Comparing Boss Health and Damage Before & After The Final Shape

Boss damage: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Boss health: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
One of my more technical videos in recent times, this time talking about anything and everything to do with boss health, modifiers, and damage values coming out of the TFS patch. And of course, special thanks to everyone who helped me test boss health.
Projects folder: drive.google.com/drive/folder...
Twitch: / theaegisrelic
Twitter: / theaegisrelic
Speedrun server: / discord
Personal server: / discord
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
01:11 Spreadsheet updates
05:35 Archetype DPS
10:28 TFS damage changes
16:55 1950 rPL standardization
17:57 Riven/Morgeth crit
19:15 Oryx crit
20:51 Witness/Herald modifiers
21:25 Caretaker scalar
22:08 Atraks crit
23:16 Kell Echo wipe screen
24:33 Caiatl crit
26:00 Boss health methodology
28:37 Atraks crit methodology
29:53 DDT final stand/divider testing
33:21 TFS effective health changes
38:07 Outro

[@JryX]

Man even went out of his way to acknowledge the correct pronunciation of Ergo Sum. Damn, he really is the GOAT

[@tomekk.1889]

I'm surprised more people don't know how to pronounce it. It's a pretty popular quote

[@Henry12151]

@@tomekk.1889 I'm sure everyone knows of the quote but I doubt most have actually HEARD it

[@Destinyingamephisics]

I think, therefore I am: cogito, ergo sum

[@Urbanjeffery]

​@@Destinyingamephisics *tips fedora*

[@Urbanjeffery]

​@@tomekk.1889 because people don't care

[@joshuarubio2864]

I don’t think I have the words to describe how much I respect aegis for doing this, not only once but twice

[@paul2725]

i think dungeon boss health should be increased even more, especially in master, you should really put in work for your 56 statroll artifice armor

[@greenlukesky4615]

Seriously like it’s too easy and the drops are way too generous

[@irishhercules9972]

You put some respect on Gahlran, gosh dang it.

[@disbled]

They should at least double it. 1 hour solo flawless dungeons are way too short!

[@lemontonk]

No way. It’s just artificial difficulty that makes the fights less fun. Master i guess whatever but definitely not in normal mode.

[@lemontonk]

@@disbled this is a joke right? 💀

[@CassberrySauce]

This video is so polarizing, because on one hand it has a lot of awesome work and data in it, on the other hand bungies methods for balance and numbers implementation feels like cursed knowledge 💀. I hope they keep trying to clean this up.

[@sauceinmyface9302]

It's definitely messy and cursed, but this is a huge step in the right direction. Before, morgeth would take 12k per shot from xenophage, while gahlran took 31k per shot. Now, they both take exactly the same damage, so we can compare bosses to each other a lot more easily.

[@DoctorSmock]

Aegis, a living Destiny legend. Love seeing your videos in my feed!

[@bawitdaba1337]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="2270">37:50</a> Most of those raid bosses that have increased health were all included in Pantheon

[@Lookout1000]

Well except the worst offender here, Crota

[@meateaw]

And the 2 duality bosses definitely weren't in the pantheon :)

[@yourbrojohno]

​@@Lookout1000 He was in week 5 pantheon. 2nd to last boss. Idk why everyone just quit at week 4 cause bungie didn't make ppl do week 5 for title.

[@Lookout1000]

@@yourbrojohno bait

[@Blanktester685]

@@Lookout1000 nah hes telling the truth on week 5 they added crota and taniks

[@ih197]

I’m downloading this form my plane ride in 20 minutes. I’ve been waiting for this video for weeks!

[@pain.1901]

If anyone remembers the disappointment that was the wild style double fire nightfall breech GL, it now gets reconstruction and bait as of this episode

[@spectre7195]

bro knows more about the game than any bungie employee

[@dylanmiller1140]

I worry people actually think this

[@austinklaas8866]

​@dylanmiller1140 yes and no the devs obviously know more over all. But that being said there's a reason developers pay gametesters to play thier game. this comming from somone that has done it

[@degenerativewalnut9079]

I’m still shocked that the caretaker has the most HP (pre TFS)

[@TheAegisRelic]

Not the most effective HP but yeah he has a fair amount

[@disbled]

He has a very weird damage multiplier

[@degenerativewalnut9079]

@@disbled bro was quirky

[@TheInfinityPoint]

With RNG heavy drops he was ass on day 1.

[@rogerorchestry]

Community is lucky to have you providing us with this info. Super grateful.

[@inukiiroi2831]

I just want to say that, ive been playing destiny on and off since around halfway through shadowkeep and i never really looked too much into optimiziation at all despite being really interested in it because it felt like there was no one doing this type of stuff, most content i saw was build videos on whatever the new hot thing was (which is great content, not bashing them), and never looked more into it tbh. Now with salvations edge i saw your contest mode streams and the day 1 builds video, and when i saw the google doc i was FILLED with excitement and i cant say how much i LOVE your content and what you do, everything from the extremely interesting speedrun breakdowns, to damage calculations and conversations about the sandbox have helped me understand this game in a way i never was able to before (because to be quiet frank, d2 does a pretty poor job at giving you pretty significant details) which amplifies my enjoymend hundredfold, thank you so much to you and your team for testing all this data and making it so publicly available for everyone to learn and partake! Videos like these are so extremely exciting and interesting and i always felt like i would never be able to have this experience in d2 until i found your channel. Keep up the AMAZING work!

[@TheAegisRelic]

[@Savage-Destiny]

Thanks so much for doing your testing, it’s so valuable to have one solid reference to go to that has trustable statistics. Keep up the great work!

[@spectre7195]

wait tlord is 3% above the baseline?? its meta again boys

[@Dayssbefore]

Wow! As always, this is an incredible video! Thank you for putting all the time and effort into tracking all these stats.

[@kings_4099]

needed this to get through work thanks aegis

[@liammackey961]

The level of detail you put into this is insane. Aspiring to your level of dedication

[@panzerkitti1212]

finally, great work you one of a kind to do this community research for us big love

[@grunkbigrock5135]

Best D2 KZbinr out there. The information you put out is amazing, and there is no bullshit just straight to the point. Love the vids thanks for the info

[@RoyaltonDrummer922]

This is some seriously impressive spreadsheeting and statistics

[@user-hz6nu5nk5w]

you are awesome, its insane work

[@ahawkone8850]

It's a lot to take in all at once for me, so I'm only about halfway through. I appreciate you coming back and correcting things, and explaining what you change and why. Things like the crit modifier for Riven and stuff like that. Also just thanks again for the work you and your helpers put into making these resources for the rest of us!

[@za8186]

freaky

[@OZ23232]

Exactly what i needed. Thank you so much!

[@iESCAP1SM]

Looking forward to the Ergo Sum video! Hard addict for those drops

[@nigelvillafana1773]

Im really impressed on how much i learned in this video

[@jayus666]

He came back when we needed him most. Thanks you Aegis.

[@Shadoefeenicks]

Thank you for your work

[@AntonLFG]

I could listen to Aegis talk about numbers for hours.

[@mrmaxmondays]

If you watch the video on 0.5x speed you can:D

[@Cauliy]

Yay!!!!! The equipment tab is something I lived by last season

[@hend0wski]

caitl's back is literally a heat vent

[@nytrix9406]

we do love a data heavy yap video :D

[@kjcq5359]

Thanks for sharing ! You are the best

[@ypcomchic]

I would think testing different seasons would be hard due to artifact mods and surges so kudos to you for doing this!

[@UncleBucket]

This is complete conjecture, but my guess as to why damage values for Kell Echo is doubled might have to do with the fact that you are teleported to an entirely separate area during the fight. When this happens, its not uncommon for devs to make a copy of the boss thats present in both areas instead of moving a single one back and forth. Then you just link the two together so that any damage dealt to one is dealt to the other, effectively doubling your damage dealt.

[@Astyrical]

those runs were fire

[@KingLeaps]

Before finishing the video, I pray the GotD bosses aren’t too much worse.

[@lordgrub12345]

prolly not since it is a recent dungeon

[@S-TierIguess]

Microcosm turns GOTD easy mode as they can break shields fast

[@disbled]

GotD will always be terrible 😢

[@rickblackburn5233]

@@S-TierIguessarbalest breaks them in one shot

[@andrewberger3110]

@@rickblackburn5233 it takes 2 shots now :(

[@moxxer1289]

this is so awesome

[@Vance5th]

That's my GOAT

[@Kanudee]

you are the goat

[@art7373]

Woohoo, Aegis upload

[@huebackfisch4988]

Bread🍞

[@shaunmacready701]

The damage testing versoin of esoterickk. Both legends ❤

[@DamianPalmos-ml9kq]

I got so exited when i saw this vid😂

[@Marina-bc2dc]

i think i love you vro :3

[@sylokthedefiled7650]

Id really like to see aggressive frame fusion in the reference tab. You mention that its to see how baseline weapons perform and which weapon types may be underrepresented due to bad perks around the <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="600">10:00</a> mark I have had a feeling for years that aggressive frame fusions are a good archetype held back by the only entry having the worst perk pool in the franchise and I really want to see if I should keeo advocating for another aggressive frame fusion (or a europa perk refresh)

[@TheAegisRelic]

I'm too lazy to grind for one lowkey but if someone has one with Accel I'll have them join me to get numbers haha

[@sylokthedefiled7650]

@@TheAegisRelic good to hear. I as the only Coriolis force enjoyer am dying for some retribution.

[@Crembaw]

Re: effective health, imo the most parsimonious answer is that they applied the weapon changes and normalization, and then tested each one for ‘feel’ and adjusted them individually up or down to make the raid’s difficulty come more from doing the encounter correctly/safely than from having to readjust your entire damage strategy just to shred the boss. But I might be misunderstanding the discrepancy.

[@TheAegisRelic]

Maybe! I'm not sure if they went in and tweaked boss health beacuse that's something they have never done before IIRC

[@chaosuwo]

U should probably start linking your stream labs tip page or a way to give you something at the end of your video or in the description, you don't have to mention it but just like leave it somewhere easy to see :)

[@TheAegisRelic]

I might but the description is already pretty dense haha

[@tatsatatsa]

Thank you vog shield

[@AnzeohRobinson]

When you single-handedly do 10 mil to Croat but your team still wipes😭😭😭😭😭

[@oldsaddad7274]

Not my homie croat

[@DFH02]

Blud is egoing his lfgs even on youtube comments ain't no way

[@flingza1798]

Speaking of ergo sum I've been using this aggressive frame arc conductor roll that i got, on herald and it's putting out a pretty consistent 2mill per damage phase

[@Sugareppo]

About a-traks, I think you can deal precision damage to kill its clone, but the damage got transferred to the health bar count as a body shot damage.

[@TheAegisRelic]

Perhaps, but there was a linear trend that continued even after the clone broke

[@Real28]

As a Data Engineer, this whole thing is screaming to be put into a database and then have a front end like PowerBi run over the top. Similar to how D2Foundry dynamically adjust data based on inputs but with even more data.

[@TheAegisRelic]

Some people have sent me towards PowerBI recently, I might check it out and integrate it into a website or something some day!

[@xFearing]

I believe in some patch (maybe in s15??) they increased kell echo health without increasing time to kill. I can remember kell used to have 3.5 mil and they buffed it to 7m, which would account for the 2x wipe screen damage. Does anyone else remember this?

[@darthnater6204]

A fun thing to think about is how would witness be with the old changes

[@lucastravers415]

Right! 🗣

[@lazykb]

They call him the Aegis Goat

[@Gaffroninja]

I wonder if the massively increased health pool for Crota was to compensate for sword buffs? That being said if this is the case it would just nerf any other strategy to be even worse compared to swords than they already were. Not sure if I feel that negatively about the change though, just going to use Swords anyway

[@thecanadiankiwibirb4512]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1075">17:55</a> this is some arcane knowledge type shit

[@mrabdllah1]

Sheet is out! bungie devs can finally start balancing.

[@connorboyle3027]

Aegis, I don’t see anyone talking about how Ergo Sum gives Wolfpack rounds to rocket launchers as well as swords. Not sure how it changes team rotations but I know for solo players it lets their rockets do more damage

[@AsianSadge]

Bro points out how this video is a yap session like that isn’t the sole reason I watch your videos

[@kazywazynem]

Keaton approved

[@amarioguy]

Warlord's Ruin seems to be weird with rPL changes compared to normal dungeons, it seems to be using the power level disabled settings while not explicitly stating it for normal mode (if you look at combatant difficulty where the power cap is stated, it seems to be set to -1 power instead of 1945) EDIT: the -1 is visual it's the same rPL as other dungeons, though keep in mind that other tuning settings could be different from other dungeons

[@andrewberger3110]

ive noticed this too, wonder if its just a visual bug with the HUD or if power level is actually -1

[@amarioguy]

@@andrewberger3110 it's visual, i just confirmed that WR is the same power cap as other dungeons at 1945 although i will say that it might still be using some tuning from the power disabled activities but that would be a bug

[@stephenbean1264]

Do the effective health changes apply to Master as well? or since those had higher Recommended Power then not as much??

[@MrTrombonejr]

How has anyone disliked this

[@evstar14]

So I've always believed that atrax gets a baked in damage multiplier while he's disappearing. So that's why people say to use your higher damage weapon second since shes disappearing and will have a damage multiplier. Is this not true?

[@curiruri]

Now that you have a following would you be able to crowd source rolls for testing, to save a bit of grind time?

[@TheAegisRelic]

For Ergo? I plan on it, I'll need to for 5 man scaling

[@mexicanwithahat6064]

If they dont revert the -5 i dont see a lot of raiders coming back

[@sniperx999x]

Hey Aegis, have you ever tested if the pre- and during final stand health per pixel is the same? Ive always been curious if some bosses have extra health during FS that make it look like you're closer to finishing than you actually are.

[@TheAegisRelic]

I believe it is but I can investigate further in the future

[@Zorrose002]

the only thing i did to contribute was run lw with you and give you the morgeth dmg number cuz you forget to write them down o7

[@turncoat8827]

What music did you use for the background? It sounds really pleasant to listen to.

[@TheAegisRelic]

It's random no copyright chill music lol

[@lzzv]

sanctified nearly having 10 mill is criminal. gg to garden farms

[@RafaelHipolit0]

I believe part of the answer is how much we could overlevel each activity. For example Crota was a 1790 power boss (death screen). GotD final boss was a 1810 power boss. While legacy content, such as Oryx or Rhulk was a 1600 boss. I believe legacy content allowed a higher power advantage than non legacy content. Now everything is 1950 and the power deficit is the same for all activities.

[@TheAegisRelic]

I accounted for that, it doesn't explain why there's such a huge discrepancy between certain bosses, so I'm still not sure why

[@RTB1400]

Algo bump comment. Now back to the video.

[@skywarrior4656]

Whenever you're damaging a boss, there's a numerical boss HP along with %'s under its HP bar. That's is updating in almost real time in the video. Did you edit that in manually as part of research gathering, or is that happening actually real time?

[@andrewberger3110]

its a 3rd party app that he uses for dmg testing, the same one he talks about in the video

[@jt2aw15]

testing methodology changes should really be mentioned in the sheet somewhere if they aren't already i 100% would have though shotguns got buffed if i didn't have this on in the background while doing other work

[@jt2aw15]

a comment on the cell like for riven would be perfect

[@richardcarson3596]

The anecdotes of feeling like bosses have more health turned out to be true. Great video once again.

[@Konnerading]

Do atracks and caretaker have different health depending on how fast you do or dont kill them. Since thresholds dont count as hp. Do the additional thresholds of not one phasing atracks or caretaker actually reduce hp.

[@TheAegisRelic]

Thresholds do count as part of the HP bar, neither of those bosses regen health any more every cycle

[@TheDiver3]

Kind of a stupid question but i get easily lost in very well done spreadsheets like this, but is there a tab that has a pound for pound best dps method for each boss for each class? Strange question yeah i know but I figured id ask

[@meateaw]

He explained in the video it used to, but it needs updating so he cleared it out because all the old rotations were now inaccurate.

[@TheDiver3]

@@meateaw Yeah no you're right, I made the comment too early into the video and was too lazy to edit or delete it lol :p

[@simondepass]

Bro I'm not gonna lie when you broke out the calculator clapping 👏 monkey's 🐒 might aswell been on the screen as them huge numbers went over my head 😅

[@alexarhire4254]

On root 2-3 skip when you get at the secret chest room what is the best spot to skate from because the slammer has to much speed and so you can't skate from on top of it unless you hit a specific angle so it s not rly that consistent

[@isaacbee1]

Do Atraks, Caretaker, and/or Explicator take different amounts of damage if you go past their threshold?

[@TheAegisRelic]

Yes (+15%), yes (-~22%), no(?)

[@carnage9536]

What lead you to come up with your username and pfp?

[@TheAegisRelic]

I'm pretty sure it was because I really liked the Aegislash Pokemon growing up and I looked up the word and was like, huh, that's a cool word The profile picture is just the relic from VoG, since people kept asking if I got my name from that, and a bunch of PC hardware in the background, since I used to help people with computer hardware stuff before D2

[@Nevan_Nedall]

Hey Aegis, when I try to make copies of your spreadsheets, it tells me I need access. I've never experienced this before, I'm not really sure if it's something on your end or not but figured I'd say something, its been happening for a while now and I just assumed you didn't want it being copied.

[@Eli.D2]

❤

[@RaisinsDoesDestiny]

Yes

[@dredgenpizza]

Crota xeno damage is less in tfs yet boss health up by 34% is just inexplicable

[@williambutler6558]

is bastion really down that far even having received trench barrel(ish)? I have to imagine that outweighs the kinetic nerfs.

[@life-destiny1196]

On the Reference tab, that's perkless, so no, that has nothing to do with the new perks it got.

[@SNSCoastal]

🙏

[@aztrofem]

Oh god what have you done now people are gonna use queenbreaker

[@aspire8388]

hello gongeous🤤

[@Swup]

i haven’t touched the game since before final shape, i have so much to catch up on. thank god im a pvp player😂😢

[@itzvast4610]

40 minute video made me jump up and down while clapping

[@chemicalcretin139]

So i should be telling people not to use crit weapons on atraks

[@redsix5165]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1705">28:25</a> i would instead divide cumulative damage by % pixels gone for each row to see how much variation there is in estimated total boss health. Eg compare mean to the last xeno shot. Or take out a few early shots to calc mean. I dont think a regression analysis is the tool to use

[@redsix5165]

In case its not obvious, a graph of what I am proposing should like a horizontal line

[@SlimeyZockt]

For Riven and Oryx, if the Crit is somewhat unreliable (for testing) then why not shoot their fingies?

[@TheAegisRelic]

For Riven I did! That was just for crit multiplier testing. As for Oryx, I suppose I could have lol

[@mexicanwithahat6064]

Atrax is a weird hp bar, if you talk to a hacker you can do millions of damage of health to him solo and his hp bar will barely move. I dont think its a crit damage thing i think its relevant to how many people are damaging and what they're damaging him with as to what turns into real damage.

[@jigglyhamburgers9366]

Are there any ergo rolls that you need? I and I’m sure others would be willing to share my account for some numbers.

[@TheAegisRelic]

Yeah I'll let people know once testing starts

[@redsix5165]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1900">31:40</a> it would be more logical to assume that you did 5/6 of her health. 83.3%. I believe each boss has the same size health bar on screen, so any white dividers are likely throwing off the math.

[@Broganshire]

Commento for the Algo