Circle of the Sea Druid: DnD 2024 Player's Handbook

[@zaladar1]

This video is exactly why I am a Patreon of Treantmonk. Other content creators often end up with one of two conclusions: "something sucks hard" or "something is super overpowered". Treantmonks video are so nuanced. Keel up the good work! I happened to have watched both the videos you refer to, before you posted this. I was very frustrated when watching those videos. Thank you for putting this out and nuancing the perspective of the DND community.

[@tmzFRM]

Not only that: sometimes it seems like there are only a handful of people on the D&D community that want the game to improve and for people to enjoy it.

[@MisterCynic18]

Yeah, this is probably the only D&D KZbinr I can tolerate. Everyone else either rambles on too long about nothing or expouses bias takes as self-evident fact

[@Sepiriel]

To be fair, this is nothing new for Pack Tactics, his content is based around bad faith arguments for click bait and views. If you remember the latest Video regarding the UA artificer where Treant talks about how you should not bring Loops to the table, well thats Pack Tactics, he is the guy who brings PCs built around Loops and declares this is the ONLY reason why this class/subclass is worth anything at all and will argue the DM about why its not fair to not let him play his chessed out munchkin PC.

[@SimplyThinking677]

@@Sepirielyou don’t actually watch pack tactics do you

[@dragoknight589]

I expect it’s algorithmic Darwinism; polarized takes get way more traction, and are thus incentivized. Eventually it may even become subconscious reflex. All the more reason why Chris is the GOAT, of course.

[@quintec45]

Circle of the Sea most importantly is cohesive. Almost every feature fits the theme and the build design.

[@juliamedina3322]

Well, one of the physical properties of water is being cohesive, so I guess it makes sense. 🤭

[@pederw4900]

I just kind of wish that this subclass leaned more into the storm side. Omitting the Storm sorcerer and the Tempest cleric from the book makes this the only storm focused subclass, and it’s full of features that lean into oceans in a way I don’t personally relate to. That’s my only real critique of the subclass

[@Dragoryu3000]

If anything, I think it's almost too cohesive. Tying everything but the spell list and the swim speed to one feature makes it feel a little one-note to me... but then again, this is a full caster, so class features are by no means the end of the story.

[@captaindred342]

​@Dragoryu3000 it's a flat half note to someone who already has a swim speed from their species or an uncommon low level item.

[@Clayjar444]

CONGRATULATIONS ON 100.000 SUBS! An achievement long due! And a happy new year!

[@PlayWatch_616]

Personally i think you get hold monster because the ocean is full of unnatural monsters like krakens or aberrations and your role as a protector of nature is partially to fight those, so hold monster is a good spell

[@Thatposer444]

You can also easily flavor the spell as those monsters’ tentacles wrapping around your enemy!

[@drewbachand1326]

Thank you for saying this. I was thinking this feature perfectly fit the classical theme of seas & monsters too.

[@gabrielcross1062]

My idea too

[@mojin7470]

Exactly and no matter what interpretation youre using, theres tons of good possible thematic explanations that make sense for this subclass anyway...

[@shadow-faye]

That could be said about every druid

[@xdecatron2985]

Treantmonk finished his months-long exploration of “base damage,” then Stone Cold’s his way back into other KZbinr’s conversations. Love it!

[@Kiyomoto657]

Now I can’t help but imagine the sound of glass breaking in the middle of another creators video rant.

[@waywardspiral416]

This reminds me of when the community was giving Order of Scribes wizard a really hard time, and I was still very new to DnD and was confused by all the hate for this new subclass that seemed really thematic and cool to me, and not weak at all. Treantmonk did a thorough breakdown of the subclass kind of like this and not only assuaged my worries but pointed out positives I hadn't even considered. He is such a gem in this community. I always love watching these videos and learning from them!!!

[@harrylynch4224]

He did the same for Trickery Cleric too

[@aidenf.4900]

This is why whenever I'm told something sucks or is super OP my response is always "I'll wait for the Treantmonk video."

[@SortKaffe]

Ditto

[@jwraper1498]

Exactly! lol!

[@erikrey378]

Treantmonk is the way

[@chaddeshaw5068]

Have to say, the math never lies

[@mcphadenmike]

I wish I could consult Treantmonk videos about everything else in my life, too.

[@DM-Timothy]

As a creator who considered putting out a video on why I didn’t like Circle of the Sea, I’m stoked to have my opinion changed in this video. I still don’t much care for how the Druid feels like it needs to chase people down while pushing them away, it feels counter-intuitive? But the Conjure combo seems to answer that nicely and thinking further it doesn’t seem any different than the martials using Push, which is a great mastery. I was wrong, and you have convinced me. Thank you! :)

[@NexGenRogue]

In my experience, this subclass's style is not as counterintuitive in play once you try out the various play patterns. Its a disrupter / harasser type of build, which lends it to feel much more unique compared to the Classic Tank/Damage/Support triad people slot into. When Attacking aggressively, you do need to get close but as a caster you have decent range so at most you may want to get near one enemy at a time while still hitting others. Wrath of the Sea becomes insurance for if that one creature didn't get pushed by Thunderwave for example. If they ignore you, you're still a capable blaster and moderately beefy. If they attack you you're splitting their focus, now you can do what this subclass is elite at, kiting enemies. Your attacks are great for keeping many enemies conveniently out of reach without a dash, and allowing you to operate like a "taunt" tank, but with Conjure Woodland Beings You are way more punishing to chase. Its a challenging style to get used to at first, but the versatility is incredible once you get used too it.

[@DM-Timothy]

@@NexGenRogue Very cool. Thank you for sharing your first hand experience. I gotta admit, I'm curious to try it myself now... Or talk one of my players into it, since I'm always DMing :D

[@NexGenRogue]

@@DM-Timothy As a fellow DM, maybe their next encounter may Conveniently include some storm-themed enemies. lol Its a really solid subclass, like the Tempest Cleric but trading some Nova Damage and support spells for Consistent damage and debuff / control spells of Druids.

[@noahmehringer29]

You can also use half-plate and a shield for a base AC of 17 that can go up to 19 if you invest a little in DEX. I see the chasing enemies down as kinda bullying them, push them down, they get up, push them down again. With a high WIS you can feasibly be knocking enemies around all the time.

[@insanekirby1]

Even disregarding the storm flavor, the flight is on theme because it’s like swimming. You now have 3D movement as if you’re always underwater.

[@nyanbrox5418]

Swimming through clouds and mist

[@xdecatron2985]

@@nyanbrox5418I’m just picturing Tails in Sonic 3 when he glitches and uses his swim animation while flying. Lol

[@pallen2645]

I always pictured the sea druid flight as a pillar of water lifting him up into the air.

[@gregorysheridan2015]

@@pallen2645 hell yeah.

[@joshuaguzman6211]

Or like catch the rainbow where you run on the rain

[@KyotoChronicler]

This is one of my favorite types of content that you do - entering the community discussion and lending fact to reactionary emotion. The best was with Silvery Barbs, talking about how to actually read it but then discussion how it fits with balance. People were losing their minds about it but you brought calm nuance to the discussion. This is another great example although not nearly as dramatic as the Silvery Barbs scare of 2021.

[@DevinHandleyy]

Part 2 of me saying the same thing! IF you’re allowed to craft in your game, and can pick what you want in particular, Broom of flying now makes you attune to it. So getting flight at level 10 makes me pretty happy to switch out so I can attune to something else. I value being able to attune to something else very highly so can’t see where that could ever be a bad feature. Overall I love sea Druid!!!

[@apjapki]

Great point

[@elementzero3379]

I was frustrated by those videos. I couldn't even finish either of them. I'm glad to see you offer an alternative opinion with your usual level of detail.

[@grantstratton2239]

I saw one of them. That was the last of a long line of questionable takes that eventually lead me to unsubscribe.

[@elementzero3379]

@grantstratton2239 I still follow one of the channels, but unsubscribed to the other. I'm all for alternative views, but I just wasn't getting value out of the time spent watching. The vids were too long with too little substance.

[@bakuiel1901]

Yeah I couldn't sit through them either, too many bad takes.

[@EpicRandomness555]

I don’t watch Pack Tactics because he complains too much and I didn’t finish the Insight Check video either

[@uriniumintestor7302]

Yeah, pack tactics is basically useless. A lot of stupid complaints, a lot of attempts to exploit broken shit, etc. Nothing you watch there will fly at the table. Wasted time.

[@balanceseeker]

Re: Wrath of the Sea - By the standards used to critique this feature, weapon attacks are also all-or-nothing and thus we shouldn't be looking to use our bonus action for weapon strikes.

[@levianderson4439]

I think the criticism is that enemies usually have a high CON save, and there’s less ways to boost it vs adding to hit

[@grantgarbour]

​@levianderson4439 I would understand this critique if I wasn't asking my DM to make a con save every turn in combat with my 20 WIS Sea Druid. Sure sometimes the enemies con saves are good but druids are barely using their bonus actions for much else. Enemies are going to fail it's just the nature of the game and some mobs in boss fights are definitely gonna fail so thats a bonus action to 5d6 wipe them off the map in my experience

[@nm2358]

I mean, consume a resource system V infinite attack swings; that's like comparing Sneak Attack to Divine Smite, Divine Smite (& variants) are competing with a resourceless pool of damage die, and should have edge on it because of that (though, it kinda doesn't, it at least gets better saves than just Con).

[@paulwillauer8843]

@@nm2358honestly it compares even better than sneak attack vs smite. Sneak attack requires highly specific circumstances to even use, and smite is finite and paladins want bonus action for other things often. So both have issues but a Druid is not really meant to bonus action attack. Here, the Druid has nothing better to do with bonus action so I cannot really see the issue other than “my power fantasy omega god character not Uber powerful enough”. I mean it is flavorful, has combative value, and doesn’t conflict with your other abilities. What more could they possibly want???

[@carsonrush3352]

Personally, I thought the emanation would have been fine if it was just a bit bigger. 10' at level 3, 15' at level 6, and 20' at level 10 is perfect in my mind. That would have boosted this subclass right into A-Tier for me. Right now it's a B+ and I think it's just fine.

[@InsightCheck]

I admit my curiosity got the better of me and I subscribed to your Patreon to see this video. Overall I think you did a wonderful job addressing the points we laid out. My only small comments would be as follows: 1) I think Circle Spells is a great feature. My statement about Hold Monster was a genuine not understanding, not like a “this makes no sense”. The notion of freezing is awesome, love it. 2) I fully understand that if you average out the zeroes from the 3d6 damage from WotS it deals an average amount of damage. The point I was making is that zeroes are still going to feel bad and potentially dissuade a player from wanting to use their core subclass feature. It’s all or nothing because on the turn you use it, it does damage, or it doesn’t. 3) I had to check my script to confirm but I definitely didn’t say it conflicts with CWB or CME. I mentioned Shillelagh but that’s only because they both consume a Bonus Action. Kinda sad I didn’t get to see the original but overall I think this is a truly excellent response to at least my video :) Wonderful work as always.

[@finnstokes2814]

Regarding your 2nd point; I agree that all-or-nothing effects can dissuade players from using them however, I don’t think it applies here since there is no opportunity cost. When it fails, all you will lose is your bonus action, (which you probably weren’t using anyway) with the rest of your turn going as normal.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

1) Glad to hear we agree it's a great feature. I had to rewatch what you said about the spell list, you said some other subclasses are more generous than 11 known spells with 7 already on the druid spell list. As I ask in this video, which subclasses are you referring to? 2) To me, an all or nothing feature either works, or does nothing. Not of the many times you use it sometimes it works and sometimes it does nothing. 3) I may have misquoted you, my notes say "Says feature tells you to go into melee, but you have no good options. Says CWB is not made better combined with WotS". Rewatching that portion of the video, that's pretty close to what you said, which I would contest the same way I did in this video, the spell and ability are complimentary. I think you said something else conflicts and I got them switched in my head.

[@JLandroid]

@@InsightCheck I really enjoy your content! Mostly find myself agreeing with you, but this was a case where I was confused. While you are of course correct that WotS is all or nothing each turn, I agree with TM that it feels like a poor characterization. In your video it sounds like you're saying *the feature* is all or nothing, not just one of the many attacks it grants you. Sea druid video aside, I think your content is great, and hope your channel keeps growing!

[@mystopian]

@@JLandroidwell said and likewise.

[@InsightCheck]

⁠@@TreantmonksTempleI can provide some additional clarity! 1) this was me not being as clear as I should have been. One of those things where in your own head it feels so obvious but clearly isn’t haha. My intention with “some are more generous, some are less…” was not related to Druids specifically or having 7/11. It was (poorly) attempting to say that some subclasses will give you a higher proportion of spells you don’t already know, some give you less. In my video, I specifically said it was not a bad thing that it’s giving you spells you already know since having them always prepared is a really big deal, I just said it was worth noting. 2) I guess this is just a differing of opinion lol. I don’t think there are any features in the game that you only ever get one opportunity to use and that’s it. As a result, to me, an “all or nothing” feature has to be decided at time of use. In the case of a damaging feature: It either does some damage or it does no damage. I understand your point that you are not spending a resource each turn for it, it was just the same initial one but that doesn’t change it for me. If I had a zero resource bonus action damage effect that did damage or didn’t then, it doesn’t matter that it costs no resource to activate, it’s still “all or nothing”. I’m not running damage calculations or simulations and I’m not pretending to either. This is just more of an experiential one. 3) I think there’s an important distinction between “conflicting” and “not made better by”. The crux of my statement in the video was that competing Bonus Actions are competing. I even specifically said that CWB and CME do work well, just that it’s not “made better by”. That’s not conflict. That being said you certainly do raise a good point that it might even be made better by it so I’ll gladly take the L on that but I will stand by my original point that I don’t think they conflict and never said that they did. The goal of my video was not to say “the subclass sucks”. To me it still just feels… messy? I dunno it’s hard to put into words. To me it’s just not a question of the math it’s more much about how it feels and it just feels off to me. I’m not saying I’m “right”, it’s not important to me to be “right”. I just like talking about make believe and sharing my thoughts. I suppose sometimes I do better than other times. You live, you learn. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk lol :)

[@Swimavidly]

I'm playing a Circle of the Sea druid (lvl 5) in a campaign right now. First, I agree with every point you brought up. Circle of the Sea is a great subclass (compared to the other druid subclasses). I will say that from level 3 to level 5, the Wrath of the Sea feature is incongruous with a spell casting druid who isn't built for melee. The 5 ft emanation is too short of a range to use Wrath of the Sea offensively. However, at level 6 the emanation's size increases, which means you can sprint in, use Wrath of the Sea from behind the front line, and then sprint out. Longstrider helps with this strategy. And Wrath of the Sea is great defensively at all levels. If an enemy gets within melee range, then you can use your bonus action to blast them backwards. If it works, great; now you can move away, and you still have your action. If it doesn't work, bummer, but you're no worse off than before, and you still have your action to disengage.

[@nyanbrox5418]

This was a problem in the playtest cause it only triggered at the end of your turn, so the trap was that it convinced you to end your turn in melee when you would otherwise take the disengage action to retreat They addressed that, it's perfect now

[@aria4909]

@@nyanbrox5418I would argue the opposite, keeping my bonus action free is much better so I can shillaleagh next turn(all melee druids have this spell). This doesn’t even include the fact that the better option is to witch bolt. For the same resource cost you can deal more dmg and gain adv using your familiar while also maintaining a safe distance.

[@sadomsa__8365]

@@aria4909 witch bolt and find familiar are not druid options.

[@aria4909]

@ Incorrect, look at the primal companion feature and tell me Druids can’t get find familiar. Also any class can get a lvl 1 from the wizard spell list with just a background.

[@nyanbrox5418]

@aria4909 and the sage background gives wisdom and constitution, as well as magic initiate (wizard) so as a druid you don't lose anything with this feat

[@Zixor_]

People often forget that the distance between your character and the enemy isn't entirely up to you. "This character should never be in melee range" yeah, well the monsters might disagree with that notion. The 15 foot push from Wrath of the Sea is especially nice as a way to break grapples and get a free disengage if your CotS druid isn't built to be in a melee brawl.

[@louismankolevite1215]

One thought if you want to help the level 6 feature is to allow the emanation to do cold, thunder or lightning damage when you use it. Doesn't do more damage but does allow you to get around some resists since elemental adept wouldn't work.

[@apjapki]

I wish elemental adept just already included damage types caused by class features.

[@owhwaodwa6210]

You could also have each damage type target a different save (i.e. dexterity for lightning, strength for thunder). Oh, and have the swim speed feature add movement if you already have a swim speed.

[@TedTed-xh1ys]

There's also the simple fact that the feature doesn’t force you into melee at all. It can simply be used as a defensive feature, and a very good one at that. Or perhaps most appropriately, defensive sometimes and offensive sometimes.

[@TedTed-xh1ys]

Or take magic initiate wizard for shield and suddenly you have a very melee capable Druid for the early levels when spells are quite weak, then you can swap more caster/defensive later. It's a super versatile ability with no major build around needs. It just works.

[@robrockstar9648]

Fun fact, goblins will avoid melee with you when the first one that tries gets turned in a projectile.

[@noahmehringer29]

Best defense is a good offense

[@3y3g00]

Superior Canadian insight into cold

[@drewbachand1326]

You did it! 100k subs, well done. Thank you for taking the time with your single target damage series. It is a huge aid and a masterclass, a real reason to keep coming back to the Temple Chris. PS - really enjoyed this years collabs with other creators. It is fun to get to hear YOU play. Happy 2025 man!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

You too!

[@jellewijckmans4836]

Arguments like "X shouldn't be in melee" kind of ignore the simple fact they you don't have control over somebody going into melee with you. If you are some kind of back line caster things should be trying to get into melee with you so having a mostly otherwise unused bonus action to punish them for trying while also getting of them off you is in fact a big deal.

[@burgernthemomrailer]

Okay, but you really do. Just get a mount.

[@robrockstar9648]

As a spell caster my primary goal of melee happens is to get away. Launching an enemy 15 away suits me perfectly

[@NicholasAlberts1]

Hold Monster: A giant phantasmal squid comes out of the ground and grapples the target. Gale force winds envelope the monster, pinning it in place. So much opportunity for fun descriptions with spells, you can theme them however you like :D

[@zenith110]

I can't believe I didn't think of the funny possibility of pushing with BA and then pushing again with Thunderwave - which is really entertaining to consider

[@bobbobby475]

Especially because there's a lot more ways to engage in pushing mechanics with one d&d

[@caosisaac]

Or pulling in with thorn whip just to push them away again. Turn your enemies into a living yo-yo for the low low price of a cantrip and wildshape.

[@robrockstar9648]

Turn melee combatants into ammunition to launch at other melee combatants….. or just launch them over ledges.

[@JohnThurner]

The argument that getting Water Breathing as a Druid bonus spell instead of a class feature is bad ignores the fact that Water Breathing is a Ritual spell that can effect ten creatures at once. It's a fantastic spell for a Druid to always have prepared (assuming you're playing a campaign that involves being underwater).

[@fullmetalpoitato5190]

Thank you Chris, you certainly helped me come around a bit on this subclass. Not because I thought it was bad, but more so because when I look at Land Druid I'm just WOWED by all the spells.

[@robmongar7933]

Hey Chris! Love it. I had so many of these thoughts when I watched Insight Check's video, i'm glad someone has done a responce. I think you nailed it, i forgot that water breathing was a ritual, thanks for reminding me! Its a great subclass, it can go on the list of things i want to play (but will never get a chance to) now!

[@Notsogoodguitarguy]

I think the only real problem with Wrath of the Storm is that it's a Con Save, since that is (or was in the 2014 MM) the strongest save of the monsters on average. Not every monster, but most of them. However, we gotta wait and see for the 2024 (or I guess 2025) MM, since they might have toned down the saves. We already saw a stat block of a legendary monster - the Adult? Green Dragon, and it had lost the bonkers Con Save it had compared to 2014. Basically, it had only the Con Mod, without proficiency, and the mod wasn't huge. So it might not be a huge problem for the feature to be Save or Suck Con save. We gotta see the Monster Manual. Also, I think when the other creators said "Wrath of the Sea conflicts with Conjure Woodland Beings", they might mean that WotS MIGHT push an enemy away, but Conjure Woodland Beings gives you a 100% effective disengage as a BA. And if you use WotS and it doesn't work, then you're stuck in melee with a potentially dangerous monster.

[@paulwillauer8843]

I mean sure but also, it is a defensive feature. Sea Druid is meant to be a spellcaster not a melee front liner. This to me is a last resort defense not something you are meant to put yourself in danger to use. Con save is not the best, but honestly using it on something like a dragon seems pointless as anything but a panic button since they have reach, ranged breath attack, and are usually to big anyways since they are huge+ a lot of the time. Again, it is defensive and can be used for free once wild shaped, it is not meant to be super powerful.

[@Notsogoodguitarguy]

@@paulwillauer8843 I don't think it's a defensive feature, really. If it was, it would work in a different way, at least that's what I think. Also, if it's really meant to be a defensive feature and a feature of last resort, then it really sucks, because why would you give someone a feature they're not supposed to use unless they're in a dire situation. And, also, if the situation is so dire, then you wouldn't use this feature, you'd use Misty Step, or just good ol' disengage. Or cast Conjure Woodland Beings, do damage and still disengage. This doesn't make any sense. It very much fails as a defensive feature.

[@guardiantree8879]

@@paulwillauer8843If it was meant primarily as a defensive option then it’d be usable as a reaction as well. I don’t think he was saying he’d use it on a dragon, just that the majority of creatures in the old manual had good con saves. Under the old rules I’d say expecting it to work half the time would be too optimistic.

[@paulwillauer8843]

@ fair enough. Defensive probably wasn’t the best fit but I just don’t think it was meant to encourage melee fighting. The spell thunder step does damage but it doesn’t mean a wizard should enter melee just to cast it. Hellish rebuke is good damage for a 1st level spell and fiend warlock got it for free but again I don’t see people rushing into melee just for it. It is a bonus thing to use that does damage, is flavorful and thematic for the class, has viable uses in combat, and doesn’t contrast with anything else the Druid is trying, and pushes people away from you so you can escape without disengage or opportunity attack. What more can people ask for?

[@guardiantree8879]

@@paulwillauer8843for it to be a strength or Dex save instead lol. In fairness the new 2024 mm might not have as good of con saves.

[@floofzykitty5072]

It's important to note the significance of having important utility spells prepared. Water Breathing is not an "optimal" spell to have prepared, but you will definitely be kicking yourself when you need it and you don't have it. Water Breathing in particular is a ritual spell that lasts 24 hours, so the whole party will always have water breathing since you can just cast it every morning or night for free. It is objectively better than just having the ability to breathe in water as a class feature. Control Water is another spell that is very powerful (especially in naval combat) but it has very niche use cases. You will rarely have it prepared for that awesome Control Water moment unless you religiously use one of your preparations on it.

[@Tausami]

Thank you I felt like I was going crazy

[@raphaelventurivasen1929]

LOL when you said "storms are up there ☝️"! I love your content 😍

[@pcz2093]

Spot on, thank you. I wanted to try this subclass since it appeared. And now I want it even more!

[@gregevans4126]

Thanks for doing this Treantmonk! I have been wanting to play this subclass. I thought it was good. Also hear you confirm it makes me even more excited about playing it!

[@friday8531]

Congrats on getting 100k! Stoked you did it before the new year. I think this was a good way to express a different opinion to other creators', and made me excited about the new subclass!

[@craigsilvey2557]

One of the things I love about Treantmonk is he explains most of reasons why something is good/bad or why he ranks things higher than others. I don't always agree with his reasons (different tables = different values) but knowing WHY he rates as he does helps me evaluate it for myself. Keep up the good work and kudos on the 100K goal.

[@Matanlimer]

26:50 Even as a very permissive DM, i really hate how some content creators seem to operate under the assumption that such permissiveness is to be expected all the time. Like you said, it really tramples over the GM's authority, and creates false expectations and unhealthy enviroments.

[@xolotltolox]

Probably because RAW is the best way to actually talk about the game, because GMs can always say no. Hell a lot of new DMs think rogue is overpowered and nerf the class, despite it sucking hard

[@luka2784]

@@xolotltoloxTheirs a big difference between assuming that something in the players handbook will be available to players (like rogues) or assuming that everything in the dmg, clearly intended to be used by DMs (as explicitly stated by the designers) is free for unrestricted player use.

[@xolotltolox]

@luka2784 Well, but it is also just lazy design to just give you completely imbalanced systems and say "DM handles it lol"

[@luka2784]

@@xolotltolox I mean the whole of the DMG is basically giving DM's tools to use as and when they choose beyond the normal rules in the PHB. The basic rules don't let players craft magic items, but the DMG is saying that if you want players to be able to craft magic items, here are some rules you can use. While i'm certain that the rules could be better, I think it would be very hard to have a balanced magic item crafting system with anywhere near as broad scope of magic items that dnd has unless you designed the system around that.

[@xolotltolox]

@luka2784 It would start with actually giving a damn about properly balancing magic items in their own tiers. And pathfinder 2e manages it perfectly well, so either it is laziness or a skill issue on wotc's part

[@jonathanbodewadt6548]

Concerning Water Breathing as a spell vs as a class feature: You can make the argument that the class feature is advantageous because it cannot easily be dispelled in a critical situation. I have seen that happen in game.

[@elliotbryant3459]

and good luck recasting it under water with its verbal component

[@avvyrude7603]

I'm so glad to get a summary of the points made in the Pack Tactics video without having to actually watch one of his videos.

[@apjapki]

Ditto

[@SoulsNThings]

Lmao

[@joeyfish5]

Yeah when they did a thing together I started watching his videos for a year or so but eventually I just couldn't deal with the voice and vibes and unsubscribed

[@avvyrude7603]

I'm sure he's a fine guy or whatever, but his grating voice combined with even more grating bagpipes creates an auditory assault that I just can't deal with. On top of that, he just comes off as the sort of "The rules don't say I can't" power gamer that I'd never want to share a table with, so I don't find most of his advice useful. Still, I'm gearing up to play a sea druid in an upcoming campaign and had been under the impression it was good, so I was curious as to what his complaints were.

[@mojin7470]

Yep 100% agreed, that guy sucks at analysis of anything😂

[@FrostHunter17]

Thank you for the comprehensive breakdown. Always appreciated to see an in depth analysis to better understand features. Congrats on 100k, well deserved!

[@dnddetective]

I assume the reason they think druids shouldn't be in melee is all their concentration spells.

[@anthonydavid3348]

One quick response to Water Breathing vs an Amphibious class feature: a big reason you may want the latter is in case Dispel Magic and Co is at play. If your DM decides that the ocean boss you’re fighting knows how to shut Water Breathing down, the spell becomes a more fragile safety net than an innate non-spell source. (Though if you find an Antimagic Field in the twilight zone you’re in trouble regardless.) That being said, thank you for the positive take! I always appreciate some optimism when it comes to this stuff.

[@elliotbryant3459]

Yeah, especially considering water breathing has a verbal component. Party is probably screwed if they are down too deep

[@caosisaac]

On the positive side though being able to give your whole party water breathing is much more beneficial than just breathing yourself.

[@dozencatfish1667]

Perhaps it's the kind of campaigns I play, but this scenario isn't nearly likely enough to be classed as a big downside. Also if a DM dispels your water breathing at the bottom of the ocean, then rules that verbal components don't work underwater, they might as well just say they don't want to play anymore.

[@admizr5416]

I totally agree with all your points here, I watched one of the videos you alluded to in the thumbnail, I also haven't seen Pack Tactics video yet, but I remember him speaking positively about the fathomless warlock whose primary ability is a weaker bonus action attack(basically ray of frost w/ less damage) than this one and I also agree the fathomless warlock is a fine subclass. the water breathing criticism is kinda weird cause it would have been completely superfluous w/ the water breathing spell and then people would have been complaining about redundant features. But I also think Circle of the Sea is overall middle of the road it doesn't really enhance anything the base druid does well already.

[@cherry_buzzsaw]

My vision of Hold monster in circle spell list is oceanic deep pressure. Druid magically get target an effect that it could feel deep at the bottom of sea or ocean. Where pressure is soooo high that target barely can't move. It's terrifying. Aaaand it's also cold down below:)

[@talscorner3696]

"[...] that's why fly." Oh, the *shade* in that smirk xD I don't usually follow your videos because I'm not the kind of player that you make videos for, but I must tip my hat to you for this one ^^

[@twi1ightknight]

I feel like some creators set their baseline as conjure minor elementals or thief with unlimited item creation and anything less is 'bad'

[@CivilWarMan]

I've mentioned in other videos about Circle of the Sea that I think it would be getting a much more positive reception if it were attached to a more martial class. Imagine if that spell list and Wrath of the Sea and its upgrades, instead of being part of Circle of the Sea Druid, were part of, say, a hypothetical Oath of Storms Paladin.

[@adambielen8996]

If this was on Barbarian people would be so hyped.

[@generalsci3831]

I have a player in my group that's running a strange multi-class - The party is only lvl 6 but he's running a druid/cleric/monk character. So far, his only subclass is the Druid and it's Circle of the Sea. So far, his Wrath of the Sea feature (despite the lvl 3 feature in a tier 2 environment) has been surprising and effective.

[@Itomon]

you're right this is strange

[@ryanrindler1715]

I do think "circle of storms" makes more sense for this subclass, but I realize they wanted to contrast Circle of the Land in their four quadrant naming scheme

[@William-s2o]

As someone who lives next to the ocean in the North Atlantic region the idea of storms and the ocean are pretty synonymous.

[@marcellopz50]

@@William-s2osure but there are storms far from the ocean as well, I feel like naming it circle of Sea makes people think it’s only good for aquatic environments but that’s not true at all. If it was Circle of storms people wouldn’t get that idea.

[@NexGenRogue]

Congrats on the 100k Chris! Merry Christmas and another great video.

[@binolombardi]

6:00 Ive noticed over the years that there are features that sometimes don’t make sense the first tIme I read them. If Im aware enough in the moment, I’ll try to challenge myself to try and make it make sense.

[@dcyphermanplays8233]

you know there's a reason I watch your channel instead of.... " other channels" and this is one of them. thank you for this video. I would play this subclass

[@mattdahm4289]

Thanks Treantmonk! ❤

[@RTSK-be2pm]

Having also watched both videos with similar disagreements, man this was cathartic to watch. Can always trust Treantmonk to come in with level-headed takes, congrats on the well deserved 100K.

[@VrikoLaka]

Congrats at 100k! I don't play D&D anymore, but you are the only D&D content creator that I still watch occasionally, even though I don't engage with this game anymore (i watch mainly to still follow somewhat how is it going). I like how you approach things, honestly! So Keep it Up! 💜

[@totakekeslider3835]

I watched those two videos before, and even saw your comments below for one of them. They both had me discouraged about a subclass I've always wanted in the game. This video made me really excited again to try it out. Thank you!

[@1john48]

Chris, Your comparison between WoTS and CoS seems… strange. The range of Crown of Stars is 120’: you can hit enemy casters with the missiles and might even break their concentration. 1. What is the range of WoTS? 2. Which is more likely: that a caster gets advantage to hit, or that this Druid imposes disadvantage on its opponents’ con saves? 3. Which is more likely: that the Druid rolls a hit without advantage, or that the opponent fails a con saves without disadvantage? 4. Which distance would a Druid without the benefit of temp HP and without any subclass help with concentration generally prefer to be from his foes: 10’ or 120’? 5. Which will crit the Druid’s foes more often: CoS or WoTS? 6. Is Crown of Stars a good seventh level spell?

[@derekmadson7477]

Spot on analysis, awesome job!!

[@juanrached4523]

Merry christmas and im eating well this week! Im finding a lot of druids videos and it's my fave class xD

[@ramiromurga4832]

Temple of the SPICE! Congrats on the 100k subs! Been following you from the PF1E guides on the SRD. Glad to see how far you've come :D

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thank you!

[@thegloatingstorm8323]

I would even compare wrath of the sea to the telekinetic feat for the purposes of conjure woodland beings synergy

[@SCOMish42]

Great video! I think it was a well thought out presentation of the subclass and its merits.

[@Darmblaster1]

I used to watch one of these channels, but it's the negativity that drove me away. Like in WoW it seems that demonising the Game Creator appears to be the norm. I don't get that. Thank you Chris for your way of doing DnD Content.

[@partyontheobjective]

Right? Jeez, if you hate it so much, what are you doing here, yucking my yum? Oh, right, because negativity generates clicks. (To be fair, for WoW, demonising Blizzard was justified for a good long while, but not exactly because of what happened in the game, if you remember.)

[@xolotltolox]

​@@partyontheobjective people yuck your yum because they percieve your standards to be too low and that when people enjoy something bad, it means that more of that bad thing will get made And people refusing to play anything other than 5E is actively hurting the hobby

[@heliobarbosa3525]

Depends on the game creator. Demonizing Shadowdark creators or Matt Mercer would get a mob at your doorstep. Demonizing "almost literally demons" tho? That said, experience shows WotC bad is actually a good thing to default to as a rule, since 1/10 of their products are good (including MtG, and I would put PHB and DMG 2024 among them, which are the ones that really matter) but, having most 5e splat books, I feel like stealing bits and pieces of them, since even the prebuilt adventures require a lot of building and I'm old, might as well improv the whole thing. Blizzard bad. No asterisk, no explanation. Demonizing Blizzard would be offensive to demons. Corporate overlords are in all business, but on top of that they deliver shallow/bad experiences with lots of MTX, DRM and no offline mode/mod support. If D4 had an offline mode and mod support, it would be one of the best games ever since the community could fix it, Skyrim style (or improve it D2 Median style).

[@xolotltolox]

@heliobarbosa3525 tbh, i find it HARD to call the PHB and DMG good

[@mr.thurston7476]

I have three key problems w/ some optimizers. 1/ Much of their content relies upon abusive RAW. 2/ In a rush to get their videos up they sometimes misinterpret rules/spells/feats/etc. 3/ They tend to disregard our freedom to flavor (for example, Hold Person). You are my favorite optimizer because you make these mistakes much more rarely than others, and when you do you own it. Thanks for your contributions to the community, Chris.

[@JosiesRoses-l9r]

Most of those content creators aren't really optimizers, or at least they don't seem to actually care about the game they're presenting "optimizations" for, Pack Tactics especially doesn't seem to have even a basic understanding of the game systems, they just want to be popular and seen as clever without actually having to learn anything.

[@DaDavid1193]

My SIL was pumped to roll up her Sea Druid after the book came out and I was so bummed to see those same two videos. We aren't exactly power gamers at my table, but I didn't want her to have a weak characters with bad options. Thematically, she loved the idea of the unique use of Wild Shape, and I thought it sounded plenty strong for someone not interested in actually wild shaping much. Glad to see it was at least a bit reactionary on their part.

[@daloypolizei]

i cant wait for treantmonk's first sea druid build

[@user-wm3hu7lo1g]

11:25 missed opportunity to bring in the cute Mexican "why not both" taco girl

[@richardboyd1790]

I feel like some times the loudest take gets picked up by content creators who just parrot the sentiment with out thinking on it themselves. I love the comprehensive analysis I get with Treantmonks Temple.

[@demnix6210]

This is why I love treantmonk vids. I even enjoy the odd vids from the other creators too, but if you want some of that premium nuanced takes, ain't no substitute than Chris.

[@BenSmith-oq8pj]

A very nuanced and clear analysis of this subclass, thank you Chris!

[@amyloriley]

Argument for level 6 Aquatic Affinity: it enables skirmishing tactics, or at least makes them better. If an enemy is trouble to your party, walk up to them at up to half your speed, use Wrath of the Sea to push them away, and then walk back to your original position. You could do this already at level 3, but it's dangerous if the spell fails. But at level 6, you can walk to the position 10 ft. away from them and push them from there. If the spell fails and the enemy isn't pushed, you can still safely retreat without taking an opportunity attack, as you've never set a foot in their reach. Of course, you can push them in the direction you want just by moving to the opposite direction. That can be a tactic too. Now... Wrath of the Sea + Spike Growth.

[@DUBC_OG_610]

CONGRATULATIONS CHRIS! 100K bout time! Nobody is more knowledgeable and informative on D&D. I enjoy many dnd channels but when I’m looking for objectivity I come here.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thanks! I was hoping for 100k before the end of this year, so I'm really happy to have met that goal.

[@joshuasmith9061]

Great video and I agree that IC's video did make some ridiculous points, and he was flamed in the comments for it, but PT's video did have a few points that hold some water. 1. While the Wrath of the Sea does better damage then he stated it still uses a con save which as the campaign goes on becomes one of the worst saves and would cause many to use it just for the flight at later levels. 2. Since it forces you into melee the lack of con saves hurt your spellcasting since the best druid spells use concentration, and no extra attack lowers your chances to hit. Add on how bare bones the melee spell options are here. Outside of WotS it's subpar in melee. 3. I do agree the thing he said about the flight was silly, but you left out his reasoning which based on the RAW that you can go prone with hover. As someone who played Spores Druid the Sea Druid is still a huge step up in power comparatively. I would feel the need to start 1 level in fighter for con saves and pick a weapon with the push property (warhammer then pike at 6th) and start with magic initiate with true strike.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

"hold some water" - NICE

[@nickbrown638]

The tempest domain flight example is also such a bad example as a better feature than the sea druid one, because you get this feature at 17th level when the sea druid is getting this 7 levels earlier.

[@Adurnis]

I think the conflict between Conjure Woodland Beings and Wrath of the Sea is that CWB gives you a BA Disengage that you obviously can’t use with the emanation.

[@tantalus_complex]

That's fair in part, but Wrath offers additional damage in exchange and will sometimes _negate the need to Disengage in the first place._ And if you know you really need to Disengage, the option is still very much there.

[@druxusthemage9806]

It kinda does also if you.push them 10 feet you can move anyways

[@xolotltolox]

​@@tantalus_complex Disengage action is barely even an option tbh

[@tantalus_complex]

@@xolotltolox A Druid is one of the classes more likely to want to preserve their concentration, even if it means occasionally taking the Disengage action. Some spells are absolutely worth it (especially in some encounters), and _Wrath of the Sea_ keeps your concentration free to be focusing on any one of those.

[@philurbaniak1811]

👍👍 subclass looks great, strong flavour and utility!

[@oshermdaddy2058]

I actually do like this subclass a lot. Although from my experience I do think the relatively short range is a fair concern to have for the wrath of the sea.

[@emulationemperor8924]

I figured hold monster would manifest like water prison jutsu from Naruto

[@PanSak01]

I agree 100%. Also Congratulations for the 100k subs!. I've been around from the ancient times when they were under 5k. Thanks for everything!

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thanks to you as well!

[@lucasramey6427]

My personal gripes is that wrath of the sea doesn't seem like it'd be a con save beyond it potentially dealing cold damage like with a shove effect you'd think it'd be a str or dex save probably more likely dex because it's save or suck so you can easily explain it by it being surges of heavy sea spray that shove people around and they could try and dodge out of the way, beyond that my other main gripe with it is that it incentivizes pushing into melee when you're a full caster with a vast amount of concentration spells

[@cheisserer3548]

You drop so much level-headed info with D&D content. Excellent work, man.

[@cheisserer3548]

(ALSO CONGRATS ON 100k!!!)

[@Kiwipai]

Oof, one of the other creators is taking this personally, but at least they're going through and editing some of their more inflammatory comment replies after cooling off, but it's still sad to see something like a DnD subclass discussion turn into insults and accusations. You'll all have the opportunity to defend Sea Druid to anyone you're playing with directly, so I suggest not arguing with the youtuber, they've made it clear they're not changing position, and more importantly, it's not gonna realistically matter in any significant way for you or your games. Remember that DnD is for everyone, everyone ✌

[@Sleepyrunner]

Strongly agree with all this. Saw those other videos and thought they were way off mark. I still wish water breathing was a class ability AND they got the spell. But if I had to choose then having the spell is the way to go.

[@barbellboa]

I haven't watched your video yet, but I have been excited to hear your take. I've been frankly baffled by the reaction to what I consider to be a really well designed and interesting subclass. I don't think it's overpowered but I think it can be REALLY good.

[@barbellboa]

So I largely agree with you on this. I've been thinking Wrath of The Sea has been WOEFULLY underrated, and that 14th level feature is enough for me to not want to multi class out of druid (unless I was playing at a very high level). I do think the 10th level feature is maybe a tad underwhelming, but not bad! I think this is in my top 5 favourite subclasses of the new PHB, but I think people are just a bit let down due to how crazy it was in UA

[@Alassandros]

5:46 But the Wildheart Barbarian doesn't even get water breathing... like at any level. They get a swim speed, but not underwater breathing.

[@mikecarson7769]

nice to see another review like this video - keep up the good work!

[@MethodAMV]

I never understood the "all or nothing" "save or suck" complaint. Weapon attacks are "save or suck" its like, if i have a plus 5 and the enemy has a 20 AC. Do I just skip my turn cus its hard to hit him?

[@dominicpalladini7290]

Congratulations Treantmonk! You reach 100k! Let's go!

[@JaeymesDM]

Chris out here throwing heavyweight punches lmao

[@jordanmetcalf3383]

Chris went out of his way to not mention the two DnD content creators that he completely disagrees with. I’m gonna roll an insight check to see why he’d protect them. It appears Chris is trying to protect them because he’s classy. As classy as when Monsters of the Multiverse removed the kobold’s most notorious feature, which is the whole reason certain individuals picked that race. What a guy. Give that man another 100k subs!

[@bora7494]

Protect them and then put their video thumb nail into his video? What is that for a "protection"?

[@jordanmetcalf3383]

@ I honestly watched the whole video and didn’t see the thumbnails. I guess when I clicked it I missed the thumbnail. And throughout the video he intentionally avoided saying who said what. It’s still better than calling out names. People who watch their content would already know who he was talking about. And those who don’t, would have to go out of their way to look up the videos by title. But yeah, I missed the thumbnail.

[@bora7494]

@jordanmetcalf3383 What I am not impressed with is that he didn't reach out to those creators beforehand. They ate all commented and he not only shreds their content but also would have known why. He would have had a more informed opinion. Seeing their videos and his, both have valid points.

[@scientificostrich]

Another reason I thought that the criticism against Wrath of the Sea was silly is the fact that other druid subclass features consumer Wild Shape uses to activate a 10 minutes effect (for example, Starry Form, Wildfire Spirit, and Symbiotic Entity) so it's weird that these other videos call out this design as bad. If Wrath of the Sea design is bad, it implies that all these other b features are bad too because they complete with Wild Shape uses??? Crazy talk!

[@DeadmanwalkingXI]

As someone else notes, Broom of Flying is an Attunement item. Even if you actually can make them for your whole party, getting an extra Attunement slot and three Resistances is an amazing 10th level feature I'd be happy to receive. I am befuddled by the assumption that everyone will take the same three Attunement items even if you are very permissive with crafting, and Attunement includes a lot of the best items, so all the arguments about crafting seem really weird to me. First your DM may not allow it, second even if they do...what are people expecting that 'everyone has the same best three items' to be? Because there are way more than three good 'requires attunement' items in contention. Broom of Flying is on the list, sure, so are Winged Boots if you don't want to ride a broom everywhere, Stone of Good Luck, Cloak of Resistance, all the different stat-boosting items like Amulet of Health, Boots of Speed, Boots of Striding and Springing, Enspelled Armor, Enspelled Staff, Enspelled Weapon... And that's just a selection of what I consider the mechanically good Uncommon stuff that requires Attunement off the top of my head. I can't think of a single character I've ever played that wants only three of those, so different player priorities and styles alone will result in wildly different item load-outs. Assuming ' you can make brooms of flying so everyone will have one' is just wild under the circumstances.

[@unvoicedapollo3318]

Here I am "stuck" playing a wildfire druid & the 2014 chassis and loving my 1d6+pb damage (when the enemies aren't immune/resistant to fire damage 🤣). I would kill for #d6 equal to Wis mod emanation. And those spells are great spells. It seems a lot of creators discount the value of having freed up slots where your now auto-prepared spells go.

[@Transplantuwu]

Wrath of the sea is a damaging feature that barely does more damage. The utility of being able to mass teleport in cooldown is insane. You can even use your bonus action to have your spirit READY the teleport for when someone needs it. That does not compare to 4/5 d6. That's cantrip damage in tier 3 LOL

[@Autonym]

​@Transplantuwu Everyone _adores_ the Berserker barbarian for its additional 2d6 to 4d6 extra "cantrip-level" damage once per round. While the Wildfire spirit's teleport is a fantastic feature, damage is damage, and Wrath of the Sea does more damage to a single creature.

[@Transplantuwu]

@@Autonym that's because the berserkers are equipped to be melee damage dealers already and don't have access to cantrips or spells. Hope that helped lol.

[@Autonym]

@@Transplantuwu It did not, please tell me why you think druids are not equipped to stand close to melee

[@Transplantuwu]

@Autonym - they can only ever make one attack maybe two attacks without heavy investment and even then it's still not on par with martial damage dealers - no way to take damage without huge risk(concentration spells dropping is very bad) -lower hit die -no resistances - If you use a weapon and shield then raw you can't cast certain spells even with war caster. If you don't use a shield, your ac is probably a lot worse. If you don't have a weapon, you are stuck with cantrips which all have the range necessary not to be within melee -druids can't get out of grapples very well since they usually dump str, have no save proficiency, and have limited teleport options (freedom of movement is probably their best bet, but that's a precast) -most of the ways they can up their damage ruin their action economy because they take at least a round to prep

[@Justchadthanks]

I may have missed this being covered in another video, but is heroism and armor of Agathis combo as good as I think it is?

[@JaxWylds]

That's what we call a clean sweep. It's easier to make a mess than fix one. Thanks for putting in the energy.

[@CharlesChaldea]

I believe the list of always-prepared spells is there to prevent situations where the player does not have those spells prepared. Any spells on that list that were not selectable as a base Druid are bonuses thrown in, but the primary purpose is to ensure that you have a certain toolbox afforded to you, separate from the selections you made while creating the character. I feel that the mistake those two presenters made was misunderstanding this, instead thinking of it more in the vein of Magical Secrets, a feature whose purpose is to allow the player to procure spells from alternative spell lists. If the non-base-spell-list bonus spells weren't thrown in, I don't think they'd have made that mistake, since there would not have been that level of overlap, and thus, not much comparison.

[@HerrderGezeiten23]

I think the "BAD" comes from not going in melee idea. With the new druid (metal armor and shield no restriction) and the option to use it in wild shape, i think it works just fine. Can be in part becouse wild shape dosen`t give the enormous HP boosts as in 2014 in there eyes. The movement at level 10 is very good (Starry Form can only fly with Dragon Form and could turn Form every turn -> do that up in the air? ) If you stay at 60-120Feet wrath of the See at level 3 is "BAD"-> thats most likely why they liked the Crown of Stars with it`s 120Feet,... I think it depends on how you want to play the Druid -> how would you play a ranged See Druid? At range it starts more at level 10 with flight and resistance. (thats rater late)

[@ilikednd]

Congratulations on 100k 💯 🎉

[@Snockooz]

Another thing is wrath the sea says the target is pushed away from you. I'm not sure if there is anything in the rules that makes that only able to be in a horizontal line. If not, you could throw them vertically into the air and; if they dont have a fly or hover; they land taking another d6 damage and are knocked prone. That's a lot for a bonus action.

[@adambielen8996]

You would have to get under them somehow, but yes. I would have to imagine that this ability was written to take into account a 3d environment like underwater or flying.

[@malachimclean3638]

Yet another reason why TreantMonk is the only D&D optimization content I still consume. Everyone else is engagement farming

[@momomomocensoredbyyoutube9085]

"Skinner meme: Am I so out of touch? No, it's the other DnDtubers who are wrong"

[@garretttrue3478]

Oh snap! Congrats on 100k subs! I'm glad you got there. I asked all my friends to sub

[@TreantmonksTemple]

Thanks!