Commodore 16 SaRuMan-TED No Mod 64k RAM Expansion

[@francoisleveille409]

For everyone's information: Saruman-TED with switch is 18 Euros or 20$US - Saruman-TED with no switch is 12 Euros or 13.50$US Thank you Jan Beta for making this video! - Eslapion

[@tomf3150]

Eslapion... I know this name... There was a city named Eslapion....

[@francoisleveille409]

@@tomf3150 It comes from the french comic books series 'Les Petits Hommes' by Seron.

[@francoisleveille409]

@@jeffreyphipps1507 I announce them on Amibay and on Melon64. www.melon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=9425 www.amibay.com/showthread.php?108610-SaRuMan-TED-64k-RAM-for-C16-and-C116 You can send me a PM on either of these forums.

[@electron_greg]

Very instructional video - thank you. I ordered this module. Came from Germany to England in 2 weeks. Installation was easy and it works GREAT!

[@JanBeta]

Excellent! Yeah, this is definitely the most elegant and easy solution to upgrade the C16 currently. I think there is a cartridge, too, but it technically must be less compatible because it needs to do some funky stuff to work. The SaRuMan should be 100% compatible with all Plus/4 stuff as far as I can see.

[@LeftoverBeefcake]

Yup, this is the board I ordered to fix my major screw-up when trying to upgrade my C16's RAM... thanks again for including the link to it in your other video. Just waiting patiently for it to arrive in the mail... :)

[@JanBeta]

It works nicely. Eslapion told me that he has quite some orders to work on, also on the PLAnkton, so it takes a while. It's a one-man show unfortunately. Also, PCB manufacturing was delayed a bit because of that virus thing in China. Hope you get the SaRuMan soon.

[@BocaRetroGames]

Thanks for the entertainment Jan. Too bad there were no solder involved this time hehe. This alpha ray game is really fantastic ! And the audio from commodore 16 sounds a lot like the master system to me ! Have a great weekend

[@CasualCommodore]

Man, I needed this a few years ago. What an excellent and elegant solution! 👍🏼 I had someone else do a switchable 64k upgrade on my C16 - a lot of wires soldered different places. But it works, so.. That's fine.. 😄

[@JanBeta]

As far as I understood it, this solution is pretty non-trivial internally, you have to make up for the different timings of SRAM vs DRAM and such. It's literally magic to me that this thing works. ;) Very convenient way to upgrade the RAM indeed. Now we only need newly manufactured replacement TED chips and the C16 is good for some more decades. ;)

[@CasualCommodore]

@@JanBeta Wow, okay. I have the deepest respect for all the brilliant people out there, that can overcome obstacles and create great hardware for all our lovely old machines! Just amazing. TED replacement.. Oh, absolutely. But I guess that is even more non-trivial.. :) I have been thinking about getting a spare TED, should mine die someday (it is heatsinked!). But I don't know. I don't use the C16 that often.

[@RetroRecollections]

I'm glad you covered these single pcb solutions, they are cheap and easy to do. Great to give these the exposure. I installed a similar one (probably the same design) on my channel but you have a few more subs than me 😝

[@JanBeta]

Oh, didn't see your video. Subscribed to your channel now. :) Yes, these solutions are brilliant. Maybe I'll check out the version for the C64, too. RAM is such a common fault.

[@RetroRecollections]

@@JanBeta cheers Jan! 👍

[@raymondheath7668]

For awhile I was having trouble getting good 64KX1 chips for my C64 projects. I stumbled across a box of RAM extension cards that had socketed 256X1 chips that had the identicle pin out except pin 1 (which is not used on the C64) was used as A8. I popped them in and had my 64K back. Just to be sure, I jumpered all pin 1 of the RAM chip sockets to ground. Works great and is a good source for chips

[@barnabas5688]

Alpha Ray looks really good for the C16!

[@JanBeta]

Yes, it plays good, too. That is, if you can play... ;)

[@hollgo626]

Nice video. Keep your c16s fresh, for the prices even for a non working model are getting hilariously high in the moment.

[@JanBeta]

Thanks! I'm going to hold on to at least one. ;)

[@Jimbaloidatron]

"There is nothing you can do wrong with this"... Except the orientation, or bending the pins! 😂

[@barnabas5688]

beat me to it...

[@jbuurk]

"even pull" with the chip puller ... did you see that motherboard flex? Much better to carefully leverage it out bit by bit with a small screwdriver using the socket as a base.

[@root42]

jbuurk Yeah, I would also use a screwdriver. Or most cheap soldering irons actually come with a bunch of leveraging tools of varying sizes and shapes. Those are pretty good, because they are angled and you can swap sides and lift a millimeter at a time until the chip is loose.

[@jammi__]

Proper chip pullers aren't like the one Jan has here. A proper one has a squeeze mechanism, which pushes two parts of the mechanism away from each other (between socket and chip).

[@jbuurk]

Also pushing chips back into their sockets without properly supporting the motherboard is not exactly great either.

[@JanBeta]

Yeah, agreed. These things don't work very well. Especially for larger chips. Which is a bummer, because I have a more proper chip puller for smaller ICs (up to 40 pins) that actually works well...

[@Ramdileo_sys]

@Jan Beta tip on shrinking tube my friend... ;-) ... use the blue flame of the lighter instead of the red flame... the red flame it's too hot.. and burns it quickly.. leaving it uneven.. and sometimes blistering it quickly.. the blue flame.. takes much longer to burn it or blister it.. being much easier to shrink it properly.. tray it.. you will see..

[@JaySmith-cd1ln]

Thanks for the video Jan! \m/ 😀

[@JanBeta]

Thank you for watching. ;)

[@jeffreyplum5259]

I wonder if a thermal pad solution might work? The shield coulbe turned into a heat sink, like on the Pi 400. Good luck

[@feicodeboer]

That's also a way to use a DVD case ...

[@JanBeta]

Yes, very smart packaging!

[@SimonEllwood]

1 Mbit = 128K Bytes.

[@scouse1967]

Jan,i just love watching your repair and upgrade videos,they are brilliant and so detailed.Please could you answer a question i have.My Commodore 16's motherboard/glass fuse has "Blown" so i need to replace it ASAP.I've been told by a few C16 owners over on Facebook that the fuse is rated at 1.5 amp "Quick Blow" fuse.Please could you confirm this for me.Thanks ever so much and please carry on uploading more of your videos for us to enjoy :)

[@JanBeta]

Originally it’s a 1.5A 250V slow blow fuse. Same as in the C64s. Slow blow makes sense because the quick acting ones can sometimes blow accidentally because of power spikes while turning the machine on.

[@TrudgeRC]

I've always thought I'd use a reed switch for things like this under the top of the case, and just place a magnet on the case if I needed 16 KB. No holes needed that way.

[@francoisleveille409]

The magnet may damage fragile CMOS/NMOS digital circuits. I don't recommend.

[@charlesdorval394]

@@francoisleveille409 Really? I wouldn't have guess that, thanks for the info !

[@elmariachi5133]

This game looks just great! I wish there had been games likes this back then.. It hurts, thinking that I paid much more money for upgrading my current C16 board to 64k the hard way, and it still is far from complete. PLA, TED, keyboard and case are still missing :( PS: Never say things like 'You can't do anything wrong with this' in a public video xD

[@thomasa76]

Hey Jan, thanks for your movies, I really appreciate them 😊 I'm curious what you use to get the screen out on to the monitor?

[@winstonsmith478]

I'd cut out a rectangle in the metalized paper RF shield where it hits the TED to allow better heat convection/radiation cooling.

[@awilliams1701]

I would just automatically put it in the trash without hesitation. I doubt it serves it's intended function and it makes the whole thing hotter.

[@Hagledesperado]

Cut an RF shield sized hole in the RF shield, so to speak. ;)

[@JanBeta]

I usually just get rid of the RF shield altogether. It doesn't do much apart from blocking heat convection anyway. ;)

[@eddielegs344]

PCB way 😁 Nice Fix i have no C16 butt this great thnx Jan and the Maker.. i like the black case of the C16. Bye

[@PMCRetroGamer]

Jan the chip destroyer lol good video btw. Love you channel

[@JanBeta]

Thanks! ;)

[@lactobacillusprime]

Broken chips on the C16 (I have four dead ones and re-purposed one) make this quite an unreliable system sadly. I don't believe there is a need to lower the 64K to 16K for some programs. 64K is very compatible. If only there were new TED replacements we could have the C16 a bit more reliable.

[@JanBeta]

Yeah, the CPUs and TEDs break all the time. They are not very well made and run at their limits regarding clock speeds and heat. So far I have not encountered anything that would not work with 64k. Somebody mentioned some software on my Twitter but I don't think it was anything significant.

[@ewaldikemann4142]

Removing the IF-shield produced a lot of EMI in your surrounding. It has a important reason to be there...

[@SolitaryBro]

With devices now being mainly digital, there isn't really a chance of them being affected by RF radiation... Important back then, not any more.

[@00Skyfox]

Is the ferrite donut on the keyboard cable really all that necessary? Or could that be removed to free up some space?

[@kcinplatinumgaming2598]

funny enough the first commodore i ever repaired was a 16+4 and I just had to replace the CPU, that was in 1991, for a doctor, I had to write a program to check the text file and count the amount of words because the doctor would invoice clients with the pricing of words ..first ever basic program on the commodore 16+4 i ever wrote too .. lol soon after I started writing machine code on the C64 oh those where the days!!!

[@JanBeta]

Oh, interesting. So at least somebody used them for "business" as was intended for these machines originally. Thanks for sharing. :)

[@chrismorley5393]

Wow, a very inexpensive expansion for the amount of assembly work it must require.

[@DiverCTH]

The SMDs are usually done by an automated process (PCBWay offers that as an add-on service). As for the through-hole components, those can either be done by hand, or the SMDs can be epoxied to the board and then the board is wave soldered. For small job lots like these, it's usually cheapest for the hobbyist-seller to hand solder the through-hole components themself.

[@andreracicot4881]

Hello I would like to know if you can give me an answer to my question on the playstation p-1, can you put a card like that re raspberry adopt the technology of today which make to pass to a games of p-1 to ps- 3 also a video card to adopt with today's technology thank you very much.

[@einstein.1869]

Have you tried the 6510 adaptor socket on a c16? You lose some features but TED chips are getting hard to find and there is no FPGA alternative yet.

[@francoisleveille409]

The 6510 adapter is a replacement for the CPU, not the TED.

[@JasonPullara]

Every time one of you retro repair guys says it's perfectly ok to remove the RF shielding because it only helps comply with the FCC rules, another ham radio operator dies.

[@theannoyedmrfloyd3998]

Jason Pullara Thank Adrian's Digital Basement.

[@awilliams1701]

From what I heard it actually makes no difference either way. It doesn't actually work.

[@JanBeta]

The cardboard shields don't do a lot of actual shielding. I don't think the emissions from these old computers are that significant anyway.

[@macflexnm]

Does this mean you can play c64 games with the ram expansion?

[@dr.ignacioglez.9677]

I LOVE C64 👍🥂🎩

[@root42]

Use a heatpipe on the TED! :)

[@root42]

And I would remove the RF shield anyway. It hurts the air circulation in the whole case.

[@JanBeta]

Yes, I agree to both. This C16 is going to get my usual "future proofing" treatment soon. :)

[@jovmilos]

Stream C16 games, that's actually a great idea

[@JanBeta]

I will stream some more C16 games soon. Currently I caught a nasty cold (I hope) and don't feel like streaming.

[@michailokeefeMooMoo]

Where can I get a chip like that one all set up

[@JanBeta]

The link to Eslapion‘s shop/forum is in the video description.

[@xxTeamFearLessxx1]

Ich will aber nicht meinen C 16 öffnen und da irgendwelche fremden Chips reinstecken. Wozu hat der Rechner einen Expansion Port? Bau doch mal einen Ram Chip mit 48k auf ein Steckmodul und mach dazu ein Video.

[@claudioquintanilla1471]

hey man!!! remove that "RF shield" it´s totaly usefull !!! it´s in there just for radio frecuency FCC regulations emmiting , but couse over heating due to it is made of paperboard (excelent thermal isolator) besides it´s blocking air flow so no matter how many heatsink over your presious chips you have, it doesn´t work as supposed to do.

[@JanBeta]

Yes, I usually do that. Just wanted to demonstrate that it fits even with the paper shield in place, as some people prefer to leave it in.

[@SolitaryBro]

With devices now being mainly digital, there isn't really a chance of them being affected by RF radiation... Important back then, not any more.

[@SchwachsinnProduzent]

Sounds like this mod could be great for trouble shooting. if the machine works again with the mod, it was just the ram and the rest is ok

[@JanBeta]

Yes, that's definitely one good use for it. :)

[@fragalot]

I guess there's no way to make it run like a proper Commodore 64?

[@davefarquhar8230]

No, because the TED chip in the 16 isn't compatible with the VIC-II and SID in the 64. These days we use device drivers to abstract the hardware and maintain compatibility, but machines from this era don't have enough memory and CPU power to deal with that overhead.

[@Lee_Adamson_OCF]

Those things much have been a lot more popular in Europe than here in 'Murica.

[@JanBeta]

Yeah, they completely messed up pricing/marketing for this series of computers. Afterwards, they sold them in Europe for massively discounted prices so they were pretty popular here.

[@strunapl6103]

Jan you must be happy person to have another C-16. ;-) I'm still looking one C16 or P/4 for myself. But mostly looking for C-116. It was my first computer when I get it in 1985 year. What's would be next mod? JiffyDOS? or 256kB of RAM? www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/documents/projects/memory/plus4/index.html

[@JanBeta]

JiffyDOS would indeed be an idea, never tried the C16 version. I don't think 256k would be useful for anything I want to do with it though but the idea is interesting, too. :)

[@ford1546]

With upgraded memory, can you use comodore 64 software?

[@JanBeta]

No, apart for the similar CPU, it's a completely different architecture.

[@repetto74]

Also C64 uses basic 2.0 while C16 is using 3.5

[@ford1546]

@@repetto74 ok. stupid that they didn't make it backwards compatible with c64. You can probably specially program c16 so you can boot up with basic 2.0. I mean I've seen some c64 where you can start up with different firmware or what it's called!??

[@repetto74]

@@ford1546 No as far as I know you cannot change the Basic version on the C16. Firmware routines were hard coded into the Kernel Rom while Basic routines were burned into a dedicated ROM. The C16 hardware has been built around the more advanced basic 3.5 and you cannot roll back to 2.0.

[@JeremyLevi]

@@ford1546 Theoretically you could do a complete rewrite of Basic 2.0 for the 264 series (C16, Plus/4) but there wouldn't be much point. It would still only work with the simplest of Basic programs since there are no sprites available on the TED, the TED sound is completely different from the SID, and any PEEKS and POKES would still have to be changed in the Basic program before it would run. Way easier just to modify the actual Basic program itself to be compatible.

[@vanhetgoor]

Not much use for a heatsink when it is hidden under a paper & tinfoil RF-shield! Therefor remove that paper & tinfoil and replace it with a thin sheet of aluminium, put some sticky heat conductors on the chips that need cooling and bend the new and improved extra durable Vanhetgoor™ heatsink / RF-shield just as long until it fits.

[@AussieArcade]

No proof that heat sinks extend the life of these TED chips anyway. You're either lucky or not.

[@CobraTheSpacePirate]

I probably should email you this but here on KZbin now...I just hit me...Are you by chance related to Hans Bethe?

[@JanBeta]

No, at least I don‘t know about it. "Beta" is not my real last name, too. ;)

[@JesusisJesus]

Rip the motherboard out and shove a c64 reloaded Mk2 into the case. 64k, stereo SID. I got my reloaded last week and it’s absolutely amazing and perfect. You can’t make a mistake with it, it’s so well made.

[@JanBeta]

No, I already have a lot of C64s and love them. This is just going to be an expanded C16. :)

[@mrdaxtercrane]

The font in the thumbnail made it look like a Perifractic video

[@JanBeta]

Oh, didn't mean to steal that look. It's just the C64 font I use all the time highlighted a bit.

[@mrdaxtercrane]

@@JanBeta maybe it's flattery, Peri steals your voice all the time to make a joke

[@ford1546]

The Commodore C64 came in 1982 while the C16 came in 1984 as a cheaper alternative to the C64. C16 was not as popular as C64 was. I think the reason was that the C16 had so little memory and another sound chip and newer basic versin which made it not backwards compatible with C64 software. okay to make something cheap but not as cheap as the C16 was How would C64 games look if C64 had 1 megabyte of memory ??

[@francoisleveille409]

The TED in the C16 and Plus/4 actually has features not found in the C64. For example, the ability to display 121 colors.

[@ford1546]

@@francoisleveille409 Commodore C16 needs to have more memory to take full advantage of multiple colors at the same time ?? No matter how you turn it, c16 is far too cheaply made!?

[@francoisleveille409]

@@ford1546 When you enable the graphics mode on the C16, you have about 4kB left for BASIC. Also, the way it is built, inside, it's quite difficult to add RAM to a C16 - there are no expansions you can just plug as was the case with the VIC-20. That's why I make Saruman-TED. Adding RAM doesn't make it into a C64, it makes it more like a Plus/4. With 64k, the C16 can run games and software made for the Plus/4.

[@pvc988]

These simple 'chip pullers' are useless. I damaged more chips using them than just using a knife. If you want a chip puller, get a proper one.

[@Hagledesperado]

I found that they're good for 8 pin chips and maybe up to 16 pins. Anything bigger, they just make things worse.

[@catriona_drummond]

And I thought I am just bad at using them...

[@JanBeta]

I have a proper one that works for ICs up to 40 pins. Unfortunately the TED is a larger chip so I had to resort to the medieval method. And failed. If you are more careful (and have better sockets), you can get reasonable results with the cheapo pullers, too, I found.

[@Ramdileo_sys]

@Jan Beta tip on shrinking tube my friend... ;-) ... use the blue flame of the lighter instead of the red flame... the red flame it's too hot.. and burns it quickly.. leaving it uneven.. and sometimes blistering it quickly.. the blue flame.. takes much longer to burn it or blister it.. being much easier to shrink it properly.. tray it.. you will see..

[@larsenmats]

Why would anyone need more than 16KB RAM anyway :D

[@JanBeta]

Well... ;D

[@jammi__]

Your ESD strap does nothing useful for your job here. You should connect it to the ground of the computer you're working on, not the earth.

[@RobA500]

Not true, it should be connected to a common ground as Jan had. Connecting it the the c16 would have not worked at all it’s in a plastic case so is completely insulated. Professional work stations are connected to earth and you can also get adopters the plug in to electrical sockets for this purpose.

[@jammi__]

@@RobA500 It has nothing to do with the case, it's about static electricity and holding your components at the same potential as the device you're installing them into. Whatever earth potential is, is irrelevant if the ground plane of the computer isn't connected to earth.

[@RobA500]

jammi well technically it does have something to do with the case as the machine was not plugged in so not connected to the common ground. Static would have nowhere to dissipate to safely away from sensitive components. Better if the board was on an esd bench or mat connected to ground.

[@jammi__]

@@RobA500 It has nothing to do with the case in computers where the case is nonconductive and in the case of conductive cases, it only matters if the ground plane of the motherboard is connected to the case, and the case is somehow earthed when you work on it. Otherwise, it's still the computer you should connect the ground strap to.

[@Madblaster6]

PCB WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY

[@JanBeta]

Yay! ;P

[@theannoyedmrfloyd3998]

You can always remove the laughable cardboard RF "shield."

[@GuybrushThriftweed]

Send it to Adrian Black :) He collects them.