CNC vs Human : Who Crafts the Better VIOLIN ?

In this video, I interview Violinmaker John Kirk, who crafts violins using a CNC machine. John shares his insights on how much of the violin-making process can be automated and where the human touch is still essential. We explore the balance between CNC precision and traditional craftsmanship.
Can a CNC machine truly replace the artistry of a skilled luthier? Watch as we delve into this fascinating discussion and see the results of combining modern technology with time-honored techniques.
Check out John Kirk's shop and learn more about his work: www.kirkviolins.com
Meanwhile all the best from Cremona
Edgar
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[@charlesblithfield6182]

This was a fascinating discussion. I like the idea of a master maker, like you Edgar, using high resolution scans of great instruments and the very best woods you have selected, to craft the neck and scroll and the plates to the level where you are scraping the arching, and finalizing the thicknessing, fine tuning the plates if you will. The CNC is thus like a maker apprentice providing you with the plates “in the rough” but to the dimensions you require for that instrument. Most of the process in this manner of making is the same as has been done for centuries and the CNC machine just provides you with the basis of crafting the plates, such that you may be able to produce several more instruments per year.

[@ZacharieLanoue]

There is a parable here with CNC in fine instrument making and the use of pin- hole cameras (camera obscura) in fine art history. Many great painters of the renaissance period secretly used a camera obscura to trace all the elements onto the canvas from life. They also had the experience of thousands of hours painting from observation. Combining the skill in the hands with the accuracy of tracing from life made for some of the most beautiful works of art ever made. Vermeer is famous for his secretive use of a camera obscura to create seemingly impossible paintings by hand.

[@murdo_mck]

15:13 "the more I give to others the less I know what I have to do". The key point I think. Most of the work can be automated or given to apprentices, making the craftsman far more productive, but something is lost if he or she does only the fine tuning and the finishing touches. Something your customers and John Kirk can hear when they play a true 'handcrafted' instrument. Only some parts are made by your own hands. The right ones.

[@user-yc7ig6ie3d]

great video😁 I love how even though they both have different ideas and and ways of doing things they both are interested in each others work. it is truly inspiring

[@CaptainRon1913]

In 1979, about the only personal computers available were the Radio Shack Tandy TRS-80 (trash 80), Acorn, the Apple 2, and Commadore PET2001

[@devinwhall9407]

As a former cnc operator and someone starting to build instruments, I feel that they can both exist. I feel that the front and back plates could easily be roughed out by cnc then the master can fine tune them by ear. I even have an idea to balance the plates similar to how jet turbines are balanced that would be fun to experiment with.

[@picksalot1]

Fascinating interview. I think a sonic analysis, like was done in the movie "The Red Violin," would add a critical level of improvement to what can be done with CNC. To get great results when working with wood requires accounting for how each individual piece flexes and vibrates, and how it performs when connected to other pieces of wood. This analysis would add what a Master Luthier knows through decades of experience and feel to the precision that can be achieved through CNC. Eventually, the day comes when the Luthier's hands can no longer make what their mind and heart desires. CNC can bridge that gap and fulfill that inspiration, and keep the Luthier's genius alive. Thanks

[@umiviolalefut1593]

Kirk? From billings!!!! We lived in billings! On 24th st w...Lived less then a block from his shop. My viola is one of his Genoa violas... And my husband selected one of his restorations... An old German violin. His wife is a gem!... Actually it was Kirk who rekindled an interest in violin making... Which then led me to find you Edgar, and your academy... Now I am in rexburg... Doing violin repairs and finishing up Edgar's academy. It's such a treat to see Kirk on your channel... He said in his email that he was going to cremona... 😁 hi kirk!

[@winstonoboogie2424]

Wood is inconsistent, so the best the cnc could do is get close, saving the luthier a lot of work, and the rest done by hand. Someday a violin maker will build a violin with rosewood back and sides and cause a musical revolution.

[@user-fg6sb9lg2j]

Anything considered as hand crafted art is beyond compare, the finest minds, hands tools will always contain minor imperfections that perhaps makes them special. The allure with historical musical instruments using mystique and legend perpetuate an illusion of unachievable excelence. The Ashmoleum museum in Oxford England has several Stradivarius violins considered too valuable to play and so are consigned to a life of being in a glass display case. A musician who for many years played a stolen Stradivarius disguised with boot polish no one ever said that is a Strad. To say modern violins cannot match the voice and tone of a Strad could be romantic indulgence or an eccentric obsession. Kind regards Tim

[@loveearth262]

I realy like this discussion am very happy there is 2 maker make their instrumen with their own way and they all very passionate what they doing. Sure this is interesting talk❤

[@azielce]

Wonderful interview, thank you

[@chrishinks46]

Absolutely fascinating. Thankyou.

[@Rowuk2024]

The focus in my view is not "affordable", rather repeatable. The idea of the CNC as an "apprentice" is fascinating!

[@mellissadalby1402]

Very interesting. I have always been interested in what could be done with modern CNC machines, but I also suspected that they could not approach to same level of performance in an end instrument as one made by a Master Luthier. There is "magic in the hands".

[@laurenrichardson3162]

This was a very sparkling discussion. 😊

[@damianc80]

I think it’s a great idea! You can always cnc the piece of wood in the beginning to a near finished state then do the last 10% touches and of course put it together etc. and maximise the sound. So yes I think it’s a great idea! Saves a lot of time in the beginning to spend in the last touches. More time to perfect and create a unique sound that makes a lasting impression. Have you considered treating the wood for better qualities? Fungus treatment or chemical ??

[@violinfanatickamraz1403]

I live in Billings MT where he lives. I use to live right around the corner from his shop.

[@Joe___R]

A cnc definitely can't adjust for the different tone of every piece of wood. That is the biggest reason good handmade instruments will stay on top for a while to come. In the United States, we can still purchase raw ebony lumber.

[@poorfesor]

Numerical Control machines were around in the middle 60's for sure no idea why it first came but the factory I was working in 1966 had plenty of NC machines.

[@HarmonieZvuku-harfy-kalimby]

Okay, so I put the like! =D Iam a starting harp maker. Doing everything slowly by hand and feel, no cnc planned and I really like this discusion! And I think its true for every "hand product" lowest price products are already made by automatization for a long time. Now is time that mid price can also be made by cnc but somewhere in high, there is some master level and not just mastery of hanf but more mastery of feel and intuition and that can be made by machines.. Never ever =) Thank you, Tomáš

[@guillermoramirez8444]

Thank you for this video. Just awesome!!

[@mykofreder1682]

To reach the high level you have to hand make under a master. The master who wanted to work by themself could then reduce the time by trial and error do the rough carving with machine. And spent their time finishing instruments and produce enough to make a living at it.

[@envisiotube]

Amazing insights.

[@scottakam]

If violins were made from manufactured materials, the CNC would win hands down. Same material + same dimensions every time = same result. But we like trees! I do think there is value in getting the pieces close with the CNC and finishing by hand.

[@danielbarbieri8199]

You have to tap the wood like a bell. Sound must guide construction. Every piece of wood is different, to get the best out of it, only human experience can do this job.

[@kevinv.m.94]

It's just amazing that certain innovations on violin family start with cellists, such as Luis Leguia and this guy.

[@jameschristiansson3137]

Although Luis Leguía was not the first maker of carbon fiber violin family instruments, he is an innovator of such.

[@carter19115]

As a CNC tinkerer, I'd love to see John Kirk's shop. At least my frustration in my VSO has been small shifts in X,Y for the flip as John mentioned. I'd like to see how he handles that and secures the work. It might just be a gap between the artist and the engineer to think in maximizing accuracy in reproduction. In reality, you can't get the CNC 1/10,000 by hand, and it's the board tuning that takes in the wood, the minor "improvisations" from the carve and varies the thickness for the 1:1 instrument from the stock patterns both follow. I'd like to hear what Edgar found not quite right with a CNC board for tuning as it should be near his own apprentices. Perhaps it's a spot where the profile should be higher or lower during the carve because of the wood that a fixed CNC pattern can't compensate for?

[@sghulten]

Would have been a more convincing discussion if he'd have brought an assembled completed instrument with finish and setup.

[@derrickburry1788]

Interesting.

[@YouGuysAreAmazing]

There is a way to embrace both worlds. As a maker, you can have CNC mills which perform the tedious and time-consuming preparations and still use your skills to make each instrument a unique piece. I’m not an instrument maker but I am a “maker” and I have found that in order to compete in today’s market, you have to do both and allow a certain automation into your creative process. How much % you want hand vs. machine is up to you. Just think about it, as Edgar says, he uses electric band saws and this does not diminish the quality of his instruments. There may be purists out there who would be appalled by the use of any electrical appliances for instrument making. Important is, the resulting price of an instrument and the true gain in quality.

[@ghlscitel6714]

The CNC mill is imposing quite high vibrations on the wood while machining. Does this influence the resonance properties of the timber? Maybe a question for John Kirk.

[@yadaroni]

A CNC can get the soundboard VERY CLOSE. The dimensions on the best sounding violins ever made, have dimensions that are only a couple of millimeter difference from the thickest to the thinest part. None of them are beyond certain dimensions. It makes perfect sense to have the CNC get it to the outside of the final dimensions. Then you can refine the last thicknesses by hand, tuning it in relation to the density and acoustic characteristics of that piece of wood.

[@iokarii]

I am wondering, if type of work depends.. 🤔. Router has rotating head, and chisel is working in align with wood threads..

[@antaniperdue3148]

I make violins and cello with my cnc machine some experimenting different kind of wood

[@DavidKaiser-ox8hd]

If there would be a PERFECT violin. How would it sound?

[@voiceofreason8606]

That is the 10 million dollar question! Having played many beautiful sounding instruments, it really depends on the artist’s (definitely not me) ear. The variables are nearly endless. Moving the sound post a 10th of millimeter can make all the difference. The strings, the bridge angle, THE BOW, etc The basic sound of an instrument is I believe aurally measurable but where? Under the ear sounds completely different 100 feet away. That resonance you can feel, even when talking near the instrument in your hands, I think gives one a good handle on the potential. Clearly, one does not need to (always) spend $10 million to get a violin that sounds soul inspiring, The sound needs to be “perfect” for the artist that makes it sound “perfect” for the listener. We are always in the pursuit of perfection and that is what gives meaning and joy in music. The famous Heifetz response when a fan tells him how beautiful his violin sounds and holds it up to his ear and and says, (paraphrasing) “Funny. I don’t hear anything.”, kinda sums things up.

[@user-fg6sb9lg2j]

If it’s has not been made how would we know. Kind regards Tim

[@nickyork8901]

Chinese violins are of course nowadays far better than just 'VSOs', so that comment was a bit misleading. There are some very fine Chinese hand makers and also really good quality Chinese origin student instruments.

[@iokarii]

Exactly.. Violin making could be learned, any nation. Depends on, on which price level you are aiming. And no usefull info is coming if somebody compare low level with high level.. Compare same levels. And simply, statistically, if more people in some nation will do it, higher chance that more talents will appear.. 😉 I have bought "Netherlands" violin by label.. My teacher said, decent, sounds good.. Good price/quality ratio. I made little investigation.. So produced in China 🤞

[@jaredbridgeman246]

I think they mean like from dropshipping companies guys like Alibaba/Aliexpress, eBay & Amazon Mass produced violins that were made through shortcuts, not the CNC ones here that the guy here is doing.

[@elluisito000]

Is a better writer able to write better novels because he uses a typewriter instead of a pc with Microsoft Word?

[@peterstephen1562]

There is a lot of runout in the grain of the cello back shown here.

[@Daniel_N201]

time is money =))

[@hallsf]

Ah-ha. It just occurred to me that a thickness caliper is a computer--a mechanical analog computer.

[@mtv565]

Don't tell me AI can make Stradivarius grade, master level violins? Awww....

[@Ilcannone1743aficionado]

500likes...very interesting ...a hand made violin by a good craft man is way better...is like going to a Gourmet Restaurant or a fast food...no comparison...Great video...Thank you!!!

[@EdgarRuss]

You got it very well!!! Gourmet/ Fast Food!!!!! 👌🏼 But even Fast food can be made well and healthy!!! It’s just different and has to be sold as what it is!

[@bobweiram6321]

His accent sounds slightly German.

[@davidconiglio7577]

I am sick and tired of hearing about Chinese saying things that doesn’t make sense with my experience . I do like to start making violin is far I am at the bottom .the problem that we have is selfish for example working in a company store during Christmas there was a challenging for painting Santa Clause and others paper drawings .the was a woman that she knew drawing and her painting wasn’t like true painter in details . My drawing did have detail of shadow and depth .she won because friends,I was from Europe conclusively why some is trying every one is trying to disregard is work .

[@VeritasPraevalebit]

Too much talk, too little action. In fact, no action.

[@EliseVeldt-xc5wl]

no, violins are also art. nobody is intrested in a painting made by a robot. same is for violins. factory made instruments are only good for student grade instruments