When YouTubers ask for money

[@TheEnabledSecondary]

You can't act like cable, hire all your friends, get a big studio in LA, lights, cameras, contracted work, etc. and not expect to fire people. Entertainment changes fast, and studios hire and fire fast, you can't expect to give people lifelong careers

[@nhtathinfbntb2746]

Their vids arnt even that appealing tho for the amount they spend and people they have. They average a million views. 25 employees is crazy.

[@Escall]

I’ve seen a lot of videos about Watcher and the KZbin landscape and people are overcomplicating what’s going on. The fact is, the Watcher gang is getting old and the majority of their audience is also getting old. As we get older we spend less time watching KZbin videos and focus on family, friends and work. I’m sure Watcher has a young audience but they’re mostly watching creators their own age just like we did. Advertiser’s are spending money on short form content bc that’s what younger people are watching and the majority of KZbin viewers are most likely under 30.

[@neociber24]

I agree with this, some creators want to act like a family and not like the business they are. A lot of factors can affect the revenue streams and when you have 30 people to pay that's a lot of pressure, a lot of creators are scare of firing people because they don't want to be like the corporations they complain about.

[@illumistration]

The problem I had with the recent situation is that there really wasn't any value proposition. It felt like they were asking you to support their fundraiser while giving you less than before, and not with an understanding tone.

[@LesterDiaz]

The mistake is people don’t come to KZbin to watch TV shows or Netflix style content, the audience wants to feel a connection with the creators, the more they move away chasing tv style content the more the audience feels disconnected to the creators.

[@omnimater]

There clearly are ways to make more TV style productions without sacrificing that. Take Donut for example. It's openly a media company and uses only a slightly more "KZbin creator" style than what similar shows on Speed Network showed in the late 00s and 10s

[@JDeeVis]

Yep. Can even look so for back as the YOMYOMF channel started by nigahiga

[@casey.taylor]

Hard disagree. I come to youtube because of the creators personality and their genre of content not the style. Mr Beast is straight up making tv show style content along with a number of other creators and they're doing just fine. Not only that but youtube is completely free. So of course people would come here to watch tv shows when they don't have to pay for a subscription service. That's why you see so many shows posting full episodes here like Kitchen Nightmares, Mythbusters to name a couple. There's an audience that wants connection for sure but that's just one type of viewer.

[@VMYeahVN]

I partly disagree. I think what you are saying makes sense if you are talking about the actual business model, and not the style of content. There's absolutely room and enjoyment for the style of the content to be TV/movie/Netflix style and the audience of the person making it still be able to connect to the creator. The issue is when the creator tries the Traditional Media created money hungry methods of profit extraction on the audience without providing enough in return to make the price worth it. That's where Watcher went wrong. It's the fact that the monetization strategy they tried to do was incredibly slimy, out of the blue, and not good value. I even saw lots of comments of people saying "if this what you're going to do you better be putting out Disney level shows with weekly episodes and not the 1 or 2 videos a month like they currently do".

[@Skapo]

Which is why many of the most successful KZbin channels in existence are similar to TV in production style right? Mr Beast, Mark Rober, Try Guys, Dude Perfect. I mean the list goes on.

[@ParisuSama]

When I run out of money I'm told I should have anticipated, budgeted, and saved for this. I think most people don't want to give companies any kind of exception. KZbin is still young and volatile, scaling up to 25 employees is just insane to me. This really sounds like a case of simply overhiring and being overly ambitious. At least they dialled it back, but the fact that they thought their first plan was a good one is incredibly tone deaf.

[@mr.person1219]

Just because the main guys have a following, starting a new channel with that many people, is insane. You can't provide a sufficient revenue generation from that.

[@FancyStorm018]

Yesssssssssssss

[@RebeccaBredin]

When people find out their budget is not enough to get by, people are told they have two choices: cut costs or earn more. Other channels have been able to scale to this size, so it’s not like Watcher is doing something new by having a large team. They just made a really big mistake on reading their audience. Scaling a business is not ridiculous, but it has risks.

[@moejoesayson1933]

THIS. Also seems like they are trying to cheat their way into TV. If you wanna be TV producers so bad then quit YT and go to the cuttthroat world of TV. I can't remember if it was a video or a comment but someone also said something really important: The moment you become a streamer people will now judge you against other streamers. You can't have it it both ways. You have to close down your Patreon. Netflix doesn't have a Patreon. And if you're gonna charge $6 people are gonna judge your catalog against other companies

[@ParisuSama]

@@RebeccaBredin That's definitely true, it's not impossible and others have done it too. For me though, when I see creators like this scale too big and become unsustainable, it just feels icky to see their solution become, "YOU need to get us out of this. We're taking away the thing we used to give you for free and now you need to pay." College Humour/Dropout, Rooster Teeth, and Corridor have done something similar but it was slow over the course of years and they still put out content on KZbin.To do this so cold turkey feels like simple mismanagement if they're this strapped for cash. I heard what Colin and Samir were saying like how they're trying to make the content *they* want to make and how they're all still learning this as they go, but I think they made a ridiculous misstep and I'm not surprised there's so much backlash because frankly, this was so stupid and the fact that they didn't see that ahead of time is kind of a head scratcher. But hey, like I said, at least they're backing up and re-evaluating, which is definitely the smart thing to do.

[@KaleidoAbridged]

Steve, Ryan and Shane want to make tv quality productions, but they can't afford it, and their fans don't want it.

[@TheVirtualObserver]

Harsh yet succinct. 🫡

[@--ashleyashleyashley--]

I think that when creators pull the curtain back and talk openly about the financial fragility of their business it can prompt the viewer to think about their own financial fragility. People typically don't enjoy being reminded of a poor financial reality and, when that self-acknowledgement is being mirrored back to the viewer by a creator who is ostensibly better off than them, it's easy for a bad taste to be left in the viewer's mouth.

[@veryclaro]

Such a great point. And when ‘institutions’ (meaning groups) do it, people become critical because they’re supposed to be consistently well-oiled machines with different parts, that need to clearly achieve an output (which is also what they claimed on the Goodbye YT video). Made people extra critical even about the founders’ financials (Steven’s Tesla, Shane’s wedding costs, etc) when prior to this, no one really cared. People will start speaking about cost efficiency on the institution’s side to make sure they’re being smart about their money even before they take someone else’s, especially not ours.

[@Koraeffect]

Hard to feel bad for content creators that play a violin about their hardship in this economy. Let’s see the financial docs or tax returns. 🫠

[@Duckduckobtusegoose]

This is amazing insight. It leaves a poor taste to hear well-off people ask people who are much less well-off for money with nothing of value in return.

[@mavicityrelayson2924]

Spot on. I live in a "developing" country. 6$ buys me 2-3 meals. Most creators that I follow are exponentially better off than I am. I pay for KZbin Premium only because they adjust for idk, GDP or some metric (3$ for me) and because I want to support my quasi-relationships with the creators I've followed for literally a decade now. It's annoying because I love Watcher, loved them since Buzzfeed. I've unsubbed for now because of how upset I am. Lol it sounds funny and irrelevant but I can't deny the feeling of being ditched.

[@BeanMacdui]

@@mavicityrelayson2924I am from the US and I read a comment section on another video about the watcher debacle. The comments were full of people like you who are from countries around the world and they were explaining the exchange rate and that six dollars is the cost of two weeks groceries and lots of stories along that line. I keep trying to bring it up in these threads because people aren’t even considering the large fan base that are foreigners! Makes me mad that no one is talking about this!

[@anniemae4182]

One thing that you didn’t touch on that was a huge source of anger for the audience, was the fact that shortly before Watcher put out their “goodbye KZbin” video was that they announced they were bringing on Andrew and Adam to bring Worth It to Watcher…. Which is a very expensive show. They then went and put out a video complaining about money and needing more of it. I really think they need someone with actual business experience making calls like this… and telling them when something is a bad idea

[@xuapril32]

Exactly! They were saying they couldn't afford to keep running on just KZbin and advertising so they need more money, and immediately turn around and eat $1000 steaks or whatever. You can't ask your viewers for money to make new content when the content is "hey guys watch us travel the world and do expensive things".

[@icambridge]

Asking people to pay for something that used to be free will result in 80-90% of them refusing and being mad. It makes sense when the 10-20% makes you more than what you had before.

[@BaldskiTheIII]

I do appreciate that Steven, Shane, and Ryan are making high quality videos just for the fans to watch it. But, the thing is... Nobody really asked for it. Making a video about Leaving KZbin was such a huge blunder, and the amount of impressions to it is insane. Imagine having thousands of Patreon users supporting you, just to slap them with a 6 dollar paywall sign is upsetting to anyone else.

[@pithygrapefruit]

And these guys downplayed how much of an ask that is. Sure it’s not 13k, but almost 6k paying is no slouch. If they already generate at least 350k, it is conscionable to then take another 350k out of your audience’s pockets? All while not offering anything for the original 350k and offering the same thing they had for free for another 350k. So they essentially pay 700k for a KZbin video that has always been free. Can’t believe they just tiptoed around it.

[@alijahan]

A couple of things weren't mentioned about charlie's video here, firstly he mentioned that he himself has employees and not just editors and production crews, he employes gamers for his esport team which demand a way higher salary than editors for example and he can pay them easily just with his twitch streams or adsense i believe. And he isn't just a dude sitting in front of a camera in his room like you mentioned. As previously mentioned he has esport teams which are very expensive, he has a warehouse which would also cost a lot of money and they do product tier lists which also cost money. He does music with the gentleman, he has a podcast and recently started a new channel too. And he does money donating streams pretty often now. So he does have a lot of cost and it isn't just a dude in his room like it may have been in the past. And he is like the least ad friendly creator and if he doesn't have a problem paying his employees, i'll take his word for watcher just being greedy for making this move, unless they suck at money management and just burn cash to warm up the studio.

[@brian_akhtar]

i think Bedros Keuilian is right. he said the problem is that you train your audience that you aren’t selling them anything. so when you do, they’ll be furious. so you have to train them from the beginning that you are/do intend on selling something, so when that day comes, they shouldn’t be surprised. i’ve been making sure we do that in the early stages of our business and i am very confident in this strategy

[@BeanMacdui]

Train your audience? No thanks….🙂‍↔️

[@brian_akhtar]

@@BeanMacdui ok bud that’s life but ok. hope you never condition anyone to treat you the way you want to be treated based on your mentality….

[@BeanMacdui]

@@brian_akhtar I set healthy boundaries for myself. Your use of the word train sounds more like manipulation. Honestly though, you’re right, for the business world that’s how it works. Like it or not, it is the reality.

[@kevinbparry]

Loved this conversation. Appreciate the transparency from your side!

[@diamondplayz2145]

I don’t get how they didn’t have the foresight to see that this was going to backfire big time.

[@evony5661]

They should have followed suit with what Dr. Richey did. "...we just need 1% of the viewers to join..."😅

[@RefeelYoga]

Perhaps I'm not part of the "normal audience", being a creator myself, however, regarding your guys' course, I think it's amazing. You two are certainly experts in your very specific field. You've both invested significant funds and years of your life to get to the point of understanding that you have, and to be able to share in/receive that knowledge SHOULD be an investment. It values you. It values the knowledge. And it gives value to the experience of being a student. I have seen first hand - especially when it comes to detailed courses - if someone doesn't pay enough, they wont feel like they've invested and they won't have the same value of and commitment to the course, as they receive when they actually need to consider the investment. Not charging, or setting too low of a price point on courses does a disservice to both you and your students.

[@chrismartin17]

I think there is this sort of "creator class" mentality. We all got this idea that content creators (KZbinrs, esp.) should make millions, or close to it. Maybe we need to adjust our understanding of how wealthy professional content creators can expect to become. Now that there are so many, and the dilution of ad $$$ is real, maybe creators aren't making the celebrity-money we've long associated with them. Such that KZbinrs maybe need to get their drinks from Starbucks and not Erewhon (no offense).

[@dude.dans_]

For nearly a year, I've been watching every video you guys post and somehow it wasn't until Colin brought it up at the end 32:17 that I realized I wasn't subbed 😅 Anyway, I'm a longtime Huge fan, but new sub! You guys are my go to account for any Creator Advice.

[@razzyp]

What got me was as a OG fan they started acting like other KZbinrs. Let’s be honest nobody asked for these high quality videos it’s about getting us to fund their lifestyles. They chose to move to Los Angeles for what I just don’t know. 90% of the videos I turn on YT now there is always someone asking for money in some fashion. Cash app, Go Fund Me, they only get on live for the super chats and then we don’t see them again for weeks it’s exhausting. On top of that we all have so many subscriptions as it is that just keeps rising and don’t get me started on that mess. If I feel a creator is working super hard I don’t mind shooting a tip their way now and then but lots like to guilt you into it. Many of us are struggling and haven’t even asked our family for a dollar. Then you have people like Watcher who got their start ON YT, was doing just fine, pretended they were for “the people” (eat the rich) and now want to hold us hostage with their paywalls. At this point I only watch videos that don’t need extra assistance and simple do it for the enjoyment.

[@samueladams9186]

I understand people shifting their business models, at the end of the day creators need the revenue to pay for their overheads as you say but also that revenue is essential to making innovative content as they always need to stay on top of competition. Also I would love to see Ryan Trahan back on the show as he is truly dominating with literally 2 employees, his take could be extremely valuable not only for up and coming creators but also the huge creators that really could reduce the size of their workforce. P.s. great video 😄

[@Vi3ES]

love this. Would def love to hear what trahan is up too and how he is managing with just two employees. Also he is such a talent he is a bit of an outlier but ya would love to hear how he is running the ship.

[@JairoSaysHi]

Such an important episode! Thank you so much for your take. Here's some money to prove we're okay with paying KZbinrs... as long as the value makes sense!!

[@bltotrs92]

i would rather give the amount i can freely without a paywall to get to the content

[@imanim8793]

I subscribed at the end when you asked because I realized I’ve watched tons of your videos all the way through, but always search your name to find the videos. I’m not sure why but I’m subscribed now.

[@makariespe]

How you _did_ you go about marketing your course to the specific audience? Great information! Thank you :)

[@0hubi]

I wouldnt be opposed if it werent for the fact that they took previously free content and locked it behind a paywall. They could've made "premium" content for a subscription, and still made the regular free content available on youtube.

[@themysticcuber992]

It was like MKBHD said once, you can make a paid service free, but it's VERY difficult to get the consumers to support a free service becoming paid (he said this for something about Twitter I think).

[@Smoked_Chief]

I think a KZbin group that has done a good model is the sidemen with having quality content on their main channel for free then having extended clips etc on their subscription based SidePlus content.

[@themysticcuber992]

Lmao I didn't actually watch the video when I made the comment, I didn't realise they actually talk abt this exact point in the video.

[@DeliaSlucutt]

I agree with the gripe - Insta stills with music is well weird! Thought it was just me thinking that. 😂

[@livingtheskylife]

This is such an important and relevant conversation! I am in the process of shifting my business model at the moment and I am thinking deeply about all of this. I am tired of the volatility of advertising and brand deals and am focusing far more on reaching the right audience and delivering deep value to them. Also, I could not agree more with that gripe 😂 I tried doing the music on photos when it first came out and it was a hard no for me. It's not the vibe.

[@rvt2239]

It just seems like not one of them has a lick of business sense. They want extremely high production value that some studio productions don't even have, they want to pay salaries for a massively bloated staff, they want to live above their means. Something has to give at some point. I'm sure they had a conversation that went something like, "If we can just get 20% of our subscribers to pay then we will increase revenue X amount!" But that's just not how it works when you are charging for something that used to be free without providing any additional value. People will just stop caring.

[@lamyyartifex]

Amazing deep dive. It is super fascinating how youtube and youtubers and youtube watchers have changed. Of course we are subscribed ❤

[@amartgod]

i fuckin love yall thank you for highlighting the larger issue

[@matthew.m.stevick]

Very great episode, this business of internet entertainment seems very interesting to me and very challenging to be a part of. I wish the best for everyone involved.

[@kerolokerokerolo]

Just a minor criticism: I was checking your website creator startup and was reading the reviews customers left, and you added their youtube channel tag, but you didn't directly link the tag to their yt channel. It'd be great if you added a hyperlink to directly check their channels. thanks for your time

[@tnessgirl08]

I wish yall would have mentioned Corridor Digital, they did this years ago and didn’t receive much attention. I think that’s so fascinating.

[@slauderek3195]

If they needed money, before turning to something this drastic, they should’ve explored other avenues first. Do a heavy patreon push, release or expand merch and accessories. Expand social media presence on the different platforms, etc. If all that wasn’t cutting it then they may try a paywall, doing it the right way

[@AuthenTech]

i run light and lean and i love it

[@Andre-Nader]

I think one distinction with something like Creator Startup is direct access and time with you both. There is some understanding that trading your direct time for money makes sense… but nailing the balance to scale is always tricky.

[@dawnmittelholtz]

Samir said “windowed content.” I Googled it and came up with nothing. What does that mean?

[@AllTerrainNation]

Has anyone noticed that KZbin is not offering a fair share with CPM v RPM

[@thecuttingroomfloor]

Fantastic & thorough episode. We've been a Patreon only podcast since 2021 and JUST started putting clips on KZbin in 2024. Which is backwards from most creators who started as KZbinrs and made podcasts & Patreons later.) We just didn't believe we could afford to start on YT with no revenue, so it was our only option. But looks like this could be more common...

[@JohnDoe-me3ew]

Most of these Tubers make enough from Google alone. If they can't manage their funds, the problem is theirs. NBC, ABC, etc. aren't asking for donations - neither are the very few good tubers, whom are hidden because of a shitty algorithm.

[@giovannigiorgio2262]

Samir....You're breaking the car!!!

[@coachcape]

Channels like Jet Lag and Wendover do this exact thing of release videos early on Nebula and then a week later on youtube

[@danle2884]

They ask for money because YT dont pay them enough. The population is not growing but the content creators are growing leap and bound. So how can YT keep paying them. Also, everybody wants to be a YT content creator nowaday, instead of going out there and get a job. They think that working on YT is easy money.

[@AreaCode000]

I thought I was the only person that hated the still photo + music thing on Instagram. This isn't MySpace folks!

[@JakeRomeroTattoo]

The sound on photos kills me too glad someone else agrees 😆😆

[@matt-lang]

I think they should have looked at Corridor Digital’s example of how to run a streaming site. Or Van Neistat’s Patreon setup. For corridor digital, they still upload the same content to KZbin, but have a little bit extra that they add to the videos when uploaded to their streaming platform. Then in addition, they make new specific content for the streaming platform. Van Neistat has a simpler setup where he alternates Patreon vs KZbin releases and then releases the Patreon videos later, which also works depending on the content being produced.

[@teocrawford]

Just a comment on your gripe: It's really surprising to me actually, but maybe you two just have a very different IG feeds to me. I love the music feature because I just post my photography and I love to accompany it with some calm music that enhances the atmosphere. But sure, it can be poorly used, which might cause your reaction haha :,D

[@danburycollins]

I only came to see the Man Carrying Thing video referenced...

[@WyattsVlog]

I don't watch these folks any longer. Nice work.

[@jaymogrified]

“They want to make high-quality content”-yeah, they’ve made that clear but there are a couple of things that they keep ignoring: 1) Fancier graphics and more elaborate sets do not equal high-quality content. Ghost Files and Mystery Files may look more impressive than their Buzzfeed predecessors, but for actual entertainment value, they’re lower quality. 2) It’s very disingenuous of them to frame it as “we’re doing this for you!” when they’re not. The fans have said that they preferred the older style of content. It’s Watcher’s prerogative to make whatever they want…and it’s the audience’s prerogative to decide whether they’ll consume it.

[@hello.hello.]

from someone agency/ client side, clients want to diversify ad spend where possible and non digital/static ads is still aggressively being pushed because they see a better and steadier ROI. Plus across the board ad spend has been on the decline for years, ad agencies have been feeling that pinch for years and it has changed the industry significantly. On Watcher, tone was a large issue in the delivery. The announcement came out of nowhere and starting the video talking to someone off camera instead of directly to the audience was a significant error. Combining an emotional message with a business/pay request, gave the ick and created what felt disingenuous. Should have been two separate videos, with the business decision first being speaking directly to the audience, they can take the operation talk but don’t like to feel that they are being emotionally manipulated for their cash. This combined with a request for payment for a content calendar that is inconsistent or not shared with the audience is what really made the subscription model along with another platform not appealing imo. If you are offering educational content I think it’s a better sell for the audience. you are making the time and money they invest in you as a creator benefit them.

[@DJRaphi]

I think I should only let you know when I'm NOT in the Deep End. Which is almost never.

[@unknown_legend]

The length of their videos and the number of mid-rolls puts into question their earning ability or earnings to date. Their long success on KZbin at Buzzfeed, added to the explosion of other creators, really limits their ability to find more haunted locations or ‘mysteries’ as they have stayed, quite rightly initially, within their niche. So now they have to think “what next?” “What haven’t we already done?” Half their latest mysteries were openly ripped from old TV shows. The high production value seems more of an attempt to be picked up by Amazon or Netflix and currently the gamble hasn’t paid off.

[@longboy5639]

2:47 right here Man

[@bchecketts]

Sounds like the maturing of an industry. Early successes are having to learn some business basics. Their visible success drives another wave, adding competition. Also lots more supporting software, services and education. Then will come mergers and acquisitions. I'm not sure how that will play out in this industry because so many of the brands are based on personalities.

[@karmaloe2688]

As to Creator Startup that targets a direct demographic... It would be nice to hear your review of the venture and if you will diversify your portfolio in that space. I think there is interest in a range of similar services with different pricing depending on the depth provided.

[@ormoffat]

You both were saying you need someone to manage that front office if creators are moving in that more media company direction and how hard it is to find people to trust and my first thought went to Maker Studios and how rapidly things collapsed after the Disney Buyout how many creators I loved jumped ship and went back to Indie because of the contracts there. I think about what happened to Smosh. I agree we need to stick to smaller teams and more indie function on this platform. This old TV model style should not be the standard. We keep applying old media ideas to new media styles and it isn't working for a lot of folks.

[@soloelisa]

I just love this channel. You guys are great!

[@nicolewise]

What is windowed content?

[@muneebelahi7580]

Content that is available or exclusive for a specific time frame

[@megg713]

I think an interesting counterpoint to this conversation is that creators here on KZbin use this style with Nebula (the top example for me is Jet Lag The Game) Jet Lag releases episodes a week early on Nebula and has exclusive content there and in turn Nebula sponsors their videos and helps fund their channel But for me the biggest differences are the price difference (Nebula is $15-25 a year for a subscription) and the way Watcher seemed from the video to turn their back on KZbin

[@originaozz]

I don't agree with them entirely on the pricing, but I understand the need to monetize. Feel bad for them since so many KZbinrs came out to bashed, most being Reactions type which mainly need 1 person to operate and a room. The production scale is so different from what they are doing (I'm not even a fan, but as someone who dealt with production it's very costly).

[@aprilgranzow8716]

21:18 I don’t really care that my favorite creators are running a business, I don’t want a wall “protecting” me from the idea that people need money to live. I like people like Dr. Kirk Honda of Psychology in Seattle who thanks people for becoming channel members because it enables him to spend more time making videos. The problem with Watcher was that they didn’t honor prepaid Patreon members until people complained about it.

[@TrevHughes]

All creators should learn about Kata and how to keep, like Colin said, “a lean company”. The moment you monetize you should grasp your current condition and set target goals.

[@PamelaRuddyUKart]

I think part of the problem is they were cutting off the relationship with the people who couldn't/wouldn't pay. (Subscriptions do add up these days - I watched a KZbin video I think from MrWhosetheboss, about how the more fractured what you want to watch is across more streaming services, the less value you get from any individual service and the more you are paying and it all becomes a bit sh*t.) It's one thing to have a bit of FOMO of not being part of something a creator you watch every video of is doing. (Like Id love to have the funds to see what you are teaching in your Creator course) It's quite another to feel like the Creator is dumping you if you won't pay - e.g. if the whole Colin & Samir show went behind a paywall. It also seems a short sighted move as you'd lose discoverability to new viewers. I wonder what percentage of folk they had thought would pay the subscription before they announced it? Wouldn't they have realised that even if it had a great launch that they would have ditched a significant percentage of their fans? I get trying to find your true/dedicated fans who are willing and able to pay and offering them something extra but no need to ghost everyone else.

[@pineapplefreddie]

I think what you guys said is right. Why should people pay for what was free before so that you can live out your dreams of having a big team/creating "better" content, if what they prefer is less produced content anyways? I'm not sure why creators are expanding their teams so quickly if they can't afford it when ad markets aren't at their peak. Then they expect their viewers to subsidize their channel and wonder why people get upset.

[@LazyThinkerClub]

You guys should interview Ethan Klein of H3. His path to eventually having one of the biggest live shows in the world is incredible. And their relationship with their audience is unmatched. Would be a great conversation

[@therealmorganofficial]

MCT sent us here

[@jakel.2150]

what is it meant by windowed content?

[@Xyronyte]

Each KZbinr I watch is one of hundreds I watch. Elasticity of demand says if one creator charges more, I watch someone else. I don't have $500 per month to give $5 to each of my hundred favorite creators. Even if it was a TV show, I'd pay the network access to dozens of shows, not pay a monthly subscription price for one show

[@naialeehendricks]

Idk I’m not mad they wanted to charge. I feel like people could’ve expressed that they wouldn’t support that without acting like they commit a war crime lol. There’s a balance where you can be upset or think it’s kind of BS for them to do that, but not act like it’s the end of the world.

[@BrandonLeBaron]

I made it to the deep end is there a lifeguard on duty?

[@lucialaluce2221]

Keep it running and grow are two different things.

[@skysky221b]

At the end of the day it’s their job. They need to make money somehow and need to be able to compensate for rising cost of living. They are running a business, it’s also just part of growth within a company. Whats also very intriguing is that when it’s a pay wall for content it’s greedy but when it’s merch it’s fun and celebrated.

[@ettrickable5988]

They should not have 25 employees, simple as that. Just like any other industry overhiring to keep up with market trends ends in mass firing, take the tech giants for example they hired like crazy in the pandemic and now they are laying everyone off because the hype has died down. If they were that desperate to keep their employees they would take salary cuts or something like that, it is a greed thing.

[@StorageYUPPP]

I would love to see you all talk to Linus tech tips about something like this.

[@RediscoverOwnSoulEssence]

When Collin calculated Watched’s patreon 5.99 to 25 he said a year….. but I think patreon works on monthly subscription base so it is 300k a month ?

[@bargainsstoragedeals3653]

Get rid of some employees and move out of la where the rents are stupid

[@thelivingmanpart2]

Suuuuure, Shane and Ryan #2 btw REDBARS WATCHING

[@Cannabis_Connoisseur]

Guys acting like this is what happens when you've lived wealthy and privileged your whole life and never went through financial hardships.

[@roziwrya9360]

Watcher literally originated from two guys bickering back and forth to one another and only having yellow and blue subtitles, yes their video quality is awesome but honestly no one cares about that, I don’t go and pinpoint where the editor missed something, I go and pinpoint that the people are acting weird. Even about steven Lin, I didn’t notice he was gone from buzzfeed until after a year into watcher where they had a video on the founders of watcher together, I literally just learned his last name from the debacle that he caused this month

[@Bingsu99]

They did not do enough research on Charlie lol this man is a co creator of a comic and he founded moist esports. He makes lower effort content outside looking in but he has a lot going on. They need to bring him on the podcast.

[@pixelflowx]

you definitely need to interview Dave Wiskus

[@AozoraUltra2006]

Watcher needs to let people go and be much leaner with their studio and equipment costs.

[@Itskevingraham]

They should have done the Vlog Creations model and have a paid platform for superfans and free content still on main channel

[@rehatbir.]

Honestly, I didn’t even know they made a new channel. And I loved Unsolved and Worth it. Honestly just thought unsolved was sold to netflix. I think their entire business platform has been a little lacking since their marketing didn’t get to legacy viewers

[@mr.person1219]

So Best Ever Food Review Show touched up on this topic, several years ago. Sunny, the channel's creator, explained about their revenue source in-face, that they will still be doing free content, but paid content on patreon through levels and tiers. Merch as well. Now, no one made a problem with them because they are transparrent and thought about multiple streams of income. Sunny also comes off as rudely genuine, which allows for viewers to be realistic with the channel. KZbin's ad revenue for creators are volitile, as we all know, so many times, that's where sponsorships and merch come into play. Now, going back to the Watchers example, they have no other revenue sources plus by putting all of videos under a paid wall, then that will only get the cleints that like them. No free advertising, means a doomed market to eventually go. Best ever Food income style: Sponsorships: 30% Patreon: 20% Ad rev youtube: 14% Merch: 30% Other: 6% Other channels like Kurzgesast also talks about their revwnue streams, Watcher just messed up.

[@english-tudor]

I think the biggest problem is when creators dont look at their audience like investors, which is exactly what watcher did. If the investors aren't interested, you dont get views (money)

[@english-tudor]

It was also just egregious to hear from a business perspective how quickly and how largely they scaled and increased their overhead...seemed like mismanagement rather than anything

[@RedRover22]

You guys are fine. You’re offering something that provides a return on investment. Of course you should charge for it. I think that’s easily understood amongst most people.

[@freddysagastizado9325]

I get where you’re coming from but they had multiple revenue streams. They had ad cents they had merch they had the Patreon. They also did live shows so saying that because brands are paying less they need to make a subscription service makes no sense to me.

[@lucifersstepkid1143]

Keep unsolved, get rid of everything else they’re spending money on that nobody cares about.

[@Sourcefedisnewsporn]

F*** this is one of the most interesting videos I've ever watched from you guys. The creator economy is so different than other parts of business. You could spin off another show on just creator finance, window it, and put so many business schools to shame.

[@RPGesus10]

if you want to learn about the perfect long running youtube media company you should talk to philip defranco

[@brynna8619]

Something I'm not hearing added to this conversation: Smosh has a lot of employees but they post 7 days a week and make some videos with a higher production value but also have videos where they are reading reddit stories and playing board games. I don't think watcher makes enough content let alone balances production value well to handle such a big staff.

[@brutibear1423]

do we know how many employees smosh has? because this is a great point

[@brutibear1423]

found it they have around 30! and so many channels, don't see why watcher can't branch out more

[@Duckduckobtusegoose]

Or even add dropout/college humour into the equation. They have their own app for their content that is behind a paywall. They have a decent amount of employees and a lot of variation in content. They asked for money and were offering nothing new in return. Is the issue sustainability or is the issue them having to take a pay cut and therefore accepting a lifestyle change. On patreon alone, at the low end with their 12,000 patrons they would make around $60,000/mo just on patreon and they ARE getting brand deal still, they do still make money from ad revenue even if it’s not a huge amount. They aren’t broke and if they are it’s due to poor money management.

[@heybuddy3616]

@@Duckduckobtusegoose collegehumor was an established brand identity, it had an enormous backlog, the emerging behemoth that is dimension 20, and its demographic was largely millennials with slightly more cash to spend. watcher is a new company with less content and less variety overall, a small core cast, and had cultivated an audience of dedicated but less financially secure zoomers. streaming services aren’t a bandaid to midsize businesses like this either, they’re a huge risk and even if watcher tv does turn a profit, it probably won’t be for several years. this was a PR fuckup first and foremost, but also it’s not a good solution for watcher specifically

[@blitzofchaosgaming6737]

Watcher makes an average of 2 hours and 12 minutes of content a month. 3 creators and 25 people hired means those 28 people average making less than 6 minutes of content each per month. That is stupid.

[@GrandLineReview]

The tragedy is that I genuinely believe they want to make "television" style content, but we don't live in that world anymore. They can make their stuff as high quality as they want but pursuing that path will always feel like taking a step backwards. They, and all of us here, built an audience of people who have by and large rejected "television" style content. It doesn't meet their needs anymore. Given how often they say it in that single video, I really feel like they would benefit from removing the word "television" from their lexicon and replace it with "Watcher". They need to figure out how to make the best Watcher content and that doesn't always necessarily mean investing more time and money.

[@adi-panda]

Do you think One Piece or other anime would work better on KZbin?

[@theprogressivemichigander6588]

The other part is that saying they want to exclusively make television style content that you have to pay for also said they don't value their KZbin audience at all. When they had a Patreon, no one complained because it's understood that the people paying into the Patreon are donating partially for any perks, but mainly to support the free content that regular KZbin viewers watch. When people donate to a creator, they aren't doing so just to help the creator. They are trying to help the whole rest of the audience get the content.

[@MapleDragonz]

Surprised to see one of my favourite OP content creators here! But I agree, making television style content on KZbin is not a sustainable model. The production of traditional film and TV content genuinely has very little place on KZbin, outside of maybe aggregator channels that purchase the rights of shorts or whatnot and post them on one channel. Watcher would have really benefitted from diversifying their content effort, and they could still produce the content that they would want to make, "higher quality" but at the end of the day it's still not the most sustainable model. KZbin as a platform, as an audience, prefers personable content.

[@emb5091]

I bet they were hoping that a network or streaming service would pay for there shows like how Amazon Video and Hulu picked up there old series "BuzzFeed Unsolved: Supernatural" and "BuzzFeed Unsolved: True Crime", but it never happened or they weren't offered enough. This would explain having such a large staff and focusing on television style content.

[@AubryRugBurn]

I wish people with businesses would understand the simple truth that: *Your business problems are not for your customers to solve* The lack of business planning in pretty much all companies today really shows. But no one does a better job at illustrating this than KZbinrs.

[@hberror404]

amen!!!

[@TheVirtualObserver]

Tell that to Humane (the AI Pin company) and Rabbit (the R1 company)!

[@PassiveAgressive319]

💯👏👏👏👏👏

[@bananamilk1974]

Oooooo shut down!👍👍

[@kazerzinorange]

THAT. SAY IT LOUDER.

[@FrontwaysLarry]

Watcher's huge mistake wasn't paywalling content, honestly. The issue just came from "no extra value, 100% extra cost". They aren't Netflix, they aren't Disney, and all they were doing was taking away what used to be free for their viewers. If they'd instead said, "Hey, we're making a new show exclusively over on our website, AND all our current stuff is over there ad free. If you support us over there for this exclusive series, it'll help us fund future series exclusive to the site as well." - It would have gone over so much better.

[@karmaloe2688]

valid point

[@cellophanefire22]

Spot on! If you want peoples money you have to give them something new for it and give good reasons/framing as to why they should pay

[@shivenverma]

this! exclusives are 100% ok and a ton of channels do it with patreon, but taking what was free and making it paid is just terrible

[@Vi3ES]

this is well said. very well said. Could have made additional offers to the community to become a part of the paywall. Additional value adds

[@Tax_Collector01]

That is EXACTLY what Corridor Digital did and they didn’t get any heat from their fans, this is a successful business model that has been proven to be effective.

[@daverules]

making it work is not having 25 employees for a youtube channel

[@samixamehta]

Yes! This... ☝️

[@nathanespinoza890]

idk why creators feel the need to expand so quickly. maybe they want to feel like a legit operation and overcome imposter syndrome. but it’s not always worth it

[@thatgirl9532]

Also a majority of those employees are people who worked at buzzfeed

[@thatgirl9532]

@@nathanespinoza890 Steven’s new food show just seems bland, the name is just not appealing. I don’t get why they won’t just run with worth it, if the try guys can get the rights from buzzfeed to make without a recipe every year.. then why not worth it with watcher… Also it doesn’t have to be crazy Michelin star meals in France lol

[@Muhluri]

Didn't they also hire family members?

[@luckysam78]

one thing i wish was mentioned is that watcher’s audience is mostly young adults who arent really in a financial position to pay for more ad services, and that’s also why a lot of fans felt betrayed. knowing the audience is so important, especially when it comes to presenting information

[@BeanMacdui]

Also, a lot of fans are international and six American dollars can be the cost of two weeks groceries… there was a thread I found on this with comments from people around the world explaining the impact on them.

[@CircusoftheMoon]

On top of that even for us older fans who are in established careers and can afford subscription services they had to justify why *their* streaming service would be worth it. Unfortunately for them they didn’t do that. (At least in my opinion.)

[@spectralnighttravel]

@CircusoftheMoon I'm in that boat. I thought to myself, I already pay 5.99 a month for Peacock, but there I get millions of times more content than Watcher posts. They're just batting out of their league asking the same price for a small fraction of the content you'd get elsewhere.

[@frimanolle]

The issue is that NO-ONE asked for tv-quality videos that requires a streaming service budget to produce. Most of Watcher fans are happy with low budget produced videos that feature the personalities that we love. If the choice is between keeping ur 25 employees or loose the brand that funds those 25 people, the choice from a business standpoint should be easier to make… If low product quality is the answer, then that’s what’s gonna deliver.

[@MonsterMina]

I think this conversation was missing the perspective of "of course you don't want to fire your friend-employees but if you want to be a business, you have to act like a business" I think a lot of the audience is upset at how it feels like their solution to a problem of their own making (over-hiring for their content/company ability) is asking the audience to bail them out. Of course the advertising landscape can be changing, of course there is instability in income with most online content. But you just hired on more friends right before you said you can't afford KZbin?

[@RandomPerson-cf3gt]

Or Ryan and shane can just take paycuts to avoid firing anyone. Their fellow buzz feed escapees Zach, Keith and Eugene took paycuts.

[@hattrickk15]

Ok but you can't in the same breath say you're doing this to keep the lights on AND say that you're doing this to expand and start highly expensive series.

[@Sanjna0720]

What do you think about the Mythical model then? They have content behind a paywall in their tiered subscription model. They make SO much content and varied in production quality. I used to be a 3rd degree member and then decided I couldn’t afford the monthly payment, but I never felt like I was missing out on content or merch opportunities because there is so much outside of the pay wall.

[@jbearclowater]

Generally speaking, when it comes to this sort of thing, I don't think many people on KZbin do it better than Mythical. Mythical has very smartly monetized their fanbase without abusing their fanbase or the good will of the fans. Their merch items don't always work (That cereal they released last year is an interesting error in judgement, in my opinion), but they've found great ways to incentivize fans to their paywalled platform without alienating fans who cannot. Watcher tried to follow the Dropout model, but they lacked the back catalogue that Dropout had to pull from, and Dropout only went all in on the paywall when they had to, because of bankruptcy, and otherwise built their platform up to what it currently is over time. Dropout is very successful now, but operated at a loss for a while. Watcher was trying to speedrun to that to keep the lights on, as they explain in their apology video, but took some serious missteps in setting that all up. I think they should have followed Mythical's model instead, where they continue 'business as usual' more or less on KZbin, but put their bigger swings that might not work as well on KZbin there, and also offer fans more value by joining the paywall site.

[@Judymontel]

Good question

[@dmuth4484]

I dont watch mythical but it sounds like they have reached such a massive level of scale where they are able to create a plethora of content outside of the paywall, a scale Watcher does not have yet. Note that this plethora of "free" content only exists because of the paywalled content that funds it. This model works provided you reach this scale. Getting to that scale is the hard part. I imagine a valley of death that you have to overcome, whether its with viewer dollars, investor dollars, advertiser dollars etc. But reaching scale costs money.

[@mr.person1219]

​@@dmuth4484Mythical comes from years and years of building their audience. Diversifying their revenue streams honestly just makes sense in the long run. From multiple channels, patreon, merch, etc. Good business model overall.

[@aprilgranzow8716]

Watcher wanted to be this without the organic growth first