Confusing Board Game Terminology (Meta Game Minute)

[@Atariese]

I forget who said this, and i even more forget what game it was describing (i think it was D&D actually) but "Crunchy" was described like a bowl of lucky charms. The marshmallow bits are the feel good sugary parts to the game, the parts that are awesome and cool and lets you describe your experiences with enthusiasm. Whereas the crunchy bits are the hard mechanical mathy parts that you have to think over and work thru to be able to swallow. Most games have both elements, but reaching a balance is what most people really want out of their cereal. Its not a definition, but its helped me get a grasp on the concept.

[@eVanDiesel]

The intro worked

[@nickholcomb9531]

Grok comes from Robert Heinlein's novel Stranger in a Strange Land. In that novel it is a Martian word meaning to completely understand something to the greatest degree possible. It most likely ended gamer culture through cross pollination with sci-fi culture.

[@2frelledminds]

I read the book so many years ago in high school so I might have it wrong, but specifically I think the book explained it as an almost instinctual understanding. Every time I hear someone use it, I wonder if they have any idea where it came from.

[@vespera219]

This helped me make sure I'm not using insider terms when talking with new people. This totally helper me at a work event this last weekend, so I wanted to leave a thank you!

[@sassqueen24]

i super enjoy your hoodie nick!

[@Metroidam11]

The way I understood "crunchy" is by thinking "number crunching" which to me meant doing mental arithmetic to figure out a problem. You have to track a couple of things in your brain and compute the outcome. A crunchy game requires you to consider your options, the subsequent actions and their outcomes. I think a part 2 of this video explaining genres would also he helpful. Starting out, I was confused by terms like worker placement, deck builder, rondelle, set collection, engine building, etc. I know dice tower and others have put out videos but I'm curious to hear your spin.

[@brendant2180]

"crunchy" is a play on the colloquial phrase "A lot on your plate" or "a lot to chew on", so what you said is true, but i would add that it means there are a lot of rules that go into even performing a single action or turn. a game that comes with a 24-page rule book, plus multiple-individual reference guides

[@TheDavidPhillips]

Board game terminology is fascinating and frustrating at the same time. So much of it actually falls apart the more specifically you try to describe/define it - you really just have to kind of get a general feel for what that mean. That is fascinating in that it makes it very easy to talk to one another, but frustrating and convoluted to talk with people "outside" the hobby. I can't give you a solid definition of "fiddly" that will apply across the board, but I know a fiddly game when I play one, even if I cant pinpoint exactly why a similar game is less fiddly. In short, our terminology is kind of along the same lines as describing what makes a game fun - you just know when it is.

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

This is what I've read. Euro and Amerithrash come from post WW2 history. In Europe, war games became sort of taboo. Games moved much more into resource management/hand management/worker placement, etc. And downplayed direct player conflict. This did not happen in America, so war games continued to thrive. Now we have these terms to describe games that pull from that legacy. Amerithrash for war games (Warhammer), conflict based area control (Risk), skirmish games (Zombicide) and Euro for engine building, resource management, worker placement. That's my understanding of how those terms came to be used.

[@phunkysai]

We also alienate newcomers when describing the mechanisms of games. I sent a video to a non-gamer who was looking for game suggestions for Christmas and they came back with all kinds of questions...”What is hand management? Worker placement? Action selection?” I think we can forget we’re not always speaking to people inside the hobby....

[@dsweet5273]

Crunchy is typically used to describe a game where players might need to account for a lot of data and/or interactions when making decisions. Fiddly is typically used to describe a game with an excessive amount of components that you have to keep track of or move around. Euro-games are typically games with very little or no player to player interaction as well as very little or no randomness/luck. This often results in a games that focus on each player accruing as many points as possible or games that have players racing against one another to attain some sort of objective. Ameritrash games on the other hand typically have a lot more player to player interaction and randomness. These games will often involve rolling dice, drawing cards, and mechanics that allow you to directly impact another player.

[@SenseiJae]

crunchy - comes from "number crunching". It means there are a lot of things to "compute" fiddly - often used with the phrase "fiddly bits". It means there are a lot of things to "move around" this could apply equally to physical and meta-physical components of a game. euro - this is one that I tried to help fix in 1995 when I coined the term "designer game" (see rec.games.board) It was intended to describe the games being developed at the time with the following properties: a family strategy game with minimal luck, usually no player elimination and often prominently featuring the name of the designer. At the time, the majority of "designer games" came from Europe, hence, "eurogame".

[@SenseiJae]

other terms which probably need definition: meta, broken, OP, heavy, medium, light, COIN, and 4x

[@SenseiJae]

also, Grok has a specific meaning, it means to understand something intuitively through empathy. Often it is an intimate understanding. It comes from the novel "Stranger in a Strange Land".

[@johnthomas4567]

Crunchy is a game with a lot of number crunching (i.e. point salads)

[@Atlas-FM8]

For me a euro game is a game that prioritizes strategy and tactics over luck and randomness while having little to no direct/aggressive interaction. As for theme in euros, yes euros will generally prioritize mechanisms over theme but that doesn’t mean a euro can’t be thematic. It just means when a euro designer has the choice of making a thematic rule with a lot of edge cases and addendums or a universal rule that’s more abstract and streamlined and doesn’t always make thematic sense they’ll generally pick the 2nd option.

[@ericlink2828]

Crunchy or chunky means that you have to work really hard for each step forward... also could refer to clockwork type games where actions may be simple but have significant consequences or have a cascade of effects. Fiddly when used in reference to a game is talking about a game that hasn't been streamlined so that there are many exceptions and vague rule sets. When used in reference to mechanics or components it is about unorganized, sloppy, or difficult to preform or manipulate. For a game to meet the definition of a Eurogame it must meet the following 3 qualifications: 1) The winner is determined by the player who earned the most victory points 2)Interaction between players does not exist or is only through limitations... limited actions, resources, or first come first serve. 3)The theme can not be about war, fighting, or have significant moral consequences. I tried to be declarative... like I knew what I was talking about... but... Happy New Years to the whole crew!

[@eddieb8054]

Euro. A term that meant something specific in 1980, but it’s changed over time to mean whatever the user needs it to mean in the moment. Similar to Gen Z’s use of the term “Yeet”. It was originally a term for a game that used victory points instead of player elimination. As in Europe there wasn’t the same “glory” and “delight” in destroying your opponents. Monopoly and Risk were last player standing, with no established ending other than when no one is left but the winner. Those are American style. Whereas the Euro games had limited turns and whoever had the most points won. Or first person to cross a threshold. It was a preference encouraged by country. Nowadays the lines have blurred, and each person can say how they see the difference.

[@SenseiJae]

yeet means to throw something forcibly, how is that ambiguous?

[@eddieb8054]

Jae Cordes I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic. I assume you are making a joke. But it’s hard to tell without knowing you. Sorry. You probably get that “Yeet” is an exclamation of excitement or approval and depending on what motions are “mimed” it can mean many things. Kind of like when we say- slow, dry, themeless, boring, slogging, point salad- style Euro. Context gives clarity. So “YEET!” With miming the “mind blown” hands action.

[@SenseiJae]

totally serious, yeet is not an exclamation, it is a word (verb) that means to throw emphatically. The use you describe is incorrect usage of the word (and one I've never heard of). Proper usage: "Defenestration means to yeet something out a window." "Yeet me a roll." "Yeet the weeds into that pile over there." "The seal yeeted an octopus into the boat."

[@eddieb8054]

Jae Cordes I understand now. So Yeet is definitely like the term Euro. That was the original meaning. Then with Gen Z. The generation currently in 6th through 12th grade in the US. Has adapted many of the terms and phrases, using them in their own creative fashion together. So a term like “family” could be switched to “fam jam” then “fam” by itself means close friends. So if an 11th grade kid says “she yeeted” making an arm swinging motion like rocking a baby. They could literally be saying. “ holy poop, she had a baby.” So this literal phrase Yeet, is adapting through the generations. And to our grandkids, will mean something completely different. When I was a kid. “Gay” meant deliriously happy. It changed. Euro meant “A” now it means “A,B,C” No telling what will change next. My grandkids might reference the Electoral College as Point Salad.

[@SenseiJae]

The word isn't that old. It started being used in common vernacular in 2014. I think the usage you are describing comes from a dance called the "yeet" which is based on the action of throwing something behind you. Your mind-blown example still doesn't hold as proper usage.

[@BlueGiantMedia]

Dig the sweater 👍

[@erichorner8336]

Just say, “The rules are fiddly” for your version and say, “That game is fiddly” for the popular version. That’s how I use them. Both are fiddly. Neat video!

[@MarinerOrk]

Ive always distinguished ameritrash from euro games by where the randomness within a game comes from. Games with event decks or dice are ameritrash, where games like chess are euro games because the only randomness comes from your opponents decisions. I might be way off, but like you said, its not well defined

[@UnCompress_]

Imo the main difference between euro's and ameritrash is the sequence in which the game and players dictates gameplay. Procative gameplay (euro) vs. reactive gameplay (ameritrash) Euro: players input / choose > game gives outcome / reacts. Ameritrash: game dictates > players reacts / choose. For example with a euro game a player has different options and the player must input an action / option for the game to act on that choice: I can get wood to build a house or stone to build a wall, the player makes a choice and the game give the player the result of his/her choice. With an ameritrash it's the exact opposite. There is always a mechanic in which the game changes a condition on which the players need to react: There is a monster, you roll a dice and it attacks. Now it's the players turn to react on this situation.

[@joewatts6016]

Fiddley I use both ways and use context. This game is Fiddley has little pieces and the rules are really fiddley aswell. Euro Game as a term confused me when I got into Board games (and still does mostly) But I always took it to be a game with good mechanics that give you something to think about with options. You can play the same game but play a different way instead of just roll the dice, move that many spaces forward. Is it a snake or a ladder? Also stuff like abbreviations like AP stumped me until I heard someone say analaysis paralysis.

[@DutchYoda]

Love the hoodie! I have no issues with terminology, but when I talk about games I really need to keep it as understandable as possible.

[@txsportsfreak02]

Why can I get that hoodie nick?

[@jcphenom]

squareup.com/store/love-thy-nerd Lovethynerd.com

[@seanmorgan2257]

i am confused when thinking about your turn options becomes analysis paralysis

[@chrismusix5669]

Just taking an inordinate amount of time to think on your turn is considered AP. I figure a player is allowed one or two 'extra long think' turns per game (well, that's what I do for myself anyway).

[@Andural69]

Fiddly Is a game where you have to Keep changing things out or moving pieces around. Architects Of the West Kingdom is fiddly because it's taken resources you keep on happening exchange you're moving around and get the x5. Euro, more about symmetrical, no luck, no direct player confrontation. Here's another though: Dudes on a map. I always took to be a multiplayer skirmish game. Blood rage, rising sun, etc. Apparently, a lot Of people define it as any game with miniatures on it. I would say that God father corleone's Empire and an anachrony Are not dude's on a map game, but small world is. Words I love, tableau & ap.

[@LibrarianChef]

This interpretation of the term "euro game" is correct. The lack of a theme or pasted on theme is a by-product of focusing on balancing the mechanics and strategic decision making over luck (e.g., rolling dice without a means to mitigate the outcome). The emphasis on reduced player confrontation stems from the aversion to conflict in games in Germany following WWII, I believe. Wikipedia actually has a good entry for this one: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurogame

[@wsiegel9539]

I have always liked hearing the "Weight" of a game. Light, Medium, Heavy... and in between Medium-Heavy game etc. Where is the scale to define what the weight of a game really is? Heavy game to me may be a Medium weight to you. I have seen reviewers give a game a 4 out of 5 on the weight scale. What weight scale? "It's a crunchy, heavy, euro game that is a bit fiddly"

[@SenseiJae]

boardgamegeek is the usual reference for values like this. (although I think BGG got many of their terms from ludology). Weight refers to how much "thinking" is involved in the course of the game. A light game will likely only require cursory choices, and quite possibly just actions with no tactics or strategy. These types of games tend to be very luck driven. (example: roll some dice and perform an action based on the outcome or follow the directions on a card. See candyland, chutes and ladders, cootie, etc) A medium game implies some decision space that has meaningful impact on the outcome of the game. These types of games tend to balance luck with tactics/strategy. (example: if I put my units here I can block the other players but if I go over there I can create my own path to some other point.) Heavy games require deep thought and complex strategy to play well. A very heavy game may require several minutes of deep contemplation to make a meaningful move. Heavy games are usually typified with VERY long play times. Chess is probably between medium and heavy and Go is likely a very heavy game.

[@wsiegel9539]

@@SenseiJae I understand weight as I am a gamer... it is another term we use that non-gamers or new gamers are like What? Just look how long it took you to explain it...lol BGG rates it 1-5

[@tzgardner]

I keep hearing people use the term rondel. "This game is a rondel."

[@MarinerOrk]

roun·del /ˈroundl/ noun 1. a small disk, especially a decorative medallion

[@evannadeau3938]

I don’t really know how to explain Euro Games at all but I have always viewed them as like Worker Placement, Meeple’s, Artsy designs, Tile Placement. Like Lisboa, Casltes of Burgandy, Castles of Mad Kind Ludwig, Carcasonne. I can look at the covers of those games and be like “Yep thats a Eurogame and I don’t even know how it plays.” I feel like Euro games have a unique style. Ameri Trash is like miniature, boards, usually popular IP’s like Batman or Ninja Turtles. Chuckin dice, combat, adventure, action. Gloomhaven, Champions of Midgard, Imperial Assault are games I look at and think “Def not Eurogame”. haha maybe Euro Games could be described like Prime Time TV and Ameri Trash games are Saturday morning cartoons! (Thats probably terrible but seems accurate to me right now since I”m a 90’s kid) I get the “Mechanics over theme” but isn’t everything a mechanic? Like throwing dice, area control, worker placement, deck building etc. Idk if that explaination would be correct and if I heard someone explain it that way I’d be like “Whoa wait”. I have been into the hobby for quite a while now but only recently started appreciating Euro Games. I went for that Ameri Trash look every time while Euro games on art alone always steered me away. (Except Viticulture. I looked at that box and was like “Wine? Whatever dont care that box is sucking me in somehow. Similar to Nicks experience). Its more of a feeling to me and hard to describe. What a question! Great video as always guys

[@Farstr1d3r]

That is a SWEET ASS hoodie. Where to buy????

[@almsthvn]

Like a lot of hobbies, a "inner-circle" dictionary of terms seems to congeal so that those in-the-know can communicate in shorthand.. but for new folks coming in, it might contribute to the feeling of isolation. So my thought was - if you're at a store or con or something, and ask the usual question "what kind of games do you like?" maybe throw them some breadcrumbs to follow - instead of "co-op or competitive" try "do you think you'd prefer working as a team, or battling the other players?"

[@BalanceFreedomPiano]

I think we need to define Euros more in terms of history than characteristics. It can be thought of broadly as a school of design that originated primarily in Germany but also throughout Europe that avoided overt conflict or war themes, with a preference towards economic themes. I think this is a better approach than forming an overly precise list of characteristics, because that inevitably leads to including some games that don’t seem like they should belong and conversely excluding games that seem like they should be included. It may not be the most helpful way to start for new gamers, but I think people speak about Euro games from “feel”. We may all agree that games like Terra Mystica, Agricola and Stefan Feld games are examples of Euros... does the game have a similar feel or not? It’s a word that may best be formed by consensus.

[@sebasculin3739]

We had the Euro debate a while back, that is sht given definition online...it makes no sense! What is the difference between an Abstract and a Euro then?

[@thursty4boardgames944]

Are you guys ever gonna talk about that Justin Bieber game?

[@TheBrothersMurph]

Sch Thu27 no need for us to talk about the greatest game ever made. It speaks for itself

[@MoriMemento117]

I feel both definitions of fiddly work quite well. I know of several games that suffer from one or both of those problems. And they compound each other too!

[@tokanite]

Great vid! One you mentioned that I've heard before is "Ameritrash" or "Amerithrash" -- is that like, a D&D style game that uses miniatures / focuses on combat?

[@SenseiJae]

lots of plastic pieces, usually conflict oriented with emphasis on eliminating your opponents. Typified with over-the-top garish graphics. Axis and Allies is the poster child for this genre.

[@almsthvn]

End wrap - I love Ahnold Schwartzenquacker! Keep Ahnold happy and chip in at the Patreon page :)

[@TheDavidPhillips]

I always kind of felt Euro games focused more on long term strategy, whereas Ameri-whatevers involve more luck/chaos - tactics could fall into either category. For example, something like Gizmos has zero theme with the entire game built around the mechanics they wanted to use - never heard it called a Euro.

[@IronSalamander8]

Fiddly is used so often these days I think there must be at least 7 definitions! It's definitely overused by some people!

[@joshestes6427]

So this isn't going to be definitions, or at least mostly not, but the creation of language is something that happens in all fields and groups. Generally, it is used as many have already suggested, as a sort of short hand to describe something to someone who is familiar with the term. I think context is everything when it comes to language in gaming, and while it may be a steep curve for newcomers, these terms allow us to better communicate. So if you mention to a friend that you really enjoyed the worker placement euro you played last night and they look confused, you probably need to dial it back. But it also means our hobby has grown to the point of needing language because while the definitions are not all the same, the terms are all known to gamers. Similarly to terms in other places like Rom Com in movies or pedagogy in teaching are well known to those in those fields or interests. Also, definitions develop, you can't just say this is what it means, so much as look at the context others use the term, and then draw from on the similarities to make the definitions. So how about this, comment below on these three games what category would you put them? We can see how much unity we have. Game of Thrones the board game. Blood Rage Viticulture 1. Euro 2. Amerithrash 3. Engine Building

[@dukeofsir4392]

I’ve heard that Euro Games are mechanically driven away from luck and sometimes steers away from “take that” mechanics. Where as Ameri-thrash games are the opposite. It seems that whatever one is the other is the polar opposite. Yin and yang, dark and light but is there one that will bring Balance to the Board?

[@joygee9297]

As an oldie newby, I find most of the terms impossible to grok (a my generation term, actually). But that does nothing to diminish my enjoyment. I love listening and trying to figure out wtf you are saying. For instance: Ameri-thrash??? Sounds like a wrestling style.

[@MoriMemento117]

I'm so with you on that Euro-game definition, Nick!! Theme vs. mechanics really isn't a good delineation anymore between Euro vs Amerithrash, in my opinion... I mean, unless we want to keep games relegated to the classification of either having terrible thematic tie-ins or terrible gameplay. More and more recently I've been describing Euros as more focused on strategic resource management, while Amerithrash games will be more interested in reactionary/tactical gameplay with rapid and often changing board states. Going along with that meager attempt at a definition is the idea that Euros tend to be more deterministic than random - though I would argue that Euro game design is not wholly foreign to the idea of randomness, they just prefer to locate it earlier in the course of the game stream(s). This early randomness (that comes prior to decision making, rather than after) allows the board to quickly settle into the usual relatively stable-state that a Euro-gamer prefers and decisions can follow from there.

[@onepipwonder915]

good video Nick :) I agree these terms are loosy-goosy. Even if there are good definitions out there, people use them to describe everything! ....also what is ameria -trash I am i even saying that right?? amera-trash? amer-a-trash? I am curious because I am pretty sure I like ameria-trash game a lot, but I am not %100 sure about the term lol

[@Straddllw]

I see that Justin Bieber boardgame on your shelf. Bow your head down in shame!

[@TheBrothersMurph]

Straddllw I refuse! I hold my head high to the greatest game ever made!

[@adamanderson1979]

Crunchy: lots of decisions, and each one has the potential to gain or lose significant amounts of end game points , commonly seen in games where you earn points with each action. I.E point salad games Fiddly: can be many components, but is better defined by action versus effects . If a single action has many different effects that the players have to act through. This by nature means a large amount of rules overhead and component bloat . But in general if you have to handle components a lot without actually making decisions, that’s fiddly. Euro game: meaningless since ~2005. And even then euros were best defined by “games that were created by Europeans “ . That definition encompasses the focus of mechanisms over theme, the aversion to player elimination or warfare, and naming a game after a city or location and thinking that works as advertising. It was the European culture seen through the games they play and make. But the truth is with the full adoption of the internet and international markets both players and designers are not playing to the same geographical boundaries or cultural norms. The term is worthless and should be killed. Reviewers who care about mechanisms describe game by the mechanisms, those that care about theme describe the theme and so on. Light vs medium vs heavy: a combination of two factors. First is the tendency for a player to take a long time to make a decision. The second is how many of those decisions a player has to make to finish the game. These terms are a substitute for describing game time length, that attempts to account for the difficultly of the decisions made. Players not as experienced or skilled will take longer than the time listed on the box if it is “heavy” while gamers who have lots of experience or skill can finished games earlier than advertised on the box If the game is “light”. Medium games then generally follow the time listed on the box regardless. Thematic: when the art, backstory, and other story elements of a game either influences or informs the decisions made. Ask yourself not “could this game be remade with a different theme “ but instead “ does this theme help me play or teach the game”. And I want to be very specific here it is play or teach, not win. Winning a game will always be mechanically driven. However enjoying a gaming experience can be utterly determined by the theme of a game. Party game: like Euro game above , it is a game played at a party. First you define the party, then I can define the party game.