CO2-Free Fe: Green Steel Tour with Boston Metal

Steelmaking makes up quite a significant portion of global CO2 emissions (about 8%). It is also done using a very old, tried, and true method. To be able to address this, we need to come up with newer, lower-emissions ways of processing iron ore into steel.
Boston Metal is one of the pioneers in this field with their "Molten Oxide Electrolysis" process. In this video, I had a tour of their facilities in Woburn, Massachusetts, and spoke with the brilliant minds working there about their technology and developments.
Bookmarks:
0:00 Intro
2:50 Boston Metal's Development Stages
3:04 0.1 kA Lab Cell - Experiments, Molten Oxide Electrolysis process
4:28 0.25 and 2.5 kA Semi-Industrial Cells - Feeding, electrolysis, and tapping
6:29 25 kA Industrial Cell - Interview with Senior VP of Technology Stephan Broek
8:22 Scaling up the technology - What is the goal, metal manufacturing landscape, what's next for Boston Metal, compromises and challenges
11:42 Rosie's thoughts on the tour and the technology
12:25 Outro
Sources:
IEA - Iron and Steel Technology Roadmap
www.iea.org/reports/iron-and-...
Boston Metal
www.bostonmetal.com/
Allanore, Yin and Sadoway - A new anode material for oxygen evolution in molten oxide electrolysis
www.nature.com/articles/natur...
A huge thank you to Boston Metal (and to Manisha, Heather, Karina, and Stephan) for the tour, supplementary information, and additional video footage!
If you would like to help develop the Engineering with Rosie channel, you could consider joining the Patreon community, where there is a chat community (and Patreon-only Discord server) about topics covered in the videos and suggestions for future videos and production quality improvements. / engineeringwithrosie

[@MyStevieB]

Hi Rosie, I think you did a great job explaining a totally new ironmaking process for steelmaking in a more sustainable way. It was a pleasure having you over in our facilities at Boston Metal.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

It was a great opportunity to visit you guys! Thanks for being so generous with your time and I look forward to following your progress over coming years.

[@peterarmstrong8613]

I love your videos Rosie. With so many sceptical opinions on clean energy around we need your excellent communication skills to understand all the pros and cons on this complex subject. With thanks. Pete.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Thanks Peter! That's nice of you to say. I do try to balance my scepticism of certain green techs with exciting projects with real potential 🙂

[@RazorSkinned86]

oh hell yeah. i love tours of all these newer steel processes. Everything from arc furnace mini-mills to cutting edge electrochemical processes. atm what has been driving me crazy about the discourse is we still have people pushing the idea that we aren't able to decarbonize steel right now if we had the will but in truth we have multiple methods already worked out for steel and really it's concrete where there are serious roadblocks.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Concrete is high on my list of video topics I need to cover! Preferably by doing a tour somewhere (because I also enjoy the tours!) But I haven't found a chance to tour a good concrete project yet. I do have one coming up on mineral carbonation which is a tech that allows a reduction in emissions from concrete.

[@bknesheim]

Just a little specification. This process do not produce steel. It produce iron that could be the source for making steel, but it is not steel.

[@photoo848]

@@EngineeringwithRosie For a tour covering concrete please contact the VUB (Free University of Brussels) they have done a very short video on their research (kzbin.info/www/bejne/gF7Vgqd-pLunqac ) that I truly believe deserves more attention

[@richardallison8745]

I have 40 years supervisory experience in the steel industry and we are not even near ready to go carbon free. I wonder what happens when there is not enough energy to charge electric cars let alone a steel mill. We are going to ruin the steel industry if not the entire economy of the US. Instead of industry making changes, politicians are mandating this garbage in which we will be paying even more for energy than we are presently. Making steel with hydrogen or Green Hydrogen in large quantities is impossible now because we don't have the technology to do it economically but I know some wise guy will dispute what I am saying but in the future I will be proven right. The change is too fast and too drastic and will cause the loss of good middle class jobs in the name of the myth, climate change.

[@trueriver1950]

@@richardallison8745 clearly the US economy is more important than the survival of humankind past our grandchildren's generation. And even more important are "good middle class jobs". Right, gotcha! Even if you hadn't named your country is have known where you're from.

[@nitelite78]

Fantastic video. I never studied engineering but the difficulties in scaling things up and overcoming those problems is the most interesting aspect to me.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

You must be an engineer at heart then!

[@dprcontracting6299]

Well done Rosie. Good to see you out and about checking things out in person

[@JohnDoe-yq9ml]

You’re a kiddie diddler. I see it in your eyes. The eyes never lie.

[@theelectricwalrus]

Thanks for the tour!!! Great video, it's cool to see these site tours and explanations

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Thanks Christopher! I was so excited to do this tour, so I'm glad the video captured that 😊 Project tours are my favourite kind of video to make, though they take more effort. I have a few more cool ones coming up in the next few months.

[@alantupper4106]

Fascinating stuff! Between this and some of the direct magnesium oxide electrolysis research done at Boston University, Massachusetts is really putting in the work on green metal refinery.

[@MrNikosogiatros]

Look up Phoenix Tailings too for a different side of green refining, Massachusetts again!

[@solexxx8588]

I hope they are successful at making this economic. Making steel and concrete that are green is vital to quickly displace fossil fuels and industrial processes that produce large amounts of CO2. The electrification of mining equipment along with these innovative green processes could give us a chance of avoiding the worst case climate change path we are on now. Thanks for an informative video.

[@mikeklein4949]

Wonderful work! The practical aspects of development.

[@rohan.fernando]

An interesting steel making process, and very similar to a good'ol Aluminum smelting arc furnace which consumes MASSIVE amounts of electrical power. ie. typically needs to be located close to a electrical power generation station. Interestingly, there is a way to do this same work without the need for the arc furnace and electricity.

[@incognitotorpedo42]

How do you reduce iron oxide without heat and electricity? By using hydrogen? I think electric reduction will be cheaper.

[@MakeTeachRepeat]

I’m interested to see it makes Oxygen and not CO2, like the Al Hall process. The anode is very central to this and I’m curious to see what it might be - perhaps some PGM ceramic.

[@gabriellevine6219]

Very cool to see the various sizes and real time operation of the reactors. Well done

[@JonnyAugust1]

Love your videos & analysis. Green Steel gets a lot of hype because it seems easy to understand and easily accessible. It would be really cool to see an evaluation of the 1on1 replacement of SMR technology in Refineries since refinery consumption makes up 25% of the the current world wide demand of H2.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

That's an interesting idea for a video.

[@GarretKrampe]

Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement

[@movax20h]

I believe their processes are already used in making Titanium cheaper. And prof. Sadoway has some other related tech in the works, for liquid metal batteries, also based on redox and similar electrode material research. Hopefully it all works, and makes Steel making cleaner, less CO2 emissions and easier to do.

[@davidkeller6334]

Lovely work Ms. Rosie

[@davesutherland1864]

Interesting video. They seem to be addressing the factors need to make this a viable production method.

[@sarcasmo57]

This is how I will make all my iron from now on.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

😂 I never make iron any other way!

[@Justifi3r09]

Great video Rosie! It's moderately heart warming to see that we can make progress!

[@ChrisBigBad]

Yes. Also I noticed, that they are already working on it for 10 years. And I certainly hope, that other things have started lots of years ago, which will now all come out of the bushes to help us fix this.

[@peterpanda5069]

Great reporting, and just love to see so many women on the cutting edge of world-changing research!

[@gordybishop2375]

This is such great news but few comprehend. Thank you for all you do.

[@michelem.6104]

Excellent report--thank you Rosie!

[@kingdimitrieclips5125]

For me, this process was difficult to understand. However, I learned something new today. Thank you 😊

[@martinsoos]

And thank you for not being an hour long on this one. :=)

[@dhingranitish]

Tha'ts a fantastic work. Many thanks for this videos.

[@kevinmerrell9952]

Great stuff! I remember reading about this technology for use on Mars.

[@manuelcilia391]

Very good interview , extremely interesting, same prof that created the liquid metal battery

[@brunoethier896]

That woul pair perfectly with our clean hydro power jere in Québec, we already produce a major pprtion of aluminum in North America.

[@QALibrary]

Thank you, Rosie - a very good video

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Lots of people are commenting about whether this is really a steel making process, or just iron. And it's true that we really only talked about the iron part here in this video (partly because I made a different video on steelmaking recently and didn't want to double up on the same content: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oIinY6F_arebpqs ). Here's more on the iron/steel issue for those who are interested: "Iron and steel are intricately linked. There is no steel without iron. Boston Metal’s technology relates to primary steel production. The liquid iron that is tapped from our MOE cells integrates directly to the ladle metallurgy step in steelmaking where carbon would be added, along with other elements depending on end-product specifications. The iron making phase of primary steel production is responsible for the bulk of CO2 emissions related to steelmaking. Our process eliminates the carbon-intensive steps of primary steelmaking - coke production, iron ore processing, blast furnace, basic oxygen furnace. " (quote from Boston Metal)

[@douglasbell3344]

great research and presentation

[@Kayyyman]

Thanks for showing, that was super interesting and super nessecerry for the future!

[@BillMSmith]

Another great video, I really enjoy your way of delving into these ideas, providing enough information and context without leaving us non-engineers in the dust. OTOH, you were less than 70 miles away and you didn't call to say hi? 😅 Oh well, I tend to buy cheap lunches anyway, you're probably better off.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Ha ha, it seems lots of my viewers are in the Boston area. Which I guess makes sense, there is soooo much clean energy tech being developed in the area. I was unfortunately just recovered from Covid when I made this video (had to delay by a week before I could even get into the US!), and still super tired. So I wasn't able to see anything except my hotel room and Boston Metal. I definitely need to go back and take a look at some of the other stuff going on there.

[@billhill4479]

@@EngineeringwithRosie Maybe you could do a general video on the technology being developed in the Boston area ? Or in any other scientific/engineering precinct for that matter ? It seems there's plenty going on. I really enjoy how your videos explain the reality , or not , of some of these technologies and how soon we might expect to see them commercially available.

[@NaumRusomarov]

love your videos. you're my favourite renewables youtuber.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Wow, thank you!

[@alberthartl8885]

This was great! Now you need to do a video on cement. Steel and cement make up nearly 20% of CO2 emissions.

[@rklauco]

Amazing and exciting! Thanks, let's see how they will be able to compete with current dirty tech.

[@gregbailey45]

This looks VERY promising technology!

[@jimgraham6722]

Thankyou, we have to get rid of the Bessemer process. This is an important technique in addition to electric arc furnace. Also for steel, hydrogen reduction being pursued by Sweden and Germany looks promising. Next we need to solve CO2 problem of cement manufacture, then fertilizer, chemicals, synthetic fuel, the list goes on . .. and on.

[@philhermetic]

Knowledge of materials grew, scientific understanding advanced, and new smelting processes were discovered, The Bessemer Process became obsolete. The method stopped being used in the US completely in 1968. Electric air furnaces and other more technical oxygen steelmaking processes took its place.21 Oct 2021

[@ThePaulusUK]

I appreciate they are showing EAF continuing - obviously, the EAF technology is essential in sustaining a circular economy for steel. Interesting to hear this process can possibly tolerate lower grade iron ore - including silicon and other dilution? It would be good to talk about how the BOF, EAF and Boston metals products compare in GWP/kg. There are obvious horizontal issues is obviously the 600KA, which as discussed is similar to the ridiculously intensive Aluminum smelting process- aka solid electricity! Build it adjacent to hydro as we’ve seen ‘hydro’ the Aluminum smelting company in Norway achieve to provide v low GWP Aluminum. Lastly, the term green steel, zero carbon steel etc. all great buzz words but the ESG community is soo confused about all this…. We need clearer messaging to help folks in the industry

[@fredericrike5974]

Rosie, in addition to your presence, the professor's mentioning things like costing and such- it doesn't get much realler than that! FR

[@leserickson7057]

Rosie I would give you a two thumbs up if I could. Always learning along side with you.

[@xxwookey]

I hadn't realised DRI/EAF could only be used on such a small fraction of ores. No-one mentioned that in the various sources I have watched/read about that development. OK, those are Boston Metals promo slides, so maybe it's not quite that bad really, but this seems to be a very significant caveat when talking about decarbonising steel production.

[@jackmclane1826]

I am very curious what the "inert anode" could be. At temps >1500°C, kA currents and potentials of the different iron oxides in an oxygen rich atmosphere... And how it fares against the hydrogen based conventional process.

[@duaneediger2234]

The references to DC current beg the question: what voltage are they using? This would clue us in to power demand.

[@SheepShearerMike]

Same thought here, I wondered about voltage and as you say power requirement, I dare say it must be massive. Also wondering what could supply a constant 600,000 amps on the larger version, is this where the Nuclear Modular Reactor finds its home?

[@wegder]

I live close to a Nucor steel recycling mini mill, the electric arc furnace produces about 200 tons per hour on average.

[@stephensimpson5283]

That's awesome!

[@Adolar]

It’s electric! Bogie wogie wogie! Very cool video

[@DavidKennyNZL]

Intresting

[@petewright4640]

Really interested to get Rosie's take on Electra in Boulder USA who are developing a low temp electrolysis method of producing iron from low grade iron ore.

[@jackmasi9753]

Sounds like a promising future technology.

[@DownunderGraham]

A key component of this process, as shown, is gravity. To refine metals in zero G we will almost certainly need to use electricity. I wonder how we will approach the refining in zero G? Could the cell shown be spun like a centrifuge perhaps?

[@alejandromartinez3475]

hope these guys get it and make a bunch of money this is so cool

[@robindumpleton3742]

These processes are only viable when electricity is cheap. As a comparison the Alcan plants were built in Scotland, where massive amounts of Hydro power could be had cheaply. How many megawatts are required? What is the electrode cost? Capital costs of actually building these reactors is negligible, compared to the electrical energy and electrode costs required

[@jongun65]

What power consumption per tonne of steel are they predicting?

[@mentortocani9352]

And is there a way to restore that energy used in the process by cooling it down to a heat exchanger or something which could be used for other applications like heating homes

[@russellegge9840]

It takes a large amount of energy to strip the oxygen atoms from the iron ore, it isn't just left over as heat.

[@zaphodbeeblebrox1130]

hot stuff !! wonderful to know, hope it comes about soon. OK, bye.

[@Venjem]

Thank you for this video, it was very interesting, and I am looking forward to more on this! For instance, is there any public estimate of the cost per Kg of this technology with respect to traditional ones? What are the constraints that bind firms to use one 200 kA cell, instead of two 100 kA ones? The last one might be a bit naive, but I have no engineering background.

[@JonMartinYXD]

From what I know, the cost per kg will be dominated by the cost of electricity plus the cost of the cell amortized over its expected lifetime. As for cell size, I'm guessing it is a combination of labour efficiency and thermal efficiency. To the former: it takes a lot less work to tap one big cell than it does to tap many little cells. To the latter: the larger the cell, the less electricity will be lost out of the cell as heat. The iron output of the cell is a function of its volume, its heat loss is a function of its surface area. This is why the really small experimental cells had to be heated externally. Volume cubes, surface area squares, so the larger the cell is the more energy efficient it will be.

[@Venjem]

@@JonMartinYXD That was a great, yet very easy explanation, thank you! As for the cost, I agree on the long run drivers, but would still be cool to know where we stand now, that is the estimate of current €/Kg and the estimate of the "switch price" of electricity with respect to conventional steel.

[@matthewwakefield6321]

One question is what type of ores does this process work on? From statements made in Calix’s ZESTY press release it sounded like this process would not be applicable to the major Australian reserves? Would be good to follow up with comparisons to ZESTY and the SSAB HYBRIT

[@richardseifried7574]

Where (and how) do you add the carcon to turn the iron into steel?

[@TomCameron]

It seems to be that Sadoway has a knack for getting grants and startup funding for "green" tech that ends up fizzling. They've had a DECADE to reproduce what bauxite refining already does, and they haven't even hit production-like machinery? What?? Sadoway is the same professor that has been talking about his "molten metal" battery that hasn't gone anywhere, and now we see plans for a "commercial" design making 100s of kg a day? That isn't even a drop in the ocean compared to the 88 million metric tons of just steel produced annually in the US alone.Even if these units produce 500kg, we'd need over half a million of them operating 24x7 to meet just the US production. And the US is third in steel manufacturing.

[@incognitotorpedo42]

It takes a long time to optimize processes like this. The cells will get larger, and they can be ganged as in an aluminum smelter. Sadoway's liquid metal battery IS going somewhere, last I heard.

[@polystone806]

Hello rosie.great job.i have a question please.wich type of iron ore that work with this new process.pellet,lump,powder or low grade...?thanks a lot.

[@placeholdername0000]

Can this load follow? So that you could run it at say 1/3 power at night and ramp up to full power during the day when the sun is shining?

[@yggdrasil9039]

Brilliant.

[@pauloconnor890]

Awesome, love it. I wonder how this tech compares to using induction or microwaves

[@robindumpleton3742]

That doesn't reduce iron, it is a simple melting process. Most small foundries have got rid of their blast furnaces and melt via induction. A local foundry has two 700Kg induction furnaces. Presently one is shut down due to the cost of electricity. If it keeps going, they will shut up shop altogether

[@w0ttheh3ll]

Like Robin said, you cannot make iron just by heating ore. This is an electrochemical process that uses electrical energy to break down the ore. Traditionally, energy from coke is used.

[@mark_5588]

Hi Rosie, did they say who they are working with for the electrodes? The current state of the art appears to come from GrafTech International (Ticker: EAF) but I'm trying to understand if they have made a special electrode for their process.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

They have a special electrode. The electrode is the heart of the innovation here, there is a link to Prof Sadoway's paper (2013 I think) in the description.

[@johnpoldo8817]

Wow, you are far from home. I’m in Boston and never knew this company existed. They don’t get much local press.

[@bknesheim]

It is a little surprising that they could not take more from the similar process used to produce Aluminium. At least as stated they can use power delivery technology from the aluminium side to speed up development to industrial scale. It would be interesting to know if they had any cost estimates for the industrial process?

[@robroysyd]

Iron ore has a higher melting point than bauxite. Aluminium production does release some CO2 as coke is used as a reducing agent. It's there to "grab" the oxygen so it doesn't recombine with the aluminium.

[@MyStevieB]

Actually, the MOE process is simpler. To produce aluminium you take bauxite and refine this to almost pure aluminium oxide (alumina). The electrolysis process then converts alumina to aluminium. Using MOE, iron ore is directly used in the electrolysis process to make pure iron. A full industrial unit operation is thus skipped.

[@RobertSandell]

So I am a bit confused. I understand that this is a great CO2-free way of making iron, and that's great! But from what I remember learning in school is that to make steel you need carbon mixed in in the final crystal structure with the iron. So that they can make iron with this process I understand, but it seems impossible to make steel using it?

[@stormiewutzke4190]

Does it work well for high end high performance and clean steel production?

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

200kA is how many kw and kwh ? This would give an insight into how many solar PV panels are needed, or wind power generators.

[@wjhann4836]

First I want to say I appreciate the way of development - big laboratory instead of intensive powerpointing. I have questions left: - what is the difference to the Arc processes? - what kind of quality is the product - you were already talking about "steel"?

[@JustNow42]

First of all the difference is the graphite electrodes in the common arc furnace, graphite would emit CO2 in this application. Dipping the electrodes in highly oxidised slag would erode them very fast. Then the slags and how this is managed and the arc furnace does not have a controlled atmosphere. The arc furnace is also tilted when tapping, not suitable for a continuous process, So just about everything. Arc furnaces can however handle sponge iron quite well. The current in the arc furnace is 3 phase AC and generally only about 50 kA.

[@wjhann4836]

@@JustNow42 Thanks for explanation.

[@MyStevieB]

The MOE process is an electrochemical process where electrons travel through molten slag. They meet FeO and reduce this to Fe and O2. There is no arc involved. Because the anodes are made from special alloys there is no CO2 formed and only pure O2 gas. MOE iron is pure iron without carbon. In the phase diagram, it then is called "steel" but in reality you can't call it steel because real steel has other metals added to it to make it the right grade. This explains why there is often confusion between the term iron and steel in the case of MOE iron.

[@ZaphodHarkonnen]

Ok, that's pretty fucking cool. Biggest issue I see is getting enough electrical power at wanted prices. Especially as datacentres and aluminium smelters are also wanting the exact same thing too.

[@americancitizen748]

Also factor in charging all of the new electric cars and phasing in more electric appliances to replace natural gas appliances. We will be forced to build (at great cost) more nuclear power plants.

[@jonathanedelson6733]

Can you please help me with my math on this? A '600kA' electrolysis cell is supposed to permit production of 1.5 million tons per year of steel. For round numbers I am assuming metric tons, so this means 1.5 x 10^9 kg of steel per year or simplifying that this is pure iron, 26.9 x 10^9 moles of per year. This gives me 852 moles per second of iron being produced. The oxidation number of iron in Fe2O3 is +3, so to reduce 852 moles you need 2.5 x 10^3 Faraday of electrons. 1 Faraday is 96x10^3 amp seconds. So with perfect coulombic efficiency, and if I have my maths correct, I'd expect one would need 246 MA to reach this production level. Is it possible that a 600kA cell will only produce 1.5 million _pounds_ per year of steel? Thanks for making these videos, and thanks for checking my math! -Jon

[@w0ttheh3ll]

What do they do with the oxygen?

[@dmnkln]

A question that puzzles me: is this method more energy efficient than steelmaking via direct hydrogen reduction + electric arc furnace? I could not find clear, concise information about that in the net so far.

[@andrewradford3953]

That's great news. I recently was wondering if steel could be produced electrically. The slides were a little small on my phone, so the only other input besides the ore is oxygen?

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

The oxygen is *removed* from the ore, not added. Electric current is what's added, though the actual commercial process is more complicated than just sticking electrodes in a pile of iron ore. If you're on your phone and want more details why don't you try the Boston Metal website, they've got some good diagrams on there and with the static images you can zoom in. It's also not the only way to electrically make steel. I made a more general video on zero emissions steel a few months back so check that out if you want to know more.

[@trueriver1950]

At some level of simplification this is like the way Aluminium is smelted: electrical energy to remove the oxygen from the metal oxides in each case. The energy is needed to replace the energy that was released when the oxides formed a billion years ago. The details differ between iron and aluminium, of course, but as this video pointed out the issues around the electrical engineering (rather than the electrolysis cells) have already been solved by the Aluminium smelters. They know how to scale up the wiring. That gives them a useful leg up.

[@evanherk]

question: is the iron produced chemically more pure than that coming from a traditional smelter? I guess it could very well be.

[@paulcooper8818]

Is this process making steel directly or producing iron for making steel? Would be nice to differentiate this process from other electric arc furnace processes.

[@craigs5212]

They are reducing iron oxide to iron -- steel is a alloying process (adding or removing other elements to/from the iron)

[@AlRoderick]

People tend to get this wrong but in reality what we think of as steel is of a medium carbon content, cast iron has more steel and wrought iron has less. It's not that this is pure elemental iron and burning coal introduces carbon to it, it's more that this pig iron has a ton of carbon in it and we need to pump oxygen through it to get rid of some in order to make it into steel.

[@BulkerPasha]

This is an iron making process and if they could scale it upto 30,000 Tonnes per day, they might be able commercialise. Steel making would occur in the next part of the process. Anyway, good luck to this folks with their endeavours.

[@realmetallurgist8493]

The "iron" that comes out of a blast furnace typically contains about 4% Carbon, as well as other impurities which have to be removed in the steel-making process. This is because the iron was reduced with carbon, and so there is a huge excess of it which goes into solution in the iron. In the electrolytic process, the C level should be quite low, as no carbon is involved. Probably likewise for such impurities ans S and P.

[@rickharold7884]

Cool

[@DavidMartin-fk9sd]

Well, another post disappeared! I've signed in using a different Google account. The slide in the video saying that iron making using hydrogen needs high grade ore, in limited supply, is correct. Unfortunately over 70% of steel making equipment needs replacing by 2030, and electrolysis in quantity won't be ready by then. I omit the links confirming this in case it is some weird spam filter chucking out any posts with links ,search for spglobal's analysis. But we seem to be in a bit of a fix for decarbonising steel production.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Not all comments with links get deleted, but perhaps that is the reason as I can see this comment but couldn't see the others. Did you see the earlier video I did on steel where my guest and I talked about the different options for green steel? He basically split things into two, where up to 2030 it would be about reducing emissions in mostly existing equipment and then after would be about moving to zero emissions techs. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oIinY6F_arebpqs

[@davidmartin3947]

@@EngineeringwithRosie Yep, interesting video. I would comment more, but it seems a bit difficult here, and I am not a fan of Patreon's sweeping derogations of privacy, so there are several groups I would like to join, and don't mind paying, but don't fancy their conditions. More on the point, I did post on your interview with Dr Martin on the hassles of piping hydrogen, mainly due to its lower energy by volume. The post disappeared, but I thought my namesake missed the point, as if we are to hit the targets for GW, there is no way the NG pipelines will have to transport as much energy in, say, the UK or Germany as they currently do. Better insulation of homes, heat pumps, solar with cooling and use of their heat as in your video visit, and so on and on, all mean that the 30% or so that the converted NG pipelines would need to carry as hydrogen is a pretty good fit. Of course, 'and another thing' arguments may be made, but the notion that the lower capacity of the NG network converted to carry hydrogen is a showstopper simply makes no sense. Naturally aside from the costs of conversion, maintaining a network to carry less energy is more expensive per KWh, but that is another argument.

[@GarretKrampe]

how many volts ?

[@richdobbs6595]

How tolerant is this system to power outages? AFAIK, a power outage in an aluminum smelter can require weeks or months to restore cells to functioning. Can the rate of production be scaled down, to provide a variable load to the grid?

[@JustNow42]

Sounds quite possible , the possible week point might be the electrodes. 600 A is quite a lot and it also need to go somewhere ( through the bottom) might not be easy. The attempts to make arcfurnaces DC current did not go well. But ok, I am curious. The competition is using Hydrogen as the swedes try, not the old blast furnaces or carbon capture, but that is expensive.

[@richardallison8745]

If the Swedes use hydrogen to make steel, they will go out of business because the cost of hydrogen is not even competitive to natural gas. Carbon capture also adds to the cost of steel. Green steel will put lots of companies and jobs out of work.

[@trueriver1950]

@@richardallison8745 the Swedish system is intended to use on site solar electricity to make the H2. That means that by the time they get there the cost of H2 on the open market is less relevant. Also, if other industries like aviation retool to hydrogen or ammonia then the cost of H2 on the market will initially rise due to demand but then plummet as H2 production ramps up.

[@MyStevieB]

MOE is an electrolysis process similar to aluminium smelting. The best aluminium smelters run at 500,000 amps. The highest ones run at about 600,000 amps. This is very different from arc furnaces.

[@richardallison8745]

@@MyStevieB Very different. Electrolysis in aluminum does not arc but uses huge amounts of electricity. That is why there are almost no primary aluminum production in America because we don't have any hydroelectric dams that are dedicated to making aluminum. Alcoa sold all their primary production in the Tennessee if not the entire US.

[@MyStevieB]

@@richardallison8745 Try to look into the future. We need to electrify processes that use carbon. Like many other industries, the power industry will have to reinvent itself by going green and by having to significantly increase its capacities too. Tackling climate change requires some bold thinking and actions. Furthermore, please look again at Alcoa - they are a key partner in Elysis, the inert anode developer for aluminium smelting.

[@davidhoracek6758]

There is a lot of iron oxide on Mars - it's the reason why it's red. Would a process like this make sense in that setting, given the need not only for structural steel but also oxygen? It probably wouldn't make sense without a pretty serious nuclear powerplant, but might there be a way to directly use the heat from the fission reaction to melt the ore? Maybe a stream of incoming ore powder could even be a coolant for the reactor?

[@SirHackaL0t.]

Nice, a video title that isn’t posing as a question.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

That's how you get the clicks apparently! Though I personally don't notice too much difference in video popularity for the ones with better or more click bait titles. Choosing thumbnails and titles is my least favourite part of YouTubing.

[@messiermitchell4901]

Could this potentially be used for other metal oxides?

[@AndrewSheldon]

I guess the implication is that it's very similar to aluminium refining. So so economics will be similar to Alumina to aluminium. One might wonder about 'cheap electricity' suppliers to make it work.

[@AbleLawrence]

This would be great for in situ resource utilisation in space colonies

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

ha ha, yes. And then they'd be able to capture the oxygen and use that too presumably.

[@Tore_Lund]

Though more abundant than Bauxite for making Aluminum, electrolyzing Iron ore will make it as expensive. 6 times the price? Not a complaint, but it will change how much steel we use in construction and other places.

[@theunknownunknowns5168]

So there are multiple ways to produce steel without using coal? I need to rewatch your older videos. I was, still are confused why a specific new method is being developed in New Zealand too for "green" steel. As I understand there are scaled semi-commercial green steel plants in Europe and North America, can't we just copy those?

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

Yep there are several ways. This is the video where we discuss the different ways and pros and cons. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oIinY6F_arebpqs I didn't know there was an NZ tech in development, I'll have to look it up.

[@theunknownunknowns5168]

@@EngineeringwithRosie Thanks. Yeah search "Wellington Univentures: Green Steel". Not that advanced yet.

[@MyStevieB]

@@EngineeringwithRosie In New Zealand, the steelmaking process is based on iron sands as the raw material. This is fairly unique and they currently use submerged arc furnaces using carbon electrodes. The Uni is seeking to use a hydrogen route while reducing iron sand.

[@Danger_mouse]

Cleaning up steel industry carbon emissions is very important, given the vast amount of steel produced worldwide in a year. Your video showed the stepping stones of their work as they scale up, but it didn't explain how the process is green. Are they using H2, or some other process to rid the oxide from the iron ore, or is it simply the DC arc heating the ore to a point where the oxygen is released? Either way, to fully replace the current volume processed in every smelter worldwide (1950 million tons P.A.), we're going to incredibly vast amounts of green power and/or green hydrogen. I wonder whether we can find that much extra energy and still power everything else, simply from wind, solar and hydro etc.

[@fajile5109]

It doesnt burn fuel at the smelting plant. Thats how it stays clean. The power plant is still producing the co2. Its clean by pushing the cost off to someone else.

[@incognitotorpedo42]

@@fajile5109 We have lots of sources of clean electricity. It doesn't have to be coal. In fact, coal is being phased out of the electricity generation mix in much of the developed world.

[@incognitotorpedo42]

You missed the part where she explained that the electricity is directly splitting the oxygen from the iron. No hydrogen or any other reducing agents are needed.

[@Danger_mouse]

@@incognitotorpedo42 Thanks, I watched it again, and it was glossed over quickly and I missed it. It would have been great for Rosie to spend a little time exploring the process and explaining it a little better. I wonder how much additional energy is required for the system over and above the current carbon process.

[@helmutzollner5496]

I think their process is similar the Cambridge Farthing Process that was invented in Cambridge UK some 25 years ago. It uses Calcium Oxide as a salt and dissolves the ore in it then electrolysis will reduce the Fe Ox to iron on the electrode and releases O2 on the other. I always thought this would be an eccellent process for metallurgy on the Moon or Mars, as it also produces large qontities of Oxygen that is needed for the life support systems. However the power hunger of this process is ginormous. So it will need a nuclear plant next door to produce the required power. Otherwise, it will be a bit of an inefficient process if fossile fuels are used for the power generation. But it is too to see that this type of process is finally coming through. And with Russia out of the picture for Titanium for a while, it may also need to be used for that.

[@MyStevieB]

Helmut Zollner, the original MOE process is patented by Dr. Sadoway and Dr. Allanore. It has been deeply scrutinized so it is a unique process. From an energy point of view, the objective is to make steel using the MOE process with an amount of energy lesser or equal to conventional steelmaking processes like a blast furnace. The difference is that MOE is 100% electrical energy while standard technology is a combination of electrical energy and chemical energy from coal (coke). As long as we can be more efficient, then we get ahead. Yes, the power generation industry needs to follow suit to keep up with the development of decarbonization tools like MOE that electrify conventional processes. The MOE process is also very efficient for the production of ferro-alloys.

[@helmutzollner5496]

@@MyStevieB I don't doubt that the patents are water tight. The Cambridge process was just the first metallurgical process that did not rely on chemical Energy and in laymens terms electrolyzed the melt and removed oxygen gas from an ore. The paper at the time stated that other metal. So this new process goes in the same direction. I see the big potential in these process not only the environmental benefit for the civilization Herron earth, but also for thevspave settlement efforts. It is obviously much more economic to produce building materials and atmosphere from in-situ resources. And these electric processes are perfect for that. The old chemical processes were only viable because electricity was produced from fossile fuels, so using the coal directly in the process made it more efficient. With electric energy from other sources the chemical process is less useful. Over all I am very excited to see these new processes coming online. Will make the whole industry a lot cleaner. Hoeever, steel productiin is such a cut-throat busibess, any new process will struggle to gain traction, if the carbon usage is not factored into the pricing. So, here on Earth it is going to be a political decision to adopt these processes.

[@WilliamBusuttil]

13-07-2024.Please do a follow up on this.Thank you.

[@nekomakhea9440]

Did they say what the electrodes were made of, or how they're made? The paper linked just says "chromium alloys", which is kinda vague. It would have to be a pretty interesting material to not corrode, erode, melt, warp, contaminate the steel, or electrolytically deposit at ~1500C in a bath of molten steel and superheated oxygen flue gas while being electrically charged with hundreds of kiloamps...

[@orumadayan1086]

A quick Google search suggests that chromium is unstable in oxygen above 900 C (and iron at a way lower temperature). This suggests to me that chromium alloys cannot be inert at 1500 C. Actually, since iron melts at 1538 C, the bath temperature must be even higher. Earlier, I suggested that there was something fishy about Boston Metal's claims. I'm now doubling down on that comment.

[@MyStevieB]

@@orumadayan1086 Search for the patent by Don Sadoway and Antoine Allanore. Read it thoroughly because then you will understand its exact principles and how this alloy can be used under the conditions.

[@orumadayan1086]

@@MyStevieB The patent was tough to understand, but I found two papers. One says that the furnace was purged with helium and the other says argon. Even then, the pictures of the anode show a lot of corrosion after 250 minutes. Are you planning to contain a steel plant under argon or helium? Either way, you have a big problem.

[@InformatrIIcks]

There's something I don't understand: the title says "green steel" but it seems that in the video people are mostly talking about green iron ? Is there something i missed or do those cells produce a green iron that would then need to be enriched with carbon at a later stage ?

[@incognitotorpedo42]

Once you have iron, making steel is trivial. Just add a bit of carbon and a few other metals.

[@InformatrIIcks]

@@incognitotorpedo42 fair, but transforming iron into steel *while* limiting the CO2 footprint of the process isn't trivial ! Hence my question

[@Kargoneth]

Having done additional research, I had misunderstood the process. Iron ore can be smelted in an arc furnace by continually injecting carbon monoxide or other reducing agents along with the charge. For this they are proposing doing to iron ore what is already being done with aluminium ore. So instead of burning the coal to melt and reduce the ore, you are now burning the coal to generate the electricity to power the electrolysis. How can this possibly be economically competitive when the main producers of iron from iron ore in the world are not handicapped by emissions regulations?

[@incognitotorpedo42]

Coal is rapidly being removed from the generation mix in many developed countries. Making clean steel obviously requires clean electricity. This is a thing that already exists. We know how to do it.

[@Kargoneth]

@@incognitotorpedo42 True.

[@russellegge9840]

When you say the temperature goes up to 1600 do you mean 1600F or 1600C? I think it is 1600C which is 2912F. Are they using plasma torches to get to that temperature? They should look at what Ovako Steel in Sweden did with plasma torches to produce DRI. i know that ADL back in the day looked at something like this.

[@MyStevieB]

It is 1600 degC. Just above the melting point of iron. It may surprise you but the MOE process generates enough heat to sustain the temperature.

[@w0ttheh3ll]

At what voltage do they run the cells? Is it more efficient than using green hydrogen (I would assume so)?

[@movax20h]

They can run anywhere from 0.9 to 1.7V. But optimal is somewhere in between. The problem with too high voltage is probably that you then reduce other meterials (like molybden, silicon), making produce less pure and affect longevity of electrodes. In some places I read that due to various losses, 1.25V is close to optimal for iron reduction.

[@olivervazquez4560]

Come work for us and find out 👀

[@jasonhaymanonthedrawingboard]

I had been wondering about these kind of processes. I had induction furnace in mind, though an arc furnace is more direct. I believe there have been attempts to combine the two? Though I can’t for the life remember the source. 100tn a time. I heard that microhydro can contribute to production. Even solar being used to smelt steel directly. Fresnel lenses were used in the application. Small volume it alright. though I have no idea on the larger scales. You know when your dream about cleanest manufacturing when your mind drift to the same technology as lighthouse.. I have an idea on the solar front. but it questionable if it would even work? If you could build a glass brick arch much like a poly tunnel? with fresnel ideas built in? Green steel becomes very realistic . Great to see developments. Mass production might be a little way off? Certainly a stride from on the development front. Science tells us you can redshift and blue shift light to higher of lower energies. It not completely inconceivable that you can turn natural light into the lazer densities to achieve smelting temperature. Cold shuts might be an issue? But there a few smart lads out there who might do better than me of that front so a freebie. The whole idea reminds me a little of heliostats. But a more refined version. Lazer ignition fusion process is a very similar concept. If the can fire a a beam onto a pellet? then a continuous process might work with regards to steel? Equally would be co2 free. Or carbon neutral? Either way would be clear than current processes.

[@richardallison8745]

Electric induction furnaces are only used in small quantities in foundries. They are not practical in a steel mill. Green steel is many decades away if ever because the technology needed for large quantities that steel mills require does not exist. I am retired from supervision in the steel industry from the Alabama District with 40 years experience and 3d generation in my family.

[@jasonhaymanonthedrawingboard]

@@richardallison8745 thanks! I suspected my think wasn’t far from the mark? it great to hear from a veteran of the industry. I understand it would tack some considerable effort. Though a shop floor grunt like myself. wouldn’t quite know where to begin, Upscaling it to practical levels? It seems logical to have a system you could just plug and play? Switch out supply would be the first step as that wouldn’t stop production all that much. I’m aware of continuous casting methods involving oxide powders through a metal deposition process. Thought never seen in face to face. You also have the ability upscale 3D printing technology. more over the induction heads. To required sizes. I know you can get lazer cutting. Don’t think I’ve ever heard of lazer smelting? But it must be a possibility? James may from top gear. visited a developmental solar foundry on one of his documentaries. Where there were reaching 2000 degrees Celsius. The biggest lazer I have ever heard about is about a gigawatt. Though that was a few years ago. In my mind at least. I’m it got to be possible to rig enough lazers to smelt the primary material. too required production quantities. I don’t know of any steel plant using it. Sort of why I suggest the arc furnace first. As I’m aware the arc furnaces have been in use for while. Would have been the easiest thing for steel plants to start with. The infer structure largely there. would not require too high of an investment to get going. It great to see new technology developing. Love to see more in the coming years. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bqXXaIV9aLqFasU

[@richardallison8745]

@@jasonhaymanonthedrawingboard It was before my time but electric arc furnaces were around during World War II and USS had one at Homestead Works. I see on sites like this with laymen and people reading articles and taking this information and making it to support their causes and many times people are putting out information they like but omit other information that could challenge their interests. Politicians like the radical left are wanting to mandate electric cars, green steel, green cement and etc by 2030 or 2050. The fix for these things do not exist but because they mandate green everything that makes it happen. One half truth is that electric furnaces can simply turned on and off at anytime and that can happen if business warrants this or with rolling brownouts it is possible. What is wrong is that when you turn one out, thermal stresses in the refractory brick every time you cool one off damages the brick lining in the hearths and this heating and cooling that goes on while turning the furnace off and on creates thermal shock. This makes micro cracks and the bricks move around and causes furnace failure. Steel furnaces run much better being hot all the time. Another is that there simply not enough electricity to run steel mills at times during the year which makes down time and causes unhappy customers and layoffs for the labor. This summer, the power regulators in Texas have asked owners of electric cars not to charge their cars at times because A/C units were keeping homes cool from the excess heat outside and there was brownouts throughout the state this summer and electric steel mills also had to curtail production. Converting our infrastructure to electric is expensive and we are the ones to pay for it and I have not bought into carbon being bad for the planet, especially from a standpoint of people losing a lot of jobs over technology that does not exist as of now in spite of self proclaimed experts that are not experts at all. As far as your interest in a hybrid electric arc/induction furnace is not practical in steel production and you might be thinking of an electric arc plasma furnace that creates very high temperatures. Plasma is a electrically charged gas that is focused into a vessel with scrap but these are small furnaces that are specialized in recovering platinum or other investment metals from scrap computers or catalytic converters on cars. I have been gone for almost 20 years from steel but I think the gas is either argon or some other inert gas that is electrically charged and the flame is hotter than the surface of the sun. This is not a high production furnace either. Right now I think we the people pay too much for energy for our homes now but the changes to electric and away from fossil fuels will make us pay much more for energy in the future. Some carbon based integrated steel mills can recover waste gasses from coke ovens and blast furnaces and send them to a combined cycle gas turbine electric generating plant that can produce way over 500-900 megawatts of electricity that can power a big steel mill with no outside electricity but no one talks about that. We don't do it much in the US but Brazil has such a plant. Japan, China and So. Korea utilizes this technology. Everything is being politicized in our country to the point that we are destroying ourselves. Companies have an incentive on modernizing but government mandates it and government messes it all up. When steel companies do it, they increase their profits for them to pay for modernization and reward investors in their companies. Instead government does it and throws taxpayer money to steel companies and mandate things that are presently aren't possible. The Green People that have taken environmental to a level of a religion and have closed minds on science and technology. We are so messed up.

[@trueriver1950]

@@richardallison8745 did you watch the video before commenting? Industrial scale is just 8 years away with this process and others are about as close -- true it's not tomorrow but now is it as distant as you seem to think. It's less than one decade, not many decades. If you have specific knowledge about why their timeline is mistaken please share it -- but 40 years experience in the soon to be obsolete tech gives you no advantage over the person who is new to the industry. You come over like the manufacturers of steam locos just after WW2 when Diesels were already on the horizon. We've always done it that way and we always will. Ten years later and stream locos were being scraped after well under their design lives. If you want a 4th generation in the steel industry encourage your sons and or daughters to go into green steel or they will be redundant half way through their working lives, like the guys who were expert at loco boilers...

[@jasonhaymanonthedrawingboard]

@@richardallison8745 basically arc welder being supersize. Mig is usually argon. Tig is fairly similar. When Tata steel folded here in the uk. It was because the government had it hand so far up the company backside. they didn’t have room to manoeuvre. Tata we’re looking to modernise uk steel production. until production cost were the thing that got them in the end. They moth ball several plants before it went down hill. I reckonise it not easy. frankly work give most people an aneurysm. The thinking there, the execution is not. Sadly! Gas turbine would be a good stop gap. Especially if power on bio digestion. Everything that can be thrown in would do the trick. There still the odd third world nation that cool using dung. For steel that would have to be a big digester. As for the refractory I had wondered how much thermal stress would play a part? Having watch accidents unfold on video where cracks when a miss an tones of molten steel goes Everywhere. Never seen guys run so fast. I know that refractory can be carbon based within elements that stabilise composition once heated. Most guy might know of Maurice wards starlite intumescent system of carbon foam. NASA used burn bone to shield the satellite observing cmes. Though how that would work for steel is anyone guess? As for the carbon bad thing? It because of Co2 that earth is not a snowball. 4% atmospheric co2 can sustain more aboral life. Which is more o2 at the end of the day. Most of the coal beds were made because the atmosphere was rich in Co2. I’ve heard estimates from 15-20%. Oxygen was far higher at 26%. nitrogen in our atmosphere is mainly due to life. More over its decomposition. Yes I agree that a lot more that could be done. I get the I don’t like the constant nagging by government. Just want to do the Job and improve incrementally. Slow steady win race. Also K.I.S.S. I’ve heard of old jet turbines being converted for use. That another story entirely. It sounds like state side that Bidens green drive isn’t working according to plan? If supply can’t meet demand? It like someone dunked them in the deep end with nothing more than a ball point pen for company. If someone can access the materials? then the whole switch becomes easier? With the western nations as they are saddled with eye watering debts. I doubt it going to happen tomorrow? Though I Dare dream it! Heck if you ask the military nicely they might loan a few turbines? National security ground. If you feel ballsy? I know somewhere in Arizona there is grave yard full of planes. They want the steel you need something to make it? They would turn up just for giggles. Sqaudies in a steel plant. Talk is cheap effort what’s needed. Plus it cleans up opportunity. Roping in the National guard might help? Best anarchist mechanics. Problem? What problem, is usually the reply! I’ve even seen catalyst get mentioned as mean to turn Co2 back into hydrocarbons. So completely cyclical. Many way it could be done? Just not enough brain with the knowledge. Very sad indeed. If it not hit on multiple vector? Steel in Britain is likely to fold in the next ten. The rest of the world might be different? I know what watching it form over here. its been challenging for many plants to keep afloat. Let alone succeed. Britain’s used to be a major exporter of steel. One the decline happened it never seems to pick up the same glory it once had. Very testing time indeed.

[@richardmiller7887]

I am confused. Is the process smelting iron or producing steel. Constant references are made to iron in the video. How many Kwh/Tonne of product?, this is the important metric at the end of the day.

[@EngineeringwithRosie]

We did talk primarily about iron as that's the main part, with the most emissions normally. You can add carbon etc to the molten metal to get steel in the single process.

[@mjmeans7983]

What is the range of carbon content in the steel that this process can produce? Can this process produce steel grades with normal concentrations of trace materials? Can this process produce steel varieties chemically superior (in some way) to the traditional process?

[@MyStevieB]

mjmeans, because we don't use carbon in the production process, the iron produced with the MOE process is free of carbon. In a separate process step after the iron is tapped, steelmakers add other metals to convert the iron into steel. It then has the exact same properties as standard steel.

[@mjmeans7983]

@@MyStevieB Thank you very much. That explains why I was confused. The title of the video suggests that the new process for making steel, when it actually makes elemental iron, or iron oxide. When adding the additional processes needed to create steel from the elemental iron or iron oxide the new process produces is considered, is net CO2 produced more of less CO2 than the old process end to end? I'm wondering if the CO2 burden (or budget) is just being shifted to a later stage of steel production or if there is a net increase or decrease; and whether this new process is better utilized, at least initially, for elemental iron uses other than for steel production.

[@MyStevieB]

@@mjmeans7983 No, once you produce the iron carbon-free that benefit is upheld further down the processes. In the steps where steel products are made (like the rolling mill), all parameters remain the same. However, you don't need a pelletizing plant or a coke-making plant. The avoidance of this has other considerable environmental benefits too.

[@mjmeans7983]

@@MyStevieB Thank you very much for that explanation. I hope the technology can ultimately grow to be cost competitive without the need for government intervention.

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

Their research on this scale may help the liquid metal battery technology become ready for manufacturing.