Coffee Roasting Development Phase

[@lens1736]

Hi Mike, I've watched and enjoyed several of your videos. I always assumed the background is a large classy poster showing red bricks and a coffee roaster. Today i realized it's an actual roaster when i noticed your reflection move in the roaster.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Yep, real roaster with a vinyl brick backdrop. I do most of my videos in the basement where I roast. I’ve got quite a few videos of me roasting on the 500 gram. Thanks for watching. I’m glad you are enjoying them!

[@mclearncustomguns9835]

Thanks for your expertise. I found it very interesting that your development time with the Pacamara was 11%. I just spent some time with Gold Mountain Coffee Growers and he was showing me how he roasts Pacamara. His development time was also 11%. TRT was 9:52. 1st crack was 8:44. The coffee was excellent.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

I’m glad you enjoyed my video. Yea, i e found that many of my roasts are between 11-17% development. So the development time on his roast was 1 minute and eight seconds. That aligns perfectly with a light roast. Was it a honey process?

[@RodrigoBrito68]

Your videos have been paramount to take me from total confusion and apathy to grasping what I could start doing to move out of the standard profiles of my Kaffeligic, which I don’t like. Thank you.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for watching Rodrigo. I’m glad my videos have been helpful. I hope my profile series helps you with your roasting journey!

[@mhpjii]

Excellent, Mike. Thanks.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@fadyna3]

Great video, thank you!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for the encouragement and for watching my video!

[@岳霖吳]

You are the best, Mike. Keep roasting!!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for watching and your kind words!

[@mmortada1978]

Amazing video thanks for sharing us your experience

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Glad my videos have helped. Thanks for watching.

[@shanewilson2152]

Thanks for yor advice Mike, great to hear from you.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Your welcome Shane!

[@shanewilson2152]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab hi Mike, whats the capacity of your coffee roaster?

[@GoTellJesusSaves]

Something I just learned today... I had roasted some coffee and decided that it was too lightly roasted, the acidity wasn't developed and it was a bit harsh to the tongue. I've continued to taste it each day and the flavor is continually developing. But today I remembered something concerning brewing coffee that, for some reason, I wasn't considering with this roast... I tried agitating it more in the Aeropress by about 50% (From 10 seconds to 15 seconds). 😲 Wow! 😲 What a difference that made in the taste and aroma experience I had with this roast! It has become my favorite of the 3 different roasts of that same coffee on the same day. While it was by far the least favorite the previous 4 days. Sometimes a little variation in brewing technique and development time after the roast will completely change the experience with a coffee, taking it from terrible to tremendous!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

I'm beginning to learn that as well. We can roast great coffee but if our brewing is off then we miss the opportunity to experience great coffee. You experience just the opposite. Your roast was off a bit but through brewing you experienced some great coffee.... amazing. Imagine if you got it right for both brewing and roasting. Do you think the coffee would be better? This is really interesting.....

[@GoTellJesusSaves]

Yes! I definitely think I could have extended both the maillard and development by a few seconds and came out with a more balanced roast and a better tasting cup. Still yet, I'm stunned by how much difference a few days rest and a few seconds brew agitation can make on a coffee. After this experience, I would no longer consider that roast negative in any way... Simply different and offering something unexpected from the coffee. I think that I discovered something delightful about this coffee that broke some rules that I had made concerning roasting and also this coffee. 😁

[@shanewilson2152]

Great vid Mike ☕☕

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks 👍 Glad it was helpful!

[@nedscheebly731]

Great points, for light roasts I find cranking the charge drop (i'm using a aillio bullet) to about 230 and having P8 and F2 for the first 1:30 tend to help me reach that yellowing phase under 50% of whole roast time. Wonderful video thanks

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for sharing Ned. That is interesting. With that charge temp and power setting it looks like you’re aiming for a shorter total roast time. How much coffee are you roasting and what is your total roast time?

[@vahidgholami5092]

Another great video! Thanks for sharing your knowledge Mike! Really appreciated.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

You bet! Glad it was helpful for you.

[@LivingTheDreamCoffeeRoasters]

Watched this video a couple times. My first couple batches I wasn’t paying attention to the ratios just followed a profile and dropped when it hit the mark. Wasn’t happy with the product. After breaking down my times I was over 25% on one and 12% on the other. My last 4 batches were right around 41/40/19 and much better.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Nice Job @LTDCoffeeRoasters - Keep in mind this ratio works for your specific coffee on your roaster with the total roast time you used. If you change your total roast time you will need to evaluate your phase percentages by tasting and making the necessary changes. Enjoy your coffee!

[@GoTellJesusSaves]

Every seed takes on heat a little differently. Even each seed within a specific batch. The craft of a coffee roaster is specifically that. To explore and expose the qualities of each seed in such a way to bring about the most beautiful flavors and characteristics of those seeds. I would say this is the great pleasure of the coffee roaster. To be able to do this and have the ones who will drink it, smell it, see it to truly enjoy and appreciate what they're experiencing. And hopefully share it with friends. Thank you for sharing your experience with us! Blessings and peace to you, friend.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for your comments. You are so correct. I find it amazing how many people it takes to experience great coffee. From the farm who plants and cultivates the crop to the pickers, processors, importers, roasters and then barista, so many hands touch coffee. Then, experiencing that coffee with others is really a joy!

[@GoTellJesusSaves]

Absolutely! I'm so excited about visiting a coffee farm one day and spending some time with the farmers and processers. I would even like to work a season beside them to really get to know them and coffee a little more closely. Sharing is the best!

[@UrbanCamo28]

Thanks again for the great information.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

You bet! Thank you for watching.

[@HaekalAlchatieb]

thank you very much sir

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Most welcome Haekal. Thank you for watching my video!

[@EdGodoyPlana]

Thanks again for another great video! Still learning and making mistakes! I have ordered a few pounds of Gaisha coffee from Sweet María but I am going to hold off on roasting it until I feel more comfortable with the roasting on the Behmor. Thanks again!!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for your encouragement Eduardo!

[@garygardens]

Good video, Mike. Very thorough and informative. The key to me is experiment with the phases as you say. You can surprise yourself, sometimes good sometimes bad, but always fun.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Well said Gary. I "test" the middle phase time with every new coffee and am often surprised!

[@dlamoreaux1]

Great video. Keeping it straightforward and concise. Not rambling.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for watching and for your comment David.

[@osamaalharbi9859]

thank you Mick for the nice video I can see you're developing your skills more and more in roasting it's interesting that how the Rate of Development is not fixed to 20 or 15 or any other number each coffee is different, each roaster is different what is the smell that I should be looking for after first crack which will let me decide to end the roast? I have been roasting with my friend on his 1 kg toper roaster, and now I have my mill city 6 kg roaster, it's completely different experience and completely different way to roast also, different coffees reacts differenty, washed different from natural I think there are no rule for roasting, just some guidelines it's interesting how roasting is keep it up Mike

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello Osama, yes, I continue to learn. The Development Time Ration (DTR) is very important but based on my experience so far, can differ from coffee to coffee and ultimately the roasting style preference. My Pacamara was evidence enough for me to understnand that. After first crack begins, you should notice sweetness, spices, savory notes as well as fruitiness. So as you continue to smell, you will notice the notes changing. A good exercise would be to smell, write it down, wait 15 seconds, smell again, write it down, and repeat until you drop the coffee. You will notice some notes disappear and other notes appear during this process. It is quite revealing. Changing roasting equipment is always a learning curve BUT the basics of roasting, understanding the phases of coffee and how to manipulate the flavor profile all remain the same. The big difference is how fast or slow your new roaster responds to changes in air and heat, as well as roasting with larger batches. The natural and washed coffees do seem to react differently to heat. There are rules but it might be better to call them guidelines right? haha.... Thanks for your comments and encouragement!

[@alaahusain8741]

Thanks

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Glad you enjoyed my video. Thank you for watching!

[@LivingTheLifeRetired]

Hi Mike, great video. I was wondering if you have or have ever used a color meter in helping you assess your final product. I wonder what effect chaff would have on the color reading.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

That’s a great question. I have never used a color meter but would like to. Moisture loss, temperature, and color are my current means to measure. I would imagine chaff would influence a color meter reading.

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

Have you seen one of Mike's last few videos? The machine thar measured density and roast level, I think. DiFluid was it called maybe... That seems like great tool.

[@keithpoolehomecoffeeroasti489]

Great video! I think for beginners, of all the numerous things you can focus on when roasting, I recommend fine tuning end roast level / color using time in development, and the temp differences between first crack temp and ending temp. For example, stick with 1:30 development time and vary ending temp by maybe +15, +20, +25 degrees above 1c temp, just to see differences.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Keith, thank you for your comment and tips for roasting. I think you make an interesting point related to the development phase. This phase and the suggestions you make about the ending temp will really change the flavor profile of the coffee. This is a good exercise for all roasters to experiment with. The other big element in flavor profile is the browning phase. The time between dry end and first crack will draw out all of the wonderful flavors if it is not rushed or dragged out. I see the development phase as an opportunity to shape the flavors developed in the browning phase and then tone down the acidity, add more sweetness or reduce sweetness, all done by the length of time from first crack till drop AND the temperature at drop. So for me, 15-25 degrees is a huge swing in the end result. Maybe that is a good thing for those who are trying to figure things out. Once you do figure things out and find the roast level you enjoy, what does your temp range at drop look like? For me my range narrows down to about a 5 degrees difference based on the type of coffee I am roasting (natural, washed, origin, bean size, density). Wow, great tip Kieth and I fully support that idea for a new roaster who is trying to see how temperature affects the roast. Thanks again for sharing!

[@keithpoolehomecoffeeroasti489]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab currently mostly roasting on a Fresh Roast so my 'bean temp' probe actually measures a lot of air, maybe mostly air, in addition to beans. For me the delta of fc temp and 'bt' is around 20 - 25. On my Quest (small drum sample roaster), I usually hit fc around 390 and dropped 410 to 415.

[@shanewilson2152]

Once again Mike, a great video. It gives me a better idea on the development phase.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Shane. Glad it was helpful. How is the Behmor treating you?

[@shanewilson2152]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab the Behmor is a great entry-level roaster, lm loving it. Most of my roast are done on the p3 setting. I get good results from that program.

[@MRaouf-nr9ou]

Thanks, Mike That was very helpful if we talk about Temperature vs Time in roasting level what is the best practice to control balanced results

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for your kind comments and watching my video. Yes, temperature vs time influences so many aspects to our roasts. Those who desire to roast for espresso should consider and learn about the impacts of total roast time and temperature!

[@mikedenson6047]

I'm just getting around to watching this. Great job, very helpful, but I'll have to watch it several times. Are you still considering a Artisian video for newbies? Without a lot of experience with Artisian, how do I know how long a roast should go, so I can know when I reach 45% for drying phase, 35% for browning phase, and 20% for development phase? Is there a way to track the percentage's in Artisian. I know it tells you at the end, but I need to know while I'm roasting. Thanks again Mike, great job. Your video's just get better and better.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Mike. Yes, I do plan to do an intro video for artisan at some point in the near future. Yes, there is data that shows times for the phase you are in. You can modify heat based on those numbers. It is literally a moving target. If you watch this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/injOeWWCodxnpZo you will see I use an arrow when showing artisan so you can see the time estimated for dry end and middle phase time. Thanks for your comments and encouragement. I'm glad these videos are helpful for you.

[@mikedenson6047]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks Mike. I've spent several hours today watching your video's, taking notes, rewinding and rewatching. I feel like I'm back in college. Where in the past I would use a different roaster every time I roasted, and the processes got confusing. So I've settled on the Hottop running Artisan, and plan to stick with it till this all makes more sense to me. Wish I lived next door to you, I'd be a real pest :-) I have watched the video you linked, but will watch it again.

[@tomschmude4815]

Another Great Video Mike! Thank You! Question: Is there a relationship to the origin/elevation these beans are grown at in this scenario you experienced with the Pacamara, or is there anything else that would help us know which coffee beans would be in need of a shorter development phase or is it entirely learned by 'Sight/smell/senses?'

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Tom, great question. The pacamara was a natural I believe and I was trying not to “roast out the origin”. When I roast naturals I prefer to roast on the lighter side of medium so I get the fruit from the processing as well as the notes from the origin with less of the toasty notes. The same goes for coffees that are floral or fruity. This is why we roast specialty coffee at home. We can craft the beans to our own tastes. Several variables regarding the beans and our roasting will influence flavors including varietal, region/origin, altitude, processing, roast level, profile and then brew type.

[@shanewilson2152]

Hi Mike, when roasting on my behmor, can l use the faster speed on the drum during the roast.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Shane, Yes, that will help create more airflow, which will aid in roasting the coffee using hot air movement. So, drum speed on the Behmor really becomes important once you hit dry end and begin the middle phase. Unless you have too much momentum and need to slow the roast down. So, use the drum speed at your discretion during the browning phase and the development phase to help you speed up the roast. Some people turn it on high from the beginning and that is up to you but it is a nice feature to experiment with and see how your drum speed on the Behmor will affect your roasts.

[@nickclancy5282]

Mike, I’m having some trouble knowing when to drop my coffee. I’m using a quest M3 electric drum. When my bean probe (analog) reads 400F, that usually signals beginning of first crack. I’m wanting to take the roast all the way through first crack, but I’ve already reached my target end temp. Is it okay to drop coffee mid first crack when the “popcorn” is still popping so to speak? Would love your insight on this. Thanks, always enjoy your videos!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Nick, your roaster looks amazing. First, to answer your question about dropping during first crack; Yes you can. I do it but it is usually towards the end of first crack. It all comes down to the roast level and the flavor profile I am after. I think it might be interesting to look at this from a different angle. It seems like the problem is you are getting to your drop temp too quick. So I would suggest you lower your heat a little more in the middle/browning phase. Are you monitoring times and temps in a log or are you using logging software?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Sorry, I hit the reply to quick. So, if you lower the heat a little, then when you hit first crack, your rate of rise will be lower and that buys you more time to get through crack and still meet your target temp. Does that make sense. If you can, share your total roast time, dry end time and first crack time. Also, what type of coffee are you roasting? Lastly, I wonder what would happen if you used the meat thermometer with the extension probe in place of the analog thermometer? Have you seen the one I used in a couple of my popper videos? It’s like 14 bucks. That might be interesting.

[@nickclancy5282]

Okay, yeah that makes a lot of sense. I think too, the latency of my burners probably means I need to lower heat even earlier heading into crack. Thanks a bunch!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

let me know how that works out!

[@vahidgholami5092]

Are there any "Classic profiles" for light, medium or dark roast that can be applied to any green and get palatable results? Thanks again Mike!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

That is a great question Vahid. in a general sense yes there are classic profiles. Based on total roast time and ending temperature you basically shorten or stretch out the roast to achieve different results. I understand what you mean when you mention 'light, medium and dark" but you can have different flavor profiles using the same ending temperature with different roast lengths. So, in a way, you could shorten your roast for a lighter body brighter more acidic profile or stretch out your roast and present a more darker nutty, caramel-like roast all using the same ending temperature. A better way might be to consider the end result of what you are hoping to taste. If you were to be roasting an ethiopian dry process coffee, I don't think you would be roasting that dark right? And most people who roast a sumatra might not roast it light. So I think much of this starts with the person who is roasting and the type of coffee. They don't like acidic coffee so they stay away from ethiopians and favor say.... a papa new ginea or some other indonesian coffee. Others might have differing opinions on this but at this point in my understanding of roasting that is the best answer I can offer at this point. This topic is discussed a little in these two clips: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hpawkIWwosaakK8 and then Rob answered that question here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eaqraKZ6l5pobKM I hope my answer was helpful.

[@vahidgholami5092]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab It was very helpful indeed. Thanks

[@jluspo]

Thank you for a great channel and information. I'm learning a lot. A question: provided that the phase percentages and the drop temperature are the same for two roast of the same batch, how does the total roast time affect the taste of the coffee? If one roast is 9 minutes and the other is 12 minutes and both was dropped at 410 degrees, will I taste the difference? I'm roasting on a Kaldi Fortis.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi @Jluspo. The short answer is yes, absolutely. I talked about this here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hpawkIWwosaakK8 and then Rob answered that question here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eaqraKZ6l5pobKM it really boils down to the preference of the roaster. Shorter roast times tend to produce lighter brighter coffee and longer roast times tend to produce heavier, nutty, caramel-like coffees. In reality, an ethiopian coffee would probably be better with a shorter roast time and a sumatra coffee better with a longer roast time. Thanks for your question and comments. Are you enjoying your Kaldi?

[@jluspo]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks! I will watch those posts. I really enjoy the Kaldi. It's my first non-DIY roaster. The first one was a breadmaker with a heatgun, the second was a DIY drum roaster but I have to lift the whole thing to drop the beans ~ 40 pounds worth. One thing about the Kaldi is that the ROR graph is very finicky. I use the trier and the ROR graph gets a bump. I'm still learning.

[@chuckster623]

The coffee I brew from the coffee beans I roast often has a cloudiness to it. I usually wait two days after roasting before grinding and brewing coffee. The roast I'm referring to was roasted in a modified popcorn popper. What are possible reasons for this cloudiness? When I grind store bought Eight O'clock Colombian beans , the resulting coffee has no cloudiness. Obviously I am doing something wrong. In the cloudy coffee roast I am referencing, FC was at 5:07 at 389 degrees per my thermocouple and the Drop was at 7:07 with a temperature of 398 degrees. Is there a particular phase that I'm most probably messing up? I brew using an AeroPress. I had thought the paper filter would filter out any residue that would make the coffee cloudy.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Chuck. I thought you were roasting on the Behmor 1600 Plus right? Can you be a little more specific about the "cloudiness"? are you referring to visually cloudy or cloudy tasting? Please explain a bit more. Also, what type of coffee are you roasting? What was your "dry end" time? If you see a visual cloudiness are they coffee oils? Paper filter would reduce silt and some oils. How fine are you grinding?

[@chuckster623]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab I roast with both a Behmor 1600Plus and a popcorn popper. Lately I've been using the popper more because I modified it to be able to control both the fan and heat(I'm a tinkerer). Also, I think that I'm learning more about coffee roasting by using the popper. I've added a thermocouple that is in the bean mass and I plan to tie it to Artisan. The cloudy coffee came from Ethiopian Gera Genji Challa beans. The coffee was visually cloudy. I drink my coffee black and I could see the cloudiness in the cup. I don't think it was oily. My grind is on the finer side of medium. I presently have difficulty determining when the drying phase ends, so I don't know when the drying phase ended and the browning phase began. However, I had the heat on maximum until first crack which means I probably rushed through the drying and browning phases(am I answering my own question?). I appreciate the time you have taken to respond to questions I've asked after watching your videos. I find your videos on coffee roasting the best on KZbin. I hope that eventually I'll be able to apply everything I've learned so I can enjoy a better cup of joe.

[@andreamunari5800]

TY😍

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

You are welcome .

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

Hey Mike, This video popped up on my feed. Would you check it out and maybe we can discuss the information later? I opened a new bag last night and roasted 200g. It is east Timor, idk if that is the place but thats how mrs kg translated it to me. I feel im hitting the beans with too much heat. They have specks of dark on them. No tipping or scorth marks. But i feel bumping the heat is needed to get them to coast into 1st crack. Maybe they can handle a touch lower heat in drying, then bumping the heat a bit during browning then at 1st crack drop the heat and let them ride through. I think of what you say with the roast being like a roller coaster. I made a 1:15 clever dripper with 91°c water today and the coffee sucked. It left a bad taste, was idk almost too syrupy... maybe. You know my situation so the grinder i use as much as im thankful to have it, is not that good so the grind was a bit coarse but had dust. Idk if it was bad because of the grinder, my ratio or my roast. What are your thoughts? Have you seen the new clever dripper? Is clever dripper the only steep and release brewer you like or would you use other ones? They have a couple that are zero bypass and there is one that has a needle valve and twists to give flow control. Whst are your thoughts and ideas. Is there a video you can suggest? We both know i have already watched it many times 😊 but maybe i need to hear the info again. Cool man. Have a good weekend. I look forward to hearing from you.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi KG, I’ve not seen the new clever dripper. I have seen other immersion brewers like the harrio switch. Honestly I’ve been brewing a lot with the Kalita. It is a pour-over type filter brewer. I’ve been spending more time learning about brewing variables and how I can improve. It’s been a real eye opener. So, for now, I don’t have a helpful suggestion with the clever dripper . Sorry about that. What other brewers to you own? Just curious. If you have black spots on your beans then it is probably because of too high of heat. Do you have a way to measure your temperatures? Did you say you were using a laser thermometer? I think finding the right charge temp will really help your momentum.

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab hey, thank you for your reply. The metal cube roaster I have has no way I can think of to use a thermometer. An IR would just reflect the outside metal. I have marked the stove dial like you suggested. I have a black pour over cone with built-in filter, it's American Press, malita 1 cup flat bottom brewer, moka pot I got in Italy, Clever Dripper and coffee Gator espresso appliance. In the morning I just want coffee fast and easy. I fill my grinder and I use the "It's American Press" but lately I want a bit more volume so I use the clever dripper. After my stomach pain meds kick in I'll make my wife espresso with frothed milk and ill make myself one for my 2nd cup. 4pm coffee is wild. I fully understand what your going through with the desire to be more proficient in pour over. I can make a pour over but nope... I'll use CD or "It's American Press." Pour over is 2 inconsistent and everyone has a different recipe. That channel Armise (I don't know the spelling) and of course LH has great information almost information overload. I need to roast today. I'll try hitting the beans with softer heat. Did you happen to see that video I sent you from coffee with April? My post is on your development video. I mean no disrespect by suggesting channels to you as a creator, I feel you appreciate information no matter the source. I'll let you know how this next batch comes out. Stay well. Have a great week.

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab that's it!!! I quit. I'm done no more. Imma go get nescafe and 25 sugars and flavored creamer. Better yet, I'm going to get a pod coffee pot. OK... ok... I'm not done. I'll never get a pod machine. I'm just pissed off. Mike, I don't get it at all. I just roasted and I was soft with the heat. I extended each phase and pulled right in the middle of 1st crack but these beans still look toasty and darker than I want. I'm going for an even light brown with light brown crease. Maybe, my charge temp was again too high. Man, do you have a video on roasting light? I'm so frustrated and not having fun today. Idk... we will see how they taste tomorrow when I cup both batches from today. Any suggestions? Thank you big bro.

[@luigicollins3954]

Excellent video Mike. I have really benefited from your introduction and deeper description of each of the three coffee roasting phases. They are a series that many of us should review periodically to keep the whole roasting picture clear in our minds. For me, what has become increasingly clearer as I roast is the importance of using our senses of sight, smell, and hearing to guide us in roasting. I have had many roasts that were technically done correctly, but were not so great tasting. And in many of those I neglected something at least one those three senses was trying to tell me. So it is like those three senses contribute to our most enjoyable sense of all - taste!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Lou, thank you for the encouragement. I'm glad the video was helpful. Yes, using our senses gives us much more context when we are looking at a graph during our roast. As you mentioned in a previous video, watching bean color and seeing the bean size change are huge clues as to the roast progression. Especially in the development phase, smell and color are huge indicators we need to craft great tasting coffee! Thanks for your comments.

[@kevinmonceaux2101]

I'm just getting started with roasting, and using a Behmor 2000AB Plus. With the Behmor, if one is trying to hit "cool" early enough to compensate for the beans continuing to roast a bit as cooling starts instead of dropping the beans, how does one determine the time the development phase actually ends?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Kevin, If the coffee is cooling in the roaster I would say when the b temp reaches 230 degrees you can consider that cooled enough where the beans are not roasting anymore. So, how long does it take for your roaster to cool to that b temp? That is how I would determine the time the development phase ends. In my experience, using the cool button and the open door, you could add between 15-20 seconds on to the roast. Ambient temps will influence that time. I like to get the beans cool asap. So, you might not like my answer but I would open the door to your roaster to cool the beans down to that 230 quickly. I know some chaff will get out but the door wide open helps cool quickly.

[@kevinmonceaux2101]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab I like your answer just fine. I've only performed one roast so far in my Behmor. With that roast, I did open the door to cool the beans down more quickly. I ended up with a little chaff on the counter and floor, but it took less than a minute to clean up with a shop vac. I also vacuumed the chaff out of the chaff tray and interior of the Behmor, which didn't take much more time. I know it would blow a lot more chaff around, but I've wondered it aiming an external fan at the Behmore and turning it on as the door is opened to circulate even more air would be worth it to cool the beans down even quicker. I have a table fan and/or a stand fan that would probably work well. I also have a hand held "air duster vacuum" designed for blowing dust out of PCs that I could use to circulate a lot of air. There's no telling how far chaff might blow with that thing.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

ideally, when you are ready to end your roast you have heat gloves on, open the door, pull the drum and dump the coffee into a cooling tray. You can find a nice inexpensive cooling tray on Amazon. The end of roast time would be shorter.

[@habibihabti1149]

Hey Mike, one question. When i want to have a roast right on the onset of 2nd crack so a higher end temp. You are still in the 20-25 dtr?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

That is where it gets interesting, Habib. I would encourage you to experiment with 2 or 3 different roasts, each one with the same ending temperature. The only difference is the total roast time. In order to accomplish this, you will require more energy upfront for a shorter roast than a longer roast. Because of this, the phase percentages will look different for all 3 phases. When tasting, compare sweetness and body and see how they are different. Which roaster are you using? Total roast time range for a drum roaster could be anywhere from nine min and thirty seconds to say, 14 minutes…. You might be able to Control DTR and keep it in that range. With the shorter roast you are more likely to have a shorter dtr (lots of momentum), compared to the longer roast.

[@habibihabti1149]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab thank you for advice, i roast on a 1kg drum roaster. I would like to roast a full city + roast, right before 2nd crack. I had some problems with accidity when i was to fast in the roast even when i roasted darker, my middle phase was a bit to short. When i streched it a bit dry @ 5,45 fc @ 9:45 i had a 29% DTR and they tastet a bit flat

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Habib - Make sure you setup your profile so your ROR is always descending. A common problem is to allow the ROR to flatten out after First crack because you need momentum to reach 2nd crack. This flat ROR is known to cause that flatness. How long (time) was your development phase?

[@habibihabti1149]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab my dry phase 5,48 (41,8%), development phase was 4,08 minutes (29,8 %), FC at 9,56 abd drop time 13,52 (28,4 % DTR) I will try not to flattern the roi but to stretch it a little bit, still declining but not as hard to keep the momentum alive

[@OldMotherLogo]

It sounds like the acidity and sweetness are linked, maybe not directly but they are affected in the same way by heat and time. If one wants to decrease acidity but maintain the sweetness, is this possible? Or do the same factors that decrease acidity also decrease sweetness? Is this something that would be more influenced by the bean itself?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Sweetness derives from compounds forming during the growing process so picking the right bean is a huge factor. The roasting process also enhances sweetness through caramelization . If you don’t want acidity. I would seek out coffees that are generally less acidic. The funny part is high altitude specialty coffee is generally more sweet than lower less dense coffee. This is because of the cooler temperatures. The bean grows slower and the end result is a denser more sweet bean. The term “sweet” is subjective. Less bitter is a better way to describe this. Some of the most acidic coffees are high altitude dense coffees. The compounds react when applied heat is applied over time, creating a whole host of reactions. Generally speaking the longer and darker you roast the less acidity AND the more bitterness. The compounds begin to break down during the roasting process, hence less acidity and less sweetness. This is difficult to describe and I don’t fully understand when or how much of these reactions change except by my experience tasting coffee at different roast levels and in different phase configurations. Whewwww, too long of a sentence. Finding the right bean and roast level will get you where you want to be. Consider just a little longer roast or a slightly higher end temp to knock down the acidity. It could be 15 seconds or a couple of degrees that make the difference.

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

I saw a video today where a guy brewed using a v60 and used 3x the weight of the coffee for the bloom. After the bloom he switched cups and finished brewing in another cup. He then added just a bit extra water and added 10g of bloom water to the final cup. This was done to control the acidity. He also used 2 spoons to pull the bubbles from the top like he was cupping. It was pretty interesting. I don't remember the channel tho.

[@OldMotherLogo]

@@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat Sounds complicated but if you find the video again, please post a link. Meanwhile . . . I have taken to using a Clever Dripper and one of the things I notice is the amount of foam released during that bloom phase sometimes just churns up the coffee, it is so robust! It is hilarious!

[@billcoady4333]

Hi Mike, I am a very new coffee roaster (roasted about 2 pounds so far!) and I find your videos very informative, packed with information, but put in a way that even I can understand. :-) I do have a suggestion...like many people just starting out I am using "non traditional" roasting methods, so some of your information does not compute for me. But I would find it really useful to have video that actually SHOWS coffee roasting through the three phases. There are a few out there, but they don't do a great job. And just pulling beans with a sampler from a drum roaster is only somewhat helpful. I would love to see and *hear* a roast from beginning to end where the beans are visible the whole time. If I could suggest using an oven to do this (or even better a toaster oven with convection, check Sweet Maria's for method). You stressed using our senses to help determine the pace of the roast, but at this point, I am not sure exactly what I am looking for, listening for and trying to smell. I think a video of static beans where we can see them roasting in real time would be a great addition to your "phases" series. Thanks!

[@luigicollins3954]

Hi Bill, I have learned a great deal doing what you are asking - watching bean changes as a roast progresses. Mike has a great video on this channel that does show some of what you're looking for. It's called "Manual coffee roasting at home with a Behmor 1600 Plus." Electronic media can somewhat help with two of the three senses we need: seeing, and hearing. Unfortunately, smell cannot be. Other sites have some pretty good videos that might be helpful also, but you have to search for them.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Bill, thank you for your comments. Lou made a good suggeston to watch the "Manual Roasting on a Behmor" video. Another really good video that talks through the roasting process, showing the color and highlights smell, sound and color is this video - kzbin.info/www/bejne/jIW1o4KchNaYoNE which is the "aida batlle selection Award Winning Coffee" video. It really does give a nice overview. Ovens usually have a yellow light that makes it difficult to see what is going on. The video link I share lets you hear the cracking noise and is really the best I have at this point. I appreciate your suggestions for future video content. What are you roasting with currently? Do you have a toaster oven or convection oven to experiment with? Unfortunately I'm not able to do the static roast. Sorry about that.

[@siecuan]

Is medium dark or dark roast still on 20% development time? Because if yes, it’s mean the RoR on medium dark or dark roast development time is more a lot.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hello @Riswanto Wijaya , Thanks for your question. "Medium" or "Dark" would be better understood as an ending roast temperature and how dark the beans are. You can have a 20% development on a light roast. So, think about darkness of roast based on the color and temperature of the beans when they leave the roaster. Now for development. Think of development as a part of the roasting process. We break the roasting process into 3 parts The first part is the "Dry Phase" which is from the very beginning of the roast until the beans turn yellow in color. The second part is the "Browning Phase" which goes from the end of the dry phase through until first crack. The third part of the roast is the "Development Phase" which takes place from first crack until the beans leave the roaster Each phase serves a purpose and will influence the total roast. Each phase also has a % of the total roast time. The "20%" you mentioned is 20% of the total roast time. Depending on your roasting style, you will have different percentages of each phase. As you saw in my video, the development stage is used to complete the roasting process and balance out the cup. If you are trying to roast for less acidity then you would use a longer development time like 20%. If you are looking for a brighter more acidic coffee, then you might consider a shorter percentage like "15%" development. Ultimately, you are trying to keep an eye on two moving targets at the same time which are ending roast temperature and development percentage. I hope my reply has helped answer your question. Thanks for watching my video.

[@siecuan]

Yes, Medium or Dark is about ending roast temperature. But I mean should I reach the Dark roast ending temperature in 20% of total roast time? Or Dark roast can be good at 25-27% maybe? Refer to 20% on Dark roast, example: Total roast time: 12 minutes Drying phase on 5:00 (41.6%) I reach First crack on 190 Celcius 9:36 (38.3%) Second crack on 220 Celcius, and reach Dark Roast on 225 Celcius 12:00 (20% development time) Its mean coffee need 35 Celcius in 2:24 minutes from first crack to reach Dark roast, which is RoR after first crack it's should be about 14.58 celcius/ minutes to reach that 20% target (which it is very fast enough for RoR after first crack). On that case calculation, its impossible to reach RoR that high for development time. And it will make coffee burn to fast or uneven develop. I need more explanation about recommended development time and ratio on every roasting level. Because what I know, light roast can be on 16-20%, medium on 20-25%, dark roast (more than 25% maybe??). I know you are very capable on coffee roasting, I need to learn more from you, especially for medium dark/ dark roast development time 😊

[@siecuan]

By the way, I'm from Indonesia. And very nice to meet you in this channel 😊

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

It's really a matter of personal choice Riswanto. I think your ending roast temp at 20% is good but you should experiment with longer development. So, if you want to maintain the same temperature, you need to slow the roast a little more by dropping your Rate of Rise a little more than you are now while you are in the development phase. That gives you a longer roast time, same drop temperature and a higher phase percentage.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@@siecuan nice to meet you too.

[@jestonhopper5137]

So im struggling with a honey processed coffee. Dominican Ramirez estate red honey process. I’m not getting a lot of the fruit notes of pomegranate and strawberry. I get to dry end by five minutes. My question is how do you know what to aim for as an end time for a roast. I know it depends on the bean and origin where a Kenyan or Ethiopian will be more dense. But I’ve tried 10 mins/12 mins/14 mins. The 10 mins roast was underdeveloped. 10 and 12 mins were over roasted. I dont get any roasty flavor and no char which is an improvement from when started with this coffee a month ago. And drop temp between all three roasts was 406, 410, 415. Any suggestions mike. Love your vids by the way definitely has helped me a ton. Using the hive with digital dome

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Jetson, thanks for sharing your experience with the Hive. I appreciate the details you are sharing. In order for me to try and answer the flavor question, can you please share the times of each phase.. You said dry in 5, but what about first crack? It could be your time in the browning phase and development phase may need some tweaking. I love the digital hive.

[@jestonhopper5137]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab so sorry yes time to first crack is 830 the other two roasts that were longer first crack was 9 mins and the third roast was 10 mins to first crack

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for the info. This is interesting, you are looking for fruit including pomegranate and strawberry and you said your 10 minute roast was under developed at 406 degrees. Honestly that is confusing to me. I'm sure I don't have all of the information. I would have suggested you drop your coffee at a lower temp and check your phase percentages so you shorten your development phase a couple percent. But hearing your coffee was under developed causes me to wonder a few things. 1. Could you please break open a few beans from the 406 temp and tell me if the color of the bean is the same inside and out? 2. What type of roaster are you using? 3. Can you give me just the event times for the 10 minute roast please. 4. Tell me how you are brewing this coffee. What method, grind size if possible and water temp. 5. This might sound silly, but what is your elevation where you are roasting?

[@jestonhopper5137]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab some beans are lighter internally then outside. But not all of the beans are like that. The majority are slightly darker internally then they are outside. Roaster is the hive with digital dome. I forgot to mention I am using a propane turkey fryer as my heat source with full control over my heat as I have an electric cook top in my house. I use a medium heat and raise and lower the hive throughout the roast I don’t adjust the gas. End of dry for ten mins roast was 5 mins First crack 8 mins 40 sec Developed for 1 mins 20 secs and ended the roast at that time which was ten mins. Was about halfway through first crack when I dropped the beans to cool at the 10 mins. At the 406 temp. Brewing with chemex medium grind. Variable temp kettle with brew temp 200 degrees F. Using 1:16 ratio 30 grams coffee to 500 grams of water. My water is hard water I live in Pennsylvania so definitely elevation I would think is ok The Dominican red honey process coffee I am using is from cafe kreyol Ramirez estate I do appreciate your help Mike. And love your vids. I have been able to nail that Ethiopian sweet Lilly I had spoke to you a while back about. Filled my garage with sweet blueberry aroma and carried through the flavor. Same roast profile

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

​@@jestonhopper5137 Thanks for answering. Your roast phase times look really good. This profile will help bring out brighter coffee profile. 5 Minutes Dry end 50% 8:30 First Crack 38% 10 Minutes Drop 15% development But you say the inside is under developed. So, the first thing you can try is to lower your ROR (back off the heat a little more during development phase so you can get a little more time for the coffee to roast. Don't stall the roast. You may need to steal some time from the dry phase by shortening that by 5% to lengthen the development 4 or 5%. The next thing I would do is to take your existing roast (the 10 minute one) that you have been drinking and use a french press or clever dripper to brew instead of the chemex. I think your grind might be a little large and you are under extracting but I'm not a chemex professional Jetson. So, by trying immersion brewing, we can remove the extraction issue as part of our test. You might want to increase your water temp a couple of degrees as well. Cooler the water the less extraction. I have talked with a couple of different people in the last few weeks who moved away from a pourover to immersion as a test and they were shocked at the different flavors they could now taste so you might want to give it a try. The immersion removes the mistakes causing for brewing like grind issues. As far as coffee type, a honey process coffee will roast a little quicker than a washed (usually) and is sounds like your getting muted notes so i'm leaning towards the brewing issues? I could be wrong Jetson but that's about all I can think of so far without being there with you. Sorry.

[@MrJeepStone]

using DTR is a bad idea in my opinion, because it doesnt take into account what is happening before crack. Its much better to use time after crack instead imo

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for your comment MrJeepStone and for watching my video. Are you using to roast your coffee? Does it have logging software. Checkout my video on "how to roast sweet and flavorful coffee" if you get a chance. I talk about the importance of all the middle phase (the time after dry and before first crack. This "browning" phase will work in concert with the development phase to help craft some great coffee. I understand why you are saying this because the first 3 or 4 years I roasted coffee I used first crack as my starting point and I would roast about 2 minutes before I dropped the coffee. This would give first crack a chance to finish and i would get the development I want........ most of the time. Generally speaking, most professional roasters rely on phase percentages to craft their coffee. This includes the development phase. It isn't a guarantee of development as Scott Rao puts it, but it is one of many indicators of how a roast progressed. The reason I promote Development Time Ration (DTR) is because the development timer method I used when i first started roasting and what seems to be the method you are using, works fine unless your total roast time changes. Example, if your roasts take 8 minutes and you always time the development for .... say One minute and thirty seconds or whatever time you have tuned your roast for that will work. But if your total roast times change that will affect your development outcome using the timing method. If this is working for you then keep doing it. I just wanted to explain why I promote this method of measuring development phase.

[@MrJeepStone]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab My point is that 20% DTR of a roast that is 8 min long is not the same as 20% DTR of a roast that is 10 min or 12 min long. Thats why i like to use 'time after crack' instead. But i disagree with a lot of things Scott Rao says about coffee anyways. But coffee is so subjective anyways

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Ok, thanks for sharing why. I could understand taking that approach.... and you are right, it all comes down to personal taste.

[@beerbbqman2644]

Very intelligent man, BUT way to much side talking. Shorten the video and get to the point. I bail because I cant find a logical answer to my query.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

What’s your query?