Commencal AM V4 & Kona Process 153 - (Special analysis)

[@MtbEnduroChile]

Andre, what about the ns snabb? thanks for your videos mate!!

[@andrextr]

Snabb is a good bike. It has good pedalling efficiency (Anti-squats of 100-120%), it's quite neutral to braking (anti-rise 50%) and it's slightly progressive (progressivity of 25%). Bye

[@MtbEnduroChile]

Thanks a lot Andre! Keep it up! Cheers from Chile!!

[@cipangoango]

@@MtbEnduroChile con que aquí es el origen de todo, saludos a los dos, muy buenos videos.

[@PuLSe980]

DUDE!!! you did it! Im not sure if it was because of me but I really appreciate it! :D

[@andrextr]

Thanks :)

[@noble2156]

Glad to see you back

[@rogerarmendariz3810]

Can you do a video on Commencal V 3 it has been re introduced again in 2017 model. The shock is in an unusual rearward facing position what the force curve on that?

[@kettedh]

I would love to see that too.... v3 or sx v3

[@andrextr]

Sorry for the late response. DH V3 has a high anti-squat (due to the high main-pivot position), and therefore it also has a high anti-rise (~90%). The progressivity is normal for a DH bike (around 40%). Bye

[@RowdyPNW]

I think he's asking about the 2017 Meta SX that was re-released? Can you compare this bike to Kona? Thanks for all the info you share! Much apreciated. www.commencalusa.com/meta-sx-c102x3044466

[@Seangfk]

Nice videos! I'd be interested to see an analysis of the new lower linkage driven shock on the new Santa Cruz Bronson. Apparently it doesn't have the same regressive-linear-progressive leverage ratio and is now a more "linearly-progressive" leverage ratio. Thanks for the awesome analysis!

[@ZIggyRIbetto]

thank you remaking the commencal!

[@etibo6]

Hi, I'm trying to understand the anti squat and pedal kickback in relation with the chain position on the cogs. If I understand your video for a single chainring of 32T like the Commencal more you are on the bigger cog (42T) less you have a % of anti squat but you have a bigger pedal kick back? I thought the anti squat and pedal kick back were kind of proportional like more your anti squat is more you have a pedal kick back? I'm little bit confuse, can you explain to me? Thanks

[@kenw8875]

Excellent overview on the kinematics of these two MTBs Andre! Currently in the process of building a custom downhill rig with the 2020 Kona Process 153 Al/DL. Would you please add this bike into the the Linkage X3 (Personal version) software. Started using this software this week and loving it!

[@andrextr]

Hello! Sorry but I never did the model for the 2020 Process, only for the 2016 version. But if you have a good non-distorted picture / or a schematic of the frame you can make the model easily and accurately. Check my video about Linkage X3 which explains how to do it. Thanks.

[@Befree6]

Hi,do you think that if i put coil shock with progressive spring on my commencal meta v4 2016 it will work fine?

[@andrextr]

Yeah sure, you will get a firmer feeling at the end of travel. If bottom outs are an issue that can minimize it.

[@Befree6]

@@andrextr now i have a air shock but even with 6 air volume spacers and correct preasurre i bottom out rear shock on almost every ride.So as I want to put coil i think that I will bottom it out to easily with linear spring.

[@michaelf1760]

Nice videos I always enjoy watching you compare the suspension geometry of each bike, if only the manufacturers would release this data so buying a bike would be easier! Would you be able to do a video featuring the 2016 Norco Range? I'm curious as to how that bike compares to the others

[@andrextr]

Norco's are quite good. The range has a very high anti-squat (average AS around 140%, for a 32T chainring), and a very good anti-rise (around 50%). It also has a nice progressivity (30%). Bye

[@michaelf1760]

Thanks! I look forward to watching more of your videos, btw your rebound setup video helped me out so much, my bike handles much better now

[@andrextr]

Thanks :) Have fun!

[@Squidsonbikeswithhats3958]

Do u think u could do a video about the trek remedy 27.5 from 2015 or 2016 if the suspension didn't change between the year

[@andrextr]

Hi, i think the frame is the same, isn't it? You can check my analysis of Trek Slash '16 since they are very identical (main difference is the travel), all the other parameters remain quite identical. Bye

[@TheDestinator94]

Interesting videos! Can you do an analysis of the 2016 Radon Swoop 170? That would be great.

[@andrextr]

OK, but meanwhile you can check the Radon 200 analysis, although it's a DH bike the main conclusions are quite similar (they have good braking, and low progressivity, and an OK anti-squat). Bye

[@domenjeram9180]

Could you please do comparison between specialized status 1 and scott voltage fr?

[@andrextr]

Hi, both Status and Voltage FR have a progressivity of 30%. The Voltage FR has a huge anti-squat, around 180%, which is a lot (this happens because the main pivot is very high)! While the Status has a very low anti-squat around 40%. Since on DH bikes, pedaling is not very important, I think it's better to have a lower anti-squat since it reduces pedal kickback, and also chain forces don't affect suspension (chainless feeling). Regarding braking independency, the Status is quite good (anti-rise around 60%), while Voltage has an high anti-rise (110%), so, braking don't affect much Status, while it stiffens a bit the Voltage rear suspension. Bye

[@domenjeram9180]

thanks for the answer

[@etibo6]

Do you think that putting the brake caliper on the seat stay will improve the anti-rise?

[@andrextr]

Yes it will reduce the anti-rise, but, since the wheel is mounted on the chainstay, if you place the brake caliper on seat stay it will not pivot around the disc, so it will not work well. Pyga bikes does this. They use the caliper on seat stay and wheel on chainstay (to no void FSR patent, which already expired by the way). But on pyga bikes, the pivot is really close to the axle, in order to the make the caliper pivoting almost with the disc.... However there are some reviews refering brake clearance issues.... Bye

[@etibo6]

Ok so I understand that if you want the caliper on the seat stay, the wheel has to be on the seat stay too like a horst link suspension. In the other way, it's impossible for the reason you mention?

[@andrextr]

Yes, the brake and the wheel should be located on the same frame element, otherwise the distance between calipter and rotor disc would change across the suspension travel. Bye

[@thomasoupas1792]

a solution is to use a floating brake , but it can be a little more complicated to do. it's a good solution to put a low , stable antirise.

[@andrextr]

Exactly Thomas Oupas.

[@sssssssssllllllllll6387]

Hey. Thanks for the vid. Does this mean that a coil shock in Kona Process 153 with old geometry would not be a very good idea?

[@SteveGraber]

I love this type of technical analysis. Thanks for making these. Also your rebound setup video was very helpful. Have you seen the new Pivot Switchblade 29/27+ bike? I would be very interested in seeing your analysis of it.

[@andrextr]

Didn't look at it yet, but I'm not expecting anything strange... :)

[@danjdavison]

Could you do a video on the Rocky Mountain maiden?

[@andrextr]

Actually that bikes is pretty could due to it's IC position and braking independency, and I already built the model some months ago. Indeed, Maiden is one of the most braking independent bikes (with an anti-rise very low... 20%). Meaning that braking won't affect the suspension. Anti-squat is very low (around 30% on average), meaning that pedaling efficiency is not the best, but on a DH bike that's not hugely important (the advantage is the low pedal kickback). The progressivity is also good for a DH bike, 50%! Bye :)

[@andrextr]

Actually that bikes is pretty could due to it's IC position and braking independency, and I already built the model some months ago. Indeed, Maiden is one of the most braking independent bikes (with an anti-rise very low... 20%). Meaning that braking won't affect the suspension. Anti-squat is very low (around 30% on average), meaning that pedaling efficiency is not the best, but on a DH bike that's not hugely important (the advantage is the low pedal kickback). The progressivity is also good for a DH bike, 50%! Bye :)

[@Aiuraech2111]

Can you please do the Vitus Bikes Sommet CRX Carbon. Thank you.

[@PabloDiabloPL]

hi, great video! why do you feel that a more progressive bike is better for aggressive riding? i think any (linear) bike can be made progressive with air shock and extra volume spacers, right?....

[@andrextr]

+PabloDiabloPL a shock with extra spacers is not as progressive as people migth think. You probably can increase the overall progressivity by +20 or 30% by doing that at the best scenario. In a Capra you already get 70% from the linkage... with the same shock you can go up to 100%, meaning that it takes the double amount of force to get the full travel when comparing to a full linear bike and shock. Bye

[@andrextr]

+andrextr so, to finish, a linear frame is quite easy to bottom out even with a progressive shock, and a progressive damping. With a progressive frame you dont need to rely so much on the shock setup.

[@andrextr]

+PabloDiabloPL if the riding is not very aggresive then you can use a more linear setup to use more the full travel

[@PabloDiabloPL]

+andrextr I ride Giant Trance 140mm travel with big volume spacer. progressive enough. sometimes i feel that the rebound is too strong because of the progressivity....

[@PabloDiabloPL]

+PabloDiabloPL the 2 bikes you described in the video are said to be one of the best bikes for aggressive trail/enduro riding, but are not very progressive.... do you know why is that?

[@NiallJones1986]

What are your opinions of the Cube Fritzz 180/Stereo 160? Very keen on the Fritzz personally but ive been advised to try the new Saracen Ariel pro? Thank you for the vids 😊

[@andrextr]

Thoses bikes are not very progressive, indeed they are close to linear... Cube's suspension is very neutral to braking forces (IC is very far away in this design). Saracen is a single-pivot, so the anti-rise is much higher (around 90%)... If you intend to do some aggressive riding with drops and jumps, I would suggest a more progressive bike... If it's for riding over medium sized bumps, they are good :)

[@NiallJones1986]

+andrextr thank you for the reply buddy!!! Basically im after an all round bike for both climbing and the rough stuff, ive got my 29er for cross country but need a good sturdy setup to hit some jumps and rough trails. Any advice from you would be hugely appreciated! Thanks once again brother

[@andrextr]

Uzzi, Capra, Nomad, Strive... ordered by progressivity amount. All of them have good pedaling and good progressivity (Uzzi is a beast!)

[@NiallJones1986]

+andrextr i tried to order a Capra Xl but theyre out of stock! love the capra, although i was told its not great for climbing hills lol

[@NiallJones1986]

+andrextr ps if it makes a difference im 6ft 2 and 120kg bodyweight

[@monsterbikra9078]

What about an analysis of a gt bike? they have a variable bb positioning to reduce kickback. Could be quite interesting...

[@andrextr]

Hi. GT Force for instance has a very rearward axle path for an Enduro bike and it also has a high anti-rise (brake-squat) value (both are due to the high position of the main pivot). GT Force is also linear (or slightly regressive). Regarding the anti-squat the Linkage Software cannot analyse it since the BB is part of the unsprung mass and it moves, therefore the classical method of the anti-squat calculation is not valid here. It requires another method. But you are right, since the BB moves, the pedal kickback is lower for such an high pivot bike. Bye

[@monsterbikra9078]

and what about the M-Link by breezer?

[@andrextr]

M-link is a mix between FSR and VPP (the pivot in the chainstay is on the middle). It won't produce anything too special, it's just another design (with some differentiation, IMO due to marketing proposes). In the particular design of breezer bikes, the anti-squat is good, the braking is OK (not so good as some FSR designs, but similar to most VPP-like designs), and the leverage ratio is almost linear. Bye

[@geoschacht]

you are right-sorry about the error on my part

[@andrextr]

no problem man, I also make mistakes. Bye :)

[@lorenzluck7625]

Do Knolly Podium VS Tr 500 pls!!!! thanks dude awesome videos

[@pete6891]

hi andre i ride kingdom hex titanium full suspension bike. since theres not many of ti bikes on the market, would be great if you could analyze one. love your videos, greetings from Ireland. Pete.

[@andrextr]

Hi. I analysed that bike for the 200x57 shock (145mm travel). Average anti-squat at SAG of 120% for a 32T chainring, anti-rise 80%, progressivity 25%. Overall, it has good kinematics for a trail/AM bike. Bye :)

[@SneakyB]

can you do an analysis of GT force?

[@andrextr]

Hi. GT Force has a very rearward axle path for an Enduro bike and it also has a high anti-rise (brake-squat) value (both are due to the high position of the main pivot). Force is also linear (or slightly regressive). Regarding the anti-squat I cannot analyse it since the BB is part of the unsprung mass and it moves, therefore the classical method of the anti-squat calculation is not valid here. It requires another method. Bye

[@christianga2798]

Hi andrextr nice video!, i have a question about gt force,particulary about suspension system, the bottom bracket is on the chainstay,yes it can moves, but is not on the front triangle so i think it is not under the influence of the shock(right?!). the question: is the rider protected from the force of the trail (jumps, drops...) or is less protected rather than with another bike??

[@SneakyB]

I ride a GT Sensor that uses the same suspension design. You barely notice the BB moving when riding on the trail. It's only when you concentrate hard only on your pedals that you notice it moving.

[@Moi1689]

can u do a DB mission pro review

[@andrextr]

Yes, I can give a better look afterwards, but from looking at the picture of the bike, I can tell you that's a swingarm 4-bar suspension, and therefore the anti-rise is around 90%, and since the main pivot is slightly bellow the top of the chainring, it should have an average anti-squat around 70% (more or less). Not sure about progressivity (need to run the simulation). Bye

[@basticf]

Kona process134?

[@EdRochon]

Is the Kona Process 134 similar to the Process 153?

[@mikedicke5505]

Chestnut007isme I would also like to know, I have a 2016 DL model and if seems fine to me. Cheers from NY!

[@EdRochon]

Nice! I have a 2015 base model. I tend to think our frames perform pretty similar to the 153 since mine climbs way better with the rear shock locked out.

[@rpiian]

I also have this question (and a ‘16 134!). They are very similar in design so I would expect the numbers to be similar. For instance the main pivot & linkages are located similarly, and both bikes are 27.5 wheel size (shouldn’t be radically different). I would also be curious about the new (G2)153 with the Beamer rear suspension redesign. Supposedly that added more progressivity. I test rode the AL/DL and I believe it. It’s more firm off the top and feels bottomless in big hits.

[@geoschacht]

You need to do your homework - the AM v4 has the rear brake mounted on the chainstay - no brake jack, the process has the rear brake mounted on the seat stay - brake jack

[@andrextr]

+geoschacht Thats not true, they both have the brake and the wheel on chainstay. Bye