Controlling the soundstage

[@maxbouvatte]

Closing your eyes while listening can really expand the soundstage no joke

[@petekutheis3822]

funny but before I decluttered the room and got GIK treatments, the only stage I could perceive was if I stared at the top of the wall behind the speakers--where it meets the ceiling.

[@tedkay5272]

Yes!!!

[@airgunnersc9335]

To make speakers disappear would take a dedicated or music room which most of us do not have . For us it's luck and do the best we can. Thanks again for all the videos and great information.

[@Chrisspru]

i use a "hidden wall of sound" methode with multiple different bookshelf speakers and a sub. quite the frankenstein approach.

[@D1N02]

A lot depends on how the music was mixed. Some instruments only come from one speaker so they will always be in the speaker or behind it. My speakers are 3 to 3.5 meters apart depending on how you measure. Toed in just a bit to focus the center a bit better. I want that distance so I don't have to sit too far to the center of the room.

[@mattarmstrong6738]

yep this is what I said to myself. Once you get your hands on a good transparent pair of speakers the quality of the source becomes so important!

[@nathanjones4039]

No need to pitch it, ordered it and it comes next Tuesday! I bought new speakers and I’m always open to learning new ways to dial in my system.

[@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285]

No worries. Let me know if I can help.

[@saint6563]

1.4K views in a hour, 176K subscribers, congrats Paul on PS Audio's positive effect on our hobby. All the best!

[@bayard1332]

Rooms are imperfect reflectors and so what is described is how the location of said instrument moves because of mixing with either imperfectly balanced reflections (some frequencies reflected more than others) or the effect of differing levels of directionality from the drivers at various frequencies (very high frequency sounds often get more located to the tweeter's physical location). Yes, diffusers are often the preferred tool for balancing the room (after you've treated all the 1 bounce reflections spots.).

[@saint6563]

Addressing 1st reflections to improve detail & timbre at the 'sweet spot' and using diffusers to "make the speakers disappear" within the soundstage are not exactly addressing the same problem. Though both are obviously in the 'same ballpark'. Paul was attempting to solve an audio problem without hearing the system, not the best way to go about it. My guess is the speakers are too far apart, therefore the imaging is unstable. Enjoy.

[@mattarmstrong6738]

Yes! as others here are saying....the quality of the source is incredibly important especially once you have acquired some good speakers and equipment!!

[@Simple_Citoyen]

Funny how people need to advertise a car brand as a their logo. 😹

[@mattarmstrong6738]

@@Simple_Citoyen I love BMW's I have owned many throughout my life and I am a fan of how they drive. Why that would bother you is beyond me.

[@Simple_Citoyen]

@@mattarmstrong6738 Hey, if it makes you feel like an elite, more power to you.

[@mattarmstrong6738]

@@Simple_Citoyen Haha you really crack me up! Dude I owned old bmw's not porshes or ferraris LOL. also I have always done all of my own repairs and I race bmw's on the weekend its what Iove to do.

[@LuxAudio389]

Audiophile's guide with the CD is fantastic. For a dedicated room. For multipurpose rooms, more give and take.

[@nathanjones4039]

Good to hear. My guide and disc is set to come early next week.

[@constantin58]

One of the reasons i switched from 3 way speaker (Kef R3) to 2 way speaker (B&W 705 S2) is because of this same reason, vocals where in the center but very often percussion was not.

[@alexc2231]

Thanks for the great response as always! Talking about the 'toe-in' I don't think there are any content on the exact way to toe-in speakers. Like when we look at one speaker from the top, what / where is the axis as the center of the turning - is it the center of the front baffle, or the rear or simple the center of the speaker? Hope I'm expressing myself correctly....

[@geickmei]

Place the speakers 1/4 of the room width in from the side walls and out from the front wall. Toe them in 30 degrees. Pump up the rear output until the soundstage leaves the speakers and goes behind where it belongs. The corner secondary reflections will make it as wide as the front of the room and as deep as possible. Adjust the direct output for focus at your listening distance.

[@glenncurry3041]

It also depends on the speaker model. Not just room placements. Speakers with poor baffle design have edge reflections that can cause that. The original sound direct from the driver (often the tweeter) hits the ear before the sound that travels across the surface of the speaker mounting board and reflects out to the room when it hits a boundary like cabinet edge. That delayed reflection echo can get identified as a separate signal from that location. There was a review of the reintro'd KLH Model 5 that mentioned it sounding so different with and without the grill! It is old school sunken sound board and the distance from the tweeter to any edge changes when the grill which has reduced sized cutouts is added.

[@Chrisspru]

with some recordings i had a weird experience: i had a soundstage of a distant real stage, with my position being slightly above and to the left of the of the virtual band, like i was sitting in a back row of a theater, and i heared not only the musicians on the stage, but the virtual position of loudspeakers left and right of the virtual stage, which did not correspont to my speakers. i don't know if thats a win or loss soundstage wise. i get those "virtual speaker positions" on a few tracks, but not with an acompanying virtual stage in between. propper 3d soundstaging is more common though

[@mjot2360]

There is usually some music that will come from the speaker because of how instruments were recorded. Close to the mic to the left or right will sound like its coming from the speaker.

[@mbfishing769]

Setting up a great soundstage is well worth it. Also many recordings don't have a good soundstage, more true today than in the past, so be careful of that. Also note that small changes in speaker position can have a fairly big impact depending on your room.

[@OldTooly]

You really need to emphasize the fact that not all recordings can deliver the sound field you are describing. In fact a rather small percentage actually can do this. This is why I have gotten as many "proper" recordings as I can, regardless if I even like the music, to use a setup tools. So plug the 3 PSAudio audiophile CD's to this lad so he can see just how close he already is. Without good source material I really don't think you can get the sound stage, as well as a host of other parameters, anywhere near optimized.

[@zhongliu5624]

Hi Paul, take long time to setup your new speakers? You should buy a book called Audiophile's Guide!

[@Techthusiasm]

Really nice looking speakers. Very unique design language.

[@LuxAudio389]

Come to find that after setting up my Sopra No3's, this is also where I found myself with them.....Looking for acoustic panels and diffusers. Lol Their room is large, 18x20 with 12ft ceilings, but not as large as their sister's. I have Kantas No2's in our Family room that opens to the dining area, kitchen and etc. and most times I prefered them more until I got a VTL preamp. This changed their sound stage and etc tremendously for the better. I'm sure I "may" still need the aforementioned, but yeah, I have learned to live with the evil eye. So Paul, if you have some charitable diffusers and acoustic treatments laying around, I may need them buddy. 🧿😢 Then you can write your next best seller: The Audiophile's Guide to Living with Yourself and Saving Your Marriage. Include a CD and it maybe a serious read and comedy album in one👍👍 😀

[@HumourHomeTV]

This is great..now i know it better

[@IceThatJaw]

I have a 150in projection screen in between my towers that practically touches the floor, so I have to toe in severely. The towers are a few inches from the outer walls. I did pull them out from the front wall as far as I could though.

[@MrDingaling007]

Does it make sense to have diffusers on the front wall (behind the speakers)? As i understood it the frequencies you want to diffuse and can diffuse are more directional (not the bass frequencies). So would make sense for side walls, and the back wall?

[@edgarmisplaced7924]

PAUL, come on, let's HEAR them already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@stonefree1911]

I wanna hear those FR-30's !! That's a pretty fair amount of toe-in on those....

[@sonikninja]

Hey Paul! Where can I find the diffusers you’re using behind your speakers?

[@keywestjimmy]

For optimal sound, there is one and only ONE position and ONE toe-in direction. (Or possibly no acceptable position or direction) This is because: A speaker's in-phase and out-of-phase acoustic waves MUST reflect at precise locations in order to cohere at the listening position following the Haas Effect.

[@wa2368]

Gibberish!

[@jayrev1254]

Is there (generally) any benefit from or necessity for diffusion panels on the ceiling? In my room I have a portion of ceiling over the speakers that is a foot or so lower than the main ceiling. Thanks for the video!

[@FOH3663]

In that scenario, I'd implement thick, effective absorption. .. Ideally the entire area across the top... that will address both bass trapping, and absorption of reflected energy above speakers. It would yield a nice big improvement in sonics... your intuition is correct.

[@wouterkolkman]

Hey Paul, you mentioned before that you did not like spikes under the speakers - will they remain off? What do you think of speaker isolation feet such as Gaia? Thank you:-)

[@jamiermathlin]

very useful information on toe-in, thanks

[@Andrewatnanz]

Hey Paul, roughly what are the dimensions of the music room?

[@waltertomaszewski1083]

Where did you get those squat square stands?

[@artyfhartie2269]

I like to place my speakers on adjacent walls about 11 feet apart facing straight ahead and my listening and viewing position facing the inverted V where the walls meet. Splendido.

[@prodj.mixapeofficial6431]

What if you get individual speakers for every individual elements of the band or eq every individual speakers per element. Would that sound "soundstage"?

[@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285]

Exactly. That's not all that practical but as a mental exercise, it seems like that would work.

[@prodj.mixapeofficial6431]

@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 it's not practical of course, few tracks releases stem files. But if u want true sound stage, this is the way.

[@scruffy8861]

Paul, what do you think - just absorption on the wall behind the speakers and a combination of absorption and diffusion on the sidewalls?

[@bayard1332]

Diffusion on the 'front' wall is a most excellent thing. Both absorption and diffusion should be applied with care and precision via listening tests.

[@bobsmoot8454]

Using Paul’s method or even Wilson’s you are always limited by the width of the wall the speakers are on so if use the short wall in your room that your sound stage maximum width, at least that’s been my experience

[@AffordablePhotography]

Paul, I've enjoyed watching your videos. Not only are they educational, but they are also enjoyable to watch. I now know so much about your company, its products, and audio theory; but know so little about you. You seem to combine technical expertise, storytelling ability, and an incredible voice. What's your background? Are you some type of engineer? Do you have formal training in acting, teaching, or vocal presenting? I think most of your subscribers would love to see a video on your background - how did Paul become Paul????

[@steveodian6008]

He has a book “99 percent true” he tells you his life story. Pretty interesting. I enjoyed it.

[@hoobsgroove]

you're a good salesman Paul better than an engineer lol I'm curious where these speakers come close to other speakers we're find out eventually but a lot of hype going on here

[@AbsoluteFidelity]

Find out before you open your gap.

[@hoobsgroove]

@@AbsoluteFidelity what the f-ing you going on about?? don't you mean gob lol what a d...

[@NoEgg4u]

Is the detection of the speakers from all recordings, or just some recordings? Sub-par recordings (of which there is no shortage) will not make you speakers disappear. So what is Dan playing? Also, knowing the make-up of his stereo's components would be helpful. Not all gear will feed a good soundstage signal to your speakers -- and revealing speakers will reveal the issues with your components.

[@roundearthshill248]

Most recordings have the singer mixed dead center. Even modern pop songs are mixed this way. I cannot hear the singer come from any speaker in particular on most songs. It comes from the center of the room. The problem with a lot of modern pop songs is the soundstage is either center, far left or far right. Not much going on in between the speakers or just outside the speakers.

[@wdc7582]

Why are those spikes on the floor in so many of your vids lately?

[@austinlibby7025]

Your opinion my opinion poll has a great set of ears it take that to the bank he knows with the tremor the sound your look that represents best alive performance and he achieves 85% of that with his systems properly set up you have to have an ear and know what an instrument sounds like in real time he has that year I think I do too many of us do some of us still have to learn what to listen for and what a violin should sound like it does sound like in reality piano etc.

[@Lucian-M.M.]

I set up my audition place in a room almost square (about 4x4 metres). The question is: could some thick curtains have effect as diffusers, as behind the speakers I have a window and a glass door? Thanks for the answers!

[@D1N02]

Curtains work more as dampers than diffusers.

[@Lucian-M.M.]

@@D1N02 ok. And would be my idea any good or shall I find another solution?

[@D1N02]

@@Lucian-M.M. Anything is better than glass. A combination of curtains and diffusers would be best.

[@Lucian-M.M.]

@@D1N02 thank you for your answers. Thought to put some diffusers on the side walls, in the reflection points.

[@remic2902]

I love those moments when you say "I’m not trying to sell you my products", then after a second or two "Well, of course I am !!!" 😂 I just love your videos. And your book Paul. Thank you.

[@josephvanalstyne4049]

you need recordings that are RECORDED out of phase. kind of a dipole effect. check out early esp label jazz recordings you will be amazed at the sound your hearing. most standard rock ,pop, hip hop will not give you that extreme effect.

[@normrubio]

Golden Ear and Sandy recommend toe-in on the Tritons

[@DavidSmith-py8zi]

Also spaced far apart. I have Triton 7’s and get great ss and imaging.

[@endrizo]

what is that trash on the floor.?? .. showed in several videos

[@NalinKhurb]

Lmao they are the speaker feet

[@stimpy1226]

Paul, is it possible to increase the soundstage beyond the outside edges of my Maggies without the corner room diffusers since I have no space for them in my listening room? My listening room is13’ wide and the outer edges of the speakers are each a bit over 4’ from their respective side walls.

[@hoobsgroove]

they like to be against the sidewalls pointing in ideally in front of you arm's-length, and you need absorption panels behind the speakers.. adjustable from the side wall to the speaker in a arc

[@glenncurry3041]

I get it with my 1.7i and as Paul says perhaps more noticeably when they are closer together. And of course the sources has it. That is why I laugh when people say Maggies don't image, with depth. I love watching face time with my eyes closed and seeing Willie Nelsen sitting on a high stool singing Red Headed Stranger! Or pointing at instruments with my eyes closed and seeing where they are relative to the speakers when I open them. I always get a kick out of pointing outside of where the speakers actually are! But placement is extremely critical. A couple degrees of twist, a few inches forward or backwards with one. If the stage sounds too low to the ground, I can change the height of the stage by a slight twist inward. And my room is a sonic nightmare with no treatment and plenty of reasons it needs it!

[@stimpy1226]

@@glenncurry3041 i’ve owned my speakers for over 20 years now and they are about 6 foot apart center to center. I get a great sound stage I just don’t get it much past the outside edges and I have used Paul’s set up guide to get an even better three-dimensional image but not anything that’s holographic. They are also 5 foot from the front wall so I believe I have them set up in the approximate best place for this listening room without adding additional room treatment because this room is loaded with record albums, books, soft couch and listening chair and a large area rug. I have 3.6 R’s and some very high-quality equipment in my system. My system is very musical, very detailed, sounds tonally beautiful, highly accurate and project a very good soundstage just not far beyond the outside edges. How far does your soundstage go beyond the outer edges of your Maggies?

[@glenncurry3041]

@@stimpy1226 Again VERY source dependent! It's more of "WOW! This one really has it!" I am trying to think of an example. But I am thinking Little Feat on their "Waiting for Columbus" album had it recently. I have the dual edged sword of having to move them in and out of storage locations flanking the TV when I am going to listen seriously. Or they block doors to rooms. As the wife won't let me draw on the new carpets, I have to guess and adjust for a little whole each time. This makes it convenient to keep trying different setups. But I've narrowed it down to a couple basic spots and then needed tweaks. And I find literally a few degrees of twist, inches of movement, make a difference. But when it hits, it's like opening a window and things lock in and expand. Going by degrees, because distance is relative, maybe 6-10 degrees of extra width from the sitting location?

[@Canadian_Eh_I]

THe reason toe in doesnt work on those speakers is likely due to an uneven polar response ala the work of Earl Geddes

[@endrizo]

hi. are you going to sound those speakers? come on Paul press play.

[@ZaklanaCeljadd]

FR30 design, months with Canadian designers, and at the end of those months they said f it, lets just copy Kii Three BXT design and slap neo 10 and neo 3 chinese copy for mid and high to be different enough to ask such a rediculous price. Jesus...

[@gtric1466]

Just enough toe -in to lock in center image then stop.

[@finscreenname]

IDK, I've listened to some nice stuff over the years and could always figure where the sound was coming from even from an acoustical show.

[@worldsyoursent.1635]

💪💪💪🙌🙏

[@robertbyington7715]

Why not fire those bad boys up so we can experience what you already know!!!!

[@DuSeun]

....recorded through a single microphone, which you then hear on a compressed KZbin video through your own speakers which already have their own soundstage. See how that wouldn't work?

[@robertbyington7715]

@@DuSeun THANK U

[@hugobloemers4425]

You have got these great looking speakers and the ugly diffusers make them disappear. The problem is that I am talking about them visually disappearing but I don't think that's what Paul means by making your speakers disappear.

[@_944audiophile]

Play some music already!