Combat Mission Basics: How Vehicles See

[@usuallyhapless9481]

Anybody recognise the interior from 4:12? :P

[@gsop2574]

CV-90

[@gsop2574]

CV-9030 (export version with a 30mm cannon)

[@tomssimshack398]

CV90. Is it the Finnish version?

[@sproge2142]

To guess something different... Scimitar or Warrior maybe?

[@Mechanized85]

@@sproge2142 scimitar and warrior are not even match on that interior.

[@TopHatHat]

Loved the examples, its no wonder training has to combat the desire of tankers to stick their heads out and get a better view, no matter how dangerous it is!

[@hamishneilson7140]

That's not the case though, we train to fight with our hatches open in the West/NATO at least. Russian doctrine is to fight with the hatches closed, but we keep ours open with our heads peaking out just enough to get proper situational awareness around the vehicle.

[@TopHatHat]

@@hamishneilson7140 Well I’m not an expert to I’ll give way to anybody with more experience, but I remember when there was preparation for Operation Granby they were very specific on keeping tanks closed up as much as possible. Could have been a fluke though, as I said I’m no expert.

[@actionidiot7546]

@@TopHatHat that might have been due to the threat of Sarin gas. I believe that was Iraq's big boogyman weapon in 91 before everyone thought they had nukes.

[@TopHatHat]

@@actionidiot7546 Good point, that would explain the insistence on staying closed up!

[@_Matsimus_]

this was an incredible video analysis! well done!!

[@killchicken123]

The detection mechanism is still very much a mystery to me. There's the blind as bat situation where a company of enemy vehicles rolling in wide open at full speed directly in front and your tank fail to see a single one of them from a few hundred meters away(granted it's dated T-64BV from CMBS). But I've also seen enemy tank(T-90 in this case) instantly targeting my BMP the moment it pop out from cover on it's flank, or even blowing the head of infantry off from 1km away when they're buried behind 2,300m of orchard with I assume no prior or 3rd party information. The opaque nature also make it hard to pinpoint why when something happen and whether it's actually due to some kind of misconfiguration. But generally I'd say I appreciate the probabilistic nature of the mechanics.

[@burningphoneix]

There's two reasons for this: One is that the game checks for vision only every 7 seconds or so, which really matters in MOUT situations and really needs an engine update. Second, you're really discounting the effects of Thermal imaging. The T-64BV has none of that while the T-90A has the ESSA viewer. Check out Hapless' "90 Seconds" video to see how huge an advantage this is.

[@vinnart]

Excellent idea to use SB for this illustration Hap. Next time yet another thread on the forum comes up complaining that vehicles are blind, or see too well this will be the video to direct them to to gain understanding on sighting mechanics.

[@mjt1229]

Absolutely! Also reminded me that I should play more SB, except that it would dilute the already minimal time I have for CM. And since I suck at both, I should probably play the game I suck at less more often (plus I enjoy WW II a bit more than modern). Another excellent vid, UH!

[@TotallyNotElPresidente]

Tell you what though, when my tank spots an enemy tank, then loses sight of him, then spots him, then loses sight him again, all the while neither me or the enemy has moved, I start questioning whether my crews are on drugs.

[@universal1014]

Most strategy games make a lot more sense if you just assume all involved parties are regularly shooting up on heroin

[@nbr1rckr]

Easy behaviour to port over to a future CM Vietnam game then

[@gsop2574]

Top work as ever! The way all weeks should end; with a cheeky Hapless video! #ukfightclub 👊🏻

[@hamishneilson7140]

Excellent demonstration of this. One thing I will say that Combat Mission doesn't quite get right as well with vehicle spotting is the different armored doctrines at play for commanders. For example, something NATO learned from WW2 Germany was that it's often very beneficial to keep the commander's hatch open in combat, and for the commander to peak out in what's sometimes referred to as "eyeball defilade." This allows the commander to have a much better level of situational awareness by using common senses like eyes and ears in addition to any other sensors they may have. On the other hand, it was Soviet, and I'm fairly certain still is Russian, doctrine for the commanders hatches to be completely buttoned up in battle. I don't know how the Americans currently do it on their most advanced Abrams and so on, since they now have so many systems dedicated specifically to spotting, but in places like here in Canada it is still very much doctrine to fight with the commander's head out the hatch, obviously ducking as needed and buttoning up under air attack.

[@actionidiot7546]

I believe The_chieftain (he's a tank youtuber if you've not come across him before) said that when he was in Iraq his Abram's commanders hatch could be semi opened like how the German ones on I believe the panther and tiger could be. So its up enough you can poke your eyes out, but still horizontal so it stops your melon being plinked by a sniper. I know he was in Iraq post 2003, though how much post 2003 is beyond me, and what model of Abrams he was poodling around in is also beyond me, so don't know if they still have that feature. It's the most modern first hand account from the yanks that I have heard, though obviously not ultra modern.

[@hamishneilson7140]

@@actionidiot7546 yeah I love Nicholas Moran, he's a great source of knowledge on these topics. I get most of my knowledge about it from training in the army though, I worked as an armored crewman in the Canadian Army for a while and we always trained to fight with the commanders hatch open for better situational awareness. Edit: I mean, obviously there are times when you button up, but if you watch videos of Leopard crews and stuff firing on KZbin they're usually opened up. I wasn't in tanks, but the doctrine is the same technically across most vehicles.

[@actionidiot7546]

@@hamishneilson7140 ah fair enough, My entire experience of armoured crews is watching them drive by on exercise doing that joke they love to do which is to stop next to a load of infantry in the cold rain and complain that the BV on the tank has made their tea too hot before chucking it out through the hatch. They would get bonus points if the tea managed to extinguish the Hexi cookers we were fart arsing about with to try and warm up at the time.

[@nbr1rckr]

Hot damn that BMP is a sardine can. Stress indeed.

[@tomssimshack398]

As usual, wonderful video Hapless. Great use of Steel Beasts!

[@PlayUPUA]

Good explanation, thank you.

[@normannobrot]

This was good vid. Seen many folks frustrated and shit canning combat mission cos it's un-fair and unrealistic, actually far the opposite once you appreciate what they are trying to see from. 👍...

[@charliedoom]

great vid!

[@whya2ndaccount]

Great video and excellent use of SB Pro PE. Whilst not wishing to dilute your channel's main effort, I'd be more than happy to work on / expand this SB Pro PE "branch". We use it extensively in the ADF and happy to provide some help / answer Q's on it with you. I can't really provide video content / commentary as what I'm allowed to say on social media as a serving Officer is very limited.

[@HolgerHendel]

Thank you!

[@jht5225]

You’re right, you should do the UK DLC for shock force 2 as a play through. All the dlc why not :D

[@Tomiko931]

I love your tutoriál videos! Teaches me a lot

[@MrDrunkblackstar]

Today we learned that vision in AFVs is limited. Wow, who could ever guess? This discovery needs to be awarded with Nobel prize.

[@CHPMP5]

I was playing the new Battlefield 2042 beta, and it struck me how effective simply ducking into bushes and going prone is when armor/tanks roll by. I think alot of people forget how easily it is to become tunnel visioned/overwhelmed in a combined arms battlefield when explosions and tracers come from the most unexpected of places. Do you prioritize against firing on infantry or that armored vehicle you saw heading the other... wait is that a tank? And shit was that a missile launch? Was it guided or unguided? Better get into defilade, but your squad is getting murdered and need to you to take the heat off of them! And oh god is it raining rockets from the sky? Your gunner asks what the fuck you're shooting at, but the truth is you have no idea, just that its better to die guns blazing and banking on suppressive fire. Of course Battlefield is more of an arcade, Michael Bay action game but it only makes me appreciate the whole "combined arms" concept of "rock, paper, scissors." Also love the juxtaposition of Steel Beasts with Combat Mission to better illustrate some of the nuances and mechanics of CM, not so easily understood or seen. Appreciate your efforts and editing as always!

[@burningphoneix]

I was playing the demo for GHPC and one mission you have in an M60 had a dude with an AT-4 in some bushes DIRECTLY in front of the vehicle and for the life of me I could never spot him despite knowing exactly where he is every time I play it.

[@mcsmash4905]

one of the better and cheaper games which illustrate just how difficult to see out of a tank is , is steel armor blaze of war from graviteam , and steel fury kharkov for that matter as well , you have other tank commanders yelling over the mic , you have your own tank moving around and firing , while at the same time you are trying to decide what to do

[@gareththompson2708]

A new Hapless video! edit: I should reinstall Steel Beasts one of these days. It is an excellent tank sim. And it does give a lot of context for why armored vehicles have such poor situational awareness compared to infantry. I wish more tank games could restrict the player to viewing the world through the internal optics of their vehicles (I'm hoping that GHPC will do this eventually).

[@aanders1990]

Excellent as always

[@SipDisco]

great

[@ReDoG129]

That's why tanks should always have infantry backing it up when in an urban environment.

[@brainfart22]

I was hoping for a more in depth look at how combat mission breaks down the differences in visibility between vehicles in combat mission. Is everybody equally blind, excluding thermal imaging systems?

[@usuallyhapless9481]

So, from Battlefront themselves: "Much of Combat Mission's realism comes from correctly simulating important low level details, such as crew responsibilities, vehicle vision blocks, high tech sensors, etc. A 3 man tank with a few cloudy vision blocks doesn't have to be artificially made inferior to a 5 man tank with a commander's cupola and separate vision blocks for the gunner and loader because in Combat Mission it happens naturally."

[@mcsmash4905]

had a fun time sitting in a bvp-m80 (basicaly yugoslavian bmp) the visibility was meh but it was even worse after my cousin dropped the gun barrel onto my head which just planted me back down into the driver seat

[@sproge2142]

While it is true that keeping situational awareness is difficult it should be noted that keeping situational awareness in a virtual simulator is much more difficult than in real life, especially vision blocks don't translate very well is my understanding. Head tracking hard- and software helps a bit but it's still not really comparable to being able to freely move your head around in a 3d space. Next to like submarine submarine combat it's just one the very few things that video games aren't able to capture very well in the battle space. Just my 2¢

[@fb2551]

Thank you for helping me understand and appreciate combat mission. I'll simmer down on the shouting at my blind af vehicles now!

[@jimmehjiimmeehh9748]

Given that the combat mission games are somewhat inpenetrable for people who don't already have a cursory understanding of most of the concepts involved, I would have expected most or all combat mission players to already understand this. It's odd to hear that apparently they don't.

[@tonyjoka2346]

Lol this reminds me of my comment in a previous vid

[@nemanjadragic392]

The thing that really annoys me in CM is when you park a vehicle right next to enemy infantry, like one meter away from them. You get an instant spot, even though that should be impossible. Yes, it happens very rarely, but I think it highlights some serious issues with the sporting mechanics.

[@sebastianpwns]

Could you please do a demonstration of "First Clash" on CMBS on US Side? Struggling to complete this scenario.

[@robertkalinic335]

I think sometimes those blind bmp moments are too ridiculous, i had one bmp 1 sitting with nothing else to do than just watch if somebody shows up in front, it didnt notice bradley coming into open field maybe 150 m away, stopping, massacring other bmps and then killing that bmp too. It was sitting there probably for minute or less.

[@Swede4Trump]

Great upload! I bought all the CM games and i have a question. My Cold War CM has serious low FPS, no mods, low settings - all the others run great. Anyone has a clue - support tips didn't help

[@AssassinAgent]

0:55 "Oh wait, those PCs look awfully familiar. Those arm patches... They are the arrows of Lagus. That's also m05 summer camo" So, how have you been able to get a picture of one of the Finnish defence forces "sim" rooms Hapless? :P But I must say, I was one of the first conscripts on our base and apparently in the entire FDF who used ARMA "2.5" as I liked to call it, for infantry ops simulaton. It literally was an ARMA game, not quite ARMA3 but still quite a bit of ARMA 2 in it as well. Hence ARMA 2.5. The whole sim experience wouldn't have been too bad if only my squad mates would've been willing to communicate while playing the sim. We had no problems with communication on the field before (or after) the sim. Also that reminds me, I hated my sergeant for bitching about me not using the rifle sights in the sim while engaging a fast moving Hind. How the fuck am I supposed to know where the enemy helo is, where it is moving to and how fast it is moving to approximate what lead I need to give? Looking through the iron sight that gives about 2 degree wide view area and maybe 1 second reaction time at that range and target movement speed? Yeah nah, I'm lowering my weapon for a brief moment so I can actually know what is happening around me. Once I've acquired the target of course I'm using the sights so I can hit stuff... But before that, just leave me alone, I know what I'm doing. This is not the first time I'm playing ARMA or simulating military tactics. Damn, I'm still rather salty about that sarge even, pretty much day accurate, 7 years later. But the be honest, otherwise he was just an OK sergeant.

[@TheFanoren]

Any chance you could do a video on the scenario editor?

[@SAarumDoK]

Does the ;modernized BMP's have external cameras and better situational awareness on par with Western designs ?

[@oleksandradamenko586]

There is also its name BMP-2M Berezhok, it has both a thermal imager and a panoramic sight, but equally she has vision problems, probably because the developers are a little inadequate for drug addicts when the same t 55 or t 62 in shock force 2 does not see anything in a hundred meters in front of this is not realism, this is a lie, an impudent lie

[@bah8925]

I though my tank crews were miopic.

[@doctorfresh3856]

Whats, "Steel Beasts" and how do I get the game?

[@usuallyhapless9481]

Steel Beasts is a tank sim. Bit complex to get hold of and requires a subscription instead of buying outright, but it's literally a tnak simulator designed to train tankers www.esimgames.com/

[@oleksandradamenko586]

Absolutely nonsense, well, BMP1 should see the enemy's tank or BMP 200 meters in front, and it’s very difficult not to notice such a shed like Bradley.

[@briansmithwins]

Last time I was this early the Germans were still winning the war.