A Deep Dive Into the Plot Hole Rabbit Hole

How do I convince people that I'm not insane for making an hour long response to a 12 minute video from four years ago? Do I even try? In this video I take a long look at Patrick Willems' classic video essay and discourse topic "Shut Up About Plot Holes". The resultant epic journey takes you through The Incredibles, Star Trek, Die Hard, Harry Potter, and much much more!
Find Patrick's original video here: • SHUT UP ABOUT PLOT HOLES
Check out my Star Trek TNG discussion podcast: • Video
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[@JayExci]

Never expected this Incredibles example to be so controversial. The arguments I'm seeing in the comments are really interesting and I wish I'd been able to make this video with the benefit of knowing those perspectives. If I'd known this would separate audiences so much though I'd probably have chosen a different example to ease people into the topic. I feel I really misjudged a part of my video here, and I hope this opening doesn't taint too many people's perception of the full thing. I know I've not committed some horrific crime or anything here, I'm just annoyed with myself for needlessly turning so many people off like that.

[@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter]

That's fair

[@kittysplode]

well, especially since the only definition of plot hole you provide is that dude's, it isn't. batman example isn't a plot hole either, it's just something that happened offscreen that makes sense in the context of "he's batman" but wasn't explained. it turns out that even through all of this, you don't know what a plot hole is.

[@kittysplode]

anyway, drink your bean milky

[@Pistonrager]

Never bothered me. She's a skilled tailor working with stretchable materials. She really just needs to know the kids heights and a semi recent image.

[@lumeronswift]

I never thought of it as a family connection (which a lot of people have said in the comments) or a plot hole as much as a world detail about how much surveilance the government keeps on their family... and Edna is strongly highlighted as being both still part of the system and an overactive busybody.

[@plaguedoctorjamespainshe6009]

One of the biggest plot holes in the prequel trilogy of Star wars is how after getting with Anakin, Padme gets pregnant and how that happened is never explained in the movie, and my parents won't tell me how that happened

[@VelvetIcematoro]

Padme is royalty, and royalty is known to eat some weird stuff, so clearly, she ate not 1, but 2 space storks. It's the only logical solution

[@gracekim25]

XD no that doesn't need to be explain. EVERY ADULT AND TEEN KNOWS

[@gracekim25]

@@VelvetIcematoro thank you for that :)

[@samwallaceart288]

The storks will be with you. Always.

[@monkeymode13]

@@gracekim25 bruh

[@andijacobsen9148]

At 00:24 Jay Exci says "you volantarily clicked on this video so at least you care a little bit" but in fact this video played automatically for me. That's a plot hole.

[@meggubravo8373]

🤓💥🤛

[@AlinaAniretake]

same, but it was worth automatic)

[@TonytheCapeGuy]

Edna seems like the kind of person who would know a lot of things she's not supposed to know about.

[@SugarRayD]

Edna wouldn't like you very much Mr. TonytheCapeGuy

[@TonytheCapeGuy]

@@SugarRayD Don't narc on meeeee! Dx

[@PaintSplashProductions]

She totally stalked the Parr family

[@asailijhijr]

She's a god.

[@rigelbound6749]

Exactly, she's got people

[@legendcat8913]

I always thought in the Incredibles it was subtly implied that Edna, being incredibly rich and rather insane, is sort of a Batman figure, but for fashion, and likely has a comprehensive list of all known (and most unknown) super-powered individuals, specific details on their powers, and a comprehensive plan on how to create a super suite for them. At least that’s what I took away from it as a kid, and I absolutely loved the implications

[@wastelanderone]

I never thought about this before but you're right ofc

[@coriander_sun]

Which is extra interesting when it comes to Jack Jack's suit - If I recall correctly, at that point, he hadn't exhibited any powers. So either Edna went way overboard and crammed that suit with all sorts of features just in case and they turned out to be useful, or somehow she knew before anyone else (including his parents) what his powers would be like. Which would raise further questions - Is she spying on everyone and, like, obtained some of Jack Jack's DNA and was able to determine from that what his powers would be? Or does she have a latent superpower of knowing what people need in a super suit?

[@athenabrown3117]

@@coriander_sun I always got the vibe that it was the former with Jack-Jack, going with everything that could possibly protect/be useful to a Super Baby of any kind.

[@antiope-d9780]

I had kind of just assumed either Mr Incredible or Elastagirl had talked to her over the phone once or twice in the last decade

[@squaredink6263]

@@coriander_sun I think she did say that she didn't know what the baby's powers were so she was covering various possibilities.

[@seanfinley2069]

I appreciate the line "an alien impostor has taken over the supposed brain of one of the crew members" which subtly establishes that the implausible thing isn't the alien impostor but the idea that one of the crew members has a brain

[@Val-ud9fn]

Amogus

[@reptiliannoizezz.413]

ඞ

[@ninjawiz7932]

Honestly that line is pure genius.

[@nodrance]

I came here to comment this, it absolutely killed me and i only barely noticed it.

[@Red_Mag3]

Do your tasks, there's an impooster amoogus

[@thegiantegg9672]

This is the first time in a while I've heard "alien" "imposter" and "crew" in the same sentence without the imposter sting. This video is clean.

[@GentlyUsedFrog]

ඞ

[@28br]

quiet weeb

[@StardustCorvid]

​@@28br Get a personality, man

[@funnyvideoguy3216]

Why did I only just realize that now

[@MajorOctofuss]

​@@StardustCorvidi started laughing so hard my dad stopped beating my mom

[@vidmastereon]

As a famous critic of nostalgia once said: "if you are starting to see the strings, it means the puppets aren't distracting you well enough" Ive seen the incredibles 10+ times and I never caught that plot hole because it is such a tightly written story (said issue could also be fixed with a couple throwaway lines too)

[@Sugarman96]

That's a surprisingly good quote, and it really drives home the problem with equating all plot holes.

[@zanzaklaus2496]

Not saying you're wrong, but do not quote the nostalgia critic. It does not look good. Alfred Hitchcock has a similar quote, use him instead.

[@Zutia]

@@zanzaklaus2496 Elaborate on this? I recall him being over the top in his skits but having generally decent discussions and points made about the movies he covered.

[@yuu34567]

​@@ZutiaChannel Awesome went through a lot of (justified) controversy a while ago

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

Quoting Doug Walker without mentioning that he's dumb as fuck is going to make people raise their eyebrows and not take what you say as seriously.

[@zack1stplayer]

I never thought of Edna making the costumes as a plot hole, I always thought the implication was that Edna semi-stalked the family. On top of that I never thought her stalking was ever like creepy/malicious, just this weirdly excentric but loving Aunt who still cared about her two biggest clients.

[@simonmacomber7466]

I always thought that Edna was provided dossiers on _all_ of the retired super heroes by the very agency that put them into the government program to hide them. She wasn't stocking them. She was part of the group keeping tabs on them, and likely had made the supersuits for _all_ of those who came out of hiding to face off against Syndrome on his island.

[@chaoticgoodcreations947]

It is also a pretty reasonable explanation that Edna just, ya know, was told about the kids and their powers by either their mom or dad. She came to their wedding and was a close friend to most heroes she designed for. She wouldn't have to literally see the children because word would have just gotten around to her eventually.

[@bunnylovingbastard]

​@@chaoticgoodcreations947I probably most agree with this take, simply based that when she's talking to Mrs Incredible it definitely seems like two friends discussing ones kids over tea and the only child costume that surprises Mrs Incredible is Jak-Jak's - most likely cause Jak-Jak looks to be about 6 to 8 months old and Edna and her obviously haven't hung out in years.

[@xenn4985]

​@@bunnylovingbastardheres my question, didnt bob go to her to get his new suit? And wasnt it an entire element of the scene when helen went, that edna assumed she knew about bobs activities and was there to ask for suits? So wouldnt the logical assumption be that bob told edna about the kids?

[@andyghkfilm2287]

Not to mention: “And you’ve torn right through it! What have you been _doing_ Robert…? Moonlighting hero work?” She knows Bob is lying and deceiving his family, and Edna LOVES Elastigirl. She’s looking out for her homies AND reliving her glory days at the same time.

[@trax72]

"A plot hole can be subtle or conspicuous, tiny or ridiculous, one can be forgotten within seconds or can stick with us." Pure poetry.

[@SharewareWizard]

got fuckin baaars.

[@hychro]

It’s like poetry, it rhymes

[@Propanus]

He's a poet and he didn't realise

[@valeriegrindinger6294]

@@Propanus im fairly certain it was on purpose

[@nenmaster5218]

Plot Hole Rabbit Hole kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWq7mWqVjduhfKs kzbin.info?search_query=Multiverse+of+Madness%3A+An+Unbridled+Cataclysm+ kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnOslHSQrauZqMU

[@mushymcmushington7176]

I always assumed it was part of the joke that Edna Mode knew a bunch of stuff she wasn't supposed to, she seems like the type to have sketchy connections that keep her in-the-know on Supers, especially Bob, who she's clearly fond of. Though I suppose it could have been more elaborated on in that scene.

[@syntheticteapot]

You get it. This right here.

[@professorhaystacks6606]

I just figured she was spying on everyone. In the universe.

[@merchantarthurn]

YEA, with all her tech and paranoia you'd think she'd keep tabs! I would have loved to have that come into play with her hinting even more that all the super disappearances were suspicious, especially if someone of them had come to her like bob had

[@Darvoth]

It’s also possible albeit less likely that Mr Incredible just talked about his family with Edna Mode off screen.

[@kaylaisnothere4397]

Right? In that same scene Edna was airing her grievances of only designing for models, she felt the same passion to return to hero work Bob did. Given her bold personality and personal interest in heroes, I think it was a better choice to not have her explain how she knew but rather leave it up to the audience on how she found out that information. Not every detail in a story needs to be expounded upon, and sometimes omission of information can add character depth.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Plotholes are a problem, because the story lies to the audience. The Incredibles never establishes how Edna knows about Bob's children, but it also never establishes it would be hard for her to find out. It actually establishes several reasons why it would be easy, which others have stated in the comments. The Dark Knight Rises on the other hand states several reasons why it would be very hard for Batman to get back into Gotham and then it isn't.

[@basedeltazero714]

Honestly, while I *can* entirely believe Batman got back to Gotham - he's the Goddamn Batman - it's also established to be challenging enough it'd be more interesting if we got to see some of it, in the same way a story is more interesting than a dry summary of it's premise and conclusion.0

[@TheNoonish]

@@basedeltazero714 Also, the story could have just ended after Bane showed up by cutting to him being in jail later, and the audience assuming that Batman saved the day in between cuts. But it’s really unsatisfying for Batman to deal with problems offscreen, which is why this film shouldn’t have set up problems for Batman to solve offscreen.

[@biggestastiest]

doesn't edna say out loud that she knows everything, or am i misremembering

[@paradox4576]

@@biggestastiest im not sure but like, its edna, if anyone would know everything about peoples superpowers it would be her

[@creed8712]

There is an unspecified amount of time that’s passed since his escape to returning to Gotham.

[@azlanadil3646]

The thing about the goblet of fire is it’s suck an easy fix. For example, when they board the Hogwarts express have Harry ask off handedly “hey, why don’t we just use a port key to get to Hogwarts” and have Hermione explain “Hogwarts has a charm around it that prevents port keys from landing anywhere on the grounds, and any port keys brought into Hogwarts are automatically disabled” Then later in the movie while they’re discussing how Harry’s name got on the goblet have Mad Eye says one thing along the lines of “The goblet is resistant to almost all charms placed on it. It would take very strong dark magic to override it” Then in the final scene we can get the “Ah ha” moment when it’s revealed that the reason it had to be the Triwizard cup is because it’s one of the few magic items that can resist the protection charm around Hogwarts. It’s literally 3 lines of dialogue, and it makes the ending much more satisfying.

[@rooty]

It's a common head canon that dumbledore magically exempted the cup from the no-portkeys-at-hogwarts rule so that it could transport the winner from the centre of the maze back to the start (as well as being proof of who touched it first). This also works as an explanation for another plot hole, which is why did the cup transport Harry away from the graveyard. Barry crouch only added a new portkey charm to the cup that transports the user to the graveyard but never removed the original portkey charm that transports the user to the start of the maze, either because he overlooked it or because he expected Harry to be dead. I don't know why jay said the plot hole isn't in the book though because it definitely is.

[@TheGreatGooglyMoogly1958]

I think the move placed too much faith that all the people watching it remember all the books as well. In the book they explained that they wanted harry to disappear during the tournament so that people will think it was because of the tournament. They state wizards have died in the past competing and were hoping they would assume the same with harry.

[@hosvet_animation]

@@TheGreatGooglyMoogly1958 Give him a cigar folks. He remembered it for us.

[@He-Man00]

​@@TheGreatGooglyMoogly1958yeah Voldemort knew he would return eventually and just needed enough time and doubt to gather strength. Nobody (except Dumbledore and the order) would reasonably think 'AHA it's Voldemort' and even if they did, what would they do about it

[@handsomehal142]

Suck an easy fix

[@Conflict-ff5pi]

"I'm indoors in one shot and outdoors in another shot" For it to be comparable to what happens in Dark Knight Rises, you'd have had to be bidridden and injured, trapped inside of the building with armed guards covering every entrance and exit with orders to kill you on sight. And then in the next shot you're just outside, wandering around, never mentioning the guards or your injury ever again. The audience understands that you did it, somehow, otherwise you wouldn't be in the 2nd location. They want to know how on earth you even could, given the information already set up.

[@Shenaldrac]

Exactly. It's not that it's impossible, it's that it's not plausible and deserves and explanation. could Mr. Bateman return to Gotham from Pit City? Sure! But how?

[@MamadNobari]

Clearly your IQ is too low for you to grasp the complexity and the genius of Nolan scripts.

[@bigbadgammagnome]

​@@Shenaldracyeah it's the screenwriting equivalent of giving up. You want high stakes for your character but aren't smart enough to figure out how they could overcome those odds? Simple! Just cut to them having already done it! Like I'm amazed people defend this kinda thing. Maybe they consider him getting out of the hole to be "enough" but still, I feel that was only part one of "how tf does he get back to Gotham" Like idk. If you can't figure out how to get your character back into a location you specifically wrote to be difficult to get into... I think that calls for a rewrite.

[@Shenaldrac]

@@bigbadgammagnome Yeah. I think the worst part is people claiming that filling in these plot holes via theorycrafting and headcanoning is actually good because "it makes you think". I've seen some people act very superior because they enjoy theorizing and coming up with explanations for plot holes. To those people I say: Great! _Become writers and use that creativity to write stories!_ Don't waste that imagination doing another writer's work for them!

[@zephyr8072]

It’s why the smarmy line “audiences are expected to be reasonably intelligent” really annoys me. Implying people are somehow stupid for wanting pertinent information about a character’s situation. Even worse, yes, this notion that inventing the narrative for a story somehow makes you smart. It doesn’t. You should never manufacture story elements for a writer. That’s the writer’s job. It’s as ridiculous as being expected to finish a CG effect yourself. “What? Those Jedi are holding plastic glowsticks? I’m sorry if the movie expected you to have some intelligence and use a program to add the saber effects and sounds yourself. Viewers are so self-entitled!”

[@PogiAmiga_Sesshomaru]

"Has taken over the supposed brain of one of the crew members" is such a funny line that caught me off guard. Well done, Jay.

[@TheNoonish]

I missed the wording of that, thanks for pointing it out!

[@SteveSmith-wk9dx]

Low-key one of the harshest criticisms of the show.

[@zephyr8072]

It’s a pretty standard criticism of it tbh. A harsh criticism would be why would anyone create an AI with such an annoying accent.

[@StopDropDash]

to anyone who doesnt get it he says "Supposed brain" Implying that they might not have a brain because of their idiocy

[@Nerdcoresteve1]

Edna is totally the kind of person to keep tabs on every old superhero. She probably has contacts inside and outside the government just to keep in touch. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the first time she's made suits on the down low.

[@tkalle1299]

Or Facebook

[@BadTimeBabble]

Yeah I agree with this. Probably not the best example to use when it comes to plot holes as it can be easily explained quite logically. Doesn't really need explaining because of that, which is not like the Batman example.

[@billy6044]

@@tkalle1299 same thing

[@spensirmclife6549]

​@@tkalle1299 Facebook started the year the movie came out so that avenue wouldn't be available for her

[@endymallorn]

Christmas cards. That’s how she knows. She gets the “less-censored” version of the family picture - the one where Dash is slightly blurry, or Violet has a piece of herself missing. Very simple, makes perfect sense that Helen keeps Edna up to date and yet Edna, like any good mother-figure, gives Bob the ‘you never call, you never write’ guilt-trip, because she has to appear somewhat reluctant to do the one thing that’s ever brought her real joy, so that she finds out exactly what the hell her friend has gotten up to.

[@FrenchyMcToast]

Just my two cents, but I imagine if you contacted a close friend after a few years without contact, even if you're only looking for a favor, you'd use the opportunity to catch up with each other. In fact the start of the scene where Bob makes his request to Edna implies that they just finished such a conversation. Any other wrinkles could be ironed out by pointing out that she's extremely rich and well connected.

[@Hot4Thot]

Yes! If you meet an old friend/acquaintance you ask how their family are doing. It's polite.

[@Klinkertinlegs]

This was my thought

[@ironkook101]

​@@Hot4Thotstill doesn't explain how she'd have the children's measurements and exact body types

[@shelletemisfit9799]

​@@ironkook101 she's Edna Mode! designer to the star superheroes, and designing suits and knowing measurements is her own superpower imo. I'm sure Bob showed her pictures of them and she could easily know just by looking at them and scaling patterns cause that's how good she is and why she's the one the supers go to

[@ironkook101]

@shelletemisfit9799 the creator says in the very video we are commenting on that you could make up whatever suits you in order to explain away a plot hole. it's in the section about the dark knight. just because you can come up with a reasonable explanation does not mean that it's not a plot hole. we can come up with any sort of explanation we want, but the fact of the matter is that the content inside the movie does not even imply how she got all that information. we can attempt to explain it away, like "maybe bob told her about the kids!" or "bob surely drove over to her beforehand and showed her pictures" or "she checked a database with all this info" but the movie itself does not imply anything one way or another. it's a plot hole, even if the explanation seems reasonable to you. the dark knight example is more drastic, but they are virtually the same thing.

[@Cosmitasiarts]

When it comes to criticisms like A Quiet Place's "why didn't they move near the waterfall", people need to realize that no one is asking for a movie where the family is perfectly safe and nothing happens and they live happily ever after next to the river, people are asking for the movie to not introduce a solution so simple if they want us to care about everything else that happens in the story.

[@BWMagus]

Exactly. It's basically a form of Chekhov's gun--don't show us something that could resolve the plot, and then not use it or give us a reason WHY it's not used.

[@Potassiumkloride]

The waterfall solution is also extra annoying because it's the kind of plot hole where it wouldn't have taken a lot to make it a non-issue. An easy answer could have been to just make the river too unsafe for more than fishing trips. Maybe the aliens seek out water at night, or the river is prone to flash flooding. Both are understandable reasons not to live there, would explain why they couldn't have the mother give birth there, and could be conveyed through dialogue alone like, Kid: "Why don't we just live here all the time?" Dad: "The river's not safe at night. We'll be heading back long before the sun goes down."

[@mckenzie.latham91]

Also sorry but folks living out in the open, even in a tent, is not a good idea...Rain, storms, winter, snow etc. all of it is dangerous to people outside, especially in cloth tents

[@gavinwilson5324]

Honestly, the waterfall isn't a plot hole in the first place. It's established that the main characters are farmers, and they need to work their land to feed themselves. It's unlikely that fishing at the river alone could satisfy their needs, given how full the grain silo is, and how small and shallow the river is. There's a lot of environmental storytelling in that movie, and most questions about the plot can easily be answered by looking a little more closely.

[@cameronpolite2199]

I honestly don't think that really a good argument. Since moving to a waterfall offers a lot of issues. Where do they store their food, what do they eat. What about in the winter. Cover from weather. Etc

[@zephyr8072]

The irony of him citing Alien as a movie with a plot hole is not only that it's not a plot hole, but it's a horror movie where all the characters behave logically and intelligently and when they don't and break down it's with very good reason. This makes the thing that's hunting them actually scary because they're not a bunch of idiots, they feel like real people making real decisions. Also, Ripley behaving logically by following safety protocols and refusing to allow Cain back on board creates conflict with the rest of the crew. As in a massive argument so severe than in the director's cut it results in Ripley being slapped hard across the face by Lambert. Funny how he missed that. In fact Ripley specifically behaves logically throughout the whole movie, her decisions being entirely rational and constantly vindicated. She's also one of the most beloved heroines in all fiction. But nah, logical people are boring, bro. Trust me.

[@CoolJoshido212]

haha exactly

[@petery6432]

Also, wasn't it Ash, the secret traitor, who ultimately let Cain in? That also plays into how smart people could let an Alien in, because once it's in, Ripley can't do much.

[@canniblanch]

This! It's such an opportunity to find more creative ways to create conflict in movies but nope gotta go the cop out route and say "durrr the movie wouldn't exist then"

[@tronam]

So many people are missing the spirit of Patrick’s overarching points. Humans are not always rational or logical. They’re flawed emotional creatures who can act impulsively and make dumb decisions in retrospect because they don’t have all the information that an omniscient viewer might have. None of those things are “plot holes”.

[@zephyr8072]

@@tronam Watch the video before commenting, because Jay addresses this silly point and I ain't gonna repeat what he says. However I will add that something you and Patrick in his infinite density don't get is that humans are not always logical. But we try to be. We try to make the most rational decision we can even as our emotions influence that. Moreover, Patrick has an infantile view of storytelling and.. for that matter.. logic.. where he assumes that if people behave logically they will always succeed. This is patently false. As demonstrated, again, by Alien. You also miss the part where I said "and when they don't and break down it's with good reason". In Alien, Lambert panics, makes objectively dumb decisions and gets herself and Parker killed. Yet this isn't bad nor is her character stupid for doing so because the movie establishes very, _very_ good reasons for her to panic and freeze up such as it becomes a relatable situation where many of us would react the same way. That is how you do emotional and impulsive creatures. Not by just excusing an idiot plot with "well humans are dumb lol". Stop using bad excuses to defend trash takes.

[@themostdop3533]

I never really saw Edna knowing about the kids as a problem or a plot hole at all. During her intro with Bob where they're walking down the hall we hear him asking her about her work and what she's been up to, knowing how conversations with human beings typically go I think it just makes complete sense for her to have asked him about his life too, which naturally includes being married and his family. I think we just didn't get that scene of her asking him because we already know all about Bob, so this whole portion of the movie is more dedicated to the audience getting to know Edna. Hence we get to see Bob asking about her, but not so much her asking about him.

[@NonisLuck]

Perfect 👌

[@themostdop3533]

@Pinkamena! Yeah this is where it could kind of turn into "inventing scenes" or "writing the story for them" territory. However, if we're willing to grant the incredibly likely (pretty much definite, I think) possibility that Edna asked Bob about what he has been up to after they had to part ways as a result of the anti-super hero law, it's also totally in character for Edna and even Bob, to drop the question about making suits for the kids. I forget the scene but if Edna said she took the liberty to make them and no one asked, it's still possible for her to get their measurement information with very little explicit knowledge on it, considering she's this ridiculously amazing fashion designer.

[@Valentine011]

@@themostdop3533 also theyre all stretchy, right? it doesnt really matter if she gets their exact fit right

[@Toliman.]

Edna knows more about the Kids than their parents seem to, especially Jack's infant/toddler level of skill/aptitudes, i.e. Fire/Invisibility/Speed aren't really derivative of Stretching/Strength, so Edna must have some prescient knowledge of their abilities, especially when Jack 'freaks out' while mid-air. The Suit scene is probably only present to make Jack's transformation into a Devil, palatable. If you remove the suit scene, it could be traumatising to have the baby turn into a Devil child, not knowing that it's a joke, or how the audience should react. The problem of making Edna's involvement a Plot Hole, is that her entire existence is unexplained, implausible and undefined. If you start to define how/who/why/where/when, the character loses mystery, but also opens up new threads and story connections and problems. As long as Edna is Mysterious, the viewer won't speculate if she's working with the Villain, or she is the Villain, etc. This is kind of the problem with fantasy realism, it doesn't follow rules, and if you try to create plausible fantasy, you can step into quagmires where plausbile and implausible coexist, i.e. Jedi, Superhero Powers, Time-Travel, Infinite Money, being strong enough to lift a building, but "not strong enough" to rip someone's limbs off. Edna makes the suits over months, it's thus not clear if Edna saw the family, had a photo, surveilled them secretly, or was able to piece it together from hints, or was told by other people. She might have even had access to the surveillance by the government department that kept their identities secret, IDK. She took the liberty to make 3 suits for 3 very different children, knowing all about their requirements. I'm not sure it's a plot hole, because the existence of any super-suits is also a plot hole. They are implausible to begin with. The reveal, is a bit of a joke because we are 'demonstrated' by Edna that the suits work to reveal the abilities of the children before we even see them in action (if i remember correctly). This is a Checkov Gun type moment, because if we don't see Jack's suit, the 'comedy' surprise wouldn't work when Jack suddenly becomes a Devil monster child (ha ha, geddit?!). It would just be horrific/monstrous and freak people out. It's probably a convenient "out" that Edna is One Of, or the only "Super Suit" creator, given how integral she would be in the Hero/Villain economy. In a world filled with Heroes/Villains causing irreparable damage on a long-term basis, collateral damage would be incalculable. You'd also have to get repairs done, replacements, adapt materials, etc. It's a full-time business in secret, and the Heroes likely don't have a regular income. YMMV. Without an Edna Mentor character, we don't get the same reveal on Jack's 'demonic' like abilities to Transform/Ignite, sic, since the 'suit' reveal is a tease that Jack is 'special', not that it's over-engineered to be extremely safe. If it were made to be protective, it would basically wrap the baby up into a cocoon or dome of invulnerability. It helps that it's a kids movie, because the Super's and the Heroes would be very vulnerable if someone had a personal connection to multiple Heroes/Villains and their Alter-Ego's, especially once the government stepped in to regulate the Hero Business, sic. Edna knew all the vulnerabilities of the suit, the materials, addresses, et al. It's more probable that Edna works for both sides of the coin, and there's a murky grey area where people have to make a living in this world, that could be destroyed in an afternoon by someone with powers having a bad day. It makes more sense that Edna is a Moral/Grey Villain than a Hero, since Heroes would have an ethic to save everyone or give their services to those in need.

[@PMbarbieri]

@@Toliman. Edna is most likely funded by the NSA, if not an actual member herself, so it makes sense that she knows everything about all supers in the Incredibles universe. The NSA secret files in the bonus DVD include an interview to Elastigirl in which she lamented the fact that every suit she tries gets shredded by her stretchy powers after a while, and the agent sends her to Edna. Plus, when Bob goes to see her, we see there's military-level security at her mansion. Also, no, we already see Violet and Dash's powers plenty before Edna makes the suits for them. As for Jack-Jack's suit, I don't think it's there to foreshadow that he has powers: Edna explicitly states that the fire and bullet resistences are just the bare minimum for a super-suit, and she doesn't know what powers he has.

[@milkshakellie]

I hate the argument against plot holes that are “but if plot hole didn’t happen then blank couldn’t have happened”. As if the script can’t just be rewritten.

[@AllyMonsters]

It's not that it can't be rewritten (to be honest, they've all be rewritten so much is more of the problem). But also once production start and script changes happen, a lot of money has to be spent to rush to meet those changes. usually this is done has reshoots at a way later date. And that comes with a whole host of complications. And a lot of stuff that looks good on paper isn't so easy to just translate onto the screen,

[@zombieregime]

@@AllyMonsters On top of that entirely valid comment, there is also a lot of stuff that ends up on the cutting rooms proverbial floor for timing or story or any number of reasons. In Nostalgia Critics Fury Road review they point out the gaps in what is explained versus what is ....just here in this crazy ass world.... and how not everything needs a back story, or to be explicitly defined. The title and name escape me at the moment, but there was another movie where the ending left a lot up to interpretation, and when asked about what the ending meant the director/writer said there isnt an explanation, it was explicitly written to be left open to interpretation so that people could conversate about what they believed it meant. We dont need to be told every little thing, allowing the audience to fill in gaps on their own doesn't make something a plot hole. If anything, finding yourself in a conversation on the interpretation of a scene....that just means the art did its job....it inspired a thought you might not have had before.... It allows you the viewer to have some agency in the story by letting you imagine the where what and why of hanging threads. There being hanging threads does not imply that the story therefore can or even should be unraveled. But apparently, a close friend of superheros has no logical way of knowing about their children.....

[@AllyMonsters]

@@zombieregime I agree. Interpretations are such a double edged sword now adays though when it comes to writing in "geekdom". People like the idea of categorizing "lore" for profit, selling their interpretations rather then sharing and comparing. It's kinda odd, as it leads more so to a competition more times then not of whose interpretations are correct over the others. Theory crafting only to be shot down later by the devs/writers that left it open (be by bad writing or intentionally), as one example out of many.

[@kentonbaird1723]

It's almost like he's begging everyone to LOWER THEIR STANDARDS and stop criticising his favourite disney star wars movie.

[@taylorzen1]

exactly. if the removal of a plot hole "removes conflict and ends the story" then your story is bad and should be changed.

[@Santoryu90]

I do hate it when some people nitpick something insignificant and frame it like it was a huge problem. But when there are actual big inconsistencies in a story you’re not gonna see me basically say “shut up it doesn’t matter”.

[@CoolJoshido212]

thank you! i wish more people were like this

[@pokvirus5705]

The whole internet going "hAHa! got you. you story doesn't make sense" just suck all the air out of any other discussion we could make.

[@canniblanch]

I don't understand how people act like only two extremes are allowed to exist. Not every movie can be measured or watched the same way, it's so frustrating. Some movies are better experienced in thematic abstract ways, others are more rewarding when engaging with the in-world logic. People are really missing out if they pick just one way to watch every movie.

[@michaeleanthonyjr]

Would you instead strike them down with the sword in your mouth using your 3 Sword Style? When you think about it, a blade in the mouth is more compelling than an articulate speech.

[@benl2140]

​@@pokvirus5705 ...Why though? Even if a whole bunch of people are criticizing a movie for things that you see as irrelevant, what's stopping you from ignoring them and instead focusing on the things about the movie that you think do matter?

[@xenophon5354]

An easy solution to the quiet place waterfall scene is to have the son ask why they don’t live there and have Main Character explain he cannot build a suitable house or show that he tried or show a construction in progress. He has a goal of building them a house there but taking care of and feeding kids tends to get in the way of major construction projects. No to mention, most people lack the skills to build a house from scratch. Even rather handy types who can fix many things can't build a brand new house for 5 people from the ground up - especially in a post-apocalyptic scenario.

[@Poliostasis]

People don't seem to realise this, but they keep saying "WHY DOn't yOU JUSt build a HOUSe in ThE watERFALL", ignoring how deafeningly loud it is, trying to build a house inside it seems neigh impossible for regular people. Plus, building a house near the waterfall means the sounds won't be completely muffled anyways, cause you gotta be practically inside or next to it for it to work properly. I think it's easy to assume the house was already pre-built and there, and it was far easier to sound proof it instead of making a brand new place near the waterfall that may or may not work all the time with a deafeningly loud WATERFALL right next to your ears as you try to sleep.

[@xenophon5354]

@@Poliostasis Seems like a solid assumption to make that simply making due with an already well-built, well-provisioned, sustainable farm house is a rational preference to building a new house from scratch on unsuitable terrain. It would be a nightmare to try and build a log-cabin, about as good as he's going to get, while also providing for wife and children and trying to manage sound. Totally grant the film should have addressed it, but to frame it as the obvious choice makes perfect sense coming from modern people totally divorced from pre-modern living conditions.

[@egbertmilton4003]

@@Poliostasis Fuck off. They can just have tents near the water fall, or look for a riverside property. When they have an actual baby being born, staying in the house is certain death, so go to the waterfall for the birth. The house was a terrible place to stay anyways, there's no proper heating or fortification, so why bother to stay where you will certainly die, instead of moving to the least risky place of them all. It's certainly possible to sleep as a waterfall falls, it just becomes background noise, so don't give me that nonsense. The place near the waterfall will work all the time compared to the unreliable house, and to pretend otherwise is embarrassing.

[@devial9879]

​​@@xenophon5354 they're living in a place where farting too loud in your sleep has a decent chance of getting you and your entire family killed. I don't care how hard it is to build a house, living in a fucking tent is still preferable to "farting too loud will probably kill you"

[@the03k]

There really shouldn't need to be a "solution" though because it's not even a problem. It is ironically a very good point made in the OG video that Exci failed to counter, and shows just how dumb audiences can be. There being many, many, very obvious difficulties in creating a living space near a waterfall that people just... didn't think about I guess? That even when making an hour long video essay countering someone's else's video about plot holes, Jay failed to think about. Like, yeah, people really can just be that fucking stupid.

[@Kaatman]

Jay is clearly the kind of person who hears someone doing a gish gallop, and responds by tying them to a chair and proceeding to spend several hours responding to each and every faulty point rather than just telling them to shut up.

[@elvingearmasterirma7241]

And frankly, they are amazing for it. She has more emotional energy than like twenty people combined I swear

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

You think Patrick was doing a Gish gallop?

[@Zed012]

And she should never change

[@AlejandroPerez-mg3fc]

And that's incredibly entertaining to see

[@LordHookie]

i do that too

[@funnyvideoguy3216]

Ok I do think that it would be genuinely more horrifying if there was a horror movie where the characters made smart decisions and but the villain was even smarter and was able to kill them anyway

[@BWMagus]

Indeed. Like how many people went "Well, it sucks that Kyle Reese and Sarah Connor were arrested, but at least an entire police department of armed cops can protect them" and fucking nope.

[@officialmonarchmusic]

@@BWMagus Great example! I love it when people make competent decisions and still get outwitted or outgunned

[@thisxgreatxdecay]

"Instead of splitting up and looking for clues, let's stick together and make sure we don't get separated." _Eldritch monster proceeds to literally fuse their flesh together._

[@TheWickedWizardOfOz1]

As mentioned above, the movie you are looking for is called The Thing.

[@murciadoxial8056]

that's basically the thing, also alien

[@DMHR100]

Edna was in Helen wedding. You could assume they kept in touch through the years for her to tell her about the children. The actual plot hole of The Incredibles is that when they decide to ban super heroes, somehow supervillains also go away. It's established there're a few supervillains in the universe, but why would they stop committing crimes just after the supers are banned? It's never explained what happened with them.

[@bigbadgammagnome]

Huh, I never even considered that. In all my years of having watched and rewatched the Incredibles, the supervillains (minus Syndrome) have such little presence I honestly forgot they'd be an issue. I could give ideas for why it makes sense but at that point, like Jay pointed out, I'd just essentially be writing fan fiction because to my knowledge it's never actually explained in the movie.

[@mthemstandsformilk1965]

Police

[@DMHR100]

@@mthemstandsformilk1965 Unlikely

[@Hippo_Hegemony]

​@@mthemstandsformilk1965 police cant even handle regular crime

[@newerest1]

I'd assume it's the underlying theme of how some believe in batman for example the supervillains are all "created" by him.

[@VforVendettas]

I always assumed that Edna Mode has very little respect for others privacy. I mean she's been one of the few people who's in the know on a whole bunch of secret identities for many years. It also just seems to mesh with her character. She also doesn't respect personal space and these concepts are linked. Also, while Bob seemed surprised by the fact that she made all these suits, he did not seem surprised by her knowledge of his family that she should not know of. Including their kids' existence. Like she knew they had children, but hadn't seen each other since supers went into hiding, before they had them. And he didn't seem surprised by that. Sorry if any of that seemed garbled. It's 3 am and I can't sleep.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

Bob is the kind of guy who would call everyone he trusts with his secret identity to tell them Violet just turned invisible for the first time.

[@helenakri7282]

And, honestly, we are shown a couple of her interactions with Bob, surely there could be an off-screen moment when, after she felt the inspiration after working on a new suit she'd fish out (ei demand to know) if Bob is still with Elastigirl and, well, I don't think he'd just hold out on talking about his kids. Or at the very least he'd spill all the beans prompted by an offhand "how's the family?". His social circle is so small by that point, who else can he brag to about his son breaking the sound barrier or whatever.

[@rowanphillips3497]

@schwazrzerritter5724 yeah thats what ive been assuming what happened

[@Venzynt]

I think the thing which uncritical people most often miss, is that stories are written. Like, by people. Someone chose to have these plot elements in this order, and they could have easily chosen differently. That's why poor choices made in storytelling can be so frustrating or disappointing. A story isn't some inscrutable phenomenon we must accept as it is; in the case of failures in storytelling, things could have been better with more care and understanding towards the material.

[@theomegajuice8660]

I also think people can forget that stories are made to be experienced. They're not simulations of possible worlds but a fleshed out expression of the writer's imagination. Often adding an explicit explanation of a tangential element of the story would not improve the experience of watching it. It's not worth sacrificing screentime, pacing or the emotional atmosphere of the moment to e.g. explain the exact buoyancy distribution of a floating door that can support the weight of one person out the water but not two.

[@allexjr1270]

God, I wish I could give this a thousand likes because I agree with this soo much. It really infuriates me when people make an argument "Well humans aren't always logical, we make mistakes" Cause, like, no? those aren't people, they're characters in a piece of fiction that has been meticulously worked on over a long period of time When a character does something it's because the writer made them do it, when it's a stupid mistake that is very OoC then it's not the character's fault, it's the writer's. And those stories aren't set in stone. And if it doesn't make sense? no one's stopping the author from rewriting it

[@aaronmueller1560]

@@theomegajuice8660well the great thing about movies and visual formats (though this could even be done through non-visual formats) is that talented people can convey this information to an audience without taking a break in the story to give them a science lesson. For the example given, all you need to do is have something that approximates the size a piece of wood would have to be to support one person, and then support that by showing them both climbing on and it starting to sink. This tells the audience that it has the capacity to support one but not two people, and for those who have extra knowledge about how large a piece of wood should be to do that it doesn’t break their immersion either. This is an incredibly easy solution to see that doesn’t break the “flow” (the pacing or tone) of the story. But you know what does break the flow of a story? When you can’t find a way to integrate information that is crucial for the audience’s understanding of what the stakes of the situation are. If the audience is never given any indication that this floating door can only keep one person’s weight afloat, they will be left confused as to why there is any conflict in that moment, and there will be large disconnect between the audience and the film. The same is true of actual plot holes (mistakes in the writing, not just omitted information).

[@SpektralJo]

​@@theomegajuice8660 the important part here is tangential. If something is central to the plot then it should be adequately explained

[@theomegajuice8660]

@@SpektralJo Yeah I mean any honest answer to the question "Do plot holes matter?" is "The ones that matter do matter and the ones that don't... don't". As long as it's proportionate and not to the detriment of looking through other lenses for critical analysis (like theme, tone, symbolism etc.) then it's all in good fun!

[@AeonKnigh432]

The Another Life plothole is actually even worse. The whole bug thing is PROBABLY supposed to be because the diagnostic unit was automatically solving a bunch of problems on the ship, and without it, the ship couldn't maintain itself. But that just makes it worse because instead of being "Destroy a random wire to hopefully break the ship," it's "Destroy this VERY OBVIOUS AND SPECIFIC wire to DEFINITELY 100% without fail destroy the ship.

[@SoaringLettuce]

I think the funniest part of the Dark Knight Rises example is, The Dark Knight established that Bruce knew a smuggler who could somehow get into Hong Kong airspace without being detected and they only needed to bring it up to explain how he got back to Gotham.

[@TheNoonish]

Well that was also when he had access to all of his money and assets, including Fox.

[@troyareyes]

@@TheNoonishtrue, but we also know from the beginning of batman begins that even without his money and name, he seems to have to streetsmarts to travel all over the world.

[@TheNoonish]

@@troyareyes Well, a few things. For one, he wasn't trying to access a city that was completely closed off, he was just going places. Second, we can assume if he ever needed money, he still had access to it. He almost certainly had some degree of pocket money to pay for air travel. And thirdly, he wasn't on a tight schedule that required him to get somewhere before a bomb blew up. If he needed to get to Mongolia, or wherever he was at the start of that film, he had months or years to get there. It's ridiculous to say that because he's traveled the world before, that means he can get exactly where he needs to be without any issues. That scene leaves too many unanswered questions, and they didn't need it to happen that way. Just don't throw him in a hole on the opposite end of the world.

[@troyareyes]

@@TheNoonish first, I always found the "the city was closed off" a little silly. its a city of millions of people and hundreds of miles of unsupervised coastline. just because they blew up some bridges doesn't mean the city was impenetrable. honestly that's more of a plot hole in banes plan than batmans. second, we have no reason to believe Bruce used any Wayne resources during his self exile. he also burned his wallet and gave all the money on him to a homeless man before he left. third, and I'm gonna be a little sneaky here, but we don't know that the timeline of bruces prison arc directly coincides with the events in Gotham day-to-day minute-to-minute. Also did Bruce even know about the bomb? Also where are we getting the "without any issues" from? I'm sure there were issues, but when the climax of the movie is just around the corner I don't really care to see a montage of him forging passports and picking pockets.

[@TheNoonish]

@@troyareyes "Also where are we getting the "without any issues" from? I'm sure there were issues," But why have our hero dealing with significant issues off screen? It's part of the story, why is it not included in the story? I would say that it causes a hole if there's issues being solved for your characters off screen. You could just write a different story where those obstacles don't exist if you don't want to show the hero overcoming them.

[@Rowan_A_Boat]

Is knowing about the kids a plot hole? I just assumed she was rich and nosey.

[@sucyshi]

It's not. Her not knowing about the kids isn't a pre-established fact so her knowing them doesn't contradict anything, therefore not a plot hole.

[@CoolJoshido212]

@@sucyshi exactly

[@Rowan_A_Boat]

@@sucyshi I think I remember Edna knowing about Bob's marriage, & the scene where she says "god you've gotten fat" indicates they haven't kept in touch, so she might not know about them having kids? If anything, I guess the real issue is how she knew the kid's *specific* powers & limitations. Also Edna definitely didn't know about Jack-jack not having powers. Meaning whatever her sources were, they weren't great.

[@gracekim25]

@@Rowan_A_Boat eh she’s a genius and was probably pretty good at guessing 😂

[@gracekim25]

I never questioned how she knew their powers. She probably studied their behaviour to prepare for every situation

[@oppositeofbatman]

Another thing I think Patrick misses about the community episode is that Abed's story only played out according to his own inner logic, whereas in a realistic (and good) scenario, different characters would not be on the same page on everything. That's why (good) writers obviously don't agree with every decision their character makes.

[@calebshort4900]

thanks, Satan

[@HerohammerStudios]

​@@calebshort4900 always the voice of reason

[@tsukasa0802]

(good) is a subjective value judgement. Something being realistic doesn't make it (good). Enter the Spider-Verse is so surrealistic but I would give it the subjective evaluation of really fucking good, but that's subjective. Likewise, writer that you like are not automatically (good). That's an even more uselessly subjective statement.

[@eidolon1426]

​@@tsukasa0802 A writer that consistently produces internally consistent stories would almost inherently be, by definition, "a good writer." I could subjectively HATE their stories for whatever personal preferences or ulterior motives you could hypothetically come up with, but that would not change the fact that the writer is of high quality, in that they are consistently producing products OF high quality. If there *is* such a thing as a "good *story,"* then there is surely such a thing as a "good *storyteller,"* being someone who is consistently successful at writing good *stories.* If 2+2+2=6, and 2+2=4, then therefore 2+4=6. The math doesn't change no matter my like or dislike of the individual numbers or equations.

[@BWMagus]

@@tsukasa0802 No, it isn't. Writers have a job; those that can consistently perform that job are good, while those who fail are bad. Much like rocket scientists have a job, and those who build rockets that don't fucking explore on lift-off are good, compared to those who don't manage that task.

[@redtaileddolphin1875]

The line “Somehow, Batman returned” took me OUT and felt like it would have been the point of the entire piece if it wasn’t less than 15% of the way into the video

[@rudolfambrozenvtuber]

As someone who has also had this video living rent-free in their head for years, I appreciate your service

[@CoolJoshido212]

same here!

[@mightyrobot42]

That video is almost single-handedly responsible for keeping me from subscribing to Nebula.

[@nenmaster5218]

Plot Hole Rabbit Hole kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWq7mWqVjduhfKs kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnOslHSQrauZqMU

[@MadRoadDriving]

Same here. I found that video so obnoxious I actually unsubscribed from Patrick’s channel. And that’s despite agreeing with his larger point (that at the time, there was way too much complaining about “plot holes”).

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

@@MadRoadDriving have you resubscribed since then to see all the great stuff he's been doing this past year or so?

[@Gravewhisper]

The Alien acid scene being included was funny. I mean, that is exactly how acid works. Acid can only dissolve so much material until it neutralizes itself, which it always does eventually. So it would actually only be a plothole if the little splot of acid kept eating through the ship and never stopped. Btw. the only plotholes that are really egregious imo are when things contradict the laws of nature as established by the setting, like a magical acid that never stops dissolving stuff in an otherwise wanting to seem realistic sci-fi setting.

[@LtPulsar]

Sort of. If the acid had simply been strong enough, that small amount might have been capable of eating all the way through the outer hull without being neutralised completely.

[@Zepher0987]

People really do think acid is limitless corrosion magic and not a chemical reaction.

[@ZenoDovahkiin]

@@LtPulsar Which is why the crew reacted the way they did.

[@Gravewhisper]

@@LtPulsar hardly, even superacids have their limits, especially when eating through metals.

[@pyropulseIXXI]

@@LtPulsar It is amount, not 'strength.' It is used up by reacting; the strength of that reaction doesn't magically make it go through more material. 1 mL of acid, whether strong or weak, can only react through a given amount of matter before it is 'used up.'

[@mementomori5580]

One thing to say about the Harry Potter thing: It was probably not mentioned in the Movie (I don't remember anymore), but at least in the books it was mentioned that Portkeys don't work on Hogwarts (same as apparating and probably any kind of teleportation-like magic), so any other Portkey wouldn't work. BUT the trophy at the end of the maze was always meant to be a Portkey that brings the winner back to the beginning (to show everyone the winner), which is also why Harry and dead Cederic were greeted by a band and all such. So yeah, with that context, it makes a lot of sense that they would try to make Harry win the Tournament, because all they had to do was to change the Portkey to teleport the winner to Voldemort, as that is the only place/portkey that works withing the premises of Hogwarts.

[@StarWarsomania]

Plus, once Voldemort finishes off Harry Potter and finishes revealing in how Evil (TM) he and his Death Eaters are, they have a working Portkey that will take them right to the center of Hogwarts, where Dumbledore, the Minister of Magic, and every other important magical figure is helpfully convened to be taken out at once, totally unsuspecting. They will be handicapped by trying to protect the children, whereas Voldemort doesn’t give a fuck if children die during his coup.

[@vitorschein8073]

Why not aproach Harry in the quidditch world cup, outside Hogwarts and just start throwing lots of enchanted objects at him until one hit and it is done without having to count on loads of luck and a year of waiting, since the guy that is involved in the plan was already there, also if you are willing to wait an entire year, couldn't he just wait for the next vacation and kidnap Harry outside Hogwarts without anything to do with the cup?

[@Cyberleader672]

@@vitorschein8073 First point has a great risk to it. If Crouch attacks Harry and gets caught then Dumbledore will find a weak, defencless Voldemort and easily imprision him. The tournement works so well because almost everything Crouch does is also what Mad Eye would do i.e Making sure Harry survives the tasks. Second point, Harry is protected during the holidays. The Tournament is the only place Dumbledore can't put any security on him because the Minisrty wants the games to be interfered with

[@vitorschein8073]

@@Cyberleader672 but he clearly isn't protected on summer since he and his cousin are attacked by dementors in order of the Phoenix, couldn't it be done then? Cause many things could have gone wrong with the cup plan

[@Cyberleader672]

@@vitorschein8073 The Dementors weren't sent by Voldemort. They were sent by Umbridge who works for the Ministry and knows about the protection. And yes, things could go wrong during the cup but almost nothing that would reveal Mad Eye as Crouch.

[@alexross1816]

I love the part in Goblet of Fire that Evil David Tennant disguised as Brendan Gleeson says "Only a powerful confundus charm cast by an exceptionally powerful wizard could have hoodwinked [the Goblet of Fire]." In hindsight, he's, of course, referring to himself. "I don't know who did this act, but he sounds handsome."

[@esmeecampbell7396]

He's probably a very charismatic villain with a massive penis that all the ladies are very satisfied by... why are you looking at me like that Albus?

[@megahobbit5972]

The obama prize meme right there xD

[@Catheidan]

My issue with "why did they have to use the trophy as the port key" is a plot hole is that Voldemort is a drama queen and has to make everything as dramatic as possible.

[@liliesaregoodfortheliver2954]

​@@Catheidanalso I think Voldemort wasnt ready for the resurrection until the end of the school year. He'd been working his way up from a literal shadow of his former self to a weird flesh gremlin.

[@corvididaecorax2991]

​@@Catheidan​ It is pretty easy to come up with possible canon compliant explanations for the port key being the trophy. In addition to Voldemort being too into dramatics to live, there is also the possibility that the wards around Hogwarts block port keys normally, but there was an exception put up for the trophy because it was intended to port the winner out of the maze. Which also neatly explains why it manages to port Harry back when he touches it again, as the original port key enchantment was still there unactivated. Would be nice to have a line or two about that in the actual book or movie though.

[@CaptainBagman]

In the Harry Potter books it's established many times that Hogwarts has strong magical protections and that you cannot freely teleport in an out. The portkey was an exception since it was allowed as part of the contest, and the villain took advantage of that. There is a subset of plot holes created by adaptations, in which the explanations are lost during the adaptation process.

[@MinecraftImplosion]

still counts as plot hole , within the film

[@jcs5347]

it's established two books later still a problem in the book it comes from.

[@pikapowns]

​​​@@jcs5347h LMAO that's the book lag that JK does. Like when she added time travel everyone was complaining about what happened to TIME TRAVEL after the next book came out so she had Neville knock over the shelf that had all the time turners in existence.

[@Jdudec367]

@@jcs5347 not really

[@TheWAYF]

Umm... No? Why would the tournament allow a special tournament exception for portkeys when they DIDN'T KNOW there was going to be a portkey?

[@autodidacticpoly]

I actually agree that the Edna thing isn't really a plot hole, there's a lot of explanations how she would know, i.e "Money", "ties to the government", "having actually been in contact with the family just not seen them in person for a while" etc. It's still "plausible" while supporting the plot, and I think plot holes are when things are "implausible" just to make the plot happen.

[@SSJLucas117]

There's also the fact that it's possible that both Dash and Violet got their powers when they were very young, given that Jack Jack got his powers as a baby and prior to that part in the movie they thought he didn't have any powers. This means that she could have learned about their powers before not talking with them for awhile. And that assumes she doesn't get visits from Helen from time to time, which we can assume she does given what she says to her after beating Helen with a newspaper.

[@nenmaster5218]

Plot Hole Rabbit Hole kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWq7mWqVjduhfKs kzbin.info?search_query=Multiverse+of+Madness%3A+An+Unbridled+Cataclysm+ kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnOslHSQrauZqMU

[@realistic_delinquent]

Bob visits Edna at her home to get his old suit repaired. It would be weird if he didn’t leave without at least bringing them up.

[@joelochoa2340]

The real nitpick/plothole is how did she know the kid's exact measurements. They are constantly growing and I doubt most parent can off the cuff tell you the exact waist/chest/wrist/ankle/thigh/neck/height measurements for their still growing kids. So you have to assume she did some research to get that info since she had not seen them in person for years (or at the very least a while) before making the suits. The powers make sense, Bob probably commented on them in passing, but the fitting would have been impossible to get as perfectly as she did without them visiting her and getting meticulously measured recently, which makes this implausible and plot hole. A really tiny one that no one in their right mind would really care about except maybe tailors. Reply

[@117Ender]

@@joelochoa2340 the only counter is, their mom is eslastic girl, meaning her suit stretchs and etc and still goes back to being form fitting. so what if that material is used, that fits the body, thus at most, its the height that is issue, but that could be solved, cause ppl use pixels to measure characters to figure out their height, so she could have done some math to get their heights...does it seem absurd, sure, more absurd vs superpowers not really, could the twists be the edna has a superpower for measurements, that she can see a picture, and know exactly how big/tall/wide/mass etc. maybe but this plothole theory while it points out something, that isnt explained on screen, but most ppl will forgive the logisitics of that happening, the point being is an audience is willing to forgive logistics of something, to keep the story from going on tangent or side quest of how edna figured it out, cause shallow answers, raises more questions. so leaving the question alone at the smallest point, how did the superhero's costume designer that has created multiple suits for mulitple powers, find out the powers and measurements of x characters? parents talk? share pictures?post on fb? idk the point is that isnt story breaking, but also an interesting spin off, like jack jack and edna would have been great characters to explore...

[@MakeVarahHappen]

The funniest bit about the Martha complaints is that it's a *real-life coincidence.* Two different writers on two different books years apart named two characters the same name. Now that making Batman pause and completely change his mind? That's a contrivance.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@kaza12345678 what do you mean the real reason is the multiverse? The real reason is that two different writers named different characters the same name.

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@kaza12345678 do you think that the universe changed in between the shot where Batman holds the spear and the shot where he reacts to the name Martha being said? What are you talkin about my dawg?

[@MakeVarahHappen]

@kaza12345678 Be better at it

[@CassianStone]

@kaza12345678 Whether it was an attempt at trolling or at making a point: that was just embarrassing. Shame on you.

[@The.Orange.Wizard]

@kingkazaWord of advice: Trolling is more than just saying nonsense, you can’t get a rise out of people if they are too confused to get upset.

[@BillPeschel]

What amuses me about Patrick's rant against calling Batman's return to Gotham a plot hole is that he contradicts his own definition of what a plot hole is. Bane blows all the bridges and mounts armed guards around the island to make sure no one sneaks into Gotham. But Batman sneaks into Gotham without showing us how he did it. That violates, in Patrick's his own words, "a previously established rule about its own universe."

[@ShadowMewto]

It doesn’t necessarily break an established rule, its not like bane put up a magical force field that surrounded Gotham or something, it just doesn’t show us critical information to the main characters journey

[@555Soupy555]

imagine how sick that scene would be though him sneaking around unable to take anyone out due to everything being so well guarded and having to become the night, using cleverness and knowing this could be it if he fucks up!! kid me woulda been a batman fan on the spot

[@ShadowMewto]

@@555Soupy555 Buddy it sounds like you just want to play Sly Cooper.

[@meltingmug]

@@ShadowMewto Holy sh*t, I haven’t seen anyone mention Sly Cooper in ages. What an absolutely amazing game, I truly wish it had an official PC port, but sadly, y’know, Sony likes keeping their stuff to themselves, sooo… 😐

[@AlastorD]

Late respond but people seem to forget that the last time we saw the Bat before Batmans capturing was when he parked it in the Batcave under Wayne Manor. Wayne Manor is outside the City and outside the occupied area. Bruce Wayne got back to Gotham because he learned to travel around even without money as established in Batman Begins and then uses the Bat to enter the occupied zone undetected.

[@omnishyguy]

One small nitpick with your video: you missed a chance to cite Picard's speech to Data where he finishes with something like, "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose; that is not a weakness, that is life." A great quote to live by, and incidentally a perfect counter for Patrick's "perfectly logical characters would make for a boring movie" argument.

[@bearnaff9387]

That's the kind of story I always want to see - one where nobody holds the idiot ball. Unfortunately, the kind of minds that can produce that sort of story don't tend to write screenplays. The closest I've seen to a story where everyone attempts to satisfy their desires within the bounds of their ethics to the best of their ability, but nobody does dumb things to push the plot forward and nobody is one-dimensional if they get any exposure at all is the TV adaptation of the Murdoch Mysteries. It was always great to watch because I was constantly pleasantly surprised when characters _not_ do the stupid thing that would propel the plot, and instead things happen because someone needs them to happen for understandable reasons.

[@gustavoaraujopenha8463]

@@bearnaff9387 Alderamin no Sky is an anime which don't make other characters dumbers so the protag seems intelligent like is common on the smart protag gender.

[@krat2242]

and a good time to try reckless or risky tactics and throw the whole scene into a big scramble where our hero does eventually win through determination and sweat :3 When making the correct move will make u lose, do the opposite, make your opponent second guess his own decisions :3

[@man4437]

This actually reminds me of something I had pointed out to me before: just because a choice doesn't work out doesn't necessarily mean it was bad. Think about it. If you want to, let's say, graduate from high school and you need a 90% grade on your final test, which is going to be more productive: getting wasted every night for a week, or studying every night for a week? Obviously the second, but if you then don't pass your test, does that mean you made the wrong choice? Obviously not. Less obvious example, should you "follow your dreams" or find a consistent career? There's a fairly overwhelming chance what you're truly passionate about, I'm sorry to say, will not work out. If (even against the fact that your economic power and capacity to earn more than a meager living is non-existent in the modern economy) your goal is to make as much money as possible, and you're not too big on your "passion", the choice can be fairly easy. If you want to succeed in something you actually believe in, you might go the other way. But if either of these doesn't work out, it can be due to numerous outside factors. Even if it is "your fault", the choice to take one of the two paths was still a calculated choice with an end goal in mind. The chance that a stable job doesn't work out is slim, it's still the correct choice if you want a consistent income, even if it doesn't work out. A passion project has a small chance of working out, it's still a choice made based on what you wanted to do and it not being successful doesn't make it a bad decision and it being successful in turn doesn't mean that anyone who does so will succeed (as celebrities love to lie to people)

[@bananian]

​@@bearnaff9387 I mean idiots do exist and there are plenty of real life inspiration to draw from. 😂

[@TheTwitGamer]

The issue I have with Patrick's argument on a Quiet Place about how characters acting logically would be boring is... then just don't establish there's a waterfall nearby as you say. The story works perfectly fine if you ignore the waterfall. The story setup its own plot hole... just don't have it. Or add some dialogue that explains they would move to the waterfall but they discovered it too late and moving a pregnant woman at this stage would be a bad idea. Completely maintains the story and the characters are acting logically and emotionally at the same time.

[@RogueAstro85]

Yes! Or have that be the climax. Have the dad discover the waterfall but make it really far away and they need to get there because the wife is about to go into labor. Then you could even have a scene of the father and one of his kids head to the waterfall to scope it out and have a cathartic moment where they get to yell and feel relieved for the first time in over a year. Them making the trek with a very pregnant woman would be added tension and watching them adapt their quiet lifestyle to accommodate camping on the journey. They figure out how to make a new home by the waterfall in the end and the family is happy. For an added tension scene have there be a drought and the waterfall starts to trickle.

[@abbsz]

I always assumed they couldn’t move near the waterfall bc there wasn’t a house there. They moved into a made house. They would have to make their own house if they moved near the waterfall which would require them to make noise away from the waterfall in order to get materials.

[@ThePenAndTheRose]

Miss your content. Hope you’re well Jay.

[@jobreau1725]

Same, I miss Jay.

[@luciuseclipse]

I think the better assumption for the Incredibles is that after she made Bob's suit, she wanted to make more suits for fun so she looked into Helen and found out she has kids too.

[@nenmaster5218]

Plot Hole Rabbit Hole kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWq7mWqVjduhfKs kzbin.info?search_query=Multiverse+of+Madness%3A+An+Unbridled+Cataclysm+ kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnOslHSQrauZqMU

[@helicopter_traffic]

well yes, but she wouldn’t find out about the powers? they’re kept highly secret by the government

[@bookwermofthefandoms]

And also found their clothes sizes?

[@meganek0597]

@@bookwermofthefandoms She is THE Edna

[@vidmastereon]

A quick fix would be to have helen ask her how she got all this information on her kids with edna saying how

[@eden7622]

I make it a point to watch Die Hard every Christmas Eve, so I’m fairly well versed with it. If I remember correctly, the building is wired right into the grid, the power can’t be shut down locally. Grubber needed the police to shut off the power to get into the vault.

[@jeremypnet]

I’m sure the bad guys even make that same point in the film. You asked for miracles. I give you the F B I.

[@weirdowithacello3481]

Do they explain why? I've never seen a building whose mains didn't run through a switch (or several, depending on the size of the building). I can't think of any benefits you would get, off the top of my head. Not to mention, its mere existence would probably cause every copy of the NEC to burst into flames within a 50 mile radius.

[@KillahMate]

Yes, it's explicitly established in the movie - the characters explain out loud, in the course of their natural conversation, why they need the FBI. Die Hard is _very_ well written.

[@PixelOverload]

Sure, except that's a bunch of nonsense, _every_ building is "wired right into the grid" (unless they're explicitly off-grid, obvs) _through_ a distribution panel, full of breaker switches that can shut-off the power, NOT having those is a massive safety hazzard that no building in-use since the 1890s would risk

[@WerthPower]

So my takeaway here is that, in Die Hard, it is *very clearly* stated TWICE that the circuits for lock 7 cannot be cut locally. Now, per these replies, in the real world this is not a thing and an building code violation. BUT it is not actually a plot hole by these definitions. A plot hole is when a movie contradicts ITSELF, not the real world. Die Hard is not the real world, even if it is intended to be very similar. Jurassic Park says we can extract dinosaur DNA from misquitoes in sap. In reality, we can't. You can accept this or not, but the movie does not actually contradict itself by saying so.

[@DillonChichester]

Edna knowing the powers doesn’t even seem like a plot hole to me. She designed a suit for JackJack without the parents even knowing the powers. So it makes sense she knows things about the others.

[@valentinegonsalves7322]

That's Jay's point. The rest of that movie is so good, you do not notice. But if you did...if it got in the way of your enjoyment...then... It doesn't make it a bad movie. Just that its a thing that should have been addressed. Compared to Rise of Skywalker. The dagger is the shape of one piece of wreckage of the Death Star that's been lying on this planet for three decades. Amd somehow Palpatine returned.

[@joshbuoy8661]

@@valentinegonsalves7322 What? Unless I’m missing something it seems that you missed Dillion’s point. I think what they’re basically saying is, “X happened, so it makes sense that Y is probably true. Therefore Y is not a plot hole.” which means Jay’s point you mentioned doesn’t apply for this case. X = Edna designing a suit for Jacjack without the parents knowing his powers Y = Edna knowing the other family members’ powers

[@DillonChichester]

@@joshbuoy8661 ^^^^

[@valentinegonsalves7322]

@@joshbuoy8661 Nah. I was agreeing with Dillion. I was expanding, not disagreeing. Given a chance I'd rather have minor slip-ups like this that are something a few people can catch, rather than a glaring gap in logic and reason like Rise of Skywalker.

[@potchatokpotchatok6084]

I think his suit wasn't for superpower it was just protective

[@RandomGuy2_Electric-Boogalo]

Here's a fun fact. I described the creatures from a quiet place to my father (who has no idea about the movie because he's blind and can't watch movies) and literally his first idea for how to survive such an invasion was to live someplace where its really loud all the time because they couldn't hear you XD I didn't even have to bring up the concept of a waterfall within the plot. With literally no knowledge of the plot at all whatsoever, he already knew instinctively that it makes the most sense.

[@slaapt]

About the waterfall and making mistakes: It would mean they'd been making the same mistake for years on end. Everytime they went to the waterfall to vent, or think about going to the waterfall to vent, they never ever went "man, it would be nice if we could make noise all the time, like we do at the waterfall."

[@danielshore1457]

I think the problem is with arguing with they should have moved to the waterfall is that they have no shelter or insulated warmth there. Outside of the monsters it's not practical to live there with children and a newborn like bacteria infections and exposure still exist.

[@rudolfambrozenvtuber]

​@@danielshore1457 Okay but that's kind of besides the point? Patrick views it as a mistake apparently

[@schwarzerritter5724]

People get used to danger. After a while, they will prefer the comfort of a house over the safety of a tent near the waterfall. People in real life live in areas that are prone to natural disasters.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

@@rudolfambrozenvtuber That is correct. Dropping a 5-pound object is something you have more control over than a natural disaster.

[@TheRedstonian]

Also the fact that, like... It'd be absolutely hell to set up a farm up by the waterfall, and chopping down trees to make room for it is not exactly a quiet event. Definitely audible over the waterfall, versus the farmhouse they already have set up.

[@nuggetmaster5181]

I think it’s completely reasonable and character accurate to say that Edna would know not only about their kids and powers, but their exact measurements as well

[@NoodleKeeper]

I assume she's met the two older kids at some point, and if not. That she either accessed a super database or just spied on them.

[@rmsgrey]

Yeah, the family has been part of a government program for a decade or two. Anyone with enough clearance can probably find out way more than just their powers...

[@amwhik]

also, it's possible Edna and Bob just...talked. they are old friends so it's likely they also had a bit of smalltalk outside the moments we see, and general questions about life/family aren't uncommon

[@DrazkurHW]

Any reason you can think of is valid because the movie works perfectly without explaining it AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, the movie would not benefit from explaining that... Because it's not the point. If you get distracted by that so much that you call it a plot hole, get checked

[@gwynevans6440]

Riker is "emotionally driven" in the same way 90% of my teenage years were spent going between the bathroom and bedroom due to my "high emotional drive".

[@ClarkKentai]

Dude same, my biceps looked awesome though

[@Boredman567]

"Riker to Bridge: If you need me, I'll be in Holodeck 4."

[@tryhardfinessedyou]

High emotional drive. I loled irl

[@level3xfactor]

The R.I.K.E.R Method

[@alvarocalcedoriveiro4731]

Regarding the waterfall debate... I think a line of dialogue would have done a lot of good. It makes sense for a family to settle in a house; They've clearly put a lot of effort into it with the lights an so on. The father could have taken the child to the waterfall and told him that they planned to live there but they haven't had time to settle in or whatever... or a conversation with the wife who refused because she felt unprotected in the wilderness...

[@RogueAstro85]

Or just "If we can figure out a way to grow crops here, this is where we'll live" and have them try to set up irrigation from the river to grow crops. But not doing the birth there is pretty dumb

[@murciadoxial8056]

hell, just have a line of dialogue that explains that this river floods every autumn and every spring, there

[@Sarah12471]

Hell, even if you don't will want any of that, just have the father say that he only found this recently

[@trekkiejunk]

How would they have even built a house near the waterfall? I'm sure chopping down a bunch of trees for lumber would have made a lot of noise. On top of that, did they have the tools to do it? And where would they put it? They couldn't put it UNDER the waterfall. It would have to be a distance away, at which point the protective sound of the waterfall would be fare less effective.

[@murciadoxial8056]

@@trekkiejunk hmmm... that's actually a fair point, but a tent area could work as a solution

[@clem-lv2rw]

Regarding Patrick's "people don't act logically" point, I think he might be conflating "logically" and "rationally". While they are very similar, I'd argue they don't quite mean the same thing. Humans often act emotionally, letting their emotions take the wheel, and are therefore acting irrationally, but that doesn't mean that there isn't an internal train of thought that if it was laid out you could say "yeah, I understand why you did that. Not the optimal way to do that, but I understand _why_ you chose to do that". Acting illogically on the flip side means that the action has no real reason behind it. That it is completely absurd and does not follow any train of thought. Humans can act illogically, but that is _usually_ something only actual nutcases do.

[@dopamine5170]

i feel like instead of using the quiet place example he could've used some kind of horror example in which someones shock or fear clouds their judgement and they make a dumb decision that ultimately gets them killed (although, im not sure if people actually use them as plothole examples - it just makes a good point for his irrationality = good drama point)

[@clem-lv2rw]

​@@dopamine5170 I'd argue most people don't call those event a plothole, since people very much _can_ act illogically when in fight or flight situations, but considering how Patrick has misrepresented stuff a few times in his video, I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd used that as an argument. Either way, thanks for raising a point I hadn't thought of!

[@enderkatze6129]

I don't think even actual nutcases act illogically. To Them, what they are doing makes sense, hence they are doing it.

[@MCXL1140]

I think the point that he's trying to communicate is not that people don't act rationally or logically it's that they don't necessarily act rationally or logically from an external point of view. When you yell at your screen because the character is doing something dumb, what really matters is are they doing something dumb for rational reasons or are they doing something dumb for no reason at all. Ultimately I think Patrick really fails to communicate that point clearly but that's where a lot of these nitpicks and criticisms come from. And that's what he means by a boring picture when people act logically, he doesn't mean that people have to be completely schizoid Waves that are all over the place, he's saying that they're imperfect actors acting on whatever knowledge that they have. Most of the criticism at the time and to this day about plot holes and movies comes from a very external perspective, failing to reference it in the story itself.

[@ShadowMewto]

Somehow you managed to get this exactly wrong. Acting logically is not acting on your emotions and instead doing only the most optimal thing. Rationality is how a character can use emotions to justify logically incorrect actions. If a character acts irrationally, it is something the character knows is wrong but does anyway. If something is illogical, it means that it doesn’t follow perfect reasoning.

[@thevioletbee5879]

The good ol’ year since upload internal debate of “have they quit, are they taking a break, or are they prepping some ass-destroyingly huge project?”

[@tyler-df3wy]

Patrick: movies aren’t wrong or stupid because characters don’t think the same way as you Also Patrick: you’re wrong and stupid because you don’t think the same way as me

[@Tundra.]

@@bkbeatty6087 He was so invested in defending RJ's work that when JJ changed things he couldn't hold back. He had a brief moment of lucidity in recognizing what a terrible mess it all was, and forgot that he's supposed to protect NuWars at all costs.

[@cranberryrosebud]

@BK Beatty he seemingly got very attached to TLJ, which is funny, cause he was a member of the group making fun of adults criticising the sequels, for being too attached to SW, since they're movies "about space wizards intended for children" It's almost like if you get invested in a story, it's frustrating to see it being thrown out the window, huh, Patrick?

[@younggod5230]

As someone who isn't too often bothered by plotholes: the "plotholes dont matter" thing is absolute cope. The reason you don't care about plotholes would be because a. you didn't notice it, or b. it just doesn't evoke a negative, frustrating emotion in you. More power to you, but many fkr many people, plot holes do evoke a very negative nagging frustration, that, like exci says, might ruin any other enjoyment. And that's valid. So by all means, keep talking about plot holes.

[@CyberChrist]

He didn't notice such plot holes because he's a simpleton shill...

[@termitreter6545]

Imo the real big plotholes you dont even need to notice. You might not get that something is missing, but you feel that the result is just empty. Like, Man of Steel? Idk about specific plotholes, but I can see that the movie doesnt really has a clear narrative or message its build around. Does power come with responsibility, and does that mean we need to let people die to protect ourselves, or do we need to save people and disregard our secrecy? Snyder went for emotoinal outcomes, trying to ape better movies, without the understanding or effort to actually build the conclusoin. Or Dark Knight Rises, it just feels hollow to have this giant comeback narrative, but then skip a huge part of the final challenges that Bruce needs to overcome. IIRC both before (how did he get from hole to gotham) and after (what about the bomb). Makes the movie feel like a jumbled mess. You dont need to think about it, that just passively degrades the movie. And sometimes its also just a big part of the movie having a lack of direction in the first place. The kinda plotholes that only matter if you look at them, thats where it gets more complex. But at that point it also gets increasingly subjective. Worth the discussoin, but ofk the thematized video already fails on the most superficial level.

[@CyberChrist]

@@termitreter6545 Some people are so braindead (only when watching movies, _of course_) and lack so much baseline references they fail to notice it. #TheNewNormal

[@termitreter6545]

@@CyberChrist Yeah, some people just watch movies with a very naive, childlike approach. I dont think thats a major issue in itself tho. Nor is it even a new thing. The problem is if people then take their childlike experience so seriously they get offended at others. (like the plothole video^^) But as said, I think it still degrades the movie and experience as a whole. You cant present a challenge and then skip a big part of it, and expect it to have 100% as a whole. As long as you dont approach the movie with a 3-year olds level of intelligence, I suppose.

[@CyberChrist]

@@termitreter6545 Well, let's not insult toddlers ;)

[@hexcodeff6624]

The eagles aren't a plot hole. There are multiple themes regarding the journey that explain why they can't do it. Gandalf doesn't take the ring because of it's tremendous power and effect, guess why he doesn't give it to the eagles. Frodo stays off the road to stay undetected by the ringwraiths, guess where he is even easier to spot.

[@cranberryrosebud]

the Nazgul literally have dragons, it's not like the air is some proetcted space where enemies can't get them, I don't understand why people think eagles could just fly with the one thing Sauron's keeping tabs on, completely undetected and left alone.

[@Gloomdrake]

​@@cranberryrosebud while they _are_ definitely dragons, it would make Tolkien very upset that you called those dragons dragons

[@SkorjOlafsen]

Eh, it's still a problem that the option was never brought up, when many other options were. The answer that I believe Tolkien had in mind is from the deep lore, but never brought up in the LOTR itself. The Wizards, Eagles, and Ents were each sent to Middle Earth with a job to do, and the humans getting butchered by Sauron's forces is the Wizards' job to handle; the Eagles have their own job to do. Much as the Ents don't care, until shown how it affects their job.

[@ATEN_DNAR]

One of the most commonly cited and misunderstood "plot holes." I wouldn't even categorize it as a plot hole. It's fantasy contrivance at worst, and is much better addressed in the books.

[@egbertmilton4003]

Yeah, it really isn't if you think about it. The Eagles not only have their own affairs their dealing with, they aren't demonstrated to have adequate combat abilities against other flying opponents, especially Ringwraiths, and are more likely to be spotted by Sauron and his forces. The whole reason they choose Frodo is due to being a Hobbit who has been raised in the unambitious, calm Shire. He is a member of an unambitious species, and has had a life with little great desire, meaning that he is especially resistant to the Ring's whispering, which those eagles likely aren't. They would not have the same resistance, and things would go south quickly putting a ring near them.

[@chronica6457]

I respect Jay for making an entire 1 hour video just debunking a random video that's been rent free in their head. I wish I had the platform to this with every shitty take I see on the internet

[@soupmix211]

omg same, there's some things i could rant REALLY hard about for hours

[@Hot4Thot]

Podcasting is free, go fill ya boots!

[@peffiSC2source]

Don't let your dreams be memes. Go get 'em champ!

[@TheOdot123]

if only there was a site to broadcast yourself perhaps in a tube format

[@calvingarbacik272]

I mean, Edna was at Bob and Helen's wedding, so I'd say it's reasonable to assume that she's a family friend and could get to know their kids that way

[@calvingarbacik272]

Which isn't to say that there aren't improvements to be made, I mean dash and vi could've gotten Kari to babysit Jack-Jack as a compromise, wanting to get Edna to do it but deciding against it because she's busy or it'd draw too much attention. Another easy fix would be to have one of them call her "aunt Edna" to show that they know her

[@realistic_delinquent]

Bob was at Edna’s house to get the blue suit fixed before she started designing the new suits. Seeing as Bob is a dedicated family man with pride in his and his family’s powers, it would be weird if he DIDN’T bring up the kids when he went to visit Edna.

[@joelochoa2340]

The real nitpick/plothole is how did she know the kid's exact measurements. They are constantly growing and I doubt most parent can off the cuff tell you the exact waist/chest/wrist/ankle/thigh/neck/height measurements for their still growing kids. So you have to assume she did some research to get that info since she had not seen them in person for years (or at the very least a while) before making the suits. The powers make sense, Bob probably commented on them in passing, but the fitting would have been impossible to get as perfectly as she did without them visiting her and getting meticulously measured.

[@eyflfla]

@@joelochoa2340 The suits look pretty spandexy and form fitting to me.

[@TabbyVee]

​@@eyflfla that is true, but the mannequins she used were the exact sizes of the kids

[@averyeml]

You know the other issue with the “if the good guy didn’t make mistakes there wouldn’t be a story” argument? It’s assuming that the bad guy in the situation isn’t also capable of similar tact and would do whatever they did in the “flawed” version regardless, being easy for our now perfect protagonist to defeat in minutes. If our hero is a brilliant thinker, it stands to reason our bad guy could be too and would… just make different decisions based on the different actions of the hero.

[@CyberChrist]

The problem is... writers can't write characters more intelligent than themselves.

[@rjofusetsudzin8011]

@@CyberChrist This hits too hard for so many examples.

[@esmeecampbell7396]

I think we've got too lost with this example. At the most basic level if the hero makes no mistakes, it is a very short story. Because either they easily defeat the villain with no issue. Boring. Or they lose despite making no mistakes and never could have won. Mildly less boring, but not exactly compelling. Neither of these sound like great stories to me. "The bad guy has to make a mistake" could be seen as the exact opposite, but surely is the same issue. If the hero only wins because the bad guy fucks up then the victory doesn't feel earned, and if the bad guy doesn't fuck up and STILL loses then the hero also can't make a mistake otherwise the bad guy looks pathetically incompetent. Oversimplification is bad for analysis though, let's get specific. I'm really interested because I feel like I disagree with the thrust of your point, and I also feel like I don't fully understand it. So please give men an example of a story that you consider to be bad because the good guy makes a mistake. Then an example of a story that is good where they don't. Then possibly also the same thing for bad guys. Essentially explain your point with details and examples because you might be on to something, but in current form your point is lacking in evidence for me to be able to compare it to other films.

[@CyberChrist]

@@esmeecampbell7396 There are mistakes, and there are mistakes so unbelievably stupid they break immersion immediately because you feel the character is about to say "It's got ELECTROLYTES!"... A film going bad because the protagonists make mistakes? Have you even SEEN Prometheus ? As for a good story where the protagonist DOESN'T make (unbelievably stupid) mistakes, I'd go for the Musashi series (by NHK, 2003-2004). Yes, it goes on for something like 30 HOURS. If you want something shorter, how about Spike Lee's X? Or The World's Fastest Indian? Or Sherlock Holmes: A Game Of Shadows, if you're not into bios...

[@esmeecampbell7396]

@@CyberChrist No I haven't seen Prometheus, I have seen X. My point is more that's there's way more to it than "this option good" it is more about how it is written, you can have any characters make mistakes or not, it just depends on the writing around other elements.

[@GreayWorks]

It’s funny how Jays hour long videos can be considered her medium length of video essay

[@Equalsundew]

Her? What did I miss I haven't seen this channel in ages

[@bender5271]

Its short by Mewbler standards

[@threeofakind9933]

Long (Wo-)Men good?

[@bigdickrandy9289]

@@bzymek7054 well yeah but that dosent mean anything

[@bigdickrandy9289]

@@Equalsundew i googled it Jay Excies pronouns are he/she/they

[@babymillennial2785]

I just wanna point out a little thing about Patrick's defense of the Triwizard cup being the portkey that I feel is overlooked: spectacle. If they'd portkeyed any old object and sent Harry before then there wouldn't be any public presence to Voldemort's return, and given that Barty Crouch Jr is shown to be a very flashy Death Eater who revels in the fear and pain his master causes, you can fully picture him opting for one of the most public, most horrifying venues possible so the word of his Dark Lord's return can spread like wildfire. Choosing the Triwizard Cup has some obvious and attractive benefits: 1) If things pan out as they did in the film, the Boy Who Lived returns to the starting point hysterical about the return of Voldemort (and, thanks to his own willingness to share victory, a dead body) and the event is reported on far and wide as a disaster 2) If Voldemort is resurrected and succeeds in killing Harry, he can take the Portkey back with Harry's body in tow and a horrified crowd of witnesses can report that they saw the Dark Lord's return with their own eyes. 3) If Voldemort is resurrected and succeeds in killing Harry, he can leave the graveyard and at the starting point the crowd's excitement will start to wane rapidly as the time marches forward and no winner teleports back to the start. As time passes and they learn more there's a horror that starts to manifest, a student--a child in the care of Hogwarts has *disappeared* from school grounds in the middle of a massive public event, his body is found days or months later in a dark cemetery near campus with evidence of some dark ritual performed on him. Worse yet, this boy is Harry Potter, a 14 year old child who was never meant to compete in the tournament and is famous for, yanno, surviving a death curse by the Dark Lord. Rumors and speculations would mount as wizards speculate about the Dark Lord returning, or something worse, and all that because the Portkey that led Harry to Voldemort was staged in a very public venue. The Triwizard Cup is a win-win-win for possible outcomes as a Portkey, it's an extremely logical choice to create full spectacle and Barty Crouch Jr accounts for the biggest exploit to it (the fact that someone else could win and render the scheme worthless) by casting Imperio on one of the strongest contenders and using him to take out the competition. Patrick saying it "doesn't matter" is stupid both because it's anti-critical analysis and because there are significantly better defenses of this specific plot point. And I say that as someone that doesn't even like The Goblet of Fire that much

[@rooty]

Usually that would be true of Voldemort. For example, his horcruxes would have been impossible to identify and track down if he'd used random bits of trash to store the fragments of his soul, but his colossal ego prevented him from doing that. Instead, he used highly prestigious historical artefacts and hid them in meaningful places linked to his personal history as well as wizarding history. It made them easily traceable and was his ultimate undoing. HOWEVER, his plot in Goblet of Fire was very different. It was supposed to be entirely secret. There's a whole scene in the book where dumbledore happily tells Harry that he has put a huge hole in voldemort's scheme by surviving the encounter and returning to tell everyone about his resurrection. Voldemort wanted to return in secret so he could re-establish his influence without interference. So it's still a plot hole that he didn't capture harry more surreptitiously.

[@blackosprey2219]

Basically Voldy and all his followers are incredibly conceited show-offs who think they're so smart and strong that they're invincible. Considering the behavior of narcissistic criminals irl, this kind of grandiose stupidity is actually kind of believable.

[@babymillennial2785]

@@rooty ngl I completely forgot about that detail and I'm kinda mad about it only because the whole thing clicks into place perfectly if you just keep Voldemort in character with his ego and have him use Barty Crouch Jr to make his entrance as absurd and flashy as possible since he should know what sort of follower Barty is. But I guess JKR couldn't help herself again...

[@pastelsunset]

Patrick holds a faulty opinion on media that I see pretty often, which is that the level to which he can personally suspend his disbelief and excuse logical flaws is the objective universal level that's required to enjoy a story, and anyone who can't match it is being unfair and asking for too much. The whole "why couldn't Wonder Woman have killed Doomsday" thing is a key example: he can personally overlook that and, as a result, thinks that anyone who _can't_ is being unreasonable

[@ShadowMewto]

Buddy you also just pointed out the problem with people like Jay and Madvocate

[@pastelsunset]

@@ShadowMewto Haven’t seen Madvocate so I definitely can’t comment on him, but at least as far as I can think about Jay, she mostly comments on ACTUAL objective problems such as plot holes, contradictions in writing and things that detract from the intention of the media - all the scientific inaccuracies in Another Life, for example. I can’t think of any examples where she presented a subjective dislike as an objective flaw.

[@ShadowMewto]

@@pastelsunset all I mean is that a lot of the efap and friends group have absolutely no ability to suspend their disbelief and thus are unable to accept that something can still be good and have plot holes. They view movies based purely on how much it how little they can criticize the details of the script, and when they dislike something but can’t find obvious plot issues, they make up stuff that doesn’t actually make sense in order to justify to themselves why they dislike the thing. At least, that’s just what I’ve noticed. That’s why I think some of Jays videos are really good (the stuff about bad cartoons and such) because their writing fails on such a basic level that people who have any competent understanding of media criticism can obliterate it. It’s also why I think some videos (like this one) are extremely easy to criticize themselves. (And you probably have seen a Madvocate video before and just didn’t know it, he’s the guy who made all of those videos talking about why the flash show is stupid)

[@caseywensnahan3543]

@@ShadowMewto can you provide some examples of them making stuff up because while I haven't watched their stuff in a while I don't generally remember them making things up to be mad about.

[@ShadowMewto]

@@caseywensnahan3543 sure. Pretty much any time Madvocate tries to talk about science, for example, he gets something wrong or criticizes the scene when it makes sense. Like in his most recent flash video, Madvocate claims that a stretchy arms character couldn’t make a helicopter move downwards by grabbing and pulling on it. The helicopter is moving upwards extremely slowly. Obviously, in order to stop the helicopter, he just needs to exert enough downwards force to counteract the amount it’s moving upwards. The upwards force the blades are generating are is barley enough to move the helicopter upwards, let alone with downwards force being placed on it. As for Jay, the incredibles thing at the start of this video is a decent example, but I’d have to rewatch some of jays content to find something more specific.

[@potentialPizza8]

Oh my god THANK YOU for this video. This feels like the single dose of sanity in a world that can only go "lol plot hole bad movie" or backlash with "plot holes don't matter!" This is actual common sense and critical thinking about how stories are made up and what we can enjoy about them. I've had my fair share of annoyances with people who, in backlash to cinemasins, start saying plot holes don't matter at all, which is just such a blatantly silly take on the face of it that it feels extremely validating to watch this video. Fantastic work!

[@Shenaldrac]

Which is weird because Cinemasins doesn't talk about plot holes, they're nit pics, and most of them are just outright lies anyway. No one should watch their stuff tbh.

[@eidolon1426]

​@Shenaldrac A "nitpick" and a "plothole" are not mutually exclusive, and a "nitpick" would still classify as "a *valid* criticism" in some form or another, so it's not generally fair to say that CinemaSins "talks about nitpicks." It's... *sort of* true, in a way. They are *TRYING* to talk about flaws of any kind they can think of... *sometimes...* But mostly, they are either invalid *attempts* at some kind of criticism, be it "plothole" or other, and the rest of the runtime is filled with blatant lies where they aren't even trying to talk about *valid* criticisms, or half-assed jokes, which allegedly aren't intended to be considered *actual* attempts at criticism either... Basically, they suck, and saying that they deal with "nitpicks" is giving them significantly more credit than they've earned. I don't actually disagree with the general premise you were shooting for though. I'm just adding to the topic of conversation.

[@Shenaldrac]

@@eidolon1426 Yeah that's fair. I put in less brainpower than I could have. The fact that they just make shit up is so.... awful. Like their big defense against criticism is that it's "not meant to be critique of films, it's satire of people who nitpick films!" but like... people who nitpick films (and admittedly I'm guilty of that, I'm not very fun to watch movies with) don't just make things up! They're shit. They're shit and also their claims that it's not real criticism are bunk, since their "actual" videos they do where they are talking about films they see contain the _same critiques that their normal videos do!_ I'm sure you're aware of all this, but hey. I enjoy an opportunity to bitch about how awful CinemaSins are.

[@theodorepinnock1517]

Another thing about Abed's story in the Community episode - Abed is heavily implied throughout the series to have autism, as a result of which he struggles to understand human irrationality. Becuase Abed thinks in a very literal and logical fashion, he struggles to understand that people often make illogical decisions for reasons which are very logical in the context of that person and their personality traits, flaws, and perspective. His story is emblematic of this, with his characters acting in an inhumanly rational way because he fails to account for the very logical and reasonable ways in which people act irrationally.

[@nenmaster5218]

Plot Hole Rabbit Hole kzbin.info?search_query=Multiverse+of+Madness%3A+An+Unbridled+Cataclysm+ kzbin.info/www/bejne/bnOslHSQrauZqMU kzbin.info/www/bejne/gKDTg2CYnrFjf5Y

[@narratormusic7749]

That's not really a good understanding of autism though, autistic people aren't less irrational we are irrational in different ways so understanding the reasoning for neurotypical illogicalness is harder because we haven't experienced it ourselves

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

TBF, Abed's story would work better, if all the exposition wasn't front loaded in a single scene and was intead weaved in seemlessly. Obviously he couldn't do this because the whole thing had to be a single scene of ~40 seconds. Audiences can put certian things out of mind. We can enjoy a wizard duel without first learning the entire magic system but it does help to have some context of what spells are available.

[@Alexis-tx5en]

That’s interesting, I always felt that the people around Abed felt he acts inhumanly rational and without emotion, when that wasn’t the reality.

[@samt3412]

​@narratormusic7749 it's not true for every single autist, but the general social disconnect that permeates the autistic experience simply manifests in that way for Abed. At least, that's how I view it.

[@Soberhamster11001100]

I could never wrap my head around how Patrick could straight-facedly say that "movies aren't about logic." Movies aren't all the same. Different stories have different priorities, because they're made by different teams of people.

[@cigaretteparfum]

even the same team would still make a different movie when it's for a different circumstances, like doing other genres or utilising other tropes. but iirc in that video man also had this "logic is boring bc it's always the same/leads to the same outcome" sentiment (idk if it's also touched on the exci's video am still on the intro lol) so if you think about it, him not thinking the way you and i do wrt movies' ability to be about more than one thing, that seems to track with his train of thought. like i can't properly put it into words, but if he thinks A will always lead to B, i think to him it makes sense then that if you don't want B, then you just shouldn't do A. does that makes sense??? sorry my communication stats seem to be at a -100 atm. ^^;

[@MCXL1140]

I think the point that you're missing is that he's right. Movies aren't about logic. Some movies might be about logic, other movies or not. The approach to storytelling differs between different films and filmmakers. By definition that means that movies aren't about that thing that is a part of some movies and isn't a part of others.

[@marreco6347]

​​@@cigaretteparfum yes, Patrick seems to think there is such a thing as objective, universal clear logic that everyone could reach if they only did what they thought was logical. He might have a stroke if he ever witnesses people talking about politics, economics, philosophy, religion, or really just people debating how to share a bar tab.

[@smacksaw]

I could never wrap my head around how Patrick anything

[@killergoose7643]

He's a defender of the star wars sequels so I'm sure these are copes he's had to tell himself many times before

[@KYCDK]

I love how one of his main arguments is "well if they did what the plot hole suggests, then the plot wouldn't happen" yes, THATS THE FUCKING PROBLEM if there is a major plot hole that the audience can notice, that also makes it so the plot couldn't happen without it, then it is the worst type of plot hole and comes from laziness

[@michaelwoods2672]

Well, I'd say probably comes from time pressure to get the plot finished, unforeseen pressure pushing it in another direction and lack of technical ability, not laziness, in most cases but otherwise absolutely agree.

[@CyberChrist]

@@michaelwoods2672 If the audience can solve the problem in the blink of an eye and devise a better plot, you bet it's, in fact, hiring cheaper and stupid writers because the average moviegoer won't notice, right?

[@michaelwoods2672]

@@CyberChrist The audience isn't operating under the same constraints. They don't even have to write their suggestions into a compelling script, let alone shoot new scenes or reedit things. Seriously, go ahead and try writing a short story yourself - you'll be surprised how quickly plot can holes open up and how closing them down can lead to other issues with the plot, pacing, tension, ect. Many of these issues can be fixed very quickly over a bag of popcorn by random moviegoers, true, but how many of those people have actually written anything? I'm sure many writers are lazy and complacent, but writing stories - like almost anything else - is much easier to do in theory then in practice and most importantly I am becoming ever more certain that being able to write well and being able to write to a professionally viable schedule are completely different skills that only a few posses both of.

[@CyberChrist]

@@michaelwoods2672 I've already written a 100+ page book, mind you... a far too logical one, I guess, because it's non-fiction. But there were plenty of things to check regarding sources and narration continuity, and while no one was paying me for it at the time, I still worked out all the kinks my readers and I found nonetheless, because I actually respect my craft, my readers and _myself_. When it happens for a movie, it's called pre-production (ever heard the word?), and you don't have to reshoot or re-edit when you haven't been stupid enough to shoot an obviously broken script. Oh, did I mention I handwrote the first draft in a week? With the slowest Internet I EVER exprienced for research? (yes, worse than 56k) While I was managing a hotel? In one of Africa's most isolated countries? With 8 hours of electricity per day? During a MOTHERLOVING CIVIL WAR ? Feel free not to believe me and go shill your excuses somewhere else. They didn't do their jobs, and deserve to get tarred and feathered out of the profession, plain and simple. It is because of people like you that mediocrity runs rampant, turning the world into Idiocracy, and the worst thing is, you'll never acknowledge you're part of the problem, not the solution.

[@michaelwoods2672]

@@CyberChrist "Shill my excuses" Mate, calm the hell down 🤣 I'm not even defending crappy writing just explaining why it happens. Take your experience with writing non-fiction and try writing some fiction and you'll see (if you are any good at fiction) that plot holes open up and you have to deal with them. Imagine this is all happening with hard deadlines out of your control and it's easy to see how things slip through the cracks.

[@swagromancer]

When your story implodes as soon as you pave over plot holes, that doesn't mean the plot holes _need_ to exist to facilitate the story. It just means you have to come up with a better story. I already know that I will re-watch this video every other month for years to come. As an avid Star Trek enjoyer and one of those people who care deeply about the intricacies of Starfleet uniforms and who knows exactly how crystallised dilithium is used to control the energy flow of a matter/antimatter reaction, I felt seen, so thank you. And thank you for showing Data some love. He was such an inspirational character for me when I grew up, and I only started to realise why after having been diagnosed with autism as an adult.

[@nbonasoro]

If the waterfall is a plot hole in the quiet place, isnt it also a plot hole that all governments didnt just have air raid sirens, emergency alert systems and every other source of noise blaring constantly?

[@elevate07]

It's also a plot that the aliens are vulnerable to a shotgun that can be found in a shed but they were able to take over the entire planet while we were loaded to the ears with far more powerful weapons.

[@BWMagus]

Yes, the movie's entire premise is a gigantic plothole.

[@Khanmanlol]

@@elevate07 I think it would have been better if the aliens only took over a small, rural area that no one has heard of.

[@logemcdoge4620]

​@@elevate07well I think the idea is that it's only vunerable after opening it's head up

[@covereye5731]

Whenever Plothole threatens a story, their children Theory Crafting and Headcanons always jump in to save the day.

[@honestkyn718]

See I don't think either or bad in and of themselves. Like the minor plot holes in the Incredibles for example could do that. For sequel trilogy stuff you need it to do anything and that's just giving other people your job

[@tanner4280]

A nice zinger, but an immediate example that comes to mind is all of A Song of Ice and Fire. Many times, getting the audience to think isn’t a sign of bad writing

[@zephyr8072]

And when plot holes and bad writing entirely incinerate the story ala Mass Effect 3 or the Star Wars sequel trilogy, their red-headed stepchild Inventing the Narrative comes into play. That's where you not only headcanon, but superimpose it over the actual story and viciously argue down anyone who doesn't invest in your personal delusion.

[@theomegajuice8660]

This is part of why I shy away from a lot of the plot hole discourse. A lot of the time if feels like the people harping on plot holes think that imagination, subtlety, theme, symbolism and suggestion are inherently "bad writing" while info-dumps, telling-not-showing and aggressive literalism are objectively good.

[@KaNoMikoProductions]

The Batman defense is like if Luke and Obi-wan decided to rescue Leia, and in the next shot they're already on the Empire spaceship.

[@SolarDragon007]

It would be like if they immediately cut to Frodo and Sam being in Mordor right after they initially leave the Shire.

[@arcats9004]

That honestly would be funny gag in a comedy

[@fulldisclosureiamamonster2786]

"The Batman defence" reminds me of a certain courtroom tactic by defence attorneys...

[@DrMcFly28]

"Some plot holes are nitpicks therefore all plot holes don't matter."

[@moseyofficial5955]

"This works for them because their core audience is made up mostly of the kind of people who would... watch cinema sins." What a line.

[@ShadowMewto]

Spoiler alert for Jay, so is his audience

[@StardustCorvid]

​@@ShadowMewto Huh?

[@ShadowMewto]

@@StardustCorvid Jay and CinemSins both make movie-centric video essays that are poorly researched and constructed, make incorrect assumptions about movies, and critsize them by nitpicking minute details with no real importance or relevance. In addition to them having the same style of content, a lot of Jay's popularity came from making videos parodying CinemaSins by making CInemaSins videos about CInemaSins . SIDE TANGENT; feel free to ignore this part I just felt like writing it. (which is a crazy and hypocritical thing to do btw. Reminds me of the people who defend Cuties because it's a satire on child sexualization, which it does by sexualizing children. Obviously that is nowhere near as bad as anything Jay has said or done, Jay seems like a genuinley good person, but it's similair in that it is "satirical" about an issue by just doing the thing you took issue with.) The main target audience for people who would watch a video making fun of CinemaSins by just making a CinemaSIns video is. unsuprisingly, people who have watched CinemaSins. Jay's core audience is literally people who watch videos about CInemaSins, which to me is worse than people who watch CinemaSins.

[@StardustCorvid]

@@ShadowMewto Oh good gods one of these. Yeah I'm not engaging further

[@ShadowMewto]

@@StardustCorvid A person who doesn't like EFAP? I'm not sure I understans what you mean by that. Or a person who writes super long comments, because let me tell you that's just everyone who watches Jay buddy.

[@RocketTheMinifig]

I’m about three minutes in and can already tell this is the equivilant of “Thinking of a better comeback as you let the shower water just fall over you unmoving” and im so here for it letsgooo

[@mousetvalerie]

god I really appreciate how you opened the video by discussing The Incredibles and ended it with the Enormous Clock metaphor from the same film. just tiny bits of script-writing that don't go unnoticed. excellent work

[@synthiandrakon]

With the 'a quiet place' waterfall thing, I think what makes this plothole so frustrating is that it is acknowledged in the movie that they know they can make noise by the waterfall, even if they don't live there surely they would idk spend a lot of time there so they could talk to eachother, maybe play monopoly with the real pieces

[@Harrier42861]

You could even have the driving conflict of the movie be something like the waterfall drying out and the characters having to find a new haven.

[@mertarican5456]

Writer just wanted an emotional scene there and they were done with it afterwards 😢

[@TheRealGSmith]

I just assumend that they didn't wanna leave their house, that there isn't much food near the waterfall (except for fish) and that the moisture would be unbearable after a while. But yes, it's kinda strange to have the waterfall in the movie.

[@jacksyoutubechannel4045]

I don't understand how, in the year since the world fell apart, they were supposed to figure out how to silently locate and transport all the materials necessary for building a house, learn how to build a house, figure out how to run electricity, plumbing, etc., silently move their belongings (including large things, like their fridge), and all while (much of the time) one of the two adults who has to build this structure for a family of soon-to-be six is pregnant. They would have to _fell trees_ to build a house there. I can imagine, some years down the road, planning and researching so that houses for their children in adulthood could be constructed at the waterfall, but in the first few years, fortifying and sound-dampening at the existing house that has utilities is definitely the more realistic option.

[@joeyjojojrshabadoo7462]

I think the walfall is probably the most clear cut example of a legitimate plothole. The characters have a solution to their conflict which they're fully adware and have no reason (not even irrational) not to use. But just don't. Because the movie needs to happen. It's like giving Tom Hanks in castaway a perfectly functional life boat and he still needs to build a raft.

[@CraftingMenace]

I really like your point about how a logical character Die Hard would still slap. Stories about two intellectual titans clashing are fucking awesome. Making moves that make no sense to anyone except to the two people making them because they're 10 steps ahead of everyone else can lead to amazing stories.

[@fahimazannattarfi1545]

i really like that concept. do you have any recommendations for that type of story? any media will do.

[@CraftingMenace]

@@fahimazannattarfi1545 Well the first two things that come to mind are Death Note and Code Geass the anime, though if you want my opinion the best way to experience the story of death note is actually the musical. It's legitimately amazing.

[@samt3412]

​@@CraftingMenaceTIL there is apparently a Death Note musical that is apparently extremely unlike the Netflix version insofar that it is good

[@notapplicable6985]

​@@fahimazannattarfi1545 Not quite intellectual titans, but the Dio vs JoJo fight is a good example of this. Since Dio has the ability to stop time, but JoJo has shown he might be able to move in stopped time. So Dio tries to call his bluff by getting close and messing with him

[@Volthoom]

The problem with those stories is that it's genuinely hard to write characters that are much more intelligent than the writer.

[@alexanderpovey1973]

If jay married famous Chinese actress Zhang Ting that would be ExciTing.

[@jamescallanan2443]

Seeing Jay take a shot at Cinemasins again makes me feel nostalgic

[@franklindapuss7990]

Mhm indeed

[@navyadmiralkizaru8137]

the death star one really bites my ass, its reasonable to assume that the death star's engines and inner workings generate a lot of heat and needs to be expelled to cool it off, having an exhaust port to connect to the engine makes sense especially when you factor in how over confident the empire was and how comparatively small the rebellion was

[@thelordstarfish]

Citing the Death Star as an "actually kinda valid" criticism and not a "thing that is actually explained in the movie" is certainly a take. Because it's *literally explained in the movie.* Yeah, an exhaust port is kind of a thing a gigantic highly complex machine would need to not... explode... and then beyond that, the briefing scene establishes that the weakness is extremely tiny, requiring a basically impossible shot to pull off, that the port *is shielded from lasers* meaning the Empire did in fact account for it, and then that one rebel says that the shot they need to do is "impossible, even for a computer"... And here's the thing: That rebel? By all accounts he's right. Luke only manages to pull it off by relying on the Force. Basically *divine interference* by the lore of the movie. He *claims* the shot is doable because he hit similarly small targets in motion back home, but both he and another rebel pilot try to snipe the exhaust port relying on the targeting computer and... they fail. Luke only succeeds when he turns the computer off and relies on space magic that only he and nobody else has access to. So... yeah, the Death Star made perfect sense as it was.

[@DeadYorick]

When Picard is proposing destroying the Enterprise rather than submit to Nagilum, he's trying to prove a point to the entity. The entity keeps ordering them around and telling them to submit to half of his crew being randomly executed. He is indicating to the entity that they won't do what he tells them to. At the end of the episode after they're clear of the entity they speculate that he was bluffing. That's how I always interpreted the episode that Picard somewhat astutely knew that the entity was curious about them and just wanted to see how they reacted so when they didn't play along with his game it let them go. I think Picard always knew this was going to happen and had to remain resolute to avoid giving it away to the entity. Sure was what he did risky? Yes but it makes for great television.

[@LordOfTheFatties]

This is a very good interpretation, and I agree with you. Picard's behavior was not silly or strange, even if he was being sincere out of frustration.

[@darwinxavier3516]

@@LordOfTheFatties Janeway had a similar moment when aliens were experimenting on the crew. She decided that is was preferable to possibly kill everyone to get rid of the invaders rather than let them have their way. In the end, the ship and crew were fine, and half the invaders got disintegrated as they fled.

[@NarcissistAU]

I was really hoping Mr Birchum might trigger a return. Feeling the lack blud, hope you're thriving somewhere. 🖖

[@qhu3878]

you never know, a 2 hour birchum video could be on the way

[@NarcissistAU]

I would actually punch the air in victory. "Character time is over! Time for plot! Yeeeeeeeeeaaaahhh!"

[@DocBoffin]

Just rewatched the incredibles. Edna seems like she knew supers where disappearing. She probably had other clients come in for repairs and go missing. Hence the tracker.

[@justaghostinthesea]

That's pretty good! I think it's funnier if she just has no respect for privacy

[@Zalethon]

Your poem about plot holes with the internal rhyme between ridiculous and can stick with us made it all worth it. Bravo

[@Keatosis_Quohotos]

Eagerly waiting for the next Jay Exci video.

[@RealistChair]

We all are... we all are

[@Scotthulahoopcawthon]

Like that’s ever going to happen

[@injetavel279]

Do you know why he stopped with the channel?

[@Scotthulahoopcawthon]

@@injetavel279 he took a mental health break 8 months ago

[@RealistChair]

@@injetavel279 mental health things I think

[@GuardianSpirits13]

Wasn't expecting to watch an nour long video debunking another video I've never seen discussing pieces of media I know little to nothing about, but here I am. You're a great storyteller!

[@deathbysloth]

I don't understand why Tolkien even bothered to write Frodo's journey into the story. He should just start at the Shire and the next time we see him, he's at Mount Doom. Audiences don't need to be told everything, we'll just *assume* he had an epic journey, off-screen.

[@RogueAstro85]

Jay's back! Now I have another video in my playlist that I can re-watch until I forget about the existential horrors of the future 😊

[@CoolJoshido212]

same here

[@RealCoolstriker64]

To me: the thing I hate most about this story is that Patrick seems to think that bad things can ONLY happen if people are stupid. Like, he doesn’t even mention the possibility that even if you do everything right: BAD THINGS CAN STILL HAPPEN. I could do everything possible to keep myself healthy and safe, do all of that PERFECTLY, and still get struck by lightning and die instantly. All the logic in the world couldn’t prevent me from accidentally being in a place that’s about to catch on fire or release a zombie virus. Sometimes doing everything right just isn’t enough to get a happy ending, in real life and in fiction. Some of the most tragic moments in fiction for me are ones where there was no other way out. Where the characters did everything they could and did all of it right but still couldn’t escape their fate. And Patrick just acts like this *isn’t possible.* That the only possible way for conflict and drama are when people are needlessly stupid for the plot, and that if characters are completely rational it is completely impossible for anything bad to happen.

[@billjacobs521]

Plus, two people could both be rational and logical, but in conflict.

[@drake_diangelo]

I'm currently in a Writing an Rhetoric class on the philosophy of Eurasian argumentation, and your discussion on logic vs emotion in humans is something we covered a lot. I can't remember the source we discussed, but logic and emotion are not opposites and are not exclusive. Sometimes they can be at odds, such as when I have a panic attack after talking on the phone, but often they work together, such as how if someone was falling off a cliff you would immediately help them but also do it in a way that's safest and has the highest likelyhood of success. Pure logic would be to not put yourself in danger, and pure emotion would mean you put no thought in and will probably also fall off the cliff. These arguments drive me crazy

[@BWMagus]

Right. That's why Spock always bothered me as a character--the whole "never be emotional" thing is ridiculous because why do anything, then? Why eat if not to satisfy the emotion of desiring food or end the discomfort caused by hunger? Why live at all if not for an emotional attachment to life? Why read one book over another if not for an emotional interest in one over another? It's virtually impossible to be one or the other for any length of time.

[@iurigrang]

“pure logic would be to not put yourself in danger” wat? Logic has to do with accessing the consequences of actions, not with what you prioritize. Being selfish isn’t being logical, it’s paying more attention to the emotions that bring you to care about your well being (the pursuit of happiness, achievement, and distaste of suffering are all based on emotions after all) than the emotions that bring you to care about other human beings (aka empathy), but both being selfish and selfless are emotionally based decisions. When they are at odds, it’s not that emotions guide you to a course of action, and logic to another, as logic cannot guide you to a course of action, since priorities can’t be inferred from logic alone. It’s that emotions create both raw impulses, when not processed through logic, and can create reasonable courses of actions when processed through logic, so it isn’t much of a emotion vs logic thing, and a lot more of a impulse vs logic thing, both of them being informed by emotions.

[@drake_diangelo]

@@iurigrang I meant logic in the way these people define logic, as if making "logical" decisions is the opposite of emotional, as in being more influenced by fact over feeling. It doesn't add anything to the conversation to start arguing about a definition of logic these people aren't even talking about. My argument is simply that making "smart" decisions completely separate from emotion, which is what these people think logic is, isn't possible using their own definitions. I completely agree with what you're saying though

[@TF2CrunchyFrog]

@@iurigrang what many people - including the script writers of shows like StarTrek: Enterprise - seemed to miss was, TOS and TNG established that Vulcans are not merely trained to act _logically_ and CONTROL the emotions they have instead of being controlled by them, they also have a culture that places great importance on ETHICS. Those writers who mistakenly think "Vulcans have no emotions, they only act coldly logical like robots" completely missed the point and tend to write Vulcans as absolute amoral a-holes or arrogant jerks who look down on "emotional races". Which they should not be. That's the difference between Romulans and Vulcans. A villain can be a psychopath but still make 100% logical decisions: "I want what that guy has. He refuses to give it to me. The most effficient way to force him to give it to me is to kill him". The show _Andromeda_ had an episode about the planet where the populace had, after long struggles and civils wars that had devastated the planet, decided to leave the governing to artificial intelligences. Unfortunately, artificial intelligences programmed with Utilitarianism rather than Asimov's Three Rules. Problem posed was: A planetwide famine threatened to wipe out the entire population. Harvests had been destroyed by war, and new planting and growing and harvesting would not happen quickly enough to save them. Spaceships were all destroyed. So, if food supplies and population don't match, the cold equations mean the population has to be culled to save at least a percentage of them. So the A.I.s did the math and started euthanazing people, starting with those who wouldn't be able to help in the rebuilding effort, like the old, sick or babies. Instead of having desperate people try to spread the available food too thin to save everyone thereby having everyone starve, or the alternative, see people start killing each other over food. The A.I.s reckoned that if they bore the ethical blame that was preferable.

[@thecatatonicz6]

There is a Spider-Man comic abt this but I forgot the name

[@Octobris]

Edna is the type of person who'd keep tabs on her clients just in case there was a potential for her to work on something new.

[@samwallaceart288]

When an eccentric aunt casually keeps tabs on someone's kids exact body size, it's funny. But when an _uncle_ does it

[@Octobris]

@@samwallaceart288 s t a p h (also, my comment wasn't about that at all, just fyi.)

[@Moonwizard420]

I clicked on this video thinking it would be some sort of plot hole iceberg sort of thing. Instead, I was subjected to Patrick's video. I wish to go back to when I was unaware of his existence.

[@reginaldfromnigeria4116]

At this point i think ive spent more time watching jay talk about another life than if i just watched another life

[@Diego-zz1df]

Don't watch Another Life. It's even worse than Jay says. The series not making any sense is not even the main problem, the main problem is that it's fucking boring.

[@AlbertFingernoodle959]

One of the most well loved anime of all time (Death Note) is based on two characters always thinking their actions through heavily and making (with the knowledge they have) the most logical decision at any time and that's why people like it so much

[@kingragnarok7302]

Except for all the times Light does someting stupid because someone hurt his fragile ego.

[@Omicron716]

I like it because Light and L are gay.

[@strangeclaims]

​@@Omicron716 based

[@joeiechristiansantana9641]

@@strangeclaims Yeah, Yagami backwards and all that.

[@thereccher8746]

Patrick's excuse is frustrating because most people can discern from a human mistake that stems from their character flaw and the artificial result of lazy writing. When someone in a well written horror movie makes a mistake, it makes emotional sense coming from them even if you know it's going to put them in danger. Bad decisions have to be rationalized in some way for it work in the story.

[@MamadNobari]

He's just mad and coping about people not liking his beloved Last Jedi.

[@slaapt]

The waterfall "mistake" would mean they made the same mistake day after day, year after year. Everytime they lament not being able to make noise at home.

[@fabiangamboa1714]

1:00:00 The funny thing is, "data takes on Hans Gruber" the appeal of that concept is part of why the John Wick franchise really works.

[@TheYoxiz]

I was really hoping you'd use the first season of Stranger Things as an example. All of the characters consistently make the best possible decision they can make with the info they're given, which creates an incredibly rewarding show to watch, because you're not screaming at your screen asking the characters to act a certain way. Like you said in the video, logic and conflict aren't mutually exclusive. If anything, characters acting logically given their personality and the info they have leads the story into unique, unexpected places, which is... good storytelling.

[@katiequeen7225]

Whenever i read "first season of stranger things" i can only think about how they used dnd rules and characters that literally didn't exist at the point in time the show is set

[@TheYoxiz]

@@katiequeen7225 Fair, I personally wouldn't believe it's as big of an issue as long as it doesn't disrupt the consistency of the plot. I would just assume the show is happening in a world where those rules *did* exist at that point in time, and bam! My suspension of disbelief is intact. I can see how some DnD fans might have a harder time seeing past it, though.

[@thesamfish6728]

One of the reasons I thought season 4 was much worse than the first two seasons is that instead of characters acting consistently logically and making reasonable decisions based on what information they have, like how it happened in season 1, season 4 felt more like they were making reaching random conclusions that happened to be correct because the story needed to progress. Season 1 was such a great example of characters reaching their conclusions due to a natural display of logic, season 4 was characters having insane problem-solving skills so that they can always make the right decisions at the right time.

[@k.r.jester5406]

My pet peeve is when plot holes waste my time. I dont want to have a plan slowly revealed, only for it to become blatantly obvious that the plan was bonkers, yet the writers and the universe at large treats it like an awesome plan. Looking at you Return of the Jedi.

[@thecodfather6280]

Do you mean the last Jedi?

[@k.r.jester5406]

@@thecodfather6280 Lmao, last jedi also works. No, i mean lukes plan to rescue han in RotJ

[@thecodfather6280]

@@k.r.jester5406 That’s definitely fair, especially since the plan apparently involved putting Leia in that situation which is a definite WTF moment.

[@texteel]

for some reason I always asumed that leia cosplaying as a bounty hunter and offering chewie to gain entrance was separate from luke's plan. Luke sends in the droids, fully intent on retrieving them along with solo, leia starts doing her own thing with chewie, luke is forced to improvise and goes "well I might as well bargain for all of them"

[@stephensnyder5596]

How do you know how the writers and "universe" treat it?

[@concernedcitizen6313]

Regarding The Incredibles, it never bothered me that Edna seemed to know about Mr. Incredible's family since she'd been interested for years in restarting the program and supplying superheroes with suits. I guess I just figured that she'd kept tabs on the Incredibles, including learning about their children and their powers. In fact, given how quickly she was able to present Mrs. Incredible with those suits, I find it hard to believe that she _wasn't_ keeping tabs on them. If you notice, I've only used Edna's name here, and that's because it's been so long since I last watched the movie that I can't remember anyone else's name. So, I don't remember a lot of details. Maybe that's just head-canon? Either way, it works for me to the point that I don't consider it a plot-hole, at least not without seeing the movie again and judging for myself based on that.

[@TF2CrunchyFrog]

The movie established that Edna knew _all_ the supers. And that she had been friends with Bob and Helen for many years. Edna stated she was bored because she hadn't had the opportunity to design new super-suits for years ,ever since the Supers Act was passed, and she craved the challenge. It's entirely possible that this was in fact Edna's own superpower, a very suble one: intuitive analysis, knowing how to perfectly match a suit to someone's size and powers, even powers they didn't yet know they had. The movie also hinted that Edna, who had grown very rich from making suits for supers and celebrities alike, had lots of government contacts and possible... other contacts to rich and powerful people. So yes, Edna knowing a lot is no plothole. It's even logical to assume Edna knew about Syndrome, but knew him as an international weapons seller.

[@N3G4T3]

This is what instantly came to my head when watching it as a child. Never even remotely seemed like a plot hole.

[@leritykay8911]

Honestly, some plotholes are vague enough that an explanation can be assumed? Even in that Edna example, I never really thought of it as a plothole. Not by Mr. incredible visiting again. She's very rich, eccentric, and moreover she knows Mr. incredible's identity. I always figured she had no trouble looking up his history and looking through his personal life to make costumes for the fam

[@BWMagus]

Yes, it's hard to draw the exact line of what can be safely assumed and what can't be.

[@malchickoleander]

Yeah but she knew what Jack Jack's powers were when they didn't

[@Maric18]

@@malchickoleander the question with plotholes is are they part of the plot or are they just there. some animals can talk, edna knows an unreasonable amount about her clients, "no i cannot read your thoughts, i read your body" when the character answered an unspoken question and the other person asked mentally "can you read my thoughts?" or even stuff like the character calling in a few previously unestablished favors. some of it is lazy writing sure, but its always in context with the rest of the story. The batman thing of "he is without money and contacts, how will he get out of this pickle" and then he just does it offscreen is worse than how someone got into a flying fortress when they were invited and not shown to be taken there by a helicopter

[@insulttothehumanrace3807]

@@malchickoleander From the movie: Hellen (Elastigirl): "What do you think he's going to be doing?!" Edna: "I don't know, so I just thought it best to be prepared. Of course, I don't know what the boy's powers are, so--" Hellen: "Jack-jack doesn't have powers." Edna: "No? Oh well, it'll look great around the house." She didn't know either, it kind of ends up being comedic that she happened to make a suit that suited him well. And even then the suit is just general protection (heatproof, bulletproof, friction-resistant like Dash's), so that makes sense to give to a baby of a superhero family; there's still reasonable logic at play.