Chinese Vessel Illegally Salvaged HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse | What is the Law?

WW2 Shipwrecks Disappeared
What's Going on With Shipping?
May 31, 2023
In this episode, Sal Mercogliano - maritime historian at Campbell University (@campbelledu) and former merchant mariner - discusses the illegal salvage of the sunken World War Two vessels HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse by the Chinese vessel Chuan Hong 68; suspected of doing the same to Dutch vessels off Indonesia.
#salvage #worldwar2 #navy
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[@danpatterson8009]

Laws only matter if your culture cares about law.

[@Ganiscol]

Oh the Chinese care about laws. Their laws. Its not their wrecks and human remains, so they may not care. If they were and somebody else ransacked them, you'd hear the scream like they always do when somebody interferes with their interest. But generally speaking, this true for any nation.

[@dingoeatswolf3663]

@@SVThailand hold on, when has dropping the atomic bomb on Japan been celebrated? It ended a war, yes.

[@mosessupposes2571]

Because the USA is such a paragon of virtue regarding international law.

[@danielmartin7838]

​@@SVThailand That is what it took to preserve life, American and Japanese. Because, they likely wouldn't have surrendered so speedily otherwise

[@dingoeatswolf3663]

@@mosessupposes2571 the US isn’t perfect at all. I guess you have different levels or virtue but the ccp definitely doesn’t even make it on the list 😂

[@glhx2112]

Seeing how China is the worlds most prolific thief, this comes as absolutely no surprise. It is disgusting and those caught doing it should be dealt with severely.

[@feoxorus]

Torpedoes.

[@YourSocialistAutomaton]

Ah yes, another racist. I assume you believe every person in china is a puppet of the ccp. As well that since a couple of people did some horrible things represents 1.4 billion people, quite literally a single province of China is more than UK. Sad how racism is manifesting once again.

[@ericbloodaxe8226]

well done China , welcome to our open free market , take what you want knock yourself out before you clean up the sea bed , can you box up the bones by ship and then send them back to the flag\ country so that we can dig a big hole , you know the rest . then we can hope a charity well take over looking after the grave sight. we are not highlighting this are we ,just to cause more problems for China , as instructed by the Americans , Question , who owns the least on the ships that are carrying out this clean up?

[@jimcronin2043]

I agree with you, except that it isn't reasonable to expect anything but a slap on the wrist to result from this.

[@dissent9959]

The US still allows the issuing of letters of marque: privateering. We should place bounties on the heads of these litters and let the privateers go to work.

[@nickohare7187]

My father survived the sinking of HMS Repulse. More than 500 of his shipmates were lost with her. She is a War Grave and to do what has been done is simply desecration and is unforgivable. He has passed away now aged 96 he was just 19 when she was sunk. He would be beyond horrified to hear of this. The Chinese grave robbers are beneath contempt. So sad. rIP Dad

[@peterarnett8023]

so? fuck uk

[@SanitysVoid]

Another poster said what I was already thinking. Some well placed torpedoss into these salvage boats would put a stop to it.

[@AshenTech]

my great grandad was a WWII vet and had a few friends who survive sinking...one survive 3.. one on his way over, one during a deployment and the last as he was headed back, the last was both caused by an attack and improper repairs, he wasnt even navy... these people got zero respect... now... i will also say, the old guys had no issue if a vessel is raised for historic purposes even if it dosnt endup being preserved long term, they would talk about that.. but this 100% wasnt done with any respect or interest in history, they just wanted what they could extract materials wise... and... that lacks any sort of respect... good thing they cant do this in pearl harbor or they would be.. wouldnt be shocked to see them start hiting the old U boat sinking grounds soon since they sunk a bunch close togather in 2 places... and... yeah... they need to just have a random explosion send them down... happens a few times they will decide its not worth the money spent on "salvage" ships... i told somebody i know that, given time, china would try and 'salvage' the bloody titanic.. hes started to see i wasnt joking...

[@SanitysVoid]

@@AdirondackHomestead How old are you?

[@CorePathway]

Call it reparations for the Opium Wars and other atrocities committed by the Empire. If you are going back 80 years why not 180? Fair enough?

[@glockman45]

My Grandfather was a Royal Marine Bandmaster stationed on HMS Repulse. In 1923 the crew presented him with an ivory and silver capped Conductors Baton after he won the Fleets Band competition held at Gibraltar. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised that the Chinese would stoop as low as to desecrate war graves.

[@olliefoxx7165]

Thats back when the Royal Navy was a magnificent force. To win the fleet competition was a very big deal. Imagine what a sight and sound the competition must have been!

[@monkofdarktimes]

It's their culture. If it's not theirs it's barbarian

[@roconnor01]

I'm a Brit,and it breaks my heart that 2 consecrated war graves i.e HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse have been pillaged. Do the people responsible for this,not realise that these two British warships are the last resting place of over 800 Royal Navy sailors !!

[@ElijsDima]

They realise, they just also don't care one bit.

[@paintballthieupwns]

If anything the CCP lead Chinese like the offense

[@johnbeaulieu2404]

@@SVThailand If you believe that then they are stealing from the Malaysians.

[@SuperDave_BR549]

maybe they should have salvaged the ships/remains after the war instead of decades of new wars? during ww2 the us salvaged liberty ships down to practical depths to retrieve the cargos with no thought what so ever for the sailors that were killed and remained there. they weren't particularly nice about it either, pretty much the same way Chi-Na is doing it now. blow them into sections and crane out the muck. if you lose it out there and it matters to you then salve it, if not it becomes fair game in international waters.

[@wildkarrde3370]

​@@SVThailand they're not in Chinese water. Did you listen to the video at all?

[@patmancrowley8509]

I do believe that a couple of torpedoes into the side of the salvage vessel would make a point to these grave robbers. A point that would deter those who are thinking about doing this.

[@pootthatbak2578]

We have the ability, and could do it covertly..no will though

[@johnvannewhouse]

Hear, hear!

[@markkwasny9650]

He'll yes and then they can be a wreck.

[@mariopizzamanmario8563]

I'd agree to that. Also I cannot believe that nobody knows when it is happening. Current day satellites and all. I'd say just do it, quite sure the Americans will when their war graves get destroyed.

[@jamallabarge2665]

I suggest discrete undersea mines. They won't hurt fishing vessles or sea life, just acquisitive hands.

[@domdouse3575]

I hadn't heard about this issue at all. As an Australian, I was appalled by Ur report on the HMAS Perth, I had relatives in the navy in ww2, fortunately all survived. But this is an act of barbarism, akin to piracy. These are war graves, and as such should be left in peace. I'm surprised this story has had so little coverage, as I believe most Australians and other nations who had lost countrymen in battle would want their former soldiers to rest in peace. I feel all thise that have given their lives in whatever conflict on whichever side should be allowed to rest in peace without 'pirates' robbing their tombs, be they Australian, American, British, Japanese, Dutch, or whomsoever. Terrible story, I'm surprised that nations aren't doing something to combat this. Satellites or buoys at sea could monitor these wrecks and authorities could police their protection. Anyway, think I've had my say. I know that some of these pirates are just trying to eke out a living, but if large scale looting is taking place it requires bigger ships and coordination, and also at the sale point of this unirradiated steel, if questions aren't asked then they are complicit too.

[@Tomyironmane]

It's China. They don't have any regard for anyone's culture or people but their own, and regularly steal, deface, impede and make an overall nuisance of themselves.

[@piensodiferente]

Grow up mate!

[@colonelturmeric558]

Western govs are in bed with china. Uk housing problems are down mostly to foreigners being able to buy property and leave it empty to drive up prices, china is the main culprit. All allowed by our traitor government

[@markiobook8639]

Australia and the other countries had more than 60 years to request formal graves status- Commonwealth War Graves Commission was active in Indonesia since 1961- two huge new graves were built to re-intern various remains scattered all over Indonesia- a country of 17,000 islands. They requested nothing. No government requested anything. If they had- there would be a paper trail- and they would have had to engage in a joint Indonesian Navy-which ever other Navy exercise in a joint Bathymetry and Hydrology Survey.

[@markrayner8915]

It’s absolutely outrageous that war graves can be desecrated in this way and nothing is done to stop it. These men from all nations gave their lives to protect us from tyranny and this is the thanks they get?

[@toomaskotkas4467]

I wonder if this channel is going to talk about how the Americans desecrated the Soviet nuclear submarine K-129 in a secret CIA operation "Project Azorian" that involved a civilian salvage company...

[@thatoneperson134]

That’s china for you. Even more sad that people defend this

[@toomaskotkas4467]

So, no reply? I know "it's different". LOL Nation of cowards and liars...

[@Blox117]

@@thatoneperson134 that's britain for you. they bully the world for hundreds of years then expect you to care about them

[@Blox117]

those arent war graves, they are a bunch of garbage that needs to be cleaned up

[@ericmason349]

The Chinese, pretty much across the board, do NOT abide by Interantional Laws.

[@joesutherland225]

Neither does America lol

[@gawdsuniverse3282]

@@joesutherland225 go live in China then.

[@rayvaul3539]

@@joesutherland225 It’s our absolutely wicked and corrupt government. The democrats and the RINO “republicans”, and not the real upstanding republicans and the few democrats who are We The American People first. Or instead of RINOs and DEMs, a better fitting description is the uniparty or the *deep state.*

[@YourSocialistAutomaton]

​@@JW-mb6tq lol what, how is he dreaming when its true? 2003 iraq war? Grenada? Vietnam? Etc?

[@YourSocialistAutomaton]

Love the racist comment about chinese. A representation of a few represents over 1.4 billion to you? Racist scum.

[@trumpetedeagle2]

They're salvaging munitions that have a tendency to be really touchy after decades under water. Shame if a mk48 torpedo, I mean 16in shell, went off on their boat.

[@whakatu4life285]

Cry baby brits whining over all this tripe. So what if the wrecks have gone, how many people did the brits kill through a couple centuries of colonizing half the planet then raping those countries of resources and riches...? Fact is britan is but a hollowed out husk of it's former economic and military self and is now nothing more than another island nation dependant on imports to feed its people and fuel its waning economy. The BIG problem for the "brits" is that they still see themselves as a major world power which they are not, heck even the US military considers the Uk to be a 3rd tier force nowadays

[@carterjones8126]

Even in death I still serve.

[@Aryan-nv9kd]

Cope more. "We wuz kings! We wuz da empire! Take us tiny people seriously! Now guvner, we just suk da US dik ! "

[@outrider425]

as if any government would care

[@thisperson2963]

Or if we accidentally drop a sun on them

[@DONALDSON51]

I am a diver and the Repulse and Prince of Wales were on my bucket list. Both were sat upside down on the bottom but my interest in the history was what made me want to dive them (respectfully). Disgusting that they have been desecrated in this way

[@redhen2123]

Never mind WW II ships, I just finished watching a documentary on the worst plane crash in Indonesia that occurred in 1997. The British sent over to investigate were appalled by the hundreds of locals who came out to loot it, while the Indonesian soldiers stood by and watched.

[@Siegetower]

@Wacko Taking important articles for museums that would otherwise be lost to looters is completely different to wholesale salvaging of entire wrecks.

[@Siegetower]

The standards of life and what is seen as sacred or out of bounds is different everywhere. I noted when the Malaysian Airlines plane MN17 was shot down over Ukraine 10 years ago, local (Ukrainian) villagers came out and looted the bodies of the passengers. The government did nothing to recover looted effects, to my knowledge.

[@NotThatGuyJD]

Would be quite a coincidence if the salvage vessels mysteriously sink not far from where they're salvaging.

[@user-jh6vt8vx4v]

Good reason the Chinese expending their navy. Go read a little history how first opium war comes about. You haven't seen the current Chinese industrial might kick into full gear and turn the whol nation into a war machine. Imagine the US in WW2 with power of 10, you will start getting a picture how it looks when the Chinese really want a new world order. China so far is acting very comstraint. Quite contrary to what the west media is reporting. If the former Soviet Union has this level of might, there will not be a US we know it today, but a dozen of Republic nations instead.

[@bjlewis5431]

Not to mention 'poetic justice' as well as pure coincidence..it couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch of theiving, stealing, plagerizing, copying and cyber-hacking little bunch of narcissist commies.. It's called Reciprocity.

[@JM-mh1pp]

Sea truly is mysterious. Who can truly tell what happened?

[@riograndedosulball248]

Where are disguised auxiliary cruisers when you need them?

[@specterpaine2694]

No doubt that if a few salvage ships go missing who the hell would care? Might even slow the thieving bastards down.

[@texasred2702]

When I was first on active duty over 30 years ago, I was stationed in the Pacific, and the phenomenon of massive Chinese fishing fleets--ocean harvesters, basically--was well-known even then. A whole bunch of them would form up under thick cloud cover, usually during a new moon, in what was supposed to be a sensitive, protected area, and drag net everything. The red operating lights were the giveaway. Dolphins, whales, whatever ended up in the net, they did not care. It was a resource to be extracted till there was nothing left to extract, and they'd move on to the next spot. There are dead zones all over the Pacific as a result, and the public is only dimly aware, though the US Navy has been aware for decades. With that mindset, it's no surprise they think nothing of desecrating a grave site for the materials. The attitude is, it was a long time ago and they weren't our relatives so who cares, that's money to be made. The international community needs to wake the f up, but unfortunately we've mortgaged our entire economy for cheap consumer goods and labor, so we'll soon be at the point where we won't be able to do much about it, if we're not there already. Certainly our elected *cough* officials don't seem inclined to strain on their leashes.

[@Siskiyous6]

"Sensitive closed area", according to whom? The global banksters? China is not interested in being a slave to our currency dictated by fiat, the banking interests do not won the oceans. As a commercial fisherman, I saw the BS that passes for science in the area of the oceans. You seem to believe the narrative, I do not.

[@warrenpuckett4203]

There is a reason why the Thai traditionally do not like the Chinese. The Philipine had to learn the hard way.

[@warrenpuckett4203]

@@Siskiyous6 The China government is the only government with that precedent. They were just cleaning up the trash.

[@brianedwards7142]

@@Siskiyous6 Where did the nasty scientist hurt you? 🙄

[@MG-fr3tn]

Stature before and stature again. Idiots. Today's fishing is an insult to comman sence.

[@russelsellick316]

My uncle was a RN veteran in WWII. He was a member of a rowing club near Port Elizabeth and in that club is a picture of HMS Prince of Wales because many of their officers visited the club during their final voyage to the far East. John would be spinning in hus grave now.

[@chrisbrent7487]

There is sadly not much left of the HMS Prince of Wales or HMS Repulse. It had been looted well before the current incident. HMAS Perth has also been looted as have many other Dutch, Japanese and US war graves in shallow waters. There was an illegal scrap yard in Indonesia where several skulls and other human remains have been found. It would be greatly satisfying if some 15" HE shells were pulled up and accidentally blew. As an Aussie who had a relative die in Japanese captivity in WW2 after the fall of Singapore it is a subject that makes me pretty mad. We have gotten to a point now that there is no need for this to even happen as background radiation levels have almost dropped back to pre WW2 levels and steels of low isotope pollution can be produced again without looting graves.

[@androidemulator6952]

Munitions after 80 years i hear can be very unstable - i agree, hopefully, these pirates may well find out the hard way !! ;)

[@joelwillems4081]

NO on the skulls. That's just silly talk. Bones will not exist after even just six months in the ocean.

[@Commander-McBragg]

Government contractors are doing the salvage. These aren’t rogue operations by any stretch of the imagination

[@SoloRenegade]

china is communist. everything is with gov permission

[@deanfirnatine7814]

China has no right to hire anyone to pillage those wrecks

[@chemech]

More like the government itself, and the crews are PLAN reservists.

[@YourSocialistAutomaton]

Source?

[@YourSocialistAutomaton]

Its literally said on even CNN and BBC these were just scavengers, the malaysian government confirmed they had no connections to the CCP. Stop making up lies.

[@gordonormiston3233]

Unfortunately the value of human lives and remains are of little concern to the Chinese. They have shown time after time respect for many international laws and regulations is a totally nonexistent commodity. International copyright is another area in which they don’t give a rats ass for.

[@tissuepaper9962]

copyright, especially international copyright, is bullshit to begin with, but that's beside the point. they aren't "graves" or "tombs", a tomb is a structure built specifically for housing human remains. what's the benefit of letting that steel just rust away? do you think the dead sailors will mind? do you think their relatives are all that disturbed by it nearly 100 years after the fact? maybe you don't know why this steel in particular is valuable, it's called "low background steel" which is just a nuclear engineering term for "steel that was manufactured before the first atomic bombs were set off". it's necessary for the construction of medical equipment and other scientific apparatus which would be sensitive to the small amount of radiation released by steel manufactured in the atomic age. We don't leave plane wrecks just laying where they fell, do we? why should a ship be any different? i understand that each ship represents hundreds or thousands of lives lost, but consider the lives that the same ship could save when it's used to build medical imaging equipment.

[@openphoto]

Like the us dumping all their ww2 equipment into the ocean? Pouring aff foam into the ocean? Dumping nuclear waste and barrels of pcbs?

[@tissuepaper9962]

@@JW-mb6tq if it bothers you so much, then write your congressman and we can start a war over it. you getting pissed is just part of the plan, buddy. they already took the steel, don't give them satisfaction for free.

[@JW-mb6tq]

@@tissuepaper9962 “We”? You’re a westerner? I would have thought from that defensive rant and you’re distain for law you were CCP salt miner. My apologies carry on comrade.

[@tissuepaper9962]

@@JW-mb6tq yes, "we". my comment is not "defensive", nor is it a "rant". I don't "disdain law", I think intellectual property in particular is just dumb, leading mostly to waste and disenfranchisement of poor people and not technological advancement like it was intended to. I don't "love the CCP", I just choose not to get my britches in a knot over long sunken ships that were laying unprotected within another country's territorial waters. If it really mattered to us that much, we would have had ships patrolling around our property, right? They know that we aren't going to do anything about it except get red in the face, so why should I even be angry about it? They did what a reasonable person would do, and I don't think for a second that we would treat a Chinese shipwreck with any more "respect". I think all this talk of "desecrated graves" is ridiculous. If I drove my car off a cliff into a ravine where my body can't be recovered, would you call that twisted wreck a "grave"? If they manage to clean it up a hundred years later due to new technology or strong economic incentives, has my "grave" been "desecrated"? Those men weren't "entombed at sea", although that's a cute little euphemism. They were killed, brutally, by blunt force trauma and drowning as their vessel flooded rapidly. Their bodies lay there, not embalmed, not in caskets, but strewn haphazardly one atop another. That's not a grave, that's a disaster site.

[@flym0]

I discussed this with my wife's great uncle back in 2009 when I first learnt of this. He was one of the survivors from the POW and was most upset but agreed that the Chinese seem to be above any kind of morality. Sadly we lost him whilst the new POW was in build. If only he could have held on for a visit.

[@franko1904]

Maybe Britain and the allied nations should return all the treasures looted from China when they invaded China to force it to buy opium to balance its trade deficit. In return, China may agree not to display these salvaged ships in its museum. NOTE: British Law made it illegal to sell opium, as far as the Brits and Americans are concerned, morality and laws do not apply to them when it comes to international relations, especially when they can force gunship diplomacy to steal and rape the East.

[@rockcrusher4636]

Excellent, thank you, new sub. Cheers.

[@JK-wc5oq]

Fortunately, the Royal Navy recovered the bells from both HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse in 2003, and they are now on display as a memorial to Force “Z” at the Royal Navy Museum in Portsmouth.

[@mosessupposes2571]

The bells but not the bodies? How awful. That sounds like just more salvage without regard for the bodies like he’s talking about.

[@JK-wc5oq]

@@mosessupposes2571 The bells were on the open air compass platforms and were easy to access without having to chop the ship to pieces. The bells were removed because they were so easily accessible and a bounty had been placed on them by East Asian buyers, so the Navy removed them before they got nicked. The operation was carried out with the support of the survivors and relatives of the crew.

[@twentyrothmans7308]

Thanks - I didn't know that. Indonesians nicked HMAS Perth's bell, subsequently recovered in the 1970s.

[@philgiglio7922]

​@@mosessupposes2571... I'm not a sailor,. My understanding is that the Bell is considered to be the "heart" of a ship. The big Fitz bell was salvaged and replaced with a replica. Done with the families endorsement and participation.

[@markiobook8639]

UK never requested Java sea wrecks to be war graves. Commonwealth War Graves Commission was in Indonesia since 1961. They oversaw the rationalisation of many graves into two large graves. The CWGC could have requested maritime graveyard status. The Guardian Article 20 Dec 2016 "Can anything be done to stop the vanishing wwII shipwrecks of Java?" The Netherlands has a significant illegal salvage industry, notably looting HMS Aboukir, HMS Hogue, and HMS Cressy off the Dutch coast. Similarly, UK salvagers have exploited historic Dutch shipwrecks. At a recent lecture at the British Museum, Dr. Innes McCartney presented evidence showing the widespread salvage of the ships from the Battle of Jutland. A recent report showed it to be a Dutch salvage firm. UK and Dutch officials know the responsible salvers, but neither government has taken action beyond strongly worded letters. Andy Brockman, an archaeologist and researcher in maritime crime, said the UK government had not done enough to stop undersea looting. “My feeling is that the Ministry of Defence files the issue of taking active steps to protect historic Royal Navy wrecks under the heading of too difficult and too expensive,” he said. “However, I think it is becoming ever more clear that this attitude is not acceptable to the wider public, not least to veterans and their families.” Go educate yourself.

[@inspector4133]

Part of a Navy family. This hits close to home. Incredibly sad and disrespectful. Just another instance of shaking your head and saying "China" with disgust.

[@77thTrombone]

Word.

[@deanfirnatine7814]

China needs to be eliminated

[@regdor8187]

Aww Shucks, China is doing the world a favor by cleaning up the mess of War that if the nation that lost that junk really cared that much they would have recovered it themselves....

[@ericbloodaxe8226]

well done China , welcome to our open free market , take what you want knock yourself out before you clean up the sea bed , can you box up the bones by ship and then send them back to the flag\ country so that we can dig a big hole , you know the rest . then we can hope a charity well take over looking after the grave sight. we are not highlighting this are we ,just to cause more problems for China , as instructed by the Americans , Question , who owns the least on the ships that are carrying out this clean up?

[@patrickchase5614]

The US has a "complicated" legacy in this respect due to Project Azorian (the CIA's salvage of a Soviet SSB).

[@erlinglea4122]

great show old mariner here enjoy your show a lot much info that is news to me

[@susanhoneycutt5610]

My dad served in the US Navy during WW2 in the Pacific. He came back alive or I’d not be alive. The desecration of these ships, imo, is so very wrong. I’m trying to learn much more historical facts about this period in history. Your take on this issue is enlightening. Illegal salvage is discerning.

[@ozarkshark]

No matter the value of the metal, destroying those graves is a vile act.

[@floorskins1108]

@@jefreyjefrey6349 HMS EXETER,A DISGRACEFUL END TO A FINE SHIP N ITS MEN ,AT LEAST WHATS LEFT OF THE GRAF SPEE RESTS IN PEACE

[@george2113]

If a ship isn't recovered then it is surely abandoned

[@floorskins1108]

@@SVThailand THERE ARE SOULS N R SOULS M8,,YEW PAYS YUR MONEY N CHOOSES,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[@gordybishop2375]

Why the US has no leg to stand on kzbin.info/www/bejne/aYTXpYyKjr5_q80

[@EmmaLaBunn]

@@jefreyjefrey6349 As Sal said in the video, scavenging these ships is against the UN Convention on the Laws of the Sea, of which China is a signatory, therefore it's explicitly against Chinese law. It's not even in their territory to give them a fig-leaf of legitimacy. It's illegal, and it's immoral.

[@gavinparson]

There was a popular dive wreck off Malapascua in the Philippines named MV Doña Marilyn. It was a sunken passenger ferry laying at the depth of 36m. I last dived on it in 2018. Shortly after that, apparently, a Chinese ship destroyed a large part of it for scrap thus ruining a popular dive site. It may not have been a war grave but 400 people still died in the sinking.

[@jenifferschmitz8618]

it would been a valuble economic resourse for dive tourism that china wreaked

[@immikeurnot]

@@jenifferschmitz8618 If 400 people went down it, it was also still a tomb that should have been left undisturbed so long as it wasn't a navigational hazard.

[@Biden_is_demented]

It´s all BS! Unless there is proof that they did it, there is zero incentive for them to do it. It would cost a billion dollars to recover a battleship, that contains nothing of value. No intelligence, no super duper secret weapons, nothing. So why do it? How would they "salvage" it and leave no evidence behind? Seems to me people are having a knee jerk reaction, mixed with good old fashioned racism and fearmongering. Ships don´t disappear, they just moved position. In areas where typhoons are constant, the sea floor moves with the currents. The same phenomenon that moves rocks in Death Valley can move multi-ton ships on the sea floor. The sediment works as lubrication. It is more likely the wrecks are a couple miles off their known positions.

[@thunderpanther]

😊

[@blox1134]

china is just cleaning up ⬜ ppl mistakes

[@desperatedave3573]

I love learning of history, I love boats, and could of seen myself as a sailor in lives past.. I didn't expect to see this .. but I enjoyed the whole you tube vid.. it is sad to hear of this.. I must admit, I am understanding of why they are being salvaged.. it only makes sense.. economically and materials etc,, but the way it is being done.. and disregard to the history, and the dead who call these salvages their tombs.. is.. alas.. .I cant put words to it.. It is monstrous.. Thank you for the vid it was very informative.. I subscribed and belled :P

[@ZeR0daRkSaiyan]

This topic ABSOLUTELY INFURIATES ME!!!!!

[@ecognitio9605]

Fortunately a good percentage of WW2 ships settled deep within the ocean and are basically un-salvagaeble economically. The USS Samuel B Roberts a John C Butler-class destroyer holds the record for deepest WW2 wreck at 21,521 feet below the sea's surface.

[@jamesmason2228]

True enough. Whenever I hear about a wreck below 400 feet I breath a sigh of relief.

[@andrewtaylor940]

Not that many. By all accounts the wrecks of Iron Bottom Sound. A ton of US and Japanese Warships. Many sunk with thousands aboard, have been pillaged.

[@Syndr1]

Agreed 👍......But China has Money 💰 🤑 💸 to throw around 🤔. Sigh

[@ssnerd583]

@@Syndr1 .....YEAH.....Killaries money

[@Arkus-Duntov]

One edit, destroyer escort. Its a good thing they're far down too. Shame some countries don't respect the dead.

[@ExUSSailor]

This should be treated as an act of piracy, and, punished accordingly.

[@kenkaufman9998]

'Don't call the USA to enforce the law. The UK is no match for the Chinese Navy today, it's not even close. IF the UK thinks it can win a war with China, it truly is delusional.

[@ohgeazy]

The brits can’t even control their own citizens let alone foreign countries

[@captainwin6333]

Then the people who caused the globe to be contaminated with radioactivity from the tousands of nuclear tests should be held responsible for nuclear pollution.

[@blox1134]

they are just cleaning the ocean of garbage

[@magnaviator]

The fish got there first.

[@RossPotts]

OMG! Interestingly enough, on my YT feed, 4 videos down, is a video about using old ship sheet metal to make wheels for truck tires!

[@CigarAttache]

Sal, The hedge fund that tried to seize the Argentine navy vessel Libertad in 2012 would be an interesting look into maritime law 👍

[@Pedro-lf4gr]

I am extremely angry at the desecration of HMAS Perth as it was my late Fathers ship HMS Amphion which he served on in the Royal Navy before it was transferred to the Australian Navy and sunk 🤬

[@markiobook8639]

UK, USA, Netherlands and Australia NEVER requested any of the vessels to be maritime war graves. Despite the Commonwealth War Graves Commission being active in Indonesia since 1961. UK, USA, Australia had 50 years- half a century- to act and they did nothing. CWGC oversaw the re-internment of thousands of UK, US Dutch and Australian corpses to two major cemeteries. CWGC knew about the battle of Java. The Guardian Article 20 Dec 2016 "Can anything be done to stop the vanishing wwII shipwrecks of Java?"

[@markiobook8639]

UK, USA, Netherlands and Australia NEVER requested any of the vessels to be maritime war graves. Despite the Commonwealth War Graves Commission being active in Indonesia since 1961. UK, USA, Australia had 50 years- half a century- to act and they did nothing. CWGC oversaw the re-internment of thousands of UK, US Dutch and Australian corpses to two major cemeteries. CWGC knew about the battle of Java.

[@douglasherron7534]

@@markiobook8639 As I've mentioned above, your "cut-and-paste" answer does not appear to contain any understanding of the work of the CWGC or the idea of a war grave at sea. You do not have to declare a naval ship that was sunk with loss of lives a "maritime war grave" - it just is. Likewise, how exactly were the CWGC supposed to recover and re-inter the remains of sailors from these shipwrecks?

[@darreng745]

@@douglasherron7534 The UK did so under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 designating wreck sites around the world, except there is no monitoring and it relies on local authorities being willing to co operate to protect the sites except in the case of the Java Sea wrecks no doubt local corruption played a role with a blind eye being turned.

[@markiobook8639]

@@darreng745 That was an Act of UK Parliament with no jurisdiction outside the UK and its various tax-haven fortune hiding islands. Indonesia and Myanmar had both decolonised so the UK Parliamentary Acts are as important and binding to external nations as no other city but Jakarta effected by Jakarta Municipal Government defining what parking areas are how long cars may stand and what gazetted fees are.

[@buckchesterfield8886]

The CCP has no shame and I am absolutely furious.

[@jwenting]

it's not just the Chinese. It's scrap metal merchants from most every country in the region. Indonesians and Malaysians completely destroyed the wrecks from the battle of the Java Sea for example.

[@dsfs17987]

why do you even care? is anyone actually diving to those wrecks to pay respects and now will not see the ship there any more? so why the ship remains being there matters? it is the memory that matters, and that can live on regardless whether the metal ship is there or not, and if you care about remains so much - go and recover them? anyone is willing to pay for that? because it is doable so the remains of the ship serve a new purpose now, lessening the impact of continuous waste of non-renewable natural resources and you complain about it? so at the end it is how you look at it, here you decided that it is a bad thing just based on nostalgia and probably some religious dogmas, but from practical reasons and actual - real sustainability (not the fake stuff that most manufacturers are engaging now in to waste gov benefits provided for it) - it makes all the sense to salvage what you can, because otherwise it is simply wasting away

[@lorriebuxton2041]

I think they should be salvaged get the trash out of the oceans they are dead very sad but even their bones have desolved anything worth saving should be conserved in museums for people to see and remember

[@jwenting]

@@lorriebuxton2041 ok, by that logic we should also dig up Arlington cemetery, it's just rotting old wooden boxes stuck in the ground, right? And the land is valuable, could be turned into good housing estates for a LOT of people. And the same with those dusty old battlefields from the civil war.

[@rayvaul3539]

@@dsfs17987 Those metal beasts are the headstones for our fallen comrades you GIT! Men and women who lost their lives who won’t even see their loved ones ever again in the physical land of the living unless they had Jesus with them! Those wrecks should be left alone! Maybe you should be more respectful to the warriors who fought for us and our own future back then! Or do you?

[@frequencymanipulator]

Interesting video, I sub'd.

[@wgowshipping]

Thanks for the sub!

[@jeroenvangastel9079]

Great video. Indeed it is shameful business. This needs to be stopped immediately 😢

[@franko1904]

Maybe Britain and the allied nations should return all the treasures looted from China when they invaded China to force it to buy opium to balance its trade deficit. In return, China may agree not to display these salvaged ships in its museum. NOTE: British Law made it illegal to sell opium, as far as the Brits and Americans are concerned, morality and laws do not apply to them when it comes to international relations, especially when they can force gunship diplomacy to steal and rape the East. The West should immediately return all looted treasures from its past colonies and wars.

[@AllNighterHeider]

This story is yet more proof that neither dollars, yuan, nor gold are wealth but rather a measurement of potential wealth. Real wealth is useful goods which monies and currencies are used to acquire. Thanks for the reporting Sal

[@ncc74656m]

Reminds me of that Are You Afraid of the Dark episode about the ghosts that would come up from the water to try to kill this guy who was an underwater treasure hunter. They were angry about his disturbing of their graves. Kinda wish this would happen to these crews.

[@markiobook8639]

UK, USA, Netherlands and Australia NEVER requested any of the vessels to be maritime war graves. Despite the Commonwealth War Graves Commission being active in Indonesia since 1961. UK, USA, Australia had 50 years- half a century- to act and they did nothing. CWGC oversaw the re-internment of thousands of UK, US Dutch and Australian corpses to two major cemeteries. CWGC knew about the battle of Java. The Guardian Article 20 Dec 2016 "Can anything be done to stop the vanishing wwII shipwrecks of Java?"

[@CherokeeFlutist59]

WWII warships rising like the Flying Dutchman and turning their guns upon treasure hunters die to bring disturbed. Sounds like a good movie

[@martinkasper197]

Some japanese "ghostships" rose up 2021 from the ocean ground near Iwo Jima due to an underwater vulcano...👍🤣 True story...

[@KeithSoremTeam]

excellent

[@johngould3724]

My grandfather was on HMS Electra. I think she has been salvaged (wholly or partially) too. It is distressing to hear what is happening. I can understand why people might be driven by an economic imperative but I thought Chinese culture respected ancestors. This process is wrong on so many levels.

[@scurtis106]

They used to respect ancestors until the Communist Party got jealous and decided to break their people of looking up to anyone that is not them.

[@kokhowe]

SAdly, Taiwan is the only place where real Chinese culture is still properly preserved. China under Mao and the CCP today has no place for real Chinese culture. What they have is only a facade.

[@alabamatechwriter6959]

Thank you for this update! This has probably been an ongoing issue since WW2 that becomes an occasional issue when raised, then quickly forgotten. Thank you for raising the issue again.

[@patrickbuick5459]

I can just imagine the outcry if someone went onto Chinese territory and started digging up cemetaries, gravesites etc, never mind sites of historical significance just for minerals. I wonder how much sealife is being affected as well, since these may have become artificial reefs depending on depth.

[@shoukatsukai]

Sadly, the Chinese Government doesn't care about their own cemeteries either. Search up how much historical sites were destroyed during the construction of the Three Gorges Dam.

[@user-jh6vt8vx4v]

Grave robbery? No worry, the Brit (American), French and whole lot of other west nation done that alot. Do you know mummy used to be cheap substitute for wood at one point? And why there are so many Chinese artifacts in British museum and metropolitan museum? So let you know, every article get displayed hundreds of them get destroyed by the people that getting at the first place. Because whatever they cant take, they destroyed.

[@Blox117]

you mean like britain already did?

[@shoukatsukai]

@@Blox117 Are the Brits taking mummies and using them as coffins? Bad example

[@centergaming5055]

​@@Blox117might want to go into detail

[@troymcmahon488]

I wonder if they could put some sort of underwater surveillance around these wrecks. Even if they just place some sonar buoys they should be able to detect when someone is doing this and send a ship out to stop them.

[@boijames3253]

Just not illegally salvage those gravesites in the first place then…the maintenance cost to keep those instruments running is gonna be pretty high. Plus, the salvagers can find ways to jam those and keep looting.

[@trustne1]

Thanks for raising this subject it is distressing that Chinese sponsored salvage vessels scavenging of these monuments. You did make a reference that HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse were lost at the start of World War 2 and I thought it important to remind everyone that the war had actually been in progress for over a third of its time (two and a third years) at the point in time that they were lost, I am conscious that the United States was recently entering the war at this point in time however I think its important to stress the true timeframe.

[@colonelturmeric558]

Apparently the war started with america joining🤷🏼‍♂️

[@crazyguy_1233]

As a fan of naval history this angers me. These ships aren't just pieces of metal for people to plunder so disrespectfully these are war graves and they are historic markers.

[@blox1134]

britain lost

[@blox1134]

get over it

[@JRyan-lu5im]

@@mand5422 Their navy was neutered by the Japanese and Germans over the entire war. England sold off or loaned naval bases and technology to the US for payment as well. Winning the war cost England its whole empire. As that goes, Churchill should've accepted Hitlers peace offers if he wanted to sustain the rest of England's foreign jewel0, if he wanted to look at long term survival.

[@crazyguy_1233]

@@blox1134 I'm not British. That being said war wrecks are graves and should never be disturbed no matter what nation the vessel belonged to.

[@alexmckee4683]

Spanish treasure ships and even some 18th and 19th century British ships are being plundered in the Atlantic by US citizens. It is unrealistic to think that other nations will respect our heritage. Most cultures only respect power and if you're too weak to use it you will lose respect. Britain made China yield in the past, now they are repaying the favour. If we want to be respected in the world again we need to start behaving accordingly.

[@petermargie]

Thanks so much for this Sal! I shared this video with my soon to be 100 year old dad. He found it fascinating. He, like I, was unaware of these issues with low radiation metals. He got a degree in chemical engineering from Lehigh University,...in Bethlehem Steel’s home town, during WWII. He went to medical school after the war. He’s still sharp enough to appreciate this kind of information. Thanks again!

[@wills2140]

You were unaware mainly because it is no longer as valuable. Fewer instruments now need low background metal and most needs are met from existing supplies. Getting enough tons of nearly any quality metal together can still pay, but nowhere near times past. Which kind of makes these ships destruction and loss sadder.

[@petermargie]

@@wills2140 Less valuable,....unless fusion reactors,...or so,etching else, require it. It will then become priceless.

[@markiobook8639]

UK, USA, Netherlands and Australia NEVER requested any of the vessels to be maritime war graves. Despite the Commonwealth War Graves Commission being active in Indonesia since 1961. UK, USA, Australia had 50 years- half a century- to act and they did nothing. CWGC oversaw the re-internment of thousands of UK, US Dutch and Australian corpses to two major cemeteries. CWGC knew about the battle of Java. The Guardian Article 20 Dec 2016 "Can anything be done to stop the vanishing wwII shipwrecks of java?" The Netherlands has a significant illegal salvage industry, notably looting HMS Aboukir, HMS Hogue, and HMS Cressy off the Dutch coast. Similarly, UK salvagers have exploited historic Dutch shipwrecks. At a recent lecture at the British Museum, Dr. Innes McCartney presented evidence showing the widespread salvage of the ships from the Battle of Jutland. A recent report showed it to be a Dutch salvage firm. UK and Dutch officials know the responsible salvers, but neither government has taken action beyond strongly worded letters.

[@archiebald4717]

Shocking!

[@Georgeconna32]

Got a Prince of Wales Keyring with a metal bit included in China when I visited a few days ago. Class Stuff. $2

[@thebigbrzezinski3201]

The navies of nations to which these war graves belong are just gonna have to start patrolling these areas, likely in cooperation with local nations and each other. I'm sure China will totally be on board with this course of action and think it is very good.

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

Surely you are making a joke here?

[@thebigbrzezinski3201]

I'll put it this way. If China did manage to draft a coherent complaint about such patrols, it would be a noteworthy feat of creative writing.

[@garrymartin6474]

Just attach mines to the wrecks , job done !

[@markiobook8639]

Commonwealth War Graves Commission had 50 years to request maritime graves from 1961 it had excellent working relationship in Indonesia. Two major graves were created re-interring many scattered and isolated ones. Battle of Java was well known. It's understandable the Indonesians not care two figs about the hated Dutch but the UK they got along with since 1946 Lord Mountbatten no longer allowed himself or British forces to do the Dutch's dirty work. Blame the UK government.

[@Matt-yg8ub]

@@thebigbrzezinski3201 I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re clearing out the wrecks in part to erase the western history in the area.

[@josephbateman7742]

It seems these days that I can't go one week without finding a new reason to hate China with a passion that frankly, worries even myself.

[@markiobook8639]

You'll do well in Indonesia or Malaysia.

[@HisMagnificence]

At this point just get a boat and some friends, train and prepare them sink Chinese poachers or throw them in the ocean and take their boats to sell in anti-china countries. Big money to be made in the ethical anti-evil pirate industry.

[@icefox7022]

yes, and just wait till they start their "special military operation" in Taiwan, cause sadly that will most likely happen.

[@krashd]

Don't hate 1.5 billion people for the actions of a few dozen scrap metal thieves, you're better than that.

[@davidweihe6052]

The ships aren't graveyards, anymore, they are not even crab and lobster eateries (for the crabs, to eat the dead) anymore, after all this time. The USA salvaged a Soviet missile sub towards the end of the Cold War, but gave the Soviets photographic evidence that any bodies found were properly reburied at sea using Soviet rites.

[@raymaster]

at least someone is talking about this.... sadly this is quickly pushed into yesterdays news and not cared about it seems in modern news cycles.. you can look up the ships info they are already at it with their tags turned off... they were not held for long.

[@Mrch33ky]

Reminds me of that Far Side cartoon, where a medieval infantryman looks at the giant catapult the attackers have rolled up against his army and says nervously: "They can't do that... can they?"

[@ashontahuddleston6663]

I'd start surveying Truk Atoll and it's ship graveyards. There are over a hundred wrecks in the largest lagoon by itself. And, the deepest wreck is divable at less than 200 feet deep. Don't know who owns that area, but best to keep an eye on it to keep salvagers away. Now, imagine the uproar over salvaging the Yamato, Musashi, Hood, or Bismarck even though they're in deep water....

[@notlessorequal3777]

Considering the Japanese were doing a pretty good job in attempting to wipe the Chinese off the face of the Earth during World War 2, the profits obtained from the salvaging of the lmperial Japanese wrecks would probably be seen as ‘compensation for war damages.” And and I doubt the Chinese won’t hesitate for a millisecond to touch them, if given the opportunity.

[@olliefoxx7165]

Those wrecks are now the homes of sea life. Hopefully from death the circle of life begins anew.

[@bbb8182]

I read the wrecks are being harvested very rapidly and in secret

[@colonelturmeric558]

What do we expect from the country that eats anything that moves despite not needing to, and murders its own civilians en masse

[@grahamstrouse1165]

@@bbb8182They’re far too deep to salvage.

[@kennethmorris1137]

Thank You! I worked with ROV's & ships , rigs , NAVY USN from 1981 till Aug 2008. This is right up my alley.

[@annabellelee4535]

There is no way those shops could be salvaged with nobody noticing the massive cranes needed to pull the wreckage out of the ocean.

[@iowa_don]

The US is not necessarily complying with UNCLOS. The soviet submarine K-129 sank on 3/8/1968 with all 98 sailors aboard and the CIA launched Project Azorian in 1974 to recover the K-129. They succeeded in recovering part of it and buried six bodies recovered at sea.

[@Salmon_Rush_Die]

There is no way the U.S. Navy hasn't known about this since it started.

[@markiobook8639]

Someone gets low background radiation metals.

[@nairbvel]

Not much they can do in another nation's territorial waters if there's no actual war going on...

[@TheLoraxshadenough]

It's a shame the secretary of the navy isn't scheduling training drill in the area, use it as a way to tell china and other scrapers to kindly fuck right on off with this.

[@inyobill]

If Britain had performed such an act on a Chinese site, PRC would be completely fuill of righteous indignation.

[@whakatu4life285]

Cry baby brits whining over all this tripe. So what if the wrecks have gone, how many people did the brits kill through a couple centuries of colonizing half the planet then raping those countries of resources and riches...? Fact is britan is but a hollowed out husk of it's former economic and military self and is now nothing more than another island nation dependant on imports to feed its people and fuel its waning economy. The BIG problem for the "brits" is that they still see themselves as a major world power which they are not, heck even the US military considers the Uk to be a 3rd tier force nowadays

[@donnthesovereigncitizen1577]

Yes, typical double standard of the CCP, WHO WILL EVENTUALLY PROVOKE OTHER NATIONS TO DECLARE WAR ON THEM!

[@suitablegames8641]

Great video, hope the international community can find a common ground on this. I think respecting the fallen of WW2 can be a great unifier on this issue. Or atleast I hope so…

[@Stroopwaffe1]

Subbed

[@frankmiller95]

Very interesting. Having a similar background to your own, although including sailboats before "getting serious" and obtaining a "real deck officer's license" this is fascinating stuff. Nice job, Sal.

[@johnr8476]

Prince of Wales was a pretty historic ship, I think it was the ship Churchill and Roosevelt held a meting on early in WW2.

[@snebbywebby2587]

And her shells were responsible for forcing the Bismarck to head to port

[@pattrick9490]

It was .

[@markiobook8639]

Commonwealth War Graves Commission had 50 years to request maritime graves from 1961 it had excellent working relationship in Indonesia. Two major graves were created re-interring many scattered and isolated ones. Battle of Java was well known. It's understandable the Indonesians not care two figs about the hated Dutch but the UK they got along with since 1946 Lord Mountbatten no longer allowed himself or British forces to do the Dutch's dirty work. Blame the UK government.

[@tomriley5790]

@@markiobook8639 you can blame the government for that but it's not them that's actually doing the salvaging and I don't think that it would have made any difference to what actually happened.

[@markiobook8639]

@@tomriley5790 well isn't that just negative assumption. None of the graves of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission have ever been looted. The cemeteries are better kept than most Western cemeteries. Perhaps I am reading this wrong but your comment has an air of moral superiority-- How on earth would you know? No one robbed the braves of the terrestrial war dead. There is far greater respect for cemeteries- you don't have yobbos as in the UK defacing or breaking cemetery headstones. Is there a UK epitaph for the hundreds of thousands of completely non aligned SE Asian civilians killed by allied bombing campaigns especially firebombing of the oil refineries, infrastructure, railyards etc?

[@mpwaterhouse]

As of today - just looking at the Marine Traffic tracker and comparing it to the ArcGIS WW2 sunken ships charts. Chuan Hong 68 it is currently around 150 nm South of the wreck sites and seems to be heading in a northerly direction so if it continues, should be back at the Prince of Wales location in 24 hours!! Hardened submerged snitch buoys should be securely attached to preserved wrecks that when will pop to the surface take images of any nearby vessels then transmit a violation alert when any explosions or significant disturbance happens.

[@taxidude]

Fascinating. I was hoping for an outcome. What troubles me more is that the only way to get this non radiated steel is from these old vessels because all steel from after the war including the stuff be produce today is contaminated. If it has done that to steel globally. What has it done to us and other living creatures on the planet?

[@Salty_Balls]

The US Navy sent teams out before covid and concluded that USS Houston had been tampered with as well. The report wasn't specific enough to know the extent. At least the conclusion wasn't strong as I recall.

[@aaronbryan5095]

I'm from Malaysia and honestly it feels like China thinks Southeast Asia is their own backyard or something, they seem to think they can do whatever they want here without facing any consequences.

[@BlueRGuy]

Funny, considering that most ships that got caught trespassing the Indonesian seas, got blown up and sunk by the Navy if they got caught. The crew got arrested instead tho

[@Happy357mag]

After a tank battle, the wrecks get removed for recycling. Some still have bodies inside. 🤔

[@rolandthethompsongunner64]

What about the countless fishing and commercial vessels that sank or were sunk ? They’re off limits to salvage too ? I feel if its in international waters and of value its legal salvage bodies or not.

[@benjaminlorenz2181]

I wouldn't be sad if the salvage vessel would sunk under unknown circumstances

[@Sagart999]

My understanding is that there is a premium price for pre-nuclear age steel as it is very useful for certain scientific experiments. That is a wholly separate question from someone disturbing a war grave.

[@wgowshipping]

Exactly the reason for the salvage!

[@cbroz7492]

Godless.communism

[@billme372]

@@cbroz7492 Isn't it more Capitalism under the protection of a dictatorship masquerading as communist?

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

​@@wgowshipping Are there not wrecks still in Scapa Flow that folks could legally salvage instead?

[@revpgesqredux]

​@@billme372 no

[@samstewart4807]

Does anyone know how much of which? ship has been salvaged?

[@neilradcliffe7398]

My Uncle Thomas died on the HMS Jupiter and it makes me sad that it could go the same way as the other 'salvaged' wargraves😢

[@kdenyer1]

Thanks for informing us😊

[@netpackrat]

This happens because the countries those ships belong to have the means, but lack the will to do anything about it. The next salvage vessel found loitering in the area over a WW2 shipwreck needs to join that vessel on the bottom, and dare the Chinese to do anything about it. That will put a stop to it.

[@regdor8187]

BS, If they want the remains of their loss, come and take them home !!! Otherwise STFU....

[@ComfyWombat]

As an Australian, this is literally the first I have heard of the desecration of the Perth. Boils my blood.

[@LWJCarroll]

They are Graves and should be respected as such! HMS Neptune North of Tripoli is where my Uncle Bills mortal remains are, in the Mediterranean. Laurie NZ.

[@CMDRSweeper]

Demand for non radiated steel have drastically dropped in recent years, so I doubt that is why these wrecks have been targetted. What I do know however is that China is spending enough iron / steel in making of items, construction (Non tofu dreg obviously) and other projects that require steel, that a couple of years ago they had problems getting proper scrap steel, and even the low grade stuff was used to allow them to operate. Since the prices and demand have soured, it would mean that gathering scrap from these vessels have started to become quite lucrative.

[@tedcity5861]

they'll use it for their clunker fighter jets.

[@garys_stuff]

This is the act of a nation (because let's be frank, nothing happens in China without official sanction) desecrating the graves of combatants to turn a buck. It shows the complete disregard China has for the sensitivities and beliefs of other countries, a complete disregard for the sacrifice made by so many for the common good (out of which China is doing very nicely, thank you) and the complete inability of the international community to do anything to stop them beyond some strongly worded communications.

[@chemech]

Heck, the CCP has no respect for Chinese traditions and culture... they care even less about foreign "barbarians" who aren't Han Chinese.

[@markiobook8639]

UK, USA, Netherlands and Australia NEVER requested any of the vessels to be maritime war graves. Despite the Commonwealth War Graves Commission being active in Indonesia since 1961. UK, USA, Australia had 50 years- half a century- to act and they did nothing. CWGC oversaw the re-internment of thousands of UK, US Dutch and Australian corpses to two major cemeteries. CWGC knew about the battle of Java. The Guardian Article 20 Dec 2016 "Can anything be done to stop the vanishing wwII shipwrecks of Java?"

[@markiobook8639]

@@chemech Hua ren= non Chinese. Wai go ren, gwai lo, etc= hu ren barbarian. Zongghuo Ren= Chinese. Zhong Guo= China= 中华 first character Zhong 中 means middle, central or central point. next character 华 means huá= luxurious, desirable, kingdom splendid, magnificent. The Chineses Sinoverse although they won't admit it's based on "horrible dark-skinned Indian's" Buddhist religion is mandala concept, where there are 5 directions, N, S, E, W and centre. Forbidden city is the centre of Madhya or Kendra alias Dharma alias pujjakendra= centre of mass. From madya or kendra is the purest, like a gradient disperses over radius. Ergo anyone not from Zhong Guo= hu ren, man zi,

[@chemech]

@@markiobook8639 Functionally, Chung guo is interpreted by the Mainlanders as "The Kingdom at the Center of the Universe" And, whichever government sits in Beijing takes it as religious faith that the center of the universe is in the Forbidden City. Oh, and I hear "Lao wai" used most often to refer to a non Chinese person... ;)

[@whakatu4life285]

Cry baby brits whining over all this tripe. So what if the wrecks have gone, how many people did the brits kill through a couple centuries of colonizing half the planet then raping those countries of resources and riches...? Fact is britan is but a hollowed out husk of it's former economic and military self and is now nothing more than another island nation dependant on imports to feed its people and fuel its waning economy. The BIG problem for the "brits" is that they still see themselves as a major world power which they are not, heck even the US military considers the Uk to be a 3rd tier force nowadays

[@geoffw86]

Outrageous😢

[@SunnySunny-jz8kg]

maybe an anti shipping mine that goes off when the clamshell gets to within 50ft of the surface

[@mikmik9034]

A Law [or Treaty] that cannot be enforced is merely a suggestion. [from a lecture c. 1970] My Mum says she lost Two Brothers [my uncles] in the Battle of the Java Sea.

[@markiobook8639]

How many Indonesians died because the hated Dutch illegally occupied their nation and sent the Japanese directly to Indonesia for shutting off the oil to Japan? The list of war crimes locations of Netherlands has been barely scratched- considering the Rawagede massacre was a civil trial it has set precedent for the hundreds of thousands of other cases.

[@mikmik9034]

@@markiobook8639 You forgot the French! The U.S. even tried to reestablish the French into Vietnam in the '60s. While murdering the black populations ghetto residends there.

[@HisMagnificence]

Lots of money committing piracy on Chinese thief and poaching ships.

[@daspotato895]

@@markiobook8639 And that justifies desecrating graves how? What of the British or Australian vessels?

[@markiobook8639]

@@daspotato895 As I have written before the Commonwealth War Graves Commission was in Indonesia since 1961. It had to arrange labour and transportation to disinter and reinter many remains into two large central cemeteries. If the CWGC could find through local recollections, soldiers half-remembered stories etc the location of the dead, use local labour, logistics, permission (a lot of bureaucratic manuevering)- then they could certainly write an official request for the maritime graves to be marked. Had UK, US or Australia done such a thing- there would have been a big show of co-operation between both parties including bathymetric and hydrologic surveying. Blame the governments for their misdeeds. If I type in google ÜK grave vandalism"- I get article after article of UK scrotes kicking over and destroying graveyards in the UK. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. I would assume allegedly "Christian" people would have that priceless wisdom of Christ, Lord, Saviour and the companion to the Mahdi, memorised.

[@louGriggs1944]

Very interesting report. I had seen something about this earlier. It really irritates me that they would do this. Off the subject - I saw you giving your expert commentary last night on the Discovery Channel's episode of "Engineering Catastrophes - Trouble in the Suez", a report on the Ever Given grounding. I am glad that the producers know where to go to get expert opinion. Great job sir. Thanks for that and this report.

[@markiobook8639]

UK, USA, Netherlands and Australia NEVER requested any of the vessels to be maritime war graves. Despite the Commonwealth War Graves Commission being active in Indonesia since 1961. UK, USA, Australia had 50 years- half a century- to act and they did nothing. CWGC oversaw the re-internment of thousands of UK, US Dutch and Australian corpses to two major cemeteries. CWGC knew about the battle of Java. The Guardian Article 20 Dec 2016 "Can anything be done to stop the vanishing wwII shipwrecks of Java?"

[@whakatu4life285]

Cry baby brits whining over all this tripe. So what if the wrecks have gone, how many people did the brits kill through a couple centuries of colonizing half the planet then raping those countries of resources and riches...? Fact is britan is but a hollowed out husk of it's former economic and military self and is now nothing more than another island nation dependant on imports to feed its people and fuel its waning economy. The BIG problem for the "brits" is that they still see themselves as a major world power which they are not, heck even the US military considers the Uk to be a 3rd tier force nowadays

[@apieceofdirt4681]

That’s not a Campbell College now University banner is it? OMG that’s a Buies Creek VFD plate as well so I know this is local. Greetings from up the road at Pinehurst. I haven’t ever heard of HMS Repulse or HMS POW wreck’s just disappearing. Aren’t those ships in pretty deep waters?

[@wgowshipping]

I teach at Campbell University.

[@jaymacpherson8167]

I wonder if the Chinese government knows about these activities, though they probably were informed by the BRITs upon learning of the activity. Or if it is businesses without government sanction doing this theft. Thank you for bringing up this important issue, as the value of that steel is very high .

[@texasred2702]

Of course they know, they probably subsidized it.

[@murdowatson2759]

@@texasred2702 All Chines companys are ultimately owner by the CCP.

[@dingoeatswolf3663]

Don’t worry, we can return the favour after they start their war with Taiwan….be plenty of scrap up for collection in that Taiwan strait 😂

[@jaymacpherson8167]

@@dingoeatswolf3663 Though sadly, the steel in that scenario would be post-atomic age…Not the stuff they’re stealing.

[@dingoeatswolf3663]

@@jaymacpherson8167 yes, though I was thinking more in terms of desecration of war graves. I’m sure that would create a patriotic stink if it were Chinese sailors down there. Highly unlikely the ‘west’ would go down that route anyway…respect for those that served.

[@Thepuffingyank]

i can't believe that china has sunk to such depths

[@wildkarrde3370]

This seems right up their alley actually.

[@Thepuffingyank]

I should have said I’m disappointed that China had sunk to such depths

[@breft3416]

Very punny.

[@Thepuffingyank]

@@breft3416 why thank you kind person 🙏

[@YourSocialistAutomaton]

How does the actions of few represent 1.4 billion people? This is like saying a few school shooters or terrorists represent a single country. Why are you supporting racism?

[@sticksandstoneswithmike.912]

Pre Los Alamos ( first nuke test ), era steel is useful in very sensitive instruments. Why? Because all steel made since that time is irradiated.

[@tubadaddy76]

I shared your story on our AMVETS post page. It's likely that no one would've ever learned about this dedecration of these war graves.

[@markiobook8639]

UK, USA, Netherlands and Australia NEVER requested any of the vessels to be maritime war graves. Despite the Commonwealth War Graves Commission being active in Indonesia since 1961. UK, USA, Australia had 50 years- half a century- to act and they did nothing. CWGC oversaw the re-internment of thousands of UK, US Dutch and Australian corpses to two major cemeteries. CWGC knew about the battle of Java. The Guardian Article 20 Dec 2016 "Can anything be done to stop the vanishing wwII shipwrecks of Java?"

[@mischafellner8943]

I’ve asked the train community about four trains that are sunken off the East Coast of the United States. But no one knows about them. There are four engines off our East Coast ( or was). They have a different track size. I believe they were on barges when they went underwater. Does anyone have information on these four train engines. I’ve seen video of a diver who brought up the bells( 20 year old video).

[@jasonbamford654]

This is very interesting, however I know nothing about the subject. My main question is, Why is this old rusting Iron so valuable that its worth going to all the effort to retrieve it ? You mentioned something about about radiation but didn’t go into a lot of detail? How is old iron better than newly created iron ?

[@nif977]

As you said there was an attempt made in 2015 to define what a wreck is but this attempt was not ratified. The British do not own the Prince of Wales wreck nor do any other nation own theirs except in US territorial waters where the US government claim all sunken wrecks belong to the USA and have salvaged many of them.

[@justforfun187]

Since this happens already for so many years without it being stopped by any of the nations involved, I don't see it ever being stopped. Or only when most wrecks are gone already.

[@renown16]

i have been checking on this topic for the last few years, it is horrible that they are scraping what are mass grave sites.

[@Roadghost88]

Salvage ship runs into WWII mine! Sinks mysteriously.

[@srg6532]

These countries mainly care about ships that were carrying gold and other precious items. The rules were probably made concerning whose gold it would be if a ship carrying precious items were discovered.

[@wizardgmb]

Given the state of surveillance from space that covers every square mile of the earth in a 48 hour period & pinpoint knowledge of the wreck locations why aren't these Chinese ships being caught in the act & tracked until boarding can be accomplished?

[@SeattlePioneer]

Because, quite properly, nobody cares. If affected nations wanted to bring up the remains of the dead, they could have done so for decades. But they really don't care ---it's a lot cheaper to call such sites "cemeteries and ignore them. Western archaeologists have dug up everyone they could find including Viking, Greek and Roman ships. Apparently the steel in these ships is valuable for modern purposes, and if that makes salvage worthwhile, they should be free to do so. The Mary Rose, a British warship sunk in 1545 was salvaged. Countries that have killed off millions of unborn human beings shouldn't get worked up over the dead that dissolved in the ocean decades ago with zero effort to recover those human remains.

[@markiobook8639]

Precisely.

[@tomriley5790]

@@SeattlePioneer The distinction made in the video is important - the Mary Rose wasn't salvaged, she was rasied as an archeological project and is now preserved, you can visit her in Portsmouth.

[@nairbvel]

@@SeattlePioneer The kind of salvage work you're referring to is neither safe, nor easy, nor inexpensive -- and in some cases has been technologically impossible. As far as your last comment goes, stop and think for a moment if someone walked into the cemetery where your family is buried and says, "hey, this is prime pre-cut stone" and tears out all the gravestones & masoleums.

[@SeattlePioneer]

@@nairbvel That is, of course, exactly what happens to abandoned cities over time. People re use the stone and other useful materials. Rome famously had a lot of Roman artifacts stripped of useful materials even when Rome was still occupied. There are THOUSANDS of steel ships corroding in the oceans just from WWII. Personally, I'd be glad to see them salvaged and reused if someone cares to do so.

[@timothycook2917]

It was recently announced that the wreck of the USS Mannert L. Abele was located off the shores of Okinawa Japan

[@Ob1sdarkside]

I saw somewhere that it's for metal that's not contaminated by nuclear fall out. Its used for making medical machines. Don't know if it's true though

[@richardrose9943]

Thee are grave sites absolutely sickening

[@alastairbarkley6572]

AFAIK, both the UK and the US already assert jurisdiction over 'war grave' wrecks both in their waters AND in international waters. Prince of Wales and Repulse are named as specifically protected against destructive salvage by the UK's Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. I'm rather dubious about how such a law could actually be enforced though. Naval guards on all wrecks, worldwide?

[@MIMALECKIPL]

Regular patrols either by air (anti-pirate) or by sea

[@alastairbarkley6572]

@@MIMALECKIPL There are hundreds and hundreds of such protected sites sspread all over the world. Your suggestion doesn't fly.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

You could always booby-trap them. They were warships. The deceased crew likely wouldn’t have objected to taking out a few more enemies from the grave…

[@alastairbarkley6572]

@@grahamstrouse1165 Just wrong. On every level...

[@franko1904]

Maybe Britain and the allied nations should return all the treasures looted from China when they invaded China to force it to buy opium to balance its trade deficit. In return, China may agree not to display these salvaged ships in its museum. NOTE: British Law made it illegal to sell opium, as far as the Brits and Americans are concerned, morality and laws do not apply to them when it comes to international relations, especially when they can force gunship diplomacy to steal and rape the East.

[@dissent9959]

There needs to be an active attempt to identify vessels engaging in such activities, and to sink them ensuring no survivors.

[@Maxvla]

I'm with you on the sinking, but not on the no survivors part. Detain the ship and force the crew to ditch or be pulled off, then scuttle the ship.

[@networknomad5600]

@@Maxvla Yeah, but then there are witnesses left to complain and kick up drama when they get back to their home country. Which I assure you, China will absolutely stir up shit over the smallest perceived slight.

[@dangurtler7177]

It isn’t like the crews of those Chinese salvage vessels have a choice in the matter.

[@Nemean-se5k]

@@dangurtler7177 theyre literally on a ship, they can go pretty much anywahere they want and claim asylum

[@dangurtler7177]

@@Nemean-se5k They don't have relatives at home in China? The CCP has been known to execute people and then send the bill for the cost of the execution to the family. I worked with a Chinese company on a project in Peru and the Chinese involved had genuine concerns about the implications of failure.