Commodore C2N Datasette Repair Attempt

[@johncrichton4341]

I had this DIY mod whereby I soldered a single headphone speaker to the board to hear the head output so I could adjust the head to optimum position. Cured 95% of all cassette loading issues!

[@srduke]

I've just got both of my C2Ns working for the first time in 30 years. Thanks for the info 😁

[@GadgetUK164]

One of the big problems with these is the pinch roller and capstan - the rubber wears and as a result, if its not slipping or not rotating at all, it just results in uneven movement of the tape. I've got 3 just like yours where its basically needs new rubbers (not the belts, I've got new belts).

[@JanBeta]

+GadgetUK164 I'll definitely keep that in mind and check for even movement. Thanks for the tip!

[@RogerBarraud]

Another thing that happens is that the Datasette is left on 'play' (play button pressed) for N years, and the pinch wheel is permanently indented where the capstan presses (thru the tape) against it :-( AFAIK only really fixable by replacing the pinch wheel - but it may be that warming it up or other methods may have some value.

[@bjrnen8505]

Hmm.. In the first minutes of this video I thought it was a simple head adjustment job. But I really, really want to thank you. I have five (or more) funky decks. I never attempted to repair them but now I will use this video as a reference. Thank you. I am still using my original Datenrecorder DR 1535 from Noris Data. It has yellowed but has been working fine since 1988.

[@JanBeta]

Oh, thank you. Hope it helps. There's gonna be a follow-up as soon as I get the (hopefully fitting) belt I ordered. I'm also going to try some other methods for adjusting, I think.

[@bjrnen8505]

Oh, great. I'll be looking forward to that. Please share links for the replacement drive belts. :)

[@tharkthax3960]

Excellent video. I've fixed endless Atari 1010 and xc12 decks and the insides are identical! It's always belts, dirty head/capstan, misaligned heads and less commonly the caps need replacing. On a few decks the audio was very low due to bad caps. Great videos - thanks.

[@JanBeta]

Oh, thank you! :D

[@tharkthax3960]

@@JanBeta it's a shame the c64 didn't have the loading audio , be easier to tweak the head.

[@rodoherty1]

Nicely filmed. I have two 2 datasettes that need a service and I think you gave me the info I need to have a go. Thanks!

[@JanBeta]

+Rob O'Doherty Thanks! Hope your datasettes will work better after servicing. :)

[@104d_3rr0r_vince]

Good job!!! Get a better belt though, if it is tight it would go faster. And here is my story which nobody cares about. I bought my first C64 a few years ago and a broken datassette, never had before none of them. I did the usual repair, cleaning and belt replacement but the head needed alignment. So before my FCIII, I got a simple prog and convert it to wav. Then I got a cassette adapter and with my phone I’ve loaded. I borrowed an original game and I did the alignment. After that I connected an external deck and put there the game. The next step was to connect the deck’s output to the cassette adapter in the datassette. So I set the head of the external deck same as the datassette so I could record games from images. Also I did some fast load tapes with wav2rpg, it can “compress” a 10-12min game in 2-3mins. My datassette is not a fastload capable one but it works just fine with this.

[@JanBeta]

+Vincent GR Oh, that seems to be a promising approach. Don't have one of those cassette adapters but I could definitely try to adjust the datasette to a tape recorded on the HiFi with the scope and such. Gonna experiment with that. Thanks for sharing! :)

[@rarbiart]

How long didn't i see a "Mastertronic" tape... it must be more than 30 years...

[@tonypitsacota2513]

I want a Datasette now after watching this cool video.... Thanks Jan.

[@CP200S]

I have successfully used those "tape adapters" (like the Panasonic SH-CDM8B). Inserted the plug into my cell phone and the tape in an old cassette player and it was a bit tricky, but worked (on ZX Spectrum).

[@GaryKildall]

There might be a problem with rubber wheel drum that pushes the tape towards the play and record head. If a casette stops when loading is finished with an MSX computer eventually for example the rubber wheel drum slowly damaged with the in print of the metal against which between the tape ran. I usually looked for old worn out players since the rubber rol drum is a standard size usually. Sorry can't explain it in English since I speak another language. It would make a tick noise at a regular interval if you would have this with an audio player. With the MSX I so many times had to listen the modem like sound and adjusting the Azimuth with a screwdriver by listening until the sound was sharp at the ear.

[@JanBeta]

The pinch roller and the rubber seem okay on this one as far as I can see. I saw worn ones on audio tape decks sometimes. I'll check how straightly the tape is transported when I get back to the datasette. Adjusting speed and azimuth by sound is also something I want to try.

[@papafrank808]

When a little boy used to see the tape drives on a computer, his jaw dropped. He saw something he could hardly believe. These tape drives paced back and forth with a speed that seemed impossible. But what made Commomdore out of this magic? The most boring and slowest memory you've ever seen. Jan Beta try to bring this magic into these datasettes again, because I want to be astonished again about a datasette.

[@grave8digger8]

As i work with the Datasette, i build by myself a little Vu Meter on the right side of the Datasette with a switch. I solder it at point in the Datasette on PCB. But i have forgotten wich. Switch on, insert tape, press play it turn the meter to maximum. Switch to off and it works. I think it will give also a version with a led.

[@JanBeta]

Oh, I saw those mods on the web somewhere. Something I yet have to try. I imagine it works quite well with the VU meter. The LED probably is not quite as good as an indicator I guess.

[@grave8digger8]

Wenn ich richtig liege, können wir deutsch schreiben :) Nee, LED war nicht so gut. I think you are German, so we can talk it. It's better for me. My english is not very well...sometimes :) You are right, the LED is not a good Indikator :) I will start to repair my 1541 Floppy Disk All works, but when i type the Command Load"$",8, the 1541 didn't react to the command :( I've change at first all Elko's and i clean all things. I have 12V and 5V from Power Supply. The Powerup is working. Red LED lights 2 Second, Disk drive Spinup and i controlled the Speed on 50 Hz at Spinup. Already is fine :) But i haven't any Reaction to commands. I hope you can help me

[@JanBeta]

Ja, meine Muttersprache ist deutsch. :) Wenn die 1541 nicht auf Kommandos reagiert, ist häufig einer der CIA chips defekt. Eine einfache Möglichkeit (falls die Chips gesockelt sind) ist, die beiden einfach gegeneinander auszutauschen. Verändert sich das Fehlerbild auch nur im geringsten, ist vermutlich einer der beiden defekt. Ansonsten kann auch alles Mögliche andere defekt sein. Vom kaputten Kabel bis zum Logik IC geht eigentlich alles. Ich empfehle (wie eigentlich immer) die Troubleshooting Guides von Ray Carlsen. Da sind verschiedenste Fehlerbilder und Lösungen klar beschrieben (leider natürlich auf Englisch, aber ich denke verständlich): personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm/1541/ Ich hoffe das hilft ein bisschen und die 1541 läuft bald wieder richtig. :)

[@JanBeta]

Die CIAs sind die MOS 6522 Chips (habe ich vergessen zu schreiben...).

[@grave8digger8]

Vielen Dank. Hab sie gegeneinander getauscht, aber noch der selbe Fehler. Kabel in Ordnung und 7414 and 7406 getauscht. :)

[@naytch2003]

Awesome video as always Jan!!!

[@JanBeta]

+naytch2003 Thank you! :D

[@SianaGearz]

Project suggestion, if you like: it would be awesome be able to use a common Android smartphone as a tape via 4-pin adapter cable! It could go both ways, both for loading and saving, by using the microphone input alongside the audio output.

[@gigagiga1600]

LOL Lubricate what? I repair all this computer since `82.-83. no YT, no internet, no schematic...:) Now its so ease to repair...But good job man. i love your video. Sorry for bad eng.

[@JanBeta]

Thanks! I went a bit overboard with the lubrication, I know. I thought I'd show it anyway for people to at least see me trying and do better. There's also a follow up video where I explain some of my mistakes and finally got it working again. :)

[@vic20kid8]

Ahh the memories of adjusting the head alignment when trying to get pirated tape games to load after being copied on home music HiFi systems ;)

[@JanBeta]

Hahaha, what a pain. I'm planning to experiment with recording tapes from my soundcard to hifi. Will be interesting to see how well that works. ;)

[@MultiArrie]

the pain is hifi recorder that it records stereo, 2 tracks. dataset is mono.

[@fluffyfoxbunny]

I have that same Squirm tape!

[@jasonoleary3527]

Good job young Peter

[@mattinx]

Stretching belts like that is usually a bad idea - you're applying additional lateral forces to all the bearings, which increases wear rates (in some cases causing permanent damage fairly quickly)

[@JanBeta]

+Matt London I removed the belt after shooting the video so I hope I didn't do any permanent damage. It was just a temporary replacement. I actually have a new belt in the C2N now (fitting perfectly). Next part of the video is coming soon. ;)

[@mattinx]

Jan Beta bit of quick testing like that shouldn't have caused any lasting issues :)

[@mrjsv4935]

Some original games didn't work even when the C-64 was new :D

[@JanBeta]

Haha, yes, you're right. I think sometimes you would have to readjust the datasette for every single tape to work.

[@redherring3110]

Jan far as i know most silicone sprays are safe with plastics although as you have grease might as well use it. I think it is possible that those cassettes have gone bad. I would send you one that works but I lost my C-64 collection years ago.

[@JanBeta]

+Red Herring I will use the grease I have on the gears next time. My silicone spray should be safe, even says so on the can. I'll try to get some working tape to test or see if the data on the ones I have is corrupted with WAV2TAP or a similar tool and my HiFi tape deck.

[@bwack]

Cool stuff. Seems like the original tapes might be bad. The old belts were definitively loose.

[@JanBeta]

Thanks! The new belt's definitely too tight so that might cause more issues. I ordered another one and am going to do some more testing. The tapes might still be bad, of course. Maybe I'll check them with the tape deck on my stereo and see how the levels are on there.

[@mikelee8520]

Try the Azimuth alignment.

[@JanBeta]

+Mike Lee I ordered a new belt and am going to try to adjust the azimuth after inserting it again.

[@soothcoder]

Yes back in the day we (as kids) used to copy the tapes with double tape drives. It was very hit and miss as the tape alignment tended to vary a lot between systems. Sometimes you could get tapes to load by flipping the tape drive upside down as it was loading (i.e buttons down)!

[@soothcoder]

Also the ones where the screen flashes colours I think have loaders that increase the baud-rate to the tape drive (to make tape loading faster). Those are less likely to work than say one where you save something to tape yourself.

[@JanBeta]

+Tom Biskupic Wow, that sounds like a true adventure ahead of me. I'll see what I can do. ;)

[@JanBeta]

+Tom Biskupic Yes, that's what I thought. The data density for the fast loading tapes has to be higher so they are more likely to fail. That explains why the tape with original Commodore format worked and the games didn't.

[@painkillergko]

I have the same model:). Thanks Jan...

[@iadoremy64film]

*** IMPORTANT NOTE IF THE AZIMUTH SOFTWARE ISN'T REGISTERING DATA *** When I tried to us the azimuth program the tape would play but no data lines would appear. This is because before running the program you have to load from tape for a moment and then stop it. Adrian Black demonstrates this quirk in his video using the same software: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJLcpZ1oqr-Cmas

[@discoHR]

The flywheel in my C2N keeps dropping and grinding on the metal below. The capstan's white plastic washer on the top side just doesn't hold it for too long.

[@TechLord79]

Thanks, now you have given me an idea where that hammering sound comes from! I already realized having it bottom-up, back cover removed it doesn't make such noises. Could this also relate to reading problems? Or am I having two discrete problems with that second hand datasette?

[@KentuckyRanger]

Lord I spent many an hour loading and saving to one of these in my computer electronics classes...

[@JanBeta]

Haha, yes, a very slow storage medium. I still love to fire up a game from a cassette sometimes. It feels like slowing down the whole world for a moment. :)

[@KentuckyRanger]

It really brings back fond memories of school. (College) I'm old... LOL! I LOVE to watch channels like yours! It really brings back awesome memories!

[@mikelee8520]

On Commodore CF Tape Powerpack No. 27 there is a program called Loadmaster for this sort of thing.

[@JanBeta]

Oh, going to try that, too. Thanks!

[@TheHighlander71]

I wish I had had that calibration program. I spent too much time fiddling with that damn screw without knowing what I was doing. Cleaning the pinch roller, if one is there is an underestimated way of getting tape units to run. I had never seen the inside of a tape drive I think :)

[@JanBeta]

+The Highlander The program is not bad indeed. Not very precise but a good start. It came from German disk/tape mag "Input 64". I've known it for quite some time. Cleaning the capstan and the roller is very helpful. Learned that in my days as an audio guy. :)

[@TheHighlander71]

I cleaned a tape drive for my zx spectrum once. Its heads had been cleaned and belts replaced but it wouldn't work worth a damn. Then I cleaned the pinch rollers and presto! Even ABBA sounded a lot better afterwards.

[@bwack]

LOL. Actually, listening to music is a good way of checking the "wow" and "flutter". If ABBA goes waAaterlOUOU then it will need belt replacement :D JaysVintageJunk had a video about that. Found it: watch?v=SF-HF6ibtIg

[@JanBeta]

Hahaha, that's probably a good idea to check if the tape rolls evenly. I remember there was a little program that played the sound from tape through the SID. I'll definitely try that in the follow-up video.

[@bwack]

I never heard of that. Interesting. Probably will sound harsh since the audio will be squared by the opamps and inverter in the datasette. Another way is to poke the circuit board with a capacitor (small 100nF or so) connected to line-in on an amplifier. When you find the right spot on the opamps it should have the audio of the tape. I bought a C64 that came with turboload tapes, and between the games there were short pieces of music from previous recordings :)

[@williamfinlay4403]

The symptoms you are experiencing are EXACTLY the same as mine. I'm ordering a drive belt to see what difference that makes 😀.

[@JanBeta]

+William Finlay I ordered a belt, too. Hope that fixes it. Might still be an alignment issue as the software is not very precise. Fingers crossed for your repair! :)

[@scouse1967]

40% alcohol/Vodka works a treat on cleaning tape heads ;) lol

[@mrsinewave1230]

What are the dimensions of the screws that holds the case and the motherboard together? I recently got a datasette with no screws holding the thing together and now i want to buy new screws.

[@sarreqteryx]

you may have to replace either something electronic, or the motor. unless yours tapes have gone kaput (they are nearly 40 years old at this point)

[@JanBeta]

+Sarreq Teryx I hope it's not the motor. The tapes might very well be an issue of course. I'll check the electronics in the next C2N video.

[@jeffnay6502]

I have a commodore PET 2001-8 with a built in tape drive. I just replaced the belt, and the system tried to read the tape, so I tried cleaning the heads using a q-tip and 99% alcohol. Now the drive does not seem to read at all. Do I need to replace the heads?

[@aaronosborne4906]

Strange...I remember my datasette had a knob to ajust the head and an led bar to indicate signal strength ???

[@Simon-ex5ek]

My cassette player play button works then just grinds to a holt is it worth me cleaning inside

[@JanBeta]

I’d take a look at the insides and give it a good clean. Maybe relubricate the mechanics and change the belts, too. Chances are that something just got stuck because of old lubricant or worn out belts.

[@horlixs]

Hi i have the same issue except it will not work atall. I tried to adjust alignment blind over a couple of hours but now its dead. How can i get the head alighnment software on a floppy? I have no means to make one. I know my floppy drive works as thats all i can use. Do you know where i can get the floppy version of tge head alignment software?

[@aaa000777]

Hi Jan, Your belt is way too tight. You definitely need to find a larger belt. I would have tried what I had on hand as well, but you are putting undue stress on the mechanism. There also appears to be a stutter to the tape reels when playing. It could be the video, but it is very likely that there is an idler pulley that is slipping or it could be a result of the too tight belt. The lubrication you applied in the video won't really help. You need to put it on the rotating shafts and not the stationary end that attaches to the pulleys. You should pull up the large flywheel that is attached to the capstan and lubricate the capstan bearing that the shaft turns in. When doing so, be careful you don't loose the plastic washer that is inside the tape compartment. Lubricate this shaft with some light oil, like sewing machine oil. Also check the tape speed. If the speed is wrong it will affect the frequencies read back by the head. You can probably use a regular audio tape and connect an amplifier to the shielded cables that lead back to the C64. Adjust the tape speed so that the audio sounds correct. -bob

[@JanBeta]

Thanks for the tips! The belt will of course be replaced soon (already ordered one) it was just a preliminary fix to see if it worked any better with it. I think the signal that comes from the datasette is digital so it will probably sound quite crappy but should be sufficient to adjust the speed. I will lubricate the capstan shaft a bit more thoroughly when I revisit it as well.

[@anaguerrero8988]

is d64 i need the tap to put inside the tape.

[@JanBeta]

You can load the file and save it to a tap (in an emulator if you want) with the BASIC commands.

[@matteobarzaghi5482]

does anyone know why when I press the "REC" key it is stuck? I have two datasettas and in both of them the same problem occurs

[@pablofederico1978]

I also have a dataset and I did not had any tapes to test my commodore, so I use an app in my phone, the name is tap dancer, and then you can download the images from www_c64_com and record the tape using any casette deck in your music player (if you still have one with casette deck). You shoud change that belt. And if you want to lubricate some drived puley, you need to put the oil in the botton of the puley, not in the top, you put oil in the top of a puley when the puley no need to turn the rod axis.

[@JanBeta]

+Pablo Federico Oh, I actually have TapDancer installed already for use with my ZX Spectrum. Thanks for reminding me! Going to try that. I have ordered a belt and will review the lubrication in the next datasette video. :)

[@Yoritomo3800]

Be really careful when using a smaller belt, as it will over constraint the bearing of the motor, and make it's life shorter.

[@HuntersMoon78]

I load tape games the lazy way - I press shift lock, run stop then shift lock again

[@JanBeta]

+0Dark30 The one finger method. Nice. 😂

[@jeffnay6502]

When I load this program, I notice a large blank area under 5. Where the lines would be, if I could see them.

[@IanRomanick]

Are you on an NTSC C64? As far as I can tell, it is not compatible with NTSC. I tried on both a C64 breadbin and a C128 in C64 mode.

[@DropDeadFrederick]

I may be wrong but one of the op-amps probably may be faulty and it's failing to read some tapes depending on the signal strength of the recording. www.devili.iki.fi/Computers/Commodore/C2N/Service_Manual/page_17.html The schematic says that it's from Panasonic, but Texas Instruments makes some functional equivalents. www.datasheets360.com/part/detail/an6562/-4605807808292130825/?alternatePartManufacturerId=0 Then again there's two 46uf 10v electrolytic caps (C6 and C7) that look like they're tied to Vcc in on the op-amps. It's a long shot but if they're bad they could be causing the problem too.

[@JanBeta]

Thanks for the info and the links! I will definitely take a closer look at the electronics side of things in the follow-up video. :)

[@DropDeadFrederick]

Why aren't you just a ray of sunshine.

[@JanBeta]

I've encountered OP AMPs before that started outputting random noise when they began to fail so I think it's a valid point to check that if all else fails.

[@davidegalliussi1979]

do you connect in s-video to the monitor?

[@JanBeta]

+davide galliussi No, it's just composite. The 8833-II I have is the version with only RGB and composite in unfortunately. The picture quality is quite good still.

[@BlackGymkhana]

Lubricant drops tike that completely useless. All you have to do is to clean heads and fix azimuth.

[@JanBeta]

Yes, I learned that now. There's a follow up video to this one with better work and more success in the end.

[@discoHR]

Bad tapes, most likely. Either that or the CIA has intermittent fault (check with diagnostics cartridge with harness such as ‎Thomas Müller‎'s Check64).

[@JanBeta]

Maybe the tapes really are bad. It irritates me that they sometimes loaded the games nearly to the end. I'll try it again with my C64C to rule out a CIA fault. Thanks for the tips. :)

[@danielgow6688]

Watching paint dry

[@TheSocialGamer]

Does this drive work on the C128 in C64 mode? The Drive I have doesn't have the model number sticker anymore. But I posted an image of the drive I have ---> twitter.com/TheSocialGamer/status/1101919688446091265?s=20

[@KalingaAthulathmudali]

1. you never put lubricant to tape mechanism like that 2. never pull and stretch belts like that best you would do some researching on tape mecanisums

[@JanBeta]

Oh, I'm obviously not a professional on tape mechanisms. How would I go about lubricating it to do it right? As for the belt, this was only a preliminary fix with a used belt I had lying around. It's not the right size at all anyway and I have a new one ordered.

[@GaryKildall]

A friend had a noisy bassdrum and I asked him can you put some oil in the pedal. But he told me bassdrum pedals may not have oil, only grease. After that no more squeezing noises in the pedal. But for example for a door lock somethonk graphite based should be used. But I know that I first have to look and ask before wanting to rubbing it in.

[@JanBeta]

It's silicon based spray, so it at least won't detetiorate the plastics as far as I know. I have some silicone grease here as well. I'll try to use that when I get to the datasette the next time.

[@KalingaAthulathmudali]

in terms of the belt, if the belt is too tight, it will slow down the motor. to replace the belt, run a string around the pulleys where the belt would normally goes, then measure the length and order a new, the best don't need to be really tight. tape mechanisms in generally don't need lubrication, when they do, they need oil (specific type) not grease or silicon. few things you did wrong was. 1. spraying on top of the motor pulley, this dont make any sense as top of the pulley don't need lubrications as the pulley is pressure fit to the motor shaft. if it did need lubrications it would be under the pulley where the motor shaft meets the bearing. 2. spraying into the take up reel take up reals should never be lubricated as they comes with clutches inside, when you lubricate it would make the clutch slip and even where out in time.

[@JanBeta]

+Kalinga Athulathmudali Ah, thank you for your detailed tips! Makes sense. The way I lubricated it didn't do any good at all. I ordered a new belt that should fit better. I will take your tips into account when I revisit the datasette.

[@fulano1969]

Don't take this as a negative comment, but you say "I guess" way too much on your videos.

[@JanBeta]

Oh, I know. Working on it. Seems to be my subconscious'' favorite word... (A friend of mine actually suggested making this a drinking game a while ago...)

[@horlixs]

Hi i have the same issue except it will not work atall. I tried to adjust alignment blind over a couple of hours but now its dead. How can i get the head alignment software on a floppy? I have no means to make one. I know my floppy drive works as thats all i can use. Do you know where i can get the floppy version of the head alignment software?

[@JanBeta]

Given you are not too far away (I'm in Germany) I could send you a disk if you pay for shipping. Send me an email if interested (and you can't find any source nearby): thejanbeta at gmail.com