Commander ban list still confuses Yu-Gi-Oh player

[@GentleIceZ]

Fun fact! Cimo did see The Promised End before, but it was in one of his own videos years and years ago called "What If Yu-Gi-Oh! Had Magic: The Gathering Cards?" It was a solo video where he just had people he knew give him a list of cards to look up and evaluate. He had a similar reaction then, too

[@Z-one1000]

I remember that video too. He also did one with pokemon cards as well.

[@GodzillaFreak]

ancient history at this point

[@kobisjeruk]

I tried browsing through his content to see the vid. Good thing I came to my senses and just do a search (after some scrolldown action). It was 6 years ago.

[@GentleIceZ]

@@kobisjeruk Yup. Just a heads up for anyone else who tries to scroll through Cimo's videos: he does a weekly show and has done weekly shows for a few years now. So do not scroll; just search

[@brothertobias]

The Yugioh version should be mandatory to tribute summon, but reduce the tribute cost by 1 for each type of card (monster, spell, trap) in your graveyard. It would be like a 4000/4000 with piercing, can't be targetted by quickplay and trap cards and it's effect triggers when it is summoned *or* it's summon is negated.

[@Athrex84]

I 100% agree with the ban list on limited resources. The everyone sacs to 5 part is totally fine and probably a card that should exist. The land cap at 10 is a huge problem. You could easily build around it with land destruction and low mana curve where you can get a massive land advantage and your opponents can’t even play their deck. Without synergy plays, you can easily lock someone at 2 lands for the entire game and there are not many outs in a singleton 100 card format to get your removal that only costs 2 mana. The card provides no benefit to the format and only creates non-games. At the time it was banned it was ,and still is, an incredibly obvious card to ban.

[@facemite]

It's also based on ten lands total so if a player ramps early they can have the majority of those 10 lands

[@midbyte3358]

Also, back in 2008 enchantment removal wasn't as plentiful as it is nowadays. Chaos warp didn't exist yet, and as far as I can tell there wasn't a single piece of enchantment removal in black either. If it got onto the field on turn 1, people wouldn't have had the time to even have the mana for a counterspell for it. The only hope for actual removal were in green or white or through free counterspells, and you can't expect everyone to have nature's claim in their deck just to get rid of a 1 mana enchantment that stops everyone from playing the game.

[@WhammeWhamme]

@@midbyte3358 - 2008 was two years before Nature's Claim was printed. If you wanted a 1 mana answer, you were down to cards like Demystify - specifically destroy target enchantment. And don't forget - the Limited Resources player can focus their spot land kill on the green and white players, and also could drop like a Sphere of Resistance on turn 2...

[@MonkWren]

​@@facemite I've seen it dropped on turn 3 after someone had ramped to 5 lands, so they had 5 and everyone else had 2 lands. Game did not last long.

[@marknicklason]

I used to play Limited resources at kitchen table games many many years ago. I am sorry. That card is not ok, especially in multiplayer formats. Sure it can be removed...welcome to magic, however most cards you play on turn 1-2 dont completely lock the game and self-protect themselves implicitly. Anyone who wants limited resources unbanned has not played against/with limited resources.

[@lanibentz9976]

“This is the craziest trading card I’ve ever seen” Dan you now have an obligation to show him shaharazad Edit: Also pretty sure you can’t pay life that would kill you, but might be wrong Extra edit: was wrong

[@Patogeno1000]

Don’t you mean “Mesa Falcon”?

[@ThMdyCh]

I'm 100% with this. It's so very obviously banned, but who cares, it'll be so so funny. His reaction will for sure be better than Raran's.

[@AzyxA]

This

[@matthugenberg8869]

So you CAN pay life to kill yourself, but only if it's ends you at exactly 0 life. So like, you cant pay 3 life for a flip land to enter untapped if you are at 2 or 1.

[@Slamstarproductions]

You can pay as much life as you have, down to zero, but you can't pay life that you don't have

[@fatch3353]

just to comment on CGB's talk of trade secrets- it was most definitely NOT an imagined scenario that rarely came up, since it was reprinted in the FIRST EVER commander precons, which was many peoples introduction to the format at the time, so it was getting cast A LOT, and believe me it was truly miserable every single time

[@AgonalRhythm]

Came here to say this. CGB's blue bias is showing for that card

[@kobisjeruk]

Truly deserved ban. When you think about cards that arent created with multiplayer in mind, this is #1.

[@Spaced92]

It's one of the most obvious bans in MtG history lol, maybe don't let a situation happen where two players draw dozens of cards.

[@notimportant768]

CGB has not played nearly enough commander during the times things were allowed.

[@guardforever9661]

Having played against this from 2011 until the banning in a proto CEDH meta, yeah. Miserable.

[@bomono3973]

Yall insane, Trade secrets literally reads: "Remove 2 players from the game". That ain't no conspiracy, anyone with half a brain gonna do that shit.

[@kylewarne1265]

Yeah that's the craziest thing CGB has ever said. Tournament collusion would be out of control if all you had to do was have your partner in the scam play Trade Secrets and handshake to always kill the other two.

[@Nr4747]

Library of Alexandria is actually incredibly powerful - so powerful that it is often a first pick in vintage cubes on MTGO. If it was legal in Commander (and somewhat affordable), it should theoretically go into almost every deck, even if just for the off-chance to have it on turn 1 and draw a couple of extra cards for almost no cost over the course of the game. And that's the kicker: The super low cost from drawing those extra cards, both in deck-building aswell as in actual mana !

[@timbombadil4046]

Think what Cimo doesn't understand is in magic hands tend to get smaller because ideally you're playing a land and casting a spell. So each turn your hand shrinks by 1. LoA allows you to remain at 7 since it puts that extra card back each turn. Meaning for 1 mana a turn you are drawing a card as long as you keep your hand full.

[@dark_rit]

It's an auto include in all decks just like sol ring I do agree. Sol ring is only legal because of it's notoriety and being in every commander precon ever so it's also a $1 or less card. If it costed a lot when they made the format it would be banned too and no one would bat an eye. Library at the inception of EDH was around $100 or $150 IIRC, which doesn't even sound expensive now in 2025.

[@Shad932]

Also in a format that goes long, drawing a single extra ramp card or hitting a land drop that you would have missed without the extra cards completely reverses any of the penalty of essentially having 1 less mana each turn. Not even counting how strong drawing an extra card otherwise is

[@Shimatzu95]

I say the same as i do to the hypocrats claiming sol ring is fine. Price is NOT a factor to powerlevel, yes they often overlap (mostly due to artificial scarcity aka rares/mythics) but raging river is extremely expensive and bad while sol ring is busted and cheap. Also, if you know raging river, i applaud you.

[@BusinessSkrub]

Meanwhile artifacts, colorless cards that can go in every deck and generally have easy mode, busted effects: *this is fine*

[@drren1229]

Library isn't an extra card or two. If you have it on turn 1 you can play a land and another spell on curve while keeping 7 in hand. In multi-player games the person with library's boardstate would look only slightly worse in the first turn or two but draws an extra card each turn.

[@ankhi3585]

The whole part about policing the self-policing format is kind of missing the point of the banned list. It's not meant for your regular play group. It's meant to give some guidelines for when you play against randos at an event or a con .

[@makhina8839]

CGB is smoking that low level rat poison crack if he thinks Limited Resources is just ok. That card is ultra busted especially in combination with any defense or counter magic

[@williamholtzclaw3029]

Yeah it's annoying seeing a card that should OBVIOUSLY be banned and then seeing him pretend to not know why its banned, i KNOW that he isnt that stupid

[@CatManThree]

The card seems fine at face value if you dont consider the existence of ramp or the fact it only costs one mana. If the card just locked people to only controlling 5 land each it wouldnt be a problem, but it doesnt do that.

[@nicolivoldkif9096]

@@williamholtzclaw3029 Honestly, I think CGB is really stuck in the 1v1 mindset for what is okay. Comments like "you should always have enchantment removal" Shows a thought process that excludes the idea that you may have needed to remove some OTHER players enchantment right before they played limited resources.

[@einmensch6694]

Nope. He is on point there. This card is miserable in low-power and mid-power tables and is a mild annoyance in high-power tables, unless you are playing a dedicated lands strategy. That being said, I agree that it should be banned, because it does make games that are not fast paced incredibly miserable.

[@nicolivoldkif9096]

@einmensch6694 that is a perfect reason it should be banned. Not every card is going to be banned for pure power sake. Some mechanics just don't fit in a multi-player game.

[@su0tin731]

Limited Resources is the easiest card to figure out why it's banned, I agree with them. I also agree that cEDH wouldn't have a problem with this card, but I would be mad if this card was played in any regular EDH game.

[@RWxAshley]

It can easily spiral out of control if two out of four players agree to slam their lands out ASAP, and knock the other two players out of the game w/ a single 1 mana card. I can easily see some toxic set ups and wild politics happening at tables for why this card is banned. It wasn't made w/ commander in mind at all.

[@irou95]

Turn1 burgeoning, lotus petal, limited resources and hold up 4 lands.

[@klutzmtg2310]

There is almost no easier card in mtg's existence to be banned than Limited Resources. CGB you are smoking some fucking crazy dust if you think otherwise.

[@cerebralisk]

Limited Resources is extremely one of those 'this leads to non-games' cards given how easy it is for at least two people to be stuck on two lands because of it, especially since it doesn't actually stop ramp spells from working. Like 'self-policing' or whatever magic players are hogs and we will soil our own homes if not prevented from doing so. EDIT: I will note that a couple of cards can give you an extra upkeep after your second main to let you get a panoptic mirror trigger the turn you play it. You could also have Vedalkan Orrey or something and flash it in on the end step before your turn, there's definitely ways to deny people the full turn cycle.

[@lequinow]

Cimo talks about consistency, but there’s actually a big difference between Limited Ressources and Jokulhaups or Armageddon even. That’s like saying they’re inconsistent because they banned Time Walk but allow Time Warp.

[@TheNotshauna]

@@lequinow Exactly, there is a big difference between a card costing 1 and having such a brutal static effect and costing 4 or 6 and being a sorcery. Limited Resources is so not fine it's insane, especially in a format where the most common enchantment removal is three mana.

[@OlgaZuccati]

@@lequinow armageddon also at least lets you play the lands in your hand, Limited Resource is just "if you don't draw your mana rocks or a ramp spell you're fucked", i can see a game where you go limited resources into a ramp spell into another ramp spell and at least two players at the table being completely locked out of playing for the rest of the game until the only opponent who can do anything can turn it off, it is such an annoying card

[@RodrigoCML7]

My doctor says this is just what I needed after losing so many brain cells to the last Rarran colab

[@PraisetheSun150]

Oh? You didn’t want to hear about how everything compares to minions in Hearthstone?

[@YusukeLover6969]

it is impressive how clueless rarran can be at analysing cards from games he has spent a significant amount of time with on the online ladder. the polar oposite of the Cimo and LSV videos

[@VCV95]

​@@YusukeLover6969Rarran is the type of person with fast brain: it's shallow and forgetful, but can forward think very quickly and can reach unusual conclusions. He is great at playing card games, terrible at remembering the cards lmao

[@Corrupted]

​@@VCV95There were probably 10+ times when his collab would show him a card he discussed before and I'm never sure if he's ignoring it for content's sake or if he just forgot. I absolutely get it though, doing the content is very much different from watching it

[@MrWingedSpirit]

I generally find the Rarran collabs more entertaining, but CGB and Cimo are definitely better at analysing the cards. That’s fine though. I like a bit of variety with these card game content creators.

[@shaneminer15]

for library, it's not pay 2k, start the game with an extra card. it reads, pay 2k, draw 2 cards per turn. i don't even want to know what the price would go to if they made it commander legal. library is absolutely better than sol ring and I'll die on that hill.

[@seandun7083]

Not to mention what happens if you start with both

[@einmensch6694]

The hit to tempo you take by taking your first turn off is massive though. There is a reason why Library is not played at all in vintage nowadays. I'd say for high-power or cEDH, Sol Ring is absolutely the better card, and Library otherwise.

[@seandun7083]

@@einmensch6694 the ban list isn't designed for CEDH, but even in high power formats you can cast a 1 drop turn 1, then start dragging cards with it on turn 2 before you play your land drop. You can also draw a card and play two free spells like Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal on turn 1 if you want. Despite those two costing 3 cards, that still won't take you off of using library on turn 2. Free spells like Force of Will can be used regardless of how your mana is spent at the cost of cards, which the library provides many of. If you play Library on turn 1, needing to Force of Will won't stop you from being able to draw cards turn 2. Vintage seems a weird place to draw the line since despite it not seeing much play there anymore, is still rightfully banned in Legacy. Comparing it to Sol Ring is also a weird choice since that card is *absolutely* of a bannable power level but was just grandfathered into being legal. It's probably stronger than the moxen in most decks but no one is saying "it's weaker than the power level of a mox so it should be fine". Not to mention what happens when you have both and can take the first turn to draw a card while immediately replacement any tempo loss during the second.

[@jackcarlson5227]

Wild opinions on Library. Another auto-include in EVERY deck with the highest floor imaginable, will sometimes single-handedly win games. If you think the 3v1 nature of strong starts is a good counterbalance, then go ahead and unban it, but no other cards on the list deserve banning either.

[@LennonMarx420]

If it cost

[@LouisKing995]

If you spend your whole turn one just to draw a card (by playing a non-fixing land) then you do you dude. You gotta be playing some real slow decks for that to win you the game.

[@shaneminer15]

​@LennonMarx420 have you actually walked through the math on that? you can, in fact, develop your board and keep drawing with library. library puts you to 8, you draw for turn up to 9, play land and another card, then activate again. 2 cards per turn keeps library alive... oh and not only are you playing 2 cards per turn like everyone else at the table, your hand stays full of cards while theirs are slowly draining.

[@LouisKing995]

@@shaneminer15 There so many things I would rather do on turn one than play a colourless land to simply draw a card. You are really doing that in a 3,4 or 5 colour deck ? It’s even questionable in 2 colour.

[@tuubi2783]

@@LouisKing995 theres basically zero opportunity cost in a high power deck with a good manabase, even if it has two or three colours

[@crss29]

I side with the RC in most cases. Watching CGB molding Cimo to his own view on the ban list is both painful intellectually and emotionally satisfying for me.

[@FalseHerald]

Right? It's like CGB is sitting there going "Wizards constantly printing joyless bullshit into the format isn't doing enough to kill it, we should help it along."

[@morten123456789]

One thing that Cimo dosnt seem to understand, and even cgb dosnt seem to get, is that you dont always have the answer to a problem. Yes any good deck has answers to artifacts, or enchantments or so and and so on. But you have 3 players, all playing stuff and what usually happens is someone runs out of removal. When Cimo says ''get good'' I feel a piece of my die inside.

[@geoffreymullen3527]

The variance inherent in a 100 card singleton deck also means that there's more often than not a situation where everyone is running the removal, but they haven't drawn it.

[@georgecavert6778]

No, I think they understand that plenty and the reason you assume they don't is your bias against these cards. First, the controversial card has to be drawn before the player is out of the game, then it has to be played, then it has to not be countered or removed and its player has to be ahead for it to really be efficient. How rare is that? Rare enough to not ban most cards.

[@andrewjennings236]

I think a big part of the problem with trade secrets is “3 mana, draw 4 cards, target opponent draws 2 cards” would already be very powerful in commander. Maybe not broken, but strong enough that it would see play in a lot decks. So if you throw on the “we can also collude” cherry on top aspect of the card, means it probably should be band.

[@51gunner]

Cut A Deal is similar; 2W Sorcery, each opponent draws 1 and then you draw for each opponent who drew. There's also Secret Rendezvous; 1WW, you and target opponent each draw 3 cards. I don't think they're used super often outside of group hug decks. To be fair, neither is quite as good as drawing 4 and giving 2 away, but they're still close.

[@adamprueitt8880]

Has it been explained to him that MTG has "fail to find?" Because in YGO that state is considered an illegal action, it might explain some differences of thought.

[@KhanShotFirst]

fail-to-find is only available if you're looking for a card with a quality. If you're just looking for any card... it's public information that your library has cards in it.

[@firstnext5482]

@@KhanShotFirst You're wrong but in a stupid technical way: 'Fail to find' is available on all cards looking for 'any card'. You can fail to find 'any card' if your deck has no cards though. It's dumb, but if we're being technical here... Either way, I think the original comment was saying that YGO doesn't have 'fail to find' at all. If you don't find the card you're searching for (whether it specifies a quality or not) then that's an illegal game action as far as YGO is concerned. It's more of explaining 'fail to find' because it's a literal foreign concept to people who play YGO solely.

[@mapeus]

In yugioh you have to have all your search targets in your deck when you activate the card, but that may not be the case on resolution, so if your opponent mills your only remaining search targets, you can "fail to find" in that instance (although that is exceedingly rare)

[@catfan913]

@@firstnext5482 fail to find is an old ruling in yugioh. it was changed around 2008, google says

[@alchemicpink2392]

I mean in that case the card just fizzles on resolution in YGO, it's not "illegal". Now if it turns out a legal target was in your deck but you concealed that fact it becomes illegal, the difference is in Magic you can almost always go Fail-to-Find even if a legal target is present in your deck(which is why Gifts became so brutal when that ruling was (ab?)used)

[@cameton_youtube]

A lot of common enchantment removal is priced at 3+ mana, it's entirely possible that you won't even be able to cast it if you're locked at 2 with limited resources. There's no world where that's fine in low-mid power

[@eroaris-theoneandonly3352]

its fine in low power bc the person casting it gets beat up on their way home

[@DoctorFalchion]

This is definitely what CGB failed to explain. He mentioned that Red has trouble outing them, but it's even worse when you realize that Chaos Warp, their catch-all for sticky situations like this, is 3 Mana (I would argue Black is pretty bad at it too, you can only play one Feed the Swarm after all).

[@matd2892]

@@DoctorFalchion black got a second enchantment removal in duskmourne. 3 mana instant speed.

[@BusinessSkrub]

I just love their constant assumption that you just "have" your removal in your hand at all times lmfao. "If you lose to panoptic mirror you're just bad" okay, until you don't draw your artifact removal one game and you lose to it. Guess you're "bad" then suddenly lmfaooooo

[@matd2892]

@BusinessSkrub when I played commander, I had 18-22 interaction per deck. Either spot removal, spot protection, counter spells or board wipes. A third of my spells were to interfere with my opponents strategies or at least keep the rystic studies and seedborne muses off the table.

[@L1v3W1r3d]

Emrakul, the Promised End is living rent free in Cimo's head

[@Red-Tower]

As she should ;)

[@Heldenfussel]

Library of Alexendria is just insane on turn 1. If played right or with the right hand, you can draw 2 cards every turn and play a land and a spell every turn without running out of gas. No way they will ever unban it and it being on the reserved list is just the cherry on top.

[@ZackSparks]

"at low power/casual its powerful" i mean yeah that's the primary point

[@Rabidconscience]

1:00:00 it’s a 4 mana card that says “two players of your choice lose the game”

[@Illianor123]

Better, “all but two player lose the game” 4 player is the most common, but 5 and 6 aren’t unheard of. Also better wording when down to 3.

[@Illianor123]

Only 3 cost

[@brunomarques7713]

Limited resources is way to meta warping. Rustic doesn't need to be dealt with in low power games a lot of the times. You can still play the game and do your own thing. You might lose but that's a choice you can make, similar to Max C in yugioh (the reason it isn't banned in the OCG). The ban makes even more sense when it's not even "good" in high power, while still pushing out good high power decks that rely on lands. It's also the reason smothering isn't banned, not sure how they think it isn't consistent. Way too much bias. Trade secrets causing grief is not an uncommon scenario at all. It would again be meta warping. You can play it legally if you use precons, and it is not ok even there. Panoptic mirror more often than not causes non games to occur by accident almost. You never plan to do it, but every1 can run it and while artifact removal is relatively common, it's not going to be removing all the mana rocks/win cons/ and random mirrors the turn they are played. It's often just not fun to play and doesn't necessarily win you the game just slow it down.

[@tahlialysse]

The thing about library is that it is probably *more* busted than sol ring when you consider the level of discouragement given to land destruction in commander (compared to artifact destruction). I do think there's certainly a world where it's *fine* as a $5 card in the same way Sol ring is *fine* in every deck. As in, it's really not fine, but sometimes having some high power variance is fun. If every deck at the table has a library in it, then I think it's probably doable as an unbanned card, but also probably not something that would be good or healthy for anyone. Actually what might be neat to get some of the effect without being totally warping would be to print a "commanderfied" version. T: add any color in commander's identity. T: draw a card. Activate only if you have 7 cards in hand and if you control a commander. Nowhere near as busted ofc, but does mean you actually have to work a bit.

[@therealax6]

I'd argue that cards that would see zero competitive play, but would completely ruin casual games, are _exactly_ the cards that you want banned. Limited Resources is a great example of this. Most CEDH games don't get past ten lands anyway, so the card would be dead there - nobody would play it. So who would put the card in their deck? Lower-power casual players, that's who. And _that_ is where you don't want to see the card: perfectly reasonable ban. It's the complete opposite to cards like Opposition Agent, which is pretty meh in a lower-power game, but only really playable at the top tiers of tables, where it's perfectly fine due to the power level of the table. It's very strong, but it's strong where it adds to the depth of the game, not where it kills tables.

[@Matthias-pj6th]

I think the reason why Opposition Agent wasn't banned is because of how it scales with the power level of the table: At more casual tables it tends to do very little (Because they generally don't run a lot of Tutors or Fetch Lands), but in Competitive (Where everyone is trying to do endless broken shit to win ASAP) it utterly wrecks house.

[@RedAequus]

Yeah his reaction to Agent confused me at first because it's just such an obviously fine card in 95% of groups (for the reasons you said), but then I realized he's in the 5% that Agent would actually negatively impact, so it makes sense that his perception is so warped. For most playgroups its the "oh shit the sweaty friend who refuses to powerlevel match our decks is about to go off" button

[@AbdielKavash]

One video I would love to see is evaluating cards with symmetric effects. Things like "destroy all creatures", or "each player draws a card", and so on, that at face value affect all players equally. These can be surprisingly tricky to rate, ranging from complete garbage, to bonkers if you can turn the same effect into an advantage for yourself and a disadvantage to your opponent.

[@mj1mj3]

Cimo really needs to understand that "Dies to Removal" is NOT a good reason for a card to be unbanned

[@chandgrit]

Yu-Gi-Oh player sees an op creature that's fine there's a million ways to remove it, they see a weak card that slows the game down. Ban it, delete it, even if there's outs i don't want to ever see it again.

[@jackpabich763]

And that if something monopolizes time, it is probably banned. This is a casual & social game. Not everyone has the interaction like cEDH

[@Oxitono]

​​​@@chandgritits more of a "yugioh players see a card that needs effort then it is worthless, a creature makes it even worse, they see something that makes a turn end immediately or even worse and turn it into a pass fest and want it banned"

[@lostalone9320]

Some things are obnoxious enough to say that the existence of removal isn't enough, but man if the rest of the table doesn't have a single counter or a single doomblade amongst them, what exactly did they put in their decks? If EDH is a format where everyone just quietly assembles their rickety contraption, why do we need other players except to feel smug we got there first?

[@cokolwiekwpisane]

​@@jackpabich763 yeah, because interaction cannot be fun. better let solitaire combo players resolve their stuff for 10 minutes straight. now thats fun

[@Gravewhisper]

CGB has done so many of these videos, yet he still seems to misunderstand the concept of the banlist. He justifies Limited Ressources by citing cEDH, when the banlist couldn't give a rat's ass about competitive. This banlist is and always was for casual players. cEDH doesn't factor into it at any level of consideration. You'd think CGB should've accepted this by now. xD

[@bilegttsolmon6027]

But isn't the causal side supposed to be largely self regulated as well? Why can some cards stay unbanned because people will shame the players out of the format while others have to be banned

[@LouisKing995]

They banned flash because of CEDH so you aren’t totally correct there.

[@lyra_tcm1953]

@@LouisKing995 when flash was banned is was said in the ban notes that it would probably be the only time a card was banned for cEDH

[@muffinhydra]

@@bilegttsolmon6027 The banlist is supposed to be a direction and not a directive. You are supposed to Rule 0 the bannlist. The banlist is supposed to be a letter of intent as to how the format is supposed to look like. Rather then saying "Oh coalition victory is banned but this similar card is not, BAD BANLIST DOESNT MAKE SENSE" you are supposed to have a Rule 0 convesation whenever or not the cards similar to coalition victory should be banned at your table/play group.

[@geoffreymullen3527]

@@bilegttsolmon6027 Self Policing is something that's a lot easier to control or regulate within a playgroup that you regularly play with. If you sit down with random people at a new store or an event it's a lot harder. A banlist ensures that there are certain cards you definitely won't be seeing when sitting with a new group.

[@amellie2]

i would love to see cimo's reaction to a group hug playstyle since he's such a competitive player who would hate the idea of giving his opponent anything

[@Jlizard27]

Winning with a group hug deck after giving the other players so many cards and land drops is so satisfying.

[@leadpaintchips9461]

Give him Ms. Bumbleflower.

[@Futuristic271]

Honestly finding a way to rate commanders would be really cool but it is a very subjective topic that is a matrix between popularity and viability

[@firstnext5482]

Just show him Phelddagrif and ask him what the game plan is.

[@dawsoncochran]

He literally has a Ms Bumbleflower group hug deck...

[@tyronewilson6463]

1:08:02 Two things. You only need 5 mana and a single turn cycle to make this card work because you can imprint in response to the mirror's upkeep trigger. See the following ruling from gatherer: "You may imprint a card on Panoptic Mirror in response to the upkeep-triggered ability. If you do, that card is available to copy when the triggered ability resolves." Secondly you can try also combo with "bad" extra turn effects like savor the moment instead of the better extra turn effects assuming you have enough lands in your deck to imprint a better extra turn effect later.

[@monopoman]

CGB seems to think any card that puts out a bad play experience in EDH is fine, Limited Resources is absurd and well worthy of it's ban even if you blow it up right away it can still be quite annoying at 1 mana. Now if they made it cost 5+ mana sure the card is fine whatever.

[@BusinessSkrub]

He thinks bad play experience is fine because he only sees himself playing these cards and getting the advantage. He's so competitive he literally can't see a scenario where he "lets" his opponent get away with playing a card like that. It's almost sad, in a way, honestly. I can't fathom being so miserable and unfun

[@Shazzmatazz]

oppo agent is a weird card where it gets better at high power levels and is kind of useless at lower power levels; you arent going to drop it against someone cracking an evolving wilds unless you're a certain type of person, but when decks get extremely tuned and tutor centric, agent is one of the only cards that can effectively keep them in line

[@LouisKing995]

It’s less good at low power but also more likely to elicit salt since low power players tend to be more sensitive about this kind of thing.

[@superdimentiobrolyX]

i lived in the era of trade secrets in commander and every time its just two players suddenly sitting in tophats and monocles on piles of gold laughing at the other two peasants, not only are they way ahead but now they are buds and will have eachothers back and it becomes a miserably unbalanced 2v2 every time

[@irou95]

Meanwhile I'm playing simic and outdrawing them both by accident

[@BlackJustice2637]

Sounds awful, good lord. At least the flavor is on point

[@jordan853]

We love cgb but I'm so glad he's not in charge of the commander banlist. 1v1 must really rot your brain because we don't HAVE to squeeze the fun out of this amazing format.

[@RickHardpack]

Having played a ton of Vintage Cube and a decent bit of actual Vintage, Library of Alexandria is busted. It's not that it draws you an extra card on the first turn. It's that it will draw you an extra card EVERY TURN for as long as the game goes. There are enough other ways to make mana in the format (lotus petal, other moxen, spirit guides, rituals, etc.) that turning one of your lands into "draw a card every turn" is super strong.

[@Fyrefrye]

One of the most common and realistic situations in which Trade secrets directly ends a game is not when the strongest player at the table plays it, because of the basic D&D logic "Talking is a free action." Everyone at the table will be able to argue with the targeted player about why it's bad to take the deal as it will just make the already wining player get even further ahead. What is actually more likely is when player A *appears* to be in the lead, and player B makes the argument with player C "I have ways to deal with A in my deck. Can you help me find them?" or even "I don't think I can stop A, but does anyone have a way to do it in their deck? I can help you get there." At this point the table politics is more likely to go in favor of the Trade Secrets Deal. It doesn't even matter if the deal was a legitimate offer or underhanded trickery, either way two players have now drawn probably upwards of 20-40 cards and are both solidly in the lead REGARDLESS of the board state before the Deal was made. If the Deal was honest, this makes 2 strong players and the rest of the table is fighting a massive uphill card advantage battle. If the Deal was underhanded, the player casting Trade Secrets probably wins on the spot with a combo. In neither situation is it fun for the rest of the players after the initial "Gotcha!" moment of taking down player A and in the second situation it feels even WORSE to the player C who's been taken advantage of and directly/indirectly lied to.

[@seandun7083]

What's an even bigger feel bad than being player C is being player D who already wasn't in the lead and now has to deal with 2 opponents who just drew half their decks.

[@malikileefred6011]

Nah man, limited resources is legitimately the easiest card to justify banning. “Turn two players can’t play more lands” is fine? Huh? In what realm does this card make a game better? Even if you want to argue that it dies to removal, there’s a 50/50 chance your stuck on 2 lands, with the majority of non-white/green answers (and the most popular white and green answers in beast within and generous gift) being impossible to play. If it actually scaled to 20 lands being allowed in play, it would probably be fine, as of now? Nah…

[@naitsab_33]

the easiest way to "balance" (pun intended) Limited Resources would be to restrict each player to having a maximum of 5 lands instead of a total of 5X. But also considering green is also the color which relies the least on "playing lands" considering the amount of tutor-basic-to-battlefield effects and dorks it isn't even that limited by it. Even then it would still be very good and considering it's one mana would still be a valid poster child for the banlist

[@hyaena23]

I find it so funny that I knew most of the ban cards for the episode of Commander at Home, where Ben Brode used the deck of banned cards 😂

[@AbdielKavash]

One thing neither of the hosts mentioned about Emrakul is that you don't have to use it maliciously. "Hey Timmy, how would you like to take two turns in a row? Yes? I play Emrakul, targetting Timmy. In the turn under my control I do what Timmy tells me to do (unless it targets me), and then Timmy gets a second turn for himself! Let's gang up and use that to take down Steve across the table. (And I get a 13/13 flying trample out of the deal.)"

[@An_Amazing_Login5036]

I mean.. I would say that Library of Alexandria is just as deserving of a ban as Sol Ring is. Possibly more so. Which means, yes, I would want it banned even if it were a 0.50€ card everyone has access to.

[@eulefranz944]

Library at 1cent will be giga busted! Island+library to threaten any of the 2 mana counters, endstep draw. Bruuuuv insane. And if you have fast mana and spit out your hand, who cares the card still produces mana! There is no cost to play it

[@1ryb360]

It's driving me insane how CGB thinks Emrakul is busted but Limited Resources, Trade Secrets, and Library of fucking Alexandria are fine. Like what's he smoking lol

[@pairot01]

Regarding Library of Alexandria, I think Cimo is overestimating how quickly your hand empties in mtg. It's not that much of a sacrifice to slow down and get 3 or 4 cards out of the library and them dump everything, and trade some resources so your advantage shows. Of course, it works way better in 1v1 than in commander, where the other 3 players can team up until you're off the library.

[@murrayfriedman8297]

Cimoo. Your card evaluation has been on point but you missed the mark on Library of Alexandria. You’re missing that it’s essentially free conditional card draw both in the sense it only costs you tapping a land to do and it’s attached to a land that can just tap for mana anyway, both highly valuable traits in MTG and worth of being the power 10th.

[@juliandacosta6841]

Also that you if you play it turn one you are drawing at least 3 cards.

[@Sinzari]

It's as close to Pot of Greed as MtG can get in the sense of being free card draw with no downside.

[@LouisKing995]

Irrelevant. You want to waste your turn one to draw one card then great, but my deck will eat you alive if you aren’t even fixing turn one.

[@murrayfriedman8297]

@ the card is objectively very powerful for this reason. It’s not really up for debate sorry lol.

[@BusinessSkrub]

​@@LouisKing995"I'm such a big strong player I'm so good at the game I'm gonna beat your butt!!1!" okay Timmy, tell mommy it's time to go home now, eh

[@mewr11]

The best part about Cimo's mind being blown by Emrakul TPE is that it's the *FOURTH* magic card to take control of an opponent's turn. (For the curious: Mindslaver, Sorin Markov, and Worst Fears) WRT Library of Alexandria, I don't ever want to see it unbanned, even if it were only $5. For one, it would just become a mulligan lottery that should never not be in your deck (for the record, I'm not a fan of Sol Ring being in the format). For another, the fact that it's a land and not an artifact means people would feel pressure to not play answers for it - my playgroup might be okay with Armageddon and Stone Rain going into decks, but a lot of people I've met won't even play Cleansing Wildfire/Ghost Quarter effects. And finally, the card is absolutely miserable in stax decks. Maybe adding two more players to the mix dilutes the pain, but in 1v1 settings its practically a turn 1 kill.

[@k9commander]

In my experience, (I understand that not everyone feels the same) mass land destruction is a big no no, but single target land destruction is fine. The issue is that most single target land destruction sucks when playing multiplayer. Cleansing Wildfire is often played in decks with indestructible lands like the two color artifact lands. If your opponents don't play a land needing removal, you can target your indestructible land and ramp. Otherwise, it's a dead card in hand. WotC needs to print model single target land destruction cards.

[@kevinheng2345]

The most insane takes I have ever seen on the banlist, Trade Secrets, Limited Resources and Library of Alexandra all well deserve their position on the banlist. Trade secrets instantly takes 2 people out of the game and turns every game into a 1v1, which is not what we want in our multiplayer format. A land that can draw you a card almost every single turn that fits into every single deck is insanely powerful. If you draw it early, limited resources legit just reads turn 2/3 you can't play any more lands and unless you're in green your enchantment removal is unlikely to be 1 or 2 mana. Not exactly the type of experience people are looking for in general. I'm glad that the comment section at least maintains some sanity, but I must say the fun of these videos is generally the non-familiar person being confused about certain things about the card or format and then the familiar person explaining well about what makes the card busted or not busted. Having 3 cards in a row just be dead wrong from CGB was a very frustrating. It's totally expected for Cimo to be confused or mistaken, but the whole point of these videos is the knowledge disparity.

[@mjkuhnke]

enchantment removal is actually not that easy compared to other things. White and green have it, black has 2 spells total both of which are inefficient and hurt you, blue has counterspells and some bounce back to hand(which can be really good), and red has just chaos warp. At least in my experience when i don't have white or green i tend to bring everything available and it's still just dumb luck if i ever get removal. actually have an easier time with land removal generally and most people just play all gas with no interactions so can't count on them to help Library of Alexandria is just nutso. Whenever we play the proxy vintage commander the people that get it, it's like 3+ cards minimum and it's not costing you any cards and the most minimal of resources to do it and when you can't do that it's still mana with no downsides A crazy mana start is still probably better but still, if it was 5$ and not banned it would just be another guaranteed slot in every deck because why not? It still works for a sol ring+signet start and it can be a card draw start if you don't get that

[@malikileefred6011]

Nah man, limited resources is legitimately the easiest card to justify banning. “Turn two players can’t play more lands” is fine? Huh? In what realm does this card make a game better? Even if you want to argue that it does to removal, there’s a 50/50 chance your stuck on 2 lands, with the majority of non-white/green answers (and the most popular white and green answers in beast within and generous gift) being impossible to play.

[@badgtter9095]

I think cgb means, turn two tear Asunder or light of hope or a billion other cards

[@krackergrit]

Agreed easy ban

[@malikileefred6011]

@@badgtter9095 Sure, I just don’t think that many of those cards are run often in the wild. Three colors have a very hard time dealing with enchantments already on the battlefield with only 2 mana. And the mere fact that an answer does exist doesn’t mean that the card is fine. Theoretically, every card on the banlist is answered by Summary Dismissal (exile all spells and counter all abilities for 4 mana) that doesn’t mean every card on the banlist is fine. Tl;dr dies to removal is generally agreed to be a bad argument yet that’s the argument CGB gave

[@jaeusa160]

@26:50 I feel called out! But yeah, I really do feel the point of Commander (EDH) was supposed to be fun, dusting off obscure janky cards to fill your deck with. Not a 90 card cookie cutter decks where the last few irrelevant deck filler cards you toss in are your "spicy homebrew". Whoop de flippin do, go play Standard. If it were me, Commander would have a like 300+ card ban list. Get those tutors and too generically good Artifacts out, make people play some silly 3 mana 3/2 from Weatherlight because it kind of has some tribal synergy or something. I always say leave it to competitive players to find the most boring possible way to play a game. ;p

[@Futuristic271]

I think the hope of brackets is to achieve the 'bam list' a player like you wants while leaving other players in brackets they sound fun

[@FalseHerald]

@Futuristic271 as someone with similar opinions, wizards will never get close to the low power level that I want. They cannot conceive of it.

[@petiteexplication6249]

As YGO player Limited ressources feels like mystic mine in a way and the library is basically chicken game

[@matthewpopow6647]

On Trade Secrets: I think the issue is that it takes the game to a two player game. If the player allows twice THEY can use their 4 cards to attempt to move foreward while the other two get one opponent with 8 cards and another with 4

[@Piggymonst3r]

Panoptic Mirror isn't even close to bad. you have a single turn to remove it, which assumes the other three players have a means to deal with an artifact with a (likely, at the time of a 5 cmc card) reduced hand size. Thankfully, the format isn't catered to cEDH, so they dont expect you to have an optimal artifact removal in your hand at all times.

[@MythrilZenith]

Library is an interesting card. You basically play one turn behind, but get up 1 extra card for every turn you continue to play 1 turn behind. It's a card that explores an interesting possibility space and I REALLY wish it wasn't such a money piece so we could have people actually play it at every level and test the ban list.

[@michaelcollins4534]

It's my favorite card I've never gotten to play

[@lostalone9320]

Nah, Library is BUSTED. You do NOT play a turn behind, because it also taps for mana, so you either get a colourless mana OR a card, depending what you need. And both of those are awesome.

[@PeiluGan]

Ben Brode recently played it in Commander at Home (along with every other banned card in the game). He was constantly at 7, basically drew an exta card every single turn, and was never really behind. It's extremely broken, and if his deck had any amount of synergy, would have completely taken over the game.

[@TheTexasDice]

try to jam magus of the Library in your decks! a lot less powerful, but you get the effects

[@Zzod0000]

@@lostalone9320 cant cast solring or any other fast mana or your are off library and you put a wastes in your deck. can t play fish or rhystic or you put a waste in your decks ect

[@ryanpeters3812]

Library is better than people think. The problem with Library is that it's not really a turn off. Take a typical blue player. Island, pass, instant draw. It's the same idea, except it's repeatable and essentially only 1 mana. In decks with wheels, it's literally a free draw multiple times. That makes it an instant must in cEDH, with an even crazier price tag, as it would spike with new usage. It needs to remain banned. If your group wants to use it, you can rule 0 it, but for the general populace, it's better banned.

[@seandun7083]

Yeah. Hell you can even play a mana rock on turn 2 then go right back to drawing afterwards.

[@haxalicious]

Library is NOT fine, any time you see Commander with no banlist and it is played, it's activated every turn and the owner is constantly at 7 the entire game. Easily the strongest land ever printed.

[@StefanvanHam]

This. If it was 5 dollars and unbanned, it would be an auto include in nearly every single commander deck. We have too many of those already. A land that might occasionally draw you 2 cards through the entire game with no significant downside? It's stupid.

[@Zzod0000]

in cedh you often have to force turn 1 or 2 and then you are off library for most of the game afterwards. you are also frequently above 7 cards in cedh because of rhystic and fish. you are also time walking yourself when you activate it

[@surfinggarchomp2820]

I’d say ancient tomb, Mishras workshop, and bazaar of Baghdad are probably better, but the card is really strong

[@StefanvanHam]

@surfinggarchomp2820 2 of those are banned, and the tomb would indeed also a auto include if it were 5 dollars.

[@jmanwild87]

@@StefanvanHam Mishra's workshop and bazaar of baghdad are not banned in commander

[@GoDzJtFr]

As someone who also wants Sol Ring banned, I definitely don't want Library of Alexandria added to the format. We don't need more powerful neutral cards that fit into literally every deck cutting down deck diversity, keep it banned Edit: Oh man, CGB is so off base for Trade Secrets. Anyone who played in that 2 year window after the first set of precons can confirm that it's a 3 mana card that effectively kills 2 players at the table and turns the game into a 1v1, it's honestly top 5 most justified bans in the format's entire existence

[@HakureiIllusion]

Library of Alexandria's biggest issue is that it snowballs. Getting it down early and activating it to keep your hand up not only gives you that card advantage but also makes it easier to keep activating throughout the game, removing the one downside of the card. The perceived entry barrier, price, total lack of opportunity cost for its deck slot, and colorless color identity are contributing factors to the ban but the two main reasons why it's banned I'd say are power-level related. First there's the situation I outlined above, and second, what the RC said in its ban description: one extra card here and there is so innocuous (especially when four people are taking turns so it seems like it's being activated less often than it really is) that it's really difficult for new-to-mid-level players to recognize just how busted it is. Its ban is so deserved, and the idea that people think it can be unbanned to me is even more proof that it needs to stay banned.

[@LouisKing995]

You are vastly inflating the value you get from one extra card in a 4 player game. This is ass early with the speed of the format now. If you aren’t playing some on turn, and just playing a non fixing land to give you one card then you are falling behind.

[@CoL_Drake]

it cost 2000 while its banned in the most famous format where it would be played in any deck ... how much if its legal in commande ? 20k ? 50k ?

[@foxtastic]

I got magic cards for Christmas, it was like six booster packs and one of the cards I pulled was a "Doubling Season" which was really nice!

[@Lordidude]

Good for you! It's a fun card to play.

[@Zarzunabas1]

I actually played my first commander game for Christmas. I won. Nobody attacked me out of pity, because I was mana-flooded, but pulled an "Exsanguinate" last minute.

[@geraldsmith4184]

One of my favorite parts of commander is that it can find an equilibrium. If someone gets a turn 1 sol ring, then they’re basically playing a 3v1 for a while, until it’s balanced out. And if someone isn’t doing anything for a while, they can often get left alone and have a comeback later. It keeps games interesting and dynamic

[@nerd_mor]

These collabs keep me coming back

[@emocelot]

Cimo totally leaning towards that dimir/esper energy

[@sunstrid3r44]

Every ygo player i know that tried mtg leaned to dimir (or at least black+something), after playing ygo for a time i can se why

[@mcseal-j7m]

39:55 one thing you didn't consider though CGB is that Library is 2 grand WHILE being banned in commander. If it was unbanned it would probably go up way more, maybe even double in price. If it was 5 dollars, sure it's probably fine? Very strong, but probably not ban worthy.

[@LouisKing995]

Who cares ? Someone does this turn one and what ? They haven’t ramped? They haven’t fixed, they are up one card. So what ?

[@mcseal-j7m]

@ because cards have value? Remember when they banned some expensive cards and people got death threats? Yeah. The issue isn’t the power level of Library. It’s the price. It stays banned because it’s expensive like the power 9.

[@LouisKing995]

@@mcseal-j7m I dunno man, we have a lot of crazy expensive cards that are legal. I think 0 people in the real world would cry if library was unbanned

[@Gantaknows]

One thing you didn't mention about opposition agent is that because you control the opponent when they are searching you not only get to steal a card but you also get to look at their hand.

[@JohnSmith-l1r]

What cimo doesn’t understand about opposition agent is it also lets you look at there hand and technically set cards since you have all hidden zones are known by the controlling card.

[@Nr4747]

This is untrue. Opposition Agent only let's you control opposing player's library search, you do not get to look at their hand or any face-down cards they might have, nor are you privy to any other private information (like having noted names of cards or players if instructed to do so by an effect).

[@JohnSmith-l1r]

Any instances of a player being controlled gives the opponent knowledge of all hidden zones as its revelent to what I want to search from your deck, you have breach combo I’m getting a way to stop it

[@LouisKing995]

@@Nr4747so confident yet so wrong, delicious.

[@yourdoom9898]

@@Nr4747 Comprehensive Rules 720.4. If information about an object in the game would be visible to the player being controlled, it’s visible to both that player and the controller of the player. If information about cards outside the game would be visible to the player being controlled, it’s visible only to that player, not the controller of the player. Since Opposition Agent gives a player control of a PLAYER during their search of the deck, during the moment their deck is being searched, the controlling player is given ALL information they controlled player can see, including that player's hand zone and the objects therein, and face down cards on the battlefield controlled by that player. See respective rules: 708.5. At any time, you may look at a face-down spell you control on the stack or a face-down permanent you control (even if it’s phased out). You can’t look at face-down cards in any other zone or face-down spells or permanents controlled by another player. 400.1. A zone is a place where objects can be during a game. There are normally seven zones: library, hand, battlefield, graveyard, stack, exile, and command. Some older cards also use the ante zone. Each player has their own library, hand, and graveyard. The other zones are shared by all players.

[@sebastianl4135]

I wish CGB had shared the story of how he reacted when Opposition Agent was first played against him by Shea in the Worst Possible Commander Show. There was also that time he Emrakul'd Blake, exiled his commander and chose to leave it in Exile. Crazy good stuff! I look forward to the video where you help Cimo build a Commander deck.

[@CalebDenn]

Cimoo has seen that Emraikul before though. He did a video a long time ago where he looked at Magic cards before with no context and this was one of the cards he looked at.

[@BadfishgamingTTV]

The best with Emrakul is exiling their commander and choosing not to move it to the command zone

[@FlawlessRhythmGG]

I really like the subtle shark typhoon background, it's a nice touch.

[@filipecattoni]

Did CGB really say he will "never understand why" Limited Resources is banned?? It seems pretty obvious to me why

[@altrivotzck6565]

He says that kind of thing about a lot of the cards on the commander ban list that really, really deserve to be there.

[@riversduvall1176]

I absolutely lost my mind when he said Limited Resources was ok. It’s especially crazy when he mentioned Chaos Warp as Red’s catch-all for enchantments considering that it costs 3, meaning half of the time you wouldn’t even have enough mana to warp Limited Resources

[@AzureAiluren]

Are you really that surprised? From mr "Never touches green whatsoever, what is ramp???". Also he's kinda dumb about the banlist.

[@OuterCraft]

The commander rules committee infected CGB with brain worms. He focuses more about complaining about the ban list than understanding why each card is banned.

[@faber3813]

​@@riversduvall1176 i mean, you can access mana with artifacts (sol ring eg)

[@alexanderfisher7261]

Trade secrets has other dynamics that are problematic. It often invalidates a lot of what happened up to the point it was cast, and players that have given up on the game can cast trade secrets knowing that it will give an opponent the win.

[@EthanBeattie-wh4zx]

For the engagement: My friends got together and got me an Arabian Nights Mountain for Christmas! I had one a couple years ago that was stolen (along with the majority of my collection), and they knew it was my favorite out of all the cards gone, so they each chipped in and got it for me.

[@qriist]

1:00 "Ahhhh, after 10,000 years I'm free, it's time to conquer Earth!" -@Cimoooooooo‬

[@ryangainey94]

I played banned commander once. I got targeted with Trade Secrets and I won that game from being in a losing position prior to that. Despite that I was only drawing 2 per their 4 each time, the thing is, I was piloting a mono blue deck with multiple counterspells... They were using a multicolored blue deck and had fewer counterspells as a result. Even though their card advantage was greater, I simply had more answers after letting them find their payout

[@seandun7083]

Yeah. How much they draw every time you draw also doesn't matter after some point. If you draw 70 cards, they will also probably stop around there at which point you both probably found your Reliquary Tower of you play it and the other 2 players aren't really relevant anymore.

[@SecretPurpleQ]

we have to teach cimo the phrase "dies to removal"

[@hircenedaelen]

No, that phrase should be purged from the lexicon of all players

[@jamesaditya5254]

the concept pretty much exist in Yugioh. Powercreep has come to a point to where if your deck's "boss monster" or payoff doesn't have some form of protection or has great ways to cycle it back onto the board, that strategy is just not worth considering for the top tables. Because even cards with really good protection has outs that's a common sideboard option, if your deck is trying to stick a payoff that dies to removal in Yugioh you're just wasting time, because spot removal is very easily accessible for pretty much any half competent deck

[@SecretPurpleQ]

Yeah i was mostly making a joke about how many people scoff at cards without protection as not being strong regardless of what the cards do. It's used in multiple TCG communities as a catch-all phrase to excuse any amount of insanity just because it can be spot removed.

[@faereman]

Oh we do have that in Yugioh, we just say "this card has no protection".

[@BussyConnoisseur]

I believe in another universe, where Sol Ring is banned, CGB would argue it's not that bad and should be unbanned. With how hot his takes are all the time

[@seandun7083]

Yeah. I'm surprised he doesn't think that the Moxen would "probably be fine actually".

[@dark_rit]

"You can put boardwipes and card draw on the panoptic mirror, that's way too good!" *Points at time warp and the bevy of extra turn cards available that don't care if an opponent has a board.* Infinite turns is also infinite card draw as well as attack and untap steps. Limited resources in competitive yes it would be bad. It got banned for the same reason as trade secrets as a card designed for 1v1 it's irrelevant, but in 4 player you play it early everyone is stuck on almost no lands. Some enchantment removal costs more than 2-3 mana that is popular in the format so they cannot answer it unless they get a lot of manarocks out.

[@seandun7083]

I think the idea of being Mirror being on there is less that it's too good at comboing (people generally self select away from infinite turn combos in the casual tables after all), but more that boardwiling 3 turns in a row is boring even if it's not going to put you in a winning position.

[@leadpaintchips9461]

One of the things about what makes commander casual is how inconsistent it is. 99 card singleton is only reliable once you build tutors and redundancies into it, and Opposition Agent punishes that deckbuilding. It might be miserable to play against, but that's only if you go against the spirit of commander and don't trust in the heart of the cards, which is funny that Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't.

[@thebigbear4696]

MTGGoldfish did a Commander Clash episode with no ban list and you want to know what the most impactful card was? The card that more than anything else won the game for the person that won? I’ll give you a hint. It wasn’t a banned card. Smothering Tithe. Not saying it should be banned but dang is it a good card.

[@samuelkinnunen828]

I got my first commander precons and started playing for the first time

[@WilliamNiles-ro2dl]

Opposition Agent and Maralen the mornsong combo is 🔥🔥🔥

[@bannassrint8216]

cool! have a good time in magic

[@Xanderj89]

Same! Which did you go with, I’ve been having a blast with Bloomburrow’s “Bello, Bard of the Brambles” commander precon

[@ender4101]

Welcome to the game!

[@ghostkill221]

Congrats! Hope you have fun, make friends and get a good pod!

[@typoko]

Nah, people hate tutors because it takes forever for people to pick their cards. Bro is demonic tutoring and doesn't know what to get.

[@TheNaturalnuke]

It’s two things, they either don’t know what they want and they take forever, or they ALWAYS grab the same thing and it gets stale

[@semisolaire5866]

That's the entire game of yu-gi-oh now. Everything adds something or plays it from the deck

[@FirekingBarong]

That somewhat sounds like a problem thats related to the playgroup tho, if u play every 2 days with the same decks that shouldnt happen anymore ^^

[@frokghug]

Tbh I dislike tutors in commander because it’s kind of defeats the purpose of a singleton format. I don’t mind tutors to find a win-con if a game is going on for too long, but seeing people use them to access combos early or find their best spells takes some of the fun out of the format imo

[@FirekingBarong]

@@frokghug So playing the good cards in your deck is not having fun? In 100 cards, its quite possible to draw the worst 20 cards in your deck, so having a rope out helps the whole table playing together so 1 doesnt get to far behind and have some impact ^^

[@chrisbaldwin8570]

In high school, we would play casual magic games during breaks or lunch and one of our friends had a control deck with Library, Winter Orb, Icy Manipulator, Force of Will, and various other cards from older sets and focused on keeping you from playing magic. I think there was a Moat in there to. So, I'm very familiar with the power of this card, it allows control or burn decks to keep up their tempo and facilitate always having the necessary resources to win.

[@jurgnobs1308]

I think limited resources is just so much worse in commander than 1v1, so it should probably stay banned

[@kcStranger]

If Library of Alexandria was $5...I don't think it's particularly more busted than any number of other good cards in Commander, but I don't think it makes the format more fun, so I don't mind it being banned.

[@matd2892]

1:12:15 I have a friend who when we got into commander 3 years ago got hyped over Panoptic Mirror. I let him know its banned. He has sent this card to me about deck ideas 4 or 5 times in these 3 years and each time I have to remind him the card is banned. He loves the idea of this card and never once has he wanted to pair it with extra turns.

[@leadpaintchips9461]

Frankly, if your playgroup is cool with it, let him go ham with it.

[@dark_rit]

@@leadpaintchips9461 Yeah the only reason you could ever ban mirror is take an extra turn cards. Outside of that, sure, go nuts with it. Though the table would probably get upset if you imprinted scrambleverse or something like that on it.

[@matd2892]

@leadpaintchips9461 (un)fortunately our play group has moved on from commander. The format is broken and unbalanced and we have started playing board and card games designed for the 4 player experience. We are much happier now. No one sits out or gets mana screwed for 90 minutes on game nights. I love magic! I just hate the cards they have been designing recently. They do too much. A card shouldn't be an engine and a pay off on its own. Commander has ruined magic.

[@firstnext5482]

​@@dark_rit You haven't imagined the possibility of me imprinting Armageddon. (honestly though I'd imprint Goblin Game. Turn the game into a weird Mario Party thing)

[@MrMarnel]

Just let him play it imo. That's the point of having a casual format with friends.

[@vezokpiraka]

Someone played Trade secrets in a game (we didn't realise it was banned) and we quickly realised why it's banned. Usually the person who plays more Trade Secrets has more counters than the opponent and it's just a win the game card. It's really easy to figure out why the card is banned. Nobody would decline drawing their whole deck because they can also win the game on the spot and it's worth it to have a chance than just leave the opponent draw 4.

[@moalboris239]

I think a big thing with Library of Alexandria that wasn't really talked about enough was how cheap the effect is. Sure you need to have seven cards for a draw but that's not extremely hard for a control deck and even when you don't have the draw it's still colorless mana. So on the floor you got a colorless land. For the ceiling you can draw like three plus cards over a game without paying any cards for that card advantage. Which is a huge swing for any control deck that can get a hold of it.

[@hakarthemage]

Should have shown the Maralen combo with Opposition agent.

[@Dhips.]

My favorite thing about Opp Agent is getting to look at the opponents hand. You control them, therefore you see their hand. I learned that from legacy.

[@137shadowX]

more like cgb doesn't understand why half the banlist exists because he's incapable of telling what an OP card looks like.

[@LouisKing995]

He’s just not a baby, and would probably be good at being open at the rule 0 about what kind of game he’s looking for

[@CoL_Drake]

the few times i saw alexandria played in commander where it was allowed because no ban list or whatever, it was the single most broken card i have ever witnessed in commander ... your insane if you want it unbanned ... its like 10 times better then black lotus xD also price would go from 2k to 20k xD

[@ryangainey94]

Limited Resources... The kind of deck that would play this card is one with other forms of land destruction as well as ways to advance their own lands out faster. That first part about making everyone sac all but 5 is rarely relevant. The last bit is what's tough. If you have land ramp early enough paired with this, one or more opponents are locked out at 2 lands or fewer. Even though enchantment removal exists in the format, you now have to potentially wait several turns out to draw it during which time the other person is solitaire-ing and probably winning. And that's assuming you even keep the land... If this gets played before 10 lands enter, you can control out the game with targeted land destruction. Even in 1v1 with 5 lands vs 5 lands, you just blow up one and suddenly you can play a 6th and keep them locked on 4, and so on

[@Fyrefrye]

27:00 As far as the "tutors are not in the spirit of the format" discussion, here's my take after over a decade in the game. Some players (and I often fall into this category myself) see the 100 card singleton decks as an opportunity to escape the consistency of more competitive formats. They want their deck(s) to have a theme and goal, but they want the deck itself to play out differently every game to keep things fresh. I have personally grown bored of and benched/dissembled multiple commander decks because they became too consistent and only ever won one specific way or through one exact combo of individual cards. (Example: I had a mono black Chainer deck that won every game with Grey Merchant... it got really boring for both me and my playgroup) This is why I will never play an Oracle deck and why CEDH has zero appeal to me. Those games are so linear and the decks so streamlined that I see the 100 card "requirement" as nothing more than a hindrance to shuffleing and a slight nerf to the potential quality of your opening hand. I still have many tutors in all my decks, but the targets I have for those tend to be more varied, or the combos are intentionally complex enough to require enough different pieces that it will rarely play identically multiple games in a row.

[@AzureAetherYT]

I think if Library of Alexandria were a 5$ card I think it would like Sol Ring. A card that every deck wants and can easily play. However unlike Sol Ring I think it wouldn't be nearly as warping because drawing it late isn't very good. I do think that opening Library on turn 1 and playing it to get an extra draw or two in the first few cycles would be pretty powerful.

[@seandun7083]

Keep in mind it's not just an extra draw or two, it's an extra draw until you decide to play more than 1 non land card during your turn. If you are worried about falling behind on tempo, you can even take turn 2 off to play a mana rock without going below 7. You can even play 4 mana ramp on turn 3 and still be able to activate it turn 4 before you make your land drop.

[@inscrutablewut]

Decks absolutely are supposed to be variant and tutors do work against the spirit of the format. In a casual game oppo agent just bricks land ramp. Oppo agent wouldn't be necessary if the most efficient tutors were banned as they should be, but commander players would pitch an absolute fit.

[@botondkabina7534]

Just because sol ring is so good it does not mean library is okay. We don’t need both, I’d rather have neither of these mistakes of early design.

[@seandun7083]

Yes! It annoys me that so many people use the "it's not as strong as Sol Ring so it's probably fine" argument when the RC was pretty clear that it's at a bannable power level but it's grandfathered in at this point. The Moxen wouldn't be as powerful as Sol Ring either but no one is clamoring for them to be unbanned.

[@nyvisalays2475]

Limited Resources being banned and other land destruction not being banned makes sense when you think about it in term of fitting into commander: it's just not written for the format.