Andrew Tate and Ancient Ideas About Women

[@Bizarro69]

The infuriating thing with Tate is that despite his mother being the one who did all of the heavy lifting of actually being a present parent for their entire life he absolutely ADORES his father who not only abandoned his mother but often verbally abused her in front of the kids, letting her know that he didn't stay around because she had expectations! The crime of demanding your partner to be exactly that, a partner!!! He wanted a servant and she refused to bow. How funny that Tate has become a man who demands the same of women that his father failed to get out his mother. The role bad fathers play in their son's development must not be under stated.

[@julietfischer5056]

He has nothing but contempt for people who do the heavy lifting in society. It's all about being bigger, badder, and wealthier than every other man on the planet. Proving himself to his father.

[@Steven-ze2zk]

I think the main problem with Tate is that he has a black parent.

[@julietfischer5056]

@@Steven-ze2zk- And out comes the racism.

[@dcollins4679]

@@Steven-ze2zk He had an irresponsible, abusive and absent father. What ever his ethnicity he was a poor excuse of a man, partner and father.

[@Steven-ze2zk]

@@julietfischer5056 It was just a joke, man. Don't take it seriously.

[@heatherfaust7643]

There’s not much out there that makes me as giddy as an educated woman ripping misogynist arguments to shreds with facts

[@lesliemoiseauthor]

^^^^^

[@harrys919]

@@teddiemack8071 what

[@bludluva]

As long as you’re equally giddy when misandrists disguised as feminists get equally ripped to shreds with said facts, I couldn’t agree more

[@Brittanyem]

Making you “giddy” suggests a lack of compassion for the fact that even those labelled “misogynists” are human beings worthy of empathy. This traditional value is what most of these “vacuums” are eluding to but unfortunately there is so much prejudice against this point of view that any support quickly has you slapped with a label and your voice silenced.

[@julietfischer5056]

@@teddiemack8071- You met a couple of women who didn't like you, so all feminists hate men?

What I hate the most of Tate's (and others') discourse is that force men to fit in a very restricted role. It's a "if you don't like this you're not a man" type of model which is terribly damaging to men themselves. We're all humans and as humans we have many dimensions and many ways to go about things. Telling someone if you're not this you're nothing it's horrible.

[@CowMaster9001]

Unlike feminism, which brands you toxic and tries to destroy your life if you don't fit their role.

[@Jack-zf3rz]

@@CowMaster9001 lol, what? Are strawmen arguments the only thing you're capable of?

[@moodyonroody5313]

he rips men off in his Ponzi scheme .... he's no even pro-men just pro himself

@@CowMaster9001 Uh? Who said anything about feminism?

[@robertblume2951]

If trans is correct then so are Tate and the others either being masculine is a certain set of traits and a role or its genetic. Pick one.

[@mshearn3198]

Tate is a funny guy, like really funny, unintentionally speaking. There's a video where he complains about his brother eating sushi, where he claims that easting T-bone stake makes you tougher than someone eating sushi. He's the epitome of fragile masculinity, a complete clown.

[@petereames3041]

I’m pretty sure that was a joke...

[@BlackPanther-qo2tv]

So glad I'm not on your side of the fence. You sound like a broken person.

[@rynemcgriffin1752]

@@petereames3041Sure it was

[@e.tezani3877]

This.. same with Joe Rogan fans who are seeing the twilight of the gods apon them and their ideals.

[@mariafernandaaviles2384]

I really enjoyed this video. Sometimes I struggle to describe how being a feminist doesn't mean you don't care about men's issues, you did a great job with that.

[@CowMaster9001]

And being part of the anti-abolition movement doesn't mean you don't care about the problems your slaves have.

[@Jack-zf3rz]

@@CowMaster9001 wow dude, are you even able to make a coherent and rational argument?

[@clwho4652]

Being feminist men's yo care about men because men's issues can effect women.

[@woodlandthing]

@@clwho4652 Everyone is negatively affected when the people we love or our wider community suffer, not just women. Maybe I’m just lucky not to be surrounded by bad people.

[@clwho4652]

@@woodlandthing That is part of what I was saying. Its like the old saying "no man is an island".

[@andrewkeeton4781]

I’ve got a friend who took the bait hard. His girl left him and he’s in a bad custody battle which is just adding fuel to the fire I’ve tried to talk sense into him but he just won’t let go of the whole “I should be able to sleep with anyone but she can’t” bullshit and I’m just like dude what about your kid? He’s started to not care if he misses his days with his son and it’s all just really sad like he was a really great guy and had an awesome life.

[@C12341]

I hope things turn around for your friend. Tate's philosophy will absolutely destroy the lives of normal men, I hope people start realizing that. Only uber rich can pull off what he's doing and even then they seem to be failing at what matters most because they don't think of the consequences of multiple women and children without present dads - think of Elon Musk - he has all those kids from different women and a child has already emancipated themselves from him. Clearly all the money and worldly success meant nothing to that kid. Rather be poor with an involved father who isn't a slave to their lusts like a hungry ghost

[@jeffbrownstain]

Good thing someone is smart enough to have the conversations I'm too dumb for.

[@MrGorillafist]

You're not dumb at all. The reason I know this is you're willing to listen and learn. Always something to be applauded.

[@jeffbrownstain]

@@MrGorillafist Dumb-to-Smart is a 4-Dimensional Tesseract-shaped spectrum that exists in 3 planes of reality. I am indeed to dumb to speak about misogyny in prevty much any regard or form, yet that I'm smart enough to learn and do better is irrelevant in my opinion.

[@evildead167]

Excellent work! I found this part to be especially powerful: "We have seen through the rise of the popularity of people like Andrew Tate that the cultural task of helping men grow and prosper cannot be neglected. And the opportunity to write a new pro-social script for masculinity, one that is empowering, supportive, and celebratory of men, is necessary."

[@jtl-en4yx]

Honestly society is so terrible I do not even want to see what this new masculinity it would create would be! One thing you can be sure of, it will be about control!

[@l.s.d.5863]

I'd rather see a script that's supportive and celebratory of humans. Some division of perception and ideal along gender lines is inevitable as long as men and women have considerably different experiences in society, but I think the closer we can get to having a universal script of what a decent human is, instead of having to measure ourselves by gender or allot aspects of character by gender, the better for everyone.

[@ylimeyh]

I agree, but it's frustrating. I liked the portion on male malaise. Women and minorities have had to work harder achieve what they have, and their success is well-deserved. I do think men need something positive to work towards, but it often feels like they feel "entitled" to success without putting in the work towards achievement or merit. I'm wondering where these young men's fathers are and why they end up going to Tate for advice. I feel like other men should be the ones to write this new "script for masculinity" but I don't see a lot of men stepping up to the plate in this regard.

[@petereames3041]

Men are constantly demonised and criticised by the mainstream. Is it really a surprise that so many young men are drawn to figures like Tate when he is one of the few figures that actually supports them?

[@ylimeyh]

@@petereames3041 I really don't think that is true. At least not any more than women and minorities are. Problematic men, like Tate, are criticized for their actions and words, and that's to be expected. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. Tate very openly demonizes and criticizes women. Just because men are being held to higher standards doesn't mean men should just become reactionary and hateful. Tate doesn't even "support" men, he cons them out of money and grooms them.

[@Astrianaut]

I feel like Andrew Tate watched one day a documentary about how women were treated in the early 20th century and was like: yes, that's great, why don't we do that nowadays as well?

[@matthewhines9787]

I'm in tears right now. Thank you so very much, Cinzia. I am a liberal, white, cis, gay man. I was raised in a heteronormative but not overtly oppressive nuclear family. My father was well-meaning but often unsure what to do with me because even though he wasn't all chest beating aggressively macho, he was a Navy man who liked to work on cars, build things, tinker with electronics, drink beer, and occasionally make misogynistic jokes. However, he also loved folklore, fantasy novels, renaissance festivals, arts & crafts, and had taken ballet off and on for most of his minority. In short...he was from Oregon. The point is, I grew up feeling like I wasn't masculine enough...not a revelation for a gay guy to have issues with feeling like a man. However, because the version I had in my life to emulate was less Andrew Tate and more...if Bob Ross and Mike Rowe had a love child, my role model of masculinity seemed attainable...at least subconsciously. It has been like a carrot dangling in front of me on a string. This has led to a weird sort of limbo where I readily and enthusiastically ally myself with the feminist cause, but I also have some base need to be a protector, provider, and/or engineer of chivalry in the lives of women around me. The way you spoke of men who feel left behind and unsure of their place in the wake of the rise of women's freedom and success, but are also emotionally and mentally invested in that swell of liberation for women, made me feel seen. This feeling of wanting the best for a group that I know, academically, is marginalized; but also never being completely sure if I am overstepping or being domineering is almost like a condition I feel I am chronically masking in order to not offend. it's like a limerence in a non-romantic way. Thank You for seeing me.

[@dragonfox2.058]

thank you Matthew. all we ask is that men listen to us. we aren't all crazy

[@matthewhines9787]

@@dragonfox2.058 Hell, even I ask more than that for women. It's not enough to just listen. Also, I never even intimated that women are crazy.

[@dragonfox2.058]

@@matthewhines9787 thank you..of course you didn't intimate that...many men do however think that we're all sorts of things we're not. And that stems from patriarchal propaganda whcih also hurts men

[@TheRunningLeopard]

As a trans-masc person, the last two section of this video really hit my cord. I've never had a positive male figure (father or not), and if I as a non-cis man have struggled with it, I can't imagine the struggle of people who are raised to be "manly men" who repress their emotions.

[@trenae77]

I didn’t have a perfect father, but I had one who tried in his own way, and raised a son (my brother) who views marriage as a partner and an equal.

[@kristinapaxton9686]

People point to past empires like the Romans as the ideal - citing examples that citizens didn't need to work etc....they forget they may not have had to work because they had slaves.

[@Soilfood365]

The idea that Alexander the Great and all his assembled armies worked on the drunken whims of one persuasive lady does have amusing echoes of Lysistrata...

[@lesliemoiseauthor]

I'm in awe of your masterful understanding of historical context, and how clearly you relate the past to the present.

[@CinziaDuBois]

thank you lovely Leslie!

[@lesliemoiseauthor]

@@CinziaDuBois You're very welcome. You're great!

[@Matt_The_Hugenot]

It's difficult for me to get beyond the words disgusting individual and, unfortunately, man, when thinking about Tate so I appreciate your creating a positive video starting with him. Hopefully it will help contribute to a more rational discourse.

[@phuckU3621]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@writethroughtheheart]

What an unexpected and brilliant topic! I love that you mention that we need to also bring men up with us. To leave them aimless with their old paradigm destroyed helps no one.

[@IncandescentLightbulb00]

You make a very important point at the end. We absolutely cannot allow for this “us” vs “them” rhetoric. It is scary to think that there are people out there that think like Andrew Tate and agree with him. It’s scary to think that young men who lack direction find this kind of awfulness appealing. But if we don’t approach this with compassion and understanding then I really fear that there is a huge threat of regression. I can see that young men are struggling to find the right places that feel welcoming yet don’t peddle this anti-women sentiments, however they do exist. I work in a very male dominated field and I have many male friends and I wish that more of the guys who think that women are just “good for one thing” understood that actually the most rewarding relationship that you can have with anyone is the one when you can talk about things that interest you without thinking about whether the other person will eventually sleep with you.

[@morgannyan2738]

you can thank feminism for the us vs them mentalitiy thats the scary part

[@JoseRamirez-vb1sk]

My opinion is that both a patriarchy and a matriarchy can be equally opressive. But I got no ideas on what would be an alternative to both.

[@LeoOwnsWwe]

As a Muslim, I found his pathetic little stunt of 'joining' Islam to try and clean his image a total disgrace. He's a sad little man who will hopefully rot for eternity in a Romanian prison.

[@cad5017]

I’m not religious, but yes, Andrew Tate is definitely an insult to not only religion but an insult of men / the human race as well.

[@Elvertaw]

Really enjoyed the video. I’ve never thought of the emancipation of men on that level. Your right. We do need a new script for men but I’m afraid that script may be a long time coming because some men seem to be too scared to change the narrative. 😥

[@timothyhopper4956]

I only first heard of Tate a few weeks ago, and much as I immediately didn't like him, I was still truly shocked by the recent revelations of his (alleged) crimes. How the hell did someone like that ever have a public profile for months or years without those things ever coming to light?

[@RussellTurner]

Because they are so clearly fabricated.

[@youtherthyfproduction5005]

Bribes. He said him self that he constatly bribes the police and specifically moved to romania because it is easier to bribe the police there + harder for women(a.k.a his victims) to get help

[@RussellTurner]

@@youtherthyfproduction5005 No he didn’t. He said that every country in the world is corrupt to a certain extent. In Romania though bribery is more accessible to poor people and not just the rich like in The West.

[@lizjolly5454]

@@RussellTurner Why are you even here?

[@RussellTurner]

@@lizjolly5454 Errrr, because I am a subscriber to the channel. Is that ok with you or not?

[@noodletribunal9793]

i felt so heard in the male malaise bit and onward. man it just dont feel good for a lot of us. it would be nice to know that someone cared. it really is so tiring.

[@cramerfloro5936]

You translating "εταίρα" as "cool girl" is so based! Have you ever thought about making a video on hetairai in general or on a particular one, like Rhodopis/Dorica?

[@CinziaDuBois]

sorry I’m afraid I can’t take credit for that at all. I said “call girl” 😅 I’m not based at all

[@sebdhaese]

@@CinziaDuBois lmao, I thought you were saying "cool girl" as well. Your lovely accent makes people hear things that aren't there, I guess. 🤣

[@Dloin]

Of course the Lady of the Library rips the "I hate Books" Dude to shreds :D very well done.

[@scooteroz5337]

It's refreshing to see a nuanced take on what is such a complex issue. It's not an us versus them issue, men and women are all in this together.

[@clwho4652]

These people keep looking at the past, wanting to go back to that past. But that past led to the present, the problems of the past lead to the problems of the today. Women went into the work place because they wanted more opportunities, but women also needed to. Stagnating wages meant that families couldn't survive as they had been, on a single income. Today this means if a woman _or man_ who want to be a stay at home parent cant afford to they need two incomes to survive. When women entered the work force they faced opposition harassment, opposition and harassment they are still facing to this day which is what led to the Me Too movement. Conservative culture puts a greater emphases on masculinity, they are also more anti-intellectual, not valuing and sometimes looking down on knowledge and education. We live in a world where education is becoming more necessary even for work that didn't need it in the past. Those raised in anti-intellectual communities and or families didn't get the education they needed, this holds them back, reduces their potential income and increases theirs and societies problems. Through out all of this, the old rich white men who run congress, the senate, and the corporations are benefiting from this. They don't value the employee, the customers, or the people, they value the shareholder, the executive, and wealth. They benefit from racism, sexism, transphobia, anti-intellectualism, nativism, and nostalgia. They use these to distract people from the real problems and their causes (them), to create scapegoats for problems, and to keep people from seeing them as what thy are, the real problem in the modern world. People like this Andrew Tate are nothing more but their pathetic pawns.

[@marcuswalters8093]

Wow, Tate's Matrix spiel is a perfect example of selling half of the truth. He's exactly right about the society/reality we live in. No wonder it appeals so much to men. It's ~half~ true. I should point out that the rest of his beliefs are complete and utter drivel and I do not support this utterly trash man in any way.

[@sweetrolldealer]

Honestly, society makes wanting to live off-grid look very tempting

[@coronin8587]

I really just don't understand what happened to the idea that we, as a species, should (not choose, but just simply do) treat one another with the equality and respect due unto them.

[@barlow949]

This is the last channel I expected to talk about Tate, and yet it is the one I appreciate the most

[@jameswarden2691]

I love the part where you discussed men working off a different script in a time when the script has changed. Does anyone have recommendations for influencers who are getting it right but are also popular? I'd love to see examples who can reach that teen to young adult demographic without sacrificing the message.

[@chaoticreckless]

It's not really his focus at all, but the youtuber Ordinary Things mentioned Tate in his 2022 recap and said "Andrew Tate sells money, lust and power, but my dad would tell you that's just surface level sh*t, real men go after success, love, and responsibility. I know the difference seems subtle, but it's important, work hard, learn to take responsibility for your actions and make sure the people around you know how you feel about them. That is what being a man is all about"

[@estellerobicheau852]

Check out the speach prof.

[@wildcatste]

My recs don’t focus only on masculinity but they cover it often and even have a few videos as the focus. And they don’t just talk about what’s toxic but what a healthy and whole masculinity can look like: FD signifier, cinema therapy, cold crash pictures, T1J, pop culture detective, and the speech prof. Also Trevor Noah has a video reflecting on/ discussing men and intimacy that I think is great.

[@l.s.d.5863]

@@chaoticreckless I have mixed feelings about that kind of message. Sure, it's definitely a more positive take on masculinity than what's offered to young men by people like Tate (though admittedly, it'd take some kind of interdimensional limbo champion to get under that bar), but I think the underlying implications of that kind of gender division can still be lowkey insidious. In a way, it suggests that those things, such as hard work and personal responsibility, are the province of men. I appreciate the aim for genuinely admirable and healthy qualities, and in general I do think OT is probably a much more positive role model than a lot of the options out there, especially no doubt for the flood of fans that came from Internet Historian, whose audience base sadly tends on the misogynistic and socially/emotionally immature side. However, ideally I think it best for men, and for everyone, that rather than ascribing a new social script to men specifically in the form of some masculine ideal, no matter how well intended or conscientiously crafted, that everyone, regardless of gender, is guided not to be a great man or a great woman, but a great person. That upholding principles of responsibility, honesty, courage, humility, hard work, etc., is not and should not be a gender-specific pursuit. It's just being a decent human. Period. And we should all try to.

[@l.s.d.5863]

@@wildcatste All good recommendations. I'd add to that Danny Gonzalez and the Green Brothers, neither of whom specifically cover gender issues, but who generally put forth principles and display behavior that I think sets a very positive example.

[@FanaticalJ1]

Brilliant work! The necessary work of transforming traditional views of masculinity is key. Thank you for calling us all to this work (from a man getting on in years...).

[@darthfiende1]

Thank you for this. It's so refreshing to see a woman address misogyny without resorting to misandry.

[@MrAaroncissell]

If that was a thought process then Bravo. Well put together and informative. Thanks

[@CinziaDuBois]

Much appreciated!

[@noodletribunal9793]

i care very much about the damage people like tate do to the world and i want to stress that this is far from a "white male" thing. the 3 young men in my life with the misfortune of falling into this man's step are black or hispanic. i worry that relegating this to a "straight white male" problem comes off as like a strawman and makes it harder for people to take seriously. though there is probably something to it with race since all 3 of these acquaintances are very race focused in different ways. idk you gotta be superficial and think in over generalized terms to believe in misogyny in the first place. not far from racism at all

[@BookishTexan]

I think this is great and I agree that we need to create a new paradigm for masculinity. I don’t think that it is the responsibility of women to do that though of course their leadership and ideas are essential. I think it is the fault of men (including me) who know that Tate & Conare peddling misogyny and toxic masculinity to offer alternate, positive views.

[@Jack-zf3rz]

His cultists I try to challenge them on getting a trade and getting into construction. Too me the typical "real mans" job is in construction or manual labor. That's not to say women shouldn't be getting into construction as well. I just don't see any of his cultists actually getting into traditional Masculine careers. They all seem to want to get into the internet influencer of his line of business.

[@mariaquiet6211]

Or just toss the gender thing out and let people be.

[@hyperboliccancers3269]

@@mariaquiet6211 They would not change much as you think. A "genderless society" would fuel these people to no end.

[@heiskanbuscadordelaverdad8709]

I think the term toxic masculinity doesn't help because it feels like an insult and that not only makes men more angry but also prevents them investigating about it thus perpetuating the ignorance

[@BookishTexan]

@@heiskanbuscadordelaverdad8709 So what you are saying is that men are so fragile that we have to be careful not to associate anything negative with masculinity because if we do they will react childishly and refuse to examine negative things that men do that make things bad for women....

[@sophiaisabelle01]

We look forward to more insightful content from you. Keep up the good work.

[@winterburden]

Thank you so much Cinzia, let's hope that sometime in the future all these misogynists can be relegated to ancient history!

[@Jack-zf3rz]

I honestly love how they claim to be "alphas" and "real men" and have never swung a hammer in their lives.

[@trollymctrollface]

What does swinging a hammer have to do with sex or gender or social status?

[@Jack-zf3rz]

@@daviga1 yes and no. I also mean it literally. They've never done the jobs they claim only men can do. I'm proud of being a man myself. I also treat others with respect, I'm always willing to listen to opposite sex, I try to push for more women in tbe trades, and I've actually worked hard manual labor since 12 years old. I'm hard like a man should be, but soft hearted and caring as well. But I raised by my grandfather who had strong work ethics and was very progressive in his way of thinking. I like to think of myself of a hybrid between old school and new school ways of thinking.

[@trollymctrollface]

@@Jack-zf3rz "hard like a man should be," seems like an ableist sentiment- at best, tbh

[@Jack-zf3rz]

@@daviga1 oh absolutely, the hardest workers on site are often women lol. My first journeyman was a woman. She worked harder then most men I know lol.

[@bruvsss]

Uhm patriarcy doesn't care about us and a matriarchy won't be any better either

[@jamielondon6436]

Powerful statement at the end! Yes, we can only do this together.

[@dicorockhimself]

I mean when you where mentioning the things that Romain empire I always remember the fact they drank from led cups...lol

[@ains2904]

andrew tates views on women are so outdated that he needs a *HISTORIAN* to understand them.

[@Wee_Catalyst]

😂😂😂 Brilliant

[@jonathancunningham8739]

@@Wee_Catalyst True Brilliant.

[@cramerfloro5936]

I’m glad for your conclusion analysis on the necessity of creating a new model of masculinity. If certain issues are recognised and confronted by ignorant monsters like Tate, who don’t understand how to solve them except for "going back", we’re never gonna get over them.

[@jtl-en4yx]

Society (not "women") is what got men into this state, and I am not going to conform to whatever society's requirements for "new masculinity" are because it will be all about control. I am going to pursue a career and the things which make me happy, and if I do not get married so be it! I wish she had discussed the issues like divorce which disproportionally effect men. This is a big reason why many men are rejecting commitment and relationships altogether.

[@bluester7177]

Divorce disproportionate affects men because more often than not, women have more responsabilities in marriage, there are statistics, marriage give more living years for men and less for women, women deal with having to take care of children, work and do house chores most of the time, also, men cheat slightly more, so women ask for divorce more often than men and I'm not saying women are perfect angels. I think this is a gender role issue that if addressed probably would lessen this scenario.

[@rojiblanco299]

@@bluester7177 Married women live longer than single women

[@TheEdmond30]

.....when you eat both pills and just get high...

[@kieleleron85768]

what a great message you are right that men seem to be left behind when it comes to this new world of equality that we are trying to create. The idea that we need to write a new script for men is absolutely essential and I appreciate that this is the conclusion that you came to rather than the more misanthropic suck it up version that is often heard online

[@cmm5542]

I wish somebody would realize that it's not about past vs present but right vs wrong. I am so tired of people arguing that things are wrong because they're 'outdated'. Being 'old' has nothing to do with whether it's right. There have been plenty of societies with healthy views on men and women in the past; there are plenty of NEW views that our oppressive. The answer isn't to tell men 'discard all past conceptions of masculinity and invent a new one', but 'choose the good versions of masculinity to emulate regardless of what time period they are from, not the bad ones.' And the same for women. It's not rocket science really, and it's also not really historical.

[@bishopbling4115]

Was the late Roman Empire as feminist as these people claim? I'm pretty sure Roman society was still patriarchal at that time.

[@dragonfox2.058]

not it wasn't at all. I've studied history for a long time..people lied about each other back then the same as they do now

[@GrungeGalactica]

The thing is I don’t know how us women can help these men, especially if they think we’re the enemy and not worth even listening to. If women have progressed by taking ownership pf our lives through education and progressing their careers and wealth; (like men have been doing this entire time) surely men need to adopt more of what’s been working for women this whole time, being better at dealing with emotions in a healthy way and busting down their own walls of their restrictive masculinity box. But it seems a lot of men prefer the comfort of living within these walls and burying harm it causes them. If het women no longer rely on men to be providers, they need to be better in other ways like bridging the emotional labour gap. I’m so glad women (in the west at least) have more autonomy now, but I’d love to see men work on their own short comings and step up too. Nothing can change if they just dig their heels in. If any men watching this have reasonable suggestions of small things us women can do to help, be my guest.

[@staraptorflock3661]

I think more men would feel better if they were objectified more. Men tend to value more physical experiences like winning a game or obtaining or creating machine. As a result men are tempted to praise woman for having the ideal physical form however women don't seem to value that as much they seem to prefer more social experiences so what is a compliment for men is not a compliment for women.

[@morgannyan2738]

my suggestion is for women is to leave the supposed toxic society men have built and create their own

[@staraptorflock3661]

@@morgannyan2738 And how would this woman society reproduce and have children to continue itself?

[@morgannyan2738]

@@staraptorflock3661 thats for them to figure out

[@bluester7177]

@@staraptorflock3661 I don't think that would help, I've seen so many men who have body issues like dismorphia that I don't think that's the way to go, I think you meant not necessarily objectification but more like complements, appreciation, telling them they look good.

[@dgetzin]

it isn't Cleopatra's fault that Marc Antony was an idiot. Julius Caesar seemed to get along quite well with her.

[@BarkleyBCooltimes]

Getting drunk and burning down a city? Greeks surely know how to party.

[@thegrumpygeordie9007]

I'm currently suffering by having to research this knob jockey for my own video. Its stressing me. I have to ask though that about 25:15 you say that the average woman's wage is higher than the average mans? I only ask because of gender pay gap arguments I've witnessed. I myself have been the lower earner in several relationships without a dent in my pride. Your account of history in fascinating and I enjoyed it. You don't have to go very far back to find the 'Its not my fault' mob but I didn't know it was specifically women that were getting the blame. I had heard something about transsexualism towards the end of the Roman empire being accused but have made no effort to prove or disprove this.

[@leftcoaster67]

Maybe we should set him up with Bear Ears, what a dynamic duo that would make!

[@Strider_Shinryu]

Wonderful video as always. I have to say, though, that what I enjoyed most was the bit at the end. There are some really powerful statements there that I feel should be the biggest takeaway from this discussion, and the biggest driver of discussion on the topic in the future. Rather than outright condemnation, some level of understanding and support.

[@joaofld]

I found your channel today and I find this subject very interesting. I also studied gender issues in my graduate school, but from a male perspective: how patriarchy affected father-son relationships. I studied this by looking at the relationship between characters in contemporary Brazilian novels that have this relationship at the center of their plot. I was very interested in the bibliography of your study. If you can share some reading recommendations, I would be very grateful.

[@susanfraase3750]

Read about Harry and king Charles

[@l.s.d.5863]

If you're unaware of it, you might find interest in Frederick the Great of Prussia, and his father. And perhaps Alexander the Great and his father, though there's far less detailed and reliable information to be had in the latter.

[@auroramacula]

você poderia compartilhar tua bibliografia? quais romances que focam neste relacionamento como tema central?

[@joaofld]

@@auroramacula OI, Aurora. Vou escrever em português e usar o google tradutor pra postar uma resposta em inglês. Na minha tese estudei 3 romances: O Filho Eterno, de Cristovão Tezza; Ribamar, de José Castello; e Galileia, de Ronaldo Correa de Brito. Mas, tb, acabei de ler Diário da Queda, de Michel Laub. Todos esses livros tratam da relação pai e filho. Hi, Aurora. I will write in Portuguese and use google translator to post an answer in English. In my thesis I studied 3 novels: O Filho Eterno, by Cristovão Tezza; Ribamar, by José Castello; and Galileia, by Ronaldo Correa de Brito. But, also, I just read Diary of the Fall, by Michel Laub. All these books deal with the father-son relationship.

[@chaoticreckless]

It's so nice to see someone treat the situation of young men in today's world with a level head. Normally I just get either people telling me all women are just evil, which is ridiculous, or people making fun of men and saying we're all pathetic, it got so bad I started questioning if an actual human connection could be made or if every woman I meet would just be obsessed with hating me for how I was born (which has happened to me multiple times with girlfriends or female friends eventually showing how much they truly despise me) so this video restores a bit of my faith in humanity

[@l.s.d.5863]

I've never met a woman who fits the raving man-hater stereotype. Ever. Do they exist somewhere? Sure, yeah. Every type of person exists somewhere. But if every woman you know, including your own partners and friends, *hate you,* it's time to stop blaming ¨angry feminism¨ and look inward, friend. : P

[@chaoticreckless]

@@l.s.d.5863 I deleted my previous response because I didn't feel like explaining myself to a complete stranger, I understand what you're saying, and with the limited information I gave, it's a totally reasonable response, but suffice it to say it's much more complicated than that

[@cmm5542]

I hope you find the connection you are looking for, and good for you for not accepting unbalanced extremes that define one half or the other as one certain way. We're all individuals and need to connect as individuals! Wishing you all the best. 🙂

[@maewest68]

@@l.s.d.5863 if all the men start hating you, time to look inward, "friend".

[@LuisTheFilmHack]

At about 28:00 you mention how important it is for women to care about the well being of men. I think I fell in love with you when you said that! I've been thinking and saying that for years. Thank you for pointing this out Cinzia!

[@miller_niki1982]

Men also need to stop shaming men for having basic human emotions and acknowledge that anger is an emotion. Men need to let each other cry, grieve and geek out when they need to. Women want men to be happy and healthy; we don’t want men to be broken, unhappy and lonely. But men need to do the work to get there. I’m happy to walk the road with you and encourage you when the road gets hard, just don’t make me responsible for the map.

[@gilgameshkingofheroes5903]

@@miller_niki1982 In fact, men aren't the only ones who seem to forget how anger is an emotion. Everytime I hear women say they want their men to me more emotional it's only about sadness. And I mean ONLY sadness.

[@LuisTheFilmHack]

@@miller_niki1982 Please practice what you preach. Show some compassion to a man who's having a rough time.

[@miller_niki1982]

@@LuisTheFilmHack I’m so sorry you’re having a rough go of it, I genuinely am.

[@miller_niki1982]

@@gilgameshkingofheroes5903 Well, that’s not very helpful of those women. I’m not really interested in dating men, but I am raising two boys and I want them to be emotionally intelligent and open with how they’re feeling, be able to properly understand consent, and set healthy boundaries. I don’t shame or mock them for crying, showing joy when they’re happy or being angry. I explain my emotions when they are confused. (Mom’s not angry, she was just scared because she couldn’t find you and sometimes scared can look like mad.) I accept that my boys and all men are people and I want them to function like people who care about others and themselves.

[@leahlynch1578]

This is a fantastic message and supports the well being and rights of all people. Wonderful video! Keep reading :)

[@CinziaDuBois]

Thank you so much!

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

I have been a fan of yours for some time now. I am now even a bigger fan, for your wit and intelligence, your honesty and for your wisdom (fueled, as such nearly always is, by compassion).

[@Sammyandbobsdad]

But Mark Anthony was always a dolt, like before he met Cleopatra. Julius Caesar put him in charge of Italy while Caesar fought the civil war and Mark Anthony was completely incompetent. Blaming a smart woman for a man being stupid seems … well … sadly typical.

[@MagicMartin666]

Positive Comment to feed the beast.

[@alien6147]

The comment section being so imaginative💀☕️ Chill sisters or atleast watch whole podcasts instead of seeing watching tiktoks

[@Rosemont104]

How different our history would be if it weren't written, decided upon, and dictated by a bunch of old, bitter, suspicious men preoccupied by death.

[@bruvsss]

Won't be much different Power changes a person

[@susanfraase3750]

Klaus'Schwab, Gates, fauchi. Yeah I see your point..they don't want a future for us do they

[@l.s.d.5863]

@@bruvsss I don't think it does. I think it changes presentation. Power shows who we really were all along.

[@bruvsss]

@@l.s.d.5863 Yes that's what am i saying Power can bring everyone's true self Power changes minds

[@cmm5542]

Such as Elizabeth I and Victoria? Power has never been concentrated solely in the hands of men. More men than women, yes, but we've always had our input. I kept being shocked every time I read about a historical woman who 'was ahead of her time' until I finally realized that there was nothing 'ahead of the time' about strong, powerful, influential female figures. They may have an easier time and may be more of them now, but their ability to exist has not changed. We've always been there and we HAVE shaped history.

[@mayaflici374]

You're doing the lord's work here 💖

[@Just.a.person59]

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people - Eleanor Roosevelt

[@acegard7801]

Thank you for this perspective, it opened my eyes to make issues I've struggled to comprehend.

[@CinziaDuBois]

Glad it was helpful!

[@sue-anngouvea3464]

Your discussion at the end is such a good way to charactise things we need to understand better. The very impressed new subscriber

[@tetsubo57]

I wish the Men Going Their Own Way would just, go.

[@lebunnie]

Wonderful video, Cinzia! Thank you for speaking on this. I love the part at the end where you point out that it's the "old script for masculinity" (aka what we call "toxic masculinity") that is holding men back and not the new found rights for women. I've been thinking about this for years, and you've summed it up so eloquently!!

[@ac8123]

Unrelated to the video but I absolutely love your voice

[@CinziaDuBois]

aw thank you (:

[@phuckU3621]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 sure

[@thefrenchmode]

Very insightful and resourceful video as always

[@CinziaDuBois]

Glad you think so!

[@Boggythefroggy]

I’m going to just say this - there are a ton of people talking about a healthier masculinity not caged within conservative masculinity - and those people are feminists. I know a lot of people don’t know this for some reason but it’s out there, and not to mention queer, leftist and trans men talk a lot about this! I’ve watched countless videos of men going over how masculinity is a prison the way it is constructed and why it doesn’t need to be like this etc but it just doesn’t get picked up in the algorithm for some reason. I know FD Signifier’s videos discussing the manosphere got some traction I believe but I just wish people paid more attention.

[@yungguattari4924]

Tate's popularity is the embodiment of how misogyny is harmful to women by the means of hurting men themselves. Sidenote from a psycho-analytical perspective: Tate's idea of «manliness» can be summed up as a constant loop of a set of freudian slips because he objectively characterizes "what a man is" as the consolidation of a fractured ego. For example, this is why he will deny the existence of something like deppression as it is in this way that he can present a rationale where the very same representation of a mentally unhealthy person can be portrayed as a healthy way of being. This is factually the PEAK of parapraxes, a severe symptom of neurosis.

[@DrFatemahAlzubairi]

No wonder misogynists fear women. They won’t stand this rational argument from this clever lady!

[@SharmaBaap]

she did not make a single good point lmao

[@veryInteresting_]

We have a saying in Persian which roughly translates to "In the pond with no fish, frogs wear the crown". Andrew Tate is not receiving attention because of how elevated his views are, rather because there is no better role model to look up to. He just happened to show up. That's how low the bar is. Maybe there are better role models out there but for whatever reason they are not known. Such a role model must have the interests of the modern man in mind.

[@AliensAreNoobs]

I knew what I was going to find by sorting comments by newest, yet I did it anyway. And it was _still_ worse than I expected.

[@fr0stw0lf97]

What do you mean by that?

[@Madachu1]

Amazing how instead of bashing Tate fans you breakdown their psychological insecurities.

[@Paradoxical_96]

As a straight, white man I am of the opinion that this man should be stripped of his platform and tried for hate crimes. This is a prime example of what happens when "free speech" is abused. People like this make me sick, and it's very cathartic to see someone call him out. Keep up the wonderful work Lady of the Library, your videos are always delightful.

[@maheenm.k1015]

Oh hun, he is being tried for a looot more than sex crimes. He is being tried for human trafficking and succh offenses.

[@macb6528]

this was a very good video. you have a very nuanced take

[@CinziaDuBois]

I appreciate that!

[@phuckU3621]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@LisaBeergutHolst]

313 AD: Rome adopts Christianity 476 AD: Rome collapses Coincidence? 🤔

[@cmm5542]

The entire empire, east and west, adopted Christianity. The Western side fell under attacks from outside and political corruption within. The Eastern side, which held the exact same religion, lasted for nearly another millennia as the Byzantine Empire - but who continued to refer to themselves as the 'Roman Empire' which they technically still were. Coincidence?

[@inkandesk]

Fascinating how he describes the flaws of capitalism and then proceeds to talk about capitalist propaganda that you can “pull yourself up from your bootstraps”

[@jonathancarvalho399]

As someone who lives in Luton learning that Tate is from Luton is so unsurprising as everyone in this town is so bad educated people with no respect or manners

[@299meena]

I was just talking to my uncle about this yesterday and he sighed and said, "He's just a western version of the Taliban, I wonder how people don't see that!"

[@MandeepSingh007]

well said

[@jamielondon6436]

Apt.

[@earthalchemyholisticllc333]

The Taliban saw that. That's why they are trying to help him. Free Tate the Taliban want him. Lol

[@susanfraase3750]

Harry better watch out when he's released lol 😆😆😂😂

[@SlvtSammichArchive]

Excellent video, as somebody who is very passionate about feminism, sociology and history, this was a wonderful blend. Would be keen on more retrospective analysis of modernity through the lens of history in the same vein.

[@seamusb9012]

Amazing video. It's hard hearing the arguments defending Tate. A lot of them claim he has done great work for young men and the heinous stuff is just trolling. They name a few legit problems but they refuse to look at actual solutions (like proper emotional support for boys as they mature). They just continue to scapegoat marginalised groups. This video is a good example that we have been doing that for centuries.

[@theeNappy]

Redpill "philosophy" is especially bizarre to me as it's clearly a critique of modern capitalist alienation but instead of taking the Marxist approach of blaming the results of capitalism on capitalists they instead redirect their vitriol onto a conspiracy of women or minorities or the lgbt community or even socialists (who are usually not even in power). It's like they take a critique of the modern status-quo from a left-wing perspective but then perscribe an extreemly right-wing solution to it. I wonder if there's any historic parallels which could be drawn between this recent phenomenon and other radical right-wing movements in, say, the early to mid 20th century?

[@dukeofdenver]

Horseshoe theory wins again

[@douniamessaoudi]

You are so articulate and engaging it's inspiring! Thank you for your wonderful content

[@CinziaDuBois]

You are so welcome!

[@cosmicpolitan]

Does Tate know that he’s based his whole “philosophy” on a paradigm written by two trans sisters?

[@CowMaster9001]

If anyone knows how much it sucks to be a man in _current year_ , it's two people who decided they would be happier if they made themselves not men. Go look up "Transmaxxing"

[@morgannyan2738]

where they trans when they made the matrix? also this implies that men are better women than women lol

[@bluester7177]

@@morgannyan2738 yes, they were trans when they made the matrix, they were just not out as trans at the time of the first movie yet.

[@kmcg959]

This was a fantastic video, thank you. I'm a teacher and we're dealing with a number of teenage boys who are influenced by Tate et al. It's incredibly difficult to know how to handle it and, honestly, not to be angry when they're spouting sexist rhetoric, especially when I've also got plenty of girls and LGBTQ+ students in the same room. All we can do is try and educate about why this philosophy is flawed but it is immensely difficult. I wish there was an easy answer. At least now I feel somewhat fore-armed with some historical facts to combat the misinformation!

[@marrymejohn]

Just out of curiosity how popular is Tate amongst teen boys? I am a 30 y.o. man and really the extent to which young men are being radicalized is a bit of a question mark for me. Like I get that grifters like Tate and Peterson exist but have no idea the extent of penetration.

[@kmcg959]

@Bish_Bosch Honestly, I've been a little bit surprised by how pervasive it is. There's been a lot of media hype, as there ever is with teenage fads, but we have definitely been dealing with quite a few boys who seem to be buying in to the rhetoric. For context, I work in quite a small rural secondary, so we probably don't see the numbers that other schools might, and it isn't like every other child is on the turn, but definitely a notable change - I've only personally dealt with one in my lessons but he was quite vocal and insistent about it. It wasn't pleasant! I know of at least half a dozen other incidents of varying levels thst colleagues have dealt with, and this is all just since Christmas (we've been back a week and a half!) On the flip side, there are plenty of kids - more than those who support it by a long shot - who mock Tate and openly disparage his views, so that's positive!

[@Gayoinion]

Tate’s philosophy at 6:15 sounds like some anti capitalist speech. Didn’t know he was a fellow comrade

[@CowMaster9001]

It's the same "blame other people for your problems" spiel that many have used throughout history. From the Nazis, Marxists, and BLM. Only the scapegoat has changed.

[@chamberv5261]

Yes until he solely blamed it on taxes. The thing with these guys is that they are sooo close to the truth but they take it and blame it on women, political parties they don't like, random teen activists etc. So crazy, right?

[@l.s.d.5863]

I see a lot of people in the comments saying how great this video is for addressing and validating men's issues as part of gender equality and overall societal welfare, but as an implication that that's something wholly undone by feminist commentators. I don't think it's particularly uncommon, and I find the implication a bit insidious. Actually, the phenomenon can be quite aggravating in its prevalence. Not that women/feminists are considering men's issues as part of the critical balance of the wellbeing and equity of all, in and of itself. Objectively, that's absolutely the right way to go about approaching and dissecting gender issues. But the fact that in my experience, it has been so consistently one-sided in such a drastic way. That every time someone tries to make a case specifically about men's issues, it becomes an unabashed demonization of women, and almost every time I watch a video of or get into a discussion with someone making a case for women's issues, they at the very least include brief disarming and inclusive disclaimers about how men's issues are legitimate and important too, and often intermingled with women's issues in such a way that all need to be addressed together, if not making men's issues one of the primary pillars of the case they're making, such as in this video. Logically, or perhaps more accurately morally, I know this is right. But every time I see it, part of me gets a little more bitter in my respect for women. That they can be treated so abominably in return, and continue to show such a measured and sympathetic consideration for those who do it, a consideration that it's hard not to assume will be for naught. It touches on veins of the standard on women to put other's needs first, and that on men to do the opposite. Regardless of what I believe to be moral, much less logical or productive, emotionally it's difficult to reconcile something that may be ¨objectively¨ right, but roots in something objectively wrong.

[@TheZoeBig]

Tate also says that societies *need* to be patriarchal because patriarchies are competitive and win against other societies (especially if they’re more matriarchal). By extension, as the West becomes less patriarchal and therefore less competitive, we will lose to other patriarchies.

[@edwardturner5075]

I'm actually looking forward to this video. never thought that I would utter those words when Andrew Tate in the title😂

[@dreamsofhoya]

Such a refreshing perspective. Love it! Newer subscriber and thoroughly enjoying your content thus far :) Keep up the amazing work!

[@CinziaDuBois]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@Gojirosan]

Exceptional video. Thank you, Cinzia, this was important x

[@Estarfigam]

As a straight white male, I have never heard of Mr. Tate, sounds disgusting so far. As a Germanic decent American, I take offense that he thinks my ancient brethren did nothing during the fall of the Roman empire. Thank you for mentioning the Goths and Vandals. Sometimes ideas of the past should remain there. Racism, Sexism Slavery etc. I decided to share some of my Role Models. Teddy Roosevelt, Russel M. Nelson, my own father, Nick Offerman, and Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. All of these men act for the sake of others, In TR's case sometimes he is wrong, but he was willing to put his money where his mouth was.

[@AlbertaGeek]

_"the Goths and Vandals"_ Not to be confused with Martha and the Vandellas.

[@livfaferek6231]

Not only American women fight right now for their rights. Abortion in Poland was banned already two years ago but I guess we arent as important.

[@QuantomX64]

Based Poland

[@CaptainSpork7]

The opportunistic nature of toxic influencers to swoop in on a vulnerable community - in this case, men and boys affected by the Great Malaise - is very common amongst extremist groups. During the last recession, the American Neo Nazi Party recruited heavily in the rust belt states because a lot of working class whites lost jobs in heavy industry. The Islamic State’s propaganda seeped into low income areas of big British cities. Even self help gurus prey upon those who feel lost in their lives. It’s a familiar tactic and, if you may come from a low income/ low education background and already in a bad mind-space, it might not take much convincing to be sold a line of flawed logic.

[@4ngelvenom]

It’s funny the Tate fanboys arguments can be so easily broken down, they never interview women who they’re truly intimidated by

[@theghostofsabertache9049]

Whilst I agree with some of tates points and disagree with others. I could no longer take him seriously in any capacity when he said reading books is a waste of time.

[@anthonyholton2886]

Well said, and thank you.

[@alanritchie7850]

Andrew Tate is a great example of willful historical illiteracy. Any honest reading of history reveals how women and their actions were ultimately shaped by the patriarchal norms of their societies. Some women submitted to those norms, some worked within their societal restrictions to improve their status or wealth, and others actively tried to resist the norms placed on them. Women's history is one of the most fascinating parts of human history and unfortunately one of the most ignored. Ignorance of this history allows misogynists to reduce women to a monolithic Lilith caricature that simultaneously must be dominated by men while also to doing all the labor to make boys into men.