Clean Topology MYTH Explained

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➤linktr.ee/ryuurui

[@PonteRyuurui]

➤➤(FREE) Hard Surface Modeling For Beginners - www.blenderbros.com/jumpstart

[@user_xyz948]

Thanks man. I really enjoy your videos. It is very satisfying to see a video that actually provides you with the information you asked for. Great stuff.

[@najhonbanjon]

very good explained thank

[@idesign007d]

Thanks, ur the best guys 💪 Using box cutter and hard ops speed up modeling like 10x. I'm glad I found u guys 🎉

[@ChillieGaming]

Exactly what I had in my mind rn while I was sitting in the toilet And this video popped up in the right time. It's like you can read my mind 😂

[@Bugulab]

toilet is a good place for useful shit to come to mind lol😂 (and obviously useless shit come out from other place😂)

[@trinityx3o522]

Keep in mind that what he says might hold true for game assets or freelancing, but if you were to work in a VFX studio like Technicolor, DNEG, MPC & so on, you HAVE to work in subd workflow with proper & clean quad topology.

[@ChillieGaming]

@@trinityx3o522 bro what? no one is asking anything here lmao. Maybe go down the comment section and help the one who is actually asking this question

[@loopcuthero]

what a coincidence!!! THis video popped up on my youtube while I was in the toilet

[@nerdsarts9487]

thank you bro i love your videos helping me a lot

[@ianstubbington2334]

Fantastic video, sir ! I have worked in the games industry for a couple of decades, and we NEVER worry about making quads, the more important thing is reducing the poly count. Use Tri's where needed. I have been waiting years for someone with a voice to say this. Thank you.

[@rogaalik1379]

Thanks Ponte I really love your videos

[@PonteRyuurui]

cheers mate

[@DarkerCry]

I just want to add, in film and animation render engines (Octane, Vray, Renderman, etc) dynamically subdivide geometry based on the distance to the camera (so objects in the background are actually lower poly saving render time) and on top of that displacement is used for certain objects to add detail (so the better the flow the better the subd and the better the displacement). Another thing to keep in mind: part of "clean" topology is also seam placement, so if you have shit edge loops your seams will shift as a result causing texture stretching when subdividing. This is why Ngons can be dangerous in this kind of workflow, juniors will waste time for texture artists with back and forth because they didn't check their models over and the ngons cause stretching in unwanted places even if the surface is flat. Anyway, loved the video and 100% agree I just needed to share a film/vfx viewpoint to vent a bit lol

[@jendkerpgs7956]

Nice to CY. Thanks!

[@AleksandarPopovic]

So true bro, for banding, have special topology types, it's not just quad that needs it... a very nice video, keep going with destroying the mits, will be a very nice video, and quads topology are just one.

[@tjc7815]

Interesting video Ryu. Thanks for posting. It`s a topic that definitely can be very confusing for sure. (I seen two of my comments from the bb discord in the video. Haha. 😂Cool though. 😎)

[@arch.blender1178]

when you first used the sandwich analogy, I thought you said Hummer, near the end of the video I realised it was a hammer, made me smile :) Thank You for an excellent video

I use blender only to design 3d printable stuff, it would be plain stupid to get quads everywhere. Maybe a cad software would be better but for the price of blender(free) none of them are that capable.

[@criticalwokeracisttheory4645]

Except I actually know professional modelers, two of them work have worked for ILM. Clean quad topology is not "old way" at all. Creating concept art vs HS modeling in the real world are completely different. Do you believe that modelers for ILM or any other production studio are somehow using outdated modeling skills, techniques? What industry do you work in?

[@j_shelby_damnwird]

"Well, ackshually..." 🤓

[@user-wr5oe6jb7x]

Overall great video, you really helped me understand how i should model, however a bit too aggresive

[@PonteRyuurui]

just watch it next time hugging a teedy bear or something

[@waitcube698]

how dumb do you have to be to get offended over "deep voice"

[@StephenWebb1980]

I've had issues with Unity HDRP's lighting system and nGons on nondeformable hard surfaces. Switching the lighting model didn't work but after nGons were dealt with it was fine. I have noticed this generally occurs if the vertices of the nGon are not coplanar. Less so with quads, and least of all with triangles. Since Unity triangulates all faces, I thought nGons should be fine in these situations, but they were not. So as a rule I make sure that those nGons' vertices are coplanar. If Unity has to turn an nGon into a triangulated set of faces, it needs to determine how to connect the vertices, which means you have no control over how it does so, which is not good at all. Furthermore, if the scene's lighting is animated, it can introduce all sorts of artifacts [especially those pesky non-coplanar nGons] - and of course postprocessing effects can also be greatly affected.

[@StephenWebb1980]

I have created an example to illustrate this if anyone is interested...

[@StephenWebb1980]

The bottom line is that it is not a good practice to allow a game engine to create the geometry for you, because there is no telling what it will do. It could look perfectly fine in blender, but put it into a game engine and the geometry it creates is unpredictable. This isn't such a big deal if your geometry is quads because all quads are just two triangles, quads are closer to the final triangulated mesh so you have more control over the final geometry.

[@PonteRyuurui]

@@StephenWebb1980 that is why you triangulate the mesh in Blender before exporting mate

[@harrysanders818]

Thank god finally someone with a voice addresses this nonsense.

[@StephenWebb1980]

as long as certain rules are followed and you aren't letting another render engine complete the geometry for you...non-coplanar nGons are trouble [especially in game engines], non-coplanar quads or triangles are not really an issue though. Your non-planar nGon can look perfectly fine in blender, but take it into a game engine and the triangulated mesh will have all sorts of issues when light is reflected off its faces.

[@All2D-BaL]

Hey Ryuu, great video. Are there other good sources for hard surface stuff here on youtube besides you and Josh that you would recommend?

[@michaelbendavid777]

Arrimus3d old tutorials (he deleted most of them from KZbin not so recently)

[@blenderisms]

I'm going to just add - if you are working with other people using different software and there's a lot of exporting and importing of assets - stick with sub-div modeling meaning evenly spaced quads with support loops etc. Some models might transfer correctly, but every once in a while you will get a really unusable model and just cause a ton of work for the person you work with.

[@ysemone1101]

I think you are the Devon Larrat of Blender

[@popeopera]

Your salt is pretty amusing bruv…like the Jocko Willink of 3D.

[@giovannimontagnana6262]

Ponte is becoming a unit

[@aliakbarzade230]

Will you make a video on how to properly bake textures, for example baking Material works end result as textures. With addition of new wear features in MWs I feel a Tut is needed. Some of my bakes even though when both my target and source meshes seem to shade well get me bad normal bakes that you can tell is caused by some bad topo/ normals! I'm doing something wrong, IDK what.

[@LairdSquared]

Agree, everyone on the Internet thinks they know the right answer 😂 I mean, I'm going to say some stuff here which might be unpopular opinion. CAD apps don't care about polygon topology... True. But bringing those polygonised meshes straight into a game engine isn't particularly advisable, especially if you want to UV them. But, this goes back to your initial comment... Clean topology is topology which serves its purpose, and nothing more. That will always be true, no point doing something in subds if you're never going to require multiple LODs etc. But, sometimes other render engines, or game engines, do not triangulate an Ngon the same way as the host DCC app, so it's still better to clean it up and make sure it goes into Unreal or Unity with no problems and fix it yourself, properly.

[@PonteRyuurui]

ya agreed, you could push them considering we got nanites but texturing what cad spat out is a bit of a bastard

[@naxaribrutor6382]

I think what's being said here is purpose is paramount. I know this channel is primarily aimed at hard surface game assets but just for information, If you're a VFX artist working at a studio then it has to be built in a non-destructive manner, clean and subd friendly, otherwise it can't proceed through the pipeline and be picked up by riggers, animators, fx....

[@karans3481]

Fact! I'm not sure but I've seen multiple vfx breakdown videos where the models and characters always quads and clean af. What Ponte said might be for game assets I guess.. pls correct me if I m wrong

[@naxaribrutor6382]

Game assets, industrial design and 3d concepting artists don't need to be too worried about ngons and subd friendly assets as long as things work in rigging, shading and UVs are clean, upright and to the right scale to assist with detailed texturing - I'm talking hard surface here. People who want to get into the vfx industry need to put their best foot forward, which is why you see clean topology and quads in demo reels.@@karans3481

[@PonteRyuurui]

try watching the vid in full wihtout skipping, both of you, then you:ll know what I actually said

[@naxaribrutor6382]

This workflow is suitable not only for game assets but 3d concepting and Industrial design - as mentioned. In VFX, you need to put your best foot forward and show clean, quad'ed and subd friendly in your reel.@@karans3481

[@criticalwokeracisttheory4645]

Static objects that will never leave the concept state don't need clean quad topology. But rarely if ever does the modeler have a choice of where or what that model will be used for. Concept art without any clean sub-d quads isn't hard surface modeling at least not in the sense that a VFX studio would want. The concept part is important though, but that model would then be re topo with clean AF quads, no triangle or ngons. Apply for a job as a modeler with any studio and ask them. Anyone selling tutorials should at the very least have an IMBD link or some kind of working model portfolio.

[@Alxx777x]

❤❤❤

[@eddiedemeira2645]

Best channel for 3D modeling for Hard Surface. Your courses are really worthy the money and I use them a lot! Great job guys, keep up the great work.

[@weedniac]

I was stuck and bored unable to make a single model of my own after a 3 month course. The BB course taught me how to make science fiction and industry models in a fun way, the SubD technique helps me make more organic models but I use both depending on whether I am interested or not. BB school approach keeps me awake

[@piker78]

wel... some valid points specifically for gameDev-ing specific asset, and Ruy swearing a lot. Again. :) It almost seems like he does not like subD :) Here's a thought for you Ruy - try it. And not for the "clean topology" argument. Try to emulate some of Arimus's designs. Or Vitaly's. Or MarcoPloufe's. Also try sculpting. Try Zbrush or 3dCoat. BoxCutter isn't everything man, it anything - it's EXTREMELY limiting design-wise. INSANELY so. Explore more, do subD just for the specific designs it's able to produce, throw it into CAD, or into Zbrush, transform it and cut it up, play with it. And get a beer and smile more, swearing this much ain't healthy. :) Cheers

[@PonteRyuurui]

hey long time no speaky, how's life mate. well as it happens we have just dropped a brand new subd course with a full on addon workflow, even boxcutter got to be used once. you need to remmeber that our content is revolving around what we offer and the crowd we are targetting, so you need to shift the perspective when you look at it to business oriented. I do play with CAd etc on a side, but diluting the content and de-nieching is a bad idea biz wise. swearing is very healthy, try it.

[@piker78]

@@PonteRyuurui oh i do. Everytime zBrush/Blender/Maya/Unreal/myComputer crash I introduce new depths into the Bulgarian grammar. :D

[@PonteRyuurui]

@@piker78lmao

[@geeffeeg2343]

I'm working in the ArchViz industry. In general we don't really need clean quad typology, as most of the things are flat and don't need to deformed in any way. BUT when it comes to displacement you are screwed without a clean quad mesh. Or does anyone knows a way to get clean displacement on a cad model?

[@waitcube698]

arent those N-gon based

[@DarkerCry]

No for displacement you need to have good geometry flow for that kind of stuff. Render engines also dynamically subdivide geometry based on distance from the camera saving time.

[@rajendrameena150]

I will use adaptive subdivision, also other render engine allow displacement even on flat surface, they just adjust the geometry by their own.

[@criticalwokeracisttheory4645]

You can't.

[@robertocarlos3819]

I have a doubt! In Unreal, when you import an asset with an n-gon face, you may have an issue that this face turn transparent, maybe because of the miscalculation of the triangulation process... how to deal with this kind of problem with n-gon workflow? I dont know the exactly structure of the n-gon to cause this problem, but I have this problem very often with n-gon faces... Thx for the video.

[@aearoanimations5868]

Triangulate your low poly before exporting to engine. That way your controlling the outcome. Use triangulate modifier, keep normals and then apply.

[@robertocarlos3819]

@@aearoanimations5868 Thx for replying, bro... but I have the workflow Maya -> Substance Painter before exporting to Unreal... and the Painter itself already apply triangulation in mesh and even though I have this kind of issue

[@PonteRyuurui]

@@robertocarlos3819that is because you need to test your triangulated mesh, since every software triangulates differently, so even if it is all well inside of Maya, it could not be in UE, and again that is what we teach in our Game Asset course for Beldner

[@robertocarlos3819]

@@PonteRyuurui Got it, bro. Thx for the answer

[@dubtube6691]

Triangulate it in blender to check if it is ok? If so import to unreal. I'm am currently working on a big unreal project for a car manufacturer, nobody cares about quads. Or just look at meshes from megascans, no quads at all

[@48NERFG452]

Bevel shading Sub-d shading

[@d_dog9939]

kind of understand it /// it's more of "matching"

[@marcosurrealius]

Great video. Hopefully the quad-boy Andys will listen up and learn something.

[@StrongmanLi-pz7sl]

😂😂,quad boy 😂

[@Strider1122]

Peachy!

[@sethdaigle2284]

3:18 confirmed, Ryuurui is based

[@stana1980]

Is it possible to do unwrap for texturing if there is no proper topology.? Thanks Jesus loves you

[@TheKevphil]

What if the art director does not have the benefit of your great knowledge and discernment, and insists on all-quads? If you want to keep your job...

[@portiarockson2570]

Blender guru is an advocate for quads 😂😂😂. He is the mud 😂

[@exterri_]

:/

[@franciscoroldos1346]

So, according to this guy, anyone who thinks different than him about topology is lazy, a liar or simply "full of shit". And schools are lying, but he spreads the absolute Truth. Hmmm....

[@clairearan505]

If you take anything from this video, it's that your modeling method should be purpose driven. He could approach the subject with a more grace and stop pretending like knowing how to approach a 3D model makes someone a master of the universe, but in terms of the facts about modeling (leaving out the whining about people who are different) he's right on the money.

[@franciscoroldos1346]

@@clairearan505 Well, I don´t know what you mean with "people who are different"; I wrote "who thinks different about topology", which may be called "disagreeing people", but not "different people" at all. Second point: I´m not whining about anything, only want to point that insulting anyone who don´t agree with your point of view is not an acceptable way of debate. I have my opinion (again talking about topology) and won´t apologize (or whine) because it´s different from yours, but also won´t call you lazy, etc... Finally, I think that schools must teach the orthodox ways of working and the commonly accepted rules; once you master them you are free to break them if your project benefits from that.

[@clairearan505]

@@franciscoroldos1346 I was saying he was whining, not you.

[@franciscoroldos1346]

@@clairearan505 Sorry, I misunderstood your words. My English is far from good. Thanks for the clarification.

[@BradyRamaker]

Nice overall message but the social commentary about people being weakminded and "woke" technology or whatever is silly. It's just 3d modeling, not being a hard man surviving the battlefield or whatever.

[@PonteRyuurui]

so what kind of women clothing are you into mate

[@USBEN.]

​@@PonteRyuurui💀

[@BradyRamaker]

@@PonteRyuurui the last pair of women's pants i was in was your mother's

[@PonteRyuurui]

@@BradyRamakerlmao, well glad I helped you out of the closet mate, though I had no idea you were into women's clothes in their 70s, that's so brave

[@BradyRamaker]

@@PonteRyuurui no sauce comeback from a no sauce channel

[@DeputyChiefWhip]

Well if your a game artist, it needs to be good topology, quads/tris. Anything else, use your bad topo to your hearts content… Simple!

[@Argon-Matt]

How so? Game engines will handle N-Gons perfectly fine, assuming they are triangulated first. You can still use as many N-Gons as you want assuming (like Ryuurui said) the model doesnt need to deform. Obviously the story is much different for character artists, as most of their models will need to deform. Again, the purpose of the model matters massively.

[@DagobertX2]

He just explained in the video that good topology isn't an exclusive thing to game art. Every model needs good topology so it can look good with a shader, but that doesn't mean everything must be quads/tris if it's a simple static rigid object in a game. At the end the game engine will handle everything in tris anyways, just be sure that the vertex normals are set correctly. Bad topology will look bad outside of a game industry too, having weird shading artifacts etc. Bad topology is also when you have millions of polygons in a place where it doesn't need to be and just makes your life and work harder unnecessarily.

[@DeputyChiefWhip]

He can explain what he wants, Ive been working in the games industry for 20 years as a Senior and lead artist across aaa and mobile studios. Artists need to be in total control of their meshes and need to demonstrate it in a working environment. Sure you can use ngons where for high polys and for portfolio renders, but baked lower rez bake meshes and 90% of in game meshes need to be crafted with a few exceptions like decimated sculpted organics. Mesh quad and tri topology, meshflow and optimization are paramount! Im not here to argue, but to help people who may get an altered sense of reality. And for the record, i love his videos and use this type of workflow until it comes to final games meshes or baked lower res meshes..

[@PonteRyuurui]

fuck me, some IQ has escaped after reading this comment

[@DeputyChiefWhip]

@@PonteRyuurui haha keep doing what you do mate. We love you for it!

[@mix3r11]

Wise words not only about clean topology ;)

[@ivanm3342]

All quad topology is woke bullshit!!😂

[@mix3r11]

@@ivanm3342 so true