Collectibles Chat Episode 7: How to Identify Autopens in Autograph Collection

[@powerfrenzy]

Always makes me nervous when buying some older signed books with the author being dead (like Jurassic Park). This is why I actually prefer inscriptions over straight autographs, even if they weren't inscribed to me personally. It adds little more history to an item.

[@chrisjones4717]

This is a Very important need to Learn in this Hobby.

[@MelanieGouldFanBrian]

Great helpful tips Steve, especially the part about how signatures from the same autopen can have differences. Thanks.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Thank you, Brian!

[@garrylaing8197]

Yes Steve, I enjoyed the video. Thank you for keeping us wary of autopens. I always like autographs that I've gotten in person (never ask for more than two), and autographs with an inscription or personalized. Garry

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Thanks, Garry!

[@notachance213]

Great video. I'm just starting to collect signatures for my own personal hobby and your KZbin videos are very informative First thing in the agenda, is it legitimate or produced in numbers. Unless that darn signature is expensive I'm sticking to authentic signed pen signatures

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Thanks for the comment.

[@samlyons3552]

SOLID VID !.........learned a Ton and Enjoyed the hell out of it

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Thanks!

[@russkcpa]

I never knew much about identifying auto pen signatures until watching this video. Thanks for producing it Steve.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Happy to help!

[@lennyaviation9653]

In the WW2 memorabilia collection world, there's an ongoing discussion about the signing of formal Knight's Cross award documents. Some of these very high quality parchment documents were signed personally by Adolf Hitler by an ever worsening trembling hand with a decreasing overall size of the signature towards the end in 1945. Now, some of these documents show a perfect 1930ies style Hitler signature until the end of the war and many collectors and dealers say it's an autopen! There are however 3 postwar reports by German officers who met a calligrapher of the Reichsdruckerei working at the Führerbunker signing these documents on behalf of Hitler. Nontheless, some collectors and authors continue to this very day to say that the documents with the perfect, seemingly always identical signature were signed by an autopen machine. Until now, at least in the field of German ww2 memorabilia, noone has been able to prove the existence of an autopen machine in use at the Reich Chancellery at the end of the 1930ies/beg. 1940. Btw, there's absolutely no "quivering" in the A.H. signatures (on the documents 1939-1945. Is the existence of an autopen machine from the late 1930ies/early 1940ies possibly proven?

[@jlandrl7848]

Can people use a celebrities signature from home and make forgeries with auto pen? This is why I’m unclear on. Thank you. Very helpful video.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

If an autopen machine gets in the wrong hands, yes... someone could make "unauthorized" autopen forgeries. It has happened. But, even though it may not be an official recognized pattern, it would still have the traits of an autopen signature.

[@quantitativeease]

I don't collect autographs (I watched this video to learn about the technology), but if I were an autopen designer today, I would use machine learning and multiple samples to create a randomized signature, sort of like the way industrial pizza factories simulate handmade crusts. I would not be surprised if it has not already been done. Also, a next-generation autopen should be pressure sensitive. Pen pressure has always been a key to identifying forgeries. It is as important as the form of the letters.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Andrew... when there is a crooked buck to be made, the criminals will always try to build a better mousetrap. As you suspected, there are already more sophisticated machine signed fakes on the market. They are more deceptive than Autopens, but detectable if you know what to look for. Not going to share more than that at this time. :-)

[@quantitativeease]

@@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication To me it's mainly an interesting math problem, but I was frankly taken aback that the original mechanical autopens did not include pen pressure. That is such a distinct part of any handwriting. What I really want to invent is a digital brush to use on tablets or other touch surfaces. My ideal version you could dip in water to simulate ink weight. I'm so sad I never got the opportunity of a decent education. p.s.: Did anyone in Asia ever invent an "auto brush" a la autopen? That would be an impressive piece of technology, even with those modern brush pens you don't have to dip.

[@longbow6416]

I saw one of these somewhere im not allowed to talk about. Now I know what theyre for

[@Geomon19]

Just discovered your channel, instantly subbed. Keep up the good work.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Thank you, sir! I appreciate the subscribe.

[@BuzzingBee123]

Thank you for this very informative video. I started collecting signed albums this year in the form of vinyl and CD's. I've been so careful to only buy from the artist's or label's website and have gotten lucky. Well, until this week when a signed art card showed up with the CLASSIC tell tale signs of being made by autopen. (Thank you for teaching me the term for it: quivering.) I'm actually really disappointed in the artist because I thought she had more integrity. I've been a fan for a long time and it has really changed my opinion of her in general especially because of the way they were advertised. She posted multiple videos and photos, on all social media platforms, of herself that made it appear SHE was the one signing everything. All of the online listings are marked with a "SIGNED BY..." label. It feels like I was lied to and I'm considering asking for a refund due to the false advertising and deceptive marketing. I'll always cherish the 2 dozen signed albums collected prior to this one... But the autopen print may end up in the trash bin for all I care.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

It never ends. In the last week it came to light Jelly Roll's new signed CD has autopen signatures.

[@BuzzingBee123]

​@@ZarelliSpaceAuthenticationughhh that's so frustrating! Don't these celebrities realize that using autopen just ONCE makes fans doubt your credibility FOREVER?!?!! I was able to get a refund for my fake Paris Hilton signature and they let me keep the vinyl... But I haven't even played it yet because I'm so disgusted with the idea of being scammed by her in the first place. Now, every time I see a listing/ad/video for one of her products, the comment section is full of people warning others that it's probably fraudulent and not worth the money. My level of respect for an artist takes a nosedive when I hear they are pulling this stuff. It reeks of dishonest inauthenticity.🤷‍♀️

[@0ptimal]

Yikes. Another aspect of the hobby that you have to navigate through. Didn't know much about this until now, good info to have thx

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Glad to help

[@bushtucker66]

Dylan just got found out using an autopen on a very expensive book.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

I've been following that situation closely and was going to do a video. However, so many other people jumped all over it... not sure I can add anything. I will say that I knew the sigs were autopens from seeing the first one. It had the textbook autopen look... very unnatural and mechanical look. I didn't need to see matches to know it.

[@Hof79905]

I have obtained every single autograph by the signer in person.

[@jamesw4895]

that's the way I do it? But there aren't many people left who's autograph I want.

[@kobyfullerton5350]

Bob Dylan sends his regards… I came here thanks to him, did not know such things existed…

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Yep. Not a shock that a guy who hates signing would use an autopen.

[@selbymichael]

Recently I have been seeing variable mechanical signatures for the same event. An example would be Ozzy Osbourne or David Copperfield's last release where they used between 3 and 6 different signatures with autopen. Looking at the Ghostwriter autopen machine it claims to have speed and pressure settings along with a ton of other features. Do you think the technology will eventually catch up to the process of easy detection?

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Technology will certainly make it harder over time.

[@henrys3629]

I bought a Sarah Palin "signed" book. Thank goodness it was at a library sale. Some people collect older autopens. I have 100's of NASA/space gotten in the last 10 years via mail mostly to retired people via homes or other businesses.

[@tommuck6226]

I sometimes look at items that have inscriptions, because it seems less likely to be an autopen or other forgery.

[@SteveZarelli]

The strategy reduces the risk but does not totally eliminate it. Many times I have seen autopen signatures with a forger adding a dedication to make it look authentic.

[@andreah6175]

I recently thrifted what appears to be a vintage 3 Amigo's autographed picture in a plastic sleeve (signed by all 3) I said to myself maybe its legit cause of the variations and different marker pen size and color. However, I zoomed in really close and see a "rapid seismograph" type look BUT I dont quite want to write it off as autopen because this is the most coarse HP photo paper I've felt (from the back side) so my intuition tells me "maybe" the signatures were effected by that in some way thus giving that impression..... its not "wavy shaky" like your vid demonstrates.... its much more tight and consistently pronounced in almost a microscopic way. Can you attest to what I am referencing? Thanks

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

The examples I used in my video were very pronounced for the purpose of demonstrating the concept of machine wobble/shake. It can be more subtle. I do not authenticate entertainment, so I recommend using the online opinion service of a company like ACOA, PSA, BAS, or SWAU to get a set of experienced eyes on it.

[@nuclearbox2]

Fascinating video and analysis

[@notaname8140]

Sorry for the off topic question, but what mic are you using?

[@notaname8140]

Also, great video, I'm not a collector but I'm interested in the technology of autopens so this was very interesting

[@6611haggis]

What’s your take on COAs ?

[@chriss4365]

I have a card I bought I think I'm sending it back because the note and signature ink color matches too closely with the paramount logo next to it. What would you charge to look at it before I send it back? It also has in interesting pause and a perfectly put pen dot in-between the lines.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

I only authenticate space and aviation autographs. If it is a known print, JSA, ACOA or BAS should be able to flag it.

[@allnovieveryday]

I wonder if all these big signers doing Barnes & Noble signed book copies are autopen, example Arnold Schwarzenegger, Robert Downey Jr, Natalie Portman.

[@matthewshaw1850]

Do all NASA astronauts use auto pens? I’ve sent letters to Johnson and received personalized autographs back. One even responded on the letter I sent to him

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

It is up to the preference of the astronaut. Some will personally respond to mail, some won't respond at all and some will ask NASA to Autopen their responses. It also depends on their workload at the time. During busy periods they may defer to the Autopen, while in less busy times they may personally answer.

[@57kellers]

Are there autopens of cosmonauts as well? In particular Yuri Gagarin?

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Star City did not have an Autopen machine. The only known autopens for cosmonauts are for cosmonauts who have been on NASA missions. For example, Leonov and Kubasov (ASTP)... Yury Usachov (shuttle), etc.

[@anthonycarpenter5032]

Are you the Mr. Zipper from the CGC boards?

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

I am. :-)

[@SilverDogAdventures]

Can I send you a picture or a story on our find at a thrift shop

[@Alfredo_47]

Thanks for the video, very informative! I have just become aware of auto signatures and became devastated at some signed soccer card purchases, thankfully most of them are hand written (apparently by the players hopefully haha) In your opinion would you say it is worth buying auto signatures or do they have no value? Thank you

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Vintage Autopen signatures may have some marginal value as a piece of "memorabilia." Like a baseball with facsimile signatures purchased at the ballpark gift shop. I would guess modern autopens have little to no value.

[@thakid691]

Thanks for this video , very helpful

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Glad it was helpful!

[@williamhicks9752]

So maybe a dumb question but autopens are worth less? Also if an autograph is personalized to an individual does it take away from value?

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Generally speaking, a big YES and yes.

[@DellaStreet123]

@@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication I wonder if, under certain circumstances, an autopen might no longer be worthless. Not each and every autopen, that's for sure. But forgeries, for example, can have collector's value, think of the infamous Hitler diaries, for example. They were declared worthless junk when Stern magazine bought the first volumes for 800,000 marks. In retrospect, a Kujau-forged diary might still have some value, as an example of an epic failure on part of a magazine. The diaries are embossed "F.H." instead of "A.H.", a fungus stain that was supposed to be a sign of aged paper was underneath the ink, and nobody had ever heard about Hitler ever keeping a diary in the first place, before someone offered those things to Stern magazine. A man who already had a reputation as a forger. Epic failure. I also think some checks supposedly signed by John F. Kennedy, but that had Evelyn Lincoln's secretarial signature on them might be of interest to collectors because her forgeries were near-perfect, she had real talent. According to Autograph magazine, PSA authenticated an auto-penned signature once, and that autopen with a PSA stamp of approval might have some value. At least to some people.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

@@DellaStreet123 Autopens have some value currently. Technically it is “vintage NASA memorabilia.” Like the team balls you can buy at a baseball stadium with replica signatures. The old ones have some collectors value because it’s a piece of memorabilia. Generally, autopen signed lithographs can go for 20 or $30 on average. I’ve seen Apollo 11 crew autopen lithographs go for as much as $100. That said, the value will never be nearly as much as authentic signatures.

[@cyberswiper6317]

I’m trying to tell if my Elizabeth Taylor photo has an authentic signature

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Sorry... I specialize in space related autographs. Elizabeth Taylor falls out of my area of specialty.

[@_NEW3RA_]

I have autographed cards that have been authenticated by AAA autograph authentication authority. They look legit but I hear a big fuss about the company being bad to authenticate fake signatures. They looked signed by pen and do not have any questionable issues imo. I’d hate to send them in to PSA and pay a lot for authentication and they come back not authentic. How is it possible to find out if the actual artist or athletes signed anything without literally being there with them?

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Why do you think that company "looks legit"? I recommend watching my latest video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnOWlphrjNONgK8 You can skip to 16:24 if you'd like.

[@_NEW3RA_]

@@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication nice. Is there anyway that I can send photo to you to tell if the auto is authentic or fake? Before I send item in?

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

@@_NEW3RA_ I only authenticate space-related autographs: astronauts, cosmonauts, NASA officials and aviation. If it is in that field, I offer an email opinion service: zarellispaceauthentication.com/services

[@_NEW3RA_]

@@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication oh naa. It’s sports autos.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

@@_NEW3RA_ Post them for opinions here: live.autographmagazine.com/

[@Earthman99999]

I was on the fence about getting the Michelle Obama book but after watching this video... I'll pass on it. People have claimed the signatures in the books have differences... but you explained how they could still be autopen. I'm also wondering now if these autopen machines may be programmed to sign with different variations. Probably so... I would think. Thanks for this informative video.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Absolutely. Some celebrities have multiple patterns. For his book of poems, Jimmy Stewart had five different patterns. Most NASA astronauts have multiple patterns. U.S. Presidents tend to have dozens of patterns. Back when the matrixes was some sort of physical template, when it wore out, they started with a new matrix that would be based on a different signature. Now, the matrixes are likely digitally programmed, so they do not wear out over time. I really could have done an hour video on Autopens, but wanted to keep it as brief as possible while still providing the basics. In keeping it brief, I had to skim over some detail such as this. Thanks for watching.

[@sabinoruiz2080]

Roy Campanella used a auto pen after his car accident in 1957

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

From what I understand he used some sort of brace to stabilize his arm and his wife would "guide" his hand as he signed. I've never heard of an actual autopen from Campanella.

[@ms9]

Good video. I didn't know about the variations on the same pattern before (although I did know about multiple patterns). Autopen machines should be banned!!

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@superspit]

Too scared to turn the volume up, just in case the intro starts again. lol.

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

LOL. Thanks for watching.

[@doctorgood2007]

Always reminds me of Ghost Busters (not sure if it's meant to be or not!)

[@johnmatzye6633]

Instead of sending fake autographs - why don't a letter that most celebrities don't have time to sign autographs?

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Some do that. I guess there are some fans who would rather get something (a secretary or preprint) than nothing.

[@stephendiamond9893]

I have a personalized young Donald Trump photo with name of who it’s being given to “best wishes in your new career” and I understand that a personalized message with a signature is more reliable

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

It gives you more to analyze, but Trump often used secretaries. You should get it checked out.

[@stephendiamond9893]

@@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication agreed however, I’m gonna leave it up to the potential buyer.

[@CybreSmee]

Shouldn't this be illegal?

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Anyone can opt to authorize a proxy signer whether it be a secretary or a machine. That said, it's unethical at best when the signature is being sold or a component of a product being sold, for example, a "signed book."

[@CybreSmee]

@@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication like Hillary Clinton books haha.

[@SO-ro5gr]

Now all computers know they can get away with autopenning. If they follow these directions and use ai the reverse engineer the signature. Just don't give it a real pen lmao.

[@knowldedge5012]

this is actually a fraud, people believe they have a signed book and they don't

[@ZarelliSpaceAuthentication]

Yep.

[@sdgb5363]

1.5x speed is perfect for listening.

[@Skouskou-n6g]

Can I send you a jersey and you tell me if it is legit

[@mickybrousseau]

the dak prescott autopen scandal