Comparing the Rider-Waite Smith and Thoth Tarot decks

A.E. Waite and Aleister Crowley were members of the Golden Dawn secret society, so we have to understand that as a member of the Golden Dawn you cannot give away 'secrets' in your tarot deck. Waite kept his Order Vows, while Crowley published secrets.
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[@MrJosephFrank]

I disagree with your view on the Rider-Waite-Smith not having any "secrets". While I can't say that Crowley put less hidden meanings at Thoth, RWS is full of symbols and philosophical images which are not least obvious to the average person that sees it. Thanks!

[@Anton_the_Vampire]

You know, the more I watch devotees of Thoth & Crowley tear chunks out of A.E.Waite and the RWS deck the more I realise that Thoth was designed to be for the select few, & required a mindset holding up Crowley as a God. The general motto of Thoth seems to be "if you don't understand it, then you've not worked hard enough!" Is that REALLY what the Tarot is about? Making it as hard as possible to learn, so only an Inner Sanctum of initiates & arrogant Masters can claim control of it?

[@pillarsoflight2607]

Nicely put! 👍🏻

[@trismegistus9623]

Naw. Crowley a deck is more powerful because of the symbolism. His cards draw out more meanings because of the illustrations. Waite is a good deck for beginners. People who want the basic info and meanings of the cards. Once you learn Waite, you can use any tarot deck.

[@DeeSee77]

Frieda Lady Harris had almost as much contribution into the deck as Crowley did towards the end of the process.

[@citizentuck]

That's just this fellow not thoth in general

[@j0eX]

Pamela Coleman-Smith was a member of the Order of the Golden Dawn. She was introduced to the Order by W.B. Yeats, in 1901. I don't remember her Motto, but she had one. Some of what you are saying is nothing but your opinion. According to a new book "The Story of the Waite-Smith Tarot" she had more to do with the designs than previously thought. Thoth deck is a work of genius, but very tied to Crowley's path.

[@GGeorgeSII]

i thought smith was part of the golden dawn...

[@pillarsoflight2607]

It is. He's just taking blows at it, because he's a "devotee to the book of Thoth".

[@KO-vp5tg]

Pamela Colman Smith joined the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn in 1901, this is how she became acquainted with Waite who commissioned her to draw the cards 8 years later in 1909. Paul's portrayal of Smith as someone with no knowledge or interest in tarot prior to her work on the tarot deck is false. Paul's library looks rather thin from the video, maybe thats the reason for him being very opinionated & not being properly informed.

[@ITRiBUTEI]

@8 bit synth I'm interested. Can you give a few examples of the purposeful misguide

[@DerekHunterDHChaosRiddler]

Thanks, Paul, very informative in a short period of time. I use Crowley's Thoth deck for divination and find it much more rewarding than the Rider-Waite (and the Marseille). I have a feeling in the next 100 years Crowley - not just the Tarot but in his other writings and explorations as well - will gain in reputation and recognition. Crowley himself predicted that his accomplishments would take a long time to be appreciated.

[@pillarsoflight2607]

As long as both decks can provide its holder the wisdom they are seeking, be it esoteric, or non, then there's no comparison. The book of Thoth is a far more 'illuminated' variant of the RWS, while the RWS is more digestible in its approach, though it still yields similar esoteric philosophy.

[@S30Uploads]

i found a rider tarot deck at goodwill for 2 bucks, 1971 =)

[@PaulHughesBarlow1]

Hi! Crowley never changed the order of the Hebrew alphabet. He and Waite followed the Golden Dawn in tranposing the Strength and Justice cards, and later Crowley transposed the Emperor and Star cards, but he never changed the alphabet

[@thespiritworldawaits6244]

Brilliant Paul thanks ...just getting into the Thoth deck and having a lot of late nights figureing it out. Your Vids are helping a lot.

[@pygmygodeus9450]

Excellent lecture-thank you. I, too, think Lady Frieda Harris (the artist, after all!) gets short shrift for her contribution to the Thoth deck. It’s clear she had her own system of visual symbols that convey meaning and feeling-for example, her use of the disordered whirligig shapes in the backgrounds of many conflict cards give them a mood of struggle, mental confusion, or rapid change. Yet the same figure conveys logic and cerebral thought in other cards, because in those, she draws the shape with great control and precision. This deck is beautiful and profound. The detail and many visual references to myth and symbolism gives the cards layered meanings, making them perfect for in-depth meditations and readings. As you say, it also requires study! I don’t hate the Smith-Waite deck but I’ve come to prefer the Thoth. For many years, it was the other way around.

[@PaulHughesBarlow1]

Frieda Harris was already familiar with the complexities of Freemasonry symbolism through the tracing boards she designed

[@pygmygodeus9450]

Fascinating! I am so curious about Frieda Harris. Frankly, I think the artists of both decks contributed substantially more than the men who claimed credit for the decks’ designs. It likely that these women’s contributions were discounted *because* they were women-the time periods in which they worked were paternalistic and dismissive of women in general.

[@christygrattan6847]

It was my understanding that Pamela Coleman Smith was indeed a member of the Golden Dawn, which was notable as being amongst the first fraternal bodies to allow women, particularly women of colour, so I think representing her as a blindfolded brush for hire doesn’t do her justice - especially since Waite’s language skills were grossly exaggerated by him, and much translation was dome by junior CofE clerics who frequently had no idea what they were working on, with him taking much of the credit. As much as we owe him a debt, on a personal level I’m suspicious of him and wonder to what extent he was responsible for sidelining Smith. There’s no evidence equally that Frieda Harris had any kind of title. I think she had a relationship with one or more of the Aristocracy and continued to style herself ‘Lady Harris’ regardless. Anyway, even the name Rider-Waite completely whitewashes PCS out of her own work, so I make a point of calling it the Waite-Smith deck. Josephine McCarthy talks in depth about the contributions of PCS to the tarot in her Glitch Bottle Podcast episode ‘Tarot and the Grindstone’. I think it’s worthwhile to identify and unmask the racism and other factors at play in the story of ‘the occult’ we tell so as to make it a more approachable path for the diversity of those drawn to it. Interestingly, for anyone in London, the basement of Treadwells Bookshop contains Pamela Coleman Smith’s fireplace where she (i think) painted the original images for the deck. I second the comment wanting to know more about the masonic content in the minor cards, that sounds fascinating! Thank you Paul for all your work, it has deeply enriched my understanding of the tarot and my ability to read ‘between the cards’!

[@christygrattan6847]

Just to clarify I didn’t mean to imply you were racist, but rather that the narratives we inherit have all the trappings of their era both good and bad woven into them and so shouldn’t be accepted prima facie.

[@PaulHughesBarlow1]

Reading between the cards is a powerful skill... I assumed PCS was white when making the video, but that appears not to be the case. Both Frieda Harris and PCS were chosen for their artistic skills and sensitivity to the subject. Nevertheless the heirarchy takes precedence irrespective of the artists being women - both Waite and Crowley were heads of their own organisations. I think Frieda Harris commanded more respect from Crowley than most of the other women in his life. The needs of modern marketing mean that the relationship between Creator and Artist has been inverted, so now we have style over content.

[@metronomic1]

The Thoth deck is a thousand times superior to the Waite. Say what you want about Crowley but for all his faults he was attuned to a magickal current like no one else before of after him.

[@mysticalgod9782]

"…before or after him", are you sure?

[@Kaptnkrnch]

Agreed.

[@thrashcore44]

Paul you are one of my tarot inspirations u have tought me so much about the thoth deck and crowley thank you very much

[@adocentyn9028]

Interesting take. Crowley had a genius-mind. Very informative vid. Thx

[@SandiFromOz]

Is Smith not being in the Golden Dawn your only reasoning for why Rider Waite is for the riff raff? Despite its richness in symbology, which one doesn't need to be a member of a secret or otherwise society to understand? Imo RW is a great beginners deck that if one resonates with, can benefit the tarot reader immensely, for many years, after all tarot reading is about ones own connection to it, which facilitates messages to the deeper pysche.. I have many decks and they all are wonderfully useful in their own ways.

[@saintbabylon7250]

I agree with your comment on how each deck is usefull in it's own way as much as I believe people opinion on which deck is preferable is subjective. I honestly am still in the beginning stage of reading & went straight towards the Thoth deck. Mainly because it's a beautiful deck & it caught my attention the most. I felt for someone like me it's a fine deck to start of with & since I already have a strong interest in that deck it's not as over whelming as it's made out to be. I feel if I can work with that deck I'll have no probelms using other decks if I ever feel the need to.

[@SandiFromOz]

+through yourlover I've only just started working with the Thoth deck. I bought both Crowleys Thoth book and the one by DuQuette to help with interpreting Crowley's book. I find the imagery on the Thoth deck to sometimes be understated in the sense that symbols are sometimes small and pale coloured resulting in me buying a magnifying glass lol. How are you going with learning, understanding and reading the tarot? I started with the tarot 35 years ago, but not all that time has been intense by any means, actually started with Classic Tarot deck by Kaplan, which doesn't have images on the minor cards. It was many years before I got my second deck which was Rider Waite. And then bought others with Thot being very recent. It's a fascinating passtime.

[@catv9085]

Just more arrogant wankery from the overgrown fratboys who make up the ceremonial magic world. This is why I could never get into any of the Western esoteric fields: it's filled with ignorant assholes with egos too big to fit through the door. They spend more time preening than they spend actually doing magic. What's really funny about this is that he's actually wrong; Smith had been a member of Golden Dawn for a decade by the time she made that deck. So much for her being "ignorant." He's also wrong that Waite contributed anything substantial to its creation. Smith did pretty much everything, but as usual in the ceremonial magic world, a spoiled white boy stole the credit.

[@iva9764]

If you knew waite smith deck better, you could've understood that toth and rws are came from exact same tradition of golden dawn. So, is our modern understanding of tarot most closely reassembling the golden dawn tarot tradition and very much throwing away all the other traditions and deleted them completely out of the picture. Yet, other approaches exist and they are too fairly similar to that which we know... this is amazing to me, and just saying that one deck is true tarot is so ridiculous and uninformed

[@PaulHughesBarlow1]

No need to be so defensive. Waite never reveals the GD inspiration in his tarot books. The deck was created to recruit people to his own Order with just enough information to intrigue them so they contact him via the publisher.

[@iva9764]

@@PaulHughesBarlow1 No No i'm not being defensive of anything and anyone. I just have an opinion that even before Maters Crowley and golden-dawn, there was a tradition on which all of them could have been learning and making their own, but it stayed more or less the same, and yes with just a confusion about the astrology, kabbalah, alchemy etc. They took something in took part out but it stayed more or less similar, and understandable from all points of view. It's not the golden dawn who invented tarot cards, but yes their influence is almost is everything that we know about tarot today. But they are not inventors of any part of the tarot, not kabbalah, nor astrology, or alchemy. Waite made a point that its not only about symbols and allegories, but it's about symbolism. his key was a picture a symbolism as an art, and symbolism over symbols trowed around like a garbage vs a picture. Symbolism is not having bunch of symbols thrown around forming allegories. It was a win of symbolism over the old methods.

[@PaulHughesBarlow1]

@@iva9764 one day you will understand symbols and symbolism

[@iva9764]

@@PaulHughesBarlow1 I understand them long time ago. But you will never understand them.

[@iva9764]

@@PaulHughesBarlow1 I understand much more symbols than those of tarot, and you ignored everything that I pointed out.

[@Monkeyland03]

The book 'Modern Magick' by Donald Kraig is the best introduction book on high magick. He goes mostly by the Golden Dawn style. I guess the best introduction to crowleys system of high magick is 'The Magick of Aleister Crowley': A Handbook of the Rituals of Thelema by lon duquette. I don't think he has his own system of the circulation of the body of light.

[@occultvoyager]

Although you're right about the Rider White tarot being a basic deck (They don't have the Elemental, Planetary and Astrological symbols that relate to each card, and none of the Hebrew letters either, where's the Thoth deck does), the pictures of the Crowley deck are multi dimensional by comparison, I disagree with your view of the DuQuette book... It's a superb companion to the Book Of Thoth...

[@Skeetlejuice]

Thanks for the interesting video. I would like to study the cards (not interested in using it as an oracle or what have you) If it is real and it has been obscurred from the dabblers that won't deter me. I find it amusing that people comment that they want to have access to things beyond parlor tricks and suggestion/inference but don't like that it is Difficult or requires intense work and study and even then. In reality I believe that you have to be a real adept or lifelong scholar to "tune in"

[@swbusby]

One cannot speak of the smith-waite deck without reference to the marseilles decks of the late 1600s and early 1700s which it so clearly is based on.

[@pillarsoflight2607]

True, and false. The artist Pamela Coleman also took inspiration from the sola busca tarot. The RWS differs in it's approach to divination in contrast to the earlier decks like Marseille, which wasn't originally made for divination.

[@LookingGlass69]

I don't like the RWS deck mostly because it's ugly. I like the more colourful Thot deck better because it's colourful.

[@jgaunt1]

You are so right, ask Paul Foster Case

[@aeneas2989]

you have missed the mark. DuQuettes book is just fantastic and not once does he diviate from the teaching of the Thoth Tarot. Put his book and The Bool of Thoth together(as he suggests) and you get a complete study. You sir are a mumblipeg.

[@frenchiestarot]

Hi Paul, I was wondering if you could help me out. I’ve had the standard Swiss Thoth deck edition for years, but the size really bothered me as so small which is why I avoided using it. I would really like to buy the largest deck size, and I can see on your table that you have one. Which box and serial number would I need to purchase, as I found it not really to be stated that clear. Thanks

[@PaulHughesBarlow1]

Hi Frenchie, I think there are only three sizes - small medium and large. I use the large for videos on KZbin, and the medium size for readings

[@frenchiestarot]

Paul Hughes-Barlow aww ok thank you, I just get a bit confused. As the US games versions states the green box is standard, but many people call this the large deck. 🤔 I thought the premiere edition was, but then read comments from others that it’s not lol. Unless I just go for the deluxe Swiss one, that’s why I just wanted to know which one you used in your videos thanks

[@IndustrialMilitia]

Sweet, I see a copy of Liber ABA there. 93s Frater

[@Greensacks]

Is there a copy of the Mary Greer talk you mention floating around online?

[@PaulHughesBarlow1]

sorry I don't know, maybe someone else can help?

[@Greensacks]

No problem i'll keep searching anyway.

[@Monkeyland03]

When Alister Crowley put Tzadi and Aries on the Emperor and Heh and Aquarius on The Star it upset the natural hebrew counting system.

[@henrydebellame4883]

Crowley never changed the zodiacal attributions of the Emperor or Star cards, he swapped the Hebrew letters around and tree of life path numbers.

[@PaulHughesBarlow1]

I am sure Lon will reward you

[@blood8379]

I believe poke runyon ti bi scammer hi gott poesit of after reveng aleister crowley secrets of tarot his magic i love crowley

[@clifjayshafer]

Dear Barlow; My I get a reference, either book, video, and/or lecture of the Rider-Waite Minor comparison to Freemasonry? I could not catch the name of the person you spoke of and would like to research this. Thank you.

[@GreenWater414]

@Clif Shafer

[@GGeorgeSII]

well Crowley was a psyco so I'm glad his deck doesn't get enough recognization

[@TheWalkingdude69]

This is absolute twaddle..! There is zero useful info in this. It would probably help you, mr. Hughes-Barlow, to prepare your presentations beforehand with some notes and such based on research and a clear understanding of the subject matter. I defy anyone to explain how this clip would be of use to anyone, except to show yet another way of how not to do stuff. Seriously, man..!

[@PaulHughesBarlow1]

I will get the autocue working next time