China's Forgotten Treasure Fleet | When China Ruled The Waves | Chronicle

[@chino3796]

In school they taught us about the Spanish Armada, Viking Long ships and how Brittania ruled the waves. Never of this awesome naval force of bamboo ships the size of aircraft carriers.

[@legpol]

Lazarus Jones, the common sense is, if something is too good, it could be untrue. Zheng He's ships should be tested by this common sense. 600 or 700 years ago, people did not have electricity, no motor-powered tools. Yet the Chinese were claiming they had built 63 four-story-tall wooden ships, each bigger than a football field, and 254 minor ones, in less than 3 years. It gave us an average speed of about 3 days each ship was built. Gentlemen, we should test such a claim with our common sense also. The Chinese also claimed that these huge wooden ships powered with sails had sailed against the currents of the Yangtze River. Do you think it is too good to be true?

[@Reathety]

@@legpol Good call. All history is written by the victors and should be looked at with a critical eye.

[@legpol]

@@Reathety : But the history about Zheng He is not about victory, it is about our common sense. It challenged our poor brain. We were degraded to be subhumans.

[@cmarq817]

The Spanish Armada was a failure. And before them were the Fenician, the Roman and after a few centuries, the Portuguese

[@legpol]

@@cmarq817 : Thanks a lot for your input. Yet, do you believe Zheng He's voyages to be history? I don't.

[@ericbosken3114]

There is still a statue of Zheng He in Semarang, Indonesia. I saw it on a school trip a couple years ago

[@legpol]

Eric Bosken: According to the Chinese narratives I have read, they implied that whenever Zheng He visited, local kings had kowtowed to Zheng He upon meeting, while the Chinese eunuch Zheng He did not kowtow back. Therefore, may I ask you to check such a diplomatic practice with your teacher?

[@JL-tm3rc]

@@legpol haha why are you so hostile when you have been debunked multiple times

[@legpol]

鄭和的訪問團很龐大，有317艘船，艘艘比足球場還大。由上萬的水手操運。另有兵員27，670人。出發前，裝載兩年的糧食淡水。供海路一去一回的伙食。到了外國，吃拉睡當然由地主國負擔。從海邊走到首都，至少得花十天半月，一來一回，起碼上月。都由地主國包。沿途要修建好多軍營廚房廁所，一言難盡。

[@jakubkuzminski5670]

Super Film

[@joenroute9646]

Great!

[@PMMagro]

China was the main population and the main market. It does not make the need to voyage overseas that strong Compare with Portugal or closer Japan?

[@brookhartinvestments3391]

Can you imagine they told us how Vasco da Gama "discovered" east Africa with complete no regard to the Chinese traces 300 years earlier than him.... but no, if you aren't the one writing, whoever is writing owns the history. And if they can destroy your evidence to have their own only. They will.... but in coastal Eastern Africa, the traces were human so there's no denying it.. Just ignoring it until someone else raises it

[@veronicalogotheti5416]

They looked the stars

[@legpol]

汪濤先生，你們既然要走鄭和走過的路，你們就應該走走長江。試試鄭和的帆船能不能夠走長江。

[@Ottovonostbahnhof]

呵呵，郑和的宝船吃水浅，明初长江入海口远比今天深入内陆，南宋时在镇江处，长江下游的航运条件极优越，你的提议毫无意义

[@suesmith1736]

Try reading 1421 the year China discovered America

[@gingerhuff5667]

💚

[@legpol]

Chronicle - Medieval History Documentaries: I am sorry, you were not very lucky because I am a disbeliever in your Zheng He story. My reason for my disbelief is varied. Let me give a few. One, there are too many numbers of Zheng's ships. They were 48, 100, 200, 300. These contradicting numbers proved that Zheng He never had any ships. Two, the building speed was too high to be possible and believable. It was reported by Chinese historians that building of the ships started in the first year of the emperor Yong Le and was completed in Yong Le's third year. In three years, the building of all the ships were completed. Such was too high a speed regardless it was 48, 100, 200, or 300. In 3 years, only one was possible and believable. Three, these sail ships were reported to have sailed in the Yangtze River upward. The upward sailing was impossible and unbelievable. Therefore, the Zheng He saga must be a novel, not a history as you were promoting. More reasons are reserved.

[@JL-tm3rc]

1. the number of ships varies due to different classification and some of the supply ships only participated in the portion of the voyage. Some historians counted those some did not. 2. The video said some are refitted from older ships and some are built from scratch. The largest ship stated in the video is 114 m long but the wooden schooner wyonming is much larger at 140 m length was built in less than a year in 1909. 3. Why is upward sailing impossible in one of the most navigable waters in the world.?

[@legpol]

@@JL-tm3rc ：1）「the number of ships varies due to different classification and some of the supply ships only participated in the portion of the voyage. Some historians counted those some did not.」.......Your explanation was irrelevant because each number represented the total number of the fleet. For instance, Fei Xin (費信）reported the fleet went to sea with 48 ships, and Zheng He reported he went to sea with 100 ships, Ma Junjie (馬俊杰）reported that Zheng He went to sea with 200 ships, some historians reported 317 ships, and Wang Tao (汪濤）reported that Zheng He went to sea with 1600 ships. These historians, including Zheng He, had never classified their ships. Your 「...some of the supply ships only participated in the portion of the voyage...」explanation was particularly wrong because you meant food and fresh water did not go with the whole fleet. Your explanation was another creation of parts of the whole story. 2) If Zheng He's ships were built one each year, it would have taken 48 years to build the Fei Xin's fleet, 100 years to build Zheng He's fleet, etc etc. 3) Drag. Wind power is not strong enough to overcome the water power. That is why we never see sail ships operating in running water, we only see sail ships running in still water such as the lake and the sea. If the Zheng He ships were built in the shape of a box, as claimed by Ma Junjie, then Zheng He's ships even could not go forward in still water because of the drag against the flat bow. Vanity of vanities and all is vanity.

[@JL-tm3rc]

@@legpol 1. in the book TThe Ming World Kenneth M. Swope Nanjing’s Longjiang Shipyard Treatise and our knowledge of Ming ships, it lists the different classifications of the ships. You are imagining the self sustained ships like galleons of the europeans. ZHeng he operated more like the Modern navy or the Roman and and carthaginian navy and vikings who classified their ships as to purpose. By the size of Zheng he's fleet it is more ractical not to mix livestock, water, lumber , repair and food supply in a single ship. you need to specialize each ship for a certain cargo. Even modern navies knows this. Read more because it seems you have very little knowledge. Zheng he have seven voyages so which one did zheng he have 1600 ships. your logic is very flawed. In the Battle of Myeongnyang the number of japanese ships ranged from 133 to over 300 ships. By your narrow logic the battle did not occur 2. You do not build ships in sequence you built them simultaneously, the longjiang shipyards have 13 drydocks with traces of 7 drydock still existing that can accomodate multiple ships in construction. the rest are already existing ships that are refitted as stated in the video. China have many shipyards. If you want a faster build time just increase the number of workers and do multiple shifts. As stated earlier not all ships are the large treasure ships. you have troop and livestock ships that need to be more stable, scout ships for finding an appropriate route and look for supply sources, combat ships that need to be light and fast for battle. I just gave you an example that the wyonming which is larger than any of zheng he ships is buildable. 3. the yangtze is about 6 knots when flowing downstream. a sailing ship can travel faster than that, even faster if unloaded and supported by rowers. you can even take a tour in china using traditional chinese junks and sail upstream. Haha how many times have i debunked you already haha. Debunking you is pretty easy

[@legpol]

@@JL-tm3rc : 1) Yes, I might have misunderstood the word classification. I know the ships were given different names such as 糧船，水船，兵船....etc. The 1600 ships were reported by one Chinese history doctor Wang Tao, and an English Andrew Lambert in the video we were watching. How could you miss? These two doctors also said the 1600 ships were built in 3 years by the one Long Jiang shipyard. It was not imagined by me. I am sure I know more about Zheng He than you. You used irrelevant histories to prove your point, while I only used "Chinese reports" on Zheng He. None of my arguments were non-Chinese reports. 2) Your statements「You do not build ships in sequence you built them simultaneously, the longjiang shipyards have 13 drydocks with traces of 7 drydock still existing that can accomodate multiple ships in construction. the rest are already existing ships that are refitted as stated in the video. China have many shipyards.」 are modern imaginations used by modern historians to justify the impossible building speed. Even if I accept it, the speed was still too fast to build 317 huge ships in 3 years and refit other existing ships. It was a supernatural speed. 3) I have suggested to Doctor Wang Tao to do a up the Yangtze-sailing trial. Now, I suggest that you do it. You have debunked me nothing. Instead you have created new supernatural phenomena.

[@legpol]

@@JL-tm3rc : If you don't mind, let me suggest that you ask the internet a question like "how much recorded history is true?"

[@nunyanunya4147]

0 history... 100% rich peoples vacation footage... last 3 videos have been more disappointing than the history channel has beren

[@AlbionTarkhan]

It was largely forgotten but nowadays it’s being weirdly exaggerated

[@legpol]

I think any exaggeration is tantamount to lie. The Zheng He voyage story is just a lie.

[@boraboranloglu9489]

They forgot to tell that the commander admiral was a slave of Muslim (probably Turkic) origin.

[@chrisw.5138]

140 meters long, what load of BS. Science tells us that it was impossible to build such ocean going ships from wood, and by the way is still impossible today without considerable amounts of steel framing & fittings. Researchers now estimate the largest of the treasure ships to be not longer than 80 meters max, but possibly less. River & canal barges were quite probably larger but are completely different to ocean going ships. It's amazing how some people let all common sense go and make something realistic into something fantastical, just because it fits their bias.

[@legpol]

Chris W. : Zheng He's ships were not only too large to be built, their birth was also too fast to be possible. They came to the world in seconds.

[@chrisw.5138]

@user-mf9yu8qp9s bias confirmed

[@legpol]

@user-mf9yu8qp9s ：How could the West was living in dark ages when compared with China? Isaac Newton discovered universal gravitation in the 17th century when he was teaching in a university and communicating with European scholars. When did any university appeared in China? When did the Chinese know the solar system?

[@tvgerbil1984]

Wyoming was an American wooden six-masted schooner built and completed in 1909. It was 140 meters long and had over 9000 tonnes displacement. It sailed the Atlantic coast for 15 years before it sank in 1924. So it was technically feasible for the Chinese to build wooden treasure ships of that dimensions and survived their southern journeys.

[@chrisw.5138]

@@tvgerbil1984 yeah, that's exactly the point: the schooner's built in the 19th / 20th century, which were blue navy ocean going ships, were all massively reinforced with Iron or Steel fittings. The Wyoming had 90 reinforcing diagonal iron bands per side as well a keel reinforced with iron plates. I am not saying the Chinese couldn't built large ships at the time, and they certainly built massive barges for river and canal traffic. My point is, and this is based in science and real life, not fantasy or wishful thinking, that ocean going ships made purely from wood cannot exceed a certain size (before breaking up in rough seas) which in the best case scenario is about 90+ meters with today's technologies, e.g. laminated wood etc. Back then about 80 meters would already be extremely impressive, but maybe not entirely impossible. So please stop spreading misinformation, whatever your intentions are. In summery: the Wyoming had a deck length of 107 meters, with a loa of 137.2 meters, built from wood and a massively reinforced hull with fitted iron bands and iron plated keel. Both being ship building technologies not known to the Chinese (and Europeans) at that time. By the way: the description of the Wyoming on the English version of Wikipedia is not entirely accurate with rounded numbers and totally missing out on point of the iron reinforcing. What a shame.

[@amanchaudhary742]

कह@n ही\यू?

[@oO-_-_-_-Oo]

Mmm chinese culture yummy yummy egg food yummy

[@erichicks2978]

I say this because there is really no record of them. You can look this up for yourself.

[@gardensofthegods]

?

[@legpol]

Professor Lambert, you should try to sail your sail ship to Nanjing, the same route Zheng He was reported to have travelled. If sail ships cannot sail against running water, you would have proved that Zheng He's voyages is highly doubtful. You might refrain from helping China spread a lie.

[@Little-chilli]

肯尼亚都有明代沉船你不知道？肯尼亚西尤村人就是当时的水手与当地人融合的，有大量的明代生活器具。😅

[@legpol]

@@Little-chilli ：你這是撒謊騙人。因為，鄭和根本就沒船，怎會去非洲？

[@JL-tm3rc]

Sail ships can sail against running water using oars. If the wind is not favorable The navigable part of the Yangtze river can be divided into three main sections: The Lower Yangtze from Shanghai to Nanjing that allow deepsea ships with a draft of around 11 meters. The Middle Yangtze from Nanjing to Yichang (the nearest container port to the Three Gorges Dam). The Upper Yangtze from Yichang to Yibin.

[@legpol]

@@JL-tm3rc : Maybe you were talking about ships much smaller than Zheng He's. It was reported by Chinese historians, Zheng He's ships were bigger than the modern football field and 4 stories tall. I don't believe such huge and tall ships can be rowed with oars. Okay, would you try another challenge? I believe the building speed was too high to be possible and believable. It was reported in this video that the building of all the 1600 ships were completed in three years. Such high building speed was impossible, and thereby the Zheng He saga never happened.

[@JL-tm3rc]

@@legpolif it is 100 time larger you will only need 1000 men for a ship. And those ships are of different sizes some are small with very few that are really huge. Think of how modern navy operates today you have one large aircraft carrier supported by smaller ships. If oars are not sufficient then place capstans or oxen on the banks of the river to pull the ships. The sails could also help in sailing upriver. The yangtze is a slow flowing river. Chinese sailing junks still navigate that river in the early 1900s using sails only. As i said earlier some of zheng he ships are not brand new some were merely upgraded. Also in an armada you have supply ship who will return to home port once the supply they are carrying are depleted they would also carry messages as to the status of the voyage. So for example maybe each week a supply ship will use up all the supply it carries for the armada and return home. Some historians did not count these ships as they are not part of the final voyage. The same operation of ships is done in ww2 in the pacific theatre. So far all your points are debunked

[@MrRonmcneely]

More myth than history. You can’t build wooden ships that large. Many have tried, but the structures pull themselves apart

[@redhongkong]

many say its 444ft(135meters) length, from what i read from the internet. it should be 44men length (average man 1.7m) so it should be around 75meters. not too big, its buildable.

[@matthijslenaerts9423]

@@redhongkong The Chinese archaelogists who studied the dockyards estimate that the ships that went out to open sea were probably around 68m max, which was still massive for that time and about the size of HMS Victory, and they likely handled terribly.

[@tvgerbil1984]

Wyoming was an American 140m long six-masted schooner built from wood in 1909. It sailed the Atlantic coast for 15 years.

[@pantoastado1264]

Tianamen Square

[@ddiesel5095]

You’ll get your ass fried ole pan boy

[@erichicks2978]

These SHIPS were never built and this is all BULLSHIT!

[@michael7324]

Yea I kinda get that same feeling.

[@eggsybenedict7014]

What makes you believe that?

[@IsntTheInternetGreat]

Don't just claim that, show us evidence.

[@akulkis]

Read the book 1421. Historical non-fiction book on this, written by a retired Royal Navy submarine commander, about 15 years ago.

[@michael7324]

@@akulkis I have. But the evidence is shaky.