Choose...but Choose Wisely! Shadowdark versus Lamentations of the Flame Princess

[@ravenwulfgar]

I, too, have both and enjoy them each for different reasons.

[@t-shirtedhistorian]

Good overview Lord Matt! The nice thing about LOTFP is despite it not immediately having zero prep built in (hey the GM book is coming right?), it has such a robust library of adventures and weird crushers to get you into a game pretty quickly. I like Shadowdark as well and I'm just stunned at the sheer volume of 3rd party supplements already available for it.

[@lordmatteus]

It is a very popular game for creators for sure. It is a subtle strength of the system: infinitely customizable, which, in my opinion, is a critical feature of the OSR games.

[@quantus5875]

The other bonus of these OSR and OSR-like games (like SD) is you have an incredible library of old TSR D&D/AD&D, Judges Guild, RoleAids Mayfair Games, Goodman Games, DCC adventures, etc that can easily be adapted (with almost zero work) to run with almost any OSR/OSR-like game. We're talking 100s of adventures. One thing I've never tries is running a LofTP adventure with an OSR game -- something I'll have to try -- guess never really thought of doing that -- because Lamentations is such a great game system in its own right.

[@lordmatteus]

@@quantus5875 i actually wanted to use Isle of the Unknown with the Rules Cyclopedia, maybe import rules for ancient Greek armor and weapons to give the isle an ancient Greece feel and tone.

[@paddysparlor]

Thanks for the break down! I love it! I’m still not sold on either yet. I need to sit down and play them first

[@scottosau]

I think that's the main thing, playing some games regardless

[@jamessimpson9798]

Exactly why we're here 😅 the informed info, not just hype 🤓🙏🏾

[@lordmatteus]

@@jamessimpson9798 haha! Thanks!

[@ThePaladinWorld]

Great review. Thank you!

[@quantus5875]

Would be interesting to see more comparisons. Especially SD with a game that is more thematically similar to it, as Lamentations "thematically" is very different. Comparing Lamentations against anything else doesn't really work as there is no other fantasy OSR game that I know of that is similar to it thematically. You really have to start looking at Horror TTRPGs to get that weird vibe that Lamentation has.

[@lordmatteus]

@@quantus5875 that's a fair point. I made this video because someone asked me which do I prefer. I feel it's an okay comparison because both are deadly games for the unwary. I like your suggestion tho. I will think about it.

[@FlintFireforge]

Great comparison. I enjoy running/playing Shadowdark. I love creating monsters, for any game, with the Random Esoteric Creature Generator from LotFP.

[@quantus5875]

btw: Not sure if I understand the title of this video about "choose but choose wisely..." -- as they are both great games -- can't go wrong with either IMO -- and that's appears to be what you were also saying -- and the covers to LotFP are a dead giveaway that the content is super edgy. If you looked at the cover and you still bought it -- and complained about edgy content -- you have no excuse.

[@lordmatteus]

@@quantus5875 honestly? It's just click bait. Lol. I have no shame!

[@quantus5875]

@@lordmatteus Got it. Yeah, I figured it was just a click bait title. 😂 For a while I thought you preferred one or the other, but after watching the video it's obvious you like both of these games.

[@atinybard6594]

Oh my god someone talking about LotFP in 2024?! Is this a fever dream??

[@quantus5875]

Right. Just stumbled on this channel. Have a lot of videos to watch now. LotFP rocks!!

[@lordmatteus]

@@quantus5875 I fell in love with this game in 2019. Great system, great product line, and Raggi is a cool dude. Thanks for checking out my channel!

[@juauke]

Great comparison, I like both games

[@juauke]

Love LotFP content even to put it into other games I used adventures and supplements for my EZD6 game I did this year

[@lordmatteus]

@@juauke Thanks for watching! I do the same. I was putting together a Rules Cyclopedia game in Mystara and I thought about placing a few LotFP modules on the map just for grins. lol

[@juauke]

@@lordmatteus you're welcome! Great idea, I always love to put its adventures since they hit very different from others I used (and my players played through) Tower of the Stargazer, a small part of Midvinter (since they didn't wanna get close to the village itself and burned the inn off) and some Frostbitten and Mutilated which created probably the best moment in the campaign: a death by moon x)

[@lordmatteus]

@@juauke one of my favorite TPKs happened at The Tower of the Stargazer. It's a great module!

[@juauke]

@@lordmatteus awesome module and very beginner GM-friendly

[@accessyourinnerlight971]

Or enjoy both. I'm running a hybrid Swords & Wizardry/Shadowdark campaign right now. Swords & Wizardry is the base, but there are a lot of questions that the Swords & Wizardry rules don't answer (they're meant to be DM-fiated, I guess), but I prefer a little bit more structure. Fortunately Shadowdark does answer those questions. Also, the rules of Shadowdark are wonderful at coming up with things on the fly, so if the players go somewhere you didn't expect or try to follow a red herring, you can come up with answers very quickly. For a long-form campaign, I'd stick with a ruleset designed for a long-form campaign (whereas Shadowdark seems to be designed around shorter campaigns, similar to the 5e D&D ruleset) but use the Shadowdark rules and book for inspiration (Travel to interesting places (hexcrawl/overland/dungeon generator) meet interesting people (npc generator), kill them and take their stuff (treasure generator)).

[@juddgoswick2024]

LotFP is its own thing - and a labor of love for Raggi and crew. Shadowdark sounds, and reads, as very fun. I need to play it soon.

[@fredericmanson441]

Lamentations of the Flame Princess?? IMMEDIAT SUBSCRIPTION. no more to say!!

[@lordmatteus]

@@fredericmanson441 you honor me, sir!

[@mykediemart]

So which one of these is best for my coffee shop / prom campaign?

[@lordmatteus]

Lol. I don't do WotC reviews. Mainly because the videos would be less than a minute as all I would be saying is that they are absolute trash. Haha

[@Dracoaurion]

Baptism of Fire.

[@Zr0din]

@0.30 A-Men! This can get expensive, and we need to make informed decisions!

[@SolracZapzap]

LOTFP all the way.

[@VhaidraSaga]

💯

[@quantus5875]

@@VhaidraSaga Third -- LotFP rocks!! Nice seeing a channel showing it some love!!

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

@@SolracZapzap Hyperboria

[@ChuckThorin]

Great video. And yes, I need back to back the Shucked Oyster. I think the LOTFP Specialist is much more flexible and interesting than the Thief. And LOTFP does have a random progression option. You have to back to Green Devi Face No 5. That all being said, if my group wanted a trad D&D/Fantasy game then I'd lean to Shadowdark. Love it and it's a great game. If they wanted something weird and out there then LOTFP.

[@lordmatteus]

I forgot about that! Thanks!

[@ChuckThorin]

@@lordmatteus No prob.

[@quantus5875]

btw: I just subscribed -- anyone who covers and likes LotFP is worth subscribing to in my book.

[@djanny8951]

LOTFP .. theres nothing like it

[@griffithmorgan4966]

Dude - Champions of ZED: Zero Edition Dungeoneering rules from The Lost Dungeons of Tonisborg. It's only 30 bucks for everything, including DM advice and an entire 10 level Mega-Dungeon. The game is easily expanded with a copy of OD&D. Sorry, gotta to do some self promo here. :P

[@lordmatteus]

No worries, Griff! I'm all about promoting indie content. Tonnisborg is a beautiful book. I have both the hard and soft cover (table copy). I am looking forward to running it. I just have to find the time. It is a contender for the next campaign I run once my Lamentations of Elemental Evil Campaign is completed. Thank you for the comment!

[@quantus5875]

Going to have to check this game out.

[@quantus5875]

I don't mind the promo. Where's this $30 dollar deal -- sounds interesting.

[@VhaidraSaga]

Is love to see you compare Swords & Wizardry: Complete Revised and LotFP once the referee book comes out later this year.

[@lordmatteus]

@@VhaidraSaga are you saying I should buy a new game for purposes of this video idea!? Twist my arm! 😉

[@VhaidraSaga]

@@lordmatteus *twist, twist, twist*

[@parttimed.m.1111]

To me, shadowdark. Lotfp is better if u want human based "weird" adventures. Shadowdark hits that fantasy vibe a bit more for me.

[@quantus5875]

Liked your video! -- and it was the second part of your video that was the winner. The main difference is the tone -- i.e. do you want dark/grim fantasy SD or like you said do you want edgy weird fantasy/horror (LotFP). The two pictures you showed I think capture the difference in tone perfectly. The simplicity argument is a little bit deceiving as yes I'd agree that SD is a little bit simpler -- around a "3" on a scale of 1 to 10, versus maybe a "3.3" on a scale of 1 to 10, but the difference is really negligible. The reality is that almost all OSR games are in that 3 to 4 region of complexity. For reference I'd put D&D 5e at around a 5 or a 6 and Pathfinder 2e at around a 7. Both SD and LotFP are super easy to learn and play IMO. On the house ruling front -- I've house ruled out the torch mechanic in SD (really dislike timers in any game), and in LofTP I've made a few house rules that make LorFP characters a little more survivable. I like both LotFP and SD -- and also like Labyrinth Lord, OSE, and Basic Fantasy. We're in a golden age of OSR and OSR-like games -- so many wonderful games to choose from!

[@lordmatteus]

@@quantus5875 the best part of the OSR is the flexibility and malleability of the systems. I've house rules some stuff for LotFP to provide players with some choices at character creation, but not much. I wrote about them here: lordmatteus.wordpress.com/2022/08/04/backgrounds-for-lotfp-dark-fantasy/ They have been tweaked since that last writing but my players love them. Let me know what you think! Thanks for watching!

[@quantus5875]

@@lordmatteus Like your list!!

[@knghtbrd]

I choose … yes. I have both, I use both. LotFP stuff works well in Shadowdark with little adaptation. But a few rules from Lamentations just slot right in.

[@lolsonchciwy5022]

Honestly - D&D did a great job presenting what can be done with dice. So much so that through 51 years everyone played with the concepts and tweaked the system. IMO, the d20 sphere is a great point of entry for new lads and lasses, designers too - but frankly speaking, it's rather dull in its settings and most important > mechanics. Don't get me wrong - there's a lot of great systems and settings, some with very weird tricks of their own! Yet I'd rather wait another 5 or 10 years of TTRPG drought than see 10 more clones or rules-compilation set in dark medieval or high fantasy just to keep niché afloat mainstream! Well, I'm just fussy about TTRPGs due to being blind and deaf to "10 things making Shadowdark/LotFP/Knave/Cairn/Into the Odd special" while playing on tweaked d20. Also, IMO TTRPG base is conversation, the game is secondwise despite being crucial to the gameplay yet not roleplay - and I feel that second is more about gambling with possibility of changing chances by both sides, and first is more dominant about everything as it also calls for and decides about mechanics. That is why I am overeacting xD Tho' I am not into PbtA or Blades (they're quite good in some rules and mechanics, in some they are just bothersome), gathering all this "slander" - after seeing OSRs, new, old, DCC, 5e, Pathfinder, WoD and more, I am barely thinking about buying anything new as I view all so similar. Tho' I am glad that western TTRPG scene isn't as stagnant as Japanese where everybody played, made and thought about the same 2d6s xD Have a great one, mate! Godspeed!

[@thereluctanthireling]

I still refer the B/X variants, Dragonslayer RPG has been my jam of late.

[@quantus5875]

LotfP is a B/X variant -- maybe you mean games that didn't deviate from B/X as much?

[@thereluctanthireling]

@@quantus5875 you answered your own question.

[@quantus5875]

@@thereluctanthireling Got it. Yes -- I see what you mean you probably prefer stuff like LotFP, Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord, OSE, etc. -- that are all BX-based. Never heard of Dragonslayer RPG will have to look it up.

[@quantus5875]

@@thereluctanthireling Looked at this game -- or at least read the description looks interesting! And +5 for the cover art!! Looked at it and said -- that looks like a Jeff Easley cover -- and it is. Wish more OSR companies would do that get Easley, Ellison, Caldwell, Brom to do some art for them. Really ups the old school feel -- to have artwork done by the masters of the 80s/90s.

[@thereluctanthireling]

@@quantus5875 agreed Dragonslayer has amazing art, it's a little pricey for the print book, but he spared no expense to hire great artists for the bestiary and art throughout. The system is more of a hybrid of B/X with some of the options from AD&D.

[@bhorrthunderhoof4925]

I buy LotFP nearly since the publisher exists and I got dragged into Shadowdark RPG too. Like Lordmatteus very well explained two completely different styles of play are adressed. If you love a game where your mind, moral and even worldview as a player is challenged, shaken and eventually even shattered, give LotFP a try. If these is too much for you (or you players), please stay with Shadowdark RPG. This is how I experience those two. But we all experience life and the world, even ficitional ones, differently. Cheers folks. 🍻

[@quantus5875]

Lamentations is awesome!! Don't think anything in it really challenges my worldview (and I'm familiar with the themes of most of the adventures) -- but definitely not a game for everyone and harder to find players willing to give it a go (and better to make sure someone understands some of the themes in some of the adventures. The GM should tell the players what the "themes" of the adventure are -- and if they are not ok with them -- then don't play that adventure). Really glad a game like LotFP exists.

[@JollyRoger-1786]

Excellent video, very informative, thank you! I backed SD and I have played and referee a score of game so far. I haven't played much LotFP (only a couple of games), but while I don't enjoy the setting that much, I do like some aspects of it, and I do like the system quite a lot. When I play DnD, I typically play BX by way of retroclones, mainly OSE (with some homerules). I'm guessing OSE, shares the tone of SD, and compares like classic DnD vs the tone of LotFP.

[@lordmatteus]

LotFP is really more of a vibe and type of module. I like the ruleset but you can use the modules and supplements for almost any game. Thanks for watching...

[@phoenixknight8837]

Good review!

[@cyntogia]

Why haven't I followed yet.

[@lordmatteus]

I don't know! Lol. Thanks for watching!

[@bigsamrice]

Great comparing

[@Joshuazx]

Good video!

[@rynowatcher]

LotFP does have torch mechanics and rules for timing them. In my mind, it makes more sense than Shadow Dark because having 10 minutes per exploration action lets you time out actions versus Shadow Dark you can pick a lock in the time it takes to roll a die, versus it taking 10 minutes in LotFP.

[@lordmatteus]

@@rynowatcher what I meant by torch mechanics was like the ones in Shadowdark. But yes, LotFP does have exploration turns.

[@rynowatcher]

@@lordmatteus I am kind of partial to Veins of the Earth's take on touches and darkness, personly. Generally, I am not a fan of the Shadow Dark rules because it makes the torches too much of a known quantity out of game. You will might as well make touches light magically on the wall if I can set a timer in real life so I can just not worry about it. It is just taking the touches out of the game with more steps.

[@lordmatteus]

@@rynowatcher i like Veins. I disagree with your assessment about the torch timer. The timer adds an element of tension and it is something you need to keep track of. Furthermore, enemies actively target the light. The light can go out requiring a new timer.

[@rynowatcher]

@@lordmatteus not trying to talk you into anything; play what you like, but I mean, enimies targeting your light can happen in litterally any game. That by itself does not really make it more dynamic. The creatures attacking the light was also brought up in Veins of the Earth too. Knave and 5 touches deep has a resource die where a touch goes out randomly, if you want dynamic light sources. Fun trick to shake thing up, BTW. You also get into weid situations in Shadow Dark where you can take week in game off of one touch because it takes you that long to excavate a collapsed tunnel and it lasts one roll in real life, but it might only last 1 fight because the magic user cannot be bothered to read the magic rules ahead of time. It puts a premium on encounters instead of exploration. Which, again, you can just set a timer for in real life and forget about it till the timer goes off. Not really a mechanic that emphasizes torches or dynamic situations in my mind.

[@quantus5875]

On my end -- really dislike timer mechanics. I like some of the social aspects of playing, so having a more chill kind of session. That being said nothing negative on SD on any other game that uses timer mechanics -- so easy to house rule out.

[@BanjoSick]

Wearing a cap in-house? Did you grow up in a tent?

[@lordmatteus]

Barn? Maybe. Tent? No.

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

LotFP is grittier, a true OSR but Shadowdark is a good O5R, becoming an excellent bridge to proper OSR. Anyways, I think both are bested by Hyperboria (my favourite).

[@lordmatteus]

This is a game I have not read or played. I keep hearing good things about it. I may have to remedy that. Thanks for your comment!

[@t-shirtedhistorian]

@@lordmatteus Hyperborea has one thing you'll appreciate: stat requirements for classes. None of that pick whatever you want to play. You roll your stats and if you don't have enough STR or whatever to be a Barbarian, tough titty.

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

@@lordmatteus Try checking previous editions just because of their art. Hyperborea 3e solves all the alleged issues. It's a major influence on creating my own OSR.

[@quantus5875]

@@t-shirtedhistorian Reminds me of the Paladin in AD&D 1e -- so hard to qualify for -- so if you rolled well enough to be a Paladin -- you chose Paladin. So glad they changed the name of the game to Hyperborea. Yes -- another great game -- with it's own unique tone.

[@ViviBuchlaw]

What exactly is your definition of OSR? Or O5R for that matter?

[@brentnorton1602]

When I read Shadowdark I get a nostalgic feel and love of B/X. If Shadowdark would have came out before 5e it would be considered Basic 5e. I don’t mean that as a slam. She had a great way of breaking down 5e D&D and going back to a ruling not rules. It has an ease to it. Just like B/X it has a great chassis that you can add and subtract anything to want and make it feel how you want. My B1 and B2 was filled with Eldritch Horror and we used Shadowdark to do it. Now I have heard great things LotFP and I and plan on getting one day, but as a DM it’s easier for me to run a system a d20 and darkness to it as I need to.

[@quantus5875]

Starter kit Basic D&D 5e is super easy. Don't get me wrong, I like Shadowdark but the only reason D&D 5e is a medium complexity level game is the addition of feats, tons of spells, and character options, etc. If you strip is down like in one of the starter kits for low level play -- D&D Basic 5e is super, super easy to learn and play. Taught many players to play 5e using the first D&D starter kit playing Lost Mine of Phandelver -- IMO almost as simple as Shadowdark. Also, I play Pathfinder 2e a more complex game (although again a brilliant Beginner Box to learn - better than D&D's starter kit IMO) and it's just a different kind of fun -- people in PF relish in their characters and tweaking and customizing them (PF takes customer customization to the insane level) -- IMO that's half the fun of playing a game like Pathfinder. No wrong or right -- simplicity is good and some people prefer that -- and that's what most of the OSR-style games provide -- but if you are getting something you really enjoy for that extra complexity -- that can be great too. That's why I play a range of games from Castles & Crusades, D&D, Labyrinth Lord, LotFP, Pathfinder 2e, Basic Fantasy, The Dark Eye, and OSE. They all provide something different. I'm actually thinking of starting to play Tales of the Valiant -- a way of plating D&D 5e without forking money over to WoTC -- and easy -- I think (I'll find out) to get player's to switch over.

[@TonyCrenshawsLatte]

LotFP is awesome for having a strong flavor, and SD is awesome for NOT having a strong flavor. They both have their uses. I'm happy that we have a choice to enjoy one or the other, or both. Life is good. Excellent video!! Cheers!!

[@strawpiglet]

Great review, I like seeing two games compared for context.

[@LaserCat006]

Just found your channel! I second using lotp modules with SD rules. Makes things way more disturbing. I backed the oyster, so I can't wait to get that too. Keep up the awesome vids. Subbed!

[@lordmatteus]

@@LaserCat006 thank you very much!

[@Strangepaper]

Hyperborea DCC Mork Borg Shadowdark - with a slice of UVG

[@quantus5875]

My favorite OSR or OSR-like games: Labyrinth Lord (closest to AD&D 1e -- which is my favorite D&D version), Basic Fantasy (best value, and super fun, and free content for years), OSE (very similar to Basic Fantasy, also super fun and clean system) and Lamentations of the Flame Princess (love the dark tone -- just wish I could find more people willing to play dark games like this one). Honorable mentions: OSRIC -- I just like LL a little bit more and Shadowdark (well done game) I'm not familiar with Hperborea -- have seen reviews - and definitely looks very interesting and wouldn't mind trying it.

[@stevemanart]

If you want a modern game but with an Old School feel then you got Dungeon Crawl Classics. If you want a kooky setting built into your modern-feeling NuSR game, there's Mork Borg and Break!! If you want an entry level to OSR, play Basic Fantasy. If you want a mostly accurate emulation of BX without having to pay WotC for PoDs or deal with 40 year old books, play Old School Essentials If your nostalgia is for different editions, you got Swords and Wizardry, OSRIC, Gold & Glory, etc. If you are a middle-years grog who just wants to flex that you've been around since the start of OSR, then play Labyrinth Lord. The genre is way too saturated and Shadowdark is grift that got ushered into accolades and awards via nepotism, literally bribing reviewers prerelease, and creative bankruptcy in the OSR community at large. Even though LotFP isn't enough to a departure mechanically to really set it apart from BX to really justify its own existence, it at least has an identity via its extensive setting support to make it worth if not playing at least worth cribbing ideas from.

[@quantus5875]

Love your list!! I know some people don't consider Castles & Crusades OSR -- but easily my favorite OSR-like game -- another muscle flexer as it came out before OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord. I started playing C&C in 2005 - a year after it was released. Although some could argue that the ultimate OSR muscle flexer would be playing OD&D in the 70s. Playing an OSR game before the game was OSR!! On the Nostalgia end you missed Blueholme. There are other Holmes variants but that is the most well-known one. Also surprised no one has come out with an OSR variant based on the Rules Cyclopedia yet. I'd also add that after OSRIC that Labyrinth Lord with the advanced book it is also super close to AD&D 1e. Not as close as OSRIC but close. So if you like AD&D 1e -- LL is a great option. After C&C -- my favorite OSR and OSR-like games are Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, OSE, and Lamentations of the Flame Princess (in no set order). I play each for different reasons.

[@lordmatteus]

@@stevemanart no one was bribed during the marketing of this game. Questing Beast always asks for money and everyone knows this. No one else got money. This is a sad and pernicious lie peddled by the authors of fantasy heartbreakers whose mouths are filled with sour grapes. They will remain in obscurity until they figure out that the hobby is a business and a business needs to market itself.

[@quantus5875]

@@lordmatteus Yes, agreed The Arcane Library was completely on the up and up. Her mistake was probably that she should have never done the review by QB (although he was up front about it in his video). Yeah, Shadowdark is just a story about building up a loyal customer base with her 5e supplementary products and then launching her own game by leveraging her fan base and through other excellent marketing efforts. I welcome her success and it is well deserved. What does irritate me a little -- and I guess it goes with any game that develops a hyper loyal fan base -- is that ~5% of the SD fans are that all like -- this game is the greatest, it won all these Ennie awards, see it is the greatest, blah, blah, blah -- and if you try to criticize SD for anything you get jumped on. Yeah -- that just gets super irritating. SD is a great game -- but so is Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, OSE, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, etc. Also, I do want to say that -- all this "we're the best" attitude does not come from The Arcane Library herself -- I think she is a wonderful person. It's some of her hyper loyal fans that are the problem. In the end, why is Shadowdark better than LL, Basic Fantasy, Lamentations, OSE? - Can't really get an answer -- because there isn't one -- it all becomes these subjective reasons -- or it's stuff like it's such a simple game (yeah and so are almost all the other OSR games), or layout and design (yeah -- check out OSE or LotFP), or the torch mechanic is so awesome (yeah -- well that was borrowed from Torchbearer and I actually dislike timer mechanics and house rule that out when I play SD) -- and then finally -- well it just feels better. Plenty of incredible OSR games that all provide a lightly different value proposition. Again, Shadowdark is a great game -- but so is LL, Basic Fantasy, LotFP, OSE of the one's I play. And I hear tons of great things about Hyperborea, DCC, Swords & Wizardry, and others. Again, we're lucky to have so many fantastic OSR and OSR-like games. In fact, sometimes I think too many games. 😂

[@lordmatteus]

@@quantus5875 i should probably do a video about my thoughts on a game systems and when to use them as I do not believe there "can be only one" like each is competing for survival in a Highlander movie. Lol. It all depends on what experience you are looking for.

[@quantus5875]

@@lordmatteus Love your Highlander analogy. 😂 There's pros and cons for any game -- the problem is you can't please everyone with your design choices, as people have different preferences. And there are also other considerations that go beyond the game itself -- the actual one super strength that D&D 5e has is that is so easy to find players -- the only other games that are not bad IMO in this area is Pathfinder and Call of Chthulhu (but still not as easy as D&D 5e). I really like this game called The Dark Eye (beautiful game) -- would play it a TON if I could -- but yeah it's a German game that was translated to English. It's the #1 TTRPG in Germany (the German version of the game is called Das Shwarze Auge) and would be super easy to find players in Germany -- but yeah good luck finding players in the U.S. Only way for me to play is GM the game and cobble together a group -- fortunately VTT makes this a possible effort.

[@wileydutkiewicz3569]

SHIT. Easy, Lamentations. Shadowdark is a nepobaby product.

[@quantus5875]

I feel like The Arcane Library (TAL) is very familiar with OSR games. Whenever I look at SD - I feel like TAL definitely was familiar with DCC (borrowed many ideas from DCC like roll to cast), Lamentation of the Flame Princess (edginess -- although LotFP is the king of edginess), OSE and LofTP (design and layout). TAL is also good friends with the designer of ICRPG -- that's where the torch mechanic comes from -- which in turn was borrowed from a TTRPG called Torchbearer. I also feel like TAL is familiar with Knave and other light TTRPGs. Nothing wrong with borrowing -- there are pretty much almost zero new ideas -- so everyone has to borrow. SD is a good game IMO -- but so is LL, OSE, Basic Fantasy, LotFP, DCC, Swords & Wizardry, etc...

[@shaner90]

Uhhhh, the torch mechanics in shadowdark did not come from Torchbearer? Torches burn for 2 "turns" in Torchbearer, they burn for 1 hour of REAL world time in shadowdark. Completely diverse mechanics. Especially cuz a "turn" in Torchbearer is not specifically 10 mins or ever 4 hours, it's vague and narrative based.

[@quantus5875]

@@shaner90 Not saying it was borrowed verbatim -- idea was tweaked -- Torch bearer uses a timer mechanic. I think they call it the grind -- and Torchbearer treats light as a limited resource. I've heard that TAL borrowed some ideas from ICRPG (from what I understand she's friends with the creator of that game) and that game uses timers for many things and it uses zone mechanics -- which is where I think TAL borrowed that idea. Not sure as I'm not familiar with ICRPG.

[@shaner90]

@quantus5875 cool, yea I see what you're saying. The grind very much attacks the light and pretty much everything else hah

[@quantus5875]

@@shaner90 Yeah -- when I say TAL borrowed these ideas -- I mean she borrowed them in a "general" sense -- TAL then tweaked them for SD. To be fair to TAL -- almost "nothing" is original these days -- we're talking about a very mature industry/hobby that's been around for 50 years -- I feel like the last big burst of innovation was in the 2000s in the narrative and story-based areas (and I dislike narrative/story-based kinds of games). 😂