A Breakdown of CinemaSins: Everything Wrong With Avengers: Infinity War (Part One)

This is a part one!
Here are some links:
Original CinemaSins Video:
• Everything Wrong With ...
EFAP Stream: • EFAP #19 - RE: "Everyt...
Support me on Patreon: (if you want)
/ jayexci

[@TheHatwolf]

Thanos wiped out half of the existing life in the universe as a joke, Jay. You can't critize his genocide. It was clearly meant as a satire of real genocide. Duh.

[@optillian4182]

Fuck off troll.

[@monkekun3033]

It's just a prank bro

[@andrewphillips4681]

@@monkekun3033 no it was you DIO

[@bryanp9878]

Optillian r/wooosh

[@ChrisCrossCrunch]

@@optillian4182 r/wooosh

[@bigfatcarp93]

The Russo Brothers actually answered the question of why Thanos didn't do this sooner. Thanos knew that any time he made a run for the stones, the rest of the universe would figure out what he was up to and unite against him, so he waited until he knew where all six were before making his move. In the movie, they make a point that he only recently found out that Gamora knows the location of the Soul Stone, the last one that was unaccounted for.

[@karkatvantas9557]

Wasn't he also waiting for Odin to die?

[@bigfatcarp93]

That one's a fan theory. The "waiting for the locations" thing was actually SAID by the Russos in the DVD commentary.

[@austinleach1307]

And that makes a lot of sense, really. Even if he COULD have started sooner and still won, the easiest path was arguably the one he took, where he made sure he knew or had a way to know where all of them were before making his move, collecting the Stones as quickly as possible. I mean, it's not like he had any competition for the Stones, no one had ever shown any interest in more than one of them.

[@danielheflick1529]

Honestly, this seemed pretty obvious to me. Why else would he have been using underlings like he did in Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy? So that in case his plans failed (which they both did), attention wouldn't be drawn to him and his machinations. Wanting to know where all the Stones are so that he could strike fast and strike hard seems like the most obvious strategy to ensure his victory, and his patience wound up paying off in a big way.

[@1Metalshadow]

While it's just a fan theory, I do think it makes sense that this was also an ideal time for him with beings like Odin, Ego, and the Ancient One deceased.

[@steelbeans]

I want an MCU movie called "Dave" or something that just follows a normal dude throughout all of the mcu so far and shows the impact all this has on normies

[@yeahkeen2905]

The Manzilla Show I think that’d be better as a tv show.

[@steelbeans]

@@yeahkeen2905 you right

[@oceanman_8370]

I love it, but I have a suggestion. Make that normal dude Peter from Deadpool 2

[@Rose-wc2pe]

He's just really unlucky and manages to end up in every disaster.

[@steelbeans]

@@Rose-wc2pe His last name could be Murphy to allude to Murphys law

[@fordpines4661]

"What if Thanos died before this movie happened" *Endgame sweats nervously*

[@lProN00bl]

More of the point is that you'd think Thanos might be a little more concerned if the stones could be destroyed. And how the time stone could be used to bring back a stone..if he did not even know where it was destoryed is a bit much. Or if the time stone has no limits on how much time can be reversed.

[@MiloMurphysLaw]

Oh hey Ford, what have you been doing since Gravity Falls ended?

[@spencerhazen]

Lol I'm dead

[@DatMageDoe]

I'd break CinemaSins sins down into four categories, personally: 1. Genuine, legitimate criticism which is accurate and grounded. 2. Criticism which, while technically true, is exceedingly nitpicky/overly critical. Or "Non sins" 3. While criticism, it's either not honest due to using wrong/withholding important information, or is so asinine it's not actually genuine criticism. 4. An attempt at humor.

[@Ze_eT]

I would also break "An attempt an humor" into 1.-3. because he doesn't make his criticism more grounded in reality if it is an attempt at humor. Also 7., which will be just "Attempt at humor".

[@youngjellyfish8694]

Catherine Whittaker “attempt”is the key word here 😂

[@theomegajuice8660]

5. Padding to make the videos longer and optimise algorithm-based engagement. Usually these are vague questions or hypotheticals tangentially related to something on screen or just pointlessly describing what it is currently happening in the scenen and then ringing the dinger as if a point has been made

[@princekyle4132]

And you can’t tell which is which

[@bananaman1397]

6. a running joke

[@jonahbardwell551]

I've heard people theorize that the reason Thanos decides to hunt the stones when he does is because all the big players who could potentially stop him are gone. Odin's dead, Hela's dead, Ego's dead, The Ancient One is dead, Dormammu is banished, others that I'm probably forgetting. Pretty much anyone who had a real shot at either killing or stopping him is either dead or unable to act, making this the best time to get the stones.

[@turtleanton6539]

Cool

[@heydannypark]

He's also catching everyone off guard, or, as off guard as possible. So, with this info, and the point you make, Jonah, and other evidence that I'm sure we're forgetting, Thanos actually picked the perfect time to put his plan into motion. How do we know this? BECAUSE, IN THE SPACE OF ONE MOVIE, HE GETS ALL OF THE STONES, WITH RELATIVELY LITTLE RESISTANCE, AND KILLS HALF THE UNIVERSE, FULFILLING HIS PLAN. I've heard this criticism more than once, and it needs to stop because it's dumb. I think a much better criticism would be the method Thanos uses to fix the resources "problem." It really is a shitty solution (as well as a dick move), especially considering he has the gauntlet and the stones. I don't know what the best solution would be, probably because I'm the most humble person who ever lived, and I know my mental limitations. I mean, my limits, when it comes to intelligence, is most likely only matched by how humble I am, and my amazing lack of narcissism. Damn. I am humble. What were we talking about?

[@SuperfieldCrUn]

I also interpreted it as Nebula's attempt at killing him going awry is what set the events of Infinity War in motion, since he found the recording of Gamora telling Nebula about finding the Soul Stone, the only stone he had no information on at that point. Now that he had a clue about the last one, he could make a swift play for all of them at once, no stragglers.

[@teamcybr8375]

Also, he wanted to know where all of the stones were before starting collecting them. Once he starts stealing stones, people are going to catch on to what he's doing. And then he's got the whole universe uniting against him. If he got stuck at 3, 4, or even 5 stones for years, there's a very good chance he would have been killed.

[@Jfbmu]

He had to wait until he knew where all the stones were. And when he found out gamora knew it was from finding nebula and looking at her memories. If he tried to get the stones before he knew that then he wouldn't have been able to get all the stones/plan to get them all

[@thefluffyneko4450]

As for tony being stronger than the hulk, something people forget is the hulks strength scales with his rage. In raw strength the hulk outclasses almost if not all non cosmic entity's if he's angry enough. But when it comes to thanos, he's extremely smart and is able to take out the hulk quick enough. Think about it this way.. A fight with the hulk is not about being stronger, it's about taking him out before he's angry enough to whoop your ass.

[@guikoi3101]

I don't believe that has been established in the MCU, again, different continuities. Also, even if it has and I'm just not remembering it, we don't know the SCALE upon which he gets stronger with how angry he is. Let us say he is frustrated, and so can bench press 1000 tons for example, if he is now properly mad enough to want to punch someone, would be he able to bench press 5000 tons? We have no clue, he could just as reasonably be only able to bench press 1500 tons or less. We know that he gets significantly stronger when he becomes the Hulk, but after that? We have no clue what scale we're working with here. If you can provide any form of scale we could use to measure the strength to anger ratio given in the movies themselves, or by Word of God via the actors or directors, then we can use that. If you can't provide any such scale, then no, Hulk DOESN'T get stronger the more angry he is in the movie continuity.

[@thefluffyneko4450]

​@@guikoi3101 You do realize how ridiculous that criteria is if taken at face value right? "it doesn't matter if he's shown to get stronger when he's angrier in the movies, it gets stated by a director, etc if you can't provide a scale that allows us to measure what his strength to anger ratio is then he doesn't have that power". Now I'm assuming you didn't intend for it to, but it certainly comes across that way. But let's reverse this, can you prove that he doesn't have the power that everyone associates him with? I'll save us the argument, and we can just agree to disagree until one of us can back up our opinions with facts. All I can provide off the top of my head is that in his fight against abomination he was getting demolished at first but then as he got angrier, he got stronger until finally winning(it's honestly an amazing fight, you should watch it). Edit: Also if he didn't have this power that would mean we would never get world breaker hulk in the mcu, and that's just something I refuse to give up on so easily.

[@iamfenrir5386]

This point has been made before, but it isn't about Hulk or Thanos being stronger - the entire point of that fight was to show just how much of a badass Thanos really is. In fact the entire movie focuses hard on this: Thanos is strongest there is. Thanos is unstoppable. Puny Hulk.

[@iamfenrir5386]

@Guikoi also the MCU has established this already. I think people forgdt that The Incredible Hulk(Edward Norton) is actually an MCU movie, and in it, we see his rage against the Abomination help overpower him.

[@ishachandrasekar80]

TheFluffyNeko bug

[@thearcticfox343]

"I usually record before editing"

[@malcolmjenkins3585]

Ahhh Yes The floor here is made out of floor.

[@Elopez2]

Notice he said usually meaning he might have edited before recording

[@Kr1ssyKr0ssy]

@@Elopez2 why is that such a bad thing? I did that all the time

[@ozzabozzaz2819]

@@Kr1ssyKr0ssy You can't edit a video if you haven't even recorded it yet, because there's nothing to edit

[@klojoost1239]

Cinema Cins better not sin The logos for spiderverse. Those were awesome

[@KatieSteedArt1]

Or Captain Marvel

[@defenderofminorities3056]

Illidan Stormrage they also sinned the game of thrones opening, shame, shame.

[@seanclarke6733]

Katie's comment is correct, he sinned captain marvel but also removed 4 sins for it

[@DraconiaDrawing]

They did

[@petercross1879]

They did

[@tuckandrush3840]

Jay’s dating list: 1 - Accuracy - are their photos real, have they lied etc 2 - Race - well.......

[@Asdayasman]

"I'm not racist, I'm just not attracted to black women. That's just how it is." -- Zach Braff on burn victims.

[@wrayday7149]

Yes race, like a 100 yard dash, 100 meter sprint .... what were you thinking?

[@TheCrippledCreeper]

@@wrayday7149 any girl with a sub 12s 100m is where it's at

[@aTalkingKoala8294]

Purpleman bad

[@Clown_the_Clown]

Having a race preference in dating is not racist

[@Alphajet101]

Jay = Ironman Th3Birdman = Doctor Strange Cinema Sins = Thanos Infinity Stones = "It's just a joke, why take it so seriously?"

[@CreativeWorkflowHack]

Dont forget the milk. or the rhinos will deport you sis ass

[@geezburgers]

CinemaWins = Spider-Man

[@Alphajet101]

@@geezburgers Jay: "Alright man, you're a sinner now." *Slow Avengers theme kicks in*

[@thedoctor5777]

Bobvids = Captain America Shaun =Thor

[@Tardis-gk3iy]

Brooks show: Ronan from GOTG 1

[@nenrima]

Imagine if CinemaSins did rom-coms. Every video would have the EXACT same sins.

[@JadenMoon1475]

Yeah. That sin being - *_I VOMIT at the thought_* - Him looking at the *_BABY_* the teen athlete & cheerleader girlfriend are babysitting, and go: *_Insert baby's name_* isn't old enough to be my significant other, giving me a lap dance, or marrying me in this scene.

[@adhamwashere5320]

Jeremy is under the idea that if you're powerful enough you don't need any help from anyone ever. Why do you think he thinks thanos doesn't need the black order or the avengers don't need black widow or hawkeye?

[@joshuabell7761]

Hence with over 8 million subscribers, he thinks he can get away with making mistakes and that no one should correct him. Good point.

[@adzinco6916]

Adham Was Here but without hawkeye the avengers lost in infinity war, he's clearly the real mvp

[@Lenny-ue8hk]

Hawkeye is the glue that holds the avengers together. everytime he leaves, everything turns to shit and they break up.

[@deusexmachina9776]

@@Lenny-ue8hk we all know that is not true. him and natasha make no sense. literally how can two humans with no powers hold their own with the avengers? otherwise sheild would train everyone else like them and not bother with super powered beings.

[@nolin132]

@@deusexmachina9776 He's glue, Mr. Machina. Glue doesn't have to shoot lasers from its forehead to work. (Also the guy has inhuman accuracy which is extremely useful)

[@B-Roll_Gaming]

If I'm being charitable, the "close to infinite" line could be interpreted as "functionally infinite". Like Minecraft. There's not a literally infinite number of seeds in Minecraft, but there are so many that it's so far outside the realm of possibility to explore them all that we can treat it as being infinite for pragmatic purposes.

[@azraelbatosi]

"It sounds right as long as you don't put any thought into it" there, you've done it. You've fully described CibemaSins. Congrats. The rest of the vid is icing for me

[@tomchaney6085]

I wouldn't mind Jeremy going off on tangents, in fact many of my favourite media moments are tangents, but it does frustrate me that he adds sins for it. You can just say things without a ding, buddy

[@AndreRhineDavis]

Yeah Exactly. Jeremy just adds a "sin" for any comment on the movie whatsoever

[@tomchaney6085]

Frankly it devalues the sin as a currency, and we simply cannot afford that in these trying economic times

[@meaninglesscommenter8457]

Should a sin be worth anything? Just wondering.

[@jonathan_8747]

Sins aren’t worth anything “Because if they had value, they would lose their real value”

[@TheLivingSeven]

@@tomchaney6085 We need to do something to get ahead of this sinflation.

[@adzinco6916]

but Jay every sin is a joke it's just that your IQ isn't high enough to understand them, and you say you watch rick and morty smh

[@nootnewt9323]

You have to have at least an IQ of150 to understand the bad satire of CS

[@Zack_W]

ccbib 180*

[@thefruitbucket789]

Okay, so I was going to yell at you, but then I realized that this might be a joke, so I'll leave you alone. P.S: Is it a joke?

[@somedudewatchintv5297]

@@thefruitbucket789 I don't know him but i'm going to go ahead and say yes.

[@thefruitbucket789]

@@somedudewatchintv5297 k. Btw I like your name.

[@Rags]

The rhino that fights for Christmas is the real hero.

[@unspun1YT]

Rags where’s the apostrophe?

[@buckleuputile2395]

Yay, you're here

[@shaxerooney]

Rag

[@nickthompson7833]

I love you Rags.

[@nerdyoutube7847]

The war on Christmas

[@swevery]

On the stuff with Iron man/Hulk powerlevel: The Hulk in this movie is very different from the earlier movies (except Ragnarok). Banner can't convince the Hulk to come out when he wants and clearly something happened that has changed how the Hulk acts. Doesn't necessarily mean Hulk is weaker but it can definitely explain why he couldn't help the Asgardians earlier.

[@itzsquishy3712]

Well we can definitely say they nerfed him now huh

[@isdrakon9802]

Tony has also been preparing for everything and has grown in power, he's had run ins with two infinity stones and is very aware of their power.

[@DeathbyPixels]

Why didn’t Thanos just fly the eagles to Endor

[@kitchensinkchronicles3272]

about the banner hulk memory thing, banner can retain memories of what the hulk has done in the mcu. the only times he seems not to are the times when the transformation is unintentional on banner's part. for example, the first transformation in the avengers. (he asks afterwards if he hurt anybody.) or in age of ultron when natasha pushed him off a great height to bring out the hulk (he stayed the hulk until thor ragnarok). in thor ragnorok, he also uses a car as an analogy to better help thor, and by extension the audience, understand what the transformation feels like. usually banner can retain some memory because it's like the hulk is driving a car but banner has one hand on the wheel (like when banner initiates the transformation) so he can still see what's going on and has some influence. this is not the case when he's on sakaar because the transformation was brought on unintentionally, and banner described it as feeling like hulk was driving but banner was locked in the trunk. in this case, he remembers very little. the transformation into the hulk in infinity war is not shown on screen, but we can presume that it was brought on intentionally in order to use hulk to fight thanos, meaning banner would retain memory since he would see what's going on from 'having a hand on the wheel.' this is further backed up by the multiple attempts by banner to try and bring out the hulk intentionally to fight, so that's probably what he did at the start of iw and remembered what happened. sorry for the essay comment but i've done a lot of research on DID (dissociative identity disorder, formerly known as multiple personality disorder) and the similarities between that and banner/hulk in the mcu gives me a further understanding of the characters, since they seem legitimately like different people, especially in thor ragnarok. not to mention the car metaphor is the exact same one actual people with DID use to describe co-consciousness, or, two personalities being able to see what's going on at once.

[@lifereadguy9933]

This is a super late reply but I just wanted to say I loved your comment, it helped me to undestand a lot I couldn't make sense of before. Also the DID aspect is pretty interesting; I hadn't considered it earlier.

[@nasz1ryt970]

Underrated comment

[@matthewmuir8884]

Also, the film The Incredible Hulk established that even early on, he was always able to remember images and fragments of what happened.

[@risk5568]

Why did I read this whole comment

[@firemettle5760]

same but it awesome

[@MauLerYT]

This video is longer than the video it is criticising, you are am a bad. Please submit your critic card in the box provided = |__|

[@ralcogaming7674]

Jay has spent way too much time talking about cinemasins I'm sure we can make a ratio to show how much time he spends talking about things he doesn't like.

[@demisor9701]

I gotta say, I watched Black Panther and it isn't nearly as bad as you made it out to be.

[@JeevesAnthrozaurUS]

"You are am a bad" Do you are have stupid despacito

[@jalenrawlins9153]

Of course its longer, he has to show the clip of what is being criticized or being agreed with. As well as having the actual criticism. Have you ever have used brain.

[@Barfitlegriff]

Jalen Rawlins He’s clearly joking...

[@cicifuentes5685]

> Part one > 30 minutes This is gonna be great

[@trilobitose]

@@saeye i'm confused

[@BluenosedCash75]

16:08 Well, in Ragnarok, Banner says “If I change into the Hulk I may never come back.”, and it shows Hulk standing next to Thor’s seat/“throne” on the ship, so it can be safely assumed that Banner hasn’t been back out since he Hulked out during their fight with Hela.

[@EternalDensity]

Given how Hulk showed up so late to fight Thanos on the refugee ship, I guess that means Banner saw plenty before changing to Hulk which helped him remember details of who Thanos is upon arriving on Earth.

[@Alphajet101]

Jay deserves the Infinity Gauntlet.

[@rulerofthewild7747]

Dude 101 he already has the time stone. Just 5 more to go

[@rulerofthewild7747]

Also I have the space stone

[@guikoi3101]

No, Jared Genesis deserves the Infinity Gauntlet. The Spiders gave me their milk and I saw it.

[@PunkZombie1300]

@@guikoi3101 👌

[@horseoperamarker]

@@rulerofthewild7747 wait space stone is a thing?

[@chameleonfoot]

I just got into your channel in the past week, and I am so glad to be jumping onboard when I did. Excited to see more of this series!

[@drewstillexists]

Welcome

[@Gatekeeper2013]

When are you naming your channel “Cinema Sins Sins”

[@Luuuna]

It used to be called that, he changed it to Jay Exci later after he started doing things other than sinssins videos

[@horseoperamarker]

@@Luuuna huh

[@lextatertotsfromhell7673]

She used to have that as her name. She later discarded it, molting and coming out of the shell of Sinsins to mold a channel which makes a 5 hour video about dr. Who

[@MitchellD249]

You know what, I'm gonna defend Jeremy on the "close to infinite" thing. Yes, it's by definition impossible to be close to infinite in any kind of mathematical sense; anything finite is always going to be infinitely smaller than anything infinite. However, I can see "close to infinite" as being meant in the Minecraft sense. What on Earth do I mean by the Minecraft sense? I'm glad you asked Jay. Well, one of the appeals of Minecraft is that the world that generates in any playthrough is considered "infinite" with heavy emphasis on the quotation marks. It's not actually infinite. The boundaries of Minecraft are actually a surprisingly complex topic with there being several different kinds of them, but for simplicity it's just important to know that the game stores how many blocks you are away from the spawn point at any given time. If the world you played in were truly infinite, then there would have to exist points in the world (infinite of them in fact) that are so far away from the spawn point that the number of blocks is too big to even be stored on your computer. You obviously cannot travel this far in Minecraft and expect the game to continue to work, because computers have limitations. So how can people get away with the supposed lie that the worlds are infinite? Well, they may be finite, but they're so damn big that *for all intents and purposes, they may as well be infinite*. Nobody is going to start up a game of Survival Minecraft and accidentally travel a billion blocks away from the spawn point. That would literally take years of continuously moving in a single direction even if you assume no barriers whatsoever and never needing to stop to eat or anything like that. As far as the person playing is concerned, there is no endpoint that they would ever conceivably reach no matter how much they choose to explore. It's not infinite, but it's... kinda almost infinite in a sense? I'm going to assume that Jeremy meant the universe was just so big that even if not technically infinite, the stones would be so insanely far away that you might as well consider them infinitely far, because it would be absurd to think you could catch up. I mean they're supposed to have been flying outwards since like the Big Bang right? It is kind of weird that anybody has any of them. (Edit, I've now unpaused and seen the counter to that last sentence, ok fine I get it, portals and shit).

[@ffffdsd]

but how can you teleport to something that is constantly moving away from you? If there is a clear path with nothing to interrupt a stone then isn't it essentially like a marker for the edge of the universe? If so then once you teleport to a stone's location it will already have already travelled out of reach. it's not like you can teleport in front of the stone since it's at the edge of the universe, there's nothing in front of that, that area just doesn't exist. you also cant teleport into a stone's flight path and then rewind time so the stone comes backwards into your hand because your not removing the stone's forward momentum it would just fly forwards as soon as you resumed time. But lets say you could do that you'd need the space and time stone as well as possibly the power stone so that you could stop the stone your chasing from flying away once you resume time. so not only does that require 2-3 of the most powerful things in the universe but if any one of the required stones has a clear path and is on the edge of a constantly expanding universe then you are completely screwed. The odds of everything being perfect are so ridiculously low that thanos is just an idiot for even thinking this would be possible

[@dylanburke4410]

I don't really enjoy the fact that they made fun of him for saying "close to infinite" like he could have just stumbled on words no need to make fun of Jeremy like that

[@davidholmes2932]

@@ffffdsd You are right in the sense that every point in time is a marker for the edge of the universe since time is one-dimensional

[@mertarican5456]

@@dylanburke4410 dude that guy makes fun of stuff for exist ing XD

[@SpagettiSpeltWrong]

Yeah. If the universe has been forever expanding since the big bang, then it's reasonable to assume that you could possibly reach the "edge" of the universe. But because it'd be so unimaginably far from your current point, then it might as well be infinitely far away.

[@jordiemorrison7391]

-goes to look for part 2 -check post date -crap

[@dragonstormx]

There are many holes I have seen discussed with regards to CinemaSins, and I'm grateful to see the defense that CinemaSins is a comedy shot to pieces by you pointing out that they aren't funny.

[@F44B3]

They're only not funny when they're bashing a movie a lot of people enjoy apparently...

[@dragonstormx]

@@F44B3 I don't think they are funny even they are criticizing bad movies like Aliens: Covenant. I felt their video on that movie was just boring.

[@blazethegryphon9990]

@@dragonstormx I honestly found most of their little witty remarks in this specific video pretty entertaining, and the fact that he ignores most of them because they didn't anounce it as a joke bugs me. I mean, "75% bitching about the traffic on the freeway" is hard to take serious...or not?

[@Ze_eT]

@@blazethegryphon9990 The problem is not that they attempt comedy and bad criticism, it's that they mix good and bad criticism with comedy that would be the same no matter how good or bad the criticism is. It's a movie criticism channel that can't criticise and it knows it, thus it makes some attempted jokes randomly to hope people will excuse it with parody.

[@johnymustacio]

dad jokes are a thing, maybe you shouldn't try to sound objective about what people find to be funny.

[@gingerbreadmatt2783]

For the hulk/banner memory thing I'd like to point out that in real cases of Dissociative memory disorder (aka multiple personality disorder) the dominant personalities can choose what other personalities can see of their lives. Therefore if hulk is the dominant one (which I assume he is as he is in control of being there) he can allow banner to see thanos as a threat but not his time on the junk planet.

[@Shoddragon]

23:44 feels like a mistake. Jeremy isn't sinning Loki's death for being "Loki dying yet again!", he's ultimately sinning it because of Thor 2's Loki death scene and even says so. While the criticisms of Loki dying so many times might be valid, sinning IW for something that happened in a different movie would fail the Relevance criteria imo. 25:42 I think is extremely debatable at the very LEAST. in Homecoming, Miles Morales' uncle doesn't freak out when shown the Ultron weapons, simply saying "I'm not tryna shoot them back in time". Vulture's crew even gets upset that a government task force was going to be cleaning up after the Battle of New York instead of him, indicating that New Yorkers really aren't as scared as Jeremy believes and just kinda see all this stuff as every day life. In Infinity War, Stan Lee's character calmly says "what's the matter with you kids, never seen a spaceship before?". There is absolutely precedent for new yorkers not freaking out of Tony Stark walking around nor even Strange showing up. While I can concede that this is debatable, it's definitely not a concrete sin.

[@nexusshark]

I agree, especially the first point.

[@jonahbardwell551]

To add on to your second point, look at Thor: Ragnarok wherein Thor, who hasn't been seen on Earth in years gets approached causally to take a selfie. New Yorkers in this universe are obviously pretty used to this shit.

[@userasdf]

I wouldn't use Stan Lee's cameo as a point since we see in guardians that Stan Lee is even talking to the watchers about his life in a pretty casual fashion and implies that it was the same Stan Lee at least in 1 other movie (when he was a mailman I think). While we cant be sure this stan lee cameo is the same person as the one I guardians, it should at least be mentioned that it could be and if so Stan Lee has seen some shit and a spaceship would be nothing to him. For additional points however you can say how in Thor Ragnar ok loki and Thor and standing around NYC as well and get portaled away and only 2 girls walk up to Thor for a selfy I think just cus they think he's a hot celeb more than omg he's a god/alien. So it does seem most new yorkers at least are pretty used to crazy shit and even super famous ppl.

[@Shoddragon]

Guardians 2 confirms that he is a Watcher informant, however being an informant also requires him to be fitting in. It would be odd for him to be acting so casually about the spaceship if it wasn't a somewhat shared attitude amongst new yorkers. Tying that in with his appearance in Homecoming and everyone else just seeing the chitauri and ultron weaponry as just strong weapons instead of anything crazy, I think it's pretty much confirmed that New Yorkers in the MCU are concretely meh about crazy events now.

[@LastLightgg]

I agree with you. For the 2nd part, I think it could even be seen as a joke that nobody notices - cuz fucking New Yorkers right? They've seen everything.

[@terraphantom1039]

The reason Thanos moved when he did is because Asgard was a threat. Asgard defended the dwarf world where he would need to have the gauntlet made and so long as Asgard could send their armies he couldn't risk it

[@matthewparker9276]

There is also the matter of knowledge. He couldn't move until he knew all the stones were locatable, which required kidnapping nebula to find out camera knows where the soul stone was. If it was just a matter of asguard he could have started as soon as immediately after Thor 2, (though he probably did move shortly after then).

[@dracocrusher]

18:30 This is one of the things I love about this film, it's such a small detail but it makes complete sense. Hulk is way stronger than Thanos physically, but he's just blindly swinging around. And then you look at Thanos and he's using actual boxing techniques, like he's dodging attacks, countering, he's maneuvering around to hit him from his blind spots, etc. It completely makes sense that Thanos is able to win because he's up there enough and he's able to fight way smarter and more efficiently. That's part of why I really wish they did more with Smart Hulk. Smart Hulk is basically this exactly, you take the super strength and you give them the ability to actually use more refined techniques and reason things out. But they just kind-of treat it as a joke, so Bruce just doesn't get anything to really do in Endgame that would show how much more effective Smart Hulk is.

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

He snaps half of all life in the Universe back into existence, I think that took it out of him a bit.

[@dracocrusher]

@@itcouldbelupus2842 Sure, but even before that, right? They have this whole thing about going back in time and collecting the stones and instead of finding some way to justify giving Smart Hulk someone to fight he just runs into the monk from Dr. Strange and has to convince her to give him the time stone. So you never really see what Hulk's capable of now that he's able to actually plan out his actions. It also doesn't really help that his plan is kind-of BS because if they go back again I'd assume it would just create a completely different timeline so that version of New York just wouldn't have the stones at all, but that's a whole other thing that I might not even be understanding right with how vague their rules on time travel are.

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

@@dracocrusher Yeah that's fair, he was more of an emotional core to the story rather than a fighter. But the movie is already so long, I don't know what to cut out just to have hulk fight someone. Agreed on the Time travel stuff, I'm not sure if their plan makes sense with the rules they established but any time travel stuff gets weird and breaks its own logic, I try not to dwell on it.

[@onemansopinion8135]

Having lived in New York City, I can say pretty much for a fact that unless a celebrity is making a conscious effort to be seen by the public (i.e. coming out of a theater after a performance or what have you) the majority of New Yorkers don’t care. They see celebrities all the time and there is generally a mutual understanding between celebrities and them that they let them be. If I do happen to be standing right next to one, I’ll give a polite acknowledgment to them and compliment their work, but that’s as far as I go and that is generally true with most New Yorkers. So seeing Tony Stark in Central Park is just a normal Sunday afternoon in New York City. Not a big deal. A portal opening up? That may be another deal. The last time New York saw a portal open up in public, giant alien creatures came spewing out of it and destroyed a chunk of the city.

[@stephenmarco2927]

One Man's Opinion yeah it’s like how people who live in L.A. will tell you that they see movie stars all the time but it’s rude to just go up to them. To add on to this if you saw a guy who looked like Brad Pitt you wouldn’t necessarily assume it’s Brad Pitt. You would be like that guy kind of looks like Brad Pitt.

[@starcycle4308]

This has mildly restored some faith in humanity.

[@onemansopinion8135]

@@starcycle4308 you replying just now reminded me that yesterday, I was back in NYC seeing an off-Broadway revival of Assassins and Victor Garber, Martin Short, and Cynthia Nixon were in the audience and nobody bothered them. Granted they had masks on the entire time, so who knows how many people actually recognized them.

[@johnymustacio]

oh, i think there would be a bit of a eifference between seing a normal celebrety and seing iron man... espicially since his pressence could be a sign of some major catastrophe...

[@onemansopinion8135]

@@johnymustacio lol I'd concede that. Iron Man shows up, start looking to the skies for trouble. Except that it's just Tony Stark walking around and not visibly geared up, so things must be cool. At least for the next few minutes.

[@theskepticalapple4203]

Serious Jay is serious...jayrious!? DING

[@jobeedrost]

Why would you steal a sin from CinemaSins. Smh.

[@gub4941]

God damn, you have him down to a tee

[@horseoperamarker]

lmao

[@lillolita237]

Idk what it is about Jeremy’s voice but it triggers a fight or flight response in me But besides that, this video is legit. Thanks for everything you do, love :-)

[@russianbear7832]

26:26 I can imagine someone being like “What’s that? Never mind. I’ve seen other and weirder crap before. Like that giant worm in the sky! Good times.

[@lauraw2526]

I love this! Actual critical commentary, and you make me appreciate the movie more. I watched Cinema Sins for a long time out of habit, but I never could figure out why I didn't really enjoy it much, especially the later ones.

[@LibertyLocalizer]

3:43. That's racist.

[@Ellisika]

Matthew Mazzetti DING

[@themarkktv]

Jeremy is still white in this scene *ding*

[@turtleanton6539]

Yes

[@Roescoe]

very racial

[@kryoruleroftheninthcircleo4151]

Racian.

[@silvercomics3517]

Some added info: 1. Thanos waited so long because he didn’t know where the Soul Stone was. If he had 5/6 stones, he couldn’t wipe out half the universe right away. This would mean that he would be attacked by every army in the universe to try to stop him. Seven people were able to stop him long enough to almost get the gauntlet off, so billions of people could definitely stop him. 2. The Asgardins are on a big ship, Hulk could be on the other side of the ship during the attack. 3. Jeremy sins the logos because they make it longer for the movie to start, but the logo is part of the story, so he’s sinning it just for the sake of tradition.

[@BadgerPride89]

Also re: stones going in different directions away from each other: um, the universe is 14 billion years old. Like, that's a huge amount of time for stuff to happen, especially because we know that other civilizations in the MCU are way older than Earth. So a few of the stones getting closer and closer together is not only possible, it's likely.

[@ralcogaming7674]

Not to mention many have clearly been found and moved no matter where they went originally they have not stayed static since, as many civilizations would have began forming very quickly.

[@harrisont2004]

Yeah, and literally of the only three that are on earth, two (maybe all) of them were put there by asgardians, which makes sense considering the expanse of the nine realms.

[@generallykaiden]

26:30 I gotta admit, I actually kind of agree with Jeremy on this one, and I've brought it up with my friends. The universe is not infinite but it is so mind boggingly enormous that it might as well be infinite for all intents and purposes (which is what I think Jeremy was trying to convey there), and if the stones were conceived in the big bang and sent hurtling across the virgin universe, saying that all six stones ending up in the Milky Way galaxy is a hell of a contrivance is a complete understatement.

[@Alter292]

I agree. Certainly must be a better reason for them to congregate there of all places. I mean sure, traveling is one thing, but how did that information even spread to anyone where the stones might have landed? At least the dragon balls were on the finite planet of Earth. As a point I heard, the universe is so large that you could go in one direction long enough to run into an exact copy of you eventually before reaching the edge.

[@trianglemoebius]

​@@Alter292 Sorry about the necro, but I feel the need to point out that all the stones were NOT in the Milky Way originally (and, in the case of Power Stone, still weren't at the start). The Reality Stone was in whatever galaxy Svartalfheim was in until it got brought to the Milky Way some time prior, and the Space Stone was in Asgard's galaxy (judging by the tesseract having been given to humanity by the Asgardians). No idea where the Mind Stone was, but even if that did start in the Milky Way, it'd have been the only one that did so. EDIT: Just remembered that the Mind Stone was probably from whereever the Chituari originated, which is why it would be in the sceptre.

[@thebrutusmars]

For the Hulk not joining the battle one, it could be reasonably assumed that he was hiding, having trouble transforming into Hulk that entire time. He had trouble transforming in both Ragnarok and Infinity War. When Loki said “we have a Hulk” he could have either seen the transformation from wherever Hulk is, or he could’ve just been blindly saying it hoping Hulk would’ve transformed at that point. I think it makes sense.

[@jscarlet8393]

Also: The Edward Norton film, which is canon according to Iron Man 2 and the Avengers, Banner mentions that he gets flashes from his time as The Hulk.

[@Ellisika]

Next up: a breakdown of Spiderman: Far From Home trailer from the perspective of someone who wasn’t notified of it as soon as it came out. (Lol, good video Jay, keep it going)

[@TOONYBOY]

I fit that description. I nearly got murdered when my friend asked me if I'd seen the trailer. My reaction was "I didn't know it was out yet". Free College WiFi saved my life

[@L0LWTF1337]

Thanos motivation makes more sense in the comics: He kills have the universe just to get laid. The Incel is strong in this one.

[@JosepiThe13th]

I noticed the name change. I like it. It makes your channel feel more unique than just a Cinema Sins clone of sorts.

[@AttonBrown]

"It sounds like it could be right until you put some actual thought in it." Cinemasins in a nutshell

[@michaelpatterson2585]

Regarding sin #5: Has Jeremy like... never played rock, paper, scissors before? Like if person A wins against person B, and person B can defeat person C, that doesn't automatically mean person A can beat person C. He makes these types of criticisms all the time and it's so asinine. May as well say "paper absolutely COVERED rock, and rock smashed the crap out of scissors, but somehow we're supposed to believe that scissors was able to go toe to toe with paper???"

[@SessVlogs]

Stealing this argument the next time I get into the Hulk v Thanos argument, thank you!

[@messofabeing9392]

THANK YOU SO MUCH

[@caliginousmoira8565]

paper can dull or break scissors lol.... really good paper

[@xinhh3093]

btw congrats on getting 40k like a week ago. i'm late sorry

[@fatcat8088]

It's important to remember that just because something isn't funny doesn't mean its not comedy, it's just bad comedy.

[@darthvaderbutwayshittier7054]

"The second criterium is race-" - Germany in the 30s and 40s

[@ralcogaming7674]

Sin 11: in the comics hulk became smarter the longer banner was hulk this showing us that even if they have seperate personalities they still share a mind. And banner had been hulk for a long time as of ragnarok meaning their mind has probably bonded and adapted. This is why the hulk is so calm in much of that movie as compared to others

[@horseoperamarker]

ah

[@ThatGuy-jj3kz]

Mr Jay, I feel good

[@poisondamage2182]

are you harlequinn?

[@liaminator4950]

Good

[@LibertyLocalizer]

Thank God. I was getting worried about you, Jay.

[@edgarallenhoe3518]

"Measure twice, cut once" is a statement you learn to take *very* literally in any kind of art or shop class

[@z7983]

YES. Iron Man is more powerful than Hulk. According to the Power Rankings given on Marvel's official website Iron Man is the highest rated superhero, beating Hulk by one point. Power rankings of all major superheroes introduced in MCU are as follows - Iron Man - 33/42 Thor - 32/42 Hulk - 32/42 Captain Marvel - 29/42 Doctor Strange - 25/42 Black Panther - 21/42 Spiderman - 19/42 Captain America - 18/42 Scarlet Witch - 18/42 Ant Man - 15/42 Hawkeye - 13/42 That obviously doesn't mean he can beat everyone below him but it clearly means that he can do things than others can't. Cinema Sins is literally just criticising a comic book movie for being comic accurate. Also, why are we forgetting that Iron Man was wearing Bleeding Edge armour ? As BirdMan said "that suit is badass". This armour makes Iron Man one of (if not THE) most powerful hero on earth. He can easily go toe to toe with Thor, beat Red Hulk without breaking a sweat, and take down the Sentry without much trouble either. In the comics, it could even survive Odin Force which would probably crush Thanos. The only armours of Iron Man that were more powerful than this were his cosmic based armours where he combines them with magical/cosmic powers or his Endo Sym armour where Tony basically becomes a god. Even in the movies, it survived a planet thrown at him using power stone & a direct attack from power stone which could destroy a planet in seconds so no shit it did way better than Hulk.

[@coolmemer4208]

Exactly, thank you !

[@caliginousmoira8565]

was not a PLANET/MOON .... PIECES, not the whole damned thing....... i wish everyone would stop saying that

[@moonblaze2713]

You used comic power ratings for the movie continuity. I dont actually disagree with your conclusion. But you led with evidence that just doesnt apply.

[@stuartp2006]

Ok, first we write all the characters as HERO system characters...

[@angelicreaper6061]

I just want a endless war where cinema wins responds with a everything wrong with everything wrong with everything wrong and watch it go back and forth

[@iainhansen1047]

So it begins...................................................................................................................

[@davidmendez3899]

Bruce has always had some recollection of what’s happened as the hulk, most likely determined on how “crazy/mad/out of control” the hulk is

[@samuelbarber4154]

Also Banner completely forgot the two years between Ragnarok and Age of Ultron, however, being that the Hulk is terrified of facing Thanos, it seems he may have also made an impression on Banner.

[@TheDiego908]

22:02 the best choking sound I've ever heard since my dehydration-inducing stomach sickness

[@Technical_Tony]

As soon as I heard that first *crunch* I knew Jay was putting in a clip of my other boy Birdman

[@DavidRay39]

This is going to be good, I can tell.

[@Alphajet101]

How was it?

[@DavidRay39]

@@Alphajet101 I'm still watching it. I was at work (on a break) when I began watching it.

[@LibertyLocalizer]

David Ray Well?

[@doomy_mcdoomerson]

For sins 13 and 14: 1) In a deleted scene for IW, it was shown that Happy Hogan was in the park running interference for Stark. 2) After the portal opens, when the camera is on Stark, you can clearly see people in the background reacting to and looking at the portal.

[@hamsanandini7647]

I think with sin no 13, Strange just hit the emergency button. There was no time (hah) to worry about things like "what would happen if people see a magic portal opening up in the middle of New York??" He was literally racing against time (hah) to get to Tony and protect the Mind Stone, and that required the utmost speed, more than anything else.

[@felynecomrade]

I'm taking exception to the "Loki death" Sin. For starters, just because a character has apparently died before and turned out to still be alive doesn't necessarily mean that every subsequent death scene is also false. One fake-out death doesn't make a character immortal. It's entirely possible for a character to have a false death and then a real one. Let's use another MCU example: James "Bucky" Barnes, Captain America's friend and WWII squadmate. In Captain America The First Avenger, he falls off the Hydra train and seemingly dies. Then in Captain America The Winter Soldier it is revealed that he survived and was reborn as the movie's titular Winter Soldier. Then in Avengers Infinity War after Thanos snaps his fingers and disappears, he is the first one we see turn to dust. His first death scene was a fake-out. His second is real. Secondly, Loki's powers of illusion that we have seen extend only to fooling the senses sight and sound- not touch. In fact, one of Loki's favourite uses of his power is to conceal his true self and create a false self for his enemies to attack. When they do, their strike usually passes through the illusion, breaking it. We clearly see Thanos grab Loki, first by the arm, and then the neck. Loki wouldn't be able to fake that. Also, it's THANOS. He's no fool. If he wants to kill someone, he'll kill them. They won't be able to easily trick him. And even if Loki somehow DID manage to fool Thanos, the ship then blew up, so if Loki survived Thanos' AND the explosion, he's now alive he's adrift in the void of space. Granted, Thor survived both, but Thor's always been tougher than Loki and he may have only survived the latter because the Guardians picked him up. That's not one, not two, but THREE obstacles Loki would have to get around to escape with his life. I'm betting he didn't make it past the first one. Plus the Sin was given for Thor The Dark World's scene. That's what he openly says. Maybe a joke, but oh well.

[@virginiafernandez6846]

So, for one, he's faked his death (accidentally or not) twice. It's a ¨thing¨ for him. Second, Bucky came back, so while he did die, his WAS a fakeout death, just as everyone who god dusted. Which became obvious as soon as Spider-man got dusted. Thirdly. Do you know how popular Loki is? Disney would sooner cut the writer's toes than letting them perma-kill Loki.

[@LibertyLocalizer]

I haven't watched this video yet, but I'm super excited.

[@LibertyLocalizer]

It was awesome.

[@chiliad09]

For sin thirteen there are people in the background looking at the portal, while it is not very noticeable, it is there. Though I still think the sin still has some validity, considering most don't see it. P.S. Love your work.

[@lrmarshall5930]

Late to the game, but regarding Banner's memories, he was probably in Banner-mode when Thanos showed up. He's also a smart guy, so he may have taken into account that he was topless in some dude's staircase, beaten to a pulp with flashes of vague memories as a good marker that he lost (add the fact that Thor and co were beaten too, it wouldn't be a hard assumption to come to).

[@Angel_8266]

Well we do know what Thanos got for lunch he got some KFC as we see in "(ASMR) Thanos talks to you about his plans, but he's on a lunch break with some fresh KFC" as you see

[@minder01]

Thanos also considered using the stones as mercy instead of killing half of everything.

[@ReinBelmont]

I guess Thanos is like me, it takes me a couple of movies getting ready to get out and do something. I put on a shoe, maybe check any new notification, tie one shoelace, watch a funny video on KZbin, oh look, I'm an hour late now.

[@TRJTRY1]

life cycle of a loki, step 1 die step 2 steal the tesseract

[@emixam6947]

My theory for why Thanos started late was always that Odin would f**k him up if he tried to early, so he waited till he heard of Odin's death

[@ReignSupreme2014]

Thanos decided that now was the time to collect the stones because Nebula snuck on his ship and tried to kill him. When he interrogated her and checked memory files he saw that Gamora had a conversation with Nebula that proved Gamora knew where the Soul Stone was.

[@puurplegiraffe]

Second criteria: Race

[@jinxysaberk]

What if thanos had diabetes and forgot to take his Insulin before boarding Thor’s ship. I think that’s the true sin of the movie

[@TurntBucket]

We live in a world of car crashes. Ppl still stop to stare. Car crashes are much more common IRL than seeing the avengers and magic in the MCU universe.

[@PippiOnePointOh]

You obviously put a lot more thought into these things than CinemaSins does. And I appreciate that. Well done, my dude. 😎👍👍

[@aviowl]

I usually record BEFORE editing You: decides to edit before recording WOW LOOK NOTHING

[@rememberjerry936]

man I've always thought of cinema sins as be like watch-mojo where everyone has a faze and watch them but eventually come to realize that they are substanceless clickbate made by a person whose lost sight of there passion.

[@Luinta]

My favorite part of videos that dissect other critical videos is when they say "I tried, but if I messed up, LET ME KNOW" instead of also playing the "It's jsut a casual/humor thing" card. I've seen some criticism-criticism vids do that or claim infallibility and it always comes off as hypocritical or even extremely lacking in self awareness lol. Really love that you provide the context and info for each counter point and that you still point out hte sins that were legit. You have earned a sub

[@cyx7784]

6:28 is when the video starts.

[@emperorleachicus2199]

I’m gonna be like the people on TLJ trailer when you did your comment reading video. I’m gonna say I like this video and it’s great without actually being able to watch it yet. EDIT: I was right

[@sausje]

At 25:40 in that clip, you can see 2 people walking into the frame on the left side and the blond woman does turn her head. So your argument that at least one person should give a look at the portal is kinda defeated :P

[@pain2573]

I know I remember people looking at the portal.

[@rafaelmontoya1454]

Ironman was better equipped to fight thanos because he had been preparing for it since the first avengers. Thats the reason he created ultron in the first place.

[@oliverqueen474]

21:20 Also, the Black Order (Thanos’s children) weren’t even created in the comic books until 2015, so the only point that they could have been introduced would be the Age Of Ultron post credit scene.

[@YouMustsaListen]

Why didn’t Thanos, instead of cutting half the population, instead double resources? :0

[@Myranmia83]

Is this a joke? Because if he did rich/needy people would take it. So it would not help anyone

[@YouMustsaListen]

@@Myranmia83 That makes sense and no sense at the same time. Wouldn’t the rich who didn’t get snapped just again take the resources from the poor who didn’t get snapped? Both Scenarios DON’T prevent greedy rich people from taking the resources, even if the resources doubled or half the population disappears. So, again, why didn’t Thanos double the resources, less people suffer as no one gets snapped.

[@Myranmia83]

@@YouMustsaListen idk his plan was weird from the start

[@tedward1382]

presumably space was a factor. He would have to create new planets and gravity would cause them to collide, or he would have to move half the population to that new planet. Basically, it would be a whole lot more complex for him to double the resources, and it might take a greater toll on him than what he did.

[@SomeGlasses]

Yeah but genocidal maniacs will be genocidal maniacs

[@youngjah2010]

3:44 Huffington Post: *Is Jay From SinsSins a Racist!!!*

[@LibertyLocalizer]

Thaaaaat's Jay isn't.

[@SpeciallyShirly]

19:23 It was confirmed Valkyrie fled with the other half of the Asgardians using escape-pods

[@BSJINTHEHOUSE420]

Get this man a Thanos.

[@TOONYBOY]

Woah woah woah, you're jumping ahead their pal. You need to evacuate the city and engage all defenses first.

[@TOONYBOY]

@Snyderverse I don't know if I'm tho one that's meant to respond

[@PayondeAwsome]

Get this Thanos a man.

[@majumder456]

It is actually confirmed that Bleeding Edge is stronger than Hulkbuster. So it makes sense that Iron Man held his own against Thanos.

[@promitdasdhrubo8888]

Jay:Everthing wrong with Avengers Infinity War Marvel Fans:You know,... WE KNOW YOUR LOCATION.

[@hayo_hru]

oMG It'S fOr cOmEDy! wHy dO yoU tAKe it So sErIoUSLy? yOU tHE bIrDMan kNockoFf!

[@theHuMaNawesomeness]

Hey Jay, loving this new type of video and cant wait for the others. However there was one thing in here that I think you not nessessarally got wrong but maybe seen in a different perspective then what I think cinemasins was going for. In sin 8 you gave focus to him saying "75% of the mcu..... thanos bitching in traffic" (you get the idea didnt wanna copy it all down). You point out that Thanos has only been in like 4 small scenes, but I dont think that's what he meant about the 75%. Heres how I interpreted it: 1. I think what he meant was for 75% of the MCU, Thanos has been shown as the big bad and supposed to be coming, as he was shown in avengers or 6 movies in of the 18 he says, but has taken so long to finally make his move that it's like hes "stuck in traffic". The math is a bit wrong but I'm pretty sure he meant the 75% in that context and not that 75% of the MCU included Thanos. 2. I honestly think this is one and only 'joke' in this segment, not a great one IMO but one I have heard before from other people critisizing Thanos and how long it took for this movie from the initial reveal. I even heard this joke back when avengers 2 came out and people were wondering why Ultron was the bad guy and not Thanos. 3. That being said a earlier sin (sin 4) you already unknowingly broke down the inaccuracies of Thanos being stuck in traffic, as it's pretty much the same thing as why hasn't Thanos already collected the infinity stones. That's why I said in the beginning you didnt really get it wrong. Anyways my comment is now almost longer than your video so I'll end it, hope you enjoyed reading it and gives you a new perspective on that particular sin.

[@gracekim25]

theHuMaNawesomeness oh I get it

[@theexchipmunk]

Another point. Thanos avoids hits from Hulk, he beats him with superior skill, not strength.

[@deathby1kslimes945]

14:29 I think the space stone would still survive, it was born from the big bang, it has probably been near much more powerful or destructive events since then. Like, it could have been in the heart of a supernova at some point and would have survived.