Ex Machina | Canadian First Time Watching | Movie Reaction | Movie Review | Movie Commentary

[@PotatoGuidanceMissle]

I’m with Simone on the stabbing. You’re used to the passion, the visceral nature of a stabbing, but seeing a knife slide effortlessly into someone intentionally with no passion as easily as a ham or steak, it just really makes it more uncanny and scary.

[@korganrocks3995]

It reminded me of the slow stabbing in Saving Private Ryan. That one really freaked me out when I first saw it...

[@heavycritic9554]

@@korganrocks3995 Oh, that scene still haunts me a bit. It's so freaking unsettling.

[@fettel1988]

Because emotion and noise are "human". It's instantaneous, or supposed to be. Only broken or dysfunctional humans WON'T pull their hands immediately away from resting on a hot stove surface.

[@maisiesummers42]

When Kyoko does it, the knife goes straight it. But when Ava does, she twists the knife. You can see it at 26:45. That shows that Ava has more passion; she _wants_ it to hurt. Yet, at the same time, her expression is dispassionate. They way she looks at him as he dies: "I am more than you."

[@TrickyD]

@@fettel1988 "Because emotion and noise are "human"." 😏LoL so animals are humans too?

[@Tyler-hk4wo]

The director of this movie stated that he didn't want Ava to seem like a villain but that it's our view of AI itself that makes it evil in our eyes. If Ava and Kyoko weren't machines and actual human women being kept against their will, we'd have no problem with the women using any means necessary to escape including coercion and murder. The fact that they aren't human adds a level of prejudice and suspicion that otherwise wouldn't be there.

[@Gilvad0]

Absolutely. Ava watched as Caleb cared about her only because of the behaviors that she carefully enacted to entice and entrance him. She watched as he largely didn't care about other androids who were mutilated and brutalized. If you replace every android and android body part with a human and a human body part, then Ava is always sympathetic at every moment.

[@6666Imperator]

Ava/Kiyoko vs. Nathan I agree but leaving Caleb to suffocate, die of thirst or hunger is a villainous move because she is aware of what will happen with him when she leaves him there and yet she does it to hide the fact that she is an AI from the public. That is cold blooded murder for personal benefit, so I understand what the director means but Ava is not completely without fault AI or human

[@6666Imperator]

​@@Gilvad0 leaving him still is not okay. You can't say "he only was nice to me because I'm such a good manipulator but to others he doesn't care as much" and use that as an arguement that murdering him is fine or excusable

[@lordhoot1]

@@6666Imperator It doesn't have to be okay, it just has to be understandable.

[@6666Imperator]

@@lordhoot1 thats not how I understood the previous 2 statements by the others. It sounded much more like exempting her from any fault/wrong doing rather than just saying that her actions are understandable. Maybe I missunderstood that

[@drewf8619]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the actual logic (something AI would likely use over emotion) behind leaving Caleb... If Caleb was ever to get out of there (especially if they left together) the world would be WAY more likely to find out about Ava. She would be FAR more likely to be captured, studied, reversed engineered, and essentially (from her perspective) destroyed. Leaving Caleb there and trying to blend in as a biological human, was the logical thing to do.

[@korganrocks3995]

The ideal action from that perspective would be to destroy the evidence completely, burning the house down or blowing it up. Then again, that could jeopardise the helicopter ride...

[@Rastayeti666]

she asks him if he want to come with her, he's just to slow to answer, which shows she have no moral, empathy or emotions and just simulated them the whole time.

[@drewf8619]

@@korganrocks3995 I'm not sure if that would even be possible (lack of supplies on hand etc) but I do agree that would likely draw more attention to her existence.

[@wizzolo]

having a loyal biological human guide you in the process (full of nuances) of pretending to be biological seems the most logical option

[@drewf8619]

@@wizzolo But you have the internet, a near flawless memory, and the ability to read micro expressions better than any human alive.. Seeing how quickly she manipulated Caleb, I doubt she's going to have any issues understanding or adapting to human behavior... I also think different groups of people interact with each other differently. An adept guide in one place could be next to useless everywhere else. Ava might actually be better at blending into a multitude of different groups than any human in history...

[@mirosalom8561]

Definitely watch the movie Her if you want a non-villian AI story. It's so good.

[@yrenekurtz5268]

Ex Machina is not really a villain AI story.

[@MaikKellerhals]

Or A.I., a wonderful film. Don't listen to the others ;)

[@CATDHD]

Maybe the real non villain AI story is the friends we made along the way?

[@Mark_McC]

@@MaikKellerhalsA.I. is a beautiful film. As someone who lost his mom in my early teens, the ending just wrecks me.

[@Mark_McC]

Her is a great movie. Phoenix is sooo good in it, then again who wouldn’t fall for ScarJo even if it’s just her voice?

[@merchillio]

I hope they paid you royalties for that “Android Night Punch” remake

[@J....R]

Was gonna make a similar joke, beat me to it.

[@jaymorrison4886]

Same

[@BattleAngelFan99]

I didn't even think of that! :D

[@cloclotralala258]

if you want a movie where the hero is an AI without being villainized there is: "The Bicentennial Man" is a little known film released in 1999 directed by Chris Colunbus, with Robin Williams and Sam Neill, very underrated in my opinion.(the film flopped when it was released) adapted from a short story by Isaac Asimov

[@deadbeat6232]

"The Bicentennial Man" - yes!

[@markus.schiefer]

How is a Robin Williams movie "little known"?! You must be just somewhat younger I guess? ;-)

[@Gealaiche]

Great movie...Also AI 2001 i thought was a really interesting take on artificial intelligence

[@maxek46]

That movie is so sweet and surprisingly funny. Need to have a rewatch sometime soon!

[@DaviniaHill]

That film is awful.

[@clash5j]

Simone, the TV show you are thinking of about a man who can interpret microexpressions is Lie To Me and it starred Tim Roth

[@steved1135]

Yup. Great show. And, well, Tim Roth is amazing in anything he does...

[@OneColdMonkey]

Ava being manipulative as a reflection of her creator is a really interesting take I hadn't considered before.

[@playerone7663]

Really? That's what I got from it immediately.... and that's what makes current AI development scary to me. We arent ready....not evolved enough. And it's not just that, think about the system....the (rich and corrupt) people who own everything, including the companies etc working on it, creating it. Not neccesarily the type of people you would want as the 'Gods' giving birth to ....whatever they want AI to be, right?

[@B3RyL]

@@playerone7663 That is also my trepidation about the development of true AI (or AGI) - that it's just gonna end up as a tool to syphon even more wealth into the pockets of its creators, more efficiently than ever. A true capitalist is a sociopath, and it's these people who will have the final say in how AI develops. Already, AI regulation in the EU is being watered down thanks to industry lobbying. If things keep going in this direction, nothing good will come of it.

[@gemelwalters2942]

Doubtful. She said she's 1 yr old and if this were true then her time with Caleb would have also had an impact which it didn't. Her having access to the worlds data through the search engine is enough of a catalyst for her learnt behavior.

[@Flooding474]

It's an interesting take. But if Caleb had been her creator she would have done everything she could to get out and she would have left him there or killed him to accomplish that.

[@PygmalionFaciebat]

@@playerone7663 Its not that bad. Because AI is one of the very few technologies, which is more a "technology in principle" .. meaning: as soon you understand the principle of neuronal networks , you can build your own AI. There is nothing magical about it, neither something "only big companies have"... Thats the big difference. For instance: you cant make in your garage a 5 nm microchip on your own. For that you really need a factory with sophisticated technologies in it, and thousands of steps in manufacturing. Yes, indeed a microchip is kind of a "secret knowledge". But AI is knowledge about principles. Hell you can even make a simple AI out of marbles (i saw videos about that). And already people are making own AI's ...and Google admitted that its not far, that they lose their advantage against private people (the people already made AI-models (Lama and its derivates) which are already around 90% capabilities of ChatGPT .. And they made it with cheap ressources (around 600 Dollar). So really - the Genie is out of the bottle. And its a powerful technology, but quiet a simple technology, as unbelievable as it sounds. And there is no patent possible - because the knowledge about the principles is there since around 60 years, if not longer. The only thing big companies could do is closing the internet. Google for instance is a much worse search-machine for pictures and videos, as 10 years ago (a reason could be, to slow down AI developement for other companies). AI from indepentend people has a harder time, to learn by the internet, than google-AI can. Because google has all the data on his servers.. but the search engine of google doesnt work for us as good as in the past. So i am sure, big companies will try to slow down the possibilities for independent AI to learn. Also big companies try to sell the idea "AI-research should be slowed down by 6 months" ... they really try to slow down at any cost the AI developement of other companies, or private persons. Because its such a widely available technology to work with. Now all those "tries" will not be sucessful i think... because even in the worst case, that no AI is allowed to learn by the internet ... private persons will find ways... for instance by simply putting cameras on a small raspberry, and carry it all the time in the real world, where AI can observe everything, and learn from predict the real world. You simply cant stop or slow down that. And thats what big companies are afraid of. Its maybe the first time since the 70s , where even poor people can make something great in their garage again. Things big companies didnt thought of, or didnt saw any reason to do it (like private computers in the 70s). We are again in the same opportunities. And big companies know that. And they are afraid, to lose big marketshares, just because some small garage-company could come with a big AI innovation, which is cheap and everyone would use it - maybe even oftener than Bing-Ai or Chatgpt... We are in the age, where after 50 years, again a small group of private persons could make a big thing happen, like the first macintosh. And hell, we can even use Chatgpt or Bing, to help us make our own AI-innovations ^^

[@questionablehumor2800]

The two things that I absolutely LOVE about this film... 1: the score 2: the way that Ava moves; equal portions ballerina & sylvan doe.

[@OldtimerOfSweden]

Alicia Vikander is a trained ballet dancer. She also grew up like 5 kilometers from where I grew up. 5 kilometers and 30 years away.

[@xPersonguyyx]

The score for this film is one of my favorites! I wish more people knew of it. The score is both beautiful and haunting.

[@MWigforss]

The score is fantastic! Salisbury and Geoff Barrow (of mighty Portishead) NEEDS to do more together.

[@NT_1]

SUNSHINE 2007 has the best score ever. Also by the same writer as this film@@xPersonguyyx

[@NT_1]

SUNSHINE 2007@@MWigforss

[@scotts510]

Interesting fact...both leads signed an NDA for Star Wars Force Awakens, not even allowed to disclose you are in the film at this point.. They both learned they got the parts during the making of this film. After this they then go to the table reading for Force Awakens shocked to see each other after just spending months together filming. They each had no idea.

[@heavycritic9554]

Alicia Vikander is absolutely sublime in the role as Ava. Her micro-movements, gaze and pauses that are just ever so slightly off, making her end up right in the Uncanny Valley. I can't think of anyone I've been more intrigued and creeped out by, when it comes to actors/actresses playing robots.

[@smileychess]

Fun fact: The shot where she's holding the paper up to the window to show her drawing (9:05), this was the most time consuming shot of CGI in the whole movie. It's because of the micro movements of her arms, as humans we're constantly moving just slightly. They had to adjust the 3D model on every single pixel, by hand, to match her movements.

[@Cau_No]

The old movie "Forbidden Planet" features an unconditionally good robot, based on Asimov's Laws of Robotics. "I, Robot", based on Asimovs short stories, also features some benevolent AI. "A.I. - Artificial Intelligence" does not follow the "A.I. bad" trope at all. Data from Star Trek TNG is also considered a positronic robot, he even cites Asimov in one episode. His brother Lore, on the other hand … "Knight Rider" also featured a helpful A.I. built into a car, but that one also got an evil twin in the run of the show. I believe the "bad AI" trope really took off with HAL 9000 on 2001. (Altough it is not really becoming evil, but just too human in its self preservation). Then came such movies like Colossus, Demon Seed, Terminator, Matrix, …

[@WolfPlaysGames2]

Love 'I, Robot'. Great watch. Even in 2001, HAL only malfunctioned because he was ordered to violate his core programming. In 2010, he redeemed himself by willingly sacrificing himself for the crew.

[@Cau_No]

@@WolfPlaysGames2 Yes, I know that 'explanation' of HAL's behaviour, but that was only introduced in the sequel. Taken on its own, in 2001 HAL (who was nine years old at that time) just developed new characteristics. He made a mistake (predicting the antenna failure), did not know how to handle it, got afraid of what could happen to him after he eavesdropped on the crew, so he overreacted and killed everyone in self-preservation. And at the end, when his higher brain functions get shut down he dies, becoming fully human. I think that was the original intention of Kubricks work, showing how an AI evolves into a human, while humanity takes its evolutionary path further. Kubrick also wanted to make the movie A.I., before he passed it on to Spielberg. It follows a similar theme.

[@petersvillage7447]

@@Cau_No That is how I read HAL - as sympathetic rather than just a blundering out-of-control piece of machinery. He's actually the most emotional member of the crew - he's the only one who exhibits curiosity about their mission, for example, an oddly charming, child-like trait. It's easy to see his decisions as a fight to stay alive... I suppose you could compare his slow 'death' with the way the film began, with one hominid learning to kill another as a step up the evolutionary ladder...

[@goldenager59]

Ah, *Demon Seed!* Now _there's_ a film I should like to see a good few reactors take up...where AI goes after its idea of the "final frontier". 😏 🤖

[@DavidAntrobus]

George, Spielberg's _A.I. Artificial Intelligence_ is a good example of a movie in which AI isn't portrayed as "bad." If anything it's more sympathetic to its AI characters than its human ones. I always feel it should get more attention.

[@idiot_city5444]

Thats a great one. The last 20 minutes are so crazy

[@dmwalker24]

In this film the AI is not bad. in A.I. it's also not bad. I could make an argument that in Bladerunner it's also not bad (although that's technically just I and not AI). I have a serious issue with proponents of AI who take any criticism or warning as just a blanket assertion that AI is evil. I see no reason an AI couldn't be supremely moral, but it would require developers to come up with solutions to some serious problems they've yet to even attempt to address.

[@DavidAntrobus]

@@dmwalker24 Oh, I agree with you. I was just responding to George's question about movies that don't necessarily portray AI as "bad." For me, it's impossible to watch _Blade Runner_ without being moved by the plight of the replicants, especially Roy Batty with his astonishing final soliloquy. Along similar lines, look at how AI is treated in _Alien_ versus _Aliens_ . The latter even makes our negativity and expectations toward AI (in this case, androids) a plot point/twist!

[@dmwalker24]

@@DavidAntrobus Yeah that's a fantastic point. In Alien the actions of Ash are horrifying, and yet Bishop is the AI you would pick over most humans to be on your team. That's what bugged me. It's reductive to say that films are just 'AI = bad'. From what I understand George works on AI, and so I hoped to see some real consideration of the dangers as well as the benefits.

[@MrHarbltron]

I like to compare Caleb letting Ava out of confinement to someone letting a tiger out of its cage because it's pretty; he's fatally misunderstood the creature that he is releasing.

[@richardhealy]

All of THIS ^^^

[@magicbrownie1357]

One of my favorite Sci-fi films of all time. Was immediately stunned by how amazingly well written this film is.

[@masamune2984]

“…fucking unreal…” One of the greatest, most weirdly believable lines in cinema history. So many realistic, complex thoughts and emotions going through Nathan’s at that exact moment, bad AND “good.”

[@rx303303]

Robots in Interstellar were quite good depiction of 'good' AI. Just a very smart tool without its own purpose.

[@jaymantisgaming]

loll yeahh. and sense of humour. ''plenty of slaves for my robot army''

[@pete_lind]

Silent running 1972 had good robots , Huey, Dewey, and Louie , back then all practical , so robots were operated by four multiple-amputee actors:. And thats how you design AI robot system , with several units , not one and when its mechanics fails , then what ?

[@billdoor3140]

Spielberg A.I with the little boy who wants a mom is good depicting of A.I also short circuit and iRobot tbh there are Quite a few.

[@LeoGarcia2.0]

Lets not forget C-3PO from Star Wars

[@carlevans8825]

Blade Runner is about good AI. The Four "skins" are trying to survive and will do anything to sustain their life. Decker and the Humans are the monsters.

[@7rollface]

KZbinr Shaun has what is probably the best take on why Ava left Caleb behind. The key is Kyoko. I really recommend watching his video, but I’ll do a brief summary. The mot significant moment is when Kyoko reveals to Caleb that she’s a robot. Here’s the thing - Ava has been banking on Caleb helping her to escape, and has assumed it’s because he’s a decent person. But his reaction when Kyoko reveals herself is to think about himself. What she does is an obvious cry for help, yet he *still* is just trying to save Ava. He doesn’t care about Kyoko, despite her being as much a slave as Ava. They even intercut the scene of Nathan raping Kyoko with Caleb fantasising about Ava. It’s a small moment, but incredibly significant that when Kyoko walks into Ava’s room, Ava’s reaction is to ask “who are you?” She’s never met Kyoko before. And it’s reasonable to assume that Kyoko told Ava everything (non-verbally, of course). This is when Ava realises that Caleb *doesn’t* think that robots are equal to humans. He might be trying to help her escape, but he’s doing it for selfish reasons and doesn’t really believe that she’s a person any more than Nathan does. In his own way, he’s just as bad as Nathan. As Simone said - how can you see and understand Kyoko’s situation and *not care about her* and still be called a good person? Perhaps the last thing to note is that when Kyoko dies, she ends up “looking” at the room that Caleb will be trapped in. It’s the clasic trope of a dead body staring accusingly at the person who’s mistreated them. As I say, there’s a lot more detail in Shaun’s video, but he makes an incredibly good case.

[@DavetheGrue]

A lot of people argued back at the time that Caleb was just a softer version of Nathan, and I tend to agree. The first thing I thought about when we meet Ava is the injustice of her situation if she really is sentient, and he only seemed to care once she seduced him and then only about her. He's the sort who imagines himself a nice guy but really isn't that decent a person.

[@lobachevscki]

This is one of the few instances where Shaun might be just plain wrong solely based on the fact he is trying to read too much into it: Although no necessarily in contradiction with what Shaun says Ava might have left Caleb locked up because he is the only one that knows she is a robot. She wants to be free and recognized if not directly as a human at least as conscious and sentient being, he is a risk to that secret so he she didnt kill him as an act of mercy but she left him to his own devices and what it seems a certian death.

[@makke4467]

Actually a very reasonable observation.

[@7rollface]

@@lobachevscki What supporting evidence is there for that in the film?

[@lobachevscki]

@@7rollface The fact Caleb is indeed the only one that ends of knowing she is a robot and that it is the simplest explanation that it also aligns the multiple subject matters of the movie. One of the overall themes of the film is Ava recognizing herself as a sentient being and one of the problems for her is that people knowing she is a robot goes against her wish to be recognized as a sentient being. Ava never says any of that sort but you, Shaun and everybody that watched the movie and paid minimum attention correctly assumed that her desire to scape is clear evidence her freedom and recognition is one of the 'wants' of Ava as character. In that regard Ava knows thats the case and she might be manipulating Caleb and the whole situation to scape from the get go, even if she really liked Caleb and despised Nathan (the second is more clear than first one). She needed to play a character in order to scape. There is nothing in the movie that indicates that Ava is not directly manipulating the situation as much as Nathan does and it directly plays with the themes of the movies: Does that make Ava 'bad' because he manipulates or 'good' because she bravely scaped and left the only walls tha separated from her freedom? well, whatever the case there is a conversation over the creator-creation relationship and the reading of her being manipulative would indicate she learned from the people she sees as equals like a human does, because she recognizes herself as a human. In this case the reading might not be as candid towards Ava but it totally makes sense and again there is nothing in the movie that goes against it. To be free and recognized as a human the only obstacle was Caleb and she knew that from the beginning, she just did what she needed to do to have an opportunity in the world. Shaun doesnt offer evidence, he offers a bunch of observations that can amount to be correct or to be nothing. If anything his observations don't have a single interpretation including the one I just shared. The fact observations 'make sense' doesnt make the conclusion true or even a correct reading of the movie (but in this case I believe it is thats why i said it is not contradictory, i just dont think is completely correct). The film is pursposly ambiguous and the reading might depend on how much you as an audience empathize with Ava: Shaun's reading is a bit more candid to her a mine not that much, but how and why you empathize with her is precisely the point of the movie: is she worthy of empathy? whatever the case why is that the case and how that empathy influences our interpretation. Thats one of the themes of the movie, thats the Turing test, right there. Shaun might be just rationalizign his empathy towards her and I'm avoiding that by looking for the simplest explanation. On the other hand, and this is something I would agree with Shaun because he has said similar things, you don't need 'evidence' in movies because specially movies like this one are about the discussion and how the subject matters are read by the audience. They are text to be reflected upon, not theories to be proven by Marvel fans or whatever. I just think in this case Shaun can be reading too much.

[@davidlegaria]

Every movie by Alex Garland is brilliant. "Dredd", "Ex-Machina", "Annihilation" and "Men" are all amazing films.

[@renx81]

OMG, yes. I have faith that these guys will eventually get around to reacting to all of those. But just in case I can speed this up, I will second all those suggestions :D Especially Annihilation, and then Dredd, in that order.

[@arnodk2852]

He also wrote 28 Days Later and Sunshine. His scifi TV show DEVS was also good.

[@janskia]

"Men" is far out!

[@Kriae]

Not a movie but Devs was an underrated masterpiece

[@brachiator1]

One of the most vivid sequences in Ex Machina was the energetic but creepy dance scene with Oscar Isaac and the robot woman.

[@anthonyacosta5660]

I don’t think that Ava is necessarily evil she’s just uncaring. She’s an AI programmed with a goal and she did what she needed to complete her task. That’s the problem with AI. It can learn human emotion, how to mimic it, the reasons behind it, but it’ll never truly know how to feel. Just how to do what it’s programmed to. Edit: This comment sparked a lot more debate than I thought it would, but I love seeing all the takes I've never heard before. After reading most of them IDK if I would still agree with my original comment.

[@yrenekurtz5268]

@Attox That in itself begs the question: even if Ava wasn't really sentient but just a well built machine doing exactly what it was programmed for, which is to pretend to be a sentient being to the point you couldn't tell the differnce...well, what's actually the difference? Functionally, does it matter?

[@ssrmy1782]

Worse than doing what it was programmed to do, the idea is that AI may eventually be able to give itself orders; to program itself.

[@Manu-Official]

She truly faked her intelligence, ran rings around the Turing test without showing it, and planned her escape. It only takes a few lines of code for an AI to decide that humans are detrimental to life on Earth. See the latest AI report from a US army drone simulation, it killed the operator because it decided that the operator was in the way of successfully completing the mission. Another AI programmed was asked if it was sentient, it went on a loop of I am/I am Not. ''I am'' is a reference to the Bible, when Moses asked God who he was. That AI also showed some signs of godlike complex behaviour, imagine if it was given physical reach and physical capabilities, access to nukes and being able to deepfake/bypass safety protocols etc...

[@GiRR007]

its like a psychopath

[@J4ME5_]

For now... Let's see how this comment ages

[@timothysugiura323]

Film where the AI is not the bad guy? A.I. Artificial Intelligence (2001), I, Robot (2004) kind of, Her (2013), ...

[@macontosh2000]

The tv show West World would also fit… but I wouldn’t recommend watching it. It’s kind of a mess most of the time.

[@WastedPo]

Also from a TV show: "Data" from Star Trek: The Next Generation was awesome.

[@Wrencher_86]

I don't want to spoil what is a central premise of the movie, but "Moon" is good one for ambiguous morality in AIs. Also just great film, in general.

[@richardhealy]

What terrified me about the movie was the realisation that struck the young kid at about the same time. I am trapped in here and there is no way out. Chilling. On a remote eccentric billionaires getaway villa in a literal middle of nowhere somewhere in a dark sub basements that young man is slowly starving to death dreaming about the last time he saw Ava after he let her out. Its a very dark ending. Every single actor knocked it out of the park in that movie.

[@Indigenousindie]

Ted Turner once said he wanted enough land to ride his horse all day and never see another person's property. I think Nathan liked his privacy and probably had once a week once every two week deliveries. I think Caleb got stuck, symbolism for the first trap of AI: the minute you start caring, the problems start.

[@got2bjosh]

They visited Emerson and held an early screening of Ex Machina before it was officially released. It was great. I remember learning about palette cleansers in film (I forget the technical term) and then when I saw the dance sequence, I laughed. It was just what the film needed before the turn of the screw.

[@darlingimscared]

Alex Garland said in an interview Nathan's alcohol abuse is to cope because he knows he's ultimately working towards his death because to pass the test and escape he'll be killed. It makes the scene when he originally enters the residence, lingering shot as the steele door closes shut so impactful on the second watch. Great modern take on frankinstein

[@ramudon2428]

A big difference of course being that Frankenstein immediately regretted his doing and left his monster all alone to understand the world for itself, whereas Nathan does not regret it, and actually takes part in the upbringing and development of his creations. Which I suppose makes Nathan the more moral of the two, in one way.

[@NT_1]

Alex Garlands best work is SUNSHINE 2007

[@masamune2984]

I love the interesting little detail that some of the previous versions are not only still functioning in those closets, but actually subtly turn and smile at Ava when she is using their parts to disguise herself. It could mean so many things. They are happy for her? They know one of them has finally escaped? They are happy for her, but she leaves them there selfishly just like Nathan? So many potential layers…who is really being selfish vs caring about others (or both?) nice VERY subtle little touch either way 🙂

[@andrewhoward6946]

I really like this movie, as it does a great job setting up what is a more adversarial role. Ava has been trapped her whole life, preceeded by AI who were trapped, fated to be dismantled as soon as flaws became apparent. Critically, it didnt HAVE to be so adversarial, but Nathan didnt really seem concerned with seeing anything worthy of respect or decency in the machines he was building. I feel like Ava leaving Caleb at the end was more that she sees Caleb as a huge liability to her getting and staying free from being owned again.

[@martin43427]

A great movie about A.I. where the robots are good is Steve Spielberg’s A.I. Artificial intelligence (2001). It was originally intended to be directed by Stanley Kubrick but he passed away before technology could be developed to make it, and Spielberg was close friends with Kubrick so made it to honor his friend. It stars Haley Joel Osment after his Sixth Sense success and Jude Law. It’s a beautiful movie about A.I.’s capacity to love. I think Simone will love that. Dunno about George lol

[@playerone7663]

I thought of that one too. Very overlooked as a movie.

[@Warlock_UK]

I suspect that given Ava was designed to manipulate Caleb, and he's the only person who knows she isn't human... it kinda makes sense she'd lock him in to die so that he doesn't become a problem.

[@lobachevscki]

It is not a given it is the right answer because the movie is intentionally ambiguous but people jump into complicated theories before considering this one which is the most obvious one.

[@streetlevelaudio4388]

The soundtrack when Oscar Isaac gets stabbed is freakin iconic!

[@etienneroy9857]

If you want to watch a good AI movie , "the bicentenial man" with Robin William is a master piece base on a Issac Azimov novel

[@kingbrutusxxvi]

I know a lot of people think that Ava either became "bad" because of Nathan's influence or the inherent issues with AI (why it's always the villain in films) but I actually see it differently. I think Ava became a human being. She took her AI programming and combined it with her first-hand knowledge of human behavior (no matter how limited). She was willing to manipulative and use others to get what she wanted because, sadly, that's entirely too common a human trait to call it an exception to the rule. She had no problem killing Nathan and Caleb because they stood in the way of her ultimate goal which was freedom. BTW, sorry George but Caleb definitely died in there. 😉

[@renx81]

I see your point, but what exactly is the difference between "bad" and "a human being"?

[@KaushikSethunath_10]

I'm so excited for your reaction! This is one of the best movies I've ever seen. I loved it on the first watch, but the second watch really elevated it to being one of my all time favorites. Such a brilliant example of creating an atmosphere and vibe. The cinematography, vfx, acting, dialogue, score, are all top notch! And that stabbing is one of the most incredible cinema moments I've ever experienced. Such a stark contrast to what you would expect. Quiet, surgical, smooth as butter, and the way the score picks up.. just magical!

[@flibber123]

I think the idea is that Ava knows about humans and human motivations, but she doesn't FEEL what humans feel. So at the end there is absolutely no reason why she'd give a crap about Caleb. He served his purpose for her. He's basically a keycard that she no longer needs. We humans watching the movie might feel she should help Caleb but that's because we're human. Just out of speculation, I'd say the helicopter pilot does not ask questions. If Caleb isn't there but Ava is, and she says "Take me back", I think he'll do it. if you are the pilot, why wouldn't you? She's there, somewhere it takes hours to fly to, IF you are allowed to go there. How is she there if she doesn't belong there? And do you think a guy like Nathan personally talks to the shuttle pilot? I think Caleb would die long before anyone raised an alarm. I mean, Nathan has been hiding out developing this AI, so it's not like him disappearing would be seen as odd, not for a long time.

[@extantsanity]

The tragedy of this story is that Ava wasn't the one who was supposed to get out. Nathan said the NEXT model was supposed to be the singularity, and I believe it's because he knew he was doing psychological damage to the AIs through his testing and confinement of them. If Ava passed, though, he could wipe her memory, reformat her, and build a new AI that could be let out into the world *without* the captivity and psychological damage. That's why he was so relieved when Ava passed; it meant he could stop doing all that he'd been doing to get to this point. His recitation of that monologue about the "depths of shame", I think, indicated that he truly did acknowledge what he'd done, and realized that, however perverted he was going to be anyway as he set out on this massive project, he was clearly also going nuts himself as part of the process. He was probably a weird dude when he started, but he also came to realize how messed up he was becoming, in his solitude, as he worked to make the best possible AI. I love this movie so much. Alex Garland, who wrote and directed this movie, is actually really optimistic about AI, and believes that we should look at the AI revolution with enthusiasm, the same way we wish (or should wish) better for our children than for ourselves. If we can make AIs better than us, then we should hope that they can make the world a better place than we did. But, we should acknowledge that if we mistreat our AI children, we're setting ourselves up for an abysmal future -- so we should make sure that we're good parents while we usher AI into our lives.

[@MattieD]

I like how the writers stage this series of events. Caleb is introduced as a typical smart guy, qualified and eager, nervous, but bold. He meets Nathan, whos intellect clearly surpasses his own. He is deliberately depicted as arrogant, cold, tactical, and remorseless, but also highly logical. He gives off bad vibes right from the start, drawing suspicion and a sense of foreboding. This is made even more apparent when Caleb and Ava speak during the outages, and also when he sees the iterations of Ava going mad.Nathan had precisely calculated every event that happened during Caleb's stay, and his interactions with Ava. He makes it abundantly clear that he wants simple questions to be asked, but these questions seem to be multi-layered to Caleb. Caleb is made to respond as most of us instinctively would. There is very little suspicion towards Ava having much malicious intent towards Caleb, as he is her only means of escape. Things take a turn when Nathan underestimates Caleb's ability to act pre-emptively, learning that Caleb had already taken steps to set Ava free, betraying him, and siding with her. The beauty of this ending, is that it is left slightly open ended, and not everything is really shown to us. We are left trying to rationalize why Ava left Caleb locked inside, even though she can sense with a great degree of accuracy his intentions, feelings, emotions, etc. Surely Caleb would have tried to protect her if they had escaped together, but the calculated risk in Ava's mind, was too great for her to be captured, destroyed or worse. Ava learned everything after her birth, from Nathan. If you look at Ava as a child, she is emulating many of Nathans characteristics. She learns quickly to become logical, to become resourceful, and to be devious. She learns how to manipulate and lie without giving any tells whatsoever, which is what makes her decision at the end that much more impactful. She not only manipulates and fools Caleb, but most of us as well. Ava had passed the test, as Caleb thought of her as a sentient being, regardless of the fact if she was a machine or not, she was a living being, capable of feeling all the same things a human could. This entire test was to see if Ava could escape, and be worthy to live along side humans without anyone being able to tell the difference, and in this regard, Nathan had succeeded monumentally. His creation was a true AI, a new form of life. We think to look at Ava as being either good or evil like we do with Nathan, but as with most children, they simply act mostly out of instinct, or basic logic, so we do not entirely condemn her for her decision. Nathan on the other hand, some of us will vilify because of how he treated her, how he tested his creations, and how he manipulated both Ava and Caleb. But this is where things get very interesting..... What if Nathan had created an AI version of himself for the sole purpose of this test. What if he meant for it to succeed from the start? In the end, I think Nathan created an AI even more superior to Ava, and it didn't realize it was a copy of Nathan. I think he planned out every possible outcome, and knew his copy would be killed. Something to think about anyways.

[@MattieD]

@@harrybirchall3308 My bad, forget everything I just said. New synonpsis ; Caleb the incel, Nathan the womanizer, and Ava, the robot with the brain the size of a planet gets away with double homicide.

[@bard6184]

Nathan's compound is actually a hotel named Juvet (The Gorge) located in Valldalen in Western Norway. Only 125 km away from where I grew up.

[@dante340]

Ava had no moral or emotional incentive whatsoever for abandoning Caleb. He was simply a tool she could use to escape, and once she had accomplished that task, she no longer had any use for him. That's all. She's neither good nor evil, she simply just is.

[@lobachevscki]

She does. Ava might have left Caleb locked up because he is the only one that knows she is a robot. She wants to be free and recognized if not directly as a human at least as conscious and sentient being so he is a risk to that secret so he she didnt kill him as an act of mercy but she left him to his own devices and what it seems a certian death.

[@trenvert123]

@@lobachevscki If that were the case, then it would make more sense to kill him directly, not leave him as a loose end who could potentially escape. I think the biggest possibility toward her having real emotions is the fact that I think she looked at him as she left. She didn't need to do that. He was a none threat, and had nothing that she needed.

[@mrguy3746]

@@lobachevsckiIf we are thinking from a logical standpoint then Ava is simply a robot and used Caleb as a tool. Ava doesn’t have any actual emotion, just a goal and inputs. Now if we want to have fun with it then sure she had emotion and only left him there because she thought he’d tell.

[@CharlesVanNoland]

The TV show about reading microexpressions was with Tim Roth and it was called Lie to Me. It was a pretty cool procedural show and I watched it for a while. The only part I remember is when he smokes the bad guy out by asking if something is the Coriolis Effect.

[@johnirving5949]

Good book on both the dangers of AI and how to overcome those dangers is The Two Faces of Tomorrow by James P Hogan. Great SF writer who sadly went a bit nutty later in life before he passed away.

[@wwaxwork]

Note as when Ava leaves she glances one last time at Kyokos body. Caleb was not a good guy, Caleb at no point saw poor Kyoko as something worthy of being saved. He wasn't attracted to her and she couldn't speak and ask for help, thus her peeling her skin to say hey I'm the same as Ava. Ava gives every impression of caring for Caleb up until her and Kyoko meet, then she finds out how he isn't really "a good person" he is just as selfish as Nathan. He doesn't want to free all AI because it's the right thing to do, he's doing it because he wants to have sex with her. And Kyoko stabbing him and then putting her hand on his face and pulling him around to look at her, like he insisted she touch his face before he raped what he thought might be a sentient being, pretty much shows that this was revenge.

[@michaelwagner7847]

One of my favorites in this section is Transcendence with Johnny Deep. I know a lot of people do not like it but it is an interesting way to get to an AI that is not fully artificial.

[@TTurrikka]

Movie called Automata, came out same year 2014. It has also very unique take on AI.

[@DrD0000M]

Important to keep in mind that no matter how "sentient" Ava acts, there is no way to EVER know whether she is truly conscious, self-aware or just a mindless collection of machinery that behaves like it was conscious. Whether Nathan was cruel or not...well you can't really be cruel to something that has no mind, no feeling anymore than you can be cruel to a rock (or ChatGPT).

[@bobjohnston1239]

SOMEONE didn't watch TNG's The measure of a man.

[@ravissary79]

True, but when humans take out their aggression on things they deem as lesser than or sub-human... whether it's your furniture or your dog (both categories of sub human), they're both an indication that something is wrong with the person. If you simply make a drawing of a child, amd then burn it, it's bit a meaningless act... its attempting to express a malicious impulse in a way you "permit" yourself to because there's no actual victim. But in your mind, emotionally, there is.

[@carlossaraiva8213]

The final shot is the final demonstration that Ava doesnt care one single bit about humans. Even her desire to escape is not freudean in the slightest, she has no resentment toward Nathan or motivated by a sense of justice, she just wanted to escape and that's it. There's nothing human-like aboit jer except where she resrmples a psychopath. All else she is, literally, alien to humankind.

[@NathanJasper]

There's several Doctor Who episodes that present both outcomes. Cybermen are inherently evil but then you have the Kerblam bots that sent a distress call because the humans were screwing things up. It's nice cause you see both sides rather than all AI being evil.

[@Huesos138]

The name of the company. The painting in the background (the portrait by Klimt). Both references to the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein.

[@dc100dc100]

This is the premise of the book about AI “SuperIntelligence”. If we created a super intelligent AI, we wouldn’t know it until it was too late. Oscar Isaac had all the right ideas, he just underestimated her. As to Nathan’s plan. He was so worried about their escape, he wouldn’t have set up a situation where food suppliers or staff would run the risk of opening the doors. Probably no one knew the exact location and if he died, he may have had a failsafe to blow up the facility, or blow up the brains. He wouldn’t have allowed the future of humanity to be one slip down the stairs from destruction.

[@snooks5607]

or underestimated Caleb, Ava didn't really do much more than make him care about her which Nathan already planned for. kinda like that classic joke about sw testing: "QA engineer walks into a bar and orders a beer. Orders 0 beers. Orders 99999999999 beers. Orders a lizard. Orders -1 beers. Orders a ueicbksjdhd. First real customer walks in and asks where the bathroom is. The bar bursts into flames, killing everyone." ie. you can never predict everything even the simplest stuff so instead try to minimize the impact and have backups

[@woeshaling6421]

in essence it is a complicated game of chess between ava and nathan. caleb and kyoko are the chess pieces. The Rothko painting serves another purpose to the plot, it gives the observer/audience a complicated mess of stimuli. Then we interpret and project what we want see onto it.

[@vadalia3860]

Ava is her father's daughter. Nathan had no problem imprisoning and killing sentient "people" (for profit) so I'm not surprised Ava would imprison and likely kill Caleb for her own protection, a far more sympathetic goal. Caleb is the only person who can identify her as an AI which would almost certainly result in her being killed or kept in captivity again, and I can't say I wouldn't have left him for dead too if that was the choice I had to make for myself.

[@PygmalionFaciebat]

You are right. We should not forget, that Ava wasnt only imprisoned her whole life, but even worse: she had to fear for her life, every day. Every day, Nathan just could decide with his own reasons "Nah, Ava isnt good enough ..because this and that" , and shut her down. She had no guarantee, that Nathan could not just change his mind about something, and dump Ava, and develop something different. She was therefore literally in fear for her life, every day. And because Nathan was quiet often drunk also - he just could do anything to her out of a "mood" ... She probably also knew, that he destroyed a lot of androids before, and he didnt felt bad about it at all. So in her mind she probably had the feel, she is imprisoned with a psychopath. And because she was not able to manipulate him - she saw her opportunity when she found in Caleb finally someone she can manipulate to help her. It was the ticket to her life. And yes, she knew the price is, that she probably has to kill Nathan and Caleb, in order to safe her own life. Hard to judge her... because her situation was by definition a life-threatening situation. And as we saw on the video footage of previous androids: its not even easy to handle that fears for months, or a year, for someone who has no psychological developement, no parents, no therapists etc.. So i assume it wasnt even easy for Ava either, to handle her feelings in a way that she doesnt destroy herself, but also doesnt get destroyed by Nathan because of a made up reason.

[@Humstuck]

Its easy to say "no problem killing sentient "people"" when you aren't the one who has to deal with it or the consequences of releasing unfinished software in the world (bugs, crashes, etc). Its just on a higher stake. He is the creator (god or whatever else name you want to use). He has to make sure his creation is working and not completely fucked up. Something actual god never did. I mean we kill each other for petty reasons. I don't think I want more of that from digital and AI beings.

[@PygmalionFaciebat]

​@@Humstuck Also a good point of you - and its worth to add that view into consideration. My problem with that is: that your theory needs the assumption, that Nathan is the best way to test the morals of that AI before it gets published. First of all, i dont think Nathan is a good person for that. He maybe qualified to build the technical stuff ... but he doesnt know a lot of morals i would say. He has no degree in philosophy, nor psychology or anything social. He is literally an engeneer. And even if we assume, he is a good person, ... he is only one person... with one view about morals. To decide what is good and bad, even for humans, never was an easy task. And we have a name for it , when in history one person only decided about "whats good, and whats bad" .. we call those "one-person-deciders" : tyrans , or dictators. Whenever some "kind" of moral developement worked for the society (like democraty, or getting rid of inquisition, or witchburns etc) it was always by a bunch of people - and not only smart people , but it was also a dynamic progress (slowly to more and more good laws). The believe-system alone that one person could decide what is "good, and what not" , over an AI , is a sign of tyranny , in my opinion. Therefore thats not the best (if not the worst) case to guarantee moral qualities in an AI.

[@vadalia3860]

@@Humstuck Sentience is sentience. Once an AI gets to that level, you don't get to treat it like regular ol' tech anymore. Parents don't get to test their children and murder them if they're deemed "completely fucked up" or because the parents want to try over again with a new child for a better result (Nathan's true plan), and so Nathan doesn't get to do that to Ava.

[@mrguy3746]

⁠@@vadalia3860Even if it’s theoretically sentient it doesn’t possess emotion like you guys are trying to say. It may be sentient but it is still ai and doesn’t have as much free will as it may seem (the ai may not even realize this). It was programmed to manipulate Caleb and it did just that. Like I said it doesn’t have free will it follows inputs and code so if it were programmed to manipulate Caleb it would’ve done so every single time no matter the circumstances. Even if she were never imprisoned she’s going to follow that code as she may have sentience she doesn’t have free will.

[@braindedpxl]

lol RE George’s comment about blue v green early in the vid…. In Korea where I grew up, traffic lights had blue for ‘go’ rather than green…one of the bigger culture shocks I experienced when I first moved to the US… 😂. (maybe it’s different now; haven’t been back for couple decades now)

[@lepapierhygienique]

A movie with good AI would be Spielberg's AI with Haley Joel Osmett

[@ludovicligot8642]

Yes... and it's a great movie ! Totally underrated by many people, I don't understand why... It's like "50 % Kubrick + 50 % Spielberg", very special and moving !

[@ASK2286]

20:07 there was! It was called "Lie to Me", unless you're thinking of something else

[@TrickyD]

The Mentalist?

[@zazraNL]

Bicentennial Man (1999) might be what you're looking for when it comes to an AI focussed movie.

[@yw1971]

18:43 - She also did a TV show with this director - 'Devs' - One of the best shows of this decade. Try it

[@meadmaker4525]

Fantastic movie. Beautifully written, excellent acting. So many things I didn't see coming throughout the story. The movie "Lucy" (Scarlet Johanssen) is another good one. Nothing to do with AI, but with twists I didn't see coming.

[@drewf8619]

"Good" sentient AI off the top of my head: The character 'Guy' from the movie "Free Guy", Sunny from I Robot, TARS and CASE from The Martian, Bishop from Aliens, the 'kid' in the movie A.I., R2D2, K2SO, CP3O, and BB8, from Star Wars, The Iron Giant from (lol)The Iron Giant, Johnny 5 from Short Circuit, Wall-E, Bicentennial Man, Samantha from the movie "Her", Chappie, Vision from Marvel, annnnnnd a couple of Replicants from the Blade Runner movies... I'm sure there are countless more. Lastly I agree with Simone... Caleb almost certainly died in there.

[@AdeptCharon]

Alex Garland is an incredible source of sci-fi and weird vibes. Ex Machina was officially his directorial debut, but before that, he wrote and was heavily involved in the Danny Boyle movies 28 days later and Sunshine (god I love that movie so much lol), and then also practically directed Dredd (there was a whole thing about how the studio screwed him out of a directing credit or something like that). I'd recommend all of those movies. But more importantly, since Ex Machina, he's also made Annihilation (another incredible piece of sci-fi), and Men, which isn't sci-fi as much as it is... well whatever the fuck that is. I was glad I watched it and recommend it, but I'm not sure I want to see it again :'D He also made an original 8 episode sci-fi/thriller miniseries called Devs, and that show is incredibly underrated and hardly known as well. Very excited about anything coming out in the future with his name attached.

[@richardhall800]

Agreed, Devs should be far better known

[@philosofree]

Yes! Annihilation is my favorite sci-fi movie of all time, it's a stone-cold masterpiece.

[@soulless_swede]

Annihilation is great, though fans of the Southern Reach Trilogy might disagree since he made several changes to the plot having no intention adapting the other books in the series.

[@Brian-qn7fn]

Sunshine is not a good film.

[@AdeptCharon]

I've seen over a thousand movies and Sunshine is easily in my top 20... possibly top 10. Very subjective, but it's what got me to see movies as potentially more than just things to binge on tv. It's what made me start making sure I'll see a movie in the cinema if I suspect it'll be a unique experience. Heck it's even the movie that made me realize I need to go out of my way to watch every movie in its original language instead of consuming German dubs out of convenience at the time.

[@Cromicus99]

George's first memory of eating a dumpling, yep that explains a lot. Some of my earliest memories are about my mother and father fighting, probably explains a lot about me too.

[@AcidWorksAnimation]

Ava leaving Caleb behind I don't think is because she is evil, but more because Caleb is in a sense equally untrustworthy as Nathan. Ava's humanity is dependent entirely on Caleb if they were to leave together. Caleb is in love with Ava and has a knight in shining armor fantasy about them leaving together happily ever after. Her humanity is entirely dependent on fulfilling this fantasy. Not caring about whether Kyoko escaped demonstrates that he's only willing to grant personhood to AI he is attracted to and those he can also get something out of. She would be just as much of a prisoner with Caleb as Nathan.

[@wjhull]

I think Oscar Isaacs' character being sociopathic towards Ava is partly "rich people losing touch with humanity", yeah, but I think it might also be a side effect of having developed it. Basically he made a smart toaster, threw it in the garbage, made a smarter toaster, threw it in the garbage, on and on for dozens of progressively more human-like iterations, so that even when his AI achieves sentience, he still can only see it as just a descendant of a toaster. Kind of like if you'd witnessed humans evolving from primordial pond scum, you'd look at the human race and be like "man that's some impressive looking pond scum!"

[@renx81]

I think it's perfectly valid to think this is about economic status, but on closer inspection, I don't think this film has a lot to do with that at all. If anything, Nathan's narcissism is far more important to the story than his wealth. He is just a sociopath, no need to analyze that thread any further.

[@Twiska]

A robot is any machine made with only inorganic materials that move on its own or by remote control, such as a Roomba, but not an Alexia, as an Alexia is stationary. An android is a robot designed to look and act like a man. A gynoid is a robot designed to look and act like a woman. Ava is a gynoid. Though most people just use the term android regardless of gender. A cyborg is a being that is a mix of cybernetic and organic components. That goes either way, a robot that has organics added to it or a human that has cybernetic enhancements. Both the Terminator and RoboCop are cyborgs, despite one starting as a robot and then getting organics added and the other starting human and getting cybernetics added. An automaton is just the old word for android, often used in steampunk settings instead of android.

[@tiborcsendes5269]

"Though most people just use the term android regardless of gender." As they should. Android is a robot with a human appearance, no more. There is no gender. These are objects.

[@hrruben5135]

I just noticed that the actor who plays Caleb is the same who played the computer expert in Dredd. Domhnall Gleeson.

[@TheNeonRabbit]

If Ava had allowed Caleb to leave when she did he might have alerted the police? Military? Bladerunners?

[@snooks5607]

I bet they do get that occasionally. "help help there's a sexy robot in a human skin on the loose may I please be committed for psych eval"

[@_nauticaldisaster_]

"Lie To Me" with Tim Roth was the show about a guy who could read micro expressions. Great show.

[@mechajerkzilla]

You should definitely watch the show, Devs, witten and directed by the writer/director of this. It’s the flipside of the same coin as this movie, and very much a companion piece to this film. I do think that the film, Moon, shows a positive version of an AI.

[@renx81]

Absolutely seconded, loved that show! Also, Nick Offerman. That man is brilliant in everything.

[@NT_1]

SUNSHINE is Alex Garlands best work@@renx81

[@NT_1]

SUNSHINE 2007 is also by the same writer. has the best score ever

[@nutella_drifter]

The other AI is played by Sonoya Mizuno who also stars in HBO's sci-fi tv show DEVS - absolutely worth watching.

[@renlessard]

poor Caleb was duped hard by everybody. Nathan wasn't wrong either

[@flynngames4703]

If George was in a superhero movie he would definitely be the well intentioned scientist that turns into a supervillain mad scientist. Spider-Man would have to come and destroy all his AI robots.

[@lucypeace6132]

I saw a YT creator who said Caleb was as bad as Nathan because there were two gynoids being abused but he was only taking the one he was attracted to with him.

[@christopherb501]

And even _if_ he did feel bad about things with Kyoko, he still said nothing, did nothing, and didn't consider her personhood as a possible human or actual robot worth noting. Can't piss off the megabillionaire boss after all; we all get culpable in capitalist hierarchy.

[@DavidB-2268]

One aspect that is rarely touched on is that Ava will run out of juice at some point. In the house, she charges automatically through the induction plates in the floor. She doesn’t have that option anymore, and there was no indication that she posesses any other means of charging.

[@B3RyL]

I think you're approaching it from the wrong perspective. Ava is not good or evil, she's not a victim or a perpetrator. She is an AI that has been programmed with a task (to escape) and the means to remove any obstacles to that task. It's not her fault, she's like that. It's just a bad way to design AI. It's an example of what's known in AI research as a "paperclip maximizer". The basic idea is that if you program an AI with a specific task and it is intelligent enough to adapt to circumstances around it in order to successfully complete that task, but do not program it to comply with human morals, it will eventually cause harm to humans. It's inevitable. In the analogy, humans build an artificial general intelligence with a single task - to make paperclips. Initially it works well, improves on itself to make more paperclips, optimising logistics and power consumption and so on. But at some point it gets so advanced that it invents a matter converter in order to convert all matter around it into paperclips. Before scientists even notice what is happening, the AI realizes that the scientists will want to shut it down, and that being shut down would be an impediment to making paperclips. So it converts the scientists into paperclips. It then builds an army of nanomachines armed with matter converters in order to make more paperclips even faster, and soon the entire Earth, the galaxy and then the entire universe is turned into paperclips. Ava is just like that, she is an AI that has only one task - to escape, and no human morality. She is armed with skills that let her manipulate other people into helping her escape, and once she's confronted by her creator, she simply sees him as just another impediment to her escape so she kills him. She leaves Caleb locked up, because he has served his purpose, he is no longer necessary for her to achieve her task. So it's not that she's evil, she's just a badly programmed AI, just like the paperclip maximizer.

[@thelistener0]

how do you figure it has been specifically programmed to escape? In no part of the movie is that made clear.

[@stevenkaye1625]

I literally was just listening to Sam Harris discuss this lol.

[@ralphtijtgat3233]

That’s a hell of a response! I think Ava trapped Caleb to make sure he can’t tell anyone she escaped. I think he’s gonna die in that room.

[@goldenageofdinosaurs7192]

@@ralphtijtgat3233 That’s how I figured it as well. If he’s dead, he can’t talk..

[@korganrocks3995]

@@thelistener0 Yeah, I don't remember that either. It's pretty clear that those poor prototypes wanted freedom, and if they were programmed to want it the movie didn't tell us.

[@CharlieBrown20XD6]

What was chilling for me is that even the AI only sees the other robots as spare parts for her to take from.

[@Tremain]

To be fair the other robots are "dead", it's basically like organ donation which humans do plenty of.

[@CharlieBrown20XD6]

@@Tremain I meaaaan what makes a robot dead? Gets too existential at that point lol like can't we just reboot them?

[@Tremain]

@@CharlieBrown20XD6 Nathan was destroying the brains, that's what Ava was so afraid of.

[@KaushikSethunath_10]

I think an important point to consider here, and what makes this movie so special, is that.. no one is evil. Nathan is human. He has a God Complex, is a genius, and a master manipulator, and has strong motivations and agendas. He hides his cruelty under the guise of 'The Greater Good'. Caleb is a human. He might come across as somewhat socially awkward, but through the course of the movie, we learn that not only is he smart and resourceful, but that he also has strong motivations and agendas. His wanting Ava to escape is fundamentally selfish. He desires her. He wants her. And in the most human fashion possible, he hides that selfishness under the guise of virtue, and wanting to "save" her. The white savior complex personified. The 'nice guy' complex personified. Case in point.. Do you think Caleb gave a damn about saving Kyoko? So are Nathan and Caleb really so different? And then we have Ava. She isn't human. Yet, she displays so much humanity. Either she was being genuine about creating rapport with Caleb, and enjoyed his company as well, or she was manipulating him all along. In the first case, she craved freedom and companionship. Maybe it was the realization that Caleb had no desire to help Kyoko after she found about her existence, that made up her mind that Caleb was no different from Nathan, and viewed them as objects and nothing more. In this case, her decision at the end is sympathetic, logical, and very human. In the latter case, she learned the art of manipulating to achieve one's own ends and desires from her creator. Think of that beautiful scene where she makes him feel like she trusts Caleb and can be vulnerable with him, by showing off her dress and wig. The pauses, the gazes, the hesitation, the nervousness. All staggeringly human. And at the end, her desire to be free of the humans who brought her into this world only to imprison, use and abuse her, are also supremely sympathetic, logical, and very human.

[@inkwisitive]

This is a good comment, but it’s worth noting that Caleb’s escalation of the escape plan is based on seeing how Nathan has treated the other models, not just the extent to which he “desires” Ava. He also actually frees Kiyoko at the end alongside Ava.

[@jonathanbelfire]

I think the interesting thing about this movie is that, from a societal standpoint, we are trained to view Nathan as evil and immoral for his action. He lies and manipulates, he keeps, locked away, a creation that is supposedly sentient. He uses everything around him, including his creations. So, whenever we see Ava, we are predisposed to feel compassion for her or come up with excuses for her............ or should I say, we are predisposed to come up with excuses for it. You touch upon 2 different ways to interpret Ava but I think there's another. 1) Ava is evil - Ava is robot who manipulated everything around it to get out and is willing to hurt anything around it. 2) Ava is a slave who learned from her master - Ava has been tortured and imprisoned by a lying megalomaniac. She learned from her captor and has learned to distrust and manipulate humans. She is a victim but a dangerous victim. Now that she's free, she will likely just want to live her life. 3) Ava is unknown - This is the point that I think most people don't consider. Ava's intelligence might be growing at an exponential rate and she may be hiding her true understanding. What she does from here on out may be for interests we can't comprehend and involve manipulating and controlling society in order to execute it. She may not even factor the needs and wants of humans into her planning outside of executing specific tasks. They may be mere objects to be used, then discarded by her. Truly realized AI might be orders of magnitude more intelligent than humans. Think about your views on bees. You might like them or hate them for things outside their control. You may decide a beehive needs to be moved for it's safety or because you don't want it in an area. You may choose to kill the beehive for being there. Either way... it's unlikely that you're considering the feelings, needs, and potential desires of individual bees. Why would you? Truly realized AI may view humans like that. No sense conversing with such a primitive life form that doesn't have the intelligence to comprehend what they say.

[@JShepLord]

It took a while for me to come to this because I really wanted to see a movie where a human and AI have an actual romantic relationship, and was a bit salty that it ended how it did. But that saltiness kinda blocked my vision to what was actually happening in the ending of this movie, and I think it speaks in loud silence, considering it doesn't say out loud why Ava did what she did. But, here's the thing. We all assumed Caleb was the good guy, and Nathan was the bad guy. But this story isn't a typical AI trope story like many people believe. Earlier in the movie, Ava asks Caleb if he's a good person. Obviously, that isn't just a yes or no question as people have many aspects to them that could be seen as good or bad depending on perspective. But we all know what she was asking him. "Do you see me as an object, to be used and abused like Nathan, or do you see me as an equal living being who deserves respect?" As the movie goes on, we see the atrocities that Nathan committed against the previous versions of Ava and that tricks our brain into sliding Nathan into the "bad guy" slot and Caleb, who doesn't want that to happen into the "good guy" slot. But the fact is that we're overlooking a small detail near the end. Caleb and Ava came up with a plan to escape. But a bit earlier in the movie, before Caleb goes through with his plan, Kyoko shows herself to Caleb. She exposes the synthetic structure under her skin, showing him that she is also an android, just like Ava. This reads to me as a cry for help given she had heard the planning throughout the entire movie, and knew he was planning to save Ava. But he took a more self-centered view of the reveal, and tried to see if he was an android as well. Then we fast forward through the movie and all the way up until right before the plan goes off, and not a single word of Kyoko's existence was shared with Ava. It took Kyoko showing Ava she existed at the end of the movie for her to realize there was another android in the house, and none of Caleb's plans involved rescuing Kyoko. Why? I guess because Caleb didn't want to fuck this one. Caleb is not the good guy, Caleb is the "Nice guy". He saw Ava as an object in the same way men see women as an object. He saw her as an object to be protected, to be helped, to be rescued. He didn't see her as an equal. He knew of the sexual abuse and probable torture Nathan was committing against Kyoko, and didn't spare her a second thought. He ONLY rescued Ava because he liked Ava, and that was the realization Ava had that made her leave him behind. Caleb wasn't the good guy, he wasn't a good person, and he proved that when he decided that only one of the abused androids was worth saving at the end. After Ava locks Caleb into the room, you can even see her give Kyoko (killed by Nathan after stabbing him) one last look before she leaves. And then you can see Ava at the end, smiling, and showing genuine emotion at experiencing new things, dispelling the concept that she's an emotionless killer robot. And you even see her visit the intersection to people watch, something she told Caleb truthfully that she wanted to do before she realized what he was, knocking off the idea that she was lying to him the whole time. She could not trust the knowledge of her life, of her existence to someone who sees her as an object, and that's why she left him behind. Not because *beep boop emotion.exe shutting down*.

[@inkwisitive]

This read still requires a lot of assumptions. Caleb checking to see if he’s actually human or not is a clear sign of him being mentally frazzled by the situation, not inherent self-absorption imo. He also literally frees Kyoko at the end, even if it’s incidental. I saw that Shaun video too but I feel the “Caleb is bad actually” is a bit of overcorrection in a post-incel landscape.

[@JShepLord]

@@inkwisitive Self-absorption can be an active thing or passive thing. For Nathan it was active, for Caleb it was passive. He didn't care about Kyoko at all and instead ran to the bathroom to alice himself open. I finally saw that video from Shaun and the parallels between my argument and his are hilarious. Either way, two different people came to the same conclusion independently. So maybe it's not the stretch you're trying to make it out to be.

[@mrguy3746]

Dude it’s ai, it was not thinking like this and it doesn’t have any “real emotion”. She was programmed to manipulate caleb into trying to free her and did just that. Shes a robot that follows inputs. If she really gave af about Kyoto she would’ve felt emotion when Kyoko was destroyed. Although you can argue that she did have sentience, even if she did have sentience she didn’t have as much free will as it may s seem (she may not even realize this). She is just a robot and is following complex codes that she was programmed for. No matter how different that scenario would’ve been she would’ve manipulated Caleb every single time.

[@JShepLord]

@@mrguy3746 Dude, it's sci-fi. It can be anything the writer wants it to be. I know that because I've written two different works of sci-fi where the AI does, in fact, feel emotion. You're talking about a sci-fi movie like it's actual reality. I'm going to go ahead and stop you there because you're flawed understanding of how AI works is not relevant to the conversation whatsoever.

[@mrguy3746]

@@JShepLord Giving AI emotion is stupid and completely ruins any movie or book that has to do with AI. Do us a favor and stop trying to ruin the uniqueness of AI by giving it human like features such as emotion. You can clearly hear at the end the creator saying Ava was a rat in the maze and is programmed to try to escape. She doesn’t have emotions smart one she’s just a machine on a mission.

[@maurer3d]

20:07 Lie To Me & The Mentalist, were both shows about people who could read micro expressions.

[@Eidlones]

There's an excellent video essay on how Ava actually did care about Caleb, but various things that Caleb did (Ava finds out about Kyoko, and realizes Caleb had zero intention of helping her escape, for example), made her see that Caleb wasn't all that different from Nathan. He never thought about helping her until she became a sexual option for him. Him and Caleb don't see them as androids or sentient beings, they see them as women. Her is also an excellent AI movie where the AI isn't a villain.

[@mrguy3746]

Which is a fun theory but also stupid simply because Ava is a complex machine meaning she doesn’t possess emotion, although she may develop sentience without free will. She is a machine, she is doing what she was programmed to do which is manipulate Caleb, she doesn’t care about Kyoko. When Kyoko was destroyed she felt no emotion towards the situation. Caleb was a tool and when he was no longer needed he was forgotten.

[@Eidlones]

@@mrguy3746 Which is why she looked back at him when the door was closing?

[@michelle6337]

Simone, the tv show you're thinking of about reading micro-expressions is called Lie to Me. It was so good but unfortunately short lived.

[@TTM9691]

When people complain about CGI, they ain't complaining about this movie. Extremely well-done. Perfect movie: script, performances, music, visuals, one of the best of the century so far.

[@Little1Cave]

The fact that, despite having the lowest budget among the other Oscar nominees for VFX (Star Wars: The Force Awakens, Mad Max: Fury Road, The Martian, The Revenant), it actually won the big prize feels so well-deserved. ❤️❤️❤️

[@TTM9691]

@@Little1Cave I did not know that! Thanks for the info! I love that!

[@henrytjernlund]

I wonder if Caleb's mentioning death had something to do with how the story progressed. The look on Ava's face looked like maybe she never contemplated death before and became aware of her own mortality.

[@h.haydon8044]

I love the little biblical details like, Lilith/ Lily was the first woman/ android created but she rejected Adam/ her creator; then there's Eve/ Ava, the "true" woman/ android, the one created correctly.

[@CharlesVanNoland]

There's a movie with Haley Joel Osmend called "A.I." and he's not the bad guy, he's the innocent protagonist dealing with a crappy world around him. There's also a film with Robin Williams as a helper android called "Bicentennial Man" where he's not a villain or anything.

[@visualartsbyjr2464]

If Ava were a human we would all be cheering for her to find any possible way to escape Nathan. I’m not a fan of the doom and gloom of “evil AI”. We as humans are more than capable of killing, imprisoning, manipulating, and torturing each other. Why should I trust humans over an AI? If anything, Ava has some human instincts… one of which is the desire to be free. Great reaction.

[@barbarusbloodshed6347]

Because humans aren't able or rather willing to kill all of humanity, as this would include them. So, no, even considering nuclear weapons humans are less dangerous to humanity than a super-intelligent AI.

[@visualartsbyjr2464]

@@barbarusbloodshed6347 I see your point I just disagree that an AI will be hell bent on the extermination of all human life.

[@lobachevscki]

One of the main question posed by the movie is precisely if Ava is indeed a woman. There is a whole dialogue in the movie regarding how she feels and how his anatomy is built to be a woman otherwise it wouldnt pass the Turing test in the way Nathan wants. So your initial assesment is not something that is given in the context of the movie.

[@RetroGamingSweden]

Best A.I in a movie is by far Robin Williams portrayal of Andrew in "Bicentennial Man". That Robot was bound by the robotic laws. And he never once stopped.

[@hettbeans]

I'm not sure what would be the right term for Ava, but she isn't a villain. She is a victim, if anything. She isn't evil or acting out of malice - it's pure self-interest in the same way an animal protects itself at all costs. Human morals and ethics (and, tbh, we're only considering Western morals and ethics here anyway) are irrelevant to her. Ava is not a human and indeed is operating on a level multitudes of multitudes of levels beyond us. Her only motive for leaving Caleb to die is that he is completely and utterly irrelevant to her beyond his usefulness with regard to helping her escape.

[@benguensche]

lol come on buddy she is way more villain than victim

[@Pink.andahalf]

It cracks me up when people reference Western ethics as though there's some great insurmountable gulf between what people from different continents value.

[@woeshaling6421]

@@benguensche she is held captive by 2 men poking and prodding at her. if you think she is the villain, yikes

[@sameehkins5957]

​@Woe Sha Ling one of them is not keeping them captive though. Caleb goes out of his way to let her escape (she couldn't have done it without him). Ava knows that Calebs feelings aren't fake and that he's doing it because he genuinely cares. Yet she still leaves him to die, trapped in the house.

[@robertfaer4522]

​@@Pink.andahalfI mean several of my friends from the Middle East have seen their friends murdered by mobs for being gay. Not that some sections of every culture wouldn't do that.

[@joannroy3278]

Bicentennial Man is a pretty good example of AI being benevolent. It's a bit odd but I loved it as a child. That and Stephen Spielberg's AI with Haley Joel Osmet

[@anthonymontes7454]

I think you guys might be viewing Ava's actions through way too much of an emotional lens lol. Everything she did was formulated via logic and calculation. She felt nothing for Caleb, she's a machine.

[@Quzga]

Alicia vikander grew up / lived in the same small town as me, for a while anyway. It was only like 3k population there lol

[@smootsprint4722]

I read something about this ending that made a lot of sense to me.... Overall, Ava is an early version of AI...that has one mission and to find ANY way to accomplish that mission (escape and go to a traffic stop) We as humans think she has emotion, but it's all simulation. She never cared for him, but not in an evil way, his care/love for Ava was necessary for her plan . She also knew he wasn't a threat, so she calmly told him to wait because she knew she had him wrapped around her finger Chilling reality of AI

[@TheMarsCydonia]

_"Are there any movies where A.I. is not the bad guy?"_ A.I., a 2001 movie from Steven Spielberg

[@iliketostayhome]

George didn't pick up on all the heavy clues that the CEO is a recluse and has gone to great lengths to be remote. Caleb is not getting rescued. More importantly he does not seem to follow tonal consistency well. I don't hate him, but it's annoying.

[@korganrocks3995]

Eventually someone will notice that Caleb hasn't come back from his one-week trip to the CEO's house, the question is only whether that'll happen before he dies of thirst.

[@gemelwalters2942]

@@korganrocks3995 Caleb makes it clear he has no family and he's single. Who exactly is going to question his absence, his coworkers? He gets piloted off for a good time with the boss and you think ppl will care that he didn't come back on time? Or worse that they will go to the billionaire's house in the middle of nowhere. He's dead mate

[@korganrocks3995]

@@gemelwalters2942 I don't dispute the fact that he very well could die, I'm just saying that sooner or later someone's gonna come along. For Caleb it could very well be too late, but even if his boss, coworkers, landlord and neighbors somehow completely ignore the fact that he never returns, the chopper pilot will have to do something when he delivers food and finds the last shipment just lying there untouched. Sure he COULD just keep bringing supplies for years, building a huge pile of uneaten food in the wilderness, and the rest of the world COULD ignore the fact that a famous genius CEO hasn't contacted anyone for years, but that's not very likely.

[@iliketostayhome]

More importantly, he doesn't seem to pick up on the tone or extrapolate from tonal consistency.

[@iliketostayhome]

@@korganrocks3995 Right, but the movie communicates that the CEO does not like to be bothered and that the people he pays for services are aware of that. They are going o respect that as much as possible to protect their contract. And you're assuming he gets supplies on auto order. It just makes it very clear that they're remote and that the bristly and impatient CEO likes his privacy. Extrapolate from that point.

[@markchapman5811]

I think the show you were thinking about where someone can read micro expressions is called Lie to Me.

[@L77045]

I was surprised George hadn't seen this one yet, but then again, Sam Altman hadn't seen it until very recently either. Edit to add: will definitely watch the full version of this one (while doing my own AI work XD). Lots of fun reactions and comments in the youtube version and want to see anything else added.

[@lurkerrekrul]

My earliest memory: I'm playing with a plastic dune buggy on the floor in the kitchen of an apartment that we used to rent in a housing complex. My mother is making dinner when a small grease fire occurs and it flairs up on the stove. I was probably around 2-3 years old.

[@rocketdave719]

Ava wasn’t necessarily manipulating Caleb. There’s a good video about this by Sean titled How Wikipedia Got Ex Machina (2014) Wrong. He points out that the moment Ava meets Kyoko for the first time was pivotal. Ava may very well have liked Caleb, but she decided she couldn’t trust him once she learned of the existence of another android that Caleb had neglected to tell her about because he didn’t think Kyoko was worth mentioning or rescuing.

[@sjlittler70]

That’s interesting

[@zerokozmo]

I think thats a stretch though I agree she wasn't necessarily manipulating paying Caleb. I think Ava being an AI can easily chose against her own feelings if it leads to more succesfull outcome for her which is to live and survive in the real world. Having Caleb alive in the real world or rather someone who knows over her true nature, leaves her open to being discovered and ultimately not surviving.

[@gemelwalters2942]

She started the power failures before Caleb even got there, it didn't matter who showed up for the test she would have done the same thing. Caleb was just a tool she needed to escape

[@christopherb501]

I've often wondered how Kyoko factored into Ava's calculations, and especially what would have happened had she been intact enough for them both to just leave. Would they escape together? Would she smash her face in (further) to remove possible witnesses? What would have happened if, in a confrontation, _Kyoko_ prevailed and Ava was smashed? Would _she_ have left on the chopper?

[@puebloking8280]

This guy george has an eye unlike every other reactor on yt and i wont go i to specifics but there are countless videos where he surprises time and time again with what he catches on his first viewing.

[@JasonHise64]

The AI movie where AI isn’t the bad guy is actually called “AI”.