Christians Probe the Paulogia Deconversion Origin Story

Paulogia had been someone who was incredibly active in Christian ministry at all levels, went to Bible College to dig deep into his belief system, memorized most of the New Testament and taught kids to do the same, and devoted most of his waking hours to fully living his Christian faith.
And when he made the simple “mistake” of setting out to learn what “those lying scientists” had to say about dinosaurs, he had a road-to-Damascus experience in reverse. He found the scientific evidence for evolution so overwhelming and the YECist counterarguments so flimsy, that he not only rejected his faith, but he became a man-with-a-mission. The main target of his new-found ministry is Young Earth Creationism and its leaders.
Boyd Blundell and Luke Jeffrey Janssen of the Recovering Evangelicals podcast sat down with him to investigate the ruins.
Recovering Evangelicals
#25 YECist 2nd response to science - reject faith
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[@TirarADeguello]

I found this a good open discussion, they took the time to listen, and let you talk in depth about being ostracized by family and friends. No one should have to go through what you did.

[@jaebird3077]

Its so helpful to me. I am currently on the line of letting my parents believe I agree with them or being attacked for my true beliefs. It's so scary

[@derp195]

Fancy seeing you here! I agree, it was really refreshing to listen in on an open, fair, honest discussion.

[@daxbruce3491]

Not even LBGTQ kids?

[@daxbruce3491]

@@jaebird3077 they are just expressing God's love. 😆 🤣 😂

[@daxbruce3491]

@Fabian Darius you're a doush

[@Cellidor]

When Paul is talking about all of the things he lost just because he stopped believing in Christianity; friends, job, connections, spouse, almost the kids even....all I can think about are those people who ignorantly say "What's wrong with Christianity? What harm does it cause?" That's the harm it causes. That's it right there. It destroys peoples lives for _simply not believing in old stories._ You can't point to something that does that and say it's 'harmless'.

[@Cellidor]

@North Sea Pirate Dogmatic beliefs, perhaps, but not all beliefs in general. Trouble is religions very often encourage the dogmatic aspects, if not by its tradition than by outright rules.

[@MossyMozart]

Cult behavior. Think as we do and do not "contaminate" yourself with non-cult beliefs. They cannot stand up to scrutiny, so fear is strong within the cults.

[@johnchaky9424]

I particularly respect your decision to mirror the conversation that occured after you left it. Class act!

[@TheDizzleHawke]

Yes! Full disclosure.

[@jonathanpark7245]

Agreed. Paul you are the best

[@TheDizzleHawke]

Author Dan Plouff Info, ASMR, and Gaming dude. You’re funny.

[@jamesboyd5573]

@Author Dan Plouff Info, ASMR, and Gaming reading that made my brain bleed

[@klumaverik]

When you dropped the Ken hamm book and realized that there has to be a better answer than that I totally related to it. That is a very important part.

[@EnglishMike]

Excellent interview, and it was very generous of you to keep the post-interview segment where they attempt to Christsplain why you failed to remain a Christian after rejecting Evangelicalism. I am one of those people who posted a critical comment on the Eric Hovind video you talked about, but not because you did it, but because of all the comments about Eric sounding like a reasonable guy, appearing to forget the damage Hovind's ministry wreaks on the education of America's children.

[@timberry4709]

14:01 - - "One of the dangers...is travel. Changing location, changing context, is a real danger." So are they admitting Christians need to maintain an echo chamber? Not allow in any unapproved ideas? And they are fine with that?

[@NDHFilms]

Tim Berry To lightly steel-man what the hosts said: They were saying that if you grow up in an evangelical community, without much to challenge your perspective, then traveling will challenge those perspectives. Later on, they say it’s important for Christians to hear different perspectives and reflect on what they believe in. The hosts believe that a faith that has never been challenged is a shallow faith. Paul himself pushes back on this, he was a creationist the whole time he lived in San Francisco, a far cry from rural Saskatchewan. Then, consider how Ray Comfort or Ken Ham have been all over the world, and it’s obviously not affected their views.

[@timberry4709]

@@NDHFilms Thanks, just checking. It did sound at odds to what else they were saying.

[@dj33036]

@@NDHFilms The money justifies everything!

[@onyxtay7246]

@@NDHFilms To build on that, they specifically mentioned social control. If your entire social structure is based on shared religion then any risk to your faith is a risk to your way of life. If you give up religion you may have to give up many of your relationships. Edit: We can see this with Paul. He lost a ton of connections because he left the faith, basically having to rebuild his worldview and his life at the same time. So what happens when you leave the social control? Nobody in the group asked these hard questions, doubt was seen as a vice. But now you find these problems, you're free to ask questions, and your old in-group is doesn't have the same grip on you. Those questions can eventually break down the old (flawed) beliefs. It makes perfect sense that these guys would have a problem with strict social controls and an "all or nothing" attitude towards belief. They're an unstable foundation that threatens the entire structure.

[@jursamaj]

Instead, they've gone with the usual happy-clappy, believe whatever you want style of christianity…

[@damianthefreak666]

I like you Paul. Your maybe one of the few religion critics who (to my knowledge) has not been rude in any way. I've never even heard you call someone dumb or an idiot. Now I am not saying you've never been like that (because everyone has done something bad at least once in their life) but you are so professional and it's awesome!

[@johnlinden7398]

A MOST COHERENT AND ENLIGHTENING CONVERSATION PROVIDING BALANCED VIEWPOINTS TO HELP PEOPLE....GET REAL AND GET RID OF THE PRESUPPOSITIONAL NONSENSE SO MANY STILL HOLD ON TO !

[@TheDizzleHawke]

If you’re not already familiar, check out Anthony Magnabosco’s channel. He does random interviews called “street epistemology.”

[@ericpierce3660]

@Skeptic Psychologist Interesting. Both were useful in my case. I first ran across atheists in print and on youtube who used reason and sometimes humor to point out flaws in my beliefs, and it was good to see they weren't horrible people as I'd a'ways been led to believe. But later on hearing a few atheists explode in exasperation at the inanities they kept having to deal with shocked me out of my complacency and made me take a good hard look at the creationist beliefs I was raised with. I totally agree with Paulogia's approach when he said he made a conscious effort to avoid vulgarity in his videos. Fundamentalist Christian indoctrination and sheltering is so strong that if he said "fuck" , well, that's it, many Christians wouldn't listen to anything else he had to say, they'd just walk away.

[@gowdsake7103]

@Skeptic Psychologist Plus its FUN

[@DerrickMims]

Seth Andrews is usually quite good about being a non monstrous atheist. There’s room for Tom & Cecil or the GAM Crew, but there’s also room for this kind of conversation.

[@teddy1234599]

1967: MY DECONVERSION STORY. From 1963-7 I was in a Catholic-Carmelite (the ones who wear all brown) Junior Seminary for high school [NEXT-DAY ADDITION: I was studying to become a Carmelite priest.] I had been raised by a very conservative, very religious mother (and a father who let her decide all such things). What started my deconversion was WOMEN. SEXILY-CLAD WOMEN: It was endlessly said (and believed) that "if a woman/girl dresses sexy and gets raped; it's her fault!" I knew about nothing about women back then; but I DID know that you don't blame the victim for the crime. When I started to raised doubts to the religious authorities at the school - I began to get an inkling about what MILD opposition to ANY basic Catholic Church teaching entailed. THE VIETNAM WAR: These were the days of Pope John Paul (the 1st, I suppose, in retrospect). Two of the many changes were: the Mass was now in English (not Latin) and we seminary students would lead the mid-Mass prayers. They went as follows: Student: "For the Pope in Rome, we pray to the Lord." Congregation's response: "Lord hear our prayer." Student: For our parents ... Student: For our men fighting & dying in Vietnam ... One day I thought, "Wait, my 'all-loving' god takes sides in human wars???" So, when it was my next turn to lead the mid-Mass prayers eventually I said, "For ALL the people fighting & dying in Vietnam ..." AND ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE. MY LIFE TURNS INTO A PSYCHOLOGICAL HELL ON EARTH: During the next two years, until I graduated, the school's authorities went to war on me. My always straight-A grades tumbled (though I was just as smart and studied just as hard). I was not allowed to have any friends. Intimidation was daily, hourly, constant, draining, demoralizing. My "guaranteed future in Hell" was a focal "teaching point". I had almost nightly night-mares; questioned everything about my self-worth; started having suicidal thoughts - that, after a while, I didn't try to fight off. Frankly, I don't know how I "survived" those two years. But I did manage to graduate, barely. DROPPING RELIGIONS: CATHOLICISM, XTIANITY, ALL RELIGIONS: Upon graduation (in '67) I had had it with Catholicism - THEY drove me away. I next turned to other forms of Xtianity. The one thing I summed-up from the existence & functioning of all the thousands of Xtian sects was: They ALL Push Arrogant-Sectarianism - too great self-faith & sense of self-worth; too much derogatory stands towards EVERYBODY else - heck, if you believed "wrong"; you'd suffer the worst torture possible every second for a TRILLION YEARS; renewable at that time by the "all-loving god". FROM BIBLE-MEMORIZED TO TOTAL REJECTION OF IT: I took a serious look at the other major religions: Arrogant-Sectarian all of them. For me that was the end of organized religion. Lastly, I turned back to a review of the Bible itself. Keep in mind, over those 4 years of high school, studying the Bible hard 3 or so hours a day; I had come close to memorizing that book. When I started re-reading it, I WAS COMPLETELY SCANDALIZED. Not only by what it actually said & stood for; but also by the fact that I THOUGHT I KNEW the Bible; yet had had it all wrong. A 1/2 YEAR OF SELF-DOUBT & OSTRACIZING BY FRIENDS & FAMILY: The next half-year was super-difficult for me. I lost ALL my friends; and all my family. I worried about Hell constantly (What if I were wrong; and was gonna be tortured forever?) What saved me was simply that I finally realized I had been forced (as Paulogia says) to accept this new set of beliefs; & must make peace with that non-choice. SINCE 1967: A HIGHLY-MORAL ATHEIST: I've been a highly-moral atheist ever since. Between 1965 and 1975, I dedicated 20,000+ volunteer hours (40+ hours a week; 50+ weeks a year; btw, I count everything - I was born this way) to help end the U.S. Gov slaughter of 2-3 million innocent people in Vietnam. I've remained highly socially active (& studying the underlying principles) for the last 55 years and counting.

[@RetroBackslash]

But Ken Ham told me atheists can't be moral!

[@bodan1196]

@Sage of Synergism If life starts at conception, how many babies have God not aborted with every miscarriage? 1) If the bible condems rape with capitol punishment, then why has there not been public executions in the Vatican? Is rape, just as marriage, between one man and one woman? 2) No, but the protests from the flock, gives a clear reason to reject catholisism, evengelism, islam, and every other organised religion. The problem is not a non-existing god, but the group of people claiming superiority. When what makes "you superior" is not real, degradation and harassment of others are what remains as tools. 3) Again, no reason to reject God, but a good reason to reject you. I do not reject God, I reject you. EDIT. I reject your beliefs, not you. 4) Hundreds saved to a life of lies. Hundreds of THOUSHANDS, or millions?, driven to suicide. Talk about cherry picking. "Don't look at the many corpses, look at the three surviors. Sure they have a few missiing limbs, but still... it's a win!" Blah! 5) So there are moral atheists and moral christians? Then why the need for God? Why claim that God is the source of morality, when it clearly is not. We are. You are. Mother Theresa believed that the sick should suffer. SHOULD suffer! Not blaiming the vitims (of the all loving god that made them sick) at all, right? She was no saint. She did something, where something was not done. That is why she is famous. But giving a thirsty person poison to drink, is not a good deed.

[@Z3roX-56k]

It's an inspiring time discovering more people that have escaped enforced fundamentalist religious indoctrination. A *simple metric to use is how does a religion treat the other 50% of the population?

[@markhackett2302]

@@bodan1196 There is no reason to think there is a god, though. Nor is there anything to show that it MATTERS whether you believe in god or not. To god, to the universe, to yourself, to ANYTHING. Mother Theresa, by the way, decided FOR OTHERS that THEY should suffer. A psychopath thinks that OTHER PEOPLE SHOULD BE IN PAIN. Now, if the psycho thinks there is nothing wrong, BUT doesn't actually hurt anyone because they realise that THEY don't think it immoral, but that it takes two to psycho on.

[@bodan1196]

@@markhackett2302 I do not believe that there is a god. It would be satisfying to some degrre to get the chance to put forth the question "WTF dude!?". We'll eventually find out, I guess ;-) I don't think a psychopath neccesarily wants others to be in pain. I think is more a question of "at least I am not as unhappy as that person" kinda thing. That seeing someone in pain, sets a marker, a benchmark, a comparison to the psychopaths own situation and life. It makes life easier to accept and live if you know that you are not the "worst one off". Not the bottom of the barrell. But I don't know, just speculation.

[@Talenel]

They seemed to be a bit dishonest at the end there, with their talk of fundamentalism. Are they missing the part where you continued looking after you first realized that the Bible isn't 100% accurate? You didn't just throw the whole thing out because it had one mistake. That was just the starting point; From there, you continued to find more and more problems.

[@scienceexplains302]

Sage of Synergism There were 3 dusks and dawns before the sun existed. I have about 40 from Genesis 1

[@scienceexplains302]

dvdjspr I didn’t catch that they were talking about Paulogia, but my rebuttal was that finding one significant error in the Bible can shift someone’s mode of thinking from “all of this must be right, because I am compelled to believe it” to “Let me assess these writings as I would any other.” When that happens, the bubble can burst wide open.

[@scienceexplains302]

Sage of Synergism Not until you resolve this one. The light in vs 3 is light in general, not “a light source”, not to mention a specific light for our position on Earth to rotate towards or from, which is what dusks and dawns are. So your answer seems to fail to comprehend the meaning of the text. But vs 3 helps to indicate that the author thought the sun just happened to come up in the daytime. The sun was later created “to rule the day”. They clearly didn’t think the sun was what makes the day.

[@manuelpatino7863]

@Sage of Synergism lol. You're EVERYWHERE in this comment section but go silent as soon as someone debunks your book. XD.

[@crimsonblade25]

Sage of Synergism here’s an easy inaccuracy to spot, despite what the Bible claims the mustard seed does not turn into a tree. Oh and it’s not the smallest of all seeds. There’s also the inaccuracy in the death of one of the apostles. There’s also an inaccuracy on how many animals were on the ark as one set says 2 of every animals and another set says 7 pairs of clean 2 pairs of every unclean animal. Not to mention that a wood boat cannot hold the weight of 462,000 animals. I could go on but one can see that the Bible isn’t a very accurate book and it’s also not consistent

[@richunixunix3313]

Paul, The appeal of your channel has been your personal demeanor and subject presentation. I could only wish a few evangelicals would follow your lead.

[@DemonicRemption]

@Richunix Unix As a Christian, I wish his demeanor and presentation was more common among my peers. Maybe then the minority of judgemental atheists will stop judging us so harshly...

[@richunixunix3313]

@@DemonicRemption @DemonicRemption I've enjoyed Paulogia videos and comments over the past few years and as with all, we can ourself can be cynical at times, not even realizing it. But for the most part he has been spot on and is willing to admit when wrong. Followed by the ability to be honest and corrects his statement when new information is found, much like a modern researcher. He is not prefect and we as men are fallible. I'm not speaking for Pauloigia as he will speak for himself, as we all should. I'm just trying to educate those who watch these video "Supporting the statement "They're always two side to the coin". However on the opposite side of the coin is the Christian apologist. They create there hypothesis which is set in stone, as with the Bible and then try to find facts in order support these hypothesis, instead using facts to support their theories/hypothesis. Thus making changes when wither not new evidence is properly presented or event supported. Or as I call it, deception by omission (Wallace should be very familiar with this comment). Science DOES NOT prove nor does it DISAPROVE the existence of any deity, so why are the Apologist using science in a weak attempt to prove that ANY deity has ever existed. Yes there are PhD holders who are Christian and disagree with established science, that is why we have "peer review", In order gain a positive consensus of the evidence. My statement is not all encompassing and it is not intended to be-little your belief. Believe as long as it gives you positive feelings. For me, when positive evidence is shown that a deity DOES exist, I will then revaluate my stance. But sadly to date for the past 10000 years of recorded man's history has ever presented itself. As for me I'm a New Testament textual critic (non-paid) so I try to stay out of the philosophical rhetoric as this has more to do with the teleological argument. Here are two Quotes that I would like to share with you: "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere" - Voltaire 1742 "One of the greatest commandments of science "mistrust arguments from authority" Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else" - Carl Sagan Keep posting...your comments are welcomed

[@Cheepchipsable]

Probably a few, but I think the others are preaching to the converted, rather than actually having a debate or putting forward an argument they expect to be challenged on. Evangelicals tend o work on hell fire and redemption etc, so they need to sound excitable.

[@richunixunix3313]

@@Cheepchipsable you forgot the brimstone!

[@RebeccaCoatsMD]

This is one of the best of your videos I've seen. It was a civil discourse that exhibited genuine curiosity and the appearance you all actually listened to each other and responded accordingly. The questions were excellent and your story very moving. Thank you.

[@Paulogia]

Wow, thank you!

[@escuddy3244]

I really enjoyed the interview on the podcast and am excited to listen to it again and hear your thoughts on it. Edit: Listened to it again. I found it interesting that they seemed to classify you as a person who rejected the idea of God because the doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy does not hold, but didn't seem to notice that the one reason you shared for rejecting the Christian God has nothing to do with the inerrancy of the Bible.

[@MrJacobegg]

I noticed that too and was a little disappointed TBH. The hosts of that show seem nice and reasonable and seemed like they were genuinely interested in hearing Paul's story. But then he left and they immediately launched into what I feel was a bit of a straw man about him rejecting all of the Bible and all of Christianity as false because 1% of the Bible isn't true... Which makes it seem like they completely misunderstood what he was saying. And to paraphrase, what I think Paul was saying was something more along the lines of "I had always been taught and accepted that the Bible was the word of God and inerrant. When I discovered things in the Bible that are presented as fact but are in fact untrue, that opened the floodgates to me reexamining all my beliefs, everything else in the Bible, and Christianity as a whole." Which is completely different from "either all of it is right or all of it is false." I really liked the non-assholeness of these guys, but come on. PLEASE try to listen what your guest is really saying and, if you think there's genuinely a problem like this, try to get to the bottom of it while they're on the show rather than using it as an object lesson for why you think the "second path" is folley as soon as your guest leaves.

[@escuddy3244]

​@@MrJacobegg I agree with you, but I don't think that they are intentionally misrepresenting Paul or his story. The discussion at the end of the podcast was an honest analysis of his story as they understood it. Edit: Expanding a little, it is my understanding that "straw manning" is intentionally misrepresent a position so that it can be easily rebutted. It is possible to honestly misunderstand a position and discuss it without building a straw man.

[@GameLeaderR]

Agreed. They say things like "decided to leave" andake it sound like a choice when you don't choose what you believe. However, I don't think they do it on purpose, I believe that's just how they were taught to think about people who leave.

[@Uhdksurvhunter]

@@MrJacobegg Yeah. I took that statement about 1% more as a, "Ok. 1% of the bible (so far) is false. Now i can get rid of all my previous held biases and re-examine the rest." Not that literally only 1% of the bible is false. It should be especially obvious when in context with what you paraphrased.

[@MossyMozart]

​​​@@MrJacobegg - Only 1% of the _Bible_ is in error? Those are two extremely blind men!

[@colejames423]

Paul (yes, I know he won’t see likely see this), Thank you for posting this. This was a great conversation to hear from all respective parties. I recently stumbled on your videos, and overall liked and derived value from what I heard, but this one has really put your channel in perspective for me. I really appreciate your candor and vulnerability here. Parts of your story are very relatable for me, and others are hard for me to even imagine. Nevertheless, I’m glad you’ve been able to persist through those hardships. And I’m grateful that you’ve put some of your findings and feelings out into the world through your channel. I’m going to be closely following what happens here in the future. COVID has left me jobless for the present, so I won’t be able to become a patron for now, but hopefully in the near future. I think what you’re doing is legitimately valuable, which isn’t easy to find on KZbin these days. So, genuinely - thank you! (PS, if you’re looking to expand your operations, ya boy’s available 😉)

[@TazPessle]

Interesting that they mention a change of perspective/context. My change of context was from secular uni to bible college that broke my faith. Edit: I disagree with their evaluation towards the end. I dont think a more supportive environment will change where inquiry finishes up. Its the same "I can't choose what convinces me" answer.

[@karlhalvorson]

Best Atheists Testimonial videos I’ve seen in a long time! Thanks for sharing!

[@Paulogia]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@GaryFerrao]

Yeah, after watching a lot of Paulogia videos, i find his words are well thought out. I'm sad that his family left him and even kept his kids away from him. That yearning caused him to make this video series; i'm speechless.

[@christopherconkright1317]

The fear of hell is to keep you in the seats.

[@frankfleming9558]

Always love a good deconversion story. 👍

[@johnallegood4469]

Ok, I'm a little embarrassed by this, but I had no idea they were Christians until well after you left the discussion and I glanced at the title again. They just talked so respectfully, it was completely the opposite of every other Christian vs Atheist discussion I've ever heard. Thank you for having this conversation with them.

[@losttribe3001]

To any Christians who think atheists leave their “faith” because of science...I am NOT one of them. It was because I could not make reconcile God , his contradictory messages, the vast amounts of differing faiths, what those faiths say will happen to you if you do NOT believe the same as them, and the dubious beginnings of the scriptures. (And many others reasons...) I’m happy to see how the scientific method helps others; so don’t get me wrong. Nor, do I poo-poo others reasons for being atheist...it’s just I did not leave my faith because of science...which seems a counter by religious people, including these podcast hosts.

[@pwoods100]

Same here..........for years I thought that the main problem with Christianity was fundamentalist Christians. That is, until I realized that even Jesus uttered and believed many of the same things in the New Testament- belief in hell, a harsh stance on lust, and loving him more than your own children, ect. The problem with Christianity is Christianity. That's when I knew it was over for me.

[@patrickelliott2169]

@@pwoods100 Yeah. Seems to me that these two "reconstructionists" are totally missing the point. Its kind of irrelevant if you want god to be real, and specifically *your god* to be so real that they do the equivalent of throwing out the works of Shakespeare, recognizing them to be mere stories, then waste time writing new stories, based on the same themes, then claim that those are a better way to understand the original author (never mind the stories). The point is that the things "behind" the faith are all fictional. Its irrelevant how you rewrite the stories that describe them, or how much you really badly wish they where real. If it worked that way, at all, freaking Super Man would suddenly become real, Trump would suddenly go bald, and the news papers tomorrow morning would all have the headline, "Super Man ousts Lex Luthor from White House." Or some variation there of. But, yeah, shoving the Bible into a word blender, and claiming its all "inspired", so not literally just a piece of ancient fiction, with no more reality behind it than a comic book, doesn't make it suddenly not be a comic book.

[@patrickelliott2169]

@Sage of Synergism I don't need it to be reconciled. Its not the messages that are the problem, its the presumption that you "need" a god in the first place. If you start from that assumption, then.. it becomes necessary to make up some sort of absurd justification for it. Its also possible to discover, with some intellectual honestly, that it is logically no more "necessary" an assumption than that Thor is the cause of thunder.

[@losttribe3001]

Sage of Synergism 1) I reject Christ, as described in the New Testament and/or Gnostic Gospels, ever existed. There may well have been an apocryphal preacher or an amalgamation of preachers, but the miracles are unproven mythology. The time he was supposed to of existed, and the place he may have lived, was at a time of ignorance and the backwoods of any learned society. And this is when God’s perfect message was put forth. Fuck that. You keep believing in it if you like, but we need to move on from such nonsense. 2) I don’t need apologetic bullshit because this is the EXACT problem with I was describing in the first place. Your hot take will be different from other Christian’s hot take and I’m just not swayed by that. This is why God seems made up...he’d be an ineffectual communicator if he exists.

[@patrickelliott2169]

Thought about this a bit more, and.. I think the issue I have with it is that it is itself a form of intellectual dishonesty. Like most things involving religion though, the spaghetti mess made to justify something often goes way beyond any other human endeavor, imho, so trying to find an analogy.. So, lets build one instead, using a few hypothetical adjustments. Lets say, as the main one, that Stonehenge had been found to be made of some material never before seen, and not explainable using standard science. At some point lets also presume that someone had decided that "Elves", or specifically the Tuatha De Dannaan, or some such, had built it. Now, thousands of years after this idea is presented for how it came to be the camps have broken down into, a) Its really was elves, b) it was space aliens, c) the space aliens are actually elves, or d) its simply an as yet unknown material, which man carved, stood up, then gave silly arguments for the creation of. The last one may not explain "what" it is, but it does still make it man made, it fits the tool marks, maybe physics even suggests *what* it might be, its just not something found naturally on Earth, etc. This "should be" the most plausible explanation, hands down. Except... there is this group that has got it in their head that it still has to be "someone else" who made it, that its unnatural, and impossible in nature, thus needed to be created by some higher intelligence, and even if the whole "space aliens built the thing" is totally nuts, it was definitely space aliens that made the material its made out of, and therefor it has some profound significance to understanding the universe (beyond just figuring out what the F it actually is). I would argue this is the, "I found a way to faith, and a specific god, even though everything describing that god made no sense.", argument. Its even a classic creationist/evangelical argument, ironically, "Something can't randomly come from nothing, therefor the something has to be god." Only.. This assumes a whole load of things not in evidence - this "God" doesn't seem to be all benevolent, or all malevolent, more.. either indifferent, or like someone playing the Sims, where they are totally obsessed with a few of the things "living" inside the computer, for a while, until they get bored and go mess with a different set of them some place else in the game. From a purely physical reality stand point, such a thing isn't even necessary. You can have, and there kind of needs to be, a "statistically probable, stable, universe, which also includes quantum uncertainties", I would argue that the evidence seems to imply that something like entropy works on a quantum level, such that all the super, massively, radical stuff, like all molecules jumping to one corner of a room (in one classic example), actually have vastly less chance of doing so, in the universe *today*. It might have been difference .003 seconds after it came into existence, and there was near infinite complexity (i.e., complete and utter disorder). I would also argue that what we think of as "complex" is a misnomer in this case. Example: You drop 100 random chemical liquids in a pot, and stir. You get fire, smoke, strange poison gases, and one and on, for a brief time, seemingly all total chaos, then you are left with a ball of crystals, and say 8-9 new chemicals, all of them "vastly more complex" than the simple stuff you tossed in and stirred. But.. is any of this *actually* more complex than a hundred chemicals, mixing randomly together, as liquids, in a pot? Well, not really, because you started with 100 things, and in the process of undergoing entropy, they likely went through billions of changes, and mixings, and parings, etc., none of which you directly observed. But, man, those "crystals" sure look "complex". Point being, we live in such a universe, and you can have such a thing, which includes some level of chance, but, possibly with decreasing odds of something utterly off the wall happening, as time passes, and still also have one with "rules". In fact, unless there exists some rule that says that, "All this energy will mix into a single uniform substance.", the very fact that the raw stuff of the sub-atomic realm can form structures, at all, with different properties, guarantees that some sort of rules will eventually result. None of this requires someone "planning it". It could set itself in motion, it could have always been in motion, it could have been set in motion, but then just left alone, to do stuff, and by all evidence, until the whole thing literally grinds to a halt, there is nothing someone/something could even do to stop it from doing stuff, once it started. The desire for a "god" that cares, and does things, which no one can seem to show he/she/it actually does, but a lot of people claim to, "feel he/she/it does", seems to be just that - desire. There is no logical defense for it. And, with no logical defense, its meaningless to claim that only one of them is real, that all of them are, and are just misunderstood to be different, or that they are all actually a telepathic orange baby bib, which floats gracefully at the exact, true, center of the universe. No statement that can be made about the nature of something such as this is a) intellectually honest, or b) logically more consistent, beyond personal desire for your own version of it to be real, for any of them to be plausible. Not without making pleas to, "complexity", "special tuning", "everything needs a creator-ism", and other rehashed arguments, and pretending they are somehow not the same ones being made by.. whoops, evangelicals, and/or creationists.

[@TheGrassdawg]

I did enjoy your live chat with Eric. I have a long term friend (31 years this month of June) who teaches at San Diego Christian College. Occasionally discussions get heated, but we both appreciate and (yes) love each other so much we are not willing to endanger such a long lasting friendship with our opinions about theology and origins getting in the way

[@pattyclifton7905]

I was raised in a strict evangelical Christian household, went to church 2 or more times a week and a year of Bible college. I lost my faith about 3 years ago, but after seeing the evidence on the Shroud of Turin, I was convinced Christianity had to be true after all. Now once again, I am torn. After so much research on my own, I find it very hard to believe Christianity true. However, when I see the evidence on the Shroud, plus other things that seem to present evidence, such as healings done in Jesus' name, I am just torn as to what to believe. Loosing my faith is heart wrenching at 68 years old! I told God 3 years ago, I just want to know the truth! After 2 years, I found evidence on the Shroud of Turin, so I praised God that my faith had been restored. NOW, I have doubts again, and the thought of God giving up on me and sending me to hell because he had showed me the truth, and I now turned away from him once again. I'm so distraught. Do not know what to do but DO want to know the truth and not keep vacillating! Please help!

[@theovanmellaert2941]

Love the vids, greetings from Belgium.

[@qjsharing2408]

Appreciate how you played their whole conversation

[@Actuary1776]

Tons of respect for you Paul. I didn’t know much of your story at all and it’s really quite moving. I really really hope you have, or can, get back to a good spot with your kids.

[@simonw124]

Great to hear more of your story Paul. Mine was more of a reverse revelation. I was standing in an empty church talking to god, as I regularly did, and realised that no one was listening. The science and reason came later for me, which is why I enjoy your channel so much.

[@gowdsake7103]

Its quite significant in that you dont need any science to reject whats in the bible, any honest person would realise that a lot of the basis of christianity is truly horrible

[@simonw124]

@Sage of Synergism people who feel their prayers are answered are free to believe it. The prayer studies that have been carried out show prayer is no more efficacious than a placebo. I also find it difficult to accept that prayer can sway god either way. If she already has a plan and knows all that will happen, neither she nor we have free will. If god intervenes is it already part of her plan? In which case, prayer hasn't changed anything. If god is all loving, why aren't all prayers answered? If god can be swayed into acting, then how can she be omniscient? Claiming a creator god who lit the fuse is unfalsifiable. I can't disprove it, which makes it unhelpful scientifically. We understand too little about the conditions prior to the big bang to say what happened. It is being actively worked on though so maybe my grandchildren's generation will have a strong working theory on origins. Abiogenesis is another field that we just don't know the answer to. There are some hypotheses but none is established. Inserting god here gets you no further forward. Magic words and spells are not a helpful explanation. What is the origin of god? Will you use special pleading to claim she is eternal and outside of our reality? As for blood and blood vessels, a preliminary scan of the papers on Google scholar shows that this is an active area of research. Within extant species it is possible to see a gradient of complexity in the systems. Can I ask a question? How would your life change if evolution is true?

[@heteroclitus]

@Sage of Synergism Hiding yourself and then torturing people eternally if they can't find you is pretty horrible.

[@AnexoRialto]

As an atheist married to a Catholic, I watch Paul's videos to help me understand my wife's point of view with the dispassionate analysis of an atheist. Very helpful.

[@stevegeorge6880]

So basically they want the level of inspiration and fallibilty of the Bible to be completely amorphous so as to fit whatever scenario they are advocating for it in. It's like having purely holographic goal posts that can be Zapped into whatever place you need them to be.

[@tryintoreason9738]

Taking a personal stand for intellectual honesty in your own life is the only way to be fully human. Anything else is lying to yourself. We all learn things that are incorrect, and we all have the opportunity to change our minds when confronted with better information.

[@derkatzenfuerst6077]

Not related to the content of the video, just a note: The red line at the bottom of the screen makes it a bit hard to see the progress of the video in KZbin, at least on mobile devices. Content is great as always!

[@davidhyslop1895]

A good video and interesting with some questions that indeed are hard to answer. I would really miss Jesus if I went on this pathway. He has been my friend for over 50 years.

[@kenchristiansen2080]

I remember the conversation with Kent. I still think that Paul was so concerned with having a "polite" discussion, that he refused to call out the false ideas that Kent put forward forth.

[@EnglishMike]

That would be Eric, not Kent, his dad. Kent makes it impossible for any atheist to have a civil conversation with him.

[@Cheepchipsable]

I thought he explained that pretty well. Had he gone on the attack, he would have been presented as a rabid atheist. Paul is trying to get peoples brain working, so they are invested enough to search for the answers themselves, not just be dictated to by anyone.

[@mikeyhau]

Thanks for telling your story, Paul. I have watched many of your recent videos but it was great to go back and hear your deconversion account. I was really fortunate in my departure from belief. I am still friends with many people who remain believers and in Australia, belief or otherwise has no impact on your livelihood unless you are employed by certain church organisations. Of course some churches also practise shunning, which I find despicable.

[@Locust13]

what a sad show, they can dress it up with all the politeness they want, at the end of the day they're teaching people to do mental gymnastics to hold onto Faith they don't have reason to hold on to.

[@joshhoward8848]

Give them some credit for hosting a friendly dialogue. This is much better than just demonizing unbelievers and saying they're suppressing the truth.

[@davidralston41]

God is a concept that believers use to prop up their personal opinions and biases.

[@twig8523]

Wow. Paul. 😳 I did *not* know you started Paulogia Ayer you'd been diagnosed with cancer. It doesn't change how I hold your videos, which was already in respect, but so much compassion & respect for the way you continued your life, wanting to leave something for your children.

[@Fade2GrayOG]

You're divine hiddeness argument is along the same line of reasoning that began my deconversion. I had embrassed the CS Lewis idea that God gave good people who didn't receive god's word a free pass. But, I eventually realized how arbitrary the entire notion of revelation and salvation was.

[@frogstamper]

Excellent video Paul, really enjoyed your conversation with these two guys, I hope you're doing ok now and that the cancer is behind you, take care mate.

[@ardbegthequestion]

Thanks for this. Some great insight into the story around those of us who’ve found ourselves outside the camp to not really needing a reason to need to make a way to have to get back in. I found the last minutes after you dropped (Paul) to be very insightful. Too many thoughts and too late for me as I write this to say why, suffice to say, everyone has a reason as to why us (the non-believer) just doesn’t have the true gospel. It’s honestly the thing that I struggle with right now to not just completely dismiss the whole thing outright; too many “this is the way”...

[@infinitedragonbellyx.x]

Love the shoutout to you and Viced Rhino. Some of the best, and more informative youtubers out there. We are all proud of you, For whats its worth by a bunch of strangers.

[@lisahenry20]

3:29 his number is a bit outdated. It's 46.9k now :)

[@Paulogia]

How very precise of you. :)

[@dave3657]

Once again very well done presentation Paul. ... mine started in high school when the instructor asked who was there when Jesus came out of the tomb. I looked in my bible and got it wrong, then I realized there were contradictions in the bible, and the ball of lies unraveled from there.

[@polaris_draws]

Ok, the fact that you worked on the Star Wars Prequels & founded Red 5, the of publisher of Atomic Robo one of my favorite comics... wow! Thanks Paul!

[@Paulogia]

Gotta love Atomic Robo.

[@russellcohen640]

Absolutely fantastic! I love your mission. I love how you approach your mission. You are, in my mind, the premier atheist speaker. Your consistent intellectual honesty and sincere empathy and caring make you a hero to me.

[@bonnie43uk]

I agree Russell, I only came across Paulogia fairly recently, his honesty and intelligence shines through.

[@busterfixxitt]

Okay, it seems to me that they think you're rejecting the bible based on your understanding of the bible, when it seems to me that you reject it because of your understanding of what knowledge is. Like, they think you've rejected the bible because you have a flawed epistemology, but you've actually rejected the supernatural because the supernatural worldview IS a flawed epistemology. At which point, the bible becomes a human text inspired by human ideas of the divine, just like all other such texts. It's frustrating to me that anyone who studies philosophy doesn't actually understand that it needs to be tested against reality. But what do I know?

[@Cheepchipsable]

Yes, basically the all-or-nothing approach with which he was raised caused Paulogia to go to nothing when his faith wasn't 100%. They seemed to think he would somehow moderate his views and believe again, but not take the bible literally, kind of the way they believe.

[@johnsheehan5109]

Paul, I admire your choice of compassion, kindness, and generosity, they are on the path toward enlightenment.

[@valid_sound_and_furious8413]

I am interested by their "unpacking" comments about there being an equal, right-angled rigidness to rejecting the whole Bible in its literal interpretation as there is to accepting it through that lens. The thing is, though, the Bible being a trustworthy source for truth is kind of the major selling point for Christianity in my opinion. I have a hard time seeing a case for believing the book is valuable for spiritual insight if it's "inspired" but still colored by the perspectives and biases of its writers. If I have to adjudicate the Bible against something else -- my own feelings or reasoning, scientific observation, my innate sense of morality -- to determine which parts are right and which aren't, why not just listen to those things? What is the Bible but literature at that point? And why align with Christianity over any other faith, if their literature is the same? I'm curious to hear their thoughts on why they're Christians and not Universalists or Muslims or Shinto or any other faith, if the Bible isn't authoritative.

[@wbdill]

You nailed it. If it's not inerrant how can one decide which parts are right and which parts aren't? It's why we have 1000 denominations. Each group cherry picks the verses they want to believe and the verses they want to ignore. At some point you are writing your own book so why not toss it out entirely?

[@heidirabbach]

That's what I was thinking. If the bible is no more trustworthy than any other book, then why not build your faith and life on, say, Socrates' or Plato's works. These are ancient texts and food for thought? I was disappointed how they picked him apart at the end when he was no longer there to respond.

[@valid_sound_and_furious8413]

@@heidirabbach also hilarious was the way one host said, while asking Paul to his face, "Not to push you on this..." and then after he left said "that's why I wanted to push Paul on this..." Buddy....are you or aren't you?

[@Cheepchipsable]

@@valid_sound_and_furious8413 Well he wanted to push without being pushy ;)

[@Cheepchipsable]

@@heidirabbach Why? Everyone accepted they didn't believe the same things, so there was really nothing to respond to. The show was more discovery rather than point scoring. Probably better they were honest in their thought then gloss over them.

[@joeyking4910]

Such a polite man. I like your style sir

[@donnagodfrey1924]

Have seen quite a few Paulogia videos but first time I've heard the back story. Thanks, most informative and enjoyable. x

[@Dee-Eddy]

Paul, my dude. I appreciate you. I relate so much with the "having someone else pray" thing. It is what makes me sure that I followed my convictions honestly.

[@jabel5]

Paul, you and I come from very similar backgrounds. I grew up at the Prairie Bible Institute in Alberta, a few hundred miles away from you in Saskatchewan. I completed high school there and attended several courses that gave me credit toward an advanced degree in the Bible. I remember very clearly being told that the Bible was the result of copies produced by specially-trained scribes that would not make mistakes, so that we could know that the Bible comes down to us from the originals, faithfully preserved without error. The teachers had to know how much of a lie that was, since you could take courses in reading the Bible in Greek and Hebrew. Maybe the intent was to avoid confusing a high school student with the facts and thereby weakening his faith, but then the result was the opposite of what was intended. When I learned the truth about the errors and even deliberate changes introduced into the text of the Bible by those who made copies of the ancient manuscripts, I became suspicious of everything else that I had been told while growing up. I have found that those suspicions were well-founded, since the Bible is contradicted in many ways by science, history and by itself. Your story resonated with me. Best wishes on your search for the truth, wherever that might take you.

[@thesisstatement9281]

Hey Paul, just wanted to say that for me you have been like the atheist dad I never had. I'm 19 and have been watching your videos for a couple years now, and they've been a great guide on my deconstruction journey. My atheism drew a line between my dad and I since he strongly believes that I'm going to hell now, and it's nice to have a figure like you to look up to. I love what you do, keep it up

[@racebannon5523]

You should put that comment on his Facebook page

[@ajbowley2725]

@paulogia You are a moral champion. Your conversation with Covind was a masterclass in the art of communication. You valued the dialogue above pride or arrogance. I wish all of my conversations had as much integrity as you show. Thanks for the inspiration. Love your work.

[@rustlingbushes7678]

Wow, that was really cool! I see the shunning as a great weapon from family and community, as mine have fallen silent. And, then it's our fault for falling away from "God".

[@historicalbiblicalresearch8440]

Shunning is an utterly evil technique but very effective in keeping the sheep in the fold.

[@DerrickMims]

You ain’t kidding about the fear of hell being difficult to shake! It still comes up now and then, as does the rapture. These things were programmed into me 40 years ago, and that kind of fear sticks with you at a deep level. It’s damned insidious.

[@ulisesmorones5222]

Mr. Paulogia, you are such a brave man. It must have been supremely hard to put all your relationships, your happiness at risk. All so you can keep intellectual integrity. A truly brave, very intelligent man indeed. Also, glad you managed to defeat cancer!!!

[@Silentsouls]

In my mind the devil is so clever. due to his age on the planet, and the time he has practicing on deconverting people. How are you able to resist the temptation. He even could have invented a religion. There are so many religions so it has to be that the devil made a religion, a false religion. but now comes the question. wich one(s). Sinse the devil is super sneaky, i cannot tell anymore what religion was correct. and sinse god refuses to give evidense, and praying does not even work at a descent rate. i had to doubt my religion as well. From there i learned so much about a lot of religions, and non of them seem correct, they all expect faith. Non of them can provide evidence of their god's existance. From there i learned that every god is using magic, i have not seen magic ever. but i am again to trust a book. although Magic is by definition impossible, it is something that does not abide by the rules of reality and therefore impossible. I was christian so my deconversion there is much greater but serves as a bases against all religions. Moses talked to god on a mountain, so we looked on a mountain and there was no god. The tower of babael was so high, god was afraid we would get to close and destroyed it. but now we have skyscrapers that are much higher. God lived outside the firmament, well, we looked (rockets) and there is no firmament, and the earth is round. Now people tell me he lives outside space time. wich is litterally impossible. Something with no time, cannot exist, Something withouth space is non existant. So now i have 2 ways of where god(s) is impossible, Where is god, and Magic. I am definitly not the smartest person in the world. But if i can figure this out myself, Why are there so many religions left.

[@rationeextrema3776]

I am not going to dispute most of what you said, I just take issue with one thing. Something can exist without spacetime, at that point though it is just pure energy, as far as we know. Our universe was most likely like this before the Big Bang. However, the only issue with God being outside of spacetime is that it would not even be a conscious being, it would be pure energy working according to the physics that are both known and unknown to us. That and how would exactly would an immaterial being not affected by time be able to interact with the universe?

[@parkjammer]

You must be real. No self-respecting bot could spell so badly...

[@stevewebber707]

@@rationeextrema3776 Outside of space time the same issues with how matter exists would also affect energy. At least energy as we know it anyway. Space time encompasses all that we consider natural, and thus anything outside that almost has to be defined as supernatural. There is a possibility of something outside of spacetime conforming to some laws, that might be considered natural in some way. However, since that would be outside our definition of natural, that would again still be supernatural. The question of how something outside our universe could interact with our universe is only possible to answer with knowledge of the properties of what exists outside. And that's a tall order.

[@rationeextrema3776]

@@stevewebber707 I agree, which is why I find the idea of a god absurd, as it makes many assumptions. Of course, there is a possibility one could exist, however, no evidence supports that idea.

[@jonathancrowder3424]

Holy hell I liked Paul before but now he's just relatable AF. I love this channel.

[@JosephKano]

He said About! Swoon! I love the way he and Shannonq say About! I could listen to them saying about over and over again and again all day long.

[@anthrogurl4484]

I grew up Southern Baptist in rural Georgia. I would get in trouble as a child during Sunday School for asking uncomfortable questions about discrepancies in the Bible. By the time I was 12 years old, I had read the Bible cover to cover 3 times. I memorized the books of the Bible & heard countless passages throughout the first 18 years of my life. The inconsistencies were very upsetting yet compelling to me. I started reading a lot of fantasy/sci-fi & human evolution stuff in my late teens, along w/ literature about other religions, mainstream & marginal. It was very eye-opening. I quit going to church at 18 when I moved out of my parents’ home because, for once, I had the choice. Aside from weddings & funerals & my research (I’m an anthropologist who focuses on religion), I haven’t attended services since. It took a very long time before I no longer considered myself a xtian. And even longer before I decided I am an atheist. A long & convoluted road. It’s always nice to meet a fellow traveler on that road. Live long & prosper. 🖖

[@billfoster7951]

Interesting story Paulogia (if that is in fact, your real name ;) ). Quite similar to my journey out of catholicism (small c on purpose, admittedly out of spite). I think you're providing a valuable service, in a thoughtful, respectful manner. I always look forward to your videos. Peace man.

[@timothymulholland7905]

Fascinating story of and amazing guy. All the best to you, Paul.

[@raindrop5533]

Nice program. I've struggled with biblical truth for 5 decades. I must say that what worries me most about christianity today is that its turned from something to die for, to something to kill for. Not everywhere perhaps buts its too prevalent. TY for your work. I'm sorry if my comment is not appropriate to the discussion.

[@ceicli]

This was a big bite! :) This is the kind of Christians I'm ok with. They are not afraid of questions and don't have to "win"! To learn from each other is the important thing!

[@DarbDash]

Thank you for sharing! I really am enjoying listening.

[@wombat2248]

From your experience Paul now I know what ‘ benefits for the in crowd’ really meant. Loosing basically everything must have been hard . It’s that indoctrination that manifests, for you as verses popping up for others a literal hell , the fear for years . That’s what I don’t like about religion.

[@nickpurtle9040]

I watched your chat with Eric Hovind a few weeks ago. As an atheist, I'm not upset that you had that conversation. I commend you for choosing to avoid the path in which you nail him to the wall on some of the scientific errors he makes so often. I felt that, of the two of you, Eric was the one that was trying to employ "gotcha" tactics on you by asking "do you think it's possible..." questions (it was obvious he was walking through a script at that point; this makes sense though since it was for a class). I do wish you had pushed back more on those interrogative questions with something along the lines of not being able to even determine the possibility of a creator god because we would need verifiable evidence before probabilities could be calculated. I felt that he was trying to say that since you believe in the possibility of a creator god, then he is justified in his beliefs and that your position is, therefore, irrational.

[@vontosmagicmurderbag2611]

It's interesting the comments they made about how Paul's community pushed him away when he began to doubt his faith. They (and I already forgot both of the men's names, I apologize) suggest that if Paul's community had been more supportive, he might not have left Christianity. My deconversion starts very similarly to Paul's, except that I did have support. That enabled me to spend a couple years believing in theistic evolution and believing that the Bible was inspired by God, not literally written by him or literally true. And yet i still ended up with the same belief about God that Paul has. I don't think support would have altered intellectual honesty, just would have made the fall less painful.

[@nickrhodes9031]

As a British 'never having believed' type of atheist I find these discussions fascinating but no matter how many I listen to I still fail to place myself in a position of truly empathetic understanding. I acknowledge that my level of 'belief' rests on the level of 'that seems to make sense' and (though like all humans recognise that I possess a resistance to change) will move on to new 'beliefs' if they appear to make for better explanations. Is fundamentalist belief akin to my acceptance of gravity where standing on a cliff edge and stepping off would be foolish to consider. I suspect that I will simply keep on listening and try to hone my flabby empathy skills.

[@CeramicShot]

(USA atheist raised in Evangelical church here) It's pretty analogous to any sort of childhood indoctrination. The idea that you are one of the lucky few who's got access to soul-saving information and allegiance in a hostile, wicked world is really powerful to a child's undeveloped mind. I think a lot of adult believers are just in "sunk-cost" mode where it's too much trouble to really reflect deeply on why they still believe the things they were taught as a kid, combined with all the social support and positive reinforcement they get from the peers in their bubble. Conflating how pleasant people are with how much of a grasp they have on truth is another problem.

[@vCoralSandsv]

This is such a unicorn convo! Thanks for sharing. I have hope that we can have more of these in the future. I like the idea that I might not change anyone's mind, but I gladly plant seeds or water the ones already there!

[@happytofu5]

I love how respectful you are with each other!

[@jaggerjards7236]

I was raised Roman Catholic and never thought the bible was the direct word of God but rather man's interpretation of what happened - subject to error and exaggeration. It kept me a Christian for many years. It was only when I went to my sister's church and the priest said "remember, every word in the bible matters" that I thought 'huh? since when did Catholics believe that. It started me on my journey away from the church. It was actually refreshing to hear the one moderator say there was a difference between divinely inspired and divinely dictated. I'm thinking like, "thank you. That's what I thought." I would always think to myself, 'since when does inspired by mean accuracy' - it certainly doesn't when they make movies.

[@DornAndGrant]

Paul - absolutely excellent stuff and admire you hugely.

[@Ephesians-yn8ux]

THANK YOU PAUL.

[@timothymulholland7905]

Forty years on, I can still not consider a Christianity different from that of my parents, which I rejected back then.

[@twinnedpiques6569]

props to Paul for sharing this in its entirety.

[@joebarnard4708]

I really like these guys. It's refreshing to hear a conversation that doesn't have the adversarial undertones of almost all evangelical apologist and atheist response content. (not dissing such content, but a switch does feel refreshing) To call them disingenuous would be unfair but I don't think they accurately represented Paul at the end. They certainly didn't represent my journey. I too came from very fundamentalist roots, IFB then Mennonite, but my skepticism wasn't rooted in an all or nothing view of scripture. They seemed to build a straw man based on that one aspect of Paul's journey. Personally, I am very opened to a nuanced view of scripture if I saw something in that nuance that added to my developing humanist morality. I see no reason to add god as a middleman nor a benefit from the brand of Christianity that Boyd and Luke are holding on to. It isn't a fundamentalist view that has me biased, it is a lack of any evidence that faith brings even a slight benefit that keeps me unconvinced. The talk of hard vs soft edges that led to the assertion that the "Dawkins, Dennett, Harris" types were fundamentalist atheist is either word salad or something requiring mushrooms and Jeff Spicoli to actually understand. My view of the world through a focused lens is more a function of proper vision than a fundamentalist bias. Does blurring things actual benefit us? I'm open but just barely. I remain skeptical.

[@MegurokoSylveon]

Can someone give me the link to the Rhett & Link episode that they mention!! Can't find it on youtube when searching for stuff like "Recovering Evangelicals Rhett & Link" , only find "aftermath" videos.

[@psychopathsnope_9039]

What's with the period appearing next to the man in the middle (right of the left side). It's a bit distracting once I noticed it.

[@ludokerfluffle6232]

18:38 self examination and testing your own beliefs. Self destruction and rebuilding. A kind of baptism to wash away the old self to emerge new...It always trips me out how much the personal journeys I've heard of people leaving faith show so many similarities to bible themes. Even were Jesus goes of to learn and comes back like "hey you guys are like wrong and stuff. And this is how it really is."

[@Lauren_P_]

That is so hard. I lost my faith, marriage, career, world view, and sense of self - all at the same time. I thought I was going to lose my family, and I got very sick. When everything goes all at the same time and there is almost nothing left and you’re facing if you will die, it’s very life changing.

[@racebannon5523]

Don't you think that whether or not a thing is true should be the reason for believing it? And if something is not true then maybe anger would be the proper settlement for people trying to make you hang on.

[@Lauren_P_]

@@racebannon5523 I’m not sure what this has to do with what I said.

[@racebannon5523]

@@Lauren_P_ really?

[@racebannon5523]

I think I understand your problem. Just do your best I guess

[@Lauren_P_]

@@racebannon5523 if you want to have a conversation with someone, and they say they don’t understand what you are talking about, maybe the next step is explaining what you are talking about. Otherwise it looks like you aren’t trying to have a conversation.

[@marklondon9004]

I like this, but why did you speed up the audio 10%? It makes it hard to listen to.

[@alexiane250]

this convo was great

[@billkeon880]

Paul, if you can say, which part of Saskatchewan are you from? I was born in Saskatoon but my dad’s family are from east of Saskatoon and moms family are from near Esterhazy. I’ve been an atheist from my first breath

[@gornser]

Thanks for doing things this way and sharing them, too.

[@MrArdytube]

Not specifically about this video... but I encountered a new and useful word pareidolia: the perception of apparently significant patterns or recognizable images, especially faces, in random or accidental arrangements of shapes and lines.

[@xxdaemochibixx120]

Near the end where they talk about the heavens gates and hells flames show a local church to me puts on a judgment house that is a walk through play with things like suicide and drunk driving accidents and why people go to hell... Its horrible.

[@milowadlin]

I am one of those people you don't care about. LOL I agree with you on everything I know. Therefore, your channel is not directed at me. Yet I find your channel entertaining, and reassuring. My background is entirely different. My kids are adults now, and are philosophically close to me. I never believed in the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, or even Santa Claus. I suspect I never believed in God. To me, this was just another game that adults played. I was happy to pretend with them, but when I asked "Who made God?" and found my parents' response unconvincing, I started to disbelieve.

[@BrettRBooth]

Didn’t know you were also a comic creator, awesome! Love listening to your channel.

[@Paulogia]

Hey, thanks!

[@bonnie43uk]

Here in the UK, i found it quite shocking that Paulogia lost virtually his entire family and friendship circle by simply choosing to become an atheist.

[@batcowandgoat7072]

And his story is not anomalous when it comes to mennonite or fundamentalist families. I lost almost all family and friends when I was hospitalized and diagnosed with Schizoaffective disorder. It was the suicide attempt that made me a pariah in their eyes. Growing up being told that schizophrenia was demon possession didn't help my cause. When my wife had to step up in our house, that sealed the deal. 6 years later we started communicating with my parents. 10 years later, with my step brothers and sisters. Now after 13 years we are starting in, cautiously, with my mennonite extended family.

[@EnglishMike]

Yeah, I was still a Christian when I first started coming to the US from the UK, and even then it was an eye-opening experience. I used to chafe in British church services at the lack of enthusiasm for the faith from the congregation, going through the motions of a "hymn-sandwich" style service. Then I saw what enthusiasm for the faith looked like in American churches, and thought, "This is crazy!" My British Christian friends and family barely batted an eyelid when I became an atheist.

[@ludokerfluffle6232]

I wasn't raised in a religious household. My mom let me seek out my own spiritual path. God was never discussed as a definite thing. She said "some people belive..." This was the way she answered all spiritual questions. I sought out religion because I wanted god, some god, to exist. Then there would be something to not be alone with. Coming to the exhausted conclusion that there was no set of beliefs, Abrahamic, eastern, indigenous, exotic, New age or otherwise that could connect me with god sank me into a deep depression. Not because I didnt think there was a god but because I must be broken. Everyone else was able to connect but I was lacking this ability or something. If science can't define a soul it certainly couldn't identify a broken one. Like a person born without hearing or something. Maybe the "sixth sense" is what facilitates the connection with god or the universe. Maybe I dont have it. I sank futher into the swamp of dispare. I was an adult before I understood how much was "guess work" to say the least. I was more into my adulthood that my seeming inability to belive what cannot be proven became an asset to me rather than a disability.

[@jordanconnely9602]

Being cut off by all these people following a "faith of love" is so telling.

[@RangerRyke]

This my favorite video about your story.

[@billkeon880]

Interesting that they both sound pretty honest but they keep saying “I questioned things, and then in order to keep some kind of Christianity I had to do” such and such. That desire to hang on no matter what

[@slimal1]

Very enlightening! Thank you Paul!

[@lalomunoz16]

I appreciated where these guys were coming from. I'd pick these guys as friends and allies compared to any evangelist any day of the week. Which is what made it all the more disappointing when at around 51:30 one of them said that an atheist who gives up their faith due to the bible being shattered by science are also fundamentalist. Even if one chooses to not make the bible the core of their beliefs, the belief itself stems from the bible. Without those stories having been written into these various books, christianity wouldn't exist in the form it does now, maybe not at all. My only nitpick in an otherwise great conversation and breakdown at the end. Would love to see more interactions with these guys from you, Paul. And also your comics.

[@mackeymintle66]

You are my new favorite person.

[@JM-us3fr]

Wait wait wait, hold on, stop, just a second..... 41:58 When was this? I can't find the video

[@galacticbob1]

I was looking for this too, as far as I can tell they were referencing this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z6LFn5RsqZaVsNk

[@Futt.Buckerson]

I have a small collection of first run Atomic Robos! I'm glad to know that was your company.

[@creepyunicornwithlazers3594]

you worked on the star wars prequels? O.o Vid on that please!

[@jtheist32]

This was enlightening. It was very interesting learning about your past (I haven't heard that information before).

[@colinoneill9470]

The solution for dogmatic errors is the open debate of ideas.