Constitution Casters in DnD

[@mikef517]

"I like to think instead of just one Cinder juggling thoughts as they revolve around the camera, that it's actually a council of Cinders who convene from parallel dimensions to debate the replies, but their thought patterns are so similar they usually just end up finishing eachother's sentences" - Me pitching monster ideas

[@Cinderblocksally]

The first one to notice.

[@jedediahcoulbourne1791]

I'm picturing something like the Council of Sheldons skit from BBT but with more beard

[@josec.6394]

The Council of Ricks

[@lachlanmccormick3486]

Each angle he shows up at is a different Cinder, if he rotates/spins as he talks it's many speaking simultaiously

[@SAUglaz]

It's a Cinder hydra, clearly.

[@stardragon8585]

It's not that the magic makes you more sturdy, but that you have to be sturdy to force the weave to do what you want the way sorcerers do

[@TheBigFormerlyPurpleT]

I think it goes both ways. And this could work for many other classes. Warlock, Druid, even some martial classes could benefit from it. Especially the ones who have to specialize in other things, but need a high Con. I know my character with one level each in Beast Barb and Moon Druid with 18 in Con and Str, but a 13 in Dex and Wis, could use some help, and arcane fortification would suit him well. Especially considering that I'd like to add Kensei Monk and Gloomstalker Ranger to help synergize his mediocrity. Long story short, this good idea. Me like.

[@Grey_Shard]

and in several stories such as Harry Potter and the Belgariod (i think, it's been awhile), magic-users tend to be longer-lived and sturdier than non-magicals. So it kind of made sense to me.

[@Grabthar191]

@@TheBigFormerlyPurpleT Eldrich Knight maybe?

[@lordroyalnightmare]

Exactly! It's more like "You can only use magic to the degree your body is able to withstand", so your high CON let's you give an extra push to your spells

[@stardragon8585]

@@lordroyalnightmare oh I only just thought of how will it works with metamagic too

[@honeybadger2898]

I’ve always phrased charisma as being your “presence”. Not just in a room, but in a more metaphysical sense of place. It’s why charisma is the save for banishment. It’s the magical/metaphysical form of constitution

[@Ryquard1]

So using your logic Charisma mirrors Constitution for the reasons given. Dexterity would mirror Intelect due to being tied to hability, quickness of body or mind, being flexible in space and with tought And Wisdom would mirror Strenght, sturdiness of body and will, the power to push trough and resist to be pushed arround in the flesh or in your mind... kinda makes sense

[@devilsluk]

​@@Ryquard1 Intelligence and Strength are the mirrors, as they represent sheer "force" or "power", one physical and one mental. Higher Intelligence allows you to retain more information, the same way that high Strength lets you carry more stuff. This is why all knowledge checks (Arcana, History, Nature, Investigation, Religion) are Intelligence based; Your ability to locate information, retain information, and apply information, all at once. Figuratively, it's how much information you can "carry". Dexterity and Wisdom are the mirrors for physical/mental, as Wisdom includes the ability to not just recognise a situation and know what to do, but to also do so while it's relevant. That's why checks like Insight, Perception, and Medicine are Wisdom based. Using the same figurative manner above, it's not how much you can carry, it's how well you use what you *do* have. It's been described in old D&D books as a High Int Low Wis character can be represented by a highly knowledgeable but absent-minded professor-type who knows exactly what they're talking about, but gets caught up in it to the point of losing track of what's going on around them, or may get caught up in a dozen ideas that come to them while they're talking. A Low Int, High Wis character could be someone who only has the education of the streets; they're incredibly cunning, can read people and situations pretty much perfectly (they always seem to know when Something is Wrong, for example), but they don't necessarily know how or why it's that way.

[@That_One_Kobold]

Charisma is used for "willpower" in DnD hence you use it to resist banishment

[@Madwiseace]

@@That_One_KoboldEvery version of D&D with a “Will” save straight up disagrees with you and uses Wisdom.

[@That_One_Kobold]

@@Madwiseace what do you mean every version of dnd with a will save? You mean previous editions? Things change yk

[@Gallalad1]

Also worth noting that Con doesn’t have any direct skills tied to it. So by choosing con you are forgoing other skill bonuses. Like giving up persuasion or deception as powerful skills is worth factoring in

[@H1Guard]

No skills, because DnD doesn't have a real fatigue model. They just slapped together a half-assed sequence of conditions and called it fatigue.

[@LynTheKnight]

2 words concentration checks Imagine a main caster prof with con saves and there main stat I just grab a wonderful feat and good luck making me fail any concentration check again Mechanically for casters that's wild Themematicly that's dope as hell

[@Gallalad1]

@@LynTheKnight sure but can tell you from experience a) even at WoTC organised tables you basically never have to roll said check and b) there’s other ways around it as you hint at. It actually kinda reenforces my point actually that it’s expected downside is so easily fixed/not a real issue

[@cwdiode4521]

Alternatively, they need to be sturdy in order to withstand the magic surging through them

[@Moose_vk]

Sorcerer feels like a class that would greatly benefit from having a flexible main stat option.

[@nebei3740]

Always wanted a strengh caster

[@EnraiChannel]

Con caster sorcerer would be kind of strong because they also get con as a proficient saving throw. So pumping up con to 20 as fast as possible makes you very good at concentrating. But it would open sorcerer to also be more of a melee caster, especially draconic as they get 1 more extra hp per lvl and their AC is 13 + dex. So if you just focus on those two you can get pretty good AC too without any tricks. Pretty cool in my opinion.

[@almontemcclendon661]

Personally i prefer wisdom for sorcerers even though theres a lot of wisdom casters i feel instead of charisma which never made sense to me or constitution which would infer your body being tougher being what gives you this magical controll wisdom would be more like an understanding of your bloodline allowing you to use your magic better

[@Thewallace7347]

​​@@nebei3740 *Hank Azaria impression* Boom, boom, fireball

[@milamberarial]

@@almontemcclendon661 Its Charisma normally because Charisma includes force of will/personality. Sorcerers are supposed to be just brute force imposing their will on reality (as opposed to wizards knowing the tricks to get reality to do things).

[@ryanhale6339]

Also, CON is used for Concentration checks when you take damage while concentrating on a spell.

[@robertmacdonald8177]

Yes - I'm surprised he didn't mention that...

[@NationalSecurityAgencyUS]

WHICH SORCERERS SHOULD BE GOOD AT, AND ARE ALREADY GOOD AT

[@stankmcdankton6204]

@@NationalSecurityAgencyUS ^ That's an excellent point. Wizards might know a greater variety of spells, but sorcerers should be to magic what barbarians are to acts of pure strength. Some things you can't teach. Some people are just built different.

[@verasital]

​@@stankmcdankton6204nice way of putting it

[@TheGismono]

okay what's your point here? Example as level 5 and with the standrd array or point buy: Concentration check The way it is now: Most would go for 13 - 15 on constitution have some race asi to round it out if needed, so say 14= and +2 mod and level 5 PB for the con save is +3 mod. So a + 5 (or +6) on the con save Concentration check The I would be with con as spell casting stats: Same base PB math but your going to aim for the 18 con at level 5 So a +7 on the con save The effect is going to be minor, and you would have a reason to not having yet another charisma caster.

[@ArdisMeade]

What might be nifty for a Con-based Sorcerer is a mechanic to allow them to sacrifice Hit Points for Sorcery points.

[@ra1nyran]

or to boost their spells up a level or something

[@Ruiso7]

Or something that uses Hit Dices as an action to heal, something like a magical bloodline surge once per short rest, also triggering the Bloodwell Vial to get more Sorcery Points once a day.

[@OblivionOdditiesProjectStudios]

This is actually in the new TTRPG Oblivion Oddities! It's massively better than both DnD & Pathfinder! Allow for Castors to cast multiple spells in a turn. They're already claiming the title of The Greatest TTRPG ever! It doesn't have a kickstarter but a gofundme.

[@notesmaker204]

Sorcery points could be traded for hp or metamagic

[@d73w80]

​@@Ruiso7 maybe hit dice to restore sorcery points?

[@baddus]

Magic doesn't make you more sturdy, it makes you more explosive.

[@Amanoob105]

This^. If you take a container and fill it full of high energy "stuff" you don't get a tanky boy, you get a bomb that could go off anytime something hits it. That's logic.

[@fishrechaun6425]

@@Amanoob105 This just makes me think to fold wild magic sorc into the baseline class.

[@Amanoob105]

@@fishrechaun6425 As I would explain it. Wild magic sorcerers are to other sorcerers what, respectively, nitroglycerin is to dynamite. Both will go off under the right conditions, but one is a lot less picky about what those conditions are, while the other typically only goes off on request.

[@Sothas]

The Pathfinder Kineticist does this, Con as casting stat, and then uses HP as a casting resource, and it works great.

[@guyguy5019]

It's not a caster, and that's important to why this is fine, it's far more raw than a spell, and far less powerful in what it can do usually, most of what it can do is damage insanely well. Unless they changed it in 2e, and made it really awful. Kineticists worked conceptually, because they have limited control over their element, and the element was very raw and forceful, unlike how sorcerers work, which have to force the magic out of themselves, through force of will (will represents a more sturdy side of will, charisma represents the outward element of willpower)

[@Sothas]

@@guyguy5019 Sure, you're not casting wish, but there is a lot of utility. My playgroup has changed to Spheres of Power for PF1. We've been playing since AD&D 2e and it also allows for Con casting. If you're unfamiliar, it's a spell point system, and you pick talents like feats, using those talents as spells. Con casting uses spell points and HP and it also works. My point is that Con casting is perfectly reasonable, so long as hit points as a resource is also part of the equation.

[@FMHikari]

"Surely the guy with magic fire coming out from every opening is should be more sturdy than a barrel on fire"

[@motivateddad]

Pathfinder with their Kineticists:"We gotchu, homie"

[@RioDrake]

Spheres of Power (PF1 and 5e): We got all of you other casters too!

[@silasskirata]

Also the P1E scarred Sorc Arcetype does it too

[@RioDrake]

@@silasskirata the Scarred Witch Doctor? That got errata. It's less flavorful now but absolutely broken on half-orcs (only way to START with a 22 Int at level 1).

[@wilhelmseleorningcniht9410]

@@RioDrake faaaavorite system

[@FenrirEX]

Kineticist: “We’re basically b*nders from *T*A, but we filed a lot of the serial numbers off.”

[@miraartemis]

My brain went the route of "strengthening your body to strengthen your connection to your bloodline"

[@Alexandrosps12]

Or strengthen your body to be able to endure the strain the magic puts on it.

[@thatoneguy-yc1sj]

This is an argument for sorc monk hybrid to have con for their stat

[@thatoneguy-yc1sj]

​@Alexandrosps12 then why do wizards not need that?

[@ballstealer]

​@@thatoneguy-yc1sjbecause they use magic in different ways.

[@matthewpopow6647]

Muscle Mage: How you expect to weild infinite comic power with tiny little pencil body.

[@alexiswigginton452]

I always assumed sorcerers were just higher in ego cause theyre natural, so thats why they used charisma, because their bloodline or "pride" is what powers them

[@jakeveal5519]

"And on your other other other hand..." Cinder is General Grievous

[@Tbrekke]

It's not the magic making you sturdy; it's your sturdiness enabling you to channel more magic!

[@aegis-gaming]

Certified Kineticist moment 😎

[@kraftwerk2644]

​@@aegis-gamingbased

[@lyntonfleming]

"How does magic make your body more sturdy?" It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit.

[@kaiyoninglesbirth-johnson7863]

Basically magic reinforcement I guess.

[@TAGZ125]

​@@kaiyoninglesbirth-johnson7863Sounds like some anime magic system but you're not wrong. Lol. Magic be magic.

[@whatwasisnot]

@@kaiyoninglesbirth-johnson7863natural magic reinforcement world only make you sturdy against magic

[@chronovoid8942]

​@@kaiyoninglesbirth-johnson7863reminds me if a novel on Royal Road; 'Weapons Of Mass Destruction', the main character has so much mana his body keeps destroying itself and rebuilding, resulting in his other stats raising 'naturally', mainly his constitution

[@Hector-Rhyzell]

I know... But how? 😂

[@izumiryu]

That reminds me of the story of the Wizard that decided to go full strength just to mess with the group's Paladin bully. When the DM asked why he did that, he said that he delved into the Elements so it made sense that his body would be strong to adapt to it. Edit: I think this is the most up votes I've had on a single comment...thanks...

[@hadeskingoftheunderworld7010]

Muscle wizard casts fist basically

[@SpicyPotatoe]

Like all those jacked earth benders in Avatar. There's a manga called Mashle or something. I thinks it's about a guy who went to a wizard school but he wasn't magic so he got jacked as fuck and everyone thinks his strength is magic or something.

[@heilmodrhinnheimski]

How would he mess with the paladin tho? All of his features and abilities will still be tied to intelligence, he gains basically nothing from doing so. He’d have an easier time bullying the paladin by staying wizard than trying to gimp himself with strength

[@izumiryu]

@@heilmodrhinnheimski paladin was.forcing contests of strength on spellcasters on early levels, so he built a wizard that played (and beat him) at his own rules.

[@robertnett9793]

Instructions unclear. Sprouted 6 Hands and don't know what to do with them.

[@scornlok9321]

Love how he argues with his own logic and then fires back with good answers to his own arguments.

[@tordlindgren2123]

I love that idea. Also it opens up for bards being a more distinct charisma caster.

[@TheLikenessOfNormal]

Constitution sorcerers. Because you haven't thought out concentration checks.

[@purplecharmanderz2975]

@@TheLikenessOfNormal this honestly after doing full attempts of reverse engineering the system's design - is about the only reason you'd be expecting any remote kind of issues. And with what the system expects - its going to be at most a 15% difference from expectation - turning a 65% expectation to an 80%. (mind you this system has some really dumb assumptions it makes...) damage would scale as expected, bulk may technically go above what's expected for a caster - but not enough to break any of the bulk assumptions the system has for a party's bulk as a whole. And not enough to really shift balance too drastically.

[@adriel8498]

​​@@purplecharmanderz2975t gets really broken when you take multiclass into account. I mean, a runeknight casting firebolt, ray of frost, or command (divine soul sorcerer) using constitution? Asking for con, instead of cha to multiclass into and out of it? And all of that is only with 1 level dip.

[@abdallahhakeem5185]

​@@TheLikenessOfNormalYou really are overestimating the buff to con checks from this, just off of what the stat priority already was, and off of how the system works anyway.

[@Greenweeper1387]

I’m all for that, because too many of the classes are charisma casters and I don’t like it.

[@yoshitheonly]

"Yeah no that didn't hurt. Have you ever survived accidentally blasting your bedroom apart on three different occasions? I have."

[@patrickkeller2193]

it's not your magic making you more sturdy, it's your sturdy making you more magical.

[@khepridixon2754]

The guy with a magic bloodline can inexplicably take more hits than a normal person? Congratulations, youre a main character

[@Midaspl]

Just add a blood mage, who uses CON for magic and does not have spell slots, but users Xd4 HP to cast a spell, where X is the level of a spell.

[@picklesandnori]

a tank caster sounds fun as hell honestly

[@Nuggette]

You wouldn't even be that insanely tanky since you are still working with d6 hit die and no armour proficiency, but I do agree it would make sorcs more interesting

[@Aeivious]

Probably best as a subclass like "Iron skin soul" -your spell modifier becomes con and your hit die becomes d10 if it is less than it. -you gain proficiency in light medium and heavy armor. Idk

[@theJennicat]

Cries in cleric

[@andrewhawkins6754]

Half-Orc Wizard/Cleric. It's fun.

[@yarion4774]

If you just want to antagonize your DM make a Warlock/Abjuration Wizard. Take Armour of Agathys, Shadow Armour Invocation and whatever else fits your fancy. Bonus Points for the feat that lets you get Compelled Duel. With the arcane ward you don't actually take damage, but Armor of Agathys will go off. Thus you don't lose Temp HP, just the Arcane Ward HP. As an Abjuration Wizard you also can just be annoying with Counterspell, Banishment or whatever you like that makes you a big target. You shield attacks, that seem powerful and Absorb Elements all elemental stuff. Higher Lvl Spells just make yourself even tankier. Biggest weakness is any kind of nonmagical ranged fire. Besides that you are an absolute nightmare to deal with and your DM will hate you. I don't know why anyone would want that but here you go. Tank Caster.

[@JS-tl7jp]

Pathfinder actually did this a bit with the Kineticist, their whole thing being channeling raw elements through their body, requiring great endurance. Quite liked the class in 1E, and the 2E version looks p sick

[@MrHodoAstartes]

2E Kineticist seems a bit simplified, mechanically. Taking out Burn for just action economy. And with all the elements having special options, it sure feels like a bunch of varieties. Having a Close Quarters tank caster who makes their own armor and dishes out all kinds of freaky damage sure is an asset. Running a Dwarven Metal Kineticist and it's a blast. An Elemental Blast, really.

[@imaplaygames633]

I've got a Nagaji air kineticist and he goes fast and eats... Dirt the DM is getting frequent critical hits, luckily our champion is an undying wall despite the crits so we're scraping by.

[@ryanb5127]

It’s not that magic surging through your body makes you sturdier, it’s that being sturdier let’s you handle a bigger surge

[@Shadow-gc6le]

Thats not how that works. Magic causes burden on the mind as you cant physically interact with the weave so you have to mentally interact with it. So making a con based sorcer would be entirely ignoring the mental cost of magic.

[@Darklinkftw12]

Yeah I think of it as the caster needs an even stronger body to contain the magic they wield, unlike casters who take their power from other sources.

[@shadowmancy9183]

That's called Psionics, and there's a whole subset of classes for that in previous editions of D&D and Pathfinder.

[@ryanb5127]

@@shadowmancy9183 not really, psionics are often depicted as being distinct from magic. I think sorcerers and their bloodlines stand separately from psionics that (I at least) often see as being more of an intelligence based mental ability

[@candypg1]

@@shadowmancy9183Not at all, what?

[@nathanaeltrimm2720]

I’ve always had the head cannon that “all spells can be cast as rituals” , furthermore, the way a wizards spells works is that by “memorizing” a spell a wizard is actually creating a 3d architecture of neurons in his brain that acts as a ritual that gets burned when the spell is cast, the somatic, material, and verbal components just finish and activate the ritual burning it out of the mind of the wizard making it necessary to rememorize their spells every time. The way a sorcerers spells work based on Cha is just because they have a special form of autism and their brains just naturally form these neural pathways for certain spells. It also helps explain kooky wizards because who wouldn’t be eccentric after that much self induced localized brain damage

[@blerggg4603]

I like the idea of the stronger your bloodline the higher your con thus increasing your magic potential making you a powerful mage

[@spencerruston406]

Sorcerer doing cardio to get their magic blood pumping harder coincidently gets pretty damn healthy.

[@BobTheGodly]

Using hp as "fuel" for your spells makes sense as well. Either in combat or as negative modifier to your constitution based of the previous days needs.

[@doesnotcomputegaming1913]

Blood hunter

[@tx7140]

lose 1 hp per level of spell you cast, and can use hp instead of sorcery points

[@patrickbuckley7259]

@@tx7140 Some OSR games do this with their casters. So it could work.

[@TheeOK1]

Shadowrun does this well. Still can get that buff wiznerd while burning yourself out with magic.

[@orcflesh3747]

I got the power of abs and rizz coursing through my veins.

[@Narinjas]

Harry SPotter / Mashle

[@mormacil]

Less rizz when pivoting away from that sweet charisma.

[@Gallacant]

The rizzard

[@ridgetmacaroni7015]

Lmao imagine a str based sorcerer 😂

[@AresFordwin]

Charisma. Cha-ris-ma. Cha-rizz-ma. Rizz.

[@offering9255]

The magic doesn’t make you sturdy but the thing that causes it does

[@KierePLassiter]

I've had this idea ever since. I've heard about the sorceress in Dungeons & Dragons. I can't believe someone finally said it.

[@gr1m720]

Charisma is more will power (and exerting it on the world and others) in a way, which is why paladins use it as well, it makes sense why sorcerer's would use charisma as well since it's more of a latent ability, while constitution is how hardy and resilient you are. Using this theory you could say wisdom, but that's more the connection you have to the world and understanding it

[@EmberAlexander-x5h]

Will power has a lot to do with how hardy and resilient you are mentally at least and very little to do with how good you are with people tbh

[@gr1m720]

@@EmberAlexander-x5h while yes will power is more of what you said (which makes sense in terms of charisma saving throws, where you are testing your mental constitution to being charmed), when you search up the definition of charisma "a divinely conferred power or talent." Pops up as a second meaning, as in, willpower plays part of a role in the whole of charisma works, but is only a subsection of sorts as a whole

[@Mira_Mira_0n_The_Wall]

I always got the idea that for Sorcerers, the more confident they are in their magical abilities the stronger their spells get. That's why Charisma makes sense. Kinda like "the power of believing in yourself".

[@Sky-dy4vn]

This is the only argument I've ever heard for this that I like. Love it actually

[@luclin92]

Hell this was the literal interpretation from the new dnd movie.

[@quincyking010]

But the problem with that is that they don't get the spellcasting power from confidence. It's usually based on bloodline. It's an inherent ability. U can't learn to become one It's not a choice. U just have innate magic

[@milamberarial]

@@quincyking010 The magic comes from the bloodline, yes, but how the magic functions is that the sorcerer is imposing their will on reality. (As opposed to a wizard who learns the "rules" of reality). That is from the first appearance of the sorcerer class in 3rd edition.

[@captainkiwi77]

@@quincyking010 the original source of the sorcerer’s magic, and it’s operating mechanism are two different things. Originating in the bloodline just means they were born with it, charisma shows that your ability to exercise your force of will allows you to harness that natural born power better.

[@alphalordewhatifer3295]

It would be great for roleplay to like say they've used a spell that is just a bit above their level and they are damaged by the backlash.

[@randomrants148]

That's what I am saying have spell damage you and your party with switch to constitution it would be fun.

[@TrixyTrixter]

@@randomrants148 Not party, because at that point the player themself become a problem for being there. Damage to self tho is definitely a balance point.

[@thesatelliteslickers907]

a spellcaster tank is an amazing concept

[@demilung]

My first thought was like a blood mage, so you're casting with your CON, but using stuff like metamagic gives you physical strain, like exhaustion or debuffs

[@Mataclysm]

Some sorcerers and warlocks used constitution in 4e. I had a hybrid swordmage/infernal pact warlock that was a lot of fun to play.

[@snedthedead]

You also still have a d6 hit die as a sorcerer, so while you would be more sturdy, you wouldnt be *that* sturdy

[@King_of_Clovers]

If the average hp a sorcerer has is 4 per level and you max out you CON you would be getting 9 hp per level or 180 hp at level 20. While after a quick google seach seems that the average is 161 hp.

[@snedthedead]

@@King_of_Clovers which isn't that much more than a d8 caster with a +3 to con(150 assuming 4.5 hp per level rolled) with the added detriment of not having any skills tied to their main stat

[@King_of_Clovers]

@@snedthedead I see that's a 30 hp deffences but the top 75% have around 180 hp. I understand that none of the skills are con based however... constation is always an important score for any character so that means that the only score the class needs is constation and assumeing that you put a 15 in con useing pointbuy or standerd aray you should have a 20 by level 12. You still have 2 other abilty score improve ments to put in other stats on top of what ever you had at level one so saying that the detriment of not having any skills tied to their main stat is just a weak aguement.

[@snedthedead]

​@@King_of_Clovers ok, so lets look at the math for a moment: d6 hit die has an average roll of 3.5. Assuming maxed constitution as that is all you have to worry about statistically, you get a +5 hp per level. Bringing your average hp per level to 8.5 at 20 that brings you to 172.5(173 because rounding up, including the 11 for first level) hp. This means you will gain, after first level, 1 more hp per level. As after doing the math, a d8 hit die caster would have 153.5(again rounding up to 154) hp at 20th level, giving a 19 point difference. Which, as i stated in my original comment, isnt that much. So what is your point here?

[@King_of_Clovers]

@@snedthedead My point was sense your main score is constation you only need to increese your constation and nothing else. This leads to you being able to put your points or ASIs in other things like dexterity or intilgence makeing a sorcerer extremly versitile sense they don't have to worry about charisma and constation but instead they just have to worry about constation. Only needing constation leads to you being able to focus on other stats.

[@Gusta_Gustav]

I want to use this rule, I don't want to be especially persuasive and deceptive and all that stuff when I play a character. Like yes a bonus is a bonus, but not all characters I have in mind that are sorcerers fit that image. I'd actually rather that they don't have it and be a bit more awkward in social encounters. But that's just how I like it myself.

[@superkobold54]

I often run into the same problem when making sorcerers and warlocks. It's not a perfect solution but what I've done is flavored their high charisma despite awkward nature as them being so awkward and nervous that people can't help but like or trust them.

[@Ruiso7]

Specially when the campain is more battle focused, like I don't want to be persuasive... I want them to die.

[@shadenox8164]

@@Ruiso7 Then you have nothing to worry about because CHA still does that. It'd be like complaining you don't want to carry a lot of stuff just make enemies die, that's what strength helps you do.

[@xanottertheelf653]

Your sturdy body creates the magic and allows you to harness it better

[@blorp2555]

I like the idea of a wild magic sorcerer needing to adjust physically to bear the weight of their power

[@TheCrayon]

In the defense of charisma-based magic for sorcerers, I like to think of charisma as a measure of how confident and connected someone is to themself as a person. So, as sorcerers rely on a sense of self to draw magic from, I think it makes a little more sense than it literally being tied to how tough you are.

[@kristiankemp1980]

That does kinda make sense, like the magic comes from your bloodline and so its based on your confidence in yourself to be able to channel the strength of you ancestors

[@SleepiAbyss]

I always thought of Charisma being like willpower, as Sorcerers need the willpower to enforce their magic upon reality.

[@kristiankemp1980]

@@SleepiAbyss yeah that works I guess its just up to interpretation, although wouldn't willpower be more wisdom or intelligence, as its basically strength of mind?

[@SleepiAbyss]

@@kristiankemp1980 Well, the way I see the three mental attributes is something along the lines of: Intelligence - sheer processing power. Retaining and understanding knowledge. Fast working minds and logical thinking. Wisdom - common sense, skills of observation, and gut feelings. It takes someone intelligent to tell you how to get through a locked door, and someone wise to tell you when you shouldn't. Charisma - willpower and sense of self. A charismatic character knows how people work and how to work people, so to speak. They have strong ideals (not to say non charismatic people don't), a high resolve, and the ability to use that resolve - whether that be convincing someone through persuasion, or using your sheer will and innate magic to bend reality. Sorry for the long winded comment but I like thinking about how game mechanics manifest in game worlds. I hope you enjoy reading it at the least!

[@kristiankemp1980]

@@SleepiAbyss that makes alot of sense, I think willpower as a thing is just confusing in dnd but I guess charisma is the best one for it

[@ChrissieBear]

Charisma is Constitution of the soul.

[@FenrirEX]

THIIIIIS! It’s why I’ve always thought sorcerers were a fantastic class for using CHA!

[@emberofeon4868]

Personally I love the idea of a strength based caster. Like a magical body builder. Flexing his muscles so hard that magic just decided to channel it's way through them

[@statton35]

Now I just have a vision of Major Armstrong from Fullmetal Alchemist just slinging magic every time he flexes

[@emberofeon4868]

@@statton35 exactly flexing a calf muscle to cast haste..or heck you could go all out and johnny bravo. That three stance flex he does with the grunts? That would be flavor city

[@DraconicWF]

Lore wise I imagine the reason sorcerers are charisma casters is because they speak with the weave to get their abilities. Like most classes will have gods or patrons or specific rituals or whatever in order to bind the weave to their bidding but the sorcerer is just chill with the weave which is why they can modify their spells while other classes can’t. It’s the best explanation I came up with

[@PentarchRise]

If you define charisma as force of will, which in a sense it is, then everything makes sense RAW

[@humongousswine8734]

Why would charisma be a force of will

[@flarenova6286]

​@@humongousswine8734It's force of personality/self, and the ability to apply it to the world

[@cruces1713]

​@@flarenova6286then monks should be cha based on not wisdom

[@flarenova6286]

@@cruces1713 Wisdom is perception of self and others, and I don't see how monk would draw from force of personality and not awareness of yourself and the world around you

[@loher4135]

I'm glad someone said it

[@silvertheelf]

ON THE OTHEROTHEROTHEROTHEROTHEROTHEROTHEROTHEROTHER… *5 millions years later*

[@joshy3614]

It doesn’t even have to be sturdy, it can symbolize luck, as hit points aren’t just physical bulk, but the ability and luck not to be heavily wounded by an attack or hazard, and I think it’s quite lucky to be born with sorcerous blood

[@nicholasthompson6152]

"this doesn't make sense" -proceeds explain why it totally makes sense.

[@kittydaddy2023]

My Sorcerer is no longer "the Face" He is now "the Body"

[@zedeles9929]

I’ve always liked the idea of a con based casting class that’s basically blood mages. Like the Canim from Codex of Alera

[@umkm2k]

4e had CON Warlocks and they're beasts.

[@ricon0suave]

Pathfinder has a fun class: The Kineticist. Instead of casting you make these elemental blasts, and you can empower them by taking on burn, which is recurring non-lethal damage. Later you get ways to make burn work for you.

[@Dreznin]

Also had the Half-Orc Scarred Witch archetype, but that later got errata'd back to the standard casting stat. I like how the Spheres of Power system allows you to build a Con caster with the Draining Casting drawback, making you like a blood mage. It's definitely a class fantasy that should exist.

[@DGenHero]

That's 1e. In 2e there is no burn.

[@torben22.16]

Also you are a powerful bloodline, being better to survive is way more like to have you be powerful, it makes soo much sense

[@lauschangriff]

Youre taking my charisma sorcerers from my cold dead hands

[@RPGFanboy14]

It would also gives them the distinction of being the best concentration caster baring one off subclasses like Bladesinger with the resilient con feat. Which is pretty neat. 100% always have been for this idea.

[@SolarFlairIsBestPony]

That's the problem though. Not the HP. The concentration. You're getting everything you want out of one stat. You can argue you'd want other stats for other things... but that's true of everyone. More stats is always good. But you don't need anything else, really. The Rogue example almost is a good argument balance wise, but you have to figure that with the Rogue's skillset and intentions... they want high wisdom or charisma too. Nearly invariably. They're the eyes of the party and they spot the liars... or they are the liars, getting out of bad situations their sneaking put them in. Its baked in. The pure constitution caster... just has everything needed in that stat. Nothing else really 'matters', its all just bonus. Especially if you have spells that let you lie better or hide better, et cetera. There's a reason Concentration isn't Intelligence based normally and this kind of takes it a bit further by throwing HP into it.

[@alexanderlea7882]

The distinction of being overpowered?

[@RPGFanboy14]

@@SolarFlairIsBestPony Rogues only need high dex. Most a rogue "needs" in either wisdom or charisma is 12-14 cause they have expertise out the wazoo in order to make up the difference. And often are only the party face if they don't have a charisma character. Sorcerers being con only gives them high con saves which, I'm not denying is strong, but is still balanced off the fact you can only concentrate on one spell at any given time. Are there some strong/overpowered concentration spells? Absolutely. But even having a high con saves isn't going to save you from a bad die roll. Yes you get everything you need out of a single stat, but that's no different than a Hexblade warlock/any charisma Gish that takes a dip. 🤷‍♂️ I don't think it's as big a deal as people make it out to be.

[@RPGFanboy14]

@@SolarFlairIsBestPony I'll also add that sorcerers would still need high dex, the overpowered stat in the game, in order to have a decent armor class and skills. As well as definitely not wanting to dump their other soft stats cause, need them saves/skills. It also makes multiclassing less appealing for sorcerers because nothing else in the game uses con as a main stat, save for barbarians with their unarmored defense which would be pretty funny actually.

[@joshuak6968]

Sorcerers already gain con save proficiency.

[@vale-1041]

I like the idea of a wild magic sorcerer using Constitution, think of it: it is a test and will of the body to control the outburst of magic, to let through only a little bit of power without releasing the floodgate that is their power

[@Lightoka]

I used the con stat for a wizard subclass called "star-crossed Wizard" The lore being that it sacrifices your life force. (The character was a Fairy who had an immortal lifespan though lol) It was really fun to see a contrast between the rest of the wizards I've had in previous campaigns.

[@turbogoblin8232]

I like to think of sorcerers using charisma as them having stronger control over their own magic. Like how it's all about confidence.

[@samthraxable]

I love how this video was made, very entertaining

[@fefnireindraer144]

Its not about your body structure, its about your force of personality to activate my sorcerer blood.

[@user-sl1wt1dv4y]

you could balance by lowering the additional starting/leveling hit points. you can also give penalties for exceeded casting, like self inflicted dmg or expending lots of hit points to cast spells, or vice versa spend spell slots/sorcery points to heal self

[@DoctorLawful]

I like having 2 spellcasting options for each full caster. Then players can choose 1 at character creation. Bard charisma/intelligence Cleric wisdom/charisma Druid wisdom/constitution Sorcerer charisma/constitution Warlock charisma/intelligence Wizard intelligence/wisdom

[@Evelyn-rb1zj]

Druids feel like they should be wisdom/intelligence too in my mind I feel like ranger fits the wis/con slightly better but honestly I feel like con casting only really fits well with sorcerer or a potential monk caster subclass if we ever get one so it's still not really vibing in my head Intelligence Warlock though is an option I'd absolutely give any game table and I'd love to play one day because I'm notorious for giving my warlocks good int because it fits the fantasy so well, Charisma Cleric would be interesting too they'd probably have more preacher vibes so that's something I'd definitely allow if asked about same with a Constitution Sorcerer. I'd be hesitant to allow a non intelligence wizard or non charisma bard but if given a good story based reason I'd be happy to explore the idea and I'd probably put druids and the half casters in the same category

[@Big-Shady]

I'm doing this from now on, that's dope

[@thedragonknight3600]

On that same hand as the last point, your body is gonna have to be able to manage all that arcane power flowing through your veins.

[@big_sis_moon]

Pathfinder had a mage class where the amount of blood you had determined your magical power, which led to mages being super bloated bloodsacks. This reminds me of that.

[@King_of_Clovers]

Heres the thing chrisma is not just how good you are at talking to people. It's how forceful your personality is. How strong you mind is. This is why you use it against possession and personality changes. It is starting to sound like wisdom now doesn't it? Here is way to think about it: Strength - Intelligence Dexterity - Wisdom Constation - Chrisma

[@SilverGhost0]

Doesn't it also prevent forceful teleportation?

[@King_of_Clovers]

@@SilverGhost0 Shhh, we don't talk about that part.

[@SilverGhost0]

@@King_of_Clovers Oh, sorry 🤫.

[@enochhappy4493]

This is a great idea especially if you consider there are buffing spells that increase your armor class some other things that sorcerers can use

[@purplecharmanderz2975]

gets even more interesting when you do a bit of digging into the system's design - and realize that surprisingly little would change in terms of direct power for a sorcerer (at worst, being 15% more likely to succeed concentration checks than the system realistically expected. Which given that system expectation didn't account for warcaster being a thing, isn't exactly new to the equation)

[@shadenox8164]

@@purplecharmanderz2975 Except they can then use dex as their secondary stat instead of balancing between it and con. This shit has a knock on effect.

[@purplecharmanderz2975]

@@shadenox8164 you mention this and its worth noting the game's systems were designed with that already in mind... CR for monsters is literally built assuming pcs had an average 14 con - something that the starting stat spread in standard array has had a tendency to run with the assumption they had mostly from the get go. given sorcerer's hit dice size they are below par at 14 con a bit, and don't ever get to a point that breaks out of those expectations even going higher - but this at best with system expectations gives you 1 additional ASI into dex over the normal expectations. (Since out of your 5 ASIs 2 were expected into charisma to bump a 16 to 20 asap. Leaving 3 expected to mostly be dumped into dex to handle the expected ac scaling... 1 is slightly debatable to con depending on how your stats were initally spread out, but the system's design kinda just assumes you won't invest past the 14) So even on that front... we aren't breaking out of expectations.

[@KeyMasterX]

For a Sorceror, this does make sense.

[@vampiricdodo]

To use more magic your body must be prepared for it. I kinda love this

[@sandmansleeps657]

Con is also connected to a spellcaster's concentration check, which could really break it if that was its hp, concentration, AND spell saves, spell attack, and possible bonus damage.

[@peterpan4038]

It's not as much of a difference in the first place. Because few players, regardless of class, really dumb their constitution stat. The jump from lets 12 to 18 isn't small, but a +3 (in this example) to concentration won't make or break the class.

[@apollosungod6673]

Oh no, god forbid sorcerer have something that really sets them apart from wizards so they can be on par with their int based counterparts

[@heilmodrhinnheimski]

⁠@@apollosungod6673The Tasha’s sorcerers are absolutely on par if not superior to most of their wizard counterparts.

[@apollosungod6673]

@@heilmodrhinnheimski are you referring to the Origin Spells feature or the subclasses and changes in general? Honestly, imo the only thing that seemed to get sorcerer vs wizard right was bg3.

[@alantyler5242]

I like the idea of introducing a metamagic option to use your HP to restore spell slots, lorewise you're literally pushing yourself beyond your means to cast a spell. The weave starts tearing you apart.

[@jefferydavidson5347]

“There’s no constitution casters. 🗣️ᴼⁿ ᵗʰᵉ ᵒᵗʰᵉʳ ʰᵃⁿᵈ Every class…”

[@eristrophe]

THANK YOU

[@menghao737]

We often treat mages like they're supposed to be glass cannons, but you also would have to assume that the more powerful body you have, the more powerful magic you could cast.

[@МихаилРозов-ю9п]

We urgently need a bloodmage-vampire.

[@notesmaker204]

My explanation for charisma being sorcerer's spellcasting ability is that it's the opposite. The life with magic changes you, usually involuntarily. Magic making you more influencial to other people is a fun thought process. Charisma is not their spellcasting ability, rather the spellcasting is their charisma ability.

[@wolfflamekindl9339]

Our house rules on Sorcerers: Sorcerers can choose to use Constitution for their spell Stat, but permanently lose access to any and all metamagic if they choose to multiclass. Additionally, your known spells are technically unknown until you cast them. If you know 4 spells, they're left blank until you cast a sorcerer spell, then it's added to the list as a known spell. Now you have 3 more spells to discover that you can cast as a sorcerer, discovering their innate power.

[@TheLikenessOfNormal]

Not enough of a nerf. Change concentration checks to intelligence or wisdom

[@MikaeruDaiTenshi]

@@TheLikenessOfNormal Why? If we argue that the average sorcer would have a Con-Modifier of 2 or 3, you'd essentially get only 3-2 more into that save result. Yes, even a 1 can change the difference, looking at Lv20, if your Save is either a +11 or +7 makes only su much a difference if the damage you receive is over 40, when you have to roll a result of 20 and higher to break your concentration. And you know what? For a sorcerer who does magic my instinct, it actually makes sense to better concentrate on your inner powers.

[@adriel8498]

Well 1 level in sorcerer and the rest in some martial seems really broken that way. No metamagic? Doesn't matter i'm not lvl 3 anyway, i'm fine with my ray of frost, lightning lure and ray of frost casting using constitution.

[@TheeOK1]

Why not have it so sorcerer's burn a bit if health when casting metamagic instead. You're just limiting what they can do, that nor really an option. Plus if I wanna gamble id just play wild surge.

[@MikaeruDaiTenshi]

@@adriel8498 I don't see how 1 Level in Sorcerer would be broken in any of those scenarios.

[@Panic_Pickle]

It’s not just tied to hp, it’s tied to con saves, one of the most common saves in the game, which also affects concentration checks

[@bragsaint7824]

My counter argument is rogue being attached to dex

[@insidechaos4913]

​​@@bragsaint7824my counter to that is con saves are directly related to maintenance of spells dex saves are only used for damage reduction or movement(for spells and effects like web). A con caster would be able to maintain concentration spells much easier and have a much higher health pools naturally. A sorc gets this effect by haveing proficiently in con saves naturally. Charisma is tide to one's one will and self recognition being as all chr saves relate to mindcontrol or forced plane shifting. For the class roles one clearly matters more and all classes want to have a high con so can't dump it but some classes can afford to dump dex If needed to.

[@bragsaint7824]

@@insidechaos4913 Would wisdom be more fitting for will and self recognition? Pretty sure monk uses wisdom for those kinda reasons and going on with that line of thought, a con user would be able to use magic because they can stomach the sheer control they would need over it, if even, look at wild magic. Sorcerers are immensely magical beings, having that magic in a body that isn't that magic, is going to mess with that body in more ways than one, someone of draconian descent might grow scales like in bg3, a wild magic user might have magic that has a wildly different color every time they case fireball, even then they can stomach such magic that they can still stomach enough control that they can make a silent fireball or have a two fireballs (I like fireball), and if they just so happen to be tanky with high concentration checks, that's fine! It's unique and sounds fun to roleplay, maybe cleric will have a run for its money.

[@insidechaos4913]

@bragsaint7824 when you think of someone and what they represent for themselves you think of there soul. Someone with a strong will always have a certain charm and thus charisma to themselves. Monks might be wise and have a strong will yes but they may not know how to directly use it and thus can have low charisma but be very good monks. In terms of useing magic itself they at least in lore seem to "feel" how to use magic and the weave and thus improve themselves and how to use it in the easiest way such as a wild magic may end up takeing "short cuts" and this makes them have the surges or a dragon sorc may just let it grow and lean how to tap into there own source more efficiently and thus it may lead them to growing scales to help them or as a side effect of casting spells

[@vladimirk7686]

​@@bragsaint7824rogue is weak. So it'd okay. Full casters are extremely strong already and a full caster with 20 con will be just the strongest class in the game.

[@earbitter]

This is why I love PF2E. Kineticist is designed as a spell caster style CON based build

[@ikkeheltvanlig]

I will never not want this to be a thing again

[@thutmosetoure1396]

I've always thought of charisma to be the stat that represents your soul. Which is why possession bane and banishment use charisma saves. But thinking about it from a mechanical perspective, if your character learns they have an other worldly lineage, it would be nice for your spells to be decent no matter what your original class was.

[@xyeona9624]

In my mind, the charisma represents the will power to control that magical energy that naturally comes from the sorcerer

[@howarddewing6617]

EXACTLY

[@FearlessCrusader100]

​@howarddewing6617 then they should cast off wisdom. Thats how you resist mind altering spells. Charisma has zero to do with force of will. Thats all wis or int. With bards it makes sense. But why would sorcery be impacted with how chatty you are? Are you having a discussion with mystra? Are you doing a persuasion roll to ask the weave politely to do stuff? This is why i like lost tradition from 3.5e. Theres a different way to do things. I had a troll necromancer that used con to cast and it was a super fun character that siphojed his own regenerating life force to fuel his necrotic magics. Opened up tons of avenues for play. Imagine how much fun a muscle wizard is? Throw on some buffs for a wizard with a greatclub and see him cast fist!

[@howarddewing6617]

@@FearlessCrusader100 "Are you doing a persuasion roll to politely ask the weave to do stuff?" Kinda! Yeah!

[@BinaryEvasion]

You are literally describing WIS, which is tied to Will saves. CHA is personality, likeability, and how you interact with others. It makes sense for a Warlock (due to how pacts work). It doesn't really make sense for Sorcs.

[@josephwilliams5292]

@@FearlessCrusader100resisting being cursed (bane) or possessed (ghosts “Possession” ability) or having your emotions forcibly altered (Calm Emotions) are all charisma saves. It’s not difficult to imagine a sorcerer’s struggle with their magic being more analogous to fighting against possession than resisting being charmed.

[@Dangerous_DM]

Bro has too many hands to comprehend

[@mrsandman8840]

your body has to be strong to handle the pure arcane power coursing through your veins

[@spellbreath2876]

Don't forget sorcerers still get a d6 for their hp pool, making them just as squishy as wizards

[@_Korinzu]

I like where that rabbit hole went. I shall be employing this soon.

[@sapphire--9375]

Once again, the limit is your creativity.

[@colleen6440]

A caster being Con based would be so insanely OP, since Casters already need Con for their concentration checks and HP.

[@zyfryth]

Kineticist from pathfinder: "Hold my deadly earth:"

[@aperson-lr9wd]

It’s more like your storing magic/mana in your bones

[@magnusberner]

I just like to say that wisdom is the most important stat because of perception

[@luisnoriega2284]

I like the concept of a Blood Mage with this mechanic

[@Hylebos75]

This change makes Raistlin shudder

[@G_DJ787]

It would be like how real life monks are so resilient because of that mind body connection which basically comes down to will power, i think that can be applied in a way to this as well.

[@janisir4529]

Persuasion is the most important skill.

[@AppImage]

It's not that it makes you more sturdy it's that you need to be more sturdy to handle it.