Christmas isn't about 'Peace on Earth'

[@jeffreytan5840]

Merry Christmas Hugh! Thank you for all you do!

[@matthewsymonds7772]

Interesting notes on the passages here God bless and my the intercession of our Mother Mary be with you. Merry Christmas

[@catholicskeptic]

@matthewsymonds7772 Thanks, God Bless!Merry Christmas.

[@danvankouwenberg7234]

Merry Christmas, Hugh! I still use the peace sign. The hippies aren't using it anymore.

[@catholicskeptic]

@danvankouwenberg7234 True they aren't. I've thought about using the Vulcan 🖖 sign of live long and prosper, since Nimoy revealed it's Hebrew Rabbinical origin. Merry Christmas.

[@ralf547]

Well said. The divisions we experience are of our sinful making. Because of our corruption, we don't have peace on Earth. Without sin, we would have peace on Earth just as we will have it in eternity with the Trinity.

[@catholicskeptic]

@ralf547 Thanks! Merry Christmas.

[@ralf547]

@@_ready__ huh?

[@Harbinger290]

@@ralf547 Friends, I'm currently immersing myself in the Catholic Church's teachings on purgatory as presented in their catechism. Specifically, I've encountered ccc 1030 which states: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified (need further purification)." I would appreciate hearing your (anyone’s) insights regarding purgatory and how it aligns with the biblical concept of purification provided by Jesus through His sacrificial act on the cross. Here are a just a few verses from the Bible explaining purification through Christ for a comparison to the purgatory purification of Catholicism: Hebrews 9:14: "How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God." Here, the blood of Christ is seen as purifying our conscience, freeing us from guilt, and enabling us to serve God fully. 1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." This verse highlights the transformative power of Christ, cleansing and sanctifying believers through faith in him. Titus 2:14: "who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works." By sacrificing himself, Christ purifies believers and makes them his own people, dedicated to doing good works. Hebrews 10:10 (KJV) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. Hebrews 10:14 (KJV) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Note: any background on how this teaching (purgatory) came into existence would also be accepted. Thanks and God Bless all!!

[@Harbinger290]

Hugh I wanted to come to a new thread to ask my question: I keep seeing this discussion about dispensationalism. I have a query; are you saying the “body of Christ” doctrines were taught before Paul? While I don’t understand what parts of dispensationalism are in error. I cannot find any doctrines for the body of Christ (Jew n gentiles being in one body) before Paul. Could you help me understand what you guys disagree on!? It’s a very interesting conversation! Thanks so much for engaging with the crowd!

[@catholicskeptic]

@Harbinger290 Glad to discuss it. First , what I am saying is the very notion of Dispensationalism, and the dividing up of the New Testament into some sort of separate gospels, one for Jews, other for Gentiles is unheard of prior to John Nelson Darby. Now yes, clearly Paul wrote deeper and clearer revelation about the Church, the Body of Christ, and details regarding our redemption. And yes Paul was sent to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews. Yet they clearly preached the same Gospel. Peter makes it clear in 1 Peter 3;18 makes it clear Peter proclaimed Christ suffering for us for salvation. Granted, paul brings more details into his narrative, but the Blood of Christ and redemption is clearly present in Peter message. Further Peter is used by God to bring in the first Gentiles into the Church ( see Acts 10). when Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, it says, concerning the 3000 souls, that although rhey we're certainly Jews, they were added to "the Church". ( Acts 2:47) Further still, Paul makes it clear that there is now neither Jew nor Greek, but we are ( present tense) One in Christ . ( see Galatians 3: 26-29). Dispensationalism, according to those I have dialogued with on here, claim Peter preached a "different gospel ", that Salvation came by other means; that only Paul's revelation and writings apply to Christians today! This has no basis in history, certainly not in scripture, but only in Darby/Scofield interpretations. I know the "body of Christ " doctrines, as you call them, were not taught in the deep details that Paul clearly brought, but neither were nonexistent nor non applicable before him. God did not bring two separate gospels to two separate peoples, such teaching is unique to 19th century Darbyism.

[@Harbinger290]

@@catholicskeptic Thank you for clarifying the specific aspects of Darby's teachings that you disagree with. That helps! Leaving aside the various gospel issues for now, I would like to focus on Romans chapter 11 and get your perspective on it. As you know, understanding Paul's view of Israel past, present and future is a key issue. With that said, can I get your perspective on Rom ch. 11 and in particular how you would understand the verse below in context? Romans 11:15 (KJV) For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead? Question: who is being cast away, and who is being received back from the dead? Thanks! 🙏

[@catholicskeptic]

@@Harbinger290 Well context is key, one could not properly exegete Romans 11, or a specific verse within this chapter, without seeing it in the light of Romans chapters 9, 10, and 11. Romans 9:6-8 is a vital key: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For They are NOT all Israel. which are of Israel: Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but , In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these ARE NOT the children of God: but the children of promise are counted for the seed. " The Dispensational notion of seeing the Church as a mere parentheses in the plan of God, utterly misses the point of Israel. Ironically, though Darby emphasized "Paul's revelation", he seemed to have missed entirely the very point of Israel. Galatians 3:29 states clearly that "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. In the verses before it, he goes on at length clarifying that in the New Covenant there is neither Jew nor Greek. Ephesians 2:13 -22, scripture is clear that God has broken down the middle wall of partition between us, "for to make in Himself of twain, one new man". He reconciled BOTH unto God in one body by the cross. This Darby notion of seeing God's plan of salvation being racially divided into different gospels and plans of salvation is not a reality. We are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God. He goes on to say we grow unto a holy temple in the Lord. The Church is the fulfillment( not replacement, of Israel. ) Abraham is the "father of MANY NATIONS ". Romans 4:17. Romans 9:27 says a Remnant of natural Israel will be saved. He reiterates this in Romans 11:2-5. And notice He says "at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." In other words not a prophecy of a future time, but now. So when it says "And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved " ( Romans 11:26) it means the combination of the saved Gentiles and the saved Jews, because ( back to Romans 9:6, "For they are NOT all Israel, which are of Israel". So regarding Romans 11:15, obviously it refers to the casting away and reconciliation of Israel, but it does not mean every sole , single person of Jewish decent will acknowledge Jesus as Messiah, why that would applying a bit of Calvinistic notions of predetermined predestination to a certain generation of of one particular natural order of descent , and every Dispensationalist I have ever met, are adamant anti-Calvinism in their theology. God is not going to violate the free will of thousands of a particular race , and make them saved, or is He? Yes I believe a certain amount of people of Jewish faith will come to Christ as Messiah, and they, combined with the Gentiles ( i.e., everyone else) will, as the Israel of God, be saved. But to read into it the notion of two separate plans of God, is false. For God so lived the world, He gave .... God selected Abraham and his descendants to carry the Word and Promise down through the ages, fulfilled in Christ, Who is The Seed. Remember John the Baptist warned in his earthly message those who trusted that they were Abraham's seed, that He ( God) was able of these stones to raise up children until Abraham. ( see Matthew 3:9) Anyway, that's my perspective on Romans 9-11 and all the corresponding scriptures I shared. There are TWO Dispensations, the Old Testament and the New Testament, and yes, a THIRD, at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

[@Harbinger290]

@@catholicskeptic I know that took some effort, so first off, thanks for taking the time to answer! I read every word and I made a few notes. If your willing let’s continue on this subject a bit further. Be back with you shortly! Thx!!

[@catholicskeptic]

@@_ready__ Noah was saved by faith , he found "grace" in the eyes of God. ( Hebrews 11:7, Genesis 6:8-9) Old Testament persons were saved by Christ in what He would do, as New Testament persons are saved by what Christ has done. Oh and the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. ( Revelation 23:9) What you believe is neither Catholic nor Evangelical Christian, it is a weird anomaly, like a cult, similar to JWs and Mormons.

[@wenshan9101]

Hugh, Merry Christmas and a blessed year ahead! Your message is certainly anticlimatic to your anthology of carols. 😅 But catholics concerned with recent developments understand where that is coming from. Compared to the Our Lady's message (Akita) that the living will envy the dead, there is yet much to be joyful. "The Church, full of sinners, is herself without sin." (Card. Robert Sarah) "

[@wenshan9101]

@EPH-re2xj you are self-deluded if you think christianity is a bed of roses. And if you think pastoral documents are rules, you are more catholic than most of us! For a change, hold your peace if you have nothing constructive.

[@catholicskeptic]

@@EPH113 I refuse to discuss in house Catholic issues with a Protestant, so respectfully, no comment.

[@catholicskeptic]

@@EPH113 We probably agree on "where" it comes from, ironically. I just choose not get into the madness of strife resulting from it.