Comment Responses: Why Doesn’t Hollywood Cast Asian Actors?

[@therisingtithes]

Mike is right re: using ~statistics~ to argue that representation in film is equivalent to national data because we still have to consider screen time and such, but I wished he'd include just one other thing: What always gets me about the 'but the percentage of actors of a certain identity in top grossing films is proportional to the percentage of individuals of that identity in America' argument is that 'top grossing films' aren't all films. The example that IamLeggings cites draws data from the top 100 films of each year from '07 to '14, for a total of 700. Hollywood produces an average of *600 movies a year*. The insistence, therefore, that we've gotten to the diversity plateau because the number of Asian-American actors, for instance, in movies that make mad money is equivalent to the number of Asian-Americans on census data falls flat, to me, because white American actors and characters are afforded the luxury of appearing more *for the year*. That is, if you take into account all of Hollywood's productions, including movies that don't gross well (or garner critical acclaim or industry accolades, if one wished to switch lanes), then whiteness still outnumbers any diversity in Hollywood for the year. That's still noteworthy - for one, it's another piece of the puzzle of what kinds of genres/styles are available for marginalized people; and for another, it speaks to the quality of their representation itself and the limits of roles available for marginalized people in movies aiming for blockbuster acclaim (to shift to another media erasure space: how many Muslim-American actors do you think get roles in blockbuster movies that are deliberately not about war or terrorism in any way, even tangentially?). Interrogating this deeply and with more nuance than 'out of a hundred bankable movies there is the same percentage of marginalized people in credits as there are in the USA' requires thinking about this.

[@Greenkrieg]

I don't get why hollywood has such a problem with casting non-whites in leading roles. I'm white and I'd happily watch movies/shows with non-white stars. There are some amazing asian actors and I'd love to watch movies with them as leads. Immigrants and people of non-european descent are a huge part of america and they should be equally represented in our media.

[@jennakhrysavek8443]

The problem that the Hollywood studios have is that, with a few notable exceptions, the movies made with "non-white" leads do not make anywhere near as much money as the movies that have white leads. As much as we like to consider film to be an art form, Hollywood is out to make money. Pull up google, and look at the top grossing films of the last 10 years (domestic). How many of them had a diverse main cast? Hollywood makes what they think will sell. If people want to see more diversity, then we need to put our money where our mouths are.

[@darkuser9992]

except there's now a trend of "white-washed" movies bombing at the box office....Going back to the original interview, i agree that these go-between productions are not going anywhere. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, many argue was not typical, but i do in fact consider stylistically Chinese throughout. Movies like Ghost in the Shell, The Great Wall not to mention abominations like Dragon Ball Evolution and Last Airbender just tanked and viewers were left not knowing what to make of them!

[@jonsjoblom7033]

Universal rights are an important liberal value. The idea is that everyone has the same rights regardless of race, gender, or any other arbitary attribute. We don't want certain groups getting special rights over other groups. People are more then their skin color and racial background. We want to view people as people, not just representatives of different demographics.

[@jcdenton1635]

2:40 The girl's comment though. "To those of you who aren't Asian, you guys probably don't understand how it felt when KZbin came into existence." That hit hard. As an Asian American (and not an Asian from Asia), KZbin was proof to me that Asians could be every bit as funny, sexy, creative, athletic, and immersed in music and the arts as any other race. Before KZbin, I _truly_ believed the reason why Asians never appeared on TV and music is because we somehow lacked talent or were too focused on academics and "real" careers. KZbin made me realize that many Asian Americans had been yearning to express ourselves all along, but no one ever gave us the opportunity. Even as an Asian American, KZbin profoundly changed my own perceptions on other Asian Americans.

[@cainfft008]

Master of None has a great episode where they discuss the issues surrounding racial stereotypes in Asian roles. It definitely helped me understand that this is an actual issue that affect real people, not just some theoretical discussion about if a person's skin color should be considered when they audition for a role.

[@MrKool951]

Did Ghost in the Shell really flop because of the controversy? I feel like the general population wasn't even aware of it, let alone invested in it. As someone who has never had any previous knowledge or experience with Ghost in the Shell, it was a fairly mediocre movie to me. Then I hear actual Ghost in the Shell fans did not care for it either. So did it fail because a white woman was the star of a movie based on an Asian property? Or was it just a property that was a little too far out there for western audiences and didn't even cater to its established fan base? I feel like it tried to bank on everyone and got no one as a result. Anyways, love your videos Mike. I know this whole area of discussion is a difficult conversation to have, let alone have it go smoothly without stepping on any toes. Looking forward to future work.

[@krombopulos_michael]

Yeah I mean it was by all accounts just not that good a movie in general. I don't think there's usually any one reason why a movie did badly, but maybe some negative press from the movie media about it meant it wasn't getting promoted like it otherwise would.

[@MakiPcr]

Ghost in the Shell failed on its own merits, but the Controversy didn't help. Movies that are meh, but have diverse casting, get some positive buzz because of that.

[@TheHman124]

yeah, there's marketing and the cut the theaters get that would've required GITS to make more to be profitable

[@StitchWitch3]

I enjoy these comment response videos and the fact that this channel starts such interesting conversations like the ones the comment response videos feature, but I feel like I have to rewatch the original video before I can watch the comment response.

[@firestorm26621]

Tom Cruise was not The Last Samurai.... Ken Watanabe was. That movie largely avoids the "white guy does a culture better than its own people" trope, by making him largely an observer to the fall of the last of the samurai. Though, sure, it might be considered problematic that a film exploring the end of the samurai is delivered through the lens of a white dude.

[@HybrydaArt]

it might be problematic for some, but getting white dude (or black dude, just not asian dude) the audience knows that he is outsider, and we can have things explained to us through him. it's neat trick in writing, and using diff ethnicity makes it more clear for an audience in visual media and we don't have to establish it before (have like 3 years in movie school and ugh writing is hard and audience is dumb)

[@SuzakuX]

He was also based (loosely) on a real person (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Brunet). The film is very much about the Westernization of Japan and, in particular, the Japanese military. That being, I think the biggest "problem" with The Last Samurai is actually the one-sided romanticization of samurai culture, a culture whereby the wealthy hired what were essentially armed thugs to violently oppress the working class. In most Japanese stories I've read, samurai are actually depicted as villains while the heroes are ronin or kenshi -- masterless samurai and warriors, often disgraced or wielding swords illegally, who protect the disenfranchised from their samurai overlords. There are many who would argue that the Satsuma Rebellion wasn't the last gasp of a noble warrior class, but rather a failed bid by the samurai to hang on to their power and privileges.

[@EgadsNo]

" a culture whereby the wealthy hired what were essentially armed thugs to violently oppress the working class. In most Japanese stories I've read,..." Nobody writes stories of the ordinary, and the public were allowed to arm themselves and wear armor, they just could not carry a katana but most samurai did not fight with katana anyway or edged weapons for that matter. It was more symbol of authority and ritual purpose, and if they were a symbol of authority for a vicious warlord you cannot put much faith they will be honorable but largely that was not the case. Pikes, cudgels, hammers were all in wide use throughout the age of the samurai. A good story has a antognist that is perceived to be dangerous, a dishonorable samurai most certainly meets that criteria so of course that will be featured among many stories.

[@HoraceGoodspeed]

"a culture whereby the wealthy hired what were essentially armed thugs to violently oppress the working class. In most Japanese stories I've read, samurai are actually depicted as villains while the heroes are ronin or kenshi" Well that's a one-sided romanticization of the other side. The actual samurai were somewhere in between these two extremes, or probably more accurately, both extremes simultaneously.

[@mrkandle913]

HoraceGoodspeed Actually No the samurai were as*holes, there "Honer" only extended to how loyal they were to there Lord's, they would and had killed there families if there Lord requested it just so the samurai could prove there loyalty​ to there Lord's.

[@MarcelWilsonLynch]

I have so much respect for this video tackling the issue of diversity in western media. It's an issue that's been going on for far too long and we need to take a stand so that change can happen. It's ridiculous that a character made my japanese scientists with a japanese name could even be considered white and that people are actually arguing that fact. When in actuality not all asians have small eyes and look the same. I don't know what other stereotype people put on anime characters to insinuate that they're not asian but then again I don't stereotype people. I also find it highly insulting that scarlett shrugged off the comments about her taking the role of an asian character as people judging the movie before even seeing it and not addressing the issue that by the end of the movie she finds out that she's actually an asian woman put into the "shell" of a white woman? I really wish people would stop ignoring the blatant racism going on in Hollywood

[@dave5194]

To the point of Wong being Tibetian: nope, his parents were from Hong Kong and he was born in the UK. What I meant was, I do really want to have an Asian character as a lead in a Hollywood movie that isn't a kung fu movie (It's not that much to ask for right?) but I don't want the CCP's influence in Hollywood. To further expand on examples: WWZ, they completely changed the plot of the movie since in the book, patient 0 came from the illegal organ black market in china... you can see why. Despite the change, it starred Brad Pitt, who was in the movie 12 years in Tibet and banned from China, so it didn't work. In Iron Man 3, the movie was co produced with chinese shareholders with representatives on the sets themselves to guarantee it would get into china. Transformers Age of Extinction was basically a patriotic film for China.

[@saoirsecameron]

Who decides what is fair and makes sense when it comes to representation? Historically it has been white people. I think that is part of the problem, that discussions of what is fair or make sense have been used as a sort of gate keeping function to keep marginalized groups under represented. To have an honest discussion about what representation means and how to do it, the people who have historically not been represented need to be centered, not just in a "let's hear them out" sort of way but a "how can we relinquish power and give you agency over your own representation" sort of way.

[@RossLlewallyn]

The one limitation this episode (which I really appreciated) had was not acknowledging the complexity and challenges of making these changes. I don't think there are good excuses for the state we're in regarding whitewashing, but I don't know if the actual path out of it is as simple as possibly characterized in the video. For example, there's a real challenge to the need for American (white) stars to prop up other films: it allows other cultures to create something that might impact a wider audience (good) but maintains in some form this existing dominance of white main characters (bad). I'd be interested in some straight-up dollars-and-cents discussion about what makes transitioning out of this so hard. It's certainly wrapped up in a semi-related topic of "star power" in general (cue Mario Kart music).

[@karelfinn2343]

I think you've made a great number of good points here. That said, if I may quickly speak in defense of The Last Samurai (which I think is an OK if not spectacular movie) people really seem to have missed the fact that the title doesn't refer to Tom Cruise's character. The title refers to an actual Japanese guy.

[@uunnoov]

You can ask manga artist IN Japan and many say that anime characters aren’t specifically asian. Like the ghost in the shell. The artist was asked before hand what race the main character should be played as, and he didn’t mind it if she were to be white or asian. because he knows it’s difficult to find someone who looks specifically like that manga character especially in Japan (very high expectations). It’s just more common to see white people who look “animeish”

[@DoctorLazers]

I was always confused as to the Tibetan Ancient One excuse. They moved the temple to Nepal, so why not make him an old Nepali man?

[@lyadmilo]

Also (and this is another representative issue as well) but there are a lot more shows set in new york than Nebraska. And PoC are the majority of new Yorkers. And I think LA is close to 50 50.

[@Caseyuptobat]

"Anime characters are Japanese because anime is a cultural artifact of Japan" That's not how that works. Characters are the nationality they are written as. There isn't any further argument to be had there. If your character's name is Raku Ichijo and he attends a Japanese public school then sure, that character is obviously Japanese. But what about Edward Elric from the fictional nation of Amerstris? Or better yet, what about the anthropomorphic personification of WWII-era Germany? Is he Japanese, just because he's an anime character?

[@MiseFreisin]

Charles Gorillionaire While one might argue that they're not exactly Japanese, they still essentially speak Japanese, and often behave in a manner that could be described as Japanese, more so than anything else, anyway. I think it's interesting to consider them as something other. Having said that, being written by Japanese people for Japanese people, it's easy to see why one might default to describing them as Japanese, despite the intention of the creator.

[@KitaKawashi]

I disagree. Let's just use one character from Charles examples. One of the examples Charles used was a character from Hetalia, the personification of Nazi Germany. First, the characters in Hetalia speak Japanese because the audience understands Japanese. It's the same reason why people tend to speak mostly English in movies released in the United States. Most people don't like to read subtitles. So, the argument that because a character like Nazi Germany speaks Japanese and therefore he is Japanese is disingenuous at best. Second, clarify by what you mean "...often behave in a manner that could be described as Japanese..." ? This point confuses me, even if we don't use the Hetalia example. This is a bit of a dangerous territory, don't you think? "Acting Japanese" is kinda skidding into stereotypes about another culture. Third, I do not buy the author is dead argument. Japanese people (and audiences/ readers of anime/manga abroad) do care deeply about what universe a Mangaka has created. For example, let's examine Attack on Titan (Shingeki no Kyojin, hereafter AoT). There is an entire plot point in this series where one of the characters, Mikasa Ackerman, is the ONLY Asian character. (I am up to date with the manga, and for our purposes, I see no reason in giving any spoilers.) Every other character is of German ancestry, such as Eren Jeager and Armin Arlet. German culture, German history, and German philosophy (particularly that Nazi philosophy) are deeply ingrained in the show. In fact, AoT would not be AoT without its German influence. (Hell, the war cry for the soldiers is even in German.) The audience is not stupid. It is known that the show exists in a Germanic society. My point is that Japanese Mangaka are perfectly capable of writing about different places/worlds and that Japanese readers are perfectly capable of relating to/investing in those worlds and that those worlds do not need to be Japanese for the Japanese audience to car about. I think Japanese audiences care about the world a Mangaka creates (hence why the read said manga or watch said anime). I do think it is a big assumption that Japanese audiences automatically disregard what the Mangaka has written. If a manga/anime is set in Japan, then it is set in Japan. If it is set in a German society where there is only one Asian character, such as AoT, then it is precisely that. Fourth, I want to make it clear, I think that diversity is important. I think that whitewashing is a serious problem. But I think this argument is poorly constructed. Particularly the language bit.

[@MiseFreisin]

Let's look at Germany, the Hetalia character then. I don't think you really believed that I was arguing that just because he speaks Japanese, that makes him Japanese. I was a little more careful than that in wording my comment, I think. However, would you really describe him as a German? Straight up, with no further explanation? I really think there's more to it than that. Especially given the way characters act in Hetalia. But let's not get into stereotypes about other cultures, right? Joking aside, I want to reiterate and make clear my point. I do think it's worth taking the creator and intended audience into consideration when looking at the nationalities of anime characters. Obviously, I can write whatever kind of character I want, from my perspective, for whomever I want to address and by simply including: "Oh, by the way, her parents were Japanese so she is Japanese.", I can define their nationality (also gender, etc.). But, in cases where it's not explicitly stated (and perhaps even in some where it is), I do believe we ought to consider both the author and audience as factors, if we're going to speculate. What I mean is, I think "Is Germany from Hetalia really German?" would make for a perfectly viable future episode of Idea Channel. Also you'll note I used the phrase "easy to see why one might" to distance myself from the position of 'painting all anime characters Japanese', so to speak. Anyway, I really wish anime hadn't been brought up in this way in relation to this topic, though I guess, given Ghost in the Shell's being an example made it almost inevitable. I think it's difficult enough to have a good discussion about whitewashing without dragging anime into it and making treacherous ground even swampier.

[@aaronmurphy4731]

I think that Ghost in the Shell raised some interesting questions about race all together. Is Kusanagi Japanese or white...well both, and niether all at once. She suffers from a type of diaspora common amongst folk who are biracial, but pass as a certain race based on appearance.

[@gblatt8472]

I've enjoyed and appreciated the conversation surrounding Ghost in the Shell and other recent films, but as a Latino I ask where were all of you a few years ago when Argo won Best Picture with Ben Affleck playing an real life person of Mexican decent?! You were kinda there for the White Savior nonsense of Elysium, but more to note it than to boycott or act. As much as there is Asian erasure and erasure of middle eastern cultures in Hollywood, there is also massive Latino erasure where we barely get represented at all, even as stereotypes. Yet the subjugation and erasure of American Latinos in film doesn't inspire the same kind of passion or outrage from the internet's civil rights wing. As someone who tirelessly sticks up for other cultures being represented, it hurts me to be so uncertain if the same community would be there for my people and culture.

[@reallyeasy100]

Keeping the comment response video on a friday is a huge improvement over releasing both 'main video' and 'response video' on the same day. It can be a little overwhelming getting both videos in one day, but having them spread out over the week... much more manageable in terms of digesting the ideas.

[@carolhawk3911]

Have you and the other gentleman on this vidoe seen Fresh off the boat? What do you think of it? Would you say it is a more positive representation of Asian American roles in TV media?

[@toodlesX14]

Tricky tricky subject. Even when it feels like we're being forward thinking with the discussions it comes across as insensitive in other ways. But I think the really important takeaway is that everyone here agrees there is a problem with the way casting is currently handled, and that we're talking about it.

[@EndlessPlane]

In regards to the discussion on 'blind auditions'. One could view as a necessary evil to 'get us from here to there' so to speak. Over time, as it becomes seated deeply in everyone's brain that gender is not a valuable criteria in selecting musicians. Demonstrated by people of all genders filling all roles. Then perhaps it could be phased out. I suspect there are bunch of other biases that this technique avoids beyond just gender based ones. I would guess that taller or more attractive musicians get picked at a slightly higher rate than their raw musical ability would justify. The way I see it, we should use whatever tools that are available to circumvent our subconscious biases. I don't think shaming or blaming people for subconscious biases is particularly helpful or constructive. Especially as the research surrounding implicit biases is very much in flux right now. nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-tool-isnt-up-to-the-job.html >>> Given all this excitement, it might feel safe to assume that the IAT really does measure people’s propensity to commit real-world acts of implicit bias against marginalized groups, and that it does so in a dependable, clearly understood way. After all, the test is hosted by Harvard, endorsed and frequently written about by some of the top social psychologists and science journalists in the country, and is currently seen by many as the most sophisticated way to talk about the complicated, fraught subject of race in America. >>> Unfortunately, none of that is true. A pile of scholarly work, some of it published in top psychology journals and most of it ignored by the media, suggests that the IAT falls far short of the quality-control standards normally expected of psychological instruments.

[@Ghonosyphlaids]

Sad to see Mike so bothered by the sheer number of logical fallacies being committed in the comments section. It's hard to sift through all the faulty generalizations, cherry picking, inductive fallacies and even some false analogies. I think we had all come to expect better from the Idea Channel community, but I suppose it's the nature of the beast you unleash when you gain popularity on KZbin.

[@axelfrancisco798]

Good response my dude i feel this hard core. You should do a video on hispanic/latino erasure in media. Bane anyone? I will probably never be over that. Another conversation that could be interesting is the whitewashing and colourism in a lot of media. Pale hispanic, middle eastern and asian individuals getting more roles than darker skinned people. This is coming from me as a PALE latinx person, very rarely do we get to see dark skin unless its displayed as a joke or undesirable.

[@joshuaeadon1465]

Maybe you should cast the next marvel film or anime adaptation so you can cast Asian-Americans. Don't worry about who has best audition or who you think would fit the role the most, or which famous actor will bring in the most money. I take issue with the idea that these directors/writers are intentionally 'white washing' these roles which are apparently reserved for Asians (Kusanagi was not supposed to looks Asian in the original). I'm all for diversity in cast in fact I think its very important, however I don't think the writer/director/creator's work should be arbitrarily changed to suit what you or anyone else deems to be better simply because one character was white not Asian. I'm sure there are exceptions but these people are not racists who don't want to cast Asians/Asian-Americans because they don't like them or don't want diversity in their cast, they are making creative decisions which they believe will improve the work.

[@bobsobol]

I'm still sure there was a moment in one of the Manga, where a Chinese refugee couldn't tell, from her "shell", if Kuzenagi was Chinese or from the AE. (the American Empire) She had to _tell them_, she's actually from Japan. The problem with the U.S. DeathNote, wasn't so much the white Light, but the black L, when animé, manga and Japanese live-action made a massive point of his being pale to the extent of appearing anaemic or like a vampire, and that being a major aspect of his _character_. Light could have been black, but _not_ L!? Or L could have been black, but should have been, maybe late Michael Jackson pale for a black person. Which he was not portrayed as being, and may have been considered insulting or misunderstood if that was achieved through makeup.

[@ResoIveProductions]

Disappointed. It seems you cherry picked the (parts of) comments, which were easy to refute, while ignoring the more potent content that I saw in last video's comment section. Your entire "we should always think about race"-narrative seems to be riddled with hypocracy and double-think. I feel like you haven't really thought through much of what you said in the last 4 minutes. You bring up points or facts to support your opinion, which in a lot of cases aren't based on anything, they're just more opinions to support your opinions. Or you brush off parts of arguments for whatever reason. Laughing it off isn't an argument either. I expected more. These last two video's were anti-intellectual.

[@Linkman95]

I'm kinda upset you really didn't get at the meat of molasssd's comment, and kind of just picked off an easy argument about ghost in the shell in particular when that was kind of exactly their point. "Shouldn't EVERY movie be a chance to cast an asian-american? why aren't these critics boycotting the majority of hollywood films? In Guardians of the Galaxy, the protagonist is the son of an alien, so why did he have to be white? In France there are a lot of french-african people, so why in Beauty and the Beast Bella was cast as a white girl? why are all the people in The Circle white? Why are the majority of the Alien Covenant cast white? Why is the upcoming Blade Runner full of white people? and why aren't these critics boycotting these movies? My point is that diversity is necessary and important , but these critics aren't being consistent, and basically are blackmailing movies into an inorganic wrongly-conceived-multiculturalism dystopia." We should have more diversity in all things, but instead critics are targeting stuff like Iron Fist, and its kind of like, "Is not having all martial arts experts be asians really the hill you want to fight on, and not say, 'Hey look, there is absolutely no asians being cast in normal day to to day roles where we could easily have asians"

[@krombopulos_michael]

Linkman95 I couldn't agree more. I'd be happy to see more diversity in movies, but just pointing to things that are vaguely "Asian" (whether it's because of marital arts or because the original writer was Japanese) and saying that's where they should be putting Asians just seems like another way of pigeonholing actors into certain roles. Look at movies and TV shows that do it well. Inception cast Ken Watanabe or The Walking Dead carting Steve Yeun. They get to play normal people in normal roles, the kinds of things that normally just go to white people by default. That's a lot better than just forcing them into a box to play stock characters and tropes, where people in the west just continuously view them as foreign and "other". It's also worth remembering that Asia is extremely diverse and it's kind of wrong to simplistically lump them all together. If a character is supposed to be Japanese and you get a Philipino to play them, that seems almost worse than trying to get a white person to do it, because it's basically just saying that they're all the same and defined by physical features instead of their culture.

[@SenseiLeRoof]

"In Guardians of the Galaxy, the protagonist is the son of an alien, so why did he have to be white?" Um... because his _mother_ was white, maybe? That pesky genetics thing?

[@Linkman95]

Do you really not get how thats a really a weak argument? If I say why did the mom have to be white, are you just going to say "Because HER parents were white"?

[@SenseiLeRoof]

Was she white in the comic? That should end things right there.

[@bilaljones3635]

Linkman95 First off, here's the issue: When discussing whitewashing, Asian erasure, etc. We can't look at individual movies. We have to address the problem has endemic of the entire industry and focus our intentions more so on film executives and major studios, then on individual directors/writers. That's why if you look at Beauty and the Beast, you have to be mindful of the fact that they just had an incredibly successful animated to live action film that preceded it that had a diverse cast ( the jungle book) and it's already been reported that another movie is in the works that will have a diverse cast (lion king, albeit fully CGI). They also just had an amazing animated movie based in Polynesian folklore (Moana). Because of this, people can look pass Beauty and the Beast and not be mad at Disney and instead focus their issues on studios and film execs who continue to NEVER take a chance on diversity. The issue isn't the existence of all white cast, but the OVERALL lack of Asian representation. If for every all white movie there was an Asian cast equivalent or latino-american equivalent, or a black American equivalent, there would be no issues from me. Ideally, I would rather all movies be diverse but that's probably not feasible so a net balance is the best we can hope to accomplish. Also, the Alien Covenant cast is pretty diverse. Finally, getting mad at Iron Fist is less about the character being white and more so on the character being a white male imperialist power fantasy (scrawny white guy secretly is the greatest martial artist ever and must do battle against evil minorities while seducing Asian (and in the comics, black) women).

[@Sykdude]

I hate that argument that a white guy can't be the greatest martial artist in the world. That's like saying that a black man can't be the greatest baseball player in the world. I get that in many (but not all) martial arts there is a distinctly Asian philosophy, but at its roots it's a physical activity. Purely mechanical and responding to your opponents moves, anyone without disabilities can be good in martial arts.

[@aloysius_music]

The point is that it's a ludicrous trope. How many asian people vs white people practice martial arts from their youth onwards? If there were one or two films where this thing of a white person being the best martial artist were the case then sure that would be chill, but in Hollywood films the lead is invariably white, so the best martial artist in the world is always white. A similar example I could think of is something like basketball in the US. The majority of top players at any given time is or has been black, but Yao Ming was a great asian player. He was the exception to the wider rule. Now imagine if every single basketball film portrayed an Asian lead who was better at basketball than everyone else. It would just be a bit weird.

[@joshmiller9783]

It's actually these people being racist but trying to hide it. They want control over someone's business because they believe in a majority white country most fake tv, movies need a token person of another race to make them feel good.

[@lolwutyoumad]

The problem with the troupe is that the white guy is ALWAYS the best martial artist who earns his stripes by beating up as many Asian men as possible

[@LauraCrone]

Blind auditions, in addition to failing to address the underlying causes of discrimination, are functionally impossible for actors. In every field other than voice acting, the way an actor's face and body look are key to the way they will portray a role. Additionally, equal representation in orchestras is great and something we should totally be aiming for, but equal representation in film and television is a completely different issue, because those actors are not only fighting to dismantle the discrimination that keeps them from being cast in the types of roles usually played by cis white men (read: nearly every role that isn't built on the foundation of a race- or gender-based stereotype), but also for the ability to alter the perceptions of every person who sees that film or TV show and break down the race- and gender-based stereotypes deeply ingrained in their minds. The visibility of a female tuba player might peripherally help break down the idea that women are delicate and can't do typically masculine things, but when we're talking about film and television casting, visibility is the entire purpose.

[@jennakhrysavek8443]

At 8:19: you say that we should assume that any manga character is Asian, if they're written/drawn by an Asian creator. I find this, to use your word -disingenuous. Why would you assume that someone who is Asian would only write Asian characters? are black people only writing about other black people? Are white people only writing about other white people? I get that you feel strongly that we shouldn't change the color of a character when transcribing them from page to screen, and I agree to a point. Their race/gender/nationality shouldn't be changed on a whim or to make it more 'mass market friendly'. However, you can overreact in the opposite direction. You should not assume that just because an Asian writer/artist/company put out a manga that all of it's characters should be 'default Asian". Full Metal Alchemist, for one, is created by Japanese artists, and yet is set in a very German setting, with very German-looking characters. Some of the characters are visibly Oriental, but most of them are European, especially the main characters. If this was made into a live action adaptation, I would want Edward to be a short blonde Caucasian, not an Asian or other - because that would be true to the source material. However, for every character, I would foremost want someone who could ACT THE PART. It doesn't matter if you get a perfect match on every physical level, if the actor cannot act. I adored Tilda Swinton in Dr Strange. I thought she was wonderful in the part. I loathed Iron Fist, even tho the actor playing Danny was physically spot on, because he could not emote to save his life (apparently). (either that, or he just had the worst writers/directors in the universe). I think whitewashing is an issue in US film, but not anywhere near the monumental overwhelming alarming issue that people are making it out to be. With all of the race related issues going on in the US at the moment - film is quite honestly the least of our problems.

[@jonathanthompson4077]

For the most part they are the default race of the people that the piece was written for, ie Japanese. Exceptions are made of course for characters specifically said to be another ethnic group. That being said most people reading a "blank" character whose race is not mentioned will think that character is their race or the dominant race of their society at large unless noted. Since most anime and manga are made in Japan it stands to reason the intended readers think that most are Japanese unless noted.

[@mash5a]

Jdtcreates, If a character's race is not mentioned, I can't think of many people who ask "where is the author from, that character must be from there". To do that with "anime" / "manga" simply because the style is distinctively Japanese or the author is Japanese, is completely stupid. Where does this story take place, where does X character live, and what does X character look like? These are INFINITELY better questions to determine race than factors that are literally outside of the story. In fact, the key here is that it's 100% dependent on information provided by the story / art. Is that to say many Japanese manga / anime don't take place in Japan? No. Does that mean the author's own race dictates the race of his characters? Hell no.

[@bowen13]

It's gonna be funny if they make an American Attack on Titan and people complain when only Mikasa is played by an asian actress.

[@GrizzlyHansen]

There's no way Afro Samurai is black he wa swritten by an Asian he must be Asian.

[@heartslob]

people always try to use this as an example, but no one is going to care

[@fossforever512]

Also 11:20 are you really fixing to do an appeal to the band wagon? It doesn't matter what the majority thinks. It's up to the creator. They get to choose to whatever they want to do as art

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

If Asian roles are minor, points are divided. If they are negative portrayals of Asians, the points are then made negative.

[@ErisLietus]

Benedict Wong - while of Chinese desent ( Hong Kong). He is a British actor and was born in England

[@PavlockProducts]

I'd like to say that every Thursday I hate not seeing a comment response but every Friday I love seeing the comment response. My feelings are so contradictory :P

[@MAlanThomasII]

I understand anime characters to be generically Japanese when not otherwise stated in the same way that I understand a purple talking pony to be American and no-one to have naturally green hair anywhere.

[@jacquesstevens4920]

The Death Note movie is set in Seattle, the whole story is adapted for a western audience. It's not like they just cast a white guy as Light Yagam with the original story and setting. it would make less sense for Light to be a Japanese model student in the new setting. There was thought taken with this adaptation, they didn't just want to make a live action anime, they wanted to take a great story and change parts of it to fit a new audience.

[@JIYkp]

On the idea of demographics (the 5% stat), I think it is also interesting to look at the demographics of specific cities/states. The US is a large and diverse country, so dense metropolitan cities (ex. New York, Los Angeles) have much larger minority populations (>10% Asian), while central and southern states might have much less (

[@FlyToTheRain]

if the like bar is any indication of how difficult of a conversation this is, i'm really glad you guys went for it. i'm always at a bit of a loss on how people can get so up in arms when someone is like "i just want to see more people like myself represented positively"

[@mash5a]

The real issue with the original video was that it abridged the white washing issue way to much. The video only really tackles which movies did it and why it's not excusable with very light strokes. All this with no mention of how the western film industry is up it's own ass, commonly incompetent, playing as safe as possible by milking franchises to death, and *incredibly nepotistic*. That last one applies for every job involved with film too, you either have family in the industry or you know people in the industry, then you get your start. That compounded with whites basically being the only ones working when the film industry first started, means that being from somewhere else (Usually represented by race, but also applies to literally anyone living where films aren't made) instantly makes it harder to get a job *at any position*. Does this excuse white washing? Hell no, especially with all of the ethnic typecasting bullshit that happens. What it does mean, however, is that the industry is predominantly white by default. Which then makes the movies mostly involve white people as well. Those that aren't are outliers or are locals of the areas in which movies are made. Finally, I would like to point out that this also comes down to flat out racism, the kind which no one is immune to, especially when you and all your film friends are white / the same. Of course, that one should be plainly clear. Not like it matters, since the video managed to avoid discussing issues concerning that, just like it avoided discussing industry politics and racial demographics. Which brings me to my ultimate point, my 4 paragraph KZbin comment *barely* scratched the surface on any of these important subjects and yet, the video ignores it entirely. They don't actually discuss White Washing with the resources it deserves, resulting in a half assed video can barely say "whitewashing is bad".

[@dejota1136]

Your diversity for diversity sake is pretty reductionist. Especially when your reasoning is "oh it's neat to see brown people on screen".

[@joealias2594]

The problem with the "blind audition" and "colorblindness" proposal is that you don't know what you don't know. The proposal is that if we just forgot all our racial biases and stereotypes, society would be fair. However, in practice, you can't "forget" about race just because you want to. In practical terms, "forgetting" about race is really actually "not thinking about race." The problem is you can and do behave in a way that is informed by race even if you are not consciously thinking about race. Basically, the blind audition is a good thing, but it is particularly a good thing if everyone in the room knows the reason why the curtain is there is because it prevents gender bias. If everyone forgot why it is there, then someday someone might think "oh hey why even have this curtain?" and then we're back where we started. Before the curtain, it didn't occur to anyone that they were being unfair. I assume most interviewers thought that if a woman came in with the strength to play tuba, they would accept her; they probably just thought that was not likely to happen. They didn't realize that their preconception literally affected their actual perception.

[@RockiesCanada]

Here's the thing, even though I am bisexual I really dislike gay characters in media because they're not really put in with the purpose of advancing the story, but because they are put in for the sake of them being gay with many of them including stereotypes (which may or may not be negative). It's just pandering and tokenism and it makes me think that people like me can't be portrayed in movies based on the merit of the relationship, but because of the bankability of including a token gay couple.

[@jennakhrysavek8443]

+machcharge I agree. In the 80s, there was the 'wise old asian man'. In the 90s it was the 'wise old black man.' Now it's the 'wise/witty gay man'. They're all deus ex machina "characters" that exist specifically to 'magic' the main character along the plot points. If they want to put a lgbt person into a story, it should be organically - not as a magical plot device. Or as a 'token to diversity'. Or a caricature or stereotype.

[@XSpImmaLion]

Thanks for waking through this particular minefield Mike. xD

[@cloudkitt]

Tom Cruise wasn't the damn last samurai in the Last Samurai. I praised the main video for not going for that line and then it shows up here anyway. Katsumoto (and his group) were the last samurai, Algren is back in his US Army uniform by the end of the movie. I am aware that the poster did not make this clear, but take that up with the marketing guys. The movie never left me with the impression that Algren was the last samurai even before I knew about this particular issue. He's the fish-out-of-water device.

[@lucasbune]

High god, these comments are filled with strawmen. I had hoped the Idea Channel viewerbase in general would be better at avoiding these pitfalls of discussion. Taking a stance against an exagerated version of an opponents views and coming out on top, does not make you any more right.

[@Maawaa]

I think Mike's point at 7:01 onward is super unreasonable that we are to assume that "the Western audience, broadly considered, [understands] characters in anime and manga to be Asian. Regardless of the fact of whether or not they have stereotypical features from any number of Asian countries, I think that it's fair to say that most people in the west understand those characters to be of Asian origin". The problem with this can be pretty well displayed with the original Yu-Gi-Oh. Like, Bandit Keith, even if you are watching in Japanese and don't speak the language, is clearly American. He wears the American flag as a bandanna. It'd be crazy to portray him as anything else in a live-action adaptation. Where that's clear-cut, what can you say of Joey Wheeler? In the english dub, he has a Brooklyn accent - so what should his nationality be? Again, for a western adaptation, it'd be strange if he lost that aspect - because that's the only way that western audiences know his character. Alright, well then what about Yugi Moto? That's a clearly Japanese name. But of course he has the spirit of Yami Yugi, you know the PHARAOH, in him. Who plays the Pharaoh? And given their visual similarity, what about Yugi?

[@waromid]

just a small observation: usually in every comment response, you find at least one comment that shows an opposite view, and agree with it as being fair and thought provoking, but in this one you didn't. I wonder if this is says something about your personal position, or people's comments.

[@nihiliprism]

I honestly wonder every time I watch an anime if they mean for the characters to be any particular ethnicity, I think that assumption that general audiences just accept they are Japanese may be wrong. But then, I haven't had that conversation with any one else so it may be a rare thought. I usually end up thinking they imitate American movies by having diverse characters despite setting or story. Somewhat ironically.

[@yifeigong135]

As much as I hate all the excessive censorship in China, I really don't think casting a Tibet character would get the movie banned. The Mummy 3 featured a lot of Tibetan characters and it did come out in theaters.

[@RilianSharp]

Don't get rid of the curtain! The blind audition eliminates personal bias of the judges.

[@ranjacc]

I think that the blind audition thing is still necessary. Maybe you're not addressing the underlying cause, but I think that's an unreasonable goal. We all have biases and although we might try to be objective, we're not going to be in the end. I forget the test, I believe it was developed by Harvard, but even people who try to take the approach you take, to openly talk and try to fix issues in society, in the end weren't fair. I think my hypothesis is that a blind approach would eventually lead to a more... I guess "accurate" society, where minorities and women are judged on their skill and witnesses to the change would slowly but surely "overwrite" these biases while children wouldn't develop them at all. Your approach, that actively talking about it, has a place in recognising the problem in the first place, but it's not the solution.

[@jaymin1990artist]

I do think the "blindness argument" would not working for acting because it's not just an auditive it is visual as well

[@darkuser9992]

I think one reason the diversity issue sometimes rears its head for me as an Asian guy is that the problem is less a diversity issue and more an Asian one. For one, the issue seems to have all but evaporated for African Americans. They now have the Will Smiths, Denzel Washingtons, Chiwetel Ejiofors etc. For those into superhero movies, which have become a staple of everyday popular culture, you have Black Panther, Falcon...they are not main characters, but they are present and they have a presence...Asian are not afforded the same opportunity!

[@glyphpannel]

Me, this entire video: U TELL EM MIKE

[@minhsmindtv]

Need to update this one now that Crazy Rich Asians is out.

[@secretbootlegs]

As an Asian American, whether I agree or disagree, I will at least say: thank you for this discussion.

[@SimonDragonheart]

the biggest argument i have heard for light to be cast as white in the upcoming Netflix movie is that light is and has always been a child of privilege. HE is a top honor student, attractive, and the son of a police inspector; someone that can fly under the radar of society when looking for a mass killer and could get away with anything. Since Netflix's movie is based in america, the image of that child of privilege shifts to Caucasian, rather than Japanese.

[@rowtow13]

I will never get behind the idea that Iron Fist should be an even more generic karate man.

[@akmalsy159]

About the Death Note adaptation, if you want to change the setting to take place in USA, I don't see a problem with hiring a white actor, to play Light Yagami, IF he really is the best actor to portray that character. For anyone demanding Death Note to be 100% faithful to the source material, I recommend you watch the already-existing live-action Death Note adaptation by Japan.

[@GREENSP0RE]

Here's a question, would you cast Aramin from attack on titan as Asian? What if there were no Asian's with blonde hair and blue eyes auditioning for the position? Should the portrayal of the original character matter, and how much? What if the entire rest of the cast was Asian? Just wondering what people are thinking..

[@RunicSSB]

Again, the problem is not that people don't think the characters are Asian, it's that they don't look Asian. Look at the Japanese Death Note and Gantz live-action films. Those are characters who are clearly meant to be Japanese and are drawn in a relatively realistic style, yet the Japanese actors still look absolutely nothing like the characters they're playing (except for L, who is white). And, yes, it is important that actors in adaptations look like the characters they're playing. If you're taking something from another medium and adapting it, then you're dealing with a franchise that already has an established fanbase who are attatched to the characters. When you cast someone who looks absolutely nothing like that character, it will shatter the suspension of disbelief of those fans. Think about a Superman movie where the guy playing him was a foot shorter and 100 lbs lighter than Superman, had completely different facial features than Superman, and had hair too short to make his signature coif. You wouldn't see him as Superman. Even if he could act circles around everyone else in the film, you'd still be completely taken out of the movie whenever he shows up, and you'd just see him as some guy in a costume. That's what it feels like to watch anime movies with Japanese actors.

[@chillsahoy2640]

It's an odd situation when I see more of Asian culture and aesthetics from pornographic artists (Mentaiko, Takeshi Matsu, Draw2 and Takakku Nozomu) than from "standard" authors of manga for general audiences (Hiromu Arakawa, Masamune Shirow, Sakae Esuno). The former artists create characters who live in an Asian (mostly Japanese) culture, they face the same struggles that Asian people do, and have physical traits that are associated with Asians, both stereotypically and, in some cases, realistically. The latter artists tend to portray generally white European characters who live in a superficially Asian/Japanese location but are actually almost exclusively western in their themes. As much as I love Fullmetal Alchemist, it did not satisfy my desire to see diversity, and I unfortunately sometimes refer to it as "fantasy Europeans who happen to speak Japanese, and do alchemy".

[@Elunayme]

Concerning the interpretation of Anime characters: We human apes understand stories by projecting ourselves into the roles of the protagonist. If an anime character doesn't necessarily look Japanese and hunts monsters in a fantasy world, then it's just normal to have some amount of different understanding to what the author probably intended.

[@trippingpug5513]

On that last bit about being blind to differences... I would say that, in a way, that's exactly what we need. Not so much in that we don't see or acknowledge the differences people have, but instead accept that they aren't important in the long run to the job at hand. There are of course jobs or rolls that will only work for a certain kind of person (like a female actress playing a female roll, for instance), but for the most part your skin color, sex, gender, nationality, etc. shouldn't matter much if you are just the best person for the job. So basically, we need to stop saying 'Oh look, the black guy got the roll, good for the blacks,' and start saying 'Good, the best actor got the roll.' Him being black does matter, but not in the context of the job he is doing. And of course, this would go for the casting of the rolls as well. Just hire the best person, not focus on if they're white or Asian, gay or straight, etc. Do you see what I mean?

[@SloppyLarry]

Not all Anime characters are Asian. Perfect example would be Steam Boy and some fall into the grey like Goku Alien, The Major mostly synthetic and depicted differently depending on the series. In fact its not clear if she was even originally female.

[@ericspace121]

Cronedog's comment does address the underlying causes. The issue is assuming the talents of someone based on their biology, and not on merit. By only seeing the work someone is able to achieve and not the resources someone has to achieve the work, the one who is able to produce the best work gets the job. This is taking variables out of an equation to reduce bias, and this is exactly why we should not take someone's skin color into account during the hiring process. Putting emphasis on this variable yields bias, while seeing these variables as insignificant results in less bias. I am strongly for merit being the primary goal of the hiring process. The employer should hire based on what the worker can bring to the table. Gender, heritage and race are irrelevant, and I fail to see how removing this from the equation deprives humanity in any way from the employee. The goal of work is to produce results, not to put your identity on a pedestal. There are many times for people to celebrate their identity, but at the end of the day work is to support yourself, and this is how we reward the excellence of what people can achieve, not what their ancestors have.

[@YoJesusMorales]

For some reason I ended watching the pronunciation guide of manga and a clip of this was on it but it wasn't complete.

[@emilyniedbala]

I don’t really understand he musical argument that they put men on brass instruments because they have higher lung capacities, because actually, the flute takes just as much air to play as a tuba does and that’s a classically female instrument. I don’t think the bias comes from anything that rooted in facts, it’s just about gender stereotyping to higher and lower instruments and woodwinds vs brass

[@seeranos]

The idea that Western audiences would see Anime characters as non Asian, and that Anime characters are fundamentally designed to look non-Asian isn't entirely absurd, because of there is a force of westernization and Western fetishism in Japan and South Korea. As you said, this gives Western producers an easy way out to "go with the flow" with Japan's self-imposed erasure. To go with that flow once you've recognized it's direction is to accept Western fetishism as leading somewhere you're okay with. Otherwise, we have to produce a force counter to the original intent of the work, and point things toward a more Noble goal.

[@Densoro]

I get worked up about the 'colorblind' argument because I'm literally colorblind and I'm tired of people trying to turn it into an excuse xD Point 1) If one accepts that any race has ever been treated unfairly, and 2) doesn't believe that government is perfect, and can perfectly annihilate problems through legislation...the result is that you have to acknowledge our treatment of racial minorities is still imperfect. Given that, 'colorblindness' is like 'victim-blindness.' Imagine a court trial where the judge kept confusing the accuser with the accused. It would obfuscate the issue. 'Did he stab you? Or did you stab him? Why does anybody have to stab anybody? We're all one people.' That's nice but we have a stabber on the loose and a victim who has hospital bills to pay, so can we maybe be clear about who hurt who here?

[@sheren_b]

Mad respect to you Mike for handling the onslaught as well as you could, i always appreciate idea channel for maintaining civil, logical ,and informative conversation. You're not simply smart but understanding and approach explanations in the nicest way possible. Also shoutout to Kevin too! love the gudatama phone case btw

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

A blind audition only works as a minor fix. Your goal should be to try and make them less required.

[@sadrobotman3656]

diversity for diversity's sake is bad because it feels like you have a bucket list/diversity quota you have to fulfill ''black [check], Asian [check], latino [check] (...)''. The cast of any work should consist of both great actors and actors that fit the role/vision of the work the best. You can't compromise quality for diversity's sake. Now, if Asian actors are being left out intentionally that's obviously a bad scenario we should be paying attention to and actively trying to change.

[@somewony]

Regardless of any points or my opinions on them, I feel Mike is not articulating his points well. I get that the comment response videos are mostly unscripted, but this feels like you didn't even take a few minutes to think about your points before starting to say them.

[@felixweedon2258]

On the final point, I would argue the blind audition seeks a different ideal that the one you're looking at; rather than being bad because it hides the diversity of people I would argue it is good for decoupling performance from - in this case - gender. The idea of such a system is not to deal with the underlying problems of the society but rather to give a genuine appraisal of the abilities of these women. This could potentially allow the bias of the decision-makers to be laid bare, but it is very difficult to prove a "cause" is wrong before proving the "effect" it is creating is wrong. I agree that its better to keep the diversity alive (and be fair/just by avoiding bias) than to be blind to it (and be fair/just by avoiding information which could lead to bias), but you definitely haven't proved that clearly here. The example given in the comment was a good one, showing the merits of the latter system. A better way to respond would be with an example showing the merits of the former system.

[@Advent3546]

Every time The Last Samurai is brought up as a case of whitewashing, it makes me think that they either didn't see the movie or didn't pay attention to the movie.

[@Levowitz]

There are seven Immortal Weapons and two of them happen to be white. We talk about inclusion of races, but it doesn't apply if the person is white. We saw two of the other Immortal Weapons in the show: Dog Brother #1 and Bride of Nine Spiders.

[@ginavivigrey9407]

Its interesting that people don't seem to notice that Hollywood will now cast white, african-american, mexican and latin, and any mix there of in there movies and be ok with it. The worst part that really shows just how much they are excluding asians in movies is how willing they are to use foreign actors/actresses that fit their current norm to fill needed positions in there productions.

[@eloujtimereaver4504]

On the topic of Asian anime characters: Anime features are largely implicit rather than explicit. They are there to allow the mind to fill in the details. So while it is fair to say that a generic animu face is likely Asian that is as incorrect as to say it is Aryan, an animu face is whatever face is most familiar to the one who views it. However! The majority of quality anime does not use generic animu faces. Most of them add a lot of details that better signal what the character should actually look like. For examples look at Cowboy Bebop, Death Note, and Ghost in the Shell, each of these have a clearly signaled multiracial cast with clear and obvious racial markings. Light IS Japanese, Vincent Volaju IS NOT Japanese.

[@hathejoker]

8:00 I don't know about that statement. I think if you gave an average person from the west an anime/manga character without context of their origin, I think they would conclude that character would be a white person. I think once given the context they could see those characters to be Asian.

[@arwedrv7125]

I thought I might shed some light on the whole orchestra blind-audition thing, seeing as I'm in that world an know a bit about it. Being opposed to blind audition because it doesn't 'recognize' the individual is a slight misreprentation of it's purpose and effect. The fact is that every audition (at least in northern europe, where I'm at) there are at least 50-100 qualified applicants for any position. So the first round is a gruelling task of trying to differenciate an endless flow of really good musicians. The jury simply doesn't have the time or energy (or mental capacity) to fairly judge everyone, unless you reduce the variables you are going to judge. Thus, blind auditions removes several items from the mental load, like how they are expressing the music physically, how their technique looks, and most importantly, keeping your biases (which we all have) in check. There is differences between orchestras, but usually, the first and second round is blinded, to reduce the applicant pool down to a reasonable size to fairly judge. It's a bit of a tangent to the discussion at hand, but gender issues are a big deal in the classical music world, and blind auditions have helped solve some of them. It's not perfect, but better than the alternative. Expecting people to judge without bias is utopian, because humans are not built that way.

[@DoctorLazers]

To me, I feel like Iron Fist should be Asian because he's a kung fu practicioner. He should be Asian because his character is firmly entrenched and centred around Asian culture.

[@Zeklandia]

Also, I had a discussion with a friend about whether anime and manga characters were Asian, and I had to point out that when the character is of another race, they have a different appearance (e.g. white Americans have big chins and noses).

[@theodorejames8285]

Hi Mike, I have to disagree with you on the points you made about the women in the orchestra. The fact that those women are celebrated and the leaders of the orchestra (hopefully) reflecting on their own gender biases has nothing to do with how the musicians were selected. In fact, it seems that the blind audition is the fairest way to do auditions now that we know that there must have been gender bias in the recent past. I also don't think that it denies anyone their humanity. Saying, "I want to hire the best plumber, regardless of gender" is the very opposite sexism. Whether you end up hiring a woman or a man doesn't make them any less of a women or a man just because the criteria wasn't based on gender. I think you have this hang-up because among a certain ideological strain, 'color blindness' and 'gender blindness' have become dirty words. Seeking to not discriminate based on race or gender in the vast majority of circumstances, I think, should be commended, not discouraged.

[@aloysius_music]

The point isn't that seeking not to discriminate on the basis of race or gender is bad, of course that's great. The problem is that people don't usually actually do that. Obviously that was the case with orchestras because it took blind auditions for women to achieve the representation they deserved. That means that all non-blind auditions the people holding the audition were not hiring the best people because of their sexist bias. So in film where there aren't blind auditions, we can clearly see that the current system fails, and that, as in the world of orchestra, something ought to be done to correct the imbalance that exists. Colourblindness is I think admirable as a utopian ideal, but in the real pragmatic world where people are still very biased it's not feasible to just ignore the problem, because that won't change anything.

[@theodorejames8285]

Alex Inch Thank you for your comment and I'm glad we agree that the blind audition is the best way foreword and that it doesn't deny anyone's humanity. The actor situation is different as it is one of the few times where choosing based on race is appropriate. If the script says the family is black, then even if a great asian actor wants one of the roles it's just not in the cards unless they change things around considerably. When it comes to whites being cast as Asians, it just seems more pragmatic, particularly in today's climate, to cast an Asian actor. I see where the studio is coming from though. There aren't a ton of super popular asian actors in Hollywood that would draw an American crowed and it's tough to sell a big budget blockbuster without a big name attached. I predict that the ghost in the shell backlash, and the fact that it flopped, will just mean that studios won't invest in anime adaptations for a while. Seeing Hollywood's track record recently with remakes and such, id say this is for the best.

[@ellentheeducator]

Big thing. Martial arts is not an Asian thing. Martial arts is any codified system for killing folk. You mean east Asian martial arts. I really hate the continual assumption in our culture that because the martial arts we talk about are East Asian (wushu and karate mostly) that the team martial arts is Asian. A white dude being the greatest martial artist ever isn't that weird. A white dude showing up and suddenly being the greatest Kung Fu practitioner ever? That's weird Secondarily, Tom Cruise was not the last Samurai, he witnessed the last (plural) Samurai.

[@RockiesCanada]

It's true though, if you look at Olympic Judo, it's incredibly diverse and white people do incredibly well in it. Teddy Riner is a black Frenchman and he's a legend. Ronda Rousey and Kayla Harrison are incredible and they're blonde white girls. Illadis just retired and he's greek! And there are many more! Granted, the Japanese and Koreans do very well in Judo

[@ellentheeducator]

machcharge That's fair. My biggest problem is the white savior trope, where the white person becomes the only face of a martial art or culture of a non white people

[@RockiesCanada]

From a diversity standpoint it's nonsensical and from a storytelling standpoint it's also nonsensical. 100% agree

[@RadChild13]

I think they associate martial arts with eastern martial arts because the practice of western derived martial arts largely ended with the introduction of firearms. Amusingly there are those who are reviving them. ie www.hemaalliance.com/

[@ellentheeducator]

william stern I'm actually a Hema practitioner, which is why I'm a little defensive about it. I just really don't like the association with eastern ones because by my definition, Western martial arts never ended. A martial art is any codified system for killing people, including methods of gun use. If there is a specific technique or method, rather than simply point and shoot, then it is a martial art

[@productivediscord5624]

I kinda think that seeking to find Asian actors is the wrong question. I think that if there were more Asian directors, movie financiers, and writers that would lead to better representation through actors and their roles.

[@YuzuDrink]

I wasn't okay with the whitewashing in GitS. But I do feel like it flopped for other reasons beyond the controversy over its casting.

[@NickCombs]

I think the subject of colorblindness with respect to race somewhat muddies the waters. It's not about one's ability or willingness to notice/acknowledge another person's race & heritage. The real issue is when knowingly or not, we foster an environment of exclusion within our society. Whitewashing is bad because it excludes someone of the matching heritage who might be perfect for the role. Stereotypical roles are also bad because they serve to put someone's race/heritage in a category that is exclusive of other roles. The best way to combat both of these is to celebrate all races and their heritages for their unique strengths & traits while also making a point to show the ways in which they are just like the rest of us. Because they are us.

[@wrmsnicket]

Okay, first, the tuba argument. I agree with you completely, Michael. A blind audition may work for something like music or voice acting, but as far as actual acting goes, your face is a factor. And race is a factor. And height is a factor. And weight/muscle/curves are a factor. You can't cast a blind eye to things like that. The director and the crew have to see it that way because the world sees it that way. Because that's how it is. Sorry, it's true. On to the Iron Fist argument, this bothered me. You criticized Danny coming in and becoming the Iron Fist, but that's a major plot point in the show. It's the entire motivation behind Davos's heelflip. He was jealous that an outsider had come in and gotten a role that he had been training for his entire life. It happened to be his best friend, so it was fine. Until Danny abandoned his post. And after tracking him down, Danny refuses to go back. This is the straw that breaks the camel's back for Davos. But we couldn't have come to this point if that initial jealousy wasn't there to begin with. You could argue that Danny could still be Asian and still be an outsider because of how he arrives there. But it burns more to see it be someone completely different from you. And as far as Asian representation in the show itself goes, look at all the great Asian characters! Colleen, Madame Gao, the drunk master. If Death Note gets a "pass" because it has Asian representation in it's supporting cast, why criticize Iron Fist so heavily for it? It makes no sense. Anyway, don't usually watch comment responses or comment at all, but this subject interests me and that's my take.

[@16kauffmanh]

blind auditions in orchestras aren't implemented to increase diversity, they're employed to increase the skill of the orchestra. greater diversity is a biproduct.

[@krombopulos_michael]

I think that whether or not anime characters are supposed to be Asian (specifically Japanese since that's where most anime popular in the west comes from) is entirely dependent on the show. Attack on Titan's characters are very clearly supposed to be Germanic. I think Cowboy Bebop's cast are deliberately supposed to be a melting pot of cultures. Some animes are quite Japan-centric and feature characters who are clearly Japanese but that is not always true, and grey don't tend to draw them very differently.

[@professoryakkington9691]

Why do you say "It would be Tom Cruise in the Last Samurai all over again" ? That movie was a beautiful get together of two cultures and it actually made some degree of sense of how the white guy ended up fighting for the Japanese. He wasn't just some white guy who just so happened to be proficient in ancient Japanese martial arts, he was already a good fighter who got captured, learned to appreciate his former enemy and then fought for them.

[@lionskull1]

As a guy who likes movies, books, games, etc. for the sake of the story, I feel like this field of story telling has been "polluted" by this political talk. It feels wrong.

[@Noms_Chompsky]

Fantasy action movies seem to be mostly about fantasy action culture. Asian's don't really have super glowy fists and time control powers , they're like real people right?

[@lionskull1]

i just think it's because most of our fantasy action is rooted in western fantasy magic and story telling, which clashes pretty hard with eastern fantasy magic and story telling.

[@carolhawk3911]

Or have you seen the documentary made about the casting of the last Airbender flim? I believe it is on KZbin and called "Yellow face"

[@crimsama2451]

i think this is really a problem with many different causes that end with a few different symptoms. I'd imagine there aren't many Asian actors out there, which becomes a problem that feeds into itself a bit. then there's the fact that at the end of the day, everyone involved in any kind of media production is to some degree an artist, and the artists tastes and preferences will always fuel their choices. there's also the fact that the authors of the source materials are usually simply okay with these changes and welcome them. unfortunately for Asian Americans, if they want more roles in movies, they'll have to make their own source materials, build up not just their own actors, but their own directors, casting directors, producers, etc. but honestly, i just hope Hollywood just quits trying to adapt anime and manga because they really suck at it.

[@AVAL2775]

the reason they dont adress the causes of the effects is cause in the long run they dont matter thats the whole point of the not seeing race or gender, the cause doesnt matter the results do

[@isaacrules2010]

Isn't diversity for diversity's sake just as "racist" as only casting a single race? Like, isn't it just as racist to say "I DO want that Asian person in my movie because he's Asian" as it is to say "I DON'T want that person in my movie because he's Asian."? I totally agree that we should have characters of different races played by actors of their respective race... HOWEVER, taking a group of already established characters and making them different races just to add diversity doesn't make any sense to me. (Ex. Grover in the Percy Jackson movie. He was white with brown hair in the books, but they made him black in the movie.)

[@Zeklandia]

I gotta disagree with the comment about Chinese movies being propaganda, not because propaganda isn't a problem, but because American media is incredibly propagandalistic. It isn't fair to say that someone rising up should have to be more perfect than those already at the top in order to earn their place there.