Competitive TFT Has a Big Problem

This was a talky video about some of the controversy during Tacticians Trials II and the general TFT competitive format.
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Patch 14.10B
TFT SET 11 Challenger Reroll Guide Teamfight Tactics BEST Comps Beginners Meta Build Ranked Beginners Encounter
#tft #tftset11 #teamfighttactics

[@nagatoakira7962]

maybe name plate need to be hided in competitive games.

[@tekatahk8056]

Not a bad idea

[@SlinkyJinkyStudio]

Think it's more of a bandaid fix, but would definitely help.

[@ASMRTUTS2]

Hided?

[@SlinkyJinkyStudio]

@@ASMRTUTS2 bro meant hidden. People can mispell. It's not grammar class 😂

[@kinOyou]

best advice ever

[@soulylive4555]

Feel like holding the annie 3 is just pure tactical play. He is playing to win the tourney and the chance of that 3rd place knocking a better player out in the future is just 5head. It's literally a tournament which should be the most competitive play for the game, if he was playing with his best interest to win then I see no problem.

[@brodiebaxter99]

Win trading on ladder is also purely tactical but not allowed. I fail to see how this is any different

[@XEpiccatX]

Because there isn't any 'trading' (that we know of) happening. If two players agree to something before or during a game that ruins the integrity of the match, then there's an issue. If one person decides to use their advantage in a way that benefits themselves the most, that's tactical play. If this were the final game of the tournament, and that 1st place person NEEDED kurum to go 3rd in order to win the whole thing, this would 100% be seen as a very smart play to ensure their victory. Not sure why that's any different with lower stakes.

[@Denizel91]

@@brodiebaxter99 Well its not allowed to shoot youre opponent either, but its would be a purely tactical advantage

[@alpacaduke5041]

@@Denizel91 true but you cant win in prison buddy thats why thats n o common strat but yeah yopu could do that and see what happens xd

[@strahinjasimic9598]

@@Denizel91this might be the dumbest response ive ever read

[@thomassteen8317]

that first example, the rulebook spirit is actually anti-collusion, not anti-inting. so if they are acting on their own without collusion, its fine. Game integrity would have to be seperately defined or stated. Think how vietnam was caught last set for their collusion, thats what its trying to stop.

[@vienkyngo5184]

This is a NON ISSUE. The term "griefing" is a term from League and other TEAM based games used to describe a player that is "griefing" or purposely making HIS OWN TEAM lose. You would NOT use griefing to describe a player doing everything he can we make his OPPONENTS lose/do worse. TFT is a 1v7 game where EVERYONE IS YOUR OPPONENT. You cannot grief in TFT where everyone is your opponent and no one is your teammate, except in the case of collusion which in the first case was not collusion. The Annie 3 player simply did everything he can to make sure his opponents would lose/do worse but he did not simply think of it in just that one match. He strategized with the WHOLE TOURNAMENT in mind. By benching his Annie 3 for this match he guarantees that Kurumx(his OPPONENT that he believes to be a strong player) will get a lower score and therefore, possibility, allow him to place higher on the scoreboard ahead of Kurumx. This player gigabrained with the whole tournament in mind and this strategy will be something that every pro player going forward will be utilizing. Think of your placing the whole tournament, not just that one match. Kurumx is justified in feeling frustrated because he's getting the short end of the stick but the other player is not doing anything illegal or against the rule. Kurumx only has himself to blame for not being in a better position in this match and allowing a player to hit Annie 3.

[@icecreamemperor]

Mostly this. Collusion requires multiple players conspiring together to benefit only one of those players; i.e. playing an individual game as though it were a team game. This creates actual advantages for the group over people competing as individuals, and is therefore potentially a big problem. I don't know if I agree that it's a non-issue, but it's definitely not collusion. I think the larger issue is one of reputation and weird social currency/clout issues resulting in a skewed application of the logic involved, so that better-known (rather than better) players have these sort of (pretty dubious) strategies deployed against them, even in round 1 of a tournament.

[@ppoverheat6223]

I agree that that should be fine since he did it in order to win the tourney. But what about the situation with rain? The guy griefed his own game and went 8th because he wanted to target grief her. He wasn’t playing to win, he was playing to bring her down. In league, griefing would never happen in a tourney as you don’t have an advantage in making your team lose ever. A bit unfortunate it can be done in tft. I still agree with your main point tho

[@sam.0021]

Hard agree about the ending bit. I don't understand the point of allowing such a drastic skill disparity to exist. Basically the first 2 days are spent eliminating all the people that should have never been eligible in the first place. You could easily restrict the tournament to the people that have a reasonable chance at competing in it and then spread them out over 2 days to get a larger sample. No weekdays, no slog, good competition.

[@Hazen87]

It's not against the rules to play the brackets.

[@loudpackgeneral2496]

I don't think the rain thing was collusion I'd bet he just felt like she griefed him in a game prior during the tourney and wanted revenge. You end up in the same lobby as people a lot over the course of a tourny and it is super tilting when someone contests you on rerolls.

[@GamingEnjoyer13]

I feel the #2 is the trickiest one, you could say they just need to flex since contesting happens at all levels of play. She could flex into Lillia Sages, shitty maybe but if we say that contesting is bannable then most of the ladder would end up being banned.

[@Xhandel]

My opinion on the annie 3 case, the dude was not griefing, the dude was seriously trying to win the game AND the tourney by knocking out a strong player, its was in a very nasty way, but it was on his behalf. Is not like the players that, after scouting someone playing fortune, grieff themselves by not buying units or selling all of them just to make the fortune player lose his streak, even if that means the griefing player ends 8th, thats the thing that should be penalized.

[@jameswright21]

If the player in the first clip did it entirely of his own volition, it's hard to say he can't. If he were to make it into the next stage by a single point of Kurum you'd be able to point to this exact moment as a great move. The question becomes how do you limit the ripple effects that might have in later tournaments, and obviously taking nameplates off is the easiest way and just say that if you stream and give away it's you then that's your prerogative. The most similar thing I see in sports is when brackets of next rounds are decided and a team might lose one game to manipulate where they go into the bracket. The sniper ahri is whatever, the player is probably aware they are outmatched and need to do something a bit whacky to make any impact. I don't even think you can call that trolling, if anything that might be the smart play. The last one is outright cheating and clearly against the integrity of the game and should get a lifetime ban. I don't see what can be done to stop it outside of not having the general public participate, and it sucks to suffer for it.

[@brodiebaxter99]

I think my concern personally is more about the precedent it sets to allow targeted griefing "because it's tactical". Let me pose a hypothetical of how this ruling could be abused: Your favorite pro player and streamer gets into a tournament game. They're incredibly skilled and incredibly known for being one of, if not the best, players. Individually, each player decides "oh wow, this guy's better than me, that means the most optimal to play this game is to grief him whenever I can". As a result, despite being and playing better than the rest of the lobby, they are at an inherent disadvantage just because they are known for being good at the game. This not only makes for an awful experience for the pro player, but also makes for an incredibly frustrating game to watch from an audience perspective. It's really lame to watch a game where they all dogpile one guy just because they know he's good, with games looking like the Rainplosion game also covered in the video. A game where it's "optimal" to grief one specific guy shouldn't be what we want in the TFT community. I don't want a game where good players are penalized because they're known for being good, that sucks. This community was built on sharing ideas and guides and helping one another improve. It sucks that's being used against people. It's an incentive to not share that you're a good player, and to keep your strategies hidden, because if someone knows you're doing especially well on a specific patch it opens up the possibility of them targeting you because it's "optimal". Just feels lame imo.

[@rasmuskjaerpoulsen]

But thats just sports in general. The good players are always targeted the most. Its only a problem if someone targets them on other players behalf.​ If you target themfor your own benefit then you are just playing the game @@brodiebaxter99

[@Tony-rj7wv]

Tournament should not be 3 days cutting into work days. Should keep it to 2 days Saturday and Sunday, of course some people will still not be able to play this but you cannot make it available to everyone. TFT is a variance game and if there is that massive skill gap then the top players should be able to overcome that variance of low rolling over the 6 games that they play. You compared some players to Diamond NA, which means even with the variance these top challenger players should still make it through. Everyone plays with that variance, of course it feels bad if you low roll but if you’re not qualifying versus Diamond NA and you’re a challenger player surely you made some bad mistakes and it wasnt just because of lowroll (although it is a big part of it) The point about it feeling bad because when you win its just relief because you made it vs actually feeling accomplished makes sense. But at the same time if Riot increased the prize pool for winning these that would solve that problem. An increase in prizes makes players want to play, helps that feeling of accomplishment and if you actually win a larger amount of money it makes it worth it if some people will miss work to play the tournament.

[@Alittlebunyrabit]

So, I've been in a similar, albeit slightly different spot where I chose to int my board for placements. The biggest difference here is that we were in a rock, paper, scissors matchup and I needed third place to knock out second so I could go first. It seems very reasonable to int for placements within a game or even a tourney when you have a very specific goal or objective that advances you personally. In contrast, I think this particular case is so speculative in nature that it's hard to defend griefing Kurum when his overall placement in the tourney is entirely up in the air.

[@UntamedDragon13]

For example #1, I feel like if tft wants to be competitive then they have to embrace something that come with it. This scenario happens quite a bit in the NFL and NBA. This last year the chargers basically allowed to a tie with the chargers putting them both in the playoffs before the chargers shot themselves in the foot. Allowing teams you match up well against into the playoffs is part of the strategy. The seeding also matters, you might feel better as a lower seed depending on match ups. Some teams definitely "soft play" to rest starters or change how the playoff bracket will be set. Idk, im coming from traditional sports though so maybe the mindset is different.

[@koichinishida9901]

what board skin is rain using

[@Dopamine_Drop]

The only "soft play" is people upset about strategizing optimally in a strategy game. He didnt collude. He 100% did not break the spirit of the rules. Youre doing so much handwaving of the fact he did not conspire with anyone else, he played a strategy you didnt like.

[@sjb_92]

I feel like the rule should be something like player's decisions should never be based on something outside of that particular TFT game. Choosing to sack in order for another player to place lower isn't based on that game but on the tournament and would breach that rule.

[@Oleoay]

But people will play for fourth instead of first all the time just for standing points

[@harrison3207]

My take is #1(3 star annie Kurum): Doesn't feel great but still within the rules. There needs to be official addendum or ruling on these sort of cases if this is going to be changed. #2(Rainsplosion Zyra Snipe) Absolutely not trying to win, just trying to make you lose with them to benefit a third party. Definitely punishable #3 (low skill players in opening days): Maybe there should be an elo requirement but if you are going to have an open entry tournament it is a necessary evil in my opinion. TFT is a high variance game and poor results from bad luck happen sometimes. Well known names shouldn't just be given special privilege unless they earn it. Perhaps qualification points from previous that allow you to skip the opening stage is a possibility but otherwise it smacks of preferential treatment.

[@Zaturn_]

Bruh, you get Shen Augment, someone on the lobby gets prismatic ticket and rolls Shen 3 asap for their non synergistic comp. Classic

[@justindaniels5923]

Great video! Everything was very well said while offering a perspective from both sides! Thanks Baldy!

[@Caliswisper]

I think this set has a number of problems competitively. First being you need to play way to many games now which is the main reason Im taking a complete break this set. Having tournaments that are just essentially open qualifiers go for 3 days and having to take days of work for almost no reward isnt doable for most people. Secondly combining the regions, there is a huge imbalance in quality of players, why should brazil be playing against NA, it makes it feel terrible for the smaller regions and a waste of time for the larger regions,I play on OCE and i can guarantee the level here is alot lower than the viet server. Yes there maybe a few people on any server that are the top players in the world but in general the level is lower. It makes almost no sense to be combining regions

[@SlinkyJinkyStudio]

Just into the beginning of the video. Makes sense to make stronger competition get fewer points. Strat. I'll finish video and see what else is going on.

[@SlinkyJinkyStudio]

I don't think the first ex. Is soft play. Was no agreement to the other player. Just the 1st player being strategic. You see this stuff in sports all the time.

[@kyahboii]

@@SlinkyJinkyStudio agreed, if its to his "own" benefit, then why wouldnt he make his games easier. But in the same time, he should just check the rules so he doesnt mistakenly do some wintrading like moves.

[@SlinkyJinkyStudio]

The 1st ex: def don't think it broke rule book. No colluding, or benefit to multiple ppl on person. The "grief" really wasn't. It was strategic to the player and he was smart enough to know it. Happens in sports all the time. It helps him move on. It may be "gross" to you, but it's still part of competition. Feels bad when it does happen to yourself, but thats why there are multiple games. And skill is shown overall, not just 1 game I think. Remember ppl ruining your fortune streak? Hurts. (Update: you just kinda said this later in the video. ) The objectively bad play happens + tilt + saying Frick it etc. Maybe there should be preliminary rounds based on some conditions? And higher players on ladder get a bye?? Thoughts?

[@KevinKlien]

it's day one of a multi-day tournament. player's strategy is part of a long-term goal. it should be allowed. he wants to win the war, not just the battle.

[@cazarka7069]

I would say if there was evidence of those two players talking it would be for sure. I think its more the player is just trying to get a better standing by hurting a better player long term.

[@ChikaJihyo]

If its in a players best interest, its fine. If its griefing that doesn't benefit you and only hurts the other player, not fine. IMO

[@own3d33]

I was top 2 LAS in s1,s2,s3, all tournament was on weekend and My job is to sell burgers in the weekend at the same time of the tournament so i get so frutrated and stop playing 😪

[@alexdgod1106]

I hard disagree with the rule interpretation, its in the best interest of that player to grief the better players in the lobby to help his placements in the long run, you stated this side pretty well I think better players do need to be aware of this

[@Kubilayerol]

i think you cant punish a player for buying a unit

[@reldrago]

I'll never understand people having such an ego to think being smart with gameplay and making plays like this is because that person is griefing them specifically. Plays like this increase your chances of winning EXPONENTIALLY, and if rng gives you the chance why would you ever turn it down? This isn't some random match it's a major tournament where people will (and should) be doing everything in their power to win, even this. just soft people mad at it

[@brandon-alcocer]

You read what you wanted to see. The rule was to prevent collision, and there was no collision there. 0 argument for rule breaking.

[@calze6]

The real issue is how absurd the difference is between making and not making the snapshot. If you qualify for the Tactician's cup through ladder, you get to skip 3 days of play for each tournament. This is a huge advantage. As you can see, even top players can get eliminated days 1-3 simply to variance. It is not reasonable to have this huge of a disparity between people who qualify for Tactician's cup through ladder vs people who don't.

[@samirgomeznovelo746]

Look, if luck makes bad players beat better players regularly then the game is not that skilled based, or those bad players are actually just better, you can't get it both ways, you can't complain about losing to worse players if you are competing in a luck based game and you can't say they are worse players if the game is actually skilled based, pick one and stop complaining.

[@lousashrex]

I believe griefing like this should be allowed. It is the ultimate teamfight tactic.

[@Oleoay]

Meanwhile I’ve never had an Annie 3

[@chrismcleod5876]

Hear me out if players had their names, little legends and emotes removed this couldn't be an issue. But that would suck. The other thing is it is somewhat valid to greif/target the first place player but not to target a player because they are better than you or you don't like them or somthing.

[@Jevta624]

I see absolutely no issue here. Everyone is trying to win, especially in tourneys where a single point can mean a difference in placement.

[@HerpaDurpVg]

Annie player was a big brain. 🧠 Smart move, nothing wrong with it.

[@NullExotic]

We aint making it through law school with this one

[@Denizel91]

Well i get why ppl think its unsportsmanlike, but IMO its the game, by you're logic, I shouldt pick Lucky Paws at 2.1 because it OP and prob gonna put me way ahead of anyone else

[@santoshupretimadara]

like the 4d chess tactics ... its same as in other sports lmao ... actually smart

[@biomwalk]

Honestly, ngl, Ahri3 can be a beast. Ahri, Syndra, Aphelios, Ashe, Kog, + frontline Not saying its a great comp but I've made ahri3 comps do more work than syndra Idk why youd cook in tourney but like...idk bro was tryna cook I guess

[@dariustbt6840]

This rainplosion dude knows how to play.

[@kev5995]

The first play is literally just smart, he would have done that no matter who else was in the 3rd place spot. No agreement happens, it’s fair game

[@KerbalLauncher]

Barbados scoring an own goal

[@pierre-alexisrigo6776]

I don't see anything wrong here. It's frustrating but we all know TFT can be frustrating at times. Your performances are also based on your opponent decisions, them being "aimed at you" or not, and on the game's in-built variance. There is no cheating or collusion whatsoever. If Riot does not approve what happened there, there are many ways to counter it. Other people spoke about it in the comments (like regulating available data between competitors). But you can't blame people for taking all available data into account in order to get a better final placement in a tournament.

[@Kratzie77]

I honestly see nothing wrong with any of these plays. May some of them not be very fun to experience and lack some sportsmanship? Sure. But it's an individual competition and I don't think anyone can/should be punished on that in game. They may get a reputation and that could affect relationships and study groups outside of tournament play, which could have long term effects, but they aren't playing the game wrong. They might just be playing a way that most players don't like. There is a weird acceptance on "griefing " in certain spots and not others and I think players just have to accept things won't always go their way and things can't always be optimal. It's competition. Just gotta deal with it.

[@ionetricknunu]

WINTRADING

[@DefinitelyNot8th]

I actually really dislike your take on the first scenario. I feel like the point about collusion is absolutely unnecessary! It states right there in the rules that in order for it to be collusion they mustn't be playing for a reasonable standard of competition. He stated clearly how this move would help him in the rest of the tournament. Literally giving you proof that he had already thought about the play tactically. Who's to say people aren't throwing rounds in less obvious ways anyway? I really hate the idea of strategy being taken away from players just because they were thinking about the future of the tournament and not just the lobby they are currently in.

[@igibzeromeows]

xD previous video "you can always win, it's up to you and your fault if you bot four" - current video "it sucks to lose tournament to a low roll when you had to take a day of on Monday" make up ur fcking mind Subzeroark

[@drewcannedy3045]

I was on the side of "it should be allowed" at first for the first example. But then I thought about taking away the idea of the tournament and just thinking about the specific game they were playing. The guy that threw gains nothing from making kurum go 3rd in that specific game, so he's colluding with the player that goes second and breaking rules.

[@minyoungna6642]

I like this line of thought - no immediate benefit to SELF, which only benefits the 2nd player. The collusion unfalsifiable, but it’s not different from it actually being one.

[@Wikk7]

But you shouldn't be thinking about a specific game, what matters is the final score. It's the same way, when I open fort the second stage, I'm not thinking about the individual fights, because the placement in the end is what matters. In this case it's the placement after many games that matters, so that becomes the "game".

[@drewcannedy3045]

@@Wikk7 This was my thinking at first too. But is it not better for the competitive integrity of the tournament as a whole to not be able to "gameify" it? Who cares how well a player can "play" the tournament? I want to figure out who is the best at playing tft

[@kingrockkid]

Its a competition. Its time people stop expecting everyone to play like a goody two shoes, its okay to be cut throat as long as you dont do it in teams. Unless there is concrete proof, you just have to accept the int or be more cunning than the inter. Only way this changes is to remove the teeth of more predatory players, and not allow griefing in any capacity. If you leave blindspots in the rules they will certainly be exploited to win.

[@panagiotislepelis8177]

This subject keeps getting referenced over and over even though the conclusion is always the same. If it's not against the rules then it doesn't matter. Morally sure i don't agree with it but that is irrelevant. it's either against the rules or it's not. Currently it is not so nothing to talk about really. Riot already knows about this for a long time too.

[@amanshareef7971]

I'm ngl I completely disagree with your take at 6:43; They didn't grief to benefit the other person they griefed to benefit themselves; In a past tourney someone once literally ffd to guarantee their spot as wild card because otherwise they woudlve lost it to sommeone else; Actual colluding is obviously a big no no but I dont think this is the same

[@amanshareef7971]

Maybe I sgoudlve kept wathcing because you immediately adressed that lol

[@michaelbodrovics3583]

Skill issue tbh, do what it takes to win and if you get knocked early playing against “low level players” you don’t deserve the win anyways. The blatant inting for someone in your region is the only thing that I’d consider bannable

[@natelarson1273]

Hard disagree with you on point 2. You are making bold accusations claiming it was literally just to grief Rain. If taking units is griefing, then there should be an unlimited amount of every champ. it's part of the game, no different than when I am trying for 6 dryad and someone else is holding the azirs while playing ashe. Hanlon's razor, Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

[@SukoSeiti]

I don't see anything wrong here.

[@MesaGaming]

All of these shouldn’t be punished Some measures should be done to help players stay anonymous in game like hiding in game name plates but Spector and castors can see the name for better viewer exp But overall, pivoting into comps or holding units or playing their board whatever way should not be considered collusion unless there really is clear evidence of that in chat or otherwise If you are a better player, in any sport or game people will strategize against you , you expect people to deny you something or your preferred way to play Griefing is over used and it’s only for team based games where mostly your teammate make the game unwinnable , this is an entirely different I think Curious to see how the rules or execution adapts

[@savarog2032]

Absolutely nothing wrong with benching the 3 star Annie here. That's tactical. I would say it's on a similar level to sacking econ to hold units that another player wants within a game.

[@laru09]

I would totally grief for the benefit of another LAS player without even asking

[@williamwhite8667]

The last one might be giefing but people need to get over being griefed. These people are playing win and it's part of the game to hold units someone wants. They are targeting you. It sucks but get over it. Now win trading or players working together should not be allowed

[@durantf4207]

Mr. SubZeroArk, I feel like there’s no such thing as the “spirit of a rule”. A rule is a rule and you have to go by what it says, not how you want to interpret it.

[@Fullmetal6]

Youre assuming every rule ever written is written to cover every possible potential circumstance and predict the future

[@amp7226]

FIRST

[@GoldDounuts]

Isn't tft kind of inherently a bad game to play competitively tho? Its like gambling but you cant even bluff cause everyone can see your cards. Why would anyone expect any sort of completive integrity with this game?

[@Danthrax66]

Nothing about this would qualify as collusion, that requires two people to be in an agreement, look up the definition of collude. This should be perfectly acceptable and adds more depth to tournament play. Same with holding units, should be totally allowed, if you don't want people to act like humans and play to win then just make everyone play against bots and have figure out a way to score that, I'm sure there will still be people bitching about the bots griefing them. Scout and adapt to the game, and quit whining.

[@iamwhoiam3568]

you should spend more time practicing different comps...... pretty surprised and disappointed that you played tactitians not knowing how to play umbral comp and went 7th... going 8th with 8 ghostly.... spending most of the time just looking at metatft for numbers and losing lack of scouting

[@rogeriojnr1563]

Day 6 of asking for Subzero Subzeroark 🥷🧊