Contrapoints Returns (And She's Very Mad At Me)

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#contrapoints #drama

[@CharlieApples]

If Vaush isn’t a “real” trans ally, then who is? What level of support does someone have to have to be a _real_ ally?

[@HandOfVecna1188]

You have to be willing to ritually LowTierGod at the behest of any trans person, apparently.

[@psilocybinx4092]

Seriously, there's not a single other subject that Vaush appears to be more passionate about. He talks about it as much as Matt Walsh, except on the correct side of things.

[@leahsanders798]

That's an issue with allyship, especially in online discourse. Ask ten people, get ten somewhat similar, but not really (and 4 are incoherent), answers. In a world where most people are just trying to keep their head above water, it's a lot.

[@thomaslance5428]

Monty Python made this point in Life of Brian decades ago. On the left, you must be doctrinally pure, or you're cast out or a new sect is created.

[@Drakid13Re3kt]

gotta be such a trans ally that you just become trans

[@Grace-tg4oy]

"Vaush, who is not trans." Vaush you have the opportunity to do the funniest thing in your career right now.

[@Grace-tg4oy]

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS A JOKE I DON'T THINK NOR DO I WANT TO IMPLY THAT TRANS PEOPLE ONLY COME OUT FOR OPPORTUNISTIC REASONS

[@Necroskull388]

Oh god that would be legendary. It would be great to see all the terminally online wokescolds IMMEDIATELY turn around and start misgendering and deadnaming her.

[@BleedForTheWorld]

Lol even my problematic ass couldn't come up with this. He should do it for the lulz.

[@kosherpickle2598]

Honestly he's gender abolitionist so it's really just one logical leap to NB

[@SophisticatedBanjo]

Vaush has been AFAB the whole time, he's just waiting for the critical moment to reveal his power level.

[@cityofevil3283]

I'm a cis woman and I'll be honest, I don't like Vaush's ironic misogyny. However, you cannot say Vaush doesn't care about trans issues. I've been subscribed to Vaush since 2019 and he is one of the most outspoken content creators regarding trans issues. Saying he doesn't care about trans issues is a blatant lie. It's gross and very disappointing coming from Contra.

[@twilotealeaf1714]

This exactly. The ironic misogyny I just ignore at this point because he doesn't rlly seem to want to change that. BUT To say that vaush only does it because he's some kind of close bigot is really bad faith. Its crazy that a year later this is the hill contra dies on. Her critics isn't all too off base, but nothing to burn bridges over...

[@Neon_Plasma]

Showing she's a really petty person. Really not liking this mean girl bs.

[@izunahosaki6133]

Same, I really am inconfortable by this type of jokes and wish he could stop. Ironic misogyny is still misogyny. But he's still an ally

[@PM-xu2nq]

Yeah, I mean I'd have no problem with her just calling him a fucking dingus, cause it's not even untrue, but the sheer uncharitability and dishonesty in her attack on Vaush is damages her credibility in my eyes. I'm not saying I think Vaush hadled everything perfectly at all times, just that the way Nat has framed what happened is patentedly untrue and unfair. Say what you want about Dingus, but he wouldn't be this vindictive and petty.

[@arcanefire7511]

​@@izunahosaki6133 A lot of ironic "misogyny" is jokes making fun of misogynists though, as satire. Im not against those, since they're literally against misogyny

[@tofubutcher7456]

Contra's worst crime is pronouncing Vaush instead of passive aggressively pronouncing it Vowsh which would have been much funnier

[@Anthropomorphic]

She should've spelled it "Vowsh" in writing, on screen, to make it ambiguous whether or not she's actually angry at him, or if it might be a high-effort joke.

[@cookie5535]

Her worst crime is grasping at straws to argue vaush and use the term mansplain unironically

[@SourSpark.]

@@rachael1479 What the fuck are you talking about? Please watch the video instead of just jumping into the comments section to defend your queen. Literally nothing Contra said supported her argument at all. Honestly you seem to be the one personally offended. Its crazy to me that you people keep trying to defend this shit, but you just won't engage with reality.

[@WiloPolis03]

@@cookie5535 Mainsplaining is a legitimate thing, I just don't think this was an example of that (as mixed as my feelings are on the whole situation)

[@xraptor94x]

​@@cookie5535 I didn't even knew someone would use it unironically. Also i kinda think it is funny (And as a trans women and feminist i think it is also offensive at the same time) that she basically implies that women do not do bad things, such as being a massive fu***** terf out of their own will. Like the whirlpool thing works on people which have either their monetary gain directly tied to their political leaning (But then i would say it is important to still scrutinize them for that since they will lead to other people falling into it) or people with no power who basically fell for trickery (Cryptobros are a example of that). But as woosh pointed out, none of them can be applied to Rowling. She has power. She has money. But the money and power does not come from her political views. Her political views are willful and independent thoughts.

[@thesilentcomposer1278]

I love Contra and loved the video overall but I thought her rant about Vaush was really out of place and it honestly shocked me that she accused him of only pretending to care about trans people so he can make edgy jokes. Very odd thing to say

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

Contra is a CIA plant whose mission is to undermine the left. I told you all this years ago when she was only picking on the alt-right, and only the ones that were kind of economically leftist.

[@drewmarteny1495]

True

[@Greyfox_.]

Just seems like big mad. He was right and she doesnt have a real defense against it so its just reeeee which is pretty sad.

[@danihk2872]

yea i was really taken aback with how pissed she sounded about online drama compared to her usual ironically detached tone

[@AwkwardPain]

Then at the end basically giving JKR a pass and saying 'she has a point' while using him as the reference.

[@dinosmash69]

Contra saying Vaush doesn't care about trans issues is fucking disgusting. Even if you disagree on how he handled the ironic misogyny drama, to say that he doesn't care about the issue that he has positively talked about for 100's or even 1000's of hours, cultivating a heavily disproportionate trans audience in the process of his advocacy is frankly terrible. He was one of the first major cis ally to talk about the genocidal rhetoric pointed towards trans people around the world.

[@Metallijosh100]

Vaush and Hasan have done so much for my personal growth and trans *activism* (used loosely as it's mostly twitter arguments) than anything else put together. Crazy to think he doesn't care that's wild.

[@SuperRat420]

He doesn't tho

[@L0neSiPh0n]

​@@SuperRat420 When you're desperate and feel the need to respond but have no arguments whatsoever

[@tyeklund7221]

@@SuperRat420 you can easily be disproven by just looking at Vaush’s catalogue of videos for less than 2 minutes

[@Fragenzeichenplatte]

​@@SuperRat420 Why are you lying? You are factually wrong.

[@james_6509]

What rubbed me the wrong way in this whole thing was when she said to not go harass Vaush because ~she's not like vaush~ all whilst bringing up old drama. Being petty is one thing but trying to act like you're not being petty when you clearly are is so strange. Not to mention that transphobes will be transphobic wether or not one *cis* person makes an - at worse - out of pocket joke about a billionaire. This is identical to the whole "bad trans people are the reason for transphobia" stuff that she's argued against

[@james_6509]

Also there are thousands of examples of women being held to higher standards than men, she did not need to bring up Vaush to talk about how misogyny is prevalent everywhere and is dangerous. This is such pure VDS 😭💀

[@Ragnaraq1]

I agree wholeheartedly. I also think it's similar to the Hogwarts Legacy boycott discourse. I think saying that leftists are bad for boycotting a game because it gives the right 'ammo' to attack us is silly. Although there's some nuance there with people saying others are 'bad' if they don't boycott it. So it goes both ways on the infighting.

[@Fragenzeichenplatte]

Not just millionaire, Rowling is a billionaire.

[@zephyr8072]

@ Ragnaraq Boycotting the game didn’t give ammo. Sparking drama, insulting people and sometimes viciously harassing them over not boycotting the game is what gave ammo, and Rowling _ate that up._ So did the usual crowd of conservative pundits too. By shackling the cause of trans rights to a boycott it gave them an opening to point to HL’s huge sales and go “See? Nobody cares about trans rights”.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​@@Ragnaraq1 I think I agree with your assessment, though it reminds me how frustrating it is to see that there's people who _still_ do not understand the point was to boycott the franchise, not just the game.

[@queen1990ful]

I don't care that they are "handmaid's" or whatever. The important thing is the impact of their actions and words. Some abusers were victims of abuse but that doesn't excuse their actions; it doesn't mean they aren't abusers.

[@sandrinelaberge8136]

Literally how people becomes abusers

[@KyrieFortune]

Honestly, she called her a handmaid for falling into terfery... weren't handmaids... sex slaves to the elite of a theocracy they had absolutely no hand in creating, what?

[@hatientacetlen4246]

Vaush's debate streams with transphobes were a big part of why I was prepared when family members started talking about non-binary people being trenders and fake etc. Video essays are good for theory but debate streams show the dumb arguments people make against trans rights and show how you can debunk them in a rhetorically effective way.

[@annaclarafenyo8185]

Non-binary people ARE fake. The public ones are ALL right-wingers trying to infiltrate leftist discourse (or perhaps the-opposite-of-outer-course) by putting on a wig and acting glam-rock. There is no psychological method to diagnose "non-binary", and there is no discriminatory system in place against non-binary. It's all fake.

[@zkapsh]

I feel the same way, I like watching educational videos about history, science or other topics. But I really like watching videos that debunk/debate conspiracies and other crazy ideas. From example going around the internet is the idea that feral people live in national forest. Now videos about psychology and such is fun but it's good to have videos that actively demonstrate why they are wrong.

[@MsScarletwings]

@@zkapsh my gateway out of literal rabid Christian fundamentalism and later on into progressive leftism literally started with videos of people slam dunking creationist arguments. Being such a nerd about biology saved my bi ass from a lot of internalized homophobia down the road!

[@zkapsh]

@scarletwings8301 hell yeah, what really help solidify my atheism and leftism was early debates 2013-2015 before the big anti-sjw shit. What really helped was Bill nye vs Ken ham. And it really helped me not fall for the bullshit ant-sjw shit, I by no means was like a anita Sarkisian fan, but when I would watch a video by one of them many obvious right wingers I would find myself agreeing more with the "sjw" but just find them cringy and over the top.

[@freedomofmusic2112]

💯that's the benefit of debates that conveniently never gets mentioned by anti "debate bro" types. The fact people in the audience get to learn rhetorical tools that allow them to argue more effectively for their positions is a benefit that has real world impact.

[@samiamrg7]

Countering anti-trans talking points and spreading positive information about trans people has been one of Vaush’s most consistent activities on this channel. The worst thing he has ever done is say, “Yeah, sometimes trans people are annoying on Twitter,” which isn’t exactly a hot take considering literally every demographic is annoying on Twitter.

[@ObliviousCrow]

Thats definitely not the worst thing he's done lmao. Let's all just forget about sexual harassment stuff from his days in the DGG community.

[@the5002ndpanda]

​@@ObliviousCrow *the worst thing he has done in regards to trans rights

[@claires1063]

​@@ObliviousCrow They were so obviously talking about trans stuff. No one cares about your attention seeking.

[@claires1063]

Trans people are definitely disproportionately annoying on Twitter.

[@kstar1489]

@@ObliviousCrow which he has apologized for and hasn’t repeated to anyone’s knowledge

[@RagtimeJackie]

I’ve followed Natalie from before she was Contrapoints, the video is overall pretty good but the “callout” section is pretty bad. I also really dislike the whole “you’re cis, stay in your lane” type argument as if Blaire White is a better trans advocate than Vaush.

[@PM-xu2nq]

What was she before ContraPoints? Did she have a previous channel?

[@strega0]

@@PM-xu2nq she had other content before she transitioned but not sure if you can still find videos of those

[@seliamila1005]

The stay in your lane bs is just a way to shut down opinion people don't like

[@XMysticHerox]

@@seliamila1005 No imo. It's worse. It's straight up bigotry. Even if shutting down certain opinions is the main purpose.

[@MaggaraMarine]

@@strega0 But a lot of those videos were on the ContraPoints channel (she has deleted all of her pre-transition videos on her channel). She also had an older channel that was named differently where she focused on religion.

[@moonpie197]

I feel like Contra was dragged so many times by the twitter mob she's kinda overcompensating now. That personal attack was a bit excessive regardless if she's right or not. I never liked "we're giving them ammo" types of arguments because it implies that threir "concerns" are actually genuine and not just used as an excuse for bigotry. We shouldn't play along with their narratives and instead focus on exposing their real motives which in reality is just an irrational lizard brain fear response to anything new and unfamiliar.

[@Junebug89]

"Giving them ammo" doesn't imply their concerns are genuine, it's saying that it's making their disingenuous cases easier to make to normies/undecided/uninformed people.

[@nas84payne]

@@Junebug89 Correct. People who know better, unfortunately get pulled into bullshit Twitter discourses. You see it all the time.

[@justalostlocal]

​@@Junebug89Except that's everything slightly passionate / emotional a person in minority group or an ally could do. They cherrypick and even fabricate rumours and behaviour to be turned into ammo. I genuinely don't think leftists self policing is the way to go about this. The goal is to show disingenuous the far right is to normies not to appease them.

[@kyokasanagi]

I do think vaush could have hadle it better but saying that vaush is not pro trans legitimately is wrong and it was clearly personal beef coming through.

[@MensHominis]

Fully agreed. I just think that it may have been unnecessary to clip this into a video of its own. At first I thought he would refrain from doing so to not boil up the drama, but maybe he just couldn’t leave the narrative to her.

[@itsirrelephantman]

Less than 2 minutes in a 2 hour vid and Vaush is so thin skinned he thinks the whole vid is about him lol Its a really good vid and a really worth watching. Vaush has just become a liability to the left. I don't even consider him left, hes just an American chauvinist lib. He literally thinks that America has been the most stabilising force in the world for the last 100yrs, which to anybody older than a 1yr old knows is complete and utter nonsense. America has stomped around the world funding anyone that will help keep to the American hegemony, and he thinks American hegemony is a good thing. He's a Dronie which is more or less the opposite of a Tankie. He's actively outing people off watching a really interesting vid just because he's butthurt. He cares about himself more than any movement.

[@Puerco-Potter]

​@@MensHominis he knows this video will have a lot of views. I don't think Vaush is evil or even wrong to defend himself. But he is not stupid, drama equals money. But yeah, both could have handled it better, Contra's video didn't need a diatribe about Vaush, she just could help herself I think...

[@TheN00bmonster]

Agreed

[@JaeEunA]

It’s one thing to disagree with Vaush’s angle and even make it a dealbreaker in direct allyship, but the near outright accusation he’s just a grifter that argues for my rights for clout is untenable.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

Absolutely. Vaush is a large part of the reason I learned Blaire White was a lying c*nt. When I started watching him near the end of 2020, his content helped pull me out of the anti-sjw rabbit hole.

[@greywolf7577]

These days, "grifter" means "Popular person I don't like". I rarely see any proof given toward the idea that a person doesn't believe what they say.

[@satanghost8856]

That all depends on whether you think misogyny is deal breaker, doesn't it?

[@poncho3326]

​@@satanghost8856 No it doesn't. As OP said, even if the misoginy is a deal breaker as far as direct engagement with Vaush go, it doesn't in any way put his honesty into question regarding his trans advocacy.

[@SnowCat-nu7gj]

​@@satanghost8856honest to god as someone whose had to deal with the brunt end of misogyny all of my life, people need to wake the fuck up and realise it's not 1970 anymore. Women have way more social power than ever before and mild misogyny against a fucking billionaire has a deeply different power dynamic. Misogyny is still an issue and is on the rise yes, but jkr isn't the one who's going to get hit with that because of her massive capital

[@superslowmojoe401]

I’m not a huge fan of vaush, but calling him a fake ally is uncalled for imo. I don’t like his ironic misogyny, but he’s a very outspoken trans ally

[@TheExterminatorGuy]

Yeah fr. It's like how he's a lot more liberal (queue laughtrack) with the usage of the r-slur. I'm personally not comfy with using it but it'd be absolutely WILD to accuse him of being ableist or a fake ally to the progressive movement or whatever. Yet people do that, and it drives me nuts lmao. I even agree with some peoples criticisms of Vaush on that point; and the ironic misogyny. All for about 30 seconds before the dive right off the edge and explain why in fact Vaush is a worse than conservatives

[@Etheralysium]

This is the correct take.

[@rdfm1549]

i think it's really hypocritical to be so hardlined on memery like that when she herself does things like invite transmedicalists to do voiceovers on her vids. like... ok NOW we're being black and white about this???? lol ok

[@WizWiteKnight]

"Hes an outspoken trans ally" Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh *hand waves motion* I mean... maybe, I guess...?

[@rdfm1549]

@@WizWiteKnight oh you're right. he's a known meek person and a fence sitter. 😆

[@Battalion_Lion]

I'm FTM and have been following Vaush since 2019. There has never been a single doubt that he supports trans rights. Part of what got me into his content is his unique style of trans advocacy.

[@garywebb2432]

@@Cabr1095 they maybe get tired of debating righties about reality

[@zeahhhh]

​@@Cabr1095 i don't know it just feels like people who are realistically on the same page arguing about personal issues and making it public, i'm not blaming any one specific person here i dont think anyone is a saint, its just frustrating to see, i get people are flawed but like come on, yes what they did was unacceptable, yes what they didnt wasnt the best response either, people can have different opinions on issues too while still supporting the general cause or whatever, i dont know just venting to the void here

[@stevenguitink5947]

@@Cabr1095 It's not something intrinsic to Leftist KZbinrs specifically. More a product of being an online content creator of any capacity IMO. I've been watching stuff like this since the Atheist KZbinrs of old and they were no better when it came to personal beefs.

[@HorstEwald]

What does FTM mean? (Another comment said MTF; is that the same?) Someone please enlighten me

[@stevenguitink5947]

@@HorstEwald FTM = female to male MTF = Male to female

[@francesfaux]

Its really sad to see contra do this, especially when she accuses vaush of only pretending to support trans rights so he can have a pass to be mean online or whatever, very upsetting

[@autumnfiinch]

Has she always been this whiny and immature?

[@danieltobin4498]

That accusation sounds like a confession from her

[@pastamondays1712]

As if you need a pass to be mean online. Vaush could grift for the right and make monumentally more money, while being even meaner than he is now

[@dusty_artichoke]

I think that Contra would take that conclusion back, we all know she's a little impulsive especially on twitter, deleting tweets hastily etc. I think this twitter drama just spilled over to her video essay and she's behaving kinda same as on that hell hole social site.

[@TheExterminatorGuy]

@@danieltobin4498 Really does tbh

[@emorycallihan238]

I'm trans and one of the very first Vaush subscribers (he had like 2 or 3k back then, the OGs will remember the pink anime girl and the black bg). He's literally the only streamer I watch. Why? Because I remember, through all the unpolish, and all the cringe, and all the times I didn't agree with him about this or that unimportant thing, he's ALWAYS been a vehement defender of my rights. It felt/feels so comforting to have a cis ally who will go to the front lines for you and put the target on their back. Vaush is a real trans ally. Fuck man. I'm so tired of this Leftist infighting, it's cringe every single time any of them do it. None of them are perfect but they act like 1 transgression is enough to blacklist you for life. I wish they'd calm down and get over it because they all have great things to say at least some of the time and I thought we left all this petty drama bs behind when we graduated high school.

[@asherroodcreel640]

Good name

[@2cleverbyhalf]

I have been watching Vaush since around the time you found his channel. I didn't realize why I was so attracted to his streaming and arguing style. And then I figured out I am an autistic person that missed diagnosis as a kid. It is through Vaush and Keffals that I figured this out because if they could be autistic and obviously compassionate and empathetic people, perhaps I am. The only reason I didn't seek a diagnosis before was because the idea that autistic people can't be empathetic. I see attacks on Keffals and Vaush as similar to those I have experienced my entire life. There are rules that neurotypicals have that we do not understand as autistic people. And it makes me so angry that Vaush is being bullied like this, because I have been bullied like this. The social rules that we don't understand because they are illogical. The petty crap that I can't wrap my mind around. Neurotypical people are often emotionally dishonest, and frankly incomprehensible in their lack of consistency. I see these attacks as attacks on the autistic community. Contra isn't attacking just Vaush. She is attacking everyone on the spectrum. And I have news for her, that is a larger percentage of trans people than it is neurotypicals, because if you're autistic you're more likely to be trans as well.

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

The front lines? Really? Is that what we're calling sitting in front of a microphone and babbling all day. lol

[@2cleverbyhalf]

@@dreamingrightnow1174 And Contra sits behind a camera and babbles about once a year. How much money has contra raised and given to trans folks? How many political campaigns has she activated her fans to work for? How many trans friendly politicians and judges has contra tried to get elected. Just a couple of weeks ago Vaush fans worked with a progressive organization to elect a judge in Minnesota, perhaps saving trans people from unjust laws passed to subvert their rights. Has contra gotten off her privileged arse and worked for anyone other than herself and her friends? I don't believe she has. She is too caught up in her fee fees and her ego. She makes entire videos about how people are just mean to her. I have lost complete respect for Natalie. She can't even back up her own opinions on twitter, constantly deleting crap she spews because that's who she is.

[@ДавідБорґ]

Adults act like this all the time. Even my national union's staff is like this, literally curbing the benefits of workers for petty ass reasons, because human beings are petty creatures. Just take a deep breath and keep at it. Dont take the high road either, like vaush said its ok to shame shameful behavior.

[@soroushmirghasemi623]

Contra saying Vaush doesn’t care about trans advocacy was honestly disgusting.

[@blah204]

Lol disgusting how?

[@Spyno41]

​@@blah204 Because it's not true

[@friendlyG771]

@@blah204 It's a lie.

[@astlxtlxr2761]

Well on practically all of his streams he talks about trans issues, pushes back on misinformation and transphobia, etc whilst providing a space for trans people. You don’t have to like the guy or his aesthetic but to paint him they way she does is kind of pathetic and petty. Really diminishes the perceived quality of her content.

[@JSmusiqalthinka]

She also implies that Anita Bryant (and JKR in turn) should not be thought of/treated as leaders of a hate movement, but rather puppets...which is untrue and infantilizing.

[@miswaridi4962]

Vaush has made dozens of trans talking points that were used by closeted trans kids to come out to their parents. He also has hundreds of hours of debating and destroying anti-trans talking points.His fan base literally won’t let an interview happen until they know the person’s pronouns. That alone is impressive even for a leftist. But on top of all that, he also makes casual videos about trans people and their lives. I remember when he made a voice-training video encouraging them to train even if they think they’ll never get where they want to be! It was extremely touching, and I have yet to see any other lefty streamers get this personal or have such genuine interactions…atleast at his size. Vaush doesn’t just argue for trans people politically, you can tell he has genuine care for the community and it’s reflected by his work. To call him a fake ally is laughable, and has caused me to lose a massive deal of respect for Contra.

[@Synapsidofficial]

Is it possible for us to say that Vaush genuinely cares about trans advocacy and say that his tweet was wrong?

[@Prometheus720]

Would you lose a great deal of respect for a Jew who cussed out Oskar Schindler for brown nosing a Nazi officer? I would not. I'm a teacher. I have to be able to mediate disagreements all the time without taking those disagreements to mean sweeping things about the people who have them. It is much more often about the environment and situation than about properties of the people themselves. Contra is probably terrified lately. Vaush admits several times that he is baffled at her behavior. Well, what changed? The US became a hotbed of anti-trans legislation that might end in serious danger for her. She needs to apologize for some of the things she said and did, but this really doesn't seem unreasonable given what she is facing. I'm stressed the fuck out and I'm cishet.

[@bluestone9857]

@@Synapsidofficial it is but that's not what contra said

[@Synapsidofficial]

@@bluestone9857 Yes, I'm well aware she said vaush doesn't care at all after that tweet. I'm saying we don't always have to take hardlined sides.

[@TehAnimationSparxx]

@@Synapsidofficial nobody here is defending the tweet though. It WAS misogynistic and it wasn't a good look, he's admitted this much himself. I personally cringed when I saw it, too, even knowing the extent of his progressive positions. Still, I don't think "this gives TERFs an excuse to come after us!!" was the right criticism, given that TERFs will be transphobic regardless of how polite we are to them. I think the best criticism was "this is misogynistic", which is enough by itself. But that's not what Contra said. She, in fact, followed it up with "you're not trans so how can you think you are correct" and then called him a "fake ally" who "only supports trans rights so he can be misogynistic", while he's consistently praised her content as a whole even while discussing this drama. Who's really taking the hardlined side here? 90% of Vaush fans are Contra fans, including myself, I've been watching her for longer possibly. We're just saying our respect for her has dropped a bit because of her disproportionate response, poor analysis & unnecessary idpol weaponisation. I thought she was intellectually way above this kind of petty bridge burning. And i'm not even getting into her incredibly salient solution to JK rowling's transphobic tirade being "lol just block her guys". I mean, this is a level of analysis WAY below her standard. I used to think Vaush is just too rude and self confident and that rubs people the wrong way in the online left. After seeing the professor flowers+Noah samson+FD Signifier drama, the Kat black drama and the Thoughtslime+LunaOi drama, I'm getting convinced more and more that it's not just that, it's also that online leftists will just hate him because he's loud, white and male at the same time. Which, speaking as a poc, is a goddamn shame. We're never getting anywhere as a political movement if this is the level of our disagreements within the movement.

[@benleon927]

Vaush, don't let any leftist call you a fake ally. As a trans person you are a valued ally and we are happy to have you defending us

[@Fragenzeichenplatte]

Vaush doesn't care if he's being attacked or blocked. He seems to be very self-confident and doesn't mind losing allies because he's always saying he's not there to make friends but to promote good ideas and equality.

[@benleon927]

@@Fragenzeichenplatte respect

[@amyh9512]

As a transwoman, Vaush is a true ally. It was disappointing for her to throw him under the bus. There were way more people on our side she could have thrown out there to criticized like lia thomas

[@nuniezjorge]

i heard when he declared himself bi, but trans? he's a true master of labels and tokens

[@asherroodcreel640]

​@@amyh9512 charrd tomas is my favorite though, his bloodborn analysis was beyond and thing else I've ever seen, can we through fundy off a cliff instead, he doesn't upload and was never more then alright

[@Hipoptrofobia]

I wish Vaush would consider the optics of making ironic misogynist jokes when talking about trans issues. That being said, there's probably no cis person who's more outspoken about trans rights than Vaush and saying he isn't an ally is ridiculous.

[@WiloPolis03]

This is what's frustrating about drama like this, good points can be made but things end up getting personal and going way overboard

[@nobleradical2158]

@Joe I don’t see the inherent problem with “hitting low” to a transphobic monster. To me, the problem is people who see it who don’t know who Vaush is being alienated by it.

[@JSmusiqalthinka]

He did. He made a video about it a year ago

[@MethSloth]

@Joe-gw9wh lmao you're so butthurt by the smallest joke

[@wynngwynn]

he's a misogynist and racist and not an ally.

[@xRickAstleyx]

if blocking jk rowling was effective, surely not having twitter at all would be even better! crazy how ive never had a twitter account yet i see her tweets constantly

[@PM-xu2nq]

This is an excellent point. I have never had a Twitter account and her rhetoric seeps into the media I consume regardless. Bitch knows how to make herself a trending topic. Honestly Nat's take seems to be very much just a personal solution. Like yeah Natalie, as an unreformed Tweetfiend, blocking people you dislike on the bird app makes life easier, however it's weird that you'd extrapolate that to a wider solution to the discourse when we all know you know better. If there were some way to make the media at large stop listening to her that would be effective, but even if every single one of your own followers blocked her, she'd still have shitloads of attention and plenty to be gassy about. Like it's a perfectly fine suggestion if you want your audience to stay sane, but don't act like it's a solution.

[@shiboatisuto]

I actually got comfortable with the idea of being trans because of Vaush. I used to be afraid of what I was and scared that it'd ruin my life. Obviously my life still isn't great because of the current world we live in but I'm happier, and I understand myself better. Thank you Vaush.

[@cookie5535]

Vaush is a better ally than Contra is every regard

[@DanJuega]

Happy for you

[@shiboatisuto]

@@DanJuega I appreciate the support

[@DanJuega]

@@shiboatisuto Nooo worries. Just keep being your best you.

[@nzephier]

Congrats and live your truth!

[@SamWeltzin]

I think the most frustrating thing about this is that she just blocked Vaush and didn't talk about it for a year, letting it fester into this absolutely spiteful take. It's gross. Like, I know the guy can be really pushy. I get that. I get blocking him. But leave it at that; he's just wrong about one thing, and the real enemy is still out there trying to destroy your very existence.

[@MsScarletwings]

People will literally destroy their political efficacy out of spite towards Vaush instead of going to therapy….

[@SamWeltzin]

@@MsScarletwings Yeah, it's wild.

[@quinnrosenberg3500]

At the same time, by the end of this video I feel like contra is absolving JK from all agency for her politics. JK has literally no incentive to be so publicly insane and wrong, and she isnt just a writer, she is a donor with politicians on speed dial. JK is Scotland's Peter Thiel, not some hapless dumbass who is easily ignored.

[@greenberry6019]

I think what's most infuriating is that nobody is talking about the fact that Contra has CATEGORICALLY made more misogynistic jokes than Vaush's. And yet the reason everyone is getting on his case is a misogynistic joke.

[@SamWeltzin]

@@greenberry6019 Yeah, but Contra's a woman so Oh wait, this is about the trans community being regarded as misogynistic. Well fuck.

[@Parmetheus]

It's like when a super conservative woman argues that women should be subservient and normal people respond with "Why should we care about your opinion? Get back to the kitchen" There's people out there that think using irony and joking like that makes you bad like actual misogynists?

[@themightymcb7310]

Makes me wonder how many of them haven't read A Modest Proposal. Or how many did and came away thinking the Irish eat babies.

[@dinosaysrawr]

I had someone scold me for cheekily misgendering cis transphobes on the grounds that it's "transphobic." Sigh. Lefties pick some of the nitpickiest hills to die on.

[@hanshintermann1551]

That one's a bit different though, because it's also a counterargument ("why should we listen to you telling us not to listen to you?"), not just a diss.

[@Parmetheus]

@@hanshintermann1551 The way I saw it was if JK's terf activism, which was applauded by the likes of Matt Walsh and Co., succeeds it's the same as the argument in my initial post because it will lead to a suppression of women's rights, which will silence feminists and women. That's why she should stfu as Vaush joked, right?

[@justalostlocal]

​@@hanshintermann1551It's a more direct example yes. He probably wanted to weaponise misogyny against Rowling in that simlar way but messed up. I just think Vaush didn't thought it through how even leftists don't realise JK Rowling is a huge misogynist TOO besides her being peak transphobic. Bigotry comes in a package.

[@holyleech2159]

The funniest shit is that she looked the angriest at the part about Vaush, in a vid filled with extreme transphobes.

[@eternalreturnal]

Yeah i noticed that too. And she brought it up twice..

[@julianbell9161]

That was so weird to me. She had more vitriol for Vowsh than for Anita Bryant

[@ignatzy]

Obviously. People are used to bigots acting accordingly. It’s more infuriating when someone with whom you generally share the same views says something stupid

[@Horus4302]

​@@ignatzy It was a joke. Jesus Christ, you lefties must be offended 24/7 by everything.

[@ananousous]

@@julianbell9161 Poking my head out of pocket here, but I think it the reason Vaush got more hate than Anita is due to a degree of misandry. I mean, let's take Ana Kasparian's recent debacle into account here too. She says some bigoted sht and has *Matt Walsh* on her side, and leftists come together to reach out to her through compassion and kind concern (some diving head-first into the river to pull her out) Vaush says some stupid sht (yea it was stupid, even if it's not stupid from a certain perspective, it was still stupid) and people just demonize him. Coming back a year later to get round two of punches and death threats in... jfc

[@beeppboopp]

My biggest problem with all this drama, is with how petty it is. Do I disagree with Vaush on some things? Well, yeah. I'm not going to 100% agree with everything that some streamer says. ...but are any of those disagreements big enough that I would fully just, try to shove him away from the left in general? Or claim he's not ~actually~ helping trans people? No. The left has this huge problem of overanalyzing people's behaviors, and trying to force them out of leftist communities because of small, minute things that do not matter in the grand scheme of things. It's an edgy joke. Vaush is not doing anything that actively hurts the trans community. This is not how you build a community. This is not how you make the left an inclusive space. And this is certainly not how you get non-lefties to be more open to your ideas. This is what you do when you want to keep the left a small, tight-knit group of "in" people, who can have a "better than you" attitude over anyone who they have slight disagreements with. If you want the left to grow, to gain power, this really is not what you do. I really feel like a lot of lefties don't think you're allowed to have disagreements with people.

[@tabithal2977]

yeah its got the same type of feeling of the lefties who will do anything to prove they're not liberals

[@user-no7vv5gi2v]

I love how she lumps death threats and misogynistic insults together just to segue to vaush. How are those two things even comparable

[@Horus4302]

That really pissed me off. One was a lame joke, the other literal threats against JKs life. I haven't watched the full video, but I really hope she took at least as much time to talk about the people threatening JK as she talks about Voosh. But I doubt it.

[@AllTheArtsy]

@@Alias_Anybody that's not what she said. she just highlights that in activism, it's unsurprisingly common for even allies to resort to misogynistic threats. which is what vaush did. practicing misogyny against a bigoted woman is not the allyship to women that you think it is

[@Alias_Anybody]

@@AllTheArtsy He said it would be better if she shut up. Not that he'd fly to Scotland and gut her with a machete. I mean, you'd have to be super uncharitable to even call what he actually tweeted a threat. I feel like the intention should be clear here: Some women, like JKR who this is directed at, are terrible people, and for those women there should be no "slay queen" but "go home and rethink your life".

[@Necroskull388]

@@AllTheArtsyNobody here thinks that being misogynistic to JK Rowling is serious allyship. Vaush did it as an offhand joke in a tweet that didn’t even @ her. Elevating that to the level of “misogynistic threats” and insinuating that Vaush considers it “allyship to women” in the face of JKR actually materially contributing to trans-misogyny is deeply unserious behavior.

[@lissie3669]

Both are not condonable that’s why

[@shinyscizor12]

I like contra, but the fact that she will not only bring up what Kat did a year ago did, but also sees nothing wrong with it is kinda disgusting

[@boat1280]

You have the order of events factually wrong Vaush sperged out and said stupid shit about how Kat and other black women all want white dick, and THEN kat responded The VOD where this went down is still up

[@Neon_Plasma]

@@boat1280 You lost me at saying sperged like a braindead kiwifarm poster

[@wilsonlj7543]

What did kat do

[@melaniey.5596]

@@wilsonlj7543 she leaked private DMs she had with Vaush without his permission. Then as the drama worsened she revealed that they used to sext and trash talked Vaush’s d*ck, that’s sexual harassment. (Many people didn’t realize that’s sexual harassment as we still hold some internalized double standards in harassment in women to men, but for reference imagine a man revealed that he used to sext another public figure woman, without her permission, and stated trash talking her pussy. )

[@zephyr8072]

She shared intimate sexual details about Vaush online as a form of harassment.

[@mikebiggums1921]

The thing that sucks the most about this is that the Contrapoints video was actually really good. Lots of great arguments and research put in there to be able to effectively push back on TERF arguments and show people who are on the fence about trans issues how dishonest they're being. The 2 minute focus on Vaush didn't really fit the rest of the video.

[@koboDresden]

I think it fit well. She used calling out Vaush for his mistakes as an example and that was a good example. To be honest, even if she would be wrong, calling out Vaush for his perceived mistake is the right thing to do - hopefully with clearing up the misunderstanding. And of course calling out an ex-friend is a partly emotional issue so her example also presented the pitfalls of it. But that is part of the process, I guess.

[@lepkember6913]

@@koboDresdenthe issue for most isnt necessarily that she criticized Vaushes approach. If she believes that it was a bad way to advocate for trans rights, she has the right to say that. Hell, I even agree with her to a degree, I do believe that this kind of sexist comment, even if it was obviously ironic, can be counterproductive. But to say that Vaush doesnt care about trans rights is absolutely disingenuous. You can criticize someones approach to advocacy without accusing them automatically of not actually caring avout said cause.

[@koboDresden]

@@lepkember6913 Yeah, she obviously exaggerates. One harmful action in the context of trans advocacy doesn't mean he is transphobic. But he still somehow thinks that he inherently knows better than her. And in the rationale context he could be right, but questioning her experience? I think that is too much. He said multiple times that he is an empiricist so this would be the time to update his thinking about the constant ironic and sarcastic attitude. I know, that is his style and he is attached to it, but come one Vaush, you are not a 12 year old, don't normalise the refusal of emotional growth.

[@scslre]

@@koboDresden look, it's just harmless exaggeration, teehee. it's her thing xD

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​@@koboDresden And plenty of left-leaning white people think they know better than Candace Owens. I agree that generally speaking it's smart to hear out the voices of the actual marginalized people, but just because I'm trans doesn't mean I know more about all transgender issues than a cis person. I'm sure most of the people studying and writing the research papers aren't trans, even...

[@iidsch]

Contra's videos are great but when it comes to changing minds about trans issues Vaush has helped me immensely. And this is not to say that Contra is worse or anything, but Vaush's debates have taught me the arguments right-wingers use and how to counter them on the spot. To say that he's just a grifter or that he doesn't care about trans issues is just petty

[@cookie5535]

Contra is really bad at being a hypocritical bitch while also infantilizing women (like JK rowling) lol. Her content is not all that good

[@Her_Viscera]

It really is petty...

[@Feefa99]

I agree it's petty, when in her video argues similar strategies where used anyway. It's not just about trans issues, but generally about any fundamentalist thinking, some people just wants you dead, they don't care and information in age of the internet about truth is out there and it's hard to make arguments in debate when they still continue with spreading hateful ideas after debate. Ultra pacifism can't work every time same as being misogynistic, same as video essay won't work for Republicans. Diversity of tactics is needed and some people are just better in other strategies of persuasion. By my opinion it works when person is hit on personal level that bigotry which was done is really hurtful towards others, sometimes repeatedly. When Vaush said "buy guns", it's scary, I may disagree, but still understandable, because what else you can do when people like Matt Walsh openly are for excessive measures.

[@kingkat_]

same, vaush was the one who actually made my transphobia die. debate after debate, i always ended up telling myself "welp i was duped"

[@matthewodell9129]

I don't think petty is an apt descriptor. It's provably false, dishonest on her part, and spiteful. I guess petty might be in the Venn Diagram, but that's selling it short imo

[@FIGHT-R]

31:21 Haha wait she says Vaush is a misogynist, and then goes on to say right wing women aren’t smart enough to hold ideological views? Roflmao.

[@Maverick2736]

Contra: *makes massive drama over Vaush making a misogynist joke* Also Contra: *makes misogynist joke*

[@zephyr8072]

“It’s okay when I do it.”

[@veemie8148]

​@Zephyr she's just quirky like that idk 💀

[@quinnrosenberg3500]

​@@Evilaniouswhat is misogynistic is painting Scotland's Peter Thiel as a hapless dumbass driven by lady fee fees. The woman has politicians on speed dial, and donates to them.

[@panwp123]

​@@Maverick2736it wasnt even a misogynystic joke. It was just misogyny

[@sorryifoldcomment8596]

I'm confident saying that due to Vaush streaming so often, and covering stories & content involving trans issues constantly....at this point, Vaush has actually uploaded more hours of KZbin videos involving him defending trans people, attacking transphobes & their arguments, and covering the current attacks on trans rights & trans representation...than Contrapoints herself. I mean, no video essayist can compete, so that's not a dig on Contrapoints...only a dig on the claim that Vaush isn't a real ally. And it's not like Vaush wouldn't have his platform today if he hadn't uploaded so much content surrounding trans issues. It's a lot, but it still isn't the majority of his content. I've never felt like he was covering these topics just for a grift.

[@StuartAtkinson4467]

And frankly what is "grift" it has no functional point. If a person is "grifting" then they don't personally believe in the things they're saying.... concequentially grifting doesn't exist! Imaigine "grifting" in physics "A hollow ball painted black inside is thrown at a velocity of x with centre of mass y,z" "Huh I bet the inside of that ball is painted blue not black" Grifting public conversations are the MOST pointless overall because they don't have any bearing on what is being done! Maybe if you know the person and are interacting with them the PRIVATE conversations of motivations of these people would matter. But just as there's a line between advocacy for individuals and advocacy for systems/groups there's a cuttoff between productive work publicly and privately and "Are they grifting?" should never enter the ven diagram of "Lets debate this online".

[@neferiusnexus]

And I remember to this day that time Vaush fell for the id-pol points of that one tankie trans gal he debated... then a couple days later apologized on stream for doing so bad in that debate because he dropped the charitability too early once she started the Tiananmen Square Massacre denial. He promised to do better and as a trans woman I feel like he has... not to say he still isn't a giant edgelord lmao, but it takes real character to own up to one's mistakes AND strive to actually change for the better :)

[@hanshintermann1551]

Of course he's uploaded more HOURS. That is hardly the point here. Such things are not just measured in quantity. I mean, yes, Contra is in the wrong here, but what refutes her is not the amount of time Vaush has dedicated to this topic.

[@justalostlocal]

He and Hasan can both be wealthier and far, unimaginably meaner being right wing grifters, but suuuure Vaush's streaming non stop and doing charities for pennies of that sweet left wing grifting.

[@neildepressedtyson540]

@@StuartAtkinson4467 bro, a grifter is a swindler. It's s whole genre of crime on its own. Its not "when someone says things they don't believe."

[@Usagi393]

I am very excited to await Contra’s response in 2025

[@darryljack6612]

Nah, you are giving her not enough time. 2026 at the least.

[@julianbell9161]

She’s probably already responded on Twitter. If not, give it a day

[@theawesomewerewolf5084]

I have it on good authority that she’ll release it once The Winds of Winter is published.

[@Eibarwoman]

It'll be a "Why I left the left video" and she'll probably drag a half million people into the Republicans with her.

[@EmmanuelleVieyra]

@@julianbell9161 And give it 15 minutes after that for her to delete that Twitter response

[@joshdarragh492]

I’m not trans, but I am gay, and from what I’ve experienced, educated straight allies are so necessary for progress. I am pretty good at standing ground if I’m arguing with a homophobe, but at the end of the day, anything I say is discredited to their ears simply because I’m gay and “other” to them. The same is true for transphobes, while trans voices obviously matter, the people who have more bidding power are straight/cis allies in dismantling bigoted views.

[@lucasouza889]

and these are the people who are the least faithful to any movement, because theyre not partf of it,. you can grab on to them and tell yourself they care at the expense of throwing ACTUAL gay or trans people under the bus though.

[@nautica7781]

Maybe I read it wrong, but just so u know Vaush is pansexual, not straight :)

[@WiloPolis03]

@@nautica7781 I think OP was using this as an analogy, Vaush is a trans ally that's cis, similar to gay allies that are straight

[@nautica7781]

@@WiloPolis03 ah okay thanks for explaining! my reading comprehension skills are lacking :')

[@Pushing_Pixels]

@@lucasouza889 Because faithfulness is the most important thing? They can't possibly care? Thinking cis people care is throwing trans people under buses? I hope you're not out there trying to advocate trans issues, because you're probably doing more damage than good with your ideological puritanism and exclusionary approach to who can and can't defend LGBTQI+ people.

[@mophead1666]

After this and the whole Professor Flowers debacle, I think the internet keeps gaslighting the shit out of Vaush. That section where he thought he said "bully" or "harass" when in reality he said "shame" is indicative of that. Nevermind all the times he's been clipped.

[@dinosaysrawr]

I and others have observed that if almost any other Leftist creator had made the exact same joke at JK Rowling's expense or had sarcastically quipped about someone needing to be pestered into adopting the correct view, the backlash and uproar would've been noticeably less.

[@mophead1666]

@@dinosaysrawr So I'm not sure if her Twitter persona is different, but in her videos I could easily see Contra herself making a joke like that, or at least in a similar vein. She makes self-deprecating humor in her vids that is similar. In a video format, it could even come off as less mean, because you could play up a sarcastic tone. The reality is that Vaush is irreverent and can be mean, which doesn't fit with a lot of online leftist's aesthetic, even if he might be a stronger advocate. So many people are tricked by the "optics" of leftism instead of the actual positions. Just look at creators like DJMuel, Thought Slime, and especially Professor Flowers. The irony is that his white gamerbro personality is why he's great at converting chuds.

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

@@mophead1666 not to mention that Vaush is a white guy. It’s honestly kind of sad, but it’s an indicator that there’s still a lot of racism and misogyny in the case that both normal non political (or in internet terms “normie”) society, and right wing chuds, will trust Vaush more because he’s a masculine cisgender white guy, because if he where a POC or not cis, right wingers or possibly normies (subconsciously) watching him wouldn’t believe him, or not take them as seriously. Even Vaush has talked about this. I remember him saying something along the lines of (not a direct quote) “the reason I’m able to convince right wingers and normies better is because I’m a white guy. If you where up here being a POC, they’d just call you racial slurs and not take you as seriously as they would if it where a white person” I think he’s also explained that it’s one reason why he does debates, it’s because right wingers like that kind of stuff, AUTHORITY and POWER is all they worship. It doesn’t matter if they’re wrong or right, as long as they’re dominant and aggressive, reactionaries will believe it. It just so happens that Vaush is, thank god, a leftist, and right a LOT of the time.

[@Dante3214]

@@mophead1666 well said

[@AlienZizi]

@@mophead1666 deadass contra would make that joke in her fake girly voice and we would all eat it up

[@georgehoback3732]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought it was weird that she removed the agency from all right-wing women.

[@annaclarafenyo8185]

Right wing women have no agency.

[@Xeridanus]

I don't think she did. She just pointed out how their trauma lead to them making that decision. She didn't say all women who are traumatised this way become right-wing so it's not their fault. What she did say was that JK Rowling and Anita were both traumatised by men and chose to fling that back at trans women. But for me the main take away was that we should stop demonising terfs as much and go after the males in right wing spaces. Edit: A lot of people choosing to misinterpret this comment. Or do you not have agency either? What do you think the word chose means? I personally think Contra's point was to attack transphobic men more. They are the ones with the TV shows with giant budgets. Rowling has a twitter account and a flagging writing career.

[@jackiealexander92530]

@@Xeridanus guess that’s why she didn’t do the same for men, huh? Disgusting

[@Nate-nq4nl]

If that's what you got from the video omg-

[@HunterTracks]

​@@Xeridanus You can make the exact same argument about male transphobes. We're all products of our circumstances, that doesn't solely apply to terfs. Would you not agree that we should judge transphobes by the same metrics, regardless of gender?

[@timmysharp9572]

Calling out bad behavior; like when a friend sexually harasses someone?

[@nimrodery]

Or being intentionally vague so your argument can't be directly examined? Like being passive-aggressive?

[@MomsterGirl]

Obviously that's only an issue if the person who does it ISN'T a friend of Contra's, because that's a fantastic look!

[@veemie8148]

"Sexual harassment is dismissable if it's a trans woman of color doing it to a white cis guy" 💀

[@kaif-tube1692]

Going to have to be a centrist here. Long post incoming... I can see Contra's point about the ironic sexism being weaponized and can be too normalized. Let's not forget that racism on 4chan started as edgy ironic jokes. Edgy ironic jokes were VERY common on the internet overall at that time too. I saw it happen in real time (yes, I used to lurk 4chan, sue me). The argument was "these are so overtly racist, there's no way anyone would take these seriously, obviously we're joking." But we can all agree that they aren't joking now. Now obviously, 4chan isn't the same as "the left" but I think the parallels I see in an aspect between two different online groups can apply even if both groups are vastly different. I'm not sure it's wise to discredit the concern by just saying "I don't care," is all I'm saying. Also, Not sure what the significance is between directly telling your audience to "shame" someone vs "bully" or "harass." The result is the same, they're all going to flood messages to her about it. Sure, it's not as bad as telling them to dox or send death threats to her, but I don't really see the point in telling your audience to do anything at all, other than making yourself feel better. Being bombarded by a bunch of people isn't going to change someone's mind, it's going to make them upset at whoever sent the mass of messages no matter how logical or sound they are. Also, Vaush does this weird defense of "they do it too" when, at best, that just means they're also bad? Sounds like a whataboutism to me. But yeah, Contra takes it a bit too far with interpreting a Twitter spat as believing Vaush isn't genuine about his trans advocacy. It feels weirdly too personal for Contra and I can't say why without speculating, so I won't. Also, it did feel very disingenuous of her to do the whole "I would never sink to that" bit. I know she's smart enough to know that's exactly what she was doing (and I'm almost sure that was the point, too. Especially when she does the whole sarcastic voice tone when she says it). At the same time, Vaush directly telling his audience to do something is different than an audience naturally doing something after a creator makes a negative video on someone. Pretty sure getting the direct thumbs up from the para-social authority figure to do the thing will make more people do it. That's the issue. But overall, the whole Vaush section makes the Contra video worse and came off less as an example of her calling out how using misogynistic jokes on transphobes isn't the best way to go about it, than as an excuse to vent about how much she hates Vaush. She could have use the same example without dragging all of the other things she doesn't like about Vaush into it. Just a quick "I criticized when this other leftwing person did X thing," was all that was needed for the video. The whole monologue about Vaush sending his audience, mansplaining, substance abuse, etc...was just venting, it should have been cut from the final video. Sidenote, the whole video could have used more edits, feels very "first/second draft-y" to me. So yeah, unironically, they're sort of both in the wrong here, imo.

[@WiloPolis03]

Agree with 100% of this, very well said!!

[@korexoxo]

Yup

[@kaif-tube1692]

@Hajna Hortobágyi I genuinely mean no offense, and I'm not usually this way, but you should probably run your post through a spell check. It was hard to read it with so many typos. But to your points, I'm not saying criticism is harassment, I was referring to when he directly told his viewers to spam her with "you're wrong" posts. People were going to do that regardless of what he said, but when he amplifies it by encouraging it, I think it only makes it worse. And while I agree that edgy jokes aren't going away anytime soon - in fact, I use them all the time in my personal life, but only with people I know - I'm skeptical of using them to make a different political point like the example Vaush did on Twitter. While it's true Rowling plays the victim regardless. It's not about her. It's about the people in the middle who might run into said post and aren't informed on who Vaush is and miss the point he's trying to make. Also, like I said, you sometimes can't tell when someone's being ironic or pretending to be ironic and just wants to be xyz... you act ironic long enough, and it stops being ironic and functionally no different from genuineness. As to the last point, I'm not sure what you're referring to.

[@lemonace6695]

Her vídeo isn't even about Vaush. Is just a small segment in an actual vídeo about so many other things that to even consider she is super angry about it is disingenuos.

[@kaif-tube1692]

@lemonace6695 Disengenious? How could you watch that section and NOT think she was upset about it? As I said, that part of the video was far longer than it needed to be. Think about why she brought it up in the context of the whole video; do you really think everything said about Vaush was needed to make the point she was trying to make? Or does it seem like she was venting slightly? Even if you don't agree with me, can't you at least see why I'd think that?

[@julianbell9161]

Not gonna lie, who ever edited the Idubs clip of the anti insult legitimately owned the shit out of Contra. That’s like being caught in a lie or caught with your pants down. She straight up pulled that shit on Vowsh and thought she could get away with it. This is the first time I’ve really ever seen Contra take a giant L like that

[@bluestone9857]

that was thaena

[@soulstealer5625]

Do you have a timestamp or link?

[@julianbell9161]

@@soulstealer5625go to like 47 minutes and scroll around til the screen shows Twitter

[@FullMetalPanicNL]

She also has a habit of doing constructive criticism of the left and then walking it back or deleting it like a coward.

[@SnowCat-nu7gj]

47:29

[@macaron3141592653]

I used to be as transphobic as the average American 4 years ago. It was your content and your content alone that made me more tolerant of the movement, a non cringey, funny, and logical approach to the issue is exactly what I needed to understand it.

[@Darth_Insidious]

Vaush's style of talking about these issues is what is needed to normalize it for some people. Pretentious video essays can't win everyone over.

[@Gabrielle3]

Don’t you think is weird that you needed a cis man to stop you being transphobic? Idk … maybe listen to the marginalized group and believe in them first? Idk… something to think about.

[@benefitsbrian9199]

@@Gabrielle3Sorry to burst your bubble but bigoted people don't often consider the feelings of those that they're bigoted against.

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

Oh, yay! Because Vaush you can tolerate trans people now.

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

@@Gabrielle3 Also, they're simply "tolerant" now. This is the end of line if you're on the Vaush train but instead of trying to direct his traffic to people with lived experience, he spends his time garnering more views trying to dismantle their message. But Vaush loves vaguely referring to transphobia on a regular basis, giving the impression he's "cool" with the queers.

[@NotThatJojjo]

We should fight JK Rowling at every chance we get, not "block her".

[@LuisManuelLealDias]

it's the same mild liberal gamergate reaction that got us into 2015 and Donald Trump. I remember this clearly, when "fainting couch" liberals were all eagerly creating "blocklists" and erecting walls around themselves. Then in 2016 they wondered why they couldn't reach moderate people (hint, they had blocked them all).

[@TheFavorista]

That conclusion felt like it lacked perspective beyond Twitter--it sounded like something that should be aimed at Twitter addicts, but it was not framed as aimed at Twitter addicts. I liked the beginning of the video with the Anita Bryant parallels but it lost focus later on, at least in part from reaching to work in the Vaush bits.

[@Idziemel1]

I think you misunderstood the point of the video. Natalie’s point was that you fight JK Rowling not by trying to make her understand thst she’s wrong, but by persuading the people who would have been otherwise influenced by her that you’re right. You don’t have to engage with JK Rowling to fight her. You only have to engage with her audience, as it’s their oponions that matter in the grand scheme of things, not Rowling’s.

[@FelisImpurrator]

​@@Idziemel1 A large part of that involves engaging with her though. It's the entire principle of, well, Vaush's channel: Engaging with reactionaries through debate is a very effective way of swaying the audience if you can make them look bad.

[@ezraoberheim1081]

Fighting with her on twitter literally just empowers her. That's the entire point.

[@isla25]

I am MTF trans and struggling, Vaush has been one of the few true and steadfast supporters of trans rights I have come across. Being Trans does not guarantee you our support, your words, actions and consistency matter. Thank you Vaush ✊🏻

[@xenosbreed]

SAME! I'm probably as far in my transition as I am because of him. I really don't care for a lot of his videos and R word usage but his trans videos really let me see the real me for the first time. Like dislike him fine, but to actively be attacking him as not a trans activist makes no sense to me

[@Elizabeth68337]

Same here too. You might be struggeling but you got this girl!

[@amalgamfrostpink5030]

He makes me feel safe.

[@somedudeok1451]

You are obviously one of Vuasch's army of bot accounts he uses to legitimize his claim that he actually ever did anything good. Reported!

[@GrumpyRobot75]

@@somedudeok1451 And you know for a fact it's a bot account? I think maybe your just here because Vaush hurt your feelings. Grow up dude!

[@Zeissus]

This is one of the more disappointing examples of leftist in fighting in recent memory purely because it truly doesnt feel as if the backlash received was warranted. Not to say misogyny is defensible but for what was said it feels like the level of reaction was more based on WHO said it rather than what was said in the joke.

[@Eveliane]

I showed his tweet to a few of my female friends who had no idea who vaush was and they felt it was so over the top that it was clearly a joke, because why would he support trans people, especially trans women, but also be a raging misogynist who hates women. Now, obviously this is an anecdote, but I can’t really look at this other than an unnecessary reaction to an obvious joke.

[@Ragnaraq1]

Literally lol everybody makes edgy jokes. Even if you don't jive with that particular joke, it does nothing to discount the absurd amount of good vaush does. This is all bullshit. Nobody truly believes that joke did as much harm as they say it did. Or they're actually delusional.

[@fachriranu1041]

Contra is lib not left.

[@WillTheGreatest]

​@@Eveliane guess he's one of those trans inclusionary radical misogynists lol /s

[@Zeissus]

@@Eveliane that's a good point though because i can say that its one of my least favorite things when it comes to the online left, there is so much focus on WHAT'S being said to the point that there's a complete dismissal of context and who is speaking/being spoken to. It genuinely feels like so many creators are more interested in purity testing than they are with affecting legitimate change. And thats why situations like this end up being blown so far out of proportion. not because legitimate harm was caused but because an obviously edgy joke wasn't received well by onlookers acting in bad faith.

[@NguyenNguyen-fq6ov]

Vaush is literally one of the strongest trans allies we have

[@PM-xu2nq]

​@Tight n Nerdy You may not like it but this is what peak allyship looks like.

[@luminyam6145]

Agree.

[@SuperRat420]

lol

[@mogscugg2639]

He eloped with my dad :(

[@ahamed4152]

therefore his sexism should get a pass

[@robiboo6928]

She said that Vaush is not a real advocate for transgender rights like what?

[@ZeroN1neZero]

The fact that people just brushed kat blaque’s massive fucking L under the rug makes me extensively angry. Absolutely crazy.

[@Cyanopteryx]

What did Kat do?

[@ZeroN1neZero]

@@Cyanopteryx she wrote some insane 10000 word dossier on vaush on twitter and leaked old dms they had. there may be more to it but i'm not remembering rn. it was really crazy.

[@stardust3176]

Saying that vaush doesn’t care about trans people is CRAZY.

[@psykobob222]

Totally nanners

[@ezraoberheim1081]

Good thing nobody said that! Contra didn't say anything of the sort. You can care deeply about trans people while also being a pretty shit ally.

[@bernardovivas8436]

Because he pays a lot of lip service to online trans activists?

[@2cleverbyhalf]

He cares about trans people a lot more than she cares about autistic people.

[@laughingduck1000]

@@psykobob222 time to make a 1 hour apology video

[@Eveliane]

It feels like 90% of the time, Vaush hate boils down to ableism against him for being autistic, purposely or not, and I actually respect vaush for not going down the idpol route because he definitely knows it

[@zesky6654]

This 100% this.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

He’s autistic? I’m autistic and I didn’t really see it. But yes there is a lot of ableist hate against us. People like Contra think we’re all a bunch of incel neo-Nazis.

[@allergiccookies6735]

as an autistic trans person its pretty terrifying to have trans people ready to hate us

[@miiiwu1999]

ABSOLUTELY THIS!!!!!

[@joshg9773]

Criticism of an autistic person’s actions online is not ableism

[@BenRigney480]

Contrapoints has more forgiveness for TERFs than she does for a fellow leftist, and it shows.

[@IamIK3]

Contra is a lib tbh. Like, not even in the "you're a leftist that I dislike, so I'll call you a liberal" kind of way, but like a Hilary Clinton voter style liberal.

[@BenRigney480]

@@IamIK3 ironic that she sent me down the Leftist Rabbithole

[@amyh9512]

As a transwoman, Vaush is a true ally. It was disappointing for her to throw him under the bus. There were way more people on our side she could have thrown out there to criticized like lia thomas

[@Necroskull388]

No joke, I’ve found it really concerning how lately Natalie has been going beyond empathy and straight into sympathy and identification with figures like JKR, Hillary Clinton, and Marie Antoinette. Very concerning behavior.

[@CrumCringle]

@@Necroskull388 She want's to be like them, that "Dignified refined prominent feminine figure" archetype.

[@Labyrinthfox]

As a product of divorce 6 times over, this feels like mom and dad fighting again. I’m gonna go play just dance really loud in the other room so that when I record my sick dance moves the sound of contra and Vaush can be heard faintly in the background.

[@muffinz1005]

Underrated comment

[@alexgreenall7300]

​@@muffinz1005 overrated reply

[@makuru.42]

@@alexgreenall7300 mom, stop fighting!

[@muffinz1005]

@@alexgreenall7300 I agree

[@Dagyo23]

6 times?!!

[@Dilettante15]

As a trans person, and a long-time fan of both Vaush and Contra, I have unironically gotten more thorough and helpful info about trans issues from Vaush than I have from Natalie. Calling him a fake ally is Peak Nanners.

[@malum9478]

OMG YOU CANT SAY THAT WORD

[@MsScarletwings]

@@malum9478 N🍌🍌🍌ERS

[@Vin_Venture896]

Tbh it’s not really surprising when all Natalie does is post 1 video a year and take 50k on Patreon every month while spending most of it on hair and makeup lmao. Her complaining about Vaush not taking criticism well is especially funny considering the mildest critique makes her a fucking drug addict lmao

[@puresh9072]

@@Vin_Venture896 That is really fucking insensitive to make fun of her for having substance abuse issues and not taking criticisms well

[@Vin_Venture896]

@@puresh9072 and? If that’s the angle of attack she wants to go for so be it. This would be like saying it’s ‘insensitive’ to mention that Amos Yee is a convicted p3do if he called Vaush a kiddy diddler lmao.

[@lawrence2986]

vaush may be one of the Very Select Few cis people who i genuinely trust on trans issues and who i know wont betray us or throw us to the side for a new issue, or for money, or for clout/reputation. its sad that a lot of trans people who only know contra are going to be prebiased against him and will miss the chance to know that atleast one cis person with a platform actually, genuinely cares about us

[@Haispawner]

How about pansexual people? Vaush is Pansexual, he just doesn't blare it in your face every time he is live. He can do a sex on you.

[@altfemboy3109]

J.K *Donates thousands of dollars to anti trans movements* Contra "let's just block her"

[@DilapidatedCat]

Non fans blocking her does sweet eff all anyway. Her fans won't block her. Her fans will continue to regurgitate everything she says This accomplishes nothing

[@ezrabrownstein3237]

Vaush absolutely needs to be more cognizant of the fact that you cannot communicate tone of voice or context easily over the internet. It gets him into troivle over and over again. That being said, calling him a grifter in trans issues just because he said something mean to women is ridiculous. He's one of the most outspoken trans allies on the entire internet, objectively.

[@shinkiro403]

Yeah, although it's not like she had never directly talked to him or couldn't, she actively decided to not seek further clarifications (even after his following response was transparently mild and lacking hostility)

[@megarat1777]

OR allistics need to literally stop thinking the world is theirs?

[@veemie8148]

Cut him some slack on reading tone, he's nd.

[@ezrabrownstein3237]

@@veemie8148 I'm not going to baby him. He's a grown ass man who absolutely knows how to handle himself in public especially due to his personal circumstances.

[@megarat1777]

@@ezrabrownstein3237 consider the fact that allistics have full and disproportionate control over what is considered “how to handle yourself in public”. there is a difference between something like yeah don’t say very hyperbolic stuff you dont believe, because it will reasonably so make people think your opinions are less nuanced than they are, and literally “learn to show your autism less. You cant expect us to treat you well if youre just gonna act Like That” (edit: clarified point like seconds after posting)

[@syndipirate2598]

Not gonna lie, the whole “I’m all for for criticizing anyone… unless I know them personally”, is some reeeeeeal lib idpol shit

[@jambott5520]

Its not lib idpol shit, its lunchtable politics. Its the politics by way of high school drama.

[@punkpundit9701]

Even using "mansplain" contra has never used such language and has been pretty thorough on her takedown of decade old buzzfeed psyop rhetoric which doesn't make a dent in the patriarchy. Not to even mention the disgusting and pathetic juxtaposition of michael knowles and the republican party being unreachable but JK fucking rowling a literal *billionaire* is merely a handmaiden getting sucked into a "whirpool of bigotry" give me a fucking break

[@autumnfiinch]

It makes her seem incredibly dishonest and petty imo

[@yoyohayli]

That's literally just human nature, though. Like, if you are close to someone, you are inevitably going to be more hesitant to burn that bridge through attacking them. It's weird NOT to feel that.

[@pooplord6688]

@@yoyohayli Yes. What we actually need to do is generalize that and be excellent to people - when someone says some really dumb shit, instead of going all in on them, imagine that was your very good friend and they are counting on you to set them straight without telling them that they're a bad person.

[@acs991]

I was enjoying the new Contrapoints video right up to the moment she starts going after Vaush. It detracted from the rest of the video, which has lots of good research in there. It’s a shame.

[@ellajid]

Her points were relevant to the video.

[@ManuelGuzmanPhotography]

The part that got me was the digs at the idea of debate when discussing The Witch Trials of JK. Like... that wasn't debate. Neither was the shit with Dave Rubin and his convos with Ben or Glenn Beck... that was a "kinder" version of the "debate panel" where Blaire let someone be openly transphobic to her.

[@hinasakukimi]

@@ellajid yeah because she stretched hard enough to make sure they were lmao.

[@NotimetoVero]

The amount of times I’ve said things like “Men feel empathy challenge, impossible difficulty” with NO ONE looking twice at it. The “women be quiet” joke wasn’t bad- the wrong person made it. JK get all of the empathy and understanding as humanly possible. But Vorsh get nothing of the sort. Doesn’t matter how relentless the harassment.

[@Matt-ov1qp]

Based af

[@alexantone5532]

Vorsh lmao

[@catsmom129]

Nah, you can like Vaush, and not like that particular joke

[@Hereticked]

Exactly. If someone goes "Yas Queen!" to broad digs at men and jokes at men's expense, but they can't extend any charity to someone who sometimes jokes about women (but also takes men, enby's and everyone else to task all the time), that's a good indication of misandry. A double standard that consistent is sexism, plain and simple.

[@zk5228]

My favorite take on this whole situation is that Vaush could've just written " _white_ women be quiet and start apologizing challenge" and avoided all controversy

[@duckheadbob]

There is literally dozens of hours straight of Vaush providing compelling and worthwhile arguements in favor of the Trans community. I think it's just pretty lame to take a single statement and amplify it's importance while disregarding the body of work someone has done for your demographic. It's disingenuous

[@Azzyzazz]

At this point there's kind of a reason the only left wing creator i watch is Vaush, i just can not trust anyone else. Vaush and his general orbit are the only people I've seen who actually have any kind of consistency and give a shit about actual politics instead of whingy drama.

[@stormburn1]

Similar boat, though I've personally taken to David Pakman after seeing his performance on the PBD podcast. He's more lib than left, but not by much and it's mostly in his style rather than his policy advocacy.

[@sypherthe297th2]

Intellectual honesty is a baseline requirement for me. It was what broke my 13 or so year old teen mind (I was interested in politics disturbingly young ) away from Republican politics in the 90s when I realized they were just lying. Newt Gingrich was my personal savior. . . because he was so transparent that it all clicked. After that it became far easier to decide political issues by looking past what people say to what they do and what the facts are.

[@ilzee_vk]

I was willing to forget that drama and just accept it's ok they don't like each other, but then Contra did a Noah Samsen and that was honestly so disgusting it made the rest of the video really hard to enjoy.

[@sypherthe297th2]

Ugh. I had kind of forgotten about that clown. The only thing that could make Contrapoints nonsense worse is if she did it with Noah Samsen's pedostache on her face. That mustache helps no one.

[@AhPook]

So, as a trans woman? Vaush is literally a real trans ally. Contra does not speak for the community as a whole, and honestly I'm ashamed of her behaviour toward Vaush.

[@leonodonoghueburke4276]

Jesus the language in this comment section, "deranged", "disgusting", "ashamed" ect. I'm usually the last person to hop on at people caring too much about inconsequential arguments, but do you think people might be putting a bit too much of themselves into this one?

[@monstermoo4191]

​@@leonodonoghueburke4276 I broke and searched for Vaush, for the first time in about a year, just to see if for once he'd pass up the chance to have some drama after someone mentioned him for 5 minutes in a 2 hour video... and this comment section tells me everything I already knew.

[@nienkehuijbens301]

@@leonodonoghueburke4276 this is a really classic case of internetism imo. I don't agree with contra here, but the internet has a really strong tendency of judging people as a whole based one one single action. Yeah, i know, cancel culture, but like you said, it's in the language we use. Someone says one thing that's kind of nasty and we just label the whole person as 'disgusting'. I've noticed this a lot all across the internet. It's like there's no space for people to be complex individuals. One tiny bad thing means all the good things just cancel out, apparantly. Not to say that that's everyone here, but i'm seeing a lot of it.

[@Struudeli]

​@@nienkehuijbens301 I've not really seen people say that Contra is disgusting or shameful as a person. Most people agree that her videos are great and she's advocating for trans people. Just that her actions here, inside that few minutes, are that. And that is in no way calling her out as a person, just these actions of hers (talking about this now and in this manner, not even trying to see the other side, not even mentioning the sexual harassment or Kat Blaque overally being inappropriate in the situation. Giving few clips of Vaush and not at all the whole story or his comprehensive opinion. Calling him out for not caring about trans people after everything he has done etc. I understand why she decided to not mention his autism but in this situation that could be important information, saying this as someone who has autism). I don't think almost anyone hates Contra or wishes anything bad on her. I think people are just very disappointed and I can see why.

[@WambwneD]

@@monstermoo4191 I mean he didn't start it though. Why put this on him instead of the person who dug up shit from a *year* ago lol.

[@linkkenni]

Natalie's videos helped give me words to things I never grasped. She helped changed my worldview. That's not going away. I am extremely frustrated that she joined the "I hate Vaush" brigade and insisted that he is just an idiot and simply "mansplaining" when what she is doing is simply refusing to hear anything from a man, especially a man who her friends had drama with. This infighting is stupid. I have some beefs with Vaush's points at times, he is stubborn and has little couth. But I have no doubt that he is trying to be an ally, to trans people, to people harmed by capitalism, to Ukrainains and their efforts to fight off a fascist takeover. That has to mean more than civility politics, petty drama, and infighting.

[@KandeeKush]

this

[@leftsmith280]

Vaush's 'bro logic' is embarrassing - he just skips to the part that hurts his feelings and ignores the message of the video.

[@iPsychlops]

💯

[@linkkenni]

@@leftsmith280 If the body of the video of a person who I respected specifically called me out and told the world my hours of work and advocacy towards our common cause meant nothing because of a cheap insult I used, I would have a hard time focusing on anything else either.

[@leftsmith280]

@@linkkenni You mean you also would refuse to apologize for the cheap insult and then bring up a person's past substance struggles to deflect from your cheap insult? Sound pretty shitty to me.

[@leosklein2573]

Honestly, speaking as an avid watcher of both Contra and Voosh, this is one of her weaker videos in recent memory. Not even because of the drama. I just think framing JKR as a "useful idiot" instead of what she is, an insanely wealthy and influential reactionary, is pretty irresponsible imo. And the ending, where she suggests we block her and move on, like she won't continue to do massive damage to the trans community if we stop looking, was a wild send off. Like if that's personally what's healthiest for her as a former fan, I totally get it and support that choice. But that shouldn't be a strategy broadly. It's so weird because her last video, The Hunger, might as well be a master class in both rhetoric and competent filmography; it so well done. She's extremely smart and talented, idk what happened here.

[@theshadowsagas3617]

It's almost like there's been a subtle but noticeable shift in her ideology lately towards being a trans-inclusionary radfem

[@hj-ct2qi]

i couldn't agree more. the rhetorical strength and depth of insight in her first JKR video is just not coming through in part two. she's also toned down the theatrics and expressiveness that used to be a massive part of her style - who knows why. and all this is not even acknowledging that she took the time out of an otherwise straightforward and focused video essay to dig up year-old personal drama with only the thinnest veneer of relevance to the rest of the text.

[@indianadan101]

Yeah, Shaun's video on Harry Potter also brought up how within the subtext, JK was always kinda bigoted all along. It was never a slow descent. She's fucking British and a fan of Margaret Thatcher lol. It's embarrassing to remove any agency from her or to act like she's a poor woman who got sucked into right wing extremism cause she was never a feminist in the first place.

[@catsmom129]

So, imo, Vaush made a tasteless joke and Contra make a few over the top comments in a generally excellent two-hour video. In my book, it’s a wash.

[@chrissketches4357]

The left constantly gate keeping other people on the same side is quite literally the most annoying and freaking infuriating thing imaginable.

[@ouwebrood497]

It makes my choices easier to be honest.

[@Tressa_]

As a cis woman, I don’t care at all for the tactical misogyny. But at the same time, I know that this fucking dingus actually does care and does more overall good for trans and women’s right than the men I know who do not use tactical misogyny. I have a large friend group and am one of the most outspoken for trans rights in this group and in daily interactions with family and other friends in large part due to Vaush. And him educating this community on talking points. So I absolutely disagree with Contra. She is just blindly is defending a friend.

[@RM_1917]

This is a very confusing use of “could care less”. Do you mean that you don’t care for it, or that your don’t care about it?

[@Tressa_]

@@RM_1917 *couldn’t/I don’t care for it at all/would prefer if it weren’t used as much.

[@satanghost8856]

Maybe, as a cis woman, you should have less tolerance for "tactical misogyny". Just a thought

[@rewdskwid]

​@@satanghost8856 fr, casual sexism is still sexism.

[@lapatti]

As a cis woman I don't agree with the thought that all the good that a person does automatically evens out the one arguably bad thing. That's a misstep on Vaush's part and I don't like the fact that the doubt that he could be wrong, doesn't even cross his mind. Instead he focuses on how rude Kat Blaque was with him (and by the way, I stopped following her after what happened with Vaush, so I agree that her behaviour was unacceptable) But I haven't finished to watch this video, so hopefully some self reflection comes up before it ends

[@rainingwhenidie]

Vaush's content helped me get out of the bullshit transmedicalist phase I had and he's always vehemently stood up for us but sure. He's not a real ally because he made a misogynistic joke that anyone with eyes can see is a joke. I thought the discourse was stupid when it popped up and I will say that he can be a bit too crass for my taste at times, but at least I always know he's gonna have trans people's backs. I'd rather have someone who actually gives a shit even if their delivery can seem harsh, than someone who only cares about optics. I like that Vaush is straightforward; he always says what's on his mind and being a little annoying is much better than being two-faced (like a lot of supposed trans allies). Like. I've been getting really tired of cis people lately. They've been getting on my last fucking nerve and I dread hearing what a lot of them have to say on trans issues bc a lot of it is bullshit. I have *not* gotten tired of Vaush bc he isn't like that. He's the last person that I would call a fake ally lmao.

[@HandOfVecna1188]

There's a lesson here folks. Nobody, no matter how based, is immune to VDS

[@Ragnaraq1]

TRUE lmao

[@PuppyFromLosAndes]

Not even Vaush himself, as evidenced by his still ongoing simping for Shoe.

[@Eibarwoman]

@@PuppyFromLosAndes If there was a reasonable thing to develop it over, it'd be simping over a person who was in love with Armored Septic, an alt-right lunatic who believes in every conspiracy.

[@GamerGeekThug]

What is vds?

[@PuppyFromLosAndes]

@@GamerGeekThug Vaush Derangement Syndrome /srs

[@CeliacAttack]

Contra infantilizing JK Rowling by describing her as a "handmaiden" getting sucked into a whirlpool rather than the leader of a hate movement is magnitudes more misogynistic than anything Vaush has ever said. I feel like she wouldn't have made those arguments in the past, but now I find myself second guessing all her other videos...

[@inurokuwarz]

Nobody made JK do anything, she chose to get into the ring, she chose to holler and cry when the blows she threw out got countered. She's a grown ass woman.

[@antonfleck5372]

It's also interesting how she argues against engaging with JK Rowling because she wouldn't enact legislation, while at the same time arguing to harass Knowles instead. Knowles does the exact same thing as Rowling. He isn't a politician, he is a propagandist spreading hate, just like Rowling does. The implication underpinning this argument is that we should direct our ire exclusively against right wing men instead of against them and right wing women, which can only be really argued for if you engage in benevolent sexism [Women are weak and uniquely deserving of protection]. Even ignoring the sexism, this way of operating literally gives rightwing women cover to spread hate by encouraging people to not publicly oppose their arguments [block them instead]. The public display to prove how "willing to call out misogyny on the left you are" literally adds to the credibility of terf complaints of public harassment. In short, it's strange to see somebody who is usually so got at analyzing arguments cram such bad stances in an otherwise good video and argue for the dumbest course of action at the end.

[@Archflip]

"Hey hey hey c’mahnn I’m a little handmaiden, I’m just a little handmaiden, nooo, it’s also my birthday"

[@wumpyjumps]

Her conclusion sounds like she can understand what can lead women down a right wing rabbit hole but not men, so JKR is a victim of circumstances while Vaush is actively bigoted because of his mistakes and is the enemy, same for Matt Walsh, rather than being misled.

[@jesterdays]

Oh god, she is infantilizing women like terfs do, but without the transphobia...

[@taylorbarnhart9882]

as a trans person, vaush is well beyond the best creator on this platform to address trans issues. every argument i’ve gotten into over my rights, i have used things i picked up from Vaush’s streams. you address transphobia in a way that makes me not scared of the world i live in, i don’t even get that from a lot of transgender creators.

[@mt.penguinmonster4144]

@@JBBost If the person in the tv box has good arguments, the status of parasocial relationships is irrelevant. Good arguments are good arguments

[@lookitsgordo]

@@JBBostNah, they're right.

[@23phoenixash]

I really like Hasan also. He's had really good takes imo, sometimes surprising me, because cisgender people usually don't understand trans issues so well. Personally, I don't think it's super complicated (but then I'm trans) because it really boils down to freedom of expression for me. People can debate whether or not I'm a "real" woman or not, but that debate is philosophical and metaphysical, as far as I'm concerned. I just want the freedom to be myself in this supposedly freest of countries.

[@curedtv1465]

@@JBBostwhat a useless waste of a comment

[@RomoFett_]

This comment is a little bit troubling. As a leftist, it is imperative that you NEVER have heroes! Plus, I feel you're making a mistake about the concept of truth. We cannot rationalize and argue away the people who hate us, because they are not operating on logic.

[@nzephier]

Vaush's talking points are how I've moved people over to being more supportive of trans issues. How can you say he's not an ally?

[@TreeDwellingShrimp]

No one would be able to say that if he didn't also use the movement as a shield for his misogyny. He thinks it's okay to be misogynistic towards certain women if they're bad people or transphobes in the name of the trans movement when he doesn't have to do that at all. You can argue with a bigot without becoming a bigot yourself. Being 'ironically misogynistic' or making misogynistic jokes (as I've heard others in this comment section call it while defending him) is not helping anyone. It's NOT a good look and only gives the terfs more material to paint themselves as victims being harassed by angry men that hate women, especially to people who don't actually understand what's going on. His motives wouldn't be questioned in that way if he didn't do any of that. From a third party perspective, he just reminds me of one of those fake leftist white guy feminists that drops the feminist part when it suits him. Allyship shouldn't grant people permission or give them the audacity (or even privilege) to be sexist/bigoted as long as it's against people you don't like. Go after terfs. Not for being women, but for their transphobia. And certainly don't use advocacy for a marginalized group as justification for it.

[@nzephier]

@GetOuttaHereWithThatBS I hear what you're saying, don't stoop to their level, especially in the name of allyship, but....hear me out...I hate jk Rowling and she pinned Matt Walsh as a feminist ally for coming to her defense. Anyone saying vaush isn't an ally to women, but Matt Walsh is, solely cause he's a terf too, SHOULD go back in the kitchen and shut up...

[@coffeecoder8162]

​@@TreeDwellingShrimp What a weirdly self crippling, essentialist take. First off using misogyny as a rhetorical device is not the same as being misogynistic. Language is a communication tool, words are used descriptively to get a point across. If you're going to choose to take everything that anyone says literally, you're probably going to look like a simpleton. Taking your same argument here. It would be wrong to swear at Hitler because saying bad words and being mean is wrong. Is there a point to calling someone out for 'bullying' a genocidal maniac? Not really, and you're likely to have others calling you out for coming to the defense of said maniac in this hypothetical. The same applies here. J.K.R. is a prominent figure in the increasingly genocidal anti-trans movement. Instead of pointing your efforts towards denouncing that, you'd rather scold someone who's made it abundantly clear their support for overall social justice and equal rights for all. Why? Stopping the Holocaust takes priority over chastising French for using naughty words.

[@braydenlanter95]

⁠​⁠@@TreeDwellingShrimphe’s said multiple times “yea you can criticize me for the ironic misogynistic joke, and I don’t defend it. But I think my joke was inconsequential, and by acting like the joke exposes a ‘grain of truth’ in the transphobic narrative then you’re actually validating the excuse that terfs say to justify their transphobia”.

[@Eevcee]

Did she just give JK Rowling a pass because she’s a woman? 😂 Poor little JK Rowling, she’s just a pawn? 💀

[@soulstealer5625]

Im starting to agree with a comment I saw further up; shes moving to radfem.

[@TSmith-yy3cc]

She's caught "the lib"... It's like tuberculosis but for the brain.

[@catsmom129]

No, she did not. She made a valid point, that we shouldn’t focus so much anger on individual women that we forget the powerful men who are actually in charge. JKR obviously has influence, but AFAIK she’s not crafting all this anti-trans legislation.

[@iwiffitthitotonacc4673]

@@catsmom129 Why focus so much anger on Vaush then? If JKR does not deserve anger despite funding and spreading hate, why does Vaush deserve anger when he's been advocating for trans rights for years?

[@catsmom129]

@@iwiffitthitotonacc4673 it was 2 minutes in a two hour video. Roughly 98% was about either Anita Bryant or JKR. I don’t see that as focusing her anger on Vaush.

[@chriiiiis]

I love how Contra doesn't mention Kat's novel about Vaush or her sexually harassing him.

[@deeplyconcerned9306]

I honestly can't remember what that was even about, but I remember that being pretty bad behavior from Kat.

[@robbiekop7]

Contra phoned Vaush I heard ☎...telling him she's more of a man 🚹 than he'll *ever* be

[@NyJoanzy]

Or that Kat releases the private DMs which exonerated Vaush but implicated her.

[@italucenaz]

Tbf to contra, it wasn't relevant to the video, but a lot of what she said about Vaush wasn't either and she mentioned either way

[@antoniojimenez7509]

@@italucenaz I mean the reason why she included it was to say that JK Rowling doesn’t check the people that go too far on her side but contra isn’t afraid of calling out trans people and cis allies that go too far

[@julianbell9161]

It feels like she wrote a whole script out with foreshadowing, and setting shit up, and connecting it all together, and it was awesome. But, then she just inserted a random drama bait segment that exists entirely so she can make a dig at Vaush. It felt so out of place, it didn’t even really connect to main point. It’s the weirdest thing I’ve ever seen in a Contra video. I also can’t get over the vitriol in her voice. She had more vitriol for Vaush than Anita Bryant

[@hj-ct2qi]

agreed. she seemed to be looking for any tangential moment where it might make some semblance of sense to bring it up. it ends up detracting from the video overall and making it apparent that she's still somehow seething over drama that was petty and overblown on her part in the first place.

[@AwkwardPain]

And it actually hurts her own argument for the rest of the video... VDS is a hell of a drug -_-'

[@endel12]

@@AwkwardPain Visual DialogScript is a decent programming language, how dare you

[@valqzx1144]

it really wasnt out of place at all??

[@prikkeldraad7112]

Vaush’s tweet to JK Rowling was basically the equivalent of a “women go back to the kitchen” joke, and that is just misogynist and he shouldn’t have said that. That being said, it’s obvious that Vaush’s supports trans rights, so that was just a mischaracterization of Contra’s part.

[@autumnfiinch]

It's sad because there used to be so much crossover between these two communities. I'm sure Natalie saw a chunk of subscribers leave her channel, and I bet that hurt her because she thought everyone would just take her side. The left needs to stop coddling trans women and infantilizing them with this attitude that they can do no wrong and need to be protected from the consequences of their actions. Anyone can be a piece of shit. Even your favorite ~*aesthetic*~ youtuber

[@woobiefuntime]

I agree.

[@pooplord6688]

I can't imagine any half-intelligent person unsubscribing from Natalie's channel for any reason other than blind, misdirected rage.

[@schattey2832]

Honestly I think there is still crossover, both vaush and contralateral good content even accepting bad takes (imo) from both sides and their interpersonal drama

[@DarkestMirrored]

The left needs to stop coddling men and infantilizing them with this attitude that they can do no wrong and need to be protected from the consequences of their actions.

[@autumnfiinch]

@pooplord66 I unsubbed from her. Not from blind, misdirected rage. She just comes across as a snob and her meangirl attitude rubs me the wrong way. No hate, no rage, just disappointment and mild annoyance.

[@classiclife7204]

Just being a thing isn't enough, especially if you're going to attack someone else's work allying a community and advocating for it every goddam day. Seriously, Vaush's content is 80% trans-related. All positive. Contrapoints makes one video a year. Okay, I'm exaggerating: two videos a year. I'm a little tired of Vaush's "aesthetic" bothering people. So he's loud and male: so what.

[@Ragnaraq1]

They hate his confident autism and refuse to admit it. I think his behavior clashes into everyone's ego. He's not even personal about it, he's just willing to tear down your arguments when you're wrong. And people get rly butthurt and blindsighted about it

[@autumnfiinch]

I used to laugh when people said the left treats men horribly. I'm glad I came across vaush's content because it's really opened my eyes to how DISGUSTING lefties are to other people, just because they're men. At this point, even Trans men I know are being treated like shit by other lefty queers. Its so fucking infuriating to see the casual disdain directed towards people who have done nothing wrong but have the audacity to be male or cis.

[@ananousous]

"I'm sorry I'm male! I'm sorry I'm white! I'm sorry I'm male! I'm sorry I'm white!"

[@Necroskull388]

@@Ragnaraq1I think this is a really important point. It’s not just misandry and anti-whiteness - ableism is also a major part of why people hate Vaush so much. These people are so ready to talk about the importance of accessibility and patience with disabled people, but they have exactly *zero* patience for autistic tendencies. No reaching out to communicate clearly and openly, no patience when they feel like his words have wronged them, just reflexively giving in to anger and developing a long-lasting personal enmity.

[@Qprah]

@@Necroskull388 Its an issue that people who are what used to be called high-functioning suffer. Their outward appearance doesn't come across as disabled enough for it to flag people's disabled person radar so they give the extra bit of empathy and patience. It's the ultimate paradox of masking; if you mask too much people treat you as neurotypical which can get you in trouble, but if you mask too little you get treated like you are in a much more severe state of mind than you actually are, which also gets you in trouble. I assume considering Vaush's comfort in social situations that he is more so in the latter category but does it in such a way that comes across as fairly neurotypical, which causese him to slip past people's radar and ends up causing them to treat him like this.

[@maxr8010]

Jk Rowling wasn’t pulled into the whirlpool. She IS the whirlpool.

[@roryokane5907]

Literally spat my drink out when he started doing the Star Wars opening. Totally caught me off guard.

[@sweetchocolatesecret]

It weird me out that Contra feels that Vaush is a grifter because he made a joke on Twitter. This completely bypasses the HOURS and HOURS of content making arguments in favor of trans people. She sees him as a cis, White guy, and thinks automatically because he disagrees with her that he can't advocate for trans rights.

[@amyh9512]

As a transwoman, Vaush is a true ally. It was disappointing for her to throw him under the bus. There were way more people on our side she could have thrown out there to criticized like lia thomas

[@zephyr8072]

It’s an arrogance shared by a certain subset of trans people. Or well really any minority. Sexuality, racial, you name it. “Because you aren’t X like me your opinion isn’t as valid and if we disagree I have the right to declare you fake and completely invalid.” It’s a fallacy borne of arrogant presumption that only personal experiences count. T irony is TERFs use this exact same fallacy to exclude and other transwomen.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​@@amyh9512 Another trans woman here, I agree.

[@LunaticTheCat]

Contra has terminally online brain disease

[@spheremode3271]

I really hated Vaush's original tweet, and I don't think he handled himself well after it was rted by JK and people started voicing disapproval. I even got banned from the subreddit for saying this. However, Contra claiming Vaush doesn't actually care about trans issues is disgusting. I am incredibly disappointed in her. People have said the exact same thing about her and it messed her up emotionally, so perhaps she should be more considerate when letting out her butthurt in a video. Awful, just reprehensible behavior on her part.

[@ravenwaves6785]

I didn't hate it, I thought it was funny, but I get how it can so easily be weaponized by bad faith actors. Having said that I think Vaush has been one of the loudest advocates for trans rights on YT in recent times. I think it's unfair to say he doesn't care.

[@spheremode3271]

@@ravenwaves6785 it's not just unfair, it's disgusting. She should be ashamed of herself for stooping that low because she got butthurt.

[@philwill0123]

Sometimes vaush is his own worst enemy by being unnecessary flippant in situations that may reflect badly.

[@stbananastein]

Yeah, it was such a tonally jarring moment in her essay, too. Should've been cut completely, seems like any outsider not familiar with the drama would be a little confused at its inclusion.

[@petrahavlickova3016]

Contra: Dont be polite to bigots Also Contra: How dare Vaush be impolite 🙄🙄🙄

[@Vosk21]

There are no bad tactics, only bad targets

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

​@@Vosk21 There are indeed bad tactics, but most of them involve wanton violence or literal terrorism. Like the Unabomber; mailing people pipebombs is definitely a bad tactic.

[@CelestialNerd336]

@@Vosk21 as soon as you want to achieve an end "by any means necessary", those means include becoming what you're fighting against.

[@igo9481]

"impolite" wasnt the problem. The problem was misogyny

[@petrahavlickova3016]

@@igo9481 how would you attack a woman without being misogynistic? No sarcasm I'm genuinely curious.

[@freedomofmusic2112]

Who am I to disagree with Contra? A trans woman. Here I thought JKR was a de facto leader of a hate movement, but according to Contra, JKR is actually too stupid to have her own political beliefs because she's a woman! 🤯 My mind is blown, before I would have considered that incredibly misogynist, but since a trans woman said it, apparently it must be true. Now that I think about it, I wonder what interesting things Blair White's said that I ignored in the past?

[@crabohato4954]

Ig Vaush did that 24 hour trans charity stream in order to keep saying edgy jokes

[@Necroskull388]

If there’s one thing Vaush is known for, it’s being committed to the bit.

[@Lambda_Ovine]

Contra: "I've always been happy to acknowledge that angry trans people on twitter sometimes take things too far" (Contra says in contrast to point out that you can in fact call out bad behavior within your group unlike JKR who is willing to side with bigots because she's herself one) Also contra immediately after : "as an example, let's talk about my drama with Vash and the edgy stupid joke he made, he's not trans and the crux of the drama have nothing to do with anything I've been talking about." What?

[@calmkat9032]

Yeah it is like a middle schooler with a list of points an essay has to be about. Not only a bad segue, but not even used to build the argument. Also, I'm not sure if youtube shows me people I might know more often, but its very funny that Roach Dogg Jrs are always in Vaush's comments. I feel like Vaush and Oneyplays have a similar kind of edginess is why.

[@russaz09]

I think there are two dynamics; there is the dynamic between Vaush and JK, and then the dynamic between Contra and Vaush. For the example Contra is trying to show someone being mean to a transphobic person (Vaush being ironically misogynistic towards JK), and then she is trying to show that she thinks that this was too mean so she spoke out about it. Whether or not you agree with the point I think it was coherently made; although it's entirely possible I missed something, I have been watching this and the contra video back and forth for like two days now so things are a bit jumbled in my brain.

[@dontask3613]

I fuckin really can't stand shit like this, honestly good on Vaush for the calm response to this. This clearly really bothered him, more than like 90% of the other drama hes been involved in and he had a very measured response on this.

[@connor5669]

50 minute rant on a 1 minute segment where he was rightly criticized for a misogynistic joke. He's taking this way too hard. Now he's the center of the discourse... again

[@princejellyfish3945]

@@connor5669 I literally laughed out loud when i saw he had already uploaded an hour about how he's being attacked

[@TheThingInMySink]

I like the part where she says JK Rowling, Posie Parker etc. are ''useful idiots'' implying that *because* they are women they are unable to have any agency over their own actions, like JK is out here being led around around like a blind dog on a leash because women are simply incapable of being evil by themselves.

[@squidiaj8729]

I can't name anyone who does more for trans advocacy online than vaush. Especially these last few months where it's been trans talk 24/7. I'm a trans man, and sometimes I have to take a break from his videos because it is exhausting hearing someone defend me so vigorously against heinous shit. Other times, I have to listen to him for hours to feel better that there are others that care. He is one of the main reasons I realized I was trans and gave me a real understanding of what trans people are. He has moved me further left, and he also changed my views on gun policy in the US. I've gotten much better at doing my own research because of him. If something happened to vaush, it would be a massive loss to the trans community, and it's upsetting that a big trans woman like contra would be so brain-dead about one of our biggest defenders. All she had to do was say that the misogyny tweet was dumb even if it was a joke, but jk Rowling is obviously worse. She could have acknowledged the dumb thing she hated and put focus on the thing that mattered, which is jk Rowling, causing actual negative impact to us. She didn't need to defend vaush. I feel like a cuck sucking vaush3s d1ck like this, and he doesn't need me to give him an ego boost, but everything I said is true, and he deserves more recognition for what he does.

[@PM-xu2nq]

Yeah I really respect that Vaush isn't bending over backwards to resurrect the bridge just because she's a popular, well-regarded lefttuber, and he's sticking to his guns despite the social and personal cost to him. This is why I trust him more. I mean, sure he's a dingus, but he's a dingus who's guided by his principles and doesn't waver, which is evidently hard to do when you're in the public eye, so he's a dingus I trust, and would be willing to extend charitability to over Contrapoints.

[@canadagoose8543]

I'd say conure

[@poncho3326]

​@@PM-xu2nq We could all use a little bit of principle dingus leftism

[@schenanigans]

Vaush got me into political canvassing and phonebanking, Contra gets me to login to twitter

[@sypherthe297th2]

Only one of those is good for society. . . and you.

[@MsScarletwings]

Vaush moved me away from truscum arguments and turned me into a gender abolitionist Contra makes absolutely sure i will never get a Twitter account

[@LaylaSpellwind]

As a trans person, I officially declare Vaush to be an ally of mine. His videos have helped my sanity many times over. *Layla Spellwind changed her allignment to ally of Vaush* Seriously, he's awesome. Much love to Vaush. This little piss throwing of Contrapoints is so dumb. She wants to burn a bridge with Vaush, why? What does that achieve? One less friend on the left? Great.... Good job....

[@Ray-mj5mj]

Low standards?

[@harrisonwebb8875]

This is one of the cringiest shit I've read sorry

[@darryljack6612]

We really back at this a whole year later, the whole thing that video essayists really cant just talk to someone directly face to face is not an exaggeration at this point

[@Necroskull388]

Seriously. She literally could have just chatted with Vaush in private, but instead she wants to rehash old drama. It doesn’t even feel like she’s advancing her position, she’s just reiterating it.

[@garywebb2432]

I love how in a nearly 2 hour video Contra found time to spend bringing up drama from over a year ago wtf? you mean to tell me she saved that stuff in the script for OVER A YEAR?? hell hath no fury like a scorned trans woman jesus

[@JSmusiqalthinka]

It also kinda bleeds into her overall argument and implies a different argument than what she seemed to be going for at first. The different argument which seems to be, "JKR and Anita Bryant are not leaders of a hate movement, they're just stooges of the hate movement so stop demonizing them so hard."

[@Ragnaraq1]

The funny thing is, she was never fucking scorned in the first place. She started this for no reason

[@Derpinaification]

To me its honestly just insane because she spent an hour of the video talking about all the ways that Anita Bryant was defeated a long time ago by some sometimes borderline tactics and had nothing to say except "Anita Bryant lost". But then she gets to Rowling and its some massive kid gloves "just block her and she won't have power" thing. It's so weird

[@Rolando_Cueva]

Anita Bryant wasn't defeated by arguing with her on Twitter.

[@160maverick]

J. K. Rowling wrote the most popular children's book series of all time, Anita Bryant was in orange juice commercials. The modern world is different and these aren't the exact same circumstances

[@Derpinaification]

@@160maverick This is...even more reason her conclusion is wrong? Her having worldwide influence to the point that she's able to influence other to hate trans people is even more reason that she has to be actively defeated and not just ignored

[@opheliaoftheripples9472]

I'm a black woman in Europe. Vaush debating right-wingers was the thing that saved me, after 20+ years of racist conditioning and self-hatred. He spoke the words I'd never been able to find, dunking on bigotry. He's a left-wing truth defender and I LOVE HIM. Contrapoints and her lies can go eat a bag of doo doo.

[@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je]

you have to go back

[@ashley-fk6dp]

yo where do u live holland .germany .france ? other countrys?

[@gilly_axolotl]

💜💜💜💜

[@basedfemboi9401]

That's as dumb as Europeans living in Africa go to your homes makes no sense

[@nas84payne]

Phew! You avoided going down the Candace Owens route 😄

[@CrumCringle]

I've felt more understood, validated, and learned more of how to advocate trans rights for myself and others more from Vaush than any other left influencer, including Contra. To say Vaush is a "fake ally" is just abhorently false, he's a better advocate for trans rights than most trans creators by sheer volume alone.

[@QosmicVoid]

The degree to which people will lie, bend, break, make excuses for the enemy, and go against every principle they claimed to uphold - JUST for the sake of throwing a cheap shot at Vaush will never make even the slightest bit of sense to me.

[@sandrinelaberge8136]

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but she even says that the way Megan treats the "enemy" is too soft and yet Contra does the same thing with JK. Rowling ... I was really upset she did this petty segment on Vaush, I just didn't finish the video.

[@Crawver]

I legitimately think there's something about autism that a lot of people seem to have this underlying revulsion to. I have a similar style of autism to Vaush, so I get similar things to him with people I work with, where people seem to draw some arbitrary line in the sand about why they don't like you, and when asked as to why they don't like you by a third party, they always seem to come up pretty empty for it. And it's always weird, I don't need to be liked. I just want a working relationship with my coworkers, nothing more. But something about me rubs them the wrong way so hard, in a way they can't articulate that they seem to go out of their way to make any working relationship that much more stressful. And my experiences seem to align a lot with what Vaush goes through with online creators. Is it the confident brashness without a certain social subtlety that makes the pill go down easier? Is it the ease of going into quite sticky hypotheticals and subjects to understand the underlying issue, when most want to just write the whole thing off as wrong and leave it there? I legitimately want to know and understand what it is that makes people not just dislike Vaush, but make a point out of trying to hurt him, because it does seem to be a thing that floats around men like him, seemingly for no reason, and I'm only left thinking it's something about the way someone with autism acts, that someone with autism will never get because they have autism.

[@SnowCat-nu7gj]

​@@Crawverhonestly I second this and expand. Unironically vaush is a queer disabled content creator and his disabilities visibly effect his out put. He's talked about how his bipolar effects everything too. The infamous thought slime stream while he doesn't defend it himself, was also clearly a guy with bipolar having an episode. As mental health advocism has increased I think there's been some what of a woobification of it. Being mentally ill went from invoking something like schizophrenia to invoking anxiety and depression which are far less scary to conceptualise and deal with. And while I'm glad those conditions are getting attention, I think a lot of people miss out on the fact that being supportive of mental health means being able to deal with the more scary conditions too. Sometimes severe mental illness is going to make you an asshole because you don't know what you're doing. I also think a lot of this is biphobia too. These fuckers love to idpol but bisexuality for whatever reason doesn't exist for them. We saw it with Lindsay Ellis too. Vaush is gay. Not because he sleeps with trans women but because he sleeps with men.

[@ticker0157]

Much like physics, VDS is a law of the universe evidently

[@Hereticked]

The more I see of this behavior, the more I believe there's genuine misandry at the root of it. Vaush is a thoughtful, articulate, outspoken voice for the left. He unambiguously likes being a guy and advocates for better outreach to men by the left (a position that gets much scorn and push-back with absolutely no rational justification.) Increasingly, I think some cis women and trans women with deeply rooted misandry, and even some self-hating guys, can't listen to a thing Vaush says without seeing red and losing their minds. These people will "Yas Queen!" broad digs at men but ignore Vaush's years of leftist advocacy over the occasional stupid joke about women. A double standard that consistent is sexism, plain and simple.

[@beelzebublovers5809]

Okay but Natalie’s video talked about how politely convincing bigots isn’t always necessary or expedient. And she affirms that the way Anita Bryant was treated was a good thing. That she needed to be defeated. Even though she ACKNOWLEDGED that Anita was threatened, mailed disgusting material, and literally physically attacked with a pie. But Vaush is somehow wrong for being a little mean to Joanne? Like Joanne needs to be defeated. We all agree on that. Even Natalie agrees on that. So why was Vaush wrong, even if he was a little misogynistic? By the logic of her video that’s the right thing to do anyway

[@Fragenzeichenplatte]

Because she doesn't like Vaush and he's a white man therefore it's bad when he does it.

[@hermitcrabof4144]

Did you finish the video? At the end Contra answers this question. Anita Bryant was treated like the big bad antagonist to gay rights which, while she was awful, wasn’t accurate. And certain gay rights activists were really sexist to her, which was criticized by lesbians at the time. The same is true of JK Rowling. She’s not the big bad antagonist of trans rights. Vaush being sexist to her on twitter literally helps nothing and isn’t activism. The point is that people should work to actually fight transphobic legislation.

[@Kazoo_man64]

@@hermitcrabof4144 first of all, he didnt even @ her, it was just a nothing tweet he prolly posted on the toilet. Not everything he does has to be a tactical form of activism. Second, JK will literally screenshot ANYONE to affirm her shitty views. Vaush did not make her any more or less transphobic.

[@dzonbrodi514]

@@hermitcrabof4144 yeah the wall of Vaushites defending their guru without understanding the criticism is rather wearing, though not as wearing as Vaush's lack of awareness

[@zephyr8072]

Rowling uses her wealth and influence to promote anti-trans rhetoric and misinformation. Just exactly how isn’t she an antagonist to trans people? Because she looks as glamorous as Contra wants to be? _Pathetic._

[@nicolailaude1891]

Hot take but I think the hatchet needs to be burried. The tweet about "women should be quieter" is done in poor taste, it didn't come off as ironic as you might think. And rather than defending that, I think there should be an apology and clarification. Additionally, i think what gets into people skin is that you don't really admit that you had a bad take and went into wanting them to agree with you (saying women need to be quieter, i can understand why they do not want to agree) then now, thinking that it is unreasonable for them to not like you. You can root it all out to that tweet and how you make light of it, when it did hurt other people who think you were their allies. I think it is wrong for Contra to discredit whatever you did but I do see where she is coming from. The bringing up of past addiction is petty, as well as calling for people to shame her, as much as her bringing this up a year later. It's all just petty fighting now.

[@worldmighty5381]

Nobody, not even Vaush, is defending the original “women be quiet challenge” tweet. Vaush has already gone over the entire situation in his original video, I suggest you watch it. He’s already apologized to the people who saw his tweet and thought he was being sincere, his contention is with the lefties who got upset with him for arguing with Kat Black. The clips of Vaush in Contra’s video were taken from FD Signifier’s stream and lack important context.

[@bumblebeeatbreadloaf1286]

Vaush doesn't actually care about trans people? That's maybe the dumbest accusation she could levy. Unbelievable how petty and bad faith Natalie is behaving.

[@deeplyconcerned9306]

No, I'm pretty sure she believes what she's saying, even if it's completely wrong. From her perspective, what Vaush tweeted was stupid, and him doubling down was also stupid. Because she likely believes Vaush to be an intelligent person, the only other explanation that makes sense to her is malignant indifference.

[@themavrandbrickashaw5511]

@@deeplyconcerned9306 Vaush can't deal with being wrong and doesn't know how to apologize. If he did we wouldn't be here 🤷

[@BlueTyphoon2017]

@@themavrandbrickashaw5511 but that’s not the point that was made in the comment. The comment points out Natalie aging Vaush “isn’t a good trans ally” when basically his entire channel is about defending trans rights, ESPECIALLY since late 2022 and 2023.

[@themavrandbrickashaw5511]

@@BlueTyphoon2017 Fair. I don't blame Contra for being fed up with him but I do think he supports trans people in general.

[@coffeeking9565]

@@themavrandbrickashaw5511 but is he wrong?? Jk really should shut up and start apologizing.