

[00000000000101010]

lol, haven't been back for a while I see.

[60-second HACKS]

Fantastic result ... well done, Audience. 😂😂😂😂😂 You have more wisdom than avaricious politicians and self-serving academics.

[MIL MAC]

World benefited more from globalization than China did, If you compare the gross global wealth figures. When Mr. Rifkind was leaving Hong Kong for Beijing worried about rule of law and claiming Chinese leaders had no clue about it, did Hong Kong had democracy? Did British allowed any form of public demonstrations, even peaceful ones, in any of its colonies? India, Hong Kong, Kenya, SA had British pinal codes which British used to impose laws to their own advantage on their colonial subjects (just what Mr. Rifkind thought China might do to it’s Hong Kong subjects). I am no fan of China or any other country for that matter but we all should coexist peacefully without threatening or demeaning others. Trump is poisoning humanity in total. Europe should stay away from his rhetorics and maintain healthy relations with other countries particularly China. Britain is left with very little choice unfortunately since Brexit. Trump will make it shine his shoes.

[cutiegammi]

100% agree!

[ViolinPracice]

I think this is the first talk that makes me understand how China could possibly be a threat one day (although it is not I wanted). But yeah, I do not think the western community is acting in a mature way to balance it.

[ViolinPracice]

Especially by comparing us to other small Asian nations :)

[Tian Lin]

Regarding the discussion about open-market, I am pretty sure more Chinese people can name some US, UK, Japan, and Korean brands than most people from Western countries can do for Chinese brand.

[kiwitrainguy]

Most products in the West that are made in China are made for a Western brand. I own many brands of model trains, these brands are German, British and American but are made in China. Is Haier a Chinese brand? My fridge is a Haier and is made in China. Is Bellini a Chinese brand? My dishwasher is a Bellini and is made in China. Is Kensington a Chinese brand? My microwave oven is a Kensington and is made in China.

[Max DC]

South Korea and Taiwan had their greatest economic growth during the rule of their authoritarian governments and their foundation of success in technology were planted during the same time. It's still early days for South Korea, Taiwan and Japan to see the consequences or repercussions of their liberal democracies. But it's safe to bet that all liberal democracies would slowly degenerate over time (possibly a century or two) due to the breakdown of society and family brought by ... some unseen forces (depending on your belief).

[Andy .P]

"it's safe to bet that all liberal democracies would slowly degenerate over time" disagree. Authoritarian states have the shorter life span. Name me a modern authoritarian regime that has lasted as long as the CCP currently have?

[4x4crx]

@Andy .P Cuba is not far behind in terms of years however most of the population is poor (although well educated). Let's see what happens to China when the property bubble bursts

[roger le phoque]

A most interesting discussion on an important topic with three outstanding speakers. On a slightly more parochial level, I once lunched at La Tante Claire, a rather splendid Michelin 3*** French restaurant in London. On the next table, within earshot, sat Sir Malcolm Rifkind. I observed that he and his guest discussed their choice from the menu with an impressive understanding of the finer points of French gastronomy. However, I was somewhat intrigued by his abstemiousness with regard to the matter of wine. He chose to imbibe Perrier water throughout. On reflection, I personally took a degree of solace from the fact that our then Defence Secretary would return to his position in Government well fed but sober.

[dixon pinfold]

I give your comment my 'seal' of approval, M. le Phoque.

[J]

I'm a Hongkonger and I use to be brainwashed into thinking that British rule was a good thing and I was taught to feel more 'special' than those in mainland China. By making an effort to entertain counter narratives, checking sources and for evidence, I have now mostly deprogrammed my automatic hatred or knee jerk reaction towards China. This happened in my early 20s when I begun to realise and acknowledge the fact that under British rule (that is colonisation (psychological as well as physical), exploitation, invasion), we never once had democracy and those that protested were killed, punished or imprisoned. We were also forbidden to live on the peak in our own land reserved only for Westerners which many accepted and gloss over without questioning. Many HongKongers support the handover back to China, it's just you never hear their voices in Western media.

[Luís M. Alves Ferreira]

As you I'm rediscovering the way West sees the world. Being myself a Westerner I'm felling a growing sense of shame...

[Thomas Kiu]

Malcolm is living in memory. Quoting 23 years ago 'negotiations' and using satellite pictures to jump into a conclusion. Wonder when was his last ground tour of Sin-jiang

[Muhammad AbdunNafay]

Sure, allow him to go and he will.

[Mary Wrong]

People in China is friend, but the CCP is foe.

[DorianLS]

To begin with, a debate such as this one could never happen in China, because you are not free in China to have your own views and to express them in a public forum. Heck, you can't even write a two-line tweet or have Taiwan on a map without arousing China's wrath.

[Leo]

It's nice to see an intelligent discussion about China. Would it be possible to debate/discuss/argue the most recent motion "black lives matter" to see what the audience of Intelligence squared thinks about it?

[emmawang1999]

It doesn't matter how you think about China. As long as you have been talking about China a lot. That really means something.

[不惑:cogent]

When Liverpool plays Manchester City, friend or foe? When the English players in both teams play for England in World Cup, friend or foe? Friend or foe, an ally or an enemy, depends on the circumstances we are in. To fight C19 pandemic, I believe every country should be allies. In terms of ideology to run the countries on the other hand, there could be different bloc. Will there be circumstances that are over-riding, such that a foe will never be a friend again? Let's discuss.

[Dave Deng]

Somehow, blaming China is the easy option here. Playing tough on China gets those politicians more votes from those ignorant voters who refuse to see China as it is. We can spend all day trying to educate these westerners, yet they still choose to blind themselves with what they want to believe.

[Hector out]

@Dave Deng dude take on responsibility for your own fault is not easy. All you said China successful defeated the virus and our system is superior to those of the West. I didnt hear oh we are very sorry for this to happen to the world and we ll do our utmost to help others and get to the bottom of this horrific event so we can learn from it. Coverup then coverup now. In the mean time grand children lost their grandparents around the world not at their own fault😢. innocent people around the world suffer hardship not at their own fault😢. Yes Chinese folks laugh their ass off at the misery of other people.

[Hector out]

@Dave Deng is this Chinese disinformation and shifting blame? e.g US soldiers put the virus in Wuhan or oh it found in Spain in December ? I remember when few countries started banning travel from China. You got so upset for losing face. What is wrong with the Chinese that they can never take any criticism if it s the right thing to do? Oh you set the whole neighborhood on fire and now try to send fire trucks in to claim your heroic rescue! Your helps come with string attachment anyway who gonna believe whatever the Chinese do anymore. It doesnt help when you dont get one single Chinese speaking out but all try to to cover up for their masters. Sadly we have alot Trojans like you you live in the West.

[Jimmy Lee]

Another important thing is most westerners do not understand the historical factors when they make comments about Japan, India, or Taiwan. Especially for Japan, China never intends to go into the sovereign marine territory to do anything. Instead it is only sending its Coast Guard forces to Denali islands, which has long been a part of China but ridiculously given to Japan after the Second World War. If you ask people from Taiwan, Hong Kong or China, they will definitely tell you it is a part of China, or republic of China.

[C5836]

In politics there are no permanent friends or foes. China foreign policy is always to be a friend, unless refused. They will just walk away.

[James Vandeventer]

This was a very well conducted panel discussion with very knowledgeable and intelligent panel. I've learned a lot.

[Frank M]

Good discussion and balanced panels.

[NZDOOM]

As a Malaysian prime minister said a few years ago, we have had a two thousand year relationship with China and they never invaded us. Two years after the British met us, they invaded. The question westerners need to start asking is if they are friends or foes in the way they engage with other nations. Because historically they have been foes and while this has enriched the west it certainly makes all the talk of civilility, truth and goodness ring very hollow.

[TeaWhy]

International relationship isn't the sound of one hand clapping. Friend or Foe will depend on how each country engages with China.

[Rizal Gueci]

A large superpower country with the right to veto has great influence or could be bullied on its neighbor through co-bribery of general election, to influence the neighbor or make them her satelite country.This tension could be less if 5 veto countries expand into 7 veto countries, e.g.Japan and Germany, so the new ones have more reaponsibility towards the global world, like China in the last 5 yeara.I remember the Carl Schmitt theory Freund -Fein -almost the same topic with this discussion.My question could this issue part of contemporary internatonal politic?

[Soumyakanti Chakraborty]

As an Asian(Indian), I am proud that China is giving the West sleepless nights. I hope China rises as a global power and India ultimately becomes a friend of China.

[you tou]

@fangzhenhotmailcom "restore the history glory" lol. sounds exactly like white supremacists

[I SCREAM]

@you tou see a doctor for your ears, seriously

[Megan H]

@I SCREAM No, hes right. The reason white supremacists are seen as fucking weird is that there is no white country, they are from all over. However India and Chinese say the exact same thing, because their ethnicity is their Nationality, and no one cries foul even tho your ideology is the same.

[Kimberly Crichton]

This is the most interesting discussion of the issues in & around China 🇨🇳

[Stephen Ng]

Thank you Martin for an excellent and logical disposition.

[coffeeman]

Salute to Martin Wolf for his rational and wise assessment of current political situation. Ironically, there are still some captain Sir frigate whose eyesight is abscured by US carriers and still tow the lines of US of which Britain was a victim. My dear Sirs are the last persons on earth to comment on the so called"atrocities "committed by other nations because they have blood stains all over themselves. The British and US in particular and all Anglo-Saxon nations as a whole, are unscrupulous nations whose foundation for prosperity was built on countless lives they massacred and the wealth they looted when they colonized helpless nations. And now they have the audacity to judge others using their corrupt and hypocritical moral standards. Wolves and hyenas remain wolves and hyenas even if you put the finest cloths on them.

[Alan Wu]

glad i watched this. great topic and interesting public opinion conclusion

[Zhang Jacky]

Friend or Foe is not judged by rationalization, it is by eyes and ears.

[qzhang25]

Regarding of companies / individuals taking orders from government to do something illegal, here is one example: Fedex purposely send Huawei mail packages to USA for inspection. I don't think Fedex did this for fun, it must take orders from USA government and decided to cooperate. I am not sure if USA has laws requiring companies to steal info for USA government, but regardless, USA government has way to do this regardless it is by law or not. As for Huawei, because it is a Chinese company, it is just convenient for people to assume it will steal info for Chinese government, even though there is no proof so far. Can we trust Huawei, not totally, just like you can't trust Cisco or any other international companies. It is the responsibilities of individual countries to safe guard themselves.

[Dinesh Twanabasu]

The main difference here is, China is trying and working hard so that all it's people can leave happily and high standard life like the western are having. The main objective of the west is to slow down china, contain china, because Chinese is not only developing itself but many countries around the world and the west knows that there is no enough resource in the world for all to enjoy western standard of living. So they must keep others poor.

[GODDESS OF KRATOS]

It'll always be a moral issue when it comes to World Domination add a large power coming into play. China is anybody Parts at will but their own innocence for money on demand. This is a huge issue and until this is addressed corrected and no longer in play, along with the rest of the stupid trafficking worldwide, no one will be allowed to come close to America and what we have. Moral is key as far as culture, China yes has always taking other people around the world ideas and improved on them they are none for this and pride in this so I think defining theft and all that stuff we will never meet head to head.

[Ruyii'i]

Kudos for Prof Jin, I am very impressed. I like Martin's pragmatic views. Malcolm is clearly contradictory, on one hand he insists no freedom in China just because of internet block, on other hand he highlighted that China govt actually listen to its people to work on climate, exhibiting the typical hawkish, conflicting, and closed minded Western posture. I am from Asia, more specifically SEA. It is not true that China hv hostile relationships with all it's neighbors. Territorial disputes cannot easily be represented without understanding the context and history. There's will always be different views, rightly so. It is dangerous to take a siloed and xenophobic view based on West values, which may leave little room for other views to co-exist. I don't understand why China is called out on issues like dictatorship, human rights infringement bcos many countries will be guilty of the same of varying degrees, perhaps also in West under different branding. Asians don't view freedom in the same way, say privacy issue with public surveillance cameras, most are ok and see it as improving public safety, and no Asian will go out to protest when govt mandate us to mask up/vaccinate. Nice talk, well moderated by Carrie, balanced with moderate, positive and critical view points.

[Rubia Ryu]

It's bizarre being Chinese American these days, especially being part-Taiwanese and part-Sichuanese. I see China as a friend, Taiwan as a relative, and the US as the schizophrenic parent who can't decide who or what it is.

[Sikki goh]

Sir Malcolm tried to portray that UK is independent of US but the world knows it is subservient to US.

[Wilfred]

China is not subservient to America, the rest of the world may be but not China.

[Sikki goh]

@Wilfred Russia tooo

[Max Loh]

Hahaha... That's his own opinion only.

[gxlorp]

That's not how it is. I'm a US citizen. Our governments are not the people.

[漢仔]

The Marshal plan gave grant to Europe because US needed a strong Europe to face off a strong USSR.Thus all efforts were used to make Western Europe as industrialized as possible to act as a proxy to USSR, while US could deal with South America and the war in Asia.

[mary lee]

Very good debate!.and the audience are very smart!we should treat every country equal .

[Hosz]

Glad to see this. Farsighted debate!

[bill]

congrats to the lady, she answered very well. i love the way she answered, very logical and realistic.

[4x4crx]

She is very smart and very political but she did avoid or brush over the main issues

[Paul Chen]

@Andy .P is the Quad not a threat to global security with the focus of anti China just because of Taiwan.. (Taiwan is not without a peaceful option!!)

[Phil O'Donoghue]

Allowing Huawei to provide British intelligence 5G etc infrastructure is like the British government accepting a Siemens tender to constructing air defence radar in 1938

[6figureetal]

what i am getting on this discussion is that CHina is viewed as a global threat because if it’s competitiveness

[maxim me]

Martin Wolf really put down Malcolm :" we hope to behave in a sensible,mature,grown up fashion " dealing with facts and information instead of hearsay, and imaginary fears.

[BattlestarZenobia]

To paraphrase Gordon Brown “China is trying to bring millions of people out of poverty and make millions of producers also consumers, I believe we should support their efforts to provide a vehicle for growth in the global economy and to redress the economic imbalance caused over the last decades”

[Andy Yong]

Sometimes asian countries does things diplomatically, but also speak diplomatically but words have meaning that could also for the west to listen to as well. It is not directed solely at the opposite party that we are dealing with especially when it is on international stage. It's a culture of saying indirectly direct. I think many western people might not get the meaning... I think its a asian way of speaking without directly offending.

[Tang Yoke choon]

The topic of China is a friend or foe. is very aggressive in nature for the choosers whoever they are.There will obviously end up to two grouping confronting each other objecting mentally and emotionally leading easily into challenges in action.The idea itself will promote animosity that will also become two groups combating each other without much sense and valid reasoning except open confrontation in massive scale.The voting came out most of the audience are not committed to the topic of discussions

[Tang Yoke choon]

The commentary has precisely talked of the objectives of the western nations in comparison to that of the Eastern counterparts.The former has so far remain to be offensive while the latter has no choice but to become stronger in all sectors that the western countries insist to be enemies when confronted seriously by their counterparts.The world will remain peaceful without aggression, interference and etc.

[Lu Yan]

Jin's father: Jin Liqun (Chinese: 金立群; born August 1949) is a Chinese politician, banker, and professor. He is currently the President of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB).[1][2] He was formerly the Chairman of China International Capital Corporation,[3] the Vice President of the Asian Development Bank, and the Vice Minister of Finance of the People's Republic of China.[4] en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Liqun

[Mohammed Ismail Khan]

Very interesting debate. All experts lending their opinion. However it’s a seemingly biased, afraid of Chinese domination!

[mallik sharma]

United States, giving economic aid to certain countries, was creating a network of American corporate control over the globe, and building its political influence over the countries it aided. The Marshall Plan of 1948, which gave $16 billion in economic aid to Western European countries in four years, had an economic aim: to build up markets for American exports. George Marshall (a general, then Secretary of State) was quoted in an early 1948 State Department bulletin: "It is idle to think that a Europe left to its own efforts . .. would remain open to American business in the same way that we have known it in the past." The Marshall Plan also had a political motive. The Communist parties of Italy and France were strong, and the United States decided to use pressure and money to keep Communists out of the cabinets of those countries. When the Plan was beginning, Truman's Secretary of State Dean Acheson said: "These measures of relief and reconstruction have been only in part suggested by humanitarianism. Your Congress has authorized and your Government is carrying out, a policy of relief and reconstruction today chiefly as a matter of national self-interest." - Howard Zinn, People's History of the United States

[kiwitrainguy]

The US provided grants under the Marshall Plan on condition that the money be used to buy US produced goods. So the money given by the US came straight back to the US. But at least the Europeans got to keep the goods.

[Conall General]

I’d like to see the same debate held in China with a Chinese audience and a 2 v1 reversal in the panel , one westerner v 2 Chinese policy / academics

[Mary Yee]

As is evidenced, the one Chinese defended China in every aspect except conceding the fact about religious freedom.

[Crowe Russel]

With communist membership and under police watching??

[siamcharm]

@Crowe Russel stop projecting

[MK THON]

China: Friend or Foe what a topic for debating? With due respect to all the three panels. Martin Wolf, Esq., Prof. Keyu Jin and Sir Malcolm Rilkind as well as the commentator Madam Carrie Gracie. 1) Friends has got two ways passages one must know to respect each other than Friendship remains and never can end. 2) Where as one constantly flaunts its muscles around worst still at your doorstep. How not to be "Foe". With China rising America should in fact be Happy to have a great competitor to Champion all rounds but instead taken the Phobia paths. What a shamed really.

[60-second HACKS]

It's all about American fright. America isn't competitive, so it resorts to war in all its guises. The most dissapointing aspect is the way western lackeys fall in behind.

[Andy .P]

China is the rising power and is doing what all rising powers do. Make the world more agreeable to it. America is the current No1 power and is defending its position. So far seen off Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.Can it see off CCP rules China. The nations of the world may soon have decide are things better with America running things or would they be better with China running the show. They are no longer 'friends'

[Andy .P]

@MK THON Did you not see the Alaskan conference, read about Chinese air force incursions, the 14 points with Australia, SCS claims. That is challanging. For good or bad this is China pursuing her interests. Its Cold War 2 for the moment. Is this behavior welcomed by Japan, Taiwan, Australia, Phillipines, India ect...? If China wins then she will be able to forfill all these objectives. Am sure you will be happy for that.

[MK THON]

@Andy .PThe Alaska high level dialogue with the Cowboys was a splendid lesson China has given them. With the gearing up economy of China, this is the time China should allocate more budget into their defence R&D. Just ignored those Western Worlds criticism do what is benefiting for your own self as a priority. The Cowboys had done their for decades and that was why they can condemned others now.

[coffeeman]

Friend or foe; it's up to one to choose, if you want a friend, you will get one. If you want an enemy, you will make yourselves one.

[David Martin]

The notion that China has Rule by Law and not Rule of Law is not supported by facts but by prejudicial assumptions. In the majority of instances I have seen, China's government has subjected itself to more stringent observances of the law than it asks of its citizens. A simple example is its exercise of eminent domain -- it seems to have often paid more than the market value for a property to the point where citizens often "blackmail" the government for much more compensation for their properties than the market value. It's almost comical to see sometimes the government would just build a highway around a single house (the owner of which is still holding out for more cash -- the government still has to answer to its other citizens for sensible budgeting). In the West, compensation for eminent domain is often at the lower (lowest) end of the range of values.

[阿飞]

Some country can not continue keep alive without finding country as a foe.

[Alex P.]

Nice part well put - Time: 51:45 I don't know how to get a China that we 51:47 will feel comfortable with and our 51:50 children and grandchildren troubles with 51:51 if we are open fair reasonable in 51:55 dealing with it and not paranoid and 51:57 crazy and some of what is going on I 51:59 have no doubt is paranoid and crazy so 52:02 and none of that rules out the obvious 52:05 fact there are lots of things going on 52:07 in China and so in other countries but 52:09 in China which I think are very very 52:11 concerning and it may turn out that 10 52:14 or 15 years from now we do have ended up 52:17 with a country which is so hostile we 52:20 can't deal with it 52:20 but at least I would like to feel we 52:23 haven't created that by our own 52:25 stupidity and I think we are moving in 52:28 that direction just one short point if I 52:29 may what happens within China ultimately

[Jorge]

Nations will always have differences. Those differences become more serious when too much power is concentrated at the top. China has a dictatorship which has overtaken its Politburo and the United States has an Oligarchy which has through bribery taken over its legislative branch of government.

[Watson]

With regard to the law in China which force firms to comply the executive order of the authority. It is actually an internal law not a universal applied law, this particular code empower the government and some important institutions to have enough power not to be captured by the Capital like what is going on in US with the gun control issue and the abuse of military. i.e. this law is to avoid monetalkcracy (the more money, the more say) , not on other purpose especially not to interfere other nations' internal issues.

[John Tomlins]

Watching this in 2021. Rifkind was allowed to dominate the discussion. W hat does this tell you? Rifkind is history.

[Fanko Chong]

True

[Xu Qinduo]

On China asking its companies to provide information under law, it refers to situations inside China. It has a principle of no-interference in other country’s internal affairs, very different from the practice by western countries. So that’s why it feels no problem in making such law. Otherwise, it can simply say no but do so in reality - there’s no rule of law, right?

[Hector out]

You must be dreaming China has a principle! You dont interfere but you coerce by trade sanctions or using United Front work department people to infiltrate Chinese community overses and Chinese students oversea to carry out missions e.g buying politicians, spy on to intimidate dissidents. What about those Confucius university courses funded by Chinese government mainly to direct pro Beijing stance. Buying off, coercions and intimidations are all the signs for interferencing

[MK THON]

Professor Keyu Jin Congratulation you did a very fair representations with the veterans. 👍

[bill lee]

I think Ms Keyu is too polite and too soft. Furthermore she's an economics professor. She is not a politicians and she has no access to the political strategies or policies of China.

[bill lee]

@Ruby Vegso her father is the president of the AIIB, not a politician but an economist

[bill lee]

@Ruby Vegso it's a financial institution. Its not any political think tank or political organisation. Its about economics and development to benefit many poor countries.

[wowyzaoy]

there was some German dude who said at some war crime trial "you can easily control any population by convincing them that they are under threat".

[dixon pinfold]

You're talking about China, right? Before long it will have 100 million facial-recognition cameras, then a billion. That's where the population is being controlled.

[嘻嘻大好人]

dixon pinfold In future when artificial intelligence is widely used in every country, you will find no public place without facial recognition system.

[嘻嘻大好人]

dixon pinfold US government and companies have collected personal secrets for years. The problem is just you don’t know that😂

[dixon pinfold]

@嘻嘻大好人 I know it perfectly well. The trustworthiness of a government is much greater when the constitution imposes multi-party elections. The problem is you just don't know that.

[dixon pinfold]

@嘻嘻大好人 I do not relish that possibility. What comforts me a little is that multi-party elections open up the possibility that limits and safeguards will be introduced on public surveillance. In China, that possibility awaits the growth of a democratic spirit such as that seen in Hong Kong at present. Here in the West, the government is not your dad. You do not live under his roof. He cannot beat his wife and children and then brag to the world about how smoothly his household runs. Here in the West one can breathe free. I urge you not to regard democracy as anti-Chinese. If you want a Western system to call anti-Chinese, try communism. Democracy can fit any nation or people, so long as they weren't born to be ruled, and don't prefer to live under the roof of a strict and violent dad. Cheers.

[John Hoy]

Sir Malcolm recalled that he spoke arrogantly to a Chinese negotiator during the Sino-British talks on Hong Kong Handover the difference between "Rule of Law" of the British as opposed to "Rule by law" of China. However, I wish to point out that recent riots/terrorism in Hong Kong financed and trained by the "Five Eyes " countries, the British high court judges quickly discharged all the terrorists arrested by the police. Is this the so-called British "Rule of Law" ?

[Robert Calamusso]

Sir Malcom’ lead intro. Excellent. Ping needs to listen.

[Expendable143]

Huawei: But I haven’t done anything you can proof West: we’re afraid of what you might one day somehow be forced to do

[Fan Gugel]

In a debate, it is better to insight emotions than to display them.

[陈帆]

The following represents my personal opinion, I am a Chinese! A big country, an ambitious and powerful country with a clear and solid guiding ideology. As long as the above points are met, the way she understands and acts at any time is based on whether he is willing or not. Or listen like an adult, smile at the old man and retreat, or quarrel passionately or even anxiously like a young man, cry like a child, and eventually he will decide whether to shut his mouth decisively and act. The solution that most people in this world understand is only that most people are lucky enough to watch or participate, and the final result is only decided by those few people. It is as simple as it is complicated. The greatest skill of a politician is to complicate simple things, while great aspiring men are always simple.

[TT TCP]

Man,u cant define the relationship between countries as simply friend or foe.It is more complicated.

[Raul Tiangson]

Countries have no permanent friends or enemies They have permanent interest.

[PeaceMatters]

Friend or foe? If I treat you as my enemy, would you become my enemy? Isn't that the Golden Rule: Treat others as you would like others to treat you. There is so much to gain as friends! That doesn't mean that as friends, there will not be problems. But these problems can be worked out more easily as friends than as enemies. Trust is also easier to build between friends than between enemies.

[Dave Deng]

U.S. should reconsider its foreign policy with China while there is still time left on the clock. U.S. is still the bigger one in Sino-American relationship as if right now.

[Mary Wrong]

People in China is friend, but the CCP is foe.

[ZZ Yang]

1) Martin Wolf makes a lot of sense and more westerners should listen to him and Jin. 2) China has had territorial disputes with India and Japan for at least 80 years. It didn’t become a problem only after she became stronger. 3) If Rest of the World is only concerned if China exerts herself outside of her own territories, why is the Western World meddling in HK, Taiwan and Xinjiang?

[Dak Sze]

Minds opening debate , well done.

[Marcus Kelly]

Very powerful debate. Excellent

[Tan Ban Cheng]

In 1955, at the Bandung Conference in Indonesia, China, along with almost all or all of the non-aligned countries, subscribed to the principle of non-interference among states in international relations. But China, despite this serious undertaking, understands emergency situations such as floods, earthquakes, et al. In such cases, it is not unknown for China to send relief provisions to those affected by such acts of God. The US has, so far, refused to subscribe to such a solemn undertaking. Indeed, how many wars has the US been involved in the short span of time it has been a world power?

[Jonathan Evans]

Rifkind is wrong or just deluded. NSA, UK Security Services do demand even higher influence on, and access to information from tech companies than Chinese company have from the Chinese government. Nothing is secure. The issues are not about security, it's about competition and protecting the West's corporatocracy. And why is it acceptable for the UK to take Chinese funding and defacto ownership of the over-priced Hinkley Point nuclear power plant but not use communication equipment which is just cheaper and better than USA equipment? The answer is that 'information' is far more important to the control on the people than the security, safety, and health of the people

[Edgar Arenas]

Next time invite Eric Li so he can take over the debate. Keyu Jin was played like a violin.

[Carmel Dowley]

Australia is such a stringent allies to the USA yet it very much depends on China for trade as I assume NZ would be as well so warfare puts Australia in a very complicated position, although, we would go with the USA.

[구정회]

Question was Is china is friend or foe ? From the participants half of them think china is friend and another half foe Result would have been much difference if it was internet survey I am sure that if it was internet survey question china foe could have been outnumbered